YOU CAN’T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU WANT

One of the things we know for sure is the Edmonton Oilers will be making calls to Oklahoma City for reinforcements. Last season alone, 43 men played for the Edmonton Oilers and of that group, 17 also played for the Barons. The Barons, as they currently stand, are a damn impressive minor league team.

  1. G Richard Bachman—Quality AHL goalie and a capable callup. Possible callup
  2. G Laurent Brossoit—Enters the season as ‘goalie of the future’ for Edmonton. Will he have that distinction a year from now?
  3. D Martin Marincin—A lock for callup, unless they trade him.
  4. D Keith Aulie—He was poor in TC, but if he recovers he’s a strong call-up candidate.
  5. D David Musil—Stayed longer than many of the AHL defenders, could get a cup of coffee this season.
  6. D Dillon Simpson—Impressed in camp, keeps matriculating.
  7. D Jordan Oesterle—Had a quality TC and may pass some draft picks.
  8. D Martin Gernat—The Oilers are giving him some tough love, it’ll be interesting to see how he reacts.
  9. D Brandon Davidson—If it weren’t for bad luck he’d had no luck at all. Still cheering for him.
  10. C Anton Lander—He has to be fuming, I don’t think he’s long for the organization at this point.
  11. C Bogdan Yakimov—He’s in OKC until ready, but Yakimov passed most of the C depth chart this fall. Seriously.
  12. C Jujhar Khaira—Marched in lock step with Yakiomov. MacT must be thrilled with these two guys.
  13. C Travis Ewanyk—Passed like a house on the side of the road. Not fair, Mcgee.
  14. L Ryan Hamilton—Injury obscured his presence, but he’s still in the recall mix.
  15. L Curtis Hamilton—Last chance Texaco for him in the organization, I’m mildly optimistic.
  16. L Iiro Pakarinen—I liked him and then he was gone. Might get to see him again this winter.
  17. L Mitch Moroz—He’ll get a chance in the AHL, if he flourishes there maybe he gets a cup of coffee.
  18. L Kale Kessy—Man he impressed this camp with his speed. No idea what he does.
  19. R Tyler Pitlick—I think he had a great camp. Keep it going Pitlick!
  20. R Steve Pinizzotto—This is a guy I think we see for sure in Edmonton.
  21. R Andrew Miller—No idea what will happen for him this season.
  22. R Matt Ford—Minor league winger
  23. R Mitch Holmberg—Hope for the best!

I think we see Bachman, Marincin, Aulie, Lander, Pitlick and Pinizzotto for sure this season in the NHL. After that, we’ll see who performs.

written by

The author didn‘t add any Information to his profile yet.
Related Posts

90 Responses to "YOU CAN’T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU WANT"

  1. nycoil says:

    Did you see the OKC clip on the Oilers’ website, LT? Marincin looked a little bummed, but said the right things: i.e., OKC feels like home so it’s nice, but he’ll work to get back to Edmonton.

  2. Lowetide says:

    NYC Oil: No I hadn’t, not surprised though he’s still in the formative stages of his career. I’m not as upset as many, but do believe this is exactly the kind of thing the Oilers talk themselves into all the time.

  3. supernova says:

    Why do you say Lander is pissed?

    He hasn’t earned a thing

  4. nycoil says:

    Short clip, so will post it here for those who want to see.
    http://video.oilers.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=4&id=637651

  5. blainer says:

    That is one impressive minor league team. I expect a strong start down there that will hopefully keep a few of the regulars like Joensu on their game. There will be some serious push from OKC for the fringe players on this team especially on D.

  6. nycoil says:

    And for a little bit more humour on a Monday.
    http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11630640

    I laughed at Taylor Hall’s choice, but Patrick Kane takes the cake on this one.

  7. Marcus Oilerius says:

    Stauffer addressed Marincin at length today, he pretty much had the same reaction as here.

    Of note was Pinizzotto apparently being quite pissed over the demotion. Bob confirmed that and I get the feeling that he was mostly mad at getting passed by in favor of Acton. Stauffer himself said that he expected even if Acton scored 4 goals in the final game, he still wasn’t making the roster – Pitlick and Pinizzotto were too far ahead.

  8. hunter1909 says:

    Life often sucks when you’re a spear carrier.

  9. wunderbar says:

    Marcus Oilerius,

    Yea I don’t often listen to Stauffer’s show but was interested to hear what he had to say today. While he was measured, as he always is since he works for the team, I don’t recall that many times where he was that openly confused about a roster move like that.

    This is a guy who is literally inside the organization, isn’t afraid to say that he always knows more than he’s letting on (because lets face it, he does), and loves to tell the fan base how smart he is, and even he sounded truly surprised on the radio this afternoon. That caught my attention.

  10. Marcus Oilerius says:

    wunderbar,

    I don’t listen to him (I rarely get to enjoy radio), but it struck me that he was almost on the verge of criticizing the team.

  11. Zeabs93 says:

    Long time reader, first time commenter here. Absolutely love your site Lowetide, I’m on it multiple times a day. Thanks so much for the great content you put out every day, you are by far the best Oilers site on the web!

    Was incredibly confused about Marincin’s demotion. I assumed he was penciled in the top 6 in ink, taking into account his outstanding 44 games last year.

    It’ll be interesting to see which side he plays during his limited time in OKC. With two excellent prospects Klefbom and Nurse already on the left side, maybe MacT is getting Nelson to convert him to a RD. If Marincin can pull it off, it would be absolutely massive for the organization.

  12. nycoil says:

    I responded to you, Freeeedom, in the other thread, but since that one may die…

    The double standard exists in that players of a high draft position are given every chance to fail while players that don’t have that same “pedigree” are scrutinized much more for perceived warts.
    Hall, Eberle, Nuge, Schultz, Draisaitl are held to one standard.
    Yak is held to another (this isn’t about draft position with him so much)
    Nurse and Klefbom are held to one standard, Marincin another.
    The latest evidence for this comes from MacT’s comments about Nurse in this camp. If you watch portion of the video where he discusses Nurse again, maybe you will see the passages I am talking about.
    1. 2:00 mark: “At what point do we get Darnell his games because I think we can all agree he is just going to get better and better.” Fair, does that mean Marincin isn’t and shouldn’t be given opportunities to get better and better, too?
    2. 2;45 mark: “It’s the 3rd year of his entry level deal. It’s the last year we have the flexibility to try a couple of different players.” So, this speaks to it not being a question of Marincin’s ability, but instead his contract status.
    3. 4:55 mark: “Coming into camp, he’d have to play himself out of this opportunity and in my mind he hasn’t done that.” MacT on Nurse (The 9 game job is his to lose as opposed to his to win–it was preordained unless he screwed it up).
    4. 5:35 mark: ” But generally with guys like that of high pedigree you want to play them to the point of failure.” MacT on Draisiatl and Nurse.
    From the horse’s mouth.

  13. Ben says:

    Welp, here’s hoping MacT can add depth at C by packaging Marincin in a “McDonagh for Gomez” type deal. Those usually work out ok.

  14. A'bunadh says:

    nycoil,

    Totally agree. There was constant verbage from Eakins about Draisaitl “winning” the job and Klefbom “winning” the job but if you look at how their competition was set up to fail in comparison that verbage is nothing more than lip service. The organization seems ok devaluing prospects that don’t have that high end pedigree so their prospects that do can “succeed”.

  15. Orion says:

    I posted this on the previous thread, but I’m not sure if it’s still going or not.

    David Staples wrote an article today, supporting the Oilers’ decision to send Marincin down:

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/edmonton-oilers/Cult+Hockey+Edmonton+Oilers+coach/10267765/story.html

    I guess he’s not a big fan of using Corsi to evaluate players, which is pretty debatable, but one other thing he said was this:

    ‘Also, when you look at a more precise individual stat — Klefbom’s and Marincin’s actual contributions to scoring chances last season as compared to the mistakes they individually made on scoring chances against — Klefbom came out slightly ahead of Marincin.’

    Is this an official stat that’s kept track of? I don’t see many posters referring to it. Curious to know what other people have to say about this.

  16. Lowetide says:

    Zeabs93:
    Long time reader, first time commenter here.Absolutely love your site Lowetide, I’m on it multiple times a day.Thanks so much for the great content you put out every day, you are by far the best Oilers site on the web!

    Was incredibly confused about Marincin’s demotion.I assumed he was penciled in the top 6 in ink, taking into account his outstanding 44 games last year.

    It’ll be interesting to see which side he plays during his limited time in OKC.With two excellent prospects Klefbom and Nurse already on the left side, maybe MacT is getting Nelson to convert him to a RD.If Marincin can pull it off, it would be absolutely massive for the organization.

    Welcome! The LH RH item is a really big deal among the prospects, but the Oilers whould be okay at the NHL level with Schultz, Petry and Fayne. However, since all of us assume Petry’s leaving then you’re right, someone is going to have to play RH side.

    Since Nurse, Klefbom and Marincin are all lefties, it helps MM if he can do both. I think Klefbom already does iirc.

  17. Younger Oil says:

    nycoil,

    Great analysis. It shows absolutely no interest in icing the best hockey team possible, which after 8 years out of the playoffs is completely inexcusable.

    For now, I’m willing to give MacT the benefit of the doubt, but if the Oilers get off to a poor start, and are noticeably better once Marincin is called back up, then there will be hell to pay.

  18. wunderbar says:

    Orion,

    The fact that he doesn’t believe in corsi but does believe in marking “scoring chances” tells you all you need to know about Staples.

  19. fifthcartel says:

    I was curious to see if Stauffer said anything interesting about Marincin so I listened to most of Oilers Now and he said one thing which did not sound too encouraging — it was when some caller asked if Marincin could net Couturier or Schenn from Philly and he said no, but also said in a month or so he thinks Marincin could return an overpaid 2nd/3rd line center from a team close to the cap.

  20. jp says:

    Orion:

    Is this an official stat that’s kept track of? I don’t see many posters referring to it.Curious to know what other people have to say about this.

    This isn’t an official stat, and is compiled by Staples alone I believe. The numbers are “contributions” to scoring chances for, and “mistakes” on scoring chances against. So aside from the potential for personal bias, they aren’t an equal for/against count of anything.

    For instance, if Marincin uses his active stick to break up a rush, that’s not reflected in Staple’s number, but if Marincin whiff’s on a clearing attempt it’s a -1. Basically most of the positive things a defenseman does (that don’t directly contribute to a scoring chance for) are ignored, and the focus is placed on actual mistakes. And again, this is completely aside from the bias that is likely present.

    Staple’s attack on corsi is a whole other thing. Really unfortunate and difficult to read from my point of view. It’s awfully sad that he has access to a forum to widely promote his ideas, and even be considered an “expert”. He’s flat out wrong imo.

  21. Woodguy says:

    D Martin Marincin—A lock for callup, unless they trade him.

    Now you’re just trying to hurt me.

  22. Woodguy says:

    jp: This isn’t an official stat, and is compiled by Staples alone I believe. The numbers are “contributions” to scoring chances for, and “mistakes” on scoring chances against. So aside from the potential for personal bias, they aren’t an equal for/against count of anything.

    For instance, if Marincin uses his active stick to break up a rush, that’s not reflected in Staple’s number, but if Marincin whiff’s on a clearing attempt it’s a -1. Basically most of the positive things a defenseman does (that don’t directly contribute to a scoring chance for) are ignored, and the focus is placed on actual mistakes. And again, this is completely aside from the bias that is likely present.

    Staple’s attack on corsi is a whole other thing. Really unfortunate and difficult to read from my point of view. It’s awfully sad that he has access to a forum to widely promote his ideas, and even be considered an “expert”. He’s flat out wrong imo.

    I agree with your take on Staple’s numbers.

    He ignores entirely how the puck got to the ozone/dzone.

    In his world it must just drop out of the sky onto someone’s stick.

    The entire elapsed time of what he looks at is about 5% of a hockey game.

    Other 95% must just not matter.

  23. Ryan says:

    Orion,

    I think there’s a multitude of issues with Staples’s scoring chance data. To start with it’s somewhat subjective and susceptible to bias in terms of how it’s recorded. What’s more is that there is no league-wide data available. This aspect alone renders the data nearly useless since you can’t money puck with data that does not exist.

    Other issues with the data is that it can’t be adjusted for zone starts, QOT, or QOC. This is a huge problem alone since a player fed a diet of soft comp and offensive zone starts will look better than players who face top competition /tougher zone starts.

    Other issues is that players who don’t touch the puck much are more likely to fly under the radar on his system vs dynamic players like Hall who have lots of touches and are consequently more likely to make Staples errors.

    Other than that, the data samples for players errors are much smaller than shot data. Small sample size of data is problematic.

  24. Freëəəəəədom 95 says:

    Can’t believe I didn’t adorn 2009 with two spent bullets on the first pass. Maybe secretly I think there’s hope for Lander yet. There is a one-dot e in Unicode (ĖėẸẹ), but that’s a bit unkind to MPS.

  25. Woodguy says:

    jp,

    Staple’s attack on corsi is a whole other thing. Really unfortunate and difficult to read from my point of view. It’s awfully sad that he has access to a forum to widely promote his ideas, and even be considered an “expert”. He’s flat out wrong imo.

    If you’re on twitter go have a look for multiple exchanges/threads between him and Mike Parkatti, Colby Cosh and others on Oct 1st.

    It was hard to read.

    Colby sums it up pretty much here:

    ‏@colbycosh
    @dstaples @mparkatti “A trained statistician would agree with me!” [is immediately contradicted by one] “Aah, shove yer fancy degrees!”

  26. jp says:

    Woodguy:
    D Martin Marincin—A lock for callup, unless they trade him.

    Now you’re just trying to hurt me.

    This one’s going to haunt us for a long time. Me anyway.

    Honestly my best case scenario is they actually get fair value for him. I doubt they do. Maybe they do keep him long term, but it doesn’t look good. They just don’t seem to value he or Petry. So hard to comprehend.

  27. Orion says:

    wunderbar,

    jp,

    Woodguy,

    Ryan,

    Thanks for the replies. I wondered if it was his own assessment.

  28. jp says:

    Woodguy:
    jp,

    Staple’s attack on corsi is a whole other thing. Really unfortunate and difficult to read from my point of view. It’s awfully sad that he has access to a forum to widely promote his ideas, and even be considered an “expert”. He’s flat out wrong imo.

    If you’re on twitter go have a look for multiple exchanges/threads between him and Mike Parkatti, Colby Cosh and others on Oct 1st.

    It was hard to read.

    Colby sums it up pretty much here:

    ‏@colbycosh
    @dstaples @mparkatti “A trained statistician would agree with me!” [is immediately contradicted by one] “Aah, shove yer fancy degrees!”

    Yeah, it’s fairly clear he’s not hearing anyone. And it seems obvious that his argument against corsi was constructed retrospectively in an attempt to support his opinion. While elements of what he said are correct, he clearly doesn’t “get it”. Of course he’s not alone in that. Eakins seems capable of listening at least.

  29. steveb12344 says:

    Staples system of tracking scoring chances was developed and used by Roger Neilson. There should be no doubt that he knew a thing or two about hockey.

    I don’t have the time to get into this argument again, but I will say that using individual Corsi numbers to track a players effectiveness is,while somewhat useful, crude at best.

    Someday in the near future they are going to come up with a much better way to track possession on the team level, and individual level. At that point you will all be looking back at Corsi and laughing about how that used to be the best way to do it. You can book that!

  30. "Frank The Dog" says:

    You’re all behaving as if the Oil are never going to have any injuries, none of the players up there will slump, and Petry wont be traded.

    Our D: Nikitin / Fayne / Petry/ Klefbom / Schultz / Nurse / Ference / Hunt.

    NN comes back, who goes?
    Then who goes next so MM can come up?

    We’ll all find out soon enough!

  31. shiraz says:

    Great track ” You can’t always get what you want” … from of course “Let It Bleed ” preceded by “Beggars Banquet” … somewhat apt for the modern day Oil …and Kevin Costner 1983 in the “Big Chill”
    soon to be relived circa the 1984 “Mighty OIL’ in the days to come … as per Rolling Stone Magazine…

    “reach for reality and end up confronting it, almost mastering what’s real, or what reality will feel like as the years fade in”

  32. Ryan says:

    Orion,

    I think part of Staples’ problem is that he’s stuck on the question as to whether or not an individual player has a Corsi.

    A Nobel prize winning physicist was once asked whether he thought physics was more challenging than economics. His reply was, “imagine if particles could think.”

    I think that’s why one of the pioneers of hockey analytics is working as a financial analyst.

    It’s not such a concrete thinker’s question of whether or not individuals players have a Corsi rating, rather that Corsi numbers can be viewed in the correct context as a signal to determine poor players from superior ones.

  33. wheatnoil says:

    Corsi is not a perfect stat and Staples does make a few legitimate points about its shortcomings. The problems with his arguments are many, but I’ll point out three of them.

    1) His arguments against WOWY border on absurd. There are many problems with WOWY but his arguments are really reaching for straws.

    2) This the most important… Almost every argument Staples makes against corsi also applies to his Neilson numbers, which he seems to completely discount.

    3) Neilson numbers actually correlate well with corsi most of the time, so there’s little new info to be gleaned from it. There are areas of departure, just as scoring chance and corsi data sometimes depart. However, over time scoring chances and corsi tend to converge and they tend to converge closer to the corsi numbers. I suspect Neilson numbers to be the same. The larger sample size usually wins out.

    This is not to say there isn’t some significant flaws in using corsi as a primary analytic measure, even when using corsi within its context. I also think there is some value in Neilson Numbers. However I think corsi is ultimately much more useful than the Neilson Numbers.

  34. Pretendergast says:

    speaking of can’t always get what you want, tkachev 7 points 2 games, his season will be fun to watch.

    http://theqmjhl.ca/stats/show/type/top_scorers/ls_season/178/first/60

  35. Kmart99 says:

    Ryan:
    Orion,

    I think there’s a multitude of issues with Staples’s scoring chance data.To start with it’s somewhat subjective and susceptible to bias in terms of how it’s recorded. What’s more is that there is no league-wide data available.This aspect alone renders the data nearly useless since you can’t money puck with data that does not exist.

    Other issues with the data is that it can’t be adjusted for zone starts, QOT, or QOC.This is a huge problem alone since a player fed a diet of soft comp and offensive zone starts will look better than players who face top competition /tougher zone starts.

    Other issues is that players who don’t touch the puck much are more likely to fly under the radar on his system vs dynamic players like Hall who have lots of touches and are consequently more likely to make Staples errors.

    Other than that, the data samples for players errors are much smaller than shot data.Small sample size of data is problematic.

    What I don’t understand about Staples’ view is that… if the team seems to always out shoot the opposition more so with one player than it does without that player (REGARDLESS OF SAID PLAYER’S LINEMATES) is it not obvious that something that player is doing is helping keep the play in the offensive zone? AS AN INDIVIDUAL? Sure the corsi belongs to all five players on the ice at any given time, but if it is always higher when a particular player is on the ice regardless of the other 4 players with him, then bam…. right? Am I crazy?

    For me the only thing with corsi that bugs me is that it assumes in the long run a team that consistently outshoots the opposition will also outchance them…. Scoring chances/neilson numbers don’t always line up with corsi, even in the long run.. I THINK. I don’t have any data to back this up, but certain teams like toronto can get outshot all year long, season after season, but still outchance and outscore the opposition if they’re so damn talented that they don’t need that many opportunities to score.

    I can recall playing midget and being great at cycling and generating shots, but I was crap at finishing and the top guys on my team for 2 seasons would always score the most despite getting way fewer shots than me… that’s just talent and ability.

  36. RexLibris says:

    Woodguy: I agree with your take on Staple’s numbers.

    He ignores entirely how the puck got to the ozone/dzone.

    In his world it must just drop out of the sky onto someone’s stick.

    The entire elapsed time of what he looks at is about 5% of a hockey game.

    Other 95% must just not matter.

    I think Staples is trying to build a data set using scoring chances as something on top of or superior to straight Corsi, similar to Fenwick.

    As mentioned though, the personal bias for data collection makes his “scoring chances” as prone to error of interpretation as “hits” are subjective to the rink in which they were tallied.

    I applaud the effort, but I think it is ultimately misguided.

  37. Lois Lowe says:

    RexLibris,

    Thank you for saying what I attempted to say without adding the ad hominem.

  38. RexLibris says:

    Ryan:
    Orion,

    I think part of Staples’ problem is that he’s stuck on the question as to whether or not an individual player has a Corsi.

    A Nobel prize winning physicist was once asked whether he thought physics was more challenging than economics.His reply was, “imagine if particles could think.”

    I think that’s why one of the pioneers of hockey analytics is working as a financial analyst.

    It’s not such a concrete thinker’s question of whether or not individuals players have a Corsi rating, rather that Corsi numbers can be viewed in the correct context as a signal to determine poor players from superior ones.

    I have never perceived Corsi as a number attached to a person such that the sentence “He has a 48 Corsi”. It seems kind of video-game-ish in conception. Players impact the game in certain situations such that that impact can be reflected by a Corsi rating.

    Not saying you do, just that you raised a concept that I hadn’t spent much time thinking about.

    Its like saying Jacob is a 74% student rather than Jacob’s overall marks average to 74%. The former just doesn’t make any sense logically in that the sum total of the person cannot be identified with a single numerical standard because there are simply too many factors. Beliefs that one can be reduced to a single number are usually false or limited in scope (I apologize to any actuaries who may be in attendance).

    Failure to recognize this is one of the major stumbling blocks to understanding and appreciating a player’s ability as reflected in advanced analytics.

    Even goaltending, the black-magic voodoo of the hockey world uses two statistical categories to help define a player’s ability and I’m convinced that GMs have a third category they rely on depending on the franchise to weigh a player’s value in this regard and determine if that player is “clutch” or not.

    If a friend came to me and said “what’s this guy’s Corsi”, I’d probably respond with “depends. What year? On what team? In what situations? What is it you ultimately want to know about the player before I provide statistical data to help you determine an answer?”

    Friends I have tend to be patient.

  39. Hammers says:

    jp: This one’s going to haunt us for a long time. Me anyway.Honestly my best case scenario is they actually get fair value for him. I doubt they do. Maybe they do keep him long term, but it doesn’t look good. They just don’t seem to value he or Petry. So hard to comprehend.

    Yes and so many agree with what your saying re Woodguy’s point . McT , Howson , Eakins & staff are all proffesionals but all have been fired within this industry . They all have personell they believe in , Acton played for Eakins , Hunt for McT in Chicago , Howson obviously recomended Nikitin so bias maybe part of any final decisions even though in many ways they contradict themselves . Truth is that most G.M’s & coaches do the same thing and sometimes that’s what leads to being fired . Fans are not proffesionals but look at players wanting the best team to win . Thats why so many of us get pissed off .We have no built in bias.

  40. RexLibris says:

    Lois Lowe:
    RexLibris,

    Thank you for saying what I attempted to say without adding the ad hominem.

    I write for FN and daily deal with things like this: “Can’t believe people think we’re finishing behind that dumpster fire in Edmonton. Their best d-man would be bottom six in Calgary.”

    I’m a patient guy, but I have learned so much about being a fan from my experiences there. I relish the opportunity to contribute on that site because of some of the very good writers who also contribute and the tenacity and passion of the fans who comment.

    It keeps me on my toes, forces me to try and be as non-partisan as I can be when a Flames fan slags the Oilers, and helps me put many of my experiences cheering for this team in perspective.

    One thing that I am constantly reminded of is how far I have to go to be the kind of fan, and frankly person, I’d like to be.

  41. Doomoil says:

    Maybe if Staples didn’t act like a thin skinned child he could have an actual discussion instead of lying and saying he is.

    My personal opinion is that he’s a hack writer and I don’t care one way or the other about anything he writes.

  42. "Steve" For Real, Let's Undulate "Smith" says:

    RexLibris: “Their best d-man would be bottom six in Calgary.”

    Bottom six of which set? The set of defencemen who dress for any given game? Because if so, that’s probably a fair comment.

  43. RexLibris says:

    steveb12344:
    Staples system of tracking scoring chances was developed and used by Roger Neilson.There should be no doubt that he knew a thing or two about hockey.

    I don’t have the time to get into this argument again, but I will say that using individual Corsi numbers to track a players effectiveness is,while somewhat useful, crude at best.

    Someday in the near future they are going to come up with a much better way to track possession on the team level, and individual level.At that point you will all be looking back at Corsi and laughing about how that used to be the best way to do it.You can book that!

    True.

    I watched a guy turn a beautiful piece of maple into a goblet-style cup one time using a lathe and chisel.

    If It had been me, five minutes and I could have starred as a cautionary tale in one of those 50s Industrial Arts educational films.

    It isn’t the theory behind the data that is concerning, it is the art of the practitioner collecting it.

  44. RexLibris says:

    “Steve” For Real, Let’s Undulate “Smith”: Bottom six of which set?The set of defencemen who dress for any given game?Because if so, that’s probably a fair comment.

    My response was that the Oilres’ best defenseman could be considered to be either Jeff Petry or Mark Fayne and either one would slide in very well behind Brodie and Giordano and well ahead of Wideman, Russell, Smid, Engelland or Diaz.

  45. RexLibris says:

    BTW, going to Montreal this weekend.

    Should I wear a Rangers McDonagh jersey when I’m out sight-seeing?

    http://www.tsn.ca/blueliner-mcdonagh-named-rangers-captain-1.100908

    Seriously, though. Aside from the Basilica and Museum of Fine Art, any recommendations? Money is an object here.

  46. "Steve" For Real, Let's Undulate "Smith" says:

    RexLibris: My response was that the Oilres’ best defenseman could be considered to be either Jeff Petry or Mark Fayne and either one would slide in very well behind Brodie and Giordano and well ahead of Wideman, Russell, Smid, Engelland or Diaz.

    Almost certainly true; my point was just that “bottom six” is a very peculiar term with which to describe a defenceman.

  47. Malbec says:

    “Steve” For Real, Let’s Undulate “Smith”: Almost certainly true; my point was just that “bottom six” is a very peculiar term with which to describe a defenceman.

    Everyone south of Gio, it would seem, if they carry more than 6.

  48. "Steve" For Real, Let's Undulate "Smith" says:

    RexLibris:
    BTW, going to Montreal this weekend.

    Should I wear a Rangers McDonagh jersey when I’m out sight-seeing?

    http://www.tsn.ca/blueliner-mcdonagh-named-rangers-captain-1.100908

    Seriously, though. Aside from the Basilica and Museum of Fine Art, any recommendations? Money is an object here.

    The Biodome is fun, as is the insectarium. If you’re into that sort of thing, there are some very good botanical gardens right next door to it. Also, whatever kind of cultural activity you’re interested in (theatre, music of various sorts, visual arts, stand up comedy, etc.) will have something good happening while you’re there, so you should look into that (though that might be where money becomes an object).

    I don’t know where you live, but if it’s Edmonton or Calgary or some place, you should make a point of walking around Montreal a whole bunch (particularly St. Denis, St. Catherines, and the like). We in the world’s newest cities don’t fully appreciate how much of a real city’s character can only be taken in on foot. If you’re from New York or some other proper city (N.B. this does not include Toronto or Vancouver), or have much experience travelling to such places, you already know this.

    I should be able to think of some other recommendations, because I’ve spent a fair bit of time in Montreal, but for some reason I can’t right now. Alone among major Canadian cities, Montreal is its own best tourist attraction (again, like New York and most European metropolises).

  49. OilFire says:

    As much as I enjoyed the first 10% of the repetitive moaning about MM and some article on another site, I want to turn my mouse-sized brain to thoughts of the next games. Anybody have info from practice what the pairings have been in practice since the cuts?

    Sounded from the comments like Petry and Ference have a pretty good chance of being back for game one? If so, I’m guessing the pairings are:

    Petry Fayne
    Klefbom Schultz
    Nurse Ference

    They seem to like Klefbom and Shultz as a pair, and they usually team up Ference with rookies, so is this where we’re at? Lots of people on their opposite sides, but I think it might fall this way. Next likeliest alternative is swapping Ference and Petry, and I’m not sure what’s worse: having Petry manning the port side or having Ference getting the tough conditions that Fayne will called on for.

    If both aren’t back for game one, well, … god help us all.

  50. "Steve" For Real, Let's Undulate "Smith" says:

    OilFire:
    As much as I enjoyed the first 10% of the repetitive moaning about MM and some article on another site, I want to turn my mouse-sized brain to thoughts of the next games. Anybody have info from practice what the pairings have been in practice since the cuts?

    From what I understand, it’s been as follows:

    Not Marincin-Not Marincin
    Not Marincin-Not Marincin
    Not Marincin-Not Marincin

  51. OilFire says:

    RexLibris:
    BTW, going to Montreal this weekend.

    Should I wear a Rangers McDonagh jersey when I’m out sight-seeing?

    http://www.tsn.ca/blueliner-mcdonagh-named-rangers-captain-1.100908

    Seriously, though. Aside from the Basilica and Museum of Fine Art, any recommendations? Money is an object here.

    Well, you could see the fattest, fattest, fattest racoons at the lookout on the “mountain.” They’re so fat, they look like cartoon teddy bears.

  52. OilFire says:

    “Steve” For Real, Let’s Undulate “Smith”: From what I understand, it’s been as follows:

    Not Marincin-Not Marincin
    Not Marincin-Not Marincin
    Not Marincin-Not Marincin

    pfffft. They were right to cut him, Marincin was bottom six on the defence corp all training camp and last year.

  53. Malbec says:

    RexLibris: BTW, going to Montreal this weekend.

    After overcoming my hate for you, I’ll eventually wish you a fond vacay. I think a Habs McD jersey would be best. What a trade.

    So Schwartz’s deli for smoked meat, and there’s a wicked Jewish bagel place near there too. Never had a bagel with that rich texture, and they’re always extremely fresh. 24 hour place, I believe. They’re even great after a week in a bag.

    Oh, and there’s a garden restaurant in the old section of Montreal that is very nice. Great ambiance, but I don’t remember the food, which probably means it’s okay.

    Then there’s a hotel with a rooftop pool, where all the dancers go during the day. Darned heck if I can remember the name of it though.

  54. Hammers says:

    RexLibris: My response was that the Oilres’ best defenseman could be considered to be either Jeff Petry or Mark Fayne and either one would slide in very well behind Brodie and Giordano and well ahead of Wideman, Russell, Smid, Engelland or Diaz.

    Your probably right but with one thing to add our next 4 and any pair are better than there next 5 any pair.

  55. Lowetide says:

    Why do I hate Marincin?

  56. RexLibris says:

    “Steve” For Real, Let’s Undulate “Smith”: Almost certainly true; my point was just that “bottom six” is a very peculiar term with which to describe a defenceman.

    It was such a ridiculous statement that that fact didn’t even occur to me.

    Thank you for pointing it out. I feel like an idiot, but at least I say that I feel like less of one than others.

  57. Malbec says:

    "Steve" For Real, Let's Undulate "Smith": I should be able to think of some other recommendations, because I’ve spent a fair bit of time in Montreal

    I remember a great museum of modern art. And you couldn’t be more right (as usual), walking around Montreal is great. From the living history, to the architecture, to spotting t-bars – Montreal overwhelms the senses.

  58. RexLibris says:

    Lowetide:
    Why do I hate Marincin?

    STOP HATING MARINCIN! They might trade him to the Flames.

  59. RexLibris says:

    "Steve" For Real, Let's Undulate "Smith": The Biodome is fun, as is the insectarium.If you’re into that sort of thing, there are some very good botanical gardens right next door to it.Also, whatever kind of cultural activity you’re interested in (theatre, music of various sorts, visual arts, stand up comedy, etc.) will have something good happening while you’re there, so you should look into that (though that might be where money becomes an object).

    I don’t know where you live, but if it’s Edmonton or Calgary or some place, you should make a point of walking around Montreal a whole bunch (particularly St. Denis, St. Catherines, and the like).We in the world’s newest cities don’t fully appreciate how much of a real city’s character can only be taken in on foot.If you’re from New York or some other proper city (N.B. this does not include Toronto or Vancouver), or have much experience travelling to such places, you already know this.

    I should be able to think of some other recommendations, because I’ve spent a fair bit of time in Montreal, but for some reason I can’t right now.Alone among major Canadian cities, Montreal is its own best tourist attraction (again, like New York and most European metropolises).

    I live in Edmonton and will be making a point of spending as much time in the “old city” as possible. I’ve a special preference for European cities and their history. I could spend a lifetime in Edinburgh, Cote D’Azur, and the like. Less so Glasgow, but that’s mostly on account of not owning a sufficiently kevlar-based wardrobe.

    Thanks for the info. I’m staying right near the Quays so should be close to some decent attractions.

    The Mount Royal cemetary seems interesting, and a great time of year for it too, if one is inclined to greedily wallow in melancholy.

  60. RexLibris says:

    OilFire: Well, you could see the fattest, fattest, fattest racoons at the lookout on the “mountain.”They’re so fat, they look like cartoon teddy bears.

    You can see Bay Street from Montreal?!

  61. RexLibris says:

    Hammers: Your probably right but with one thing to add our next 4 and any pair are better than there next 5 any pair.

    If I were rating the rosters it would probably run:

    Brodie-Giordano
    Petry-Fayne
    Marincin-Nikitin
    Schultz-Klefbom
    Wideman-Russell
    Ference-Smid

    Engelland-Cam Barker

  62. RexLibris says:

    Thanks for all your great suggestions.

    I’ll take them to heart and try to visit as many as I can.

    Hey, LT. There’s a Faberge exhibit on while I’m there. Want me to bring you an egg?

  63. nycoil says:

    Bobby Mac and Dreger to NBC for a bag of pucks. Best news of the season for US-based hockey fans. Hopefully Milbury and Roenick are relegated to smaller roles.

  64. Lowetide says:

    RexLibris:
    Thanks for all your great suggestions.

    I’ll take them to heart and try to visit as many as I can.

    Hey, LT. There’s a Faberge exhibit on while I’m there. Want me to bring you an egg?

    Oh YES!

  65. Numenius says:

    Button ranks Tkachev 46th in his October draft list. Wonder how much that’ll change over the season.

    http://www.tsn.ca/craig-s-list-october-ranking-mcdavid-leads-the-pack-1.100255

  66. dessert1111 says:

    RexLibris:

    Seriously, though. Aside from the Basilica and Museum of Fine Art, any recommendations? Money is an object here.

    I second the suggestion to walk around downtown (and oddly those were the exact two streets I was going to mention as examples) and would like to add that the old Montreal area is nice and I would recommend using the metro. It’s an interesting set up architecturally as a city, bleeds culture and character.

  67. book¡je says:

    "Steve" For Real, Let's Undulate "Smith": The Biodome is fun, as is the insectarium.If you’re into that sort of thing, there are some very good botanical gardens right next door to it.Also, whatever kind of cultural activity you’re interested in (theatre, music of various sorts, visual arts, stand up comedy, etc.) will have something good happening while you’re there, so you should look into that (though that might be where money becomes an object).

    I don’t know where you live, but if it’s Edmonton or Calgary or some place, you should make a point of walking around Montreal a whole bunch (particularly St. Denis, St. Catherines, and the like).We in the world’s newest cities don’t fully appreciate how much of a real city’s character can only be taken in on foot.If you’re from New York or some other proper city (N.B. this does not include Toronto or Vancouver), or have much experience travelling to such places, you already know this.

    I should be able to think of some other recommendations, because I’ve spent a fair bit of time in Montreal, but for some reason I can’t right now.Alone among major Canadian cities, Montreal is its own best tourist attraction (again, like New York and most European metropolises).

    Well said – as someone with a keen interest in Cities, a good bit of my focus in Edmonton is about hoping for the future and lamenting the recent past, but this place was once pretty awesome (pre 1950)

    HEY – no wonder I like this hockey team.

  68. kooler says:

    RexLibris,

    Don’t forget the food.

    Schwartz’s for a awesome smoked meat sandwich..and if you decide to do a beautiful steak hit Moshies.

  69. jimmers2 says:

    RexLibris,

    RexLibris,

    If you are staying in the Vieux Port and you want to soak up history, you will be next door to the Point à Callière Museum of Archaeology which has preserved ruins of buildings going back to the foundation of the city in the 17th century as well as plenty of other things, like an exhibit on Marco Polo at the moment. I’m in Québec City, the fall colours are now coming on fast here and it is shaping up to be a warm and colourful autumn. It is probably better in Montréal. You could be very lucky for fall colours and the long walk along the St. Lawrence in the Vieux Port is a great place to soak it up. Stroll, stop for an expresso, stroll, stroll, biscotti, stroll, smoke like a fiend… Stop in the Notre Dame de Beausecours chapel if you do. If you are eating in the area, there are restaurants everywhere. For an Alberta boy lost and far from home, you can find lots of steak at Gibby’s, near by the Point à Callières museum.

    The bagel place mentioned above is the St. Viateur Bagel. They are the best bagels I have tasted outside of one or two places in New York.

    TO keep up with themes of tastes and sights of a real big city, you might want to check ou the Marché Jean Talon. Lots of tasty and exotic things to try and the whole place smells amazing.

    There are kilometres of restaurants and pubs on St. Denis. If you like microbreweries try L’ Amère à Boire on St. Denis.

    Jim

  70. book¡je says:

    I propose a new statistic.

    It’s called the BOOK¡JE – It’s a measure based upon how often per season a fan gets unrealistic hope for the future and then find themselves saying “Fuck this team” in absolute disgust within a 72 hour period.

    The BOOK¡JE is earned by both the fan and the player/players/management/coaches that cause the BOOK¡JE.

    For example, both Woodguy and MacT earned a preseason BOOK¡JE yesterday when Mancerin was sent down by MacT. Woodguy was feeling pretty good about the GM and the team and within a short period of time, he found himself saying “Fuck this team”

    I claim the namesake of the BOOK¡JE because I am pretty certain that I have earned more BOOK¡JE’s than anyone on this site. I am a natural optimist so the highs come quickly, but I am also pretty quick to get disappointed so I am a natural BOOK¡JEier.

    With that said, I have pretty high hopes heading into the season opener. However, part of me worries that I could get my first BOOK¡JE of the season.

  71. Masamax says:

    You seem to have a good handle on where you want to go Rex. I do personally recommend the bars in old Montreal for a great experience. Never felt such comradery in a drinking establishment!

    Put me down as someone who found the Modern Art museum a bit underwhelming compared to others I’ve visited, but it was very inexpensive as I recall and probably would be a good distraction while downtown. I also recommend just taking a walk around the McGill campus because it’s lovely. Universite De Montreal not so much. Being on the hill doesn’t help much. What a walk. But if you decide to walk down to the metro through the campus it’s not bad. You’ll find very similar architecture to U of A or U of C.

    My final suggestion is just walking the streets. When I’m in an old city like this I love walking through residential neighborhoods and seeing the development that is self evident. Have fun 🙂

  72. magisterrex says:

    “Steve” For Real, Let’s Undulate “Smith”: From what I understand, it’s been as follows:

    Not Marincin-Not Marincin
    Not Marincin-Not Marincin
    Not Marincin-Not Marincin

    This comment wins the thread.

  73. jfry says:

    Rex,

    Go for Portuguese chicken at romado’s. Eat smoked meat at Schwartz or the main. Go to a rock show at escogriffe. Go for breakfast at patati patata. Walk around the plateau. Have a drink at the amazing st. Elizabeth patio (used to be a brothel and the patio is where gentlemen kept their carriage).

    The museums in Yul are nothing special. Montreal has the best mural culture in the whole world, maybe — I would forego museums to walk around the streets and see the hundreds of amazing pieces that are constantly going up all over town. The life in the streets is what you go for. Old Montreal is okay, but you just hang out with a bunch of tourists and 5 a 7 after work people, which is why I recommend the plateau, or mile end (Montreal’s Brooklyn) for brasserie’s, cute girls and the best bagels (st. Viature).

    On Sunday afternoon, take a meal (romado’s) and go hang out on the mountain for a couple hours in the sun and watch the larping and hippies. Its funner than it sounds.

    Also, walk around the streets with a beer you bought at a dep in a paper bag. Montreal has surprisingly good pizza on most blocks, by the slice. And when in doubt for late night hit up lafleurs or any burger joint and get a Michigan dog!

    Have a blast. If you want restaurants or clubs to go to, just let me know and I can suggest a bunch

  74. Aitch says:

    Regarding Staples and his Nielson numbers, I think the biggest problem with them as someone else pointed out is that it ony covers 5% of the game, at best. It’s like the old saying about the tree falling in the forest. If no one is around, does it make a sound? Well in Staples case, if a player screens the goalie, makes a brilliant pass or breaks up a 2-on-1 against and the play doesn’t result in the puck going into either net, does it matter? Not to Staples.

    For Staples’ ideas to work, you need to breakdown the entire game. See who is winning battles, who is making a larger percentage of their passes, who is causing whistles at inopportune times. The only thing his +/- does is better distribute points on actual scoring plays. (And I DO believe there is some worth in that.) However, to attack other advanced stats, while simultaneously defending his own, seems hypocritical.

  75. jp says:

    RexLibris: I live in Edmonton and will be making a point of spending as much time in the “old city” as possible. I’ve a special preference for European cities and their history. I could spend a lifetime in Edinburgh, Cote D’Azur, and the like. Less so Glasgow, but that’s mostly on account of not owning a sufficiently kevlar-based wardrobe.

    Thanks for the info. I’m staying right near the Quays so should be close to some decent attractions.

    The Mount Royal cemetary seems interesting, and a great time of year for it too, if one is inclined to greedily wallow in melancholy.

    The “old city” (old port they call it) is nice, but the St. Laurent/St. Denis and St. Catherine strips are far more interesting for the people and things going on imo. From the old port you can walk up St. Laurent and through chinatown, then continue on St. Laurent or head to St. Denis (parallel and a couple of blocks east). Rue Mont Royal would be a nice walk too. And don’t forget the poutine.

  76. Yeti says:

    In case it’s of interest: RE: You Can’t Always Get What You Want, here is ace blues guitarist Luther Allison’s version from ‘Paint It Blue’, an album where blues artists repatriate Stone’s songs… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSBdGA584E4

  77. slopitch says:

    Woodguy, playing devils advocate here but if corsi is a proxy for possession could scoring chances not be as well? Or better yet a proxy for goals? I don’t really think so but the argument that David is only looking at 5% of the game applies to corsi as well just to a lesser degree. What David has been unable to do thus far is correlate his data to winning.

  78. Lowetide says:

    book¡je:
    I propose a new statistic.

    It’s called theBOOK¡JE – It’s a measure based upon how often per season a fan gets unrealistic hope for the future and then find themselves saying “Fuck this team” in absolute disgust within a 72 hour period.

    TheBOOK¡JE is earned by both the fan and the player/players/management/coaches that cause theBOOK¡JE.

    For example, bothWoodguy and MacT earned a preseason BOOK¡JE yesterday when Mancerin was sent down by MacT. Woodguy was feeling pretty good about the GM and the team and within a short period of time, he found himself saying “Fuck this team”

    I claim the namesake of the BOOK¡JE because I am pretty certain that I have earned moreBOOK¡JE’s than anyone on this site.I am a natural optimist so the highs come quickly, but I am also pretty quick to get disappointed so I am a naturalBOOK¡JEier.

    With that said, I have pretty high hopes heading into the season opener.However, part of me worries that I could get my firstBOOK¡JE of the season.

    This is a grand idea. theBOOK¡JE number it is!

  79. Yeti says:

    Although Rom would prefer this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_PSP-Qs5W0
    Hold on. Whatever happened to Rom? Did they send him to Oklahoma along with Marincin?

  80. wheatnoil says:

    RexLibris: STOP HATING MARINCIN! They might trade him to the Flames.

    That’ll only happen once LT starts liking him again and stops trying to trade him.

  81. RMGS says:

    RexLibris:
    BTW, going to Montreal this weekend.

    Should I wear a Rangers McDonagh jersey when I’m out sight-seeing?

    http://www.tsn.ca/blueliner-mcdonagh-named-rangers-captain-1.100908

    Seriously, though. Aside from the Basilica and Museum of Fine Art, any recommendations? Money is an object here.

    I second most sugestions already posted, in particular walking through the Plateau and along Sainte-Catherine and will strongly encourage you to wander out of the Old Port as soon as you’ve had your fill. Montréal is not really experienced in the old city (if you really want the ‘Old World’ feel, visit Québec’s old city). Also, try Parc LaFontaine, and if you visit Marché Jean-Talon, it’s a short walk to the Mile End along Parc Ave. You can also compare the smoked meat at Lester’s with Schwartz’. Enjoy!

  82. Hammers says:

    RexLibris: If I were rating the rosters it would probably run:Brodie-GiordanoPetry-FayneMarincin-NikitinSchultz-KlefbomWideman-RussellFerence-Smid…Engelland-Cam Barker

    Obviously we agree but will we be good enogh with 3 sets of 3-4’s

  83. RexLibris says:

    These are all awesome suggestions.

    Thank you, I’m taking notes.

    Sounds like I’ll be pulling out my walking shoes.

    When I was in Scotland a few years back I must have walked about 300 or 400 km over five days. It was a great way to get around and with the train so affordable and frequent you could spend half a day in Glasgow, another half in Stirling, then have the evening in Edinburgh.

    I love the walkability of older cities like Montreal.

  84. nycoil says:

    I must remember to bookmark this thread for the next time I’m in Montreal. If you guys ever need New York City, or Tokyo tips for that matter, let me know. Actually you can add to that Rio, Buenos Aires, Cape Town, HK, Singapore, Kyoto, Lisbon, Istanbul, Miami, Santa Fe, Las Vegas, and Barcelona among cities I’m pretty comfortable giving tips in. The rest, not so much. I’m a tourist like anyone else. My Vancouver and Edmonton data is pretty obsolete !

    Enjoy your walks and poutine and smoked meat and drinks (and smokes?), Rex.

  85. jfry says:

    Lt, can you put a widget in the sidebar of the site for this?

    Lowetide: This is a grand idea. theBOOK¡JE number it is!

  86. nycoil says:

    New post alert

  87. G Money says:

    slopitch,

    You have it exactly right.

    I find this thread somewhat distressing.

    The fact that posters here are criticizing Staples/Neilsen while buying into Corsi suggests that there may be a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere about the nature of measurement and statistical analysis.

    The MSM and other knuckle-draggers criticize Corsi and advanced stats because they are flawed. Guess what? They’re right.

    And here we are, an enlightened stats-friendly blog, that (rightly) defends Corsi despite the myriad flaws. Because we understand that the flaws in some way don’t matter – it’s whether or not Corsi et al provide us with valuable information about a team or player.

    And it does, so we use it and defend it.

    And yet here we sit, slagging on Staples’ Neilsen numbers exercise because … it’s flawed?

    Yes it is, folks, yes it is.

    That’s beside the point. Measurements and statistics by their very nature are deeply flawed.

    The question at hand for any measurement and related statistic is : does it add information? Or to put another way, does it reduce uncertainty with respect to something you care to understand?

    Answer: yes. It does.

    Just like Corsi. Deeply flawed. Carries a ton of information.

    Don’t be like Steve Simmons. Don’t slag it just because it has flaws.

  88. G Money says:

    BTW, the whole Corsi vs Neilsen debate (as if they’re somehow opposed) is ridiculous. The fact that Staples himself tries to invalidate Corsi while arguing for Neilsen demonstrates that he’s something of a dumbass.

    Nonetheless, even if he’s a dumbass and doesn’t actually understand why the information he’s collecting is worthwhile, doesn’t change the fact that it *is* worthwhile.

Leave a Reply

Want to join the discussion?
Feel free to contribute!
© Copyright - Lowetide.ca