LESSONS LEARNED FROM THE DEPTHS OF THE SECOND DIVISION

The real culprit in the 2014-15 Oilers season is the 2007 draft. Bob Nicholson going on Toronto radio and throwing the current staff under the bus ignores what happened before Stu MacGregor became scouting director. Kevin Prendergast presided over the draft 2001-07 for Edmonton and there were many problems in that era—including several years when the team didn’t have an AHL club.

The 2007 draft came at a time when Edmonton badly needed to replenish the system. The Oilers were only one year removed from the SCF but the NHL roster was wobbly in many places and Ryan Smyth had left town. The Oilers entered the draft with:

  • The No. 6, No. 15, No. 30 and No. 36 overall picks

A tremendous need for help everywhere meant the scouting department had all kinds of options available. Let’s review what they did at each point in the draft and how it has impacted the team since that weekend.

gagner111

NUMBER SIX

Before the draft, we discussed (on this blog) Edmonton getting one of Sam Gagner or Jakub Voracek at No. 6 overall. As it turned out, the LA Kings (who have never made a mistake, then or since) chose Thomas Hickey and the Oilers were left with their choice of the two players they coveted (well, Prendergast kept saying things about Karl Alzner but I digress). Edmonton chose wrong (Voracek>Gagner) but it’s ridiculous to be critical in hindsight and 89 looked damn good at the time. Looking back, it is true he was small and unfast which is a deadly combination. The lesson here: big and slower, or small and fast, but not small and slower. Fair?

plante1

 NUMBER FIFTEEN

Alex Plante didn’t work out—there were injury issues from the beginning, at the first rookie camp before main camp—but the idea of a big, strong defender with some offense was certainly defensible. The error with this selection: BPA. The club should have taken Cherepanov, and the fact the young man died tragically doesn’t change the point of BPA. Plante was not the best defenseman still on the board (Subban), we know that today. What we knew draft day is that Plante wasn’t the best value at No. 15 and they should have either traded down or taken a more highly rated player. Call it the Niinimaki triangle. My other issue with this pick: Mobility. Plante’s problem, beyond the concussions, was his ability to change direction. It was like watching a big rig turn around in a phone booth: awkward, slow and exasperating.

Two picks in: Two players with skating issues, one of whom was a reach.

nash rileyNUMBER TWENTY-ONE

The most ridiculous moment of all came when the team cashed picks No. 30 and No. 36 for No. 21 overall. That’s a massive overpayment but might have been justified had they chosen Max Pacioretty or David Perron. Instead, the Oilers chose BCJHL center Riley Nash, who was bound for Cornell and would not be available to the Oilers for the rest of the decade. Remember, he was NOT the highest-ranked player on the list at the time they gave up the picks. It was a terrible move and they never did get Nash anyway. Meanwhile, the NHL team spent years shorthanded at center when they could really have used a young center taken from 2007 to help the other kids.

SUMMARY

The Oilers have three high picks this coming draft, they currently hold No. 2, No. 23 and No. 32 overall picks (rest of season and lottery to come). I think they need to take three forwards, the best offensive options available, and avoid any of the second tier leagues. That’s BCJHL (for the love of God Almighty), AJHL, SJHL, MJHL, OPJHL, USHL, NAHL, all of it. They should draft players in the first three selections from the CHL, NCAA or Europe.

They should NOT factor in how many years they have to make a decision, that’s a chicken play when you’re drafting this high. They should NOT take any player in those three selections who hasn’t shown a clear ability to impact the offense. Full stop.

On the day Bob Green, Scott Howson and Craig MacTavish sit down to make the final list (I assume Stu MacGregor and the scouts will have been fired into the sun by the Nicholson cannon), they need to pay heed to the following:

  • No size AND skating issues, no matter the talent
  • No insane reaches
  • No packaging up No. 23 and No. 32 to get to No. 17 (that isn’t value)
  • No BCJHL or any other JHL
  • No one with a long list of injuries already
  • NO GOALIES (they won’t listen to this one)
  • No picks that have questionable offensive resumes. This draft is deep enough to score three magnificent talents.

I think they should walk into the room and take (based on where they are now) Jack Eichel, Anthony Beauvillier and Jake DeBrusk. My bet is they walk away with Eichel, Bittner and Blackwood.

ABOUT LAST NIGHT

Halfway through last night’s game I remarked Edmonton seemed to be playing well enough to win, and looked forward to seeing if they could keep it up. Oh, those Oilers. Todd Nelson could do himself an enormous favor by focusing on ways to beat the Calgary Flames. It’s all we have left as fans, hurting Calgary’s chances, and good grief last night was a ghastly sight. The Oilers at this point are the embodiment of Cliff Clavin and the Flames are their Jeopardy. The Edmonton Oilers, as a hockey team, are either a hilarious group of bumblers or the personification of the word nonsense. Either way, they’re pitiful.

How can they stop it? Give up the idea they’re the smartest men in the room. Like Cliff Clavin, the Oilers seem to be the last to know the joke is on them. It’s sad, really.

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164 Responses to "LESSONS LEARNED FROM THE DEPTHS OF THE SECOND DIVISION"

  1. zatch says:

    I had forgotten how many picks we had that draft. Total, total disaster.

    I would love to know the story behind the Oilers weird obsessions with the BCJHL. It’s too illogical and particular to be random, I think. There must be something going on there.

  2. Pajamah says:

    This year will forever be remember as the year of the debilitating loss.

    Good and bad teams alike lose games. It happens to every team. Most teams seem to have a few “what in the living hell was that?” Games.

    It’s not even the losing. It’s the way this team does it and rips the psyche of the fans into pitiful shreds. I appreciate that Nelson is a better coach, and this team isn’t gord awful with him at the helm. Games like last night make you forgot all the good of 2015.

  3. flyfish1168 says:

    I have wondered what was the price Gillis was asking for on Cory Schneider. Having a great season on bad team.

  4. John Chambers says:

    Pajamah,

    It’s kind of the opposite of that year where the team would be outshot, but Garon was money in the shootout and they would walk away with undeserved points. Ultimately that season probably offered too much in the way of undue optimism, putting the club back several years.

    The bright side of course is that the Oilers really deserve to be somewhere in between Carolina and Columbus in the standings, and we can only hope* that they make a series of clever moves in the offseason and some of our young talent continues to develop, and …

    *been thinking that since as long as can be remembered

  5. oilersfan says:

    For those wondering about the oilers’ obsession with the bcjhl here’s a hint: stu macgregor lives in kamloops. Not sure but i think Bob brown lives there too. I am pretty sure the forensic audit can stop there.

  6. Lowetide says:

    John Chambers:
    Pajamah,

    It’s kind of the opposite of that year where the team would be outshot, but Garon was money in the shootout and they would walk away with undeserved points. Ultimately that season probably offered too much in the way of undue optimism, putting the club back several years.

    The bright side of course is that the Oilers really deserve to be somewhere in between Carolina and Columbus in the standings, and we can only hope* that they make a series of clever moves in the offseason and some of our young talent continues to develop, and …

    *been thinking that since as long as can be remembered

    I think Edmonton catches Arizona this year and am still pretty sure one of the eastern teams fall too (Carolina being my choice). Toronto looks like they’re full Monty now, may be others in the coming weeks. I think EDM could well finish ahead of Buffalo, Arizona, Carolina and Toronto/NJD. That would mean No. 26 overall.

    MacT better trade Petry soon.

  7. supernova says:

    2007 draft.

    Couldn’t agree more. I have been saying this on here for awhile now.

    The issues of today are not caused by current management, now that isn’t a defence of them, I can get to the issues of current management. It is the depth of the system that wasn’t there long before 2010, 2011 and 2012. The years we picked first overall.

    Look at the drafts of 2004, 2005, 2007.

    2006 was actually really good, especially with no Number 1.

    It clearly shows why we were terrible when we drafted Hall.

    As lowetide states on here often it takes 5 years to know a draft.

    So if you are struggling with play in the years of 2009 and 2010 and 2011. We need to look at approximately 5 years before and see.

    Now it’s 2015 what happened 2007,2008,2009, 2010.

    We have signs of hope but they are only brief glimpses.

  8. oilersfan says:

    On another note, while i didnt watch last nights third period and dont plan on it, i dont think any goalie who allows four goals in three periods on 12 shots is a good goalie

  9. blainer says:

    LT.. I had to stop reviewing that 2007 draft as every time I did it would just get me sooo pissed. We are defiantly paying the price for those mistakes today. On the game last night .. I have stopped watching the games as they are only going to cause me blood pressure problems.. especially Calgary.

    The Oilers have to get this draft right. I am ok with keeping the pick if the right trade is not out there. What a different team this is if we had hit the home run of Perron Pacioretty and Subban… The Problem is these new picks are a long way down the pipeline..

  10. frjohnk says:

    Lowetide: I think Edmonton catches Arizona this year and am still pretty sure one of the eastern teams fall too (Carolina being my choice). Toronto looks like they’re full Monty now, may be others in the coming weeks. I think EDM could well finish ahead of Buffalo, Arizona, Carolina and Toronto/NJD. That would mean No. 26 overall.

    MacT better trade Petry soon.

    Im ot sure Oilers catch the Hurrianes.

    These are the amount of games left against non playoff teams
    Hurricanes 18( 3 of these are against teams fighting for playoff spots, Kings, Stars, Avs, Wild)
    Coyotes11 ( 3 of these are against teams fighting for playoff spots, Kings, Stars, Avs, Wild)
    Oilers14 ( 8 of these are against teams fighting for playoff spots, Kings, Stars, Avs, Wild)

    Here is score adjusted fenwick since Nelson took over
    Hurricanes 51.5%
    Coyotes 46.5%
    Oilers 49.5%

    I think Oilers pass the Yotes, but not the Hurricanes. I think we pick anywhere from 1st to 4th.

  11. supernova says:

    I actually have some hope for our system with what occurred in 2013 draft, the subsequent AHL and ECHL moves.

    Especially the new move of the Bakersfield Condors as the top team. Please please release Matt Ford, Andrew Miller, Pinnizotto and like players.

    Give the kids a chance to play and fail or play and succeed. We only need a couple of older veterans, maybe 3 would work. Then go younger. Have Curtis Hamilton be a mentor for Jackson Houck.

    “The first to pick you up, is the one who has fallen before”

    Have our older veterans be at Key positions like Center, and D and possibly goalie. ( Broissot has earned starting job though)

    We don’t need 2 lines of veteran players who have a top end of being a 12th FWD. Holy hell.

    If Lander and Marincin and Klefbom and just one more can either turn out or be turned into a tangible asset. We can have achieved some building blocks from the 2009 to 2011 drafts. We already have Hall & Nuge.

    Just under 2 players a year is a really good return on draft performance. But they have to be real contributors.

  12. Lowetide says:

    frjohnk: Im ot sure Oilers catch the Hurrianes.

    These are the amount of games left against non playoff teams
    Hurricanes 18( 3 of these are against teams fighting for playoff spots, Kings, Ducks, Avs, Wild)Coyotes11 ( 3 of these are against teams fighting for playoff spots, Kings, Ducks, Avs, Wild)Oilers14 ( 8 of these are against teams fighting for playoff spots, Kings, Ducks, Avs, Wild)

    Here is score adjusted fenwick since Nelson took overHurricanes 51.5%Coyotes 46.5%Oilers 49.5%

    I think Oilers pass the Yotes, but not the Hurricanes.I think we pick anywhere from 1st to 4th.

    Hurricanes are going to trade their best defenseman soon and one imagines there will be plenty of auditioning going on, too.

  13. Taro Tsujimoto says:

    WWRWD

    What Would the Red Wings Do?

  14. Lowetide says:

    Taro Tsujimoto:
    WWRWD

    What Would the Red Wings Do?

    Red Wings would draft more Swedes.

  15. supernova says:

    I think we should work on building a scouting Manifesto as a blogger / commentary group.

    Things like skating issues.

    Romulus and I have been discussing something similar on Twitter.

    We need to really dissect what we think is good and bad scouting.

    Skating is the first issue that a scout should look at In my opinion.

    Now skating can also be coached but I have been told skating coaches see certain things as huge red flags and other things as very workable.

    Things like acceleration through the first 4 steps. Maintaining edges, etc

    Then we carry it to the next step.

  16. verdad2.0 says:

    Last night was another cruel abuse of Oilers fans.
    But it seems we can look forward to more years of no accountability for the shameful results of the last decade.

    At some point, the Oiler blogosphere has to rally behind the simple idea that MacTavish etal need to be flushed asap. Who could possibly have any confidence that his leadership could possibly get right the basic decisions necessary to turn around this team? Who could possibly make a compelling case that he should stay on the another day longer?

    Two fundamental decisions have to be taken by this team very soon. What value do any of these draft picks hold when the real objective has to be regaining genuine competitiveness for 2015-16. The future must be now. Secondly, come to terms that most of this team needs to be gutted, starting the long over-rated Hall cluster.

    For decisions of that magnitude new hockey leadership is requried.

    Stop concentrating on the mindless details of prospective 18 year olds and inane statistics.
    The team is heartless and under-talented
    MacTavish has made it manifestly worse. From hiring Eakins, to drafting and playing Draisatl, bungling Gagner and Petry assets to the profane give away for nothing of Perron, Nikitin and Ference, etc.
    A re-build can’t be this hard.

    So stop the fan abuse. Lets collectively get behind his immediiate dismissal.

  17. The Artist formerly known as "NYCOIL" says:

    LT,

    “The lesson here: big and slower, or small and fast, but not big and slower. ”

    I think you meant,” but not small and slower.”

    I think I’ve said it here about 15 times.
    I preferred Voracek at the time. I didn’t think Gagner would pan out. Then he had that Super Series and a terrific rookie year and I looked wrong and the Oilers right. In the long run, Voracek has turned out to be the better pick, as I originally thought, but I’d say Gagner covered the bet and can’t fault them for it.

    However, the 2007 draft turned out to be far stronger than was touted pre-draft and the misses afterwards: I mean, Plante had skating issues from the start. I don’t know why you take him at 15. Nash, well, he wanted to go to Cornell and the Oilers got in a spat with him right off the bat about him staying there. It was clear they weren’t on the same page as well. And just because Stu managed to turn that bullet into Marincin doesn’t forgive the flawed process.

    The opposite end of the spectrum to the Oilers’ 2007 draft of disaster is the Canadiens’

    2007 Entry 12 1 Ryan McDonagh D Cretin Derham Hall H.S. (Minn.) 282 29 90 119 132
    2007 Entry 22 1 Max Pacioretty L Sioux City Musketeers [USHL] 367 130 123 253 227
    2007 Entry 43 2 P.K. Subban D Belleville Bulls [OHL] 332 53 147 200 437
    2007 Entry 65 3 Olivier Fortier C Rimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
    2007 Entry 73 3 Yannick Weber D Kitchener Rangers [OHL] 201 15 38 53 80

    Holy hell is that ever a wonderful, wonderful draft.
    Of course Gainey then traded McDonagh for Gomez! Imagine the Habs had both McDonagh and Subban. They’d be Cup favorites at this point, at least among Eastern teams.

  18. frjohnk says:

    Lowetide: Hurricanes are going to trade their best defenseman soon and one imagines there will be plenty of auditioning going on, too.

    Yeah, you are right in that sense. Sekara was mentioned in your broadcast yesterday and that once the Canes lose him, that is a big loss. Not sure who else they will get rid of, but we know they wont be adding. I think Yotes blow it wide open and probably trade the most players including Yandle.

    On another note, you mentioned how it would be nice to get PRV on a line with Lander. I wonder if Curtis Hamilton is that player. Hamilton is big, a good two way player, has a bit of offence. I don’t think Hamilton is as good as skater as PRV ( Hamilton is still a pretty good skater) but does use his size more than PRV.

  19. Ben says:

    Lowetide: Hurricanes are going to trade their best defenseman soon and one imagines there will be plenty of auditioning going on, too.

    Well, they won’t be the only ones.

  20. rickithebear says:

    You know i have been beating this drum.
    1st; 2nd; high 3rd; outliers with NHLE math.

    99 -2000 EIG sat her fraser
    Rita; Semenov; Salmelainen
    Mikhnov; Winchester

    EIG lowe Pendegast
    01-2002
    Hemsky; Lynch; Caron
    Minimaki; JDD; Stoll; Greene
    03-07
    MAP; Mcdonald; JFJ; 7rd Brodziak
    Dubnyk; Schremp; Tesliuk; Paukovich
    Cogliano; Chorney; Syvret
    Petry; Peckham
    Gagner; Plante; Nash;

    08-12 Katz; Tambo SM
    Eberle #22
    MP #10; Lander #40
    Hall; Pitlick; Marincin; Hamilton
    RNH; KLefbom; Musil; 4rd Rieder
    Yakupov; Moroz; Khaira

    13-14 Katz; MacT; SM
    Nurse; MOR; Yakimov; Slepyshev; 4rd Muir; 5rd Campbell; 7rd Chase
    Draisatl; 4rd; Laggeson; Nagelvort; 6rd Vesel

    You mean 03-07.

    Ncholson’s recent junior personal record is SHITE!

  21. Mr DeBakey says:

    supernova: Especially the new move of the Bakersfield Condors as the top team. Please please release Matt Ford, Andrew Miller, Pinnizotto and like players.

    Several are advocating this. I’d remind you of the plight of the Springfield Falcons. It wasn’t pretty or productive.

  22. oliveoilers says:

    flyfish1168:
    I have wondered what was the price Gillis was asking for on Cory Schneider. Having a great season onbad team.

    Gillis tried to stiff us with a division ‘discount’, The #7 (Nurse), our 2nd rounder (this year’s, as last year’s was given to St Louis for Perron) and a good young roster player.

    Ended up going east for just the #9.

    Gillis = wanker.

  23. supernova says:

    The Artist formerly known as “NYCOIL”:
    LT,

    “The lesson here: big and slower, or small and fast, but not big and slower. ”

    I think you meant,” but not small and slower.”

    I think I’ve said it here about 15 times.
    I preferred Voracek at the time. I didn’t think Gagner would pan out. Then he had that Super Series and a terrific rookie year and I looked wrong and the Oilers right. In the long run, Voracek has turned out to be the better pick, as I originally thought, but I’d say Gagner covered the bet and can’t fault them for it.

    However, the 2007 draft turned out to be far stronger than was touted pre-draft and the misses afterwards: I mean, Plante had skating issues from the start. I don’t know why you take him at 15. Nash, well, he wanted to go to Cornell and the Oilers got in a spat with him right off the bat about him staying there. It was clear they weren’t on the same page as well. And just because Stu managed to turn that bullet into Marincin doesn’t forgive the flawed process.

    The opposite end of the spectrum to the Oilers’ 2007 draft of disaster is the Canadiens’

    2007 Entry121Ryan McDonaghDCretin Derham Hall H.S. (Minn.)2822990119132
    2007 Entry221Max PaciorettyLSioux City Musketeers [USHL]367130123253227
    2007 Entry432P.K. SubbanDBelleville Bulls [OHL]33253147200437
    2007 Entry653Olivier FortierCRimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
    2007 Entry733Yannick WeberDKitchener Rangers [OHL]20115385380

    Holy hell is that ever a wonderful, wonderful draft.
    Of course Gainey then traded McDonagh for Gomez! Imagine the Habs had both McDonagh and Subban. They’d be Cup favorites at this point, at least among Eastern teams.

    The Artist formerly known as “NYCOIL”,

    Well stated.

    The Alex Plante pick was very much a mystery.

    At times he looked like a man amongst boys that year. At other times he looked completely lost.
    Playing with Karl Alzner who was very good at his skillset In junior helped him tremendously.
    I am certainly not going to say I am a better scout than the NHL guys but I watched Plante enough before his draft, that the highest I would have picked him was with the 36th pick that year.

    He had some sills that really shone but a lot of really raw things as well.

    Definitely a case of a scout falling hard for something he saw.

  24. The Artist formerly known as "NYCOIL" says:

    Looking at that Habs’ draft is very interesting. They got Minnesota high schooler home run, a USHL home run, an OHL home run, and a solid single/double from the OHL as well.

    I wonder how much of what they did was “saw him good” based vs NHLEs, etc.

    The Oilers selected a Minnesota High School defender as well. Troy Hesketh ring a bell?

  25. verdad2.0 says:

    Btw, not taking the Schneider trade was another fundamental MacTavish blunder.
    Does no one on this site get the concept of present value.
    Schneider versus the non-goaltending the Oilers have endured that last two seasons.
    Waiting another five years for defensemen to mature can’t be endured by Oiler fans any longer.

  26. Ca$h-Money! says:

    frjohnk,

    The ducks are fighting for a playoff spot? Aren’t they in first?

  27. supernova says:

    Mr DeBakey: Several are advocating this.I’d remind you of the plight of the Springfield Falcons.It wasn’t pretty or productive.

    Mr DeBakey,

    The Springfield Falcons also were basically a start up team. Oilers hadn’t had a farm team of their own for awhile.

    Take off those players I listed add in the coming juniors and a couple of Euro and College signings and it likely could already beat those Springfield Falcons.

    I am okay with having veterans in your system but it needs to be the right kind of veterans.

    Jason Williams is totally find by me.

    Matt Ford and Andrew miller if he is signed next year is not.

    Centers and wingers.

    I actually like the Miller signing and hope we do another but we know what we have now. He isn’t anything more than a 13 th NHL forward at the top and he is taking minutes away from players who could be more than that.

    Once he is done his contract we have to move on.

  28. frjohnk says:

    supernova: We need to really dissect what we think is good and bad scouting.
    Skating is the first issue that a scout should look at In my opinion.
    Now skating can also be coached but I have been told skating coaches see certain things as huge red flags and other things as very workable.
    Things like acceleration through the first 4 steps. Maintaining edges, etc
    Then we carry it to the next step.

    36 D men drafted from 03 to 10 in the top 15

    Out of those 36 D men, 11 were drafted because they were big but they had skating issues.

    These guys were drafted in the top 15 between 2003 and 2010. Big with poor to below average skating
    Cam Barker
    Boris Valabik
    A.J. Thelen
    Sasha Pokuluk
    Keaton Ellerby
    Alex Plante
    Luke Schenn
    Colton Tuebert
    Jared Cowan
    Dylan McIlrath
    Derek Forbert

    Now if you pick a D man in the top 15 who has good to elite skating, the chance he becomes a top 3 D man is almost 75%.

    Skating and skill are the first priorities.

    Im very leary about any prospect who has “skating issues”

    I think if we did a spreadsheet, we would see that most prospects fail the grade because of skating.

    Its so important.

  29. frjohnk says:

    Ca$h-Money!:
    frjohnk,

    The ducks are fighting for a playoff spot?Aren’t they in first?

    My bad, the Stars.

    Thanks

  30. Woodguy says:

    Attn All “Gilbert is a 3rd pairing Dman and Gonchar took his job” people.

    Weaver’s 1st game back from a concussion is today and Gonchar sits.

    Gilbert’s been playing 2nd pair with Emelin and Gonchar’s been with young Beaulieu.

  31. fifthcartel says:

    Matheson had something up a couple days ago on whether the Oilers should move Pittsburgh’s first for someone farther along. It’s a good idea, but the prospects Matheson suggests are all players I wouldn’t give a 1st round pick up for.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/edmonton-oilers/Edmonton+Oilers/10772141/story.html

  32. Woodguy says:

    Lowetide: Hurricanes are going to trade their best defenseman soon and one imagines there will be plenty of auditioning going on, too.

    Faulk>Sekera

    Sekera said he wants to stay in CAR too.

    Might happen.

  33. Lowetide says:

    Woodguy: Faulk>Sekera

    Sekera said he wants to stay in CAR too.

    Might happen.

    Still, trading Sekera will have an impact. Plenty of track to go.

  34. oliveoilers says:

    The Artist formerly known as “NYCOIL”:
    LT,

    “The lesson here: big and slower, or small and fast, but not big and slower. ”

    I think you meant,” but not small and slower.”

    I think I’ve said it here about 15 times.
    I preferred Voracek at the time. I didn’t think Gagner would pan out. Then he had that Super Series and a terrific rookie year and I looked wrong and the Oilers right. In the long run, Voracek has turned out to be the better pick, as I originally thought, but I’d say Gagner covered the bet and can’t fault them for it.

    However, the 2007 draft turned out to be far stronger than was touted pre-draft and the misses afterwards: I mean, Plante had skating issues from the start. I don’t know why you take him at 15. Nash, well, he wanted to go to Cornell and the Oilers got in a spat with him right off the bat about him staying there. It was clear they weren’t on the same page as well. And just because Stu managed to turn that bullet into Marincin doesn’t forgive the flawed process.

    The opposite end of the spectrum to the Oilers’ 2007 draft of disaster is the Canadiens’

    2007 Entry121Ryan McDonaghDCretin Derham Hall H.S. (Minn.)2822990119132
    2007 Entry221Max PaciorettyLSioux City Musketeers [USHL]367130123253227
    2007 Entry432P.K. SubbanDBelleville Bulls [OHL]33253147200437
    2007 Entry653Olivier FortierCRimouski Oceanic [QMJHL]
    2007 Entry733Yannick WeberDKitchener Rangers [OHL]20115385380

    Holy hell is that ever a wonderful, wonderful draft.
    Of course Gainey then traded McDonagh for Gomez! Imagine the Habs had both McDonagh and Subban. They’d be Cup favorites at this point, at least among Eastern teams.

    I think of the words ‘hindsight’ and ‘presentism’ when I read posts, good as it is, like this. You’re basically saying that had we picked every good player at the draft, even the ones no-one had any idea would be any good, we would be cup favourites.

    Not only do you have to make picks for players that are relevant in the game as it was at the current time, you have to also have one eye on the direction of style of play that hockey is headed in. Of course, great players are always in fashion, no matter the style of play. But spending all your pocket money on one style of player, and the wrong one at that is the killer.

    I think MacT gets this draft, minus the Oilers #1, as assessment. He could protect himself by getting rid of that Pitts pick for a goalie for a start.

  35. Woodguy says:

    supernova:
    I think we should work on building a scouting Manifesto as a blogger / commentary group.

    Things like skating issues.

    Romulus and I have been discussing something similar on Twitter.

    We need to really dissect what we think is good and bad scouting.

    Skating is the first issue that a scout should look at In my opinion.

    Now skating can also be coached but I have been told skating coaches see certain things as huge red flags and other things as very workable.

    Things like acceleration through the first 4 steps. Maintaining edges, etc

    Then we carry it to the next step.

    1) Does the player score at a higher rate than everyone else available

    2) See #1

    3) How is their skating?

    4) See #1

  36. frjohnk says:

    Woodguy:
    Attn All “Gilbert is a 3rd pairing Dman and Gonchar took his job” people.

    Weaver’s 1st game back from a concussion is today and Gonchar sits.

    Gilbert’s been playing 2nd pair with Emelin and Gonchar’s been with young Beaulieu.

    Ran Gilbert through the “Hero Charts”, all visuals show him as a top 4 d man, Points/60 show him right at top pairing.

  37. Woodguy says:

    Lowetide: Hurricanes are going to trade their best defenseman soon and one imagines there will be plenty of auditioning going on, too.

    Goalies LT.

    CAR has 2 (albeit w/ Khudobin struggling a bit)

    ARI has none.

    EDM have 1/2 (once in a while either goalie has a game over. 900)

    It’s ARI.

  38. oliveoilers says:

    verdad2.0:
    Btw, not taking the Schneider trade was another fundamental MacTavish blunder.
    Does no one on this site get the concept of present value.
    Schneider versus the non-goaltending the Oilers have endured that last two seasons.
    Waiting another five years for defensemen to mature can’t be endured by Oiler fans any longer.

    Please stop beating the Schneider drum. Gillis had no intention of trading him to us, hence the price of our 1st, 2nd and a young gun.

    We would still suck, but without Nurse coming, our 2nd in a deep draft this year and probably Eberle.

    Gillis sold him for just the #9 OV to NJ.

  39. Woodguy says:

    fifthcartel:
    Matheson had something up a couple days ago on whether the Oilers should move Pittsburgh’s first for someone farther along. It’s a good idea, but the prospects Matheson suggests are all players I wouldn’t give a 1st round pick up for.

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/edmonton-oilers/Edmonton+Oilers/10772141/story.html

    Matty having a love affair with 6’5″ mean Dmen?

    I’m shocked!!!

    I’m shocked he didn’t suggest Engellend.

    He actually mentioned Jessiman.

    That’s Matty!

  40. Woodguy says:

    Ben: Well, they won’t be the only ones.

    Good point.

  41. Woodguy says:

    MacT : “We can’t have 6Dmen making 4MM/yr”

    MacT then trades the only Dman who’s actually worth $4MM+/yr.

    Good job Mac!

  42. verdad2.0 says:

    oliveoilers,

    Don’t you get the most basic point here – Schneider can actually play.
    Draft picks are just “maybe’s”.
    No reasoanable probability that Nurse will actually contribute to winning games in the next three years.

    This team with Schneider would have been unequivocally better over the past two years.

    When people value the present they get results.
    Draft picks have simply been a means to rationalize Oiler management incompetence.

  43. Lowetide says:

    Woodguy: Goalies LT.

    CAR has 2 (albeit w/ Khudobin struggling a bit)

    ARI has none.

    EDM have 1/2 (once in a while either goalie has a game over. 900)

    It’s ARI.

    Arizona for sure, as I mentioned above. I don’t think Carolina is going to have the sustain needed, especially when they trade a good defender. Injuries, real or imagined, and of course they simply aren’t that good.

  44. G Money says:

    A follow on note about last night – which despite the 2-0 lead in the first, was a defensive tire fire from the Oilers from start to finish.

    The difference in the game was that the Oilers decided that a prevent defense was the way to go in the third. Which might work if they were a team that could play defense competently in general, BUT THEY CAN’T.

    The team had two opportunities in my books to right the ship: the first was on the first and only PP in the second period. That may have been the worst and most ineffective PP I have ever seen this team play, and that’s saying something.

    The lack of focus and try was evident, and my buddy turned to me and said, “The Oilers are going to lose” and I said “Yes they are.”

    The second opportunity they had was in the third period after Calgary got their first goal. If the idea of playing “prevent” was to stand, the Oilers had to get a third goal. Since they gave one up instead, that was the point to take a moment, compose themselves, and go back to matching the Flames’ intensity (such as it was).

    Nope.

    Awful. I thought Petry had a poor game – some good moments but some really bad ones as well. Ference was bad. Klefbom was not good. Jultz had one good moment and a bunch of Jultzing moments. And Aulie was Aulie Aulie Awful-lie. Holy gords he was shite.

    (I didn’t notice Fayne at all, not even once – I guess that’s a good thing?)

    *** SILVER LINING ALERT ***

    Here’s my view on the balance of the game last night:

    1 – The Oilers would solve 90% of their woes by replacing their two of their three worst defenders (FSN has become SFA – how appropriate) with decent NHL defenders. I would say 70% of the Flames “offense” last night was set up by the Oiler D inability to make a pass out of the zone. Over and over. Promising setups ruined. Free chances given away.

    It was embarrassing.

    It was cringeworthy.

    It was constantly sphincter tightening. My sphincter is still exhausted.

    2 – The inability to attack the Flames line with speed was also evident. Especially in contrast – the 30% of the times the Flames created their own opportunities instead of having them gifted to them by the Oiler D, it was because they attacked the line with speed.

    The Oilers looked like the Kings, but without the size or tenacity on the puck to play that heavy style of game. The lack of a healthy Hall was evident of course, but even guys like Pouliot, Nuge, and Klinkhammer looked pretty slow out there.

    I wonder if that’s part of the Eakins hangover? These are fast players, and they can’t blame travel fatigue. Slow = tentative, or slow = thinking too much?

    The Oilers have now given away 20 points to two wretched teams: ARI and CGY. Think about that for a second. 20 points. From a team that only has 35 right now.

  45. Tire Fire says:

    verdad2.0:
    Btw, not taking the Schneider trade was another fundamental MacTavish blunder.
    Does no one on this site get the concept of present value.

    verdad2.0:

    Stop concentrating on the mindless details of prospective 18 year olds and inane statistics.

    From hiring Eakins, to drafting and playing Draisatl, bungling Gagner and Petry assets to the profane give away for nothing ofPerron,Nikitin and Ference, etc.

    Is this like the XP to Vista “upgrade?” Should we be missing Verdad 1.0, or was it just as bad?

  46. zatch says:

    Nabby waived. I don’t know when NHL teams will stop putting money on goalies in their very late 30’s who haven’t posted good numbers in several seasons. Khabbi, Nabby, Marty all jump out.

  47. Lowetide says:

    The Schneider trade was there for Edmonton and they turned it down? Do we have confirmation of that? I either don’t recall it or haven’t seen it.

  48. LMHF#1 says:

    This org once picked the legendary Steve Kelly over some guy who’s still playing in the NHL because of “skating”. You have to be sure of what is meant by that before emphasizing it.

  49. rich says:

    Woodguy:
    MacT : “We can’t have 6Dmen making 4MM/yr”

    MacT then trades the only Dman who’s actually worth $4MM+/yr.

    Good job Mac!

    Badda boom.

    This is why we’ll still be wandering in the desert for several more years.

  50. fifthcartel says:

    Woodguy,

    I was halfway done reading it when I started sensing a theme with his suggestions. The only non-6’5 defensemen mentioned was a 0.911 goalie in the AHL and Karl Alzner. Actually, Martin Jones too but I doubt they’d get a 1st + scoring forward when they couldn’t get that for Bernier.

    They probably move that first in a package for Phaneuf.

  51. oliveoilers says:

    verdad2.0:
    oliveoilers,

    Don’t you get the most basic point here – Schneider can actually play.
    Draft picks are just “maybe’s”.
    No reasoanable probability that Nurse will actually contribute to winning games in the nextthree years.

    This team with Schneider would have been unequivocally better over the past two years.

    When people value the present they get results.
    Draft picks have simply been a means to rationalize Oiler management incompetence.

    Schneider:

    NHL GP pre NJ: 90
    AV SV%: .926
    Cost: #7OV, 2015 2nd, Good roster player.

    Scrivens:

    NHL GP pre EDM: 51
    With EDM last year: 72
    AV SV% pre EDM: .916
    With EDM last year: .916
    Cost: 3rd round pick.

    I do not mind the gamble MacT made, only that he had no contingency plan. The rest of your argument is hyperbole.

    You are correct that Schneider is good on a bad team. Well, he would still be good on a bad team here.

    *Fun Fact* Schneider had 10PIM in 8GP with Ambri-Piotta in the Swiss A League during the last lock out! Gooooooon!

  52. Woodguy says:

    Lowetide: Arizona for sure, as I mentioned above. I don’t think Carolina is going to have the sustain needed, especially when they trade a good defender. Injuries, real or imagined, and of course they simply aren’t that good.

    Score Adjusted Corsi since December 1st.

    L.A 55.8
    DET 54
    T.B 55.3
    WPG 53.9
    CHI 53.1
    NYI 55.5
    STL 54.3
    WSH 52
    PIT 52.2
    FLA 52.5
    OTT 50.3
    BOS 51.2
    DAL 52.8
    ANA 52.4
    NSH 51.8
    NYR 51.5
    CAR 49.7
    PHI 49.9
    S.J 49.7
    MIN 50.3
    VAN 49.6
    ARI 47.5
    EDM 46.1
    MTL 46.8
    CGY 46.7
    N.J 45.3
    CBJ 44.9
    TOR 44.5
    COL 43.4
    BUF 37.1

    Goaltending trumps all.

    NJD a dark horse for 29th, but their G’s are too good as well.

    I’m telling ya LT, CAR finishes ahead of TOR.

  53. Woodguy says:

    G Money,

    Nice report.

    Thanks.

  54. Woodguy says:

    fifthcartel:
    Woodguy,

    I was halfway done reading it when I started sensing a theme with his suggestions. The only non-6’5 defensemen mentioned was a 0.911 goalie in the AHL and Karl Alzner. Actually, Martin Jones too but I doubt they’d get a 1st + scoring forward when they couldn’t get that for Bernier.

    They probably move that first in a package for Phaneuf.

    I think that’s a very good guess.

  55. oliveoilers says:

    Lowetide:
    The Schneider trade was there for Edmonton and they turned it down? Do we have confirmation of that? I either don’t recall it or haven’t seen it.

    Darren Dreger (@DarrenDreger) June 30, 2013 … Told asking price for Schneider to Oilers was the 7, a 2nd and a good young player.

  56. The Artist formerly known as "NYCOIL" says:

    oliveoilers: I think of the words ‘hindsight’ and ‘presentism’ when I read posts, good as it is, like this.You’re basically saying that had we picked every good player at the draft, even the ones no-one had any idea would be any good, we would be cup favourites.

    Not only do you have to make picks for players that are relevant in the game as it was at the current time, you have to also have one eye on the direction of style of play that hockey is headed in.Of course, great players are always in fashion, no matter the style of play.But spending all your pocket money on one style of player, and the wrong one at that is the killer.

    I think MacT gets this draft, minus the Oilers #1, as assessment.He could protect himself by getting rid of that Pitts pick for a goalie for a start.

    If you think of the words “hindsight” and “presentism” when you read my post, you didn’t read my post properly.

    I did not make any hindsight criticisms of the Oilers’ picks. I made valid criticisms about what we knew at the time they picked their guys. I even gave them Gagner as win and said “he covered his bet.”

    I presented the opposite end of the spectrum for Montreal. They had a ridiculous draft, but haven’t been able to replicate that kind of success since then. And they definitely get dinged for giving away McDonagh.

    Nowhere did I say the Oilers should have been as successful as Montreal. I just said, “weak draft year” was thrown about a lot to describe that draft, but in fact, it was pretty solid. And the Oilers missed with both their later 1st rounders. They looked like reach picks at the time and wound up being duds. Nash- I mean he was committed to Cornell. If you hadn’t spoken to him about changing his mind beforehand and you weren’t going to be patient enough to let him go to college, why trade up to grab him? Plante? Don’t even get me started. He was projected late 1st/early 2nd due to foot speed issues.

    Edit- That sounded snarky. Sorry. I wasn’t being snarky. I meant that my post then did not convey to you what I intended. I was holding up two ends of the spectrum. No one can expect a draft as good as Montreal’s. But we can expect better than the Oilers’. And the point of LT’s post was to discuss that draft as costing the team now, which I wholeheartedly agree with.

  57. Lowetide says:

    oliveoilers: Darren Dreger (@DarrenDreger) June 30, 2013 … Told asking price for Schneider to Oilers was the 7, a 2nd and a good young player.

    And MacT turned down 7, the 2nd and Marincin? That’s what I heard was discussed but haven’t read who killed the deal.

  58. speeds says:

    Lowetide, from the article: Edmonton chose wrong (Voracek>Gagner) but it’s ridiculous to be critical in hindsight and 89 looked damn good at the time. Looking back, it is true he was small and unfast which is a deadly combination. The lesson here: big and slower, or small and fast, but not small and slower. Fair?

    I think you’re finding a way to be charitable. Nearly everyone had Voracek higher, EDM went with Gagner. I agree that Gagner was, by no means, a bust, but they didn’t pick the guy many considered the better prospect at that time, and it’s not accurate to claim that people are only saying that with hindsight.

    There are a few lessons with Gagner/Voracek, and one of the most important IMO is that placing a premium on C vs. W has its drawbacks, as illustrated here. Yes, of course you’d ideally like a C, but passing on a superior W in favor of a C because you feel you really need a C might not seem like such a hot idea if the W develops into an elite W vs. a C who plays but lower on the depth chart.

  59. oliveoilers says:

    The Artist formerly known as “NYCOIL”: If you think of the words “hindsight” and “presentism” when you read my post, you didn’t read my post properly.

    I did not make any hindsight criticisms of the Oilers’ picks. I made valid criticisms about what we knew at the time they picked their guys.I even gave them Gagner as win and said “he covered his bet.”

    I presented the opposite end of the spectrum for Montreal. They had a ridiculous draft, but haven’t been able to replicate that kind of success since then. And they definitely get dinged for giving away McDonagh.

    Nowhere did I say the Oilers should have been as successful as Montreal. I just said, “weak draft year” was thrown about a lot to describe that draft, but in fact, it was pretty solid. And the Oilers missed with both their later 1st rounders. They looked like reach picks at the time and wound up being duds. Nash- I mean he was committed to Cornell. If you hadn’t spoken to him about changing his mind beforehand and you weren’t going to be patient enough to let him go to college, why trade up to grab him? Plante? Don’t even get me started. He was projected late 1st/early 2nd due to foot speed issues.

    Only I don’t think MTL is a good comparison. For one, there wasn’t a nuclear arms race in the east for water bowsers. This allowed MTL to look at the smaller skilled players later in the draft. We drafted consensus smallish forwards with our high picks then said “oops, better get a side of beef with that.” And it didn’t matter if they could actually play or not. We were reactive to the game and the market without doing our homework. We also made decisions based on things other than winning.

    You don’t suck at drafting one minute then decide to draft like Detroit the next without changing anything.

    Would have liked Subban, though!

  60. Lowetide says:

    speeds: I think you’re finding a way to be charitable.Nearly everyone had Voracek higher, EDM went with Gagner.I agree that Gagner was, by no means, a bust, but they didn’t pick the guy many considered the better prospect at that time, and it’s not accurate to claim that people are only saying that with hindsight.

    There are a few lessons with Gagner/Voracek, and one of the most important IMO is that placing a premium on C vs. W has its drawbacks, as illustrated here.Yes, of course you’d ideally like a C, but passing on a superior W in favor of a C because you feel you really need a C might not seem like such a hot idea if the W develops into an elite W vs. a C who plays but lower on the depth chart.

    Bob McKenzie had Voracek one spot ahead of Gagner, I don’t think that’s being charitable I think that’s both being in the same range.

    http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=7066

    The only guy who stands out as being a major issue on that McKenzie list is Cherepanov. Interesting that both Plante and Nash weren’t on the BM 30.

  61. The Artist formerly known as "NYCOIL" says:

    oliveoilers,

    I don’t know if you saw my edit. In case you didn’t.

    Edit- That sounded snarky. Sorry. I wasn’t being snarky. I meant that my post then did not convey to you what I intended. I was holding up two ends of the spectrum. No one can expect a draft as good as Montreal’s. But we can expect better than the Oilers’. And the point of LT’s post was to discuss that draft as costing the team now, which I wholeheartedly agree with.

  62. Woodguy says:

    Lowetide: Arizona for sure, as I mentioned above. I don’t think Carolina is going to have the sustain needed, especially when they trade a good defender. Injuries, real or imagined, and of course they simply aren’t that good.

    You might be right with CAR.

    PDO since Dec 1st.

    MTL 103.6
    WSH 103
    STL 102.2
    COL 102.2
    WPG 102.1
    NYR 101.5
    NSH 101.4
    CHI 101.1
    OTT 101
    T.B 100.7
    BOS 100.7
    PHI 100.6
    ANA 100.5
    N.J 100.5
    CGY 100.3
    DAL 100.2
    CBJ 100.2
    DET 100.1
    S.J 99.5
    VAN 99.3
    TOR 99.2
    NYI 99
    EDM 98.4
    PIT 98.2
    L.A 98
    FLA 98
    BUF 97.8
    CAR 97.7
    MIN 97.1
    ARI 95.6

    ARI with a big bullet here.

    Also, MA Fleury remembered he’s MA Fleury.

    If he goes full Fleury PIT could easily be gone in the first round.

    If the playoffs started today PIT would play NYR.

    I’d have to pick NYR in that one.

    The Fleury blind spot has cost PIT about 2 cups imo, maybe 3.

  63. PhrankLee says:

    rich: Woodguy:
    MacT : “We can’t have 6Dmen making 4MM/yr”
    MacT then trades the only Dman who’s actually worth $4MM+/yr.
    Good job Mac!
    Badda boom.
    This is why we’ll still be wandering in the desert for several more years.

    Jesus, Feaster… You dont see us creeping your damn facebook, do you?

    Get over it. You’re in Tampa now so leave us alone already!

    ha ha.

  64. oliveoilers says:

    Lowetide: And MacT turned down 7, the 2nd and Marincin? That’s what I heard was discussed but haven’t read who killed the deal.

    I can’t find who nixed the deal, but it was from within the Oilers organisation, all articles agree. I did read one from the Beaumont Times (whatever that is) that MacT was the only one on board with the price! But no source is given in the paper.

  65. TheOtherJohn says:

    Not sure how anyone can use LAK 2007 draft and “mistake” in same sentence. Kings drafted a 1st line winger (Simmonds), 2 regulars on their SC championship teams in the 4th round (King & Martinez) and a 18:48 TOI d man (Hickey) on one of the (oxymoron alert) stronger EC playoff teams.

    1200 total NHL games by King drafted players in 07 draft

    That would be 5+ years of Oiler picks

  66. Lowetide says:

    oliveoilers: I can’t find who nixed the deal, but it was from within the Oilers organisation, all articles agree.I did read one from the Beaumont Times (whatever that is) that MacT was the only one on board with the price!But no source is given in the paper.

    Ah, thanks for digging. I’m absolutely against paying heavily for a goalie but expect we’ll see some goalering moves this summer.

  67. oliveoilers says:

    The Artist formerly known as “NYCOIL”:
    oliveoilers,

    I don’t know if you saw my edit. In case you didn’t.

    Edit- That sounded snarky. Sorry. I wasn’t being snarky. I meant that my post then did not convey to you what I intended. I was holding up two ends of the spectrum. No one can expect a draft as good as Montreal’s. But we can expect better than the Oilers’. And the point of LT’s post was to discuss that draft as costing the team now, which I wholeheartedly agree with.

    No worries, I didn’t take it as such!

    The more we analyse, the bigger the can of worms seems to get. It looks like one of those pin boards the detectives in movies have with pieces of string everywhere connecting this to that.

  68. oliveoilers says:

    Lowetide: Ah, thanks for digging. I’m absolutely against paying heavily for a goalie but expect we’ll see some goalering moves this summer.

    LT, that Pitts pick is MADE for a goalie. I’m dying on this hill!

  69. speeds says:

    Lowetide: Bob McKenzie had Voracek one spot ahead of Gagner, I don’t think that’s being charitable I think that’s both being in the same range.

    http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=7066

    The only guy who stands out as being a major issue on that McKenzie list is Cherepanov. Interesting that both Plante and Nash weren’t on the BM 30.

    Numerically close is not the same as being actually close. Would you say that Ryan was in the same range as Crosby, just because they were drafted numerically close together? Hanifin is rated 3rd by many, you think it would be “in the range” to take him ahead of Eichel? I don’t.

    We’ve had this disagreement before, in fact about the last 2 EDM picks (to some extent). I don’t think Nurse was “in range” with Nichushkin just because they were numerically close together. No, that doesn’t mean I think Nurse isn’t a good prospect, and no that doesn’t mean it’s impossible Nurse turns out better than Nichushkin. And while I thought the difference between Bennett and Draisaitl was not nearly as big as the difference between Crosby and Ryan, it was there IMO.

  70. blainer says:

    verdad2.0:
    oliveoilers,

    Don’t you get the most basic point here – Schneider can actually play.
    Draft picks are just “maybe’s”.
    No reasoanable probability that Nurse will actually contribute to winning games in the nextthree years.

    This team with Schneider would have been unequivocally better over the past two years.

    When people value the present they get results.
    Draft picks have simply been a means to rationalize Oiler management incompetence.

    Goaltending IS the most important position period. I said before the season began that our season and Eakins job will come down to goaltending and it has. MacT HAS to part with whatever it takes to get our Carey Price. Until that happens we will be forever spinning our wheels.

  71. eidy says:

    2007 was a killer. Gagner was fine, but the other 2 were reaches where you can’t reach.

    Not that anyone asked, but here is my hopes to avoid some landmines

    1. Sign Matt O’Connor and lets avoid drafting goalies in the top 3 rounds.

    2. Top 2 choices are obvious. after that I am fine with Stome, Hanafin, Marner, Stracha,

    3. Pittsburgh choices and 2nd round pick: Unless one of the top D drop, like Provorov or Jeromy Roy drops to here, there should be lots of forwards available. I would prefer centres, but there should be some talent at the end of 2 and into 3. Chlapik, Svechnikov, Debrusk, Meier, Harsins, Sprong

    4. Hope Dergachyov lasts until round 3

    5. Connor Hobbs in 4th

    6. Stay risk averse

    I also suspect that they will be active on NCAA free agents like Kenny Morrison and I suspect they will look at AHL contracts like they did for Winquist and Homberg. Maybe Colby Cave and Parker Bowles

  72. Dee Dee says:

    The Oiler’s are a lazy team with bad habits and they prefer playing pond hockey instead of a solid defensive game.

    It starts from the forwards who insist on high risk plays that inevitably cause turn overs and odd man rushes against themselves.

    The goaltender/defense spend the game defending this trash and get worn down simply by the large number of turnovers and odd man rushes they are defending against.

    This causes extra pressure on the D, less response time, panicked passes and clearing attempts and magnifies the problems even more.

    Veterans are brought in and when they get frustrated and tell the truth of the situation are immediately shipped out on the next train to Happytown.

    Veterans like Nikitin, and Fayne, and Ference are capable defenders and in fact, are quite good at their jobs. They weren’t ever trained on how to defend a Total Shit Show.

    The Emperor has no clothes. The Young Guns can’t, or won’t play a responsible style of game, and the Management are locked in a vicious circle of:

    Fire the coach, Fire the veterans, Fire the goalie, repeat a few times.
    Fire the GM, Fire the Scouts, Fire the trainer.

    Having worked for several Shit Shows over the years one thing I’ve learned is that IT NEVER GETS BETTER until you remove the incompetence at the top.

    Unfortunately for the Oiler’s the problem is with the Owner and his President.

    The Owner only has 1 real responsibility, and that’s to make sure he has the right guy running things. He could start to affect change with one snap of his fingers.

    So if the bloody owner doesn’t give a crap and he’s happy to sit on his pile of money made from his shiite team, dreaming of the days that it will turn into a bigger pile of money made from his shiny new free arena, then this measly little Tier 2 fan is out of here.

  73. gogliano says:

    Woodguy: You might be right with CAR.

    PDO since Dec 1st.

    MTL103.6
    WSH103
    STL102.2
    COL102.2
    WPG102.1
    NYR101.5
    NSH101.4
    CHI101.1
    OTT101
    T.B100.7
    BOS100.7
    PHI100.6
    ANA100.5
    N.J100.5
    CGY100.3
    DAL100.2
    CBJ100.2
    DET100.1
    S.J99.5
    VAN99.3
    TOR99.2
    NYI99
    EDM98.4
    PIT98.2
    L.A98
    FLA98
    BUF97.8
    CAR97.7
    MIN97.1
    ARI95.6

    ARI with a big bullet here.

    Also, MA Fleury remembered he’s MA Fleury.

    If he goes full Fleury PIT could easily be gone in the first round.

    If the playoffs started today PIT would play NYR.

    I’d have to pick NYR in that one.

    The Fleury blind spot has cost PIT about 2 cups imo, maybe 3.

    Mike Smith had a terrible December (0.852) but he has been trending upwards. 0.894 in January but that is dragged down from the blowout in OTT yesterday (5 goals against on 20 shots). 4/10 games over .925 save percentage. He has been playing well enough to wins games here and there. He wasn’t in December (except the Edmonton game, because Oilers, his only above .900 game).

  74. zatch says:

    gogliano,

    You’re still describing a bad goalie.

  75. Lowetide says:

    speeds: Numerically close is not the same as being actually close.Would you say that Ryan was in the same range as Crosby, just because they were drafted numerically close together?Hanifin is rated 3rd by many, you think it would be “in the range” to take him ahead of Eichel?I don’t.

    We’ve had this disagreement before, in fact about the last 2 EDM picks (to some extent).I don’t think Nurse was “in range” with Nichushkin just because they were numerically close together.No, that doesn’t mean I think Nurse isn’t a good prospect, and no that doesn’t mean it’s impossible Nurse turns out better than Nichushkin. And while I thought the difference between Bennett and Draisaitl was not nearly as big as the difference between Crosby and Ryan, it was there IMO.

    I do remember you were strong on Voracek:

    http://hockeysymposium.blogspot.ca/2007/06/2005-top-36.html

    and certainly on Nichushkin. For me, those are great points and you may be correct in regard to both (certainly Voracek) but I’m not able to see why Nurse was such a poor pick compared to Nichushkin. As this is my blog, and I have no wish to steal your knowledge, I go with what God gave me. 🙂

    Beyond that speeds, I don’t have much to say on the issue. The Oilers drafting of Nurse over Nichushkin looked questionable a year ago, perhaps less so this season. This blog is devoted to waiting five years and there are likely going to be ebbs and flows along the way.

    As for 2007, I think the Gagner-Voracek debate turned on 89 being unable to learn center. I’m not certain it was possible to see that back in 2007 but that was very much a strong call by you.

  76. D says:

    G Money:
    The Oilers have now given away 20 points to two wretched teams: ARI and CGY. Think about that for a second. 20 points. From a team that only has 35 right now.

    Those 20 points would have put the Oil in the thick of a playoff race this season. Valid point you raise there.

  77. godot10 says:

    blainer: Goaltending IS the most important position period. I said before the season began that our season and Eakins job will come down to goaltending and it has. MacT HAS to part with whatever it takes to get our Carey Price. Until that happens we will be forever spinning our wheels.

    Chicago and LA have won 2 Cups each with good but not great goaltenders. Detroit won a Cup with Chris Osgood.

    There pretty much is only one or two elite goaltenders. If you are waiting for Carey Price, you are waiting for a miracle.

    With the Eakins mistake, Schneider would have just been another David Perron. Schneider, like Perron, had two years to UFA status. He would have never re-signed with the dytfunctional incompetent behind the bench.

  78. rich says:

    PhrankLee,

    Ok, maybe a little over the top (my comments).

    But, you get good players, you keep good players.

    Letting Petry go for magic beans extends the rebuild.

    Particularly if you’re going to force Nurse to learn in the NHL instead of develop in the AHL.

    Wil also cost you more than that to replace Petry w/quality.

    Just sayin.

  79. PhrankLee says:

    rich,

    Yes. I have a feeling the 25th pick is supposed to return a warmer body than Peron. (risky)

    My point is I think the extension is full on given the trading of a productive, abrasive top 6 fwd under 30.

  80. blainer says:

    godot10: Chicago and LA have won 2 Cups each with good but not great goaltenders.Detroit won a Cup with Chris Osgood.

    There pretty much is only one or two elite goaltenders.If you are waiting for Carey Price, you are waiting for a miracle.

    With the Eakins mistake, Schneider would have just been another David Perron.Schneider, like Perron, had two years to UFA status.He would have never re-signed with the dytfunctional incompetent behind the bench.

    Agreed. That may have happened. I’m not saying Schnieder.. at this point that ship has sailed. What I am saying is get it done right now. Do whatever it takes to find that goalie. Lots of options out there we just need to find a dance partner.

  81. Lowetide says:

    PhrankLee:
    rich,

    Yes. I have a feeling the 25th pick is supposed to return a warmer body than Peron. (risky)

    My point is I think the extension is full on given the trading of a productive, abrasive top 6 fwd under 30.

    I felt that would be the case at the beginning but the more I look at this draft the better it would be to save that pick and use it. This is a monster.

  82. gogliano says:

    zatch:
    gogliano,

    You’re still describing a bad goalie.

    A career .910.

  83. Lowetide says:

    Weekend Update, not a lot of activity but Leon is posting some boxcars

    http://oilersnation.com/2015/2/1/weekend-update-9dc0e547-f42c-4777-8f1d-040bf767a3de

  84. verdad2.0 says:

    oliveoilers,

    I don’t see the hyperbole.

    Not trading for a comepentent goalie , not flushing Gagner and Dubnyk not , avoiding Ference and failing to retain Horcoff and Hemsky at reasonable were inexcusable blunders by MacTavish.

    All on his watch.

    Add to that the dysfunction of hiring Eakins.

    Feel free to add your other favourite MacTavis blunder more recently – Nikitin, trading Perron, blacklisting Marincin, etc.

    Two unavoidable points – MacTavish should not be allowed to extend the re-build another decade , there will be no Oiler fans left if he pursues that strategy. Picks must be used to get real players, not the opposite. Second, the core needs to be gutted for players with grit and responsibility.

    Both of these require inspired management to turn around the Oilers.
    Finding that management starts with MacTavish’s dismissal.

  85. verdad2.0 says:

    Drafts are fool’s gold.
    See George Allen.

  86. PhrankLee says:

    Lowetide: I felt that would be the case at the beginning but the more I look at this draft the better it would be to save that pick and use it. This is a monster.

    Resulting in not competing for a spot next year but threatening wild card in 17/18. Best guess scenario.

  87. verdad2.0 says:

    PhrankLee,

    A working definition of insanity if the objective is to compete.

    Utterly unfair to the OIler fan base.

  88. Bruce McCurdy says:

    Lowetide: And MacT turned down 7, the 2nd and Marincin? That’s what I heard was discussed but haven’t read who killed the deal.

    I have it on good authority that when MacT was about to agree to that deal, that Gillis then said “oh yeah, and Hall”. Truth be told that Gillis was never ever going to trade that goalie to Edmonton, he asked for a higher pick than Jersey’s plus another major pick plus another significant asset and at some point — who knows when — he wound up making an offer MacT had to refuse. He wound up trading the goalie out of conference for a lesser return than he could have got.

    Too bad he likely fucked over his own team in the process. He got the end result he so richly deserved. Fuck Mike Gillis and the horse he rode in (and out) on.

  89. verdad2.0 says:

    Bruce McCurdy,

    Time will tell if that belief in Hall was justified.

  90. Hammers says:

    If they make there 1st pick who should play no later than year 2 we are waiting another 4-5 years for there other picks development let alone making the team . Some of us won’t live that long so being impatient and a bit selfish I would sooner the Pits pick and our 2nd be used seperately along with a tradeable asset to upgrade goal & our “D” . With the forwards we have plus Leon , this years 1st and at least 1 from the AHL team, our forwards should be OK . WE NEED A GOALIE & WE NEED 2 “D” other than NURSE plus who is in the AHL .To keep waiting for a contender is one thing but for a playoff team is something different . 10 years next year and that’s a joke .

  91. Lowetide says:

    Bruce McCurdy: I have it on good authority that when MacT was about to agree to that deal, that Gillis then said “oh yeah, and Hall”. Truth be told that Gillis was never ever going to trade that goalie t oEdmonton, he asked for a higher pick than Jersey’s plus another majort pick plus anothwer significant asset and wound up trading the goalie out of conference for a lesser return than he could have got.

    Too bad he likely fucked over his own team in the process. He got the end result he so richly deserved. Fuck Mike Gillis and the horse he rode in on.

    Yeah, that’s kind of my read too. Strung along by an idiot riding a horse. I don’t know that MacT is in a good light there, but suspect there was tomfoolery from the VAN side.

  92. Lowetide says:

    PhrankLee: Resulting in not competing for a spot next year but threatening wild card in 17/18. Best guess scenario.

    Meh. there are other ways to get a goaltender beyond trading a first-round pick.

  93. Pouzar says:

    Bruce McCurdy,

    I take Nurse over them all. Thank you Mr. Gillis.

  94. Lowetide says:

    verdad2.0:
    Bruce McCurdy,

    Time will tell if that beliefin Hall was justified.

    Really? Man I do not get the Hall hate onliine. An absolute non-starter.

  95. Pouzar says:

    Lowetide: Meh. there are other ways to get a goaltender beyond trading a first-round pick.

    This. See Hutchinson in Winnipeg. They picked him up off the scrap heap and told them he would have to start in the ECHL. Goalies are all around us. Beat the pavement and go find one MacT.

  96. zatch says:

    gogliano,

    Ok, a clearly below average one then.

    He has basically had two alright seasons beyond his outlier season. I honestly think that .910 may still be a slight overestimation of his true talent level at this point.

  97. Bruce McCurdy says:

    verdad2.0:
    Bruce McCurdy,

    Time will tell if that beliefin Hall was justified.

    Huh?

  98. Mr DeBakey says:

    eidy: 1. Sign Matt O’Connor and lets avoid drafting goalies in the top 3 rounds.

    4 UFA Goalies, listed from youngest to eldest, with GP GAA Sv%:

    MATEJ MACHOVSKY
    AGE = 21
    HEIGHT 189 cm / 6’2″
    WEIGHT 85 kg / 187 lbs
    HC Plzen 38 2.30 0.919

    MANTAS ARMALIS
    AGE = 22
    HEIGHT 194 cm / 6’4″
    WEIGHT 88 kg / 194 lbs
    Djurgården 13 2.65 0.919

    ALEXANDER SHARYCHENKOV
    AGE = 23
    HEIGHT 193 cm / 6’4″
    WEIGHT 90 kg / 198 lbs
    Dynamo Moskva 12 1.79 0.936

    EMIL GARIPOV
    AGE = 23
    HEIGHT 187 cm / 6’2″
    WEIGHT 94 kg / 207 lbs
    Ak Bars Kazan 20 1.85 0.932

  99. verdad2.0 says:

    If the OIlers are ever going to compete serioulsy in the short run they are going to have to make some fundamental judgements about some of their existing assets.
    Hall has to be on the table in that context.

    For an example, would you trade him straight up for Oliver Ekman-Larsson? I would And it would have been easier to rationalize if Perron were still here.

  100. Bruce McCurdy says:

    Lowetide: Yeah, that’s kind of my read too. Strung along by an idiot riding a horse. I don’t know that MacT is in a good light there, but suspect there was tomfoolery from the VAN side.

    Yeah. Bear in mind that when I say “I have it on good authority” I’m really saying “I’m making shit up” but my read of that draft floor activity was that Gillis was trying to bend MacT over the draft table. Wound up being a waste of time with the added bonus of making his rival look unhappy with his own netminder.

    2014-15 to date: Schneider .922, Dubnyk .919.

    But at least Schneider has turned New Jersey into an instant contender. No, wait …

  101. PhrankLee says:

    Lowetide: Meh. there are other ways to get a goaltender beyond trading a first-round pick.

    True but having to get a #1G and 2 or 3 of your top 4 D in one offseason is a mighty, mighty tall order.

  102. verdad2.0 says:

    Bruce McCurdy,

    Schneider with the Oilers, sans Eakins, would have been a much different team.
    Plus flushing Gagner and Dubnyk in the same summer, then real progress would have been achieved.
    It was right there to be had.

  103. Bruce McCurdy says:

    verdad2.0: Not trading for a comepentent goalie , not flushing Gagner and Dubnyk not , avoiding Ference and failing to retain Horcoff and Hemsky at reasonable were inexcusable blunders by MacTavish.

    1) Scrivens was a career .917 & Fasth a career .915 when Oilers traded for them.
    2) He DID flush Gagner
    3) He DID flush Dubnyk
    4) I will defer to your 20/10 hindsight on Ference, though his presence allowed more time to develop Klefbom & Marincin in AHL &/or Nurse in OHL
    5) Horcoff at “reasonable” was 2 more years with a cap hit of $5.5
    6) Hemsky at “reasonable” was highly unlikely, they’d already retained him for 2 years & the team had gone nowhere so they set him free.

    But yeah, inexcusable blunders, every last one of them when looked at in a certain light (through a “MacT is an irredeemable dope” filter).

  104. speeds says:

    Lowetide,

    Well, thanks, but I also had Voracek ahead of Kane. Regardless, my point isn’t about my list, or my thoughts, but instead that it’s not merely hindsight to say Voracek is a better player now, he was thought of as the better prospect at the time as well, based on memory even beyond Bob Mac’s list.

    How close is enough that players are in the same tier, well, good question, and you’re right that it often varies from one person to another.

    I don’t think that you can blame this season on the 2007 draft though, I think that is way too simplistic. Would it have helped to draft better, sure, it always would, but there have been any number of things along the way that have contributed as much.

  105. oliveoilers says:

    verdad2.0:
    If the OIlers are ever going to compete serioulsy in the short run they are going to have to make some fundamental judgements about some of their existing assets.
    Hall has to be on the table in that context.

    For an example,would you trade him straight up for Oliver Ekman-Larsson?I would And it would have been easier to rationalize if Perron were still here.

    Mr Verdad 2.0, I suspect you to be trolling, you cad and bounder sir! I agree that Hall can be as traded as the next player, for the right return, which is a deal you’ll always lose. However, you had me at Perron being Hall’s replacement.

    Almost had me biting…..

  106. oliveoilers says:

    I sense the presence of an ancient force……One I thought long departed.

    DSF, are you there?

    Knock once for yes…..

  107. Lowetide says:

    PhrankLee: True but having to get a #1G and2 or 3 of your top 4 D in one offseason is a mighty, mighty tall order.

    That’s why trading Perron was such a bad idea. Now you’ve got one more thing to do next summer. Plus Petry. Number one reason I’m pretty certain they have no plans to contend for the playoffs in 2015-16. They keep moving back the damn chains!

  108. Bruce McCurdy says:

    G Money: The Oilers have now given away 20 points to two wretched teams: ARI and CGY. Think about that for a second. 20 points. From a team that only has 35 right now.

    Glass half full: It’s only 18 points, 5 losses to ARI and 4 to CGY. Oilers managed 1 Bettman point against each, so they have only pissed away 16 points in those games, not 20.

    Glass half empty: Add Vancouver to that mix, another team as “wretched” as Calgary (both tied with 57 points at the moment) and that’s 4 more losses with 1 more Bettman point. So, against the 3 non-California teams in the Pacific against whom Oilers were reasonably expected to be at least competitive, they have played 13 games and lost every single one of them.

    Glass fallen on the floor, broken into smithereens, slipped in the water & cut our feet on the shards: Oilers have been reduced to playing spoiler yet again this season, & in 8 (eight) opportunities to put the hurt on their two most hated rivals — both struggling near the playoff cut line & desperately needing every point — have utterly failed to take a single point away from either team. (Take those Bettman points and fire them into the sun, when the other guys get 2 points there has been no spoiling accomplished.)

    It is this last that utterly enrages me about this bunch, to see Calgary visibly “want it more” & wipe the floor with them (glass & all) in the third period of consecutive losses is hard to accept. For all the progress in January, they ended the month 0-1-0 against those hated rivals. That was the biggest game of the month to this long-suffering Oilers fan, & that 3rd period had me wanting to pitch my 47-inch screen through my picture window.

  109. verdad2.0 says:

    Bruce McCurdy,

    He flushed Dubnyk and Gagner at low value compared to that summer.

    As for Horcoff and Hemsky not retained, are you going to make a case for NIkitin and Ference being examples of that cap space well spent?

    You call it a filter, but it actually a real time record of blunders.

    But it particularly informs the current need to rid the team of him now. Those summer of 2013 blunders were real opporunities not taken that would have lead to real progress. Ever since that summer the Oilers have been dealing from weakness. Lessons cost extra, as they say.
    When so many key decisions need to be made within a few weeks and months who wants MacTavish making them?

    Just savor last night’s game with the likes of Aulie, Scrivens , Ference leading us down. All part of MacTavish initiatives and failed work-arounds.

  110. Tire Fire says:

    oliveoilers:
    I sense the presence of an ancient force……One I thought long departed.

    DSF, are you there?

    Knock once for yes…..

    Doesn’t match the writing style, so I don’t think so. I do see the similar post-fixed narration though. My best guess would be: Son of DSF- the Unshakeable Pessimist, Part II. Bum bum bum!

  111. Bruce McCurdy says:

    8 years out from having picks #6, 15, 30, & 36 in the 2007 draft, all the Oilers have to show for it is a veteran winger on a salary dump (Purcell) and an AHL defenceman (Marincin). That’s … not good.

    Fire Prendergast!

  112. Bruce McCurdy says:

    verdad2.0:
    Bruce McCurdy,

    He flushed Dubnyk and Gagner at low value compared to that summer.

    Please show me the post from that summer where you (or Verdad 1.0) said they should flush Dubnyk and Gagner.

  113. Lowetide says:

    speeds:
    Lowetide,

    Well, thanks, but I also had Voracek ahead of Kane.Regardless, my point isn’t about my list, or my thoughts, but instead that it’s not merely hindsight to say Voracek is a better player now, he was thought of as the better prospect at the time as well, based on memory even beyond Bob Mac’s list.

    How close is enough that players are in the same tier, well, good question, and you’re right that it often varies from one person to another.

    I don’t think that you can blame this season on the 2007 draft though, I think that is way too simplistic.Would it have helped to draft better, sure, it always would, but there have been any number of things along the way that have contributed as much.

    Absolutely. One major item is Gagner came right to the NHL and Voracek went back to junior. Gagner’s age (I think they were close together) and superior point total convinced me he was going to be an outstanding player.

    And, as stated above, the thing that made me most upset that day was passing on the Russian.

    http://lowetide.blogspot.ca/2007/06/saw-him-good.html?m=1

  114. spud says:

    Lowetide: Really? Man I do not get the Hall hate onliine. An absolute non-starter.

    That is what happens when a team is out of the playoffs for too long–the “star” players are sacrificed. Can you say Rick Nash? And maybe, at some point, the player wants to leave too.

  115. Gordies Elbow says:

    Objectively, the 2007 draft was really poor, but from my analysis, it was a period between 2003-2007 drafts formed the foundation of the real issues Edmonton currently faces. In those years, Edmonton had 41 picks, and the returns were:
    – Sam Gagner , 2nd line winger/centre on a poor team
    – Riley Nash, 2nd line winger/forward on a poor team
    – Jeff Petry, 2nd pairing defender on a good team, 1st pairing on a poor team
    – Andrew Cogliano, 3rd line winger on a good team
    – Devan Dubnyk, starting goalie who had been waived multiple times,
    – Kyle Brodziak, 4th line centre on a middling team
    – Troy Bodie, 4th line winger.

    Some of the names not on the list:
    Alex Plante, 15th overall, MA Pouliot, 22nd overall, Rob Schremp 25th overall, and a variety of other players like Linus Omark, Theo Peckham, Taylor Chorney, Jean-Francois Jacques, Zack Stortini , and my personal favorite, Dragan “The Burninator” Umicevic.

    How many of those picks were damaged by not having an AHL team in place?

    Compare this to today. The Oklahoma Barons have 64 points, and are the top team in the AHL, winning by committee. Rookie Laurent Brossoit with 24 games played, and a respectable .916 save percentage. Offense is currently lead by NCAA pickup Andrew Miller, with 15g-20a-35pts and +10, 17th in the league. Brad Hunt leads the defense with 29 points in 31 games, and trending upwards. If Edmonton didn’t have OKC, would Miller, Hunt, and Brossoit be developing and playing?

  116. Auston Matthews '16 says:

    Lowetide: And, as stated above, the thing that made me most upset that day was passing on the Russian.
    http://lowetide.blogspot.ca/2007/06/saw-him-good.html?m=1

    LT in the wayback machine – very cool.

  117. oliveoilers says:

    Tire Fire: Doesn’t match the writing style, so I don’t think so.I do see the similar post-fixed narration though.My best guess would be: Son of DSF- the Unshakeable Pessimist, Part II.Bum bum bum!

    A test would seem to be in order…..

    Dallas Eakins was:

    a) A terrible coach, not ready for the AHL, let alone the NHL.

    b) Unlucky, should have been given a decent roster. Sunk by D and G.

    c) Not bad. Had us trending in right direction. Maybe should have done his time as an assistant.

    d) All hat and no cattle.

    That should tell us if he who must not be named is back.

  118. Gordies Elbow says:

    Organizational review, part 2:

    On March 19, 2007, Edmonton affiliated with the Springfield Falcons, giving Edmonton a development pipeline. The Falcons had a number of poor years, due to the poor development and acquisition of players. In 2009-2010, Springfield had 66 points, easily the worst in the AHL. How can a program go from the worst in the AHL to the best in 5 seasons?

    From 2008-2012, the drafting and development looks better. Over 39 picks, they gathered:
    – Nail Yakupov, 3rd line winger on a poor team
    – Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, 1st line centre on a poor team, NHL all star
    – Taylor Hall, 1st line winger, arguably one of the best in the NHL at his position
    – Oscar Klefbom, 2nd pairing defender on a poor team
    – Tobias Rieder, 2nd line winger on a poor team
    – Tyler Pitlick, 4th line winger on a poor team
    – Martin Marincin, bottom pairing defender on a poor team
    – Anton Lander , 4th line centre/winger on a poor team
    – Jordan Eberle, 1st line winger on a poor team

    The average draft position was better, but they have players that look to be better than their overall draft position. Pitlick, Klefbom, Marincin, Lander all benefitted from (or are benefitting from) time in the AHL.

    Also, they still have a number of picks in the development path, including: Mitchell Moroz, Jujhar Khaira, Joey Laleggia, John McCarron, David Musil, Travis Ewanyk, Dillon Simpson, Martin Gernat, Frans Tuohimaa, Curtis Hamilton, and Brandon Davidson.

    We’re 2 years into the next 5 year draft cycle. Not a single player from 2013 or 2014 is on the Oilers roster. With 16 picks, Edmonton has Leon Draisaitl (WHL), William Lagesson (USHL), Zachary Nagelvoort (NCAA), Liam Coughlin (BCHL), Tyler Vesel (NCHC), Keven Bouchard (QMJHL), Darnell Nurse (OHL),Marco Roy (QMJHL), Bogdan Yakimov (AHL), Anton Slepyshev (KHL), Jackson Houck (WHL), Kyle Platzer (OHL), Aidan Muir (NCHC), Evan Campbell (NCAA), Ben Betker (WHL), and Greg Chase (WHL)

    Is the outcome of the organizational review as simple as having a proper development system, and using it?

  119. Tire Fire says:

    oliveoilers: A test would seem to be in order…..

    Dallas Eakins was:

    a)A terrible coach, not ready for the AHL, let alone the NHL.

    b)Unlucky, should have been given a decent roster.Sunk by D and G.

    c)Not bad.Had us trending in right direction.Maybe should have done his time as an assistant.

    d)All hat and no cattle.

    That should tell us if he who must not be named is back.

    Oooohhhh, clever test, that should do it for sure.

    And I thought we were going to have to use this thing:
    http://tinyurl.com/dj99kf

  120. leadfarmer says:

    oliveoilers,

    I think he was saying that Perron and Pouliot are good enough for to cover the top 6 for left wingers that you could survive in that area if you could get a stud defenseman for Hall. Neither one is anywhere near as good as him but you would get a lot more for Hall than the late 1st round pick and a bottom 6 forward.

    Anyway Perron didn’t want to be here some its a mute point.

  121. leadfarmer says:

    The speed issue is part of the reason they should make players at the Combine run the 200 meter dash. If you are rated as a mediocre skater but you can run really fast then you probably have enough fast twitch muscles that a skating coach could work with you and you would have a decent chance at improvement. If you are slow compared to your peers and you run slow then you are pretty screwed. But until then anyone with skating issues should have a warning sign and be passed on unless they started in hockey late. No more Plante’s or Musils, Take players that can skate. If you can’t skate you can’t keep up with the play and it doesn’t matter how great of a shot or other skill that player may have.

  122. Auston Matthews '16 says:

    oliveoilers: That should tell us if he who must not be named is back.

    No questions about Dale Tallon?

  123. Woodguy says:

    godot10: Chicago and LA have won 2 Cups each with good but not great goaltenders.Detroit won a Cup with Chris Osgood.

    There pretty much is only one or two elite goaltenders.If you are waiting for Carey Price, you are waiting for a miracle.

    With the Eakins mistake, Schneider would have just been another David Perron.Schneider, like Perron, had two years to UFA status.He would have never re-signed with the dytfunctional incompetent behind the bench.

    I too blame Eakins for MacT not hiring the right goalies.

  124. Woodguy says:

    leadfarmer: Anyway Perron didn’t want to be here some its a mute point.

    Its not mute point.

    Its moo point.

    Like’s a cow’s opinion.

    It doesn’t matter.

    Its moo.

  125. Woodguy says:

    verdad2.0,

    I don’t see the hyperbole.

    Its not Hyper Bole

    Its Super Bowl.

  126. Mr DeBakey says:

    Auston Matthews ’16: LT in the wayback machine – very cool.

    Ahh
    the good ol days when I was only frustrated with the Oilers,
    not whatever I am now – angry, disdainful, contemptuous?

    Riley Nash was taken in that 2007 draft, and I asked what’s the big deal about drafting a depth C in the 1st.
    The other day, someone mentioned a rumour that the OIlers might be going after Tikhonov.
    2 UFA depth-type Centers whose numbers are much better than Tikhonovs:

    JARNO KOSKIRANTA – Finland 
    AGE 28
    SHOOTS L
    HEIGHT 192 cm / 6’3″
    WEIGHT 86 kg / 190 lbs
    KHL 49 – 12 – 25 – 37
    FO 1094
    FOW 634
    %FO 58
    TOI/G 18:43
    Koskiranta is a big center with good hands and offensive ability. Always works hard. Could add some bulk and play with more physicality.

    Andreas Engqvist – Sweden
    AGE 27
    SHOOTS R
    HEIGHT 192 cm / 6’3″
    WEIGHT 89 kg / 196 lbs
    KHL 46 – 17 – 15 – 32
    FO 809
    FOW 484
    %FO 59.8
    TOI/G 18:10
    A big and strong two-way center. Engqvist has good hockey sense and a fine passing game. Reads the game very well and his defensive game is quite good. His skating is fairly good, although he could improve both his acceleration and top speed. Considering Engqvist has such a large frame, he does not really play physical and should improve that aspect of his game.

    Both good size
    Excellent in the circle
    Minute munchers
    Light on scoring

  127. Auston Matthews '16 says:

    Woodguy: Its not mute point.

    Its moo point.

    Like’s a cow’s opinion.

    It doesn’t matter.

    Its moo.

    Udderly ridiculous!

  128. leadfarmer says:

    Woodguy,

    I blame Eakins for the 2007 draft. Eakins build the Berlin wall. Eakins blew up the space shuttle Challenger caused it looked at him funny. Eakins deflated Tom Brady’s footballs. Eakins caused the BP Oil Spill. Eakins can’t be stopped.

    I also blame Eakins for turning Pitlick into the sequel of the Oregon Trail game. What’s he going to come down with next? I have my money down for malaria.

  129. Mr DeBakey says:

    Woodguy: leadfarmer: Anyway Perron didn’t want to be here some its a mute point.
    Its not mute point.

    We could use a few more guys around here making mute points.
    If you follow my drift.

  130. leadfarmer says:

    Woodguy,

    It takes Woodguy 7 minutes to correct someone on the interwebs. Now we can put that in the books.

  131. leadfarmer says:

    Auston Matthews ’16,

    Its actually moot point but who cares.

  132. Woodguy says:

    Lowetide: That’s why trading Perron was such a bad idea. Now you’ve got one more thing to do next summer. Plus Petry. Number one reason I’m pretty certain they have no plans to contend for the playoffs in 2015-16. They keep moving back the damn chains!

    Except MacT doesn’t see Perron or roster construction that way.

    MacT is building 2 scoring lines, 1 checking line, and an “energy/young player” line.

    Hall and Pouliot are his 1/2 LW and there was no room at the Inn for Perron.

    He was supposed to turn into a C, but a funny thing happened on the way to the forum….

  133. Woodguy says:

    leadfarmer:
    Woodguy,

    It takes Woodguy 7 minutes to correct someone on the interwebs.Now we can put that in the books.

    No, its takes me 7 minutes to create comedy from mistakes.

    Actually correcting someone is usually quicker.

  134. Woodguy says:

    Mr DeBakey: We could use a few more guys around here making mute points.
    If you follow my drift.

    ZING!

  135. oliveoilers says:

    Auston Matthews ’16: No questions about Dale Tallon?

    Dale Tallon is:

    a) Not his real name.

    b) A cut and thrust hockey executive not afraid to bend or break the rules in pursuit of excellence.

    c) A borderline crook who tried not to qualify his players so he could spend over the cap limit in order to win a cup.

    d) The greatest ever human being, living or dead. Kind to small animals and children, scratch golfer and all round nice guy.

  136. Tire Fire says:

    leadfarmer:
    Woodguy,

    I also blame Eakins for turning Pitlick into the sequel of the Oregon Trail game.What’s he going to come down with next?I have my money down for malaria.

    Hahahaha. Beautiful.

  137. Woodguy says:

    ARI wins this afternoon.

    St-Hyacinthe, QC native Louis Domingue got his first NHL start in Montreal (nice touch by ARI to do that for the young man), put up .900 and was good enough for the win.

    ARI – 50gp 42pts
    EDM – 50gp 35pts

    Go Domingue go!!

  138. jake70 says:

    Bruce on fire today….fantastic. (let me know if you chuck that TV, will be there to catch it, need one for the basement 🙂 .

  139. Auston Matthews '16 says:

    leadfarmer:
    Auston Matthews ’16,

    Its actually moot point but who cares.

    I didn’t say it was or wasn’t.

  140. Auston Matthews '16 says:

    Well here’s our aging Russian goalie, to put this tank into a higher gear… or would that be a lower gear?

    Follow

    Elliotte FriedmanVerified account
    ‏@FriedgeHNIC
    Nabokov (TB) on waivers. We’ll see what this means for him; terrific career so far.

  141. Bruce McCurdy says:

    jake70:
    Bruce on fire today….fantastic.(let me know if you chuck that TV, will be there to catch it, need one for the basement .

    Not a happy camper today. But I won’t claim to be unhappy that my team didn’t flush its 27-year-old goaltender two years ago coming off .916, .914 and .921 seasons.

  142. Bruce McCurdy says:

    Woodguy:
    ARI wins this afternoon.

    St-Hyacinthe, QC native Louis Domingue got his first NHL start in Montreal (nice touch by ARI to do that for the young man), put up .900 and was good enough for the win.

    ARI – 50gp 42pts
    EDM – 50gp 35pts

    Go Domingue go!!

    Arizona walks in to Toronto & Montreal & walks out with 2 regulation wins. What do you figure are the odds Oilers can do that on their next road trip?

  143. Woodguy says:

    Bruce McCurdy: Not a happy camper today. But I won’t claim to be unhappy that my team didn’t flush its 27-year-old goaltender two years ago coming off .916, .914 and .921 seasons.

    MacT and his public musings about players that were on the roster were just awful.

    Dumb mistakes.

    Rookie mistakes.

    Dumb rookie mistakes.

    My goddam kingdom for a hockey team that no longer makes dumb rookie mistakes at any position in the org.

  144. Bruce McCurdy says:

    Did anybody catch the end of the Barons’ game last night? I’m interested to know how they managed to allow the winning goal at the 7:00 mark of a 7-minute OT. I see penalty shot, but what happened?

  145. book¡je says:

    Woodguy: MacT and his public musings about players that were on the roster were just awful.

    Dumb mistakes.

    Rookie mistakes.

    Dumb rookie mistakes.

    My goddam kingdom for a hockey team that no longer makes dumb rookie mistakes at any position in the org.

    http://redwings.nhl.com/

  146. PunjabiOil says:

    I don’t think the Oilers catch anyone. They’ll likely clear well ahead of Buffalo, and have a 33 percent chance at Eichel. Doesn’t seem fair to lose out on a generational player given how far behind they are without progress. I think you then have to go with Hanifin.

    1. The Oilers schedule from mid December to the end of January was relatively soft. Have a look at now until mid March. It’s not pretty.

    2. Home road split.

    3. Arizona won today (7 up now) and play buffalo twice. Carolina plays them several times as well.

    ___________

    Voracek was the consensus pick – and I believe the Oilers got caught up with Gagner’s bloodlines, Canadian boy, etc. that swayed them to pick him over Voracek. Having that said, it took a while for Voracek to get going too – he did get traded after all from Columbus.

    In Gagner’s case, there were opportunities to trade the player earlier in his career for more value. Sometimes, you have to cut your losses earlier, and the Oilers did not do that.

    Having that said, agree with Speeds – 2007 draft is only part of the equation. Penner offersheet, inability to exploit market inefficiencies in the UFA market, getting zero contributing assets from Pitkanen, Souray, Gilbert, Roloson, Dubnyk, Gagner, Broadziak, Glencross, Visnovsky, Cogliano is probably considerably more important than the 2007 draft.

    And have they learned?

    The consensus was Bennett over Draisaitl (and if you believe Stauffer, Oilerss had him over Ekblad) and the smartest men in the room thought otherwise. Eakins hire, refusing to negotiate an extension to Petry, refusing to send down Draisaitl after 9 gammes, complete mis-valuation of the market in Nikitin, the overconfidence in two backup goalie, amongst other blunders does not inspire confidence that anything has changed.

  147. verdad2.0 says:

    Tire Fire,

    The “troll” accusation is always the last resort of those who don’t want to simply dialogue and confront the stark realities of ineptitude of the Edmonton Oilers.

    Ask any other hockey site outside of Edmonton what they think of Oiler management and culture.

    Then tell me that MacTavish shouldn’t be fired tomorrow?

  148. verdad2.0 says:

    Bruce McCurdy,

    Those that know me will attest that I was record for flushing Gagner after the 2011 season, let alone 2013.
    The man never won a puck battle or any grit in entire time in Edmonton, one occasional fight notwithstanding.

    But that is irrelevant to the larger point, MacTavish has made the situation manifestly worse since his arrival. A big part of that was not flushing Gagner sooner than he did.

    Surely, this shouldn’t be a contentious admission.

  149. prairieschooner says:

    Oilers management are playing a never ending game of Jenga

  150. oliveoilers says:

    verdad2.0:
    Tire Fire,

    The “troll” accusation is always the last resort of those who don’t want to simply dialogue and confront the stark realities of ineptitude of the Edmonton Oilers.

    Ask any other hockey site outside of Edmonton what they think of Oiler management and culture.

    Then tell me that MacTavish shouldn’t be fired tomorrow?

    No, the troll accusation is rolled out when a certain someone says :

    verdad2.0:
    Bruce McCurdy,

    Time will tell if that belief in Hall was justified.

    And everyone else says “huh?”

    So you would have seriously traded Nurse, ’15 2nd, probably Marincin and in the alleged words of Gillis “oh, and Hall.”

    And no cop out answers like “well, I would have considered it.” Straight up yes or no. And why you think Hall is a bum.

  151. Bruce McCurdy says:

    verdad2.0:
    Bruce McCurdy,

    Those that know me will attest that I was record for flushing Gagner after the 2011 season, let alone 2013.
    The man never wona puck battle or any grit in entire time in Edmonton, one occasional fight notwithstanding.

    But that is irrelevant to the larger point, MacTavish has made the situation manifestly worse since his arrival. A big part of that was not flushing Gagner sooner than he did.

    Surely, this shouldn’t be a contentious admission.

    & Dubnyk? You also called flushing him after a .921 season?

    Sorry, you talk about “dialogue” yet you come on with an argument that “every single thing MacTavish ever did was horrible”. There’s no middle ground to be found in such a discussion.

  152. PhrankLee says:

    Woodguy: I too blame Eakins for MacT not hiring the right goalies.

    The more I think about it the more I blame whomever made sure Renney lost his job.

    He’s maybe the one that got away?

  153. Woodguy says:

    PhrankLee: The more I think about it the more I blame whomever made sure Renney lost his job.

    He’s maybe the one that got away?

    For sure he was.

    They made nice progression year over year in possession stats with mostly rookies and awful players.

    That’s on Lowe and Tambo.

    Fire them both!

  154. Lois Lowe says:

    leadfarmer:
    Woodguy,

    I also blame Eakins for turning Pitlick into the sequel of the Oregon Trail game.What’s he going to come down with next?I have my money down for malaria.

    Tyler Pitlick has died of dysentery.

  155. Tire Fire says:

    verdad2.0:

    The “troll” accusation is always the last resort of those who don’t want to simply dialogue and confront the stark realities of ineptitude of the Edmonton Oilers.

    Whoa, whoa whoa. I never accused you of being a “troll.” I agreed you were DSF-y. If you’re taking him as synonymous with a troll, then my good sir, I leave you with these words:

    verdad2.0:

    The “troll” accusation is always the last resort of those who don’t want to simply dialogue and confront the stark realities of ineptitude of the Edmonton Oilers.

  156. PhrankLee says:

    Lois Lowe: Tyler Pitlick has died of dysentery.

    That was funny.

  157. skidplate says:

    Was working night shift at a chemical plant turnaround that fateful night in 2007. Was screaming at the radio both before ands after the Plante oick. First Cherepanov, then WTF!!! Man did they blow it . No excuse.

    That summer, we were looking to move to Ontario to take advantage of the escalated house prices hereand deflated house prices there. Met Samwise’s uncle , very nice man, who was excited for his nephew, but was 100% sure, as was Sam’s father that Sam was not ready for the NHL. Sure wish the paid professionals that ran the team could see it.

    Hi, my name is Bob and I have a problem. I cannot shake my dependence on one of (???) The worst teams in the NHL. Please help me……..

  158. flyfish1168 says:

    Lois Lowe: Tyler Pitlick has died of dysentery.

    He also had Pubitis along with his dysentery

  159. verdad2.0 says:

    Bruce McCurdy,

    Many wars have been lost due to “middle ground”.
    The most strategically important step fo rthe Oilers is to fire MacTaviah.

    As for Dubnyk, any one who actually watched him play knew he was fundamentally flawed.
    I remember vividly in the spring of 2013 at home to Phoenix when the Oilers absolututely need to win to stay in the playoff hunt Dubnyk let two of the lamest goals of Oiler history to wreck what was leff of their playoff hopers.

    Just saying, any one who watched him play knew he was ffunmentally flawed. Even MacTavish was seemingly on to that.

    So yes absolutely trade him at 0.92. How do ever get net value unless you trade the over-rated?

  160. Bruce McCurdy says:

    verdad2.0:
    Bruce McCurdy,

    Many wars have been lost due to “middle ground”.
    The most strategically important step fo rthe Oilers is to fire MacTaviah.

    As for Dubnyk, any one who actually watched him play knew he was fundamentally flawed.
    I remember vividly in thespring of 2013 at home to Phoenix when the Oilers absolututely need to win to stay in the playoff hunt Dubnyk let two of the lamest goals of Oiler history to wreck what was leff of their playoff hopers.

    Just saying, any one whowatched him play knew he was ffunmentally flawed.Even MacTavish was seemingly on to that.

    So yes absolutely trade him at 0.92. How do ever get net value unless you trade the over-rated?

    & Corey Crawford is fatally flawed by his weak glove hand. Trade him!

  161. Lowetide says:

    verdad2.0:
    Bruce McCurdy,

    Many wars have been lost due to “middle ground”.
    The most strategically important step fo rthe Oilers is to fire MacTaviah.

    As for Dubnyk, any one who actually watched him play knew he was fundamentally flawed.
    I remember vividly in thespring of 2013 at home to Phoenix when the Oilers absolututely need to win to stay in the playoff hunt Dubnyk let two of the lamest goals of Oiler history to wreck what was leff of their playoff hopers.

    Just saying, any one whowatched him play knew he was ffunmentally flawed.Even MacTavish was seemingly on to that.

    So yes absolutely trade him at 0.92. How do ever get net value unless you trade the over-rated?

    Your tone is a little off, may want to check it.

  162. G Money says:

    zatch: Ok, a clearly below average one then.
    He has basically had two alright seasons beyond his outlier season. I honestly think that .910 may still be a slight overestimation of his true talent level at this point.

    Mike Smith’s career .911 sv% makes him pretty much dead on average for an NHL goalie.

    Please do tell what goalie ‘true talent evaluation system’ you have available that is so incredible that it provides superior insight over 359 NHL games, and so gives you comfort in “honestly” saying that .911 is an overestimation of his true talent level?

    Or are you just noticing a goalie having a bad season and deciding that his 34 games at .888 are more meaningful than his 325 games at .912?

    If so, I should “honestly” point something out to you: this doesn’t make you insightful, it simply exposes that you are statistically inept.

    Bruce McCurdy: Glass half full: It’s only 18 points, 5 losses to ARI and 4 to CGY. Oilers managed 1 Bettman point against each, so they have only pissed away 16 points in those games, not 20.
    Glass half empty: Add Vancouver to that mix, another team as “wretched” as Calgary (both tied with 57 points at the moment) and that’s 4 more losses with 1 more Bettman point. So, against the 3 non-California teams in the Pacific against whom Oilers were reasonably expected to be at least competitive, they have played 13 games and lost every single one of them.

    Dang, speaking of inept – for some reason I thought the last game was the fifth, not the fourth. Guess it harboured within a single game the pain and ineptness of two games.

    I’m more OK with the losses to Van than to Cgy (though I hate them both). Van’s poor season last year can be argued to be the outlier in many seasons of being competitive, while Cgy’s season this year will be their outlier among many seasons of incompetence.

    So while they may be tied right now, in the big picture,Cgy is truly a wretched team, while Van sucks ballsack hair but is competent.

    I suppose those other 13 teams are representative of this lost season – no wins against mid to bottom dwellers, wow – but none of them hurt like a loss to the Flames.

    Bruce McCurdy: It is this last that utterly enrages me about this bunch, to see Calgary visibly “want it more” & wipe the floor with them (glass & all) in the third period of consecutive losses is hard to accept. For all the progress in January, they ended the month 0-1-0 against those hated rivals. That was the biggest game of the month to this long-suffering Oilers fan, & that 3rd period had me wanting to pitch my 47-inch screen through my picture window.

    And here you have perfectly captured the reason why. Yeah, it doesn’t ‘hurt’, it enrages.

    After the first two or three consecutive losses against a team you should be able to meet or beat, you would think a group of NHL players, paid huge bucks to compete and whose singular goal each season is to win hockey games – would have the pride to say “ENOUGH!” and go out there, every single one of them, and play their asses off from start to finish.

    Not just to win, but with the intent to outright humiliate the other team, to beat them up from start to finish – to make up for the consecutive losses, to prove to themselves and their fans that they are not losers.

    But they didn’t. After a decent first period, they dropped their panties, bent over, and said ‘go ahead, it doesn’t hurt as much the fourth time’. Just like with Phoenix. Five times. I guess that’s why it doesn’t hurt so much?

    Losers.

    Being at the game, I have no idea what I could have hurled (other than dinner) … but I paid $460 for those tickets (Row 21 lower bowl), and if there was some way to do it, I would have loved to take those tickets, throw them in the aisle at the ‘dome, set them on fire, and then piss on them.

    After the gazillion losses in a row, I turned apathetic as a fan. The losses didn’t hurt so much. I skipped watching a few games. I was going to sell the tickets. Then the team started getting better, and I changed my mind and decided to go to this game after all, hoping to see some decent hockey.

    Now not only am I back to being enraged, but I’m even more enraged because the team shook me out of my apathy to enrage me. Does that make sense? Is that not life as an Oiler fan?

  163. godot10 says:

    MacT and Lowe didn’t call up Marincin to replace Nikitin, and Pakarenin to replace Hall.

    MacT and Lowe were the ones who bent over for Calgary. They have all their cronies in the front office to pay with the collapsing loonie, so they don’t call up reinforcements for injuries.

    So much for the Calgary and Edmonton rivalry.

    MacT and Lowe have declared “no mas”

  164. oliveoilers says:

    Lois Lowe: Tyler Pitlick has died of dysentery.

    After that bout of consumption? And the vapours?

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