OILERS TRADE NO. 16 AND NO. 33 FOR GRIFFIN REINHART

Here’s what we talked about on his draft day:

  • Corey Pronman, Hockey Prospectus: What separates him from other big defensemen is that he has the puck skills to make people miss, execute all the little plays in tight quarters, and to deliver crisp, accurate passes consistently. Reinhart also has a more aggressive offensive element to his game as he will join the rush and doesn’t shy from being creative in the offensive end of the rink. He also has a pretty big shot from the point that he can put a lot of his big frame into. The thing that has seen Reinhart establish himself so well in the industry has been his improvements.
  • Grant McCagg, tsn: Strengths: Very few 6-4 blueliners can skate and handle the puck like Reinhart, and those attributes alone will intrigue lots of scouts. Has a hard point shot that often finds its mark, good passing skills. Weaknesses: Does not always play with an abundance of passion and drive. Could be more assertive physically, and more consistent in his effort.
  • BJ MacDonald, central scouting: “He’s got nice, soft hands for a big defenseman, can run the power play and has a big shot — both the wrist shot and slapper. He moves the puck as well as anyone in this year’s draft and I like the way he thinks the game. He’s got a nice pro style that will make for an easier transition to the (NHL).”
  • Craig Button: Griffin may be a diamond in the rough but he possesses the carats of a unique player. He has a an excellent understanding of the game with a composure and patience that may suggest a lack of urgency but don’t be confused, his competitive waters run deep and he’s capable of being aggressive and assertive when necessary. He is a very good skater with strong balance and agility and along with his size, he is extremely difficult to break down 1-1 and gain an advantage on. He uses his body effectively and doesn’t lose position and is capable of punishing opponents. His vision is very good, he sees the play unfolding, knows what his options are and is capable of doing this very quickly. He makes very good plays in all areas of the game and ones that gain advantages for his team. His offensive skills continue to evolve and he is increasingly confident creating offense. Griffin has an assuredness in his play and along with his skill and physical attributes, makes him a player who has a chance to be an impact player in the NHL.

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535 Responses to "OILERS TRADE NO. 16 AND NO. 33 FOR GRIFFIN REINHART"

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  1. G Money says:

    flyfish1168,

    elphy101,

    A while back I looked at the top 10 D by ice time in the NHL. It was testing whether the assertion that teams today are more urgently moving their D draft picks into the NHL, and therefore a delay in doing that (a la Nurse or Reinhart) is therefore indicative of failure.

    Of those 9, only one (Doughty) did not spend time in a development league after being drafted. Every player spent at least part, usually all, of one, and in some cases two or three years in a lower league before making the NHL.

    I then looked at the D drafted in the last three years in the first two rounds. Of all those D, only three played more than the ELC-limit of 9 games in the NHL in their first year. All the rest spent at least one additional year in either Jr or the AHL or both.

    The idea that Reinhart cannot be a top pairing D because he spent a year in the WHL and another in the AHL is patently false.

    This is the normal course, not the exception, for D in the NHL.

  2. stephen sheps says:

    frjohnk,

    elphy101,

    G Money,

    thanks lads for your measured approach to the somewhat surprising (over)reaction.

    I don’t have a clue how I feel about the trade, both in terms of what could have been (Svechnikov, Kylington), what became (Barzal and another pick flipping) and what the Oilers now have. But like some of you have stated, maybe it’s time to back off the ledge, not compare Griff to Dougie, not grumble about prospects that could be and look at the potential positive outcomes here:

    1) Griff is projected to be a 2-3 defenceman who has a reputation of playing tough competition and making a difference (see Bruce’s article for details, particularly the Oil Kings team WOWY stats with and without him in the lineup)
    2) He is the right age for the cluster and along with Nurse and the Swedish Dreamboat could grow with the team and start to peak at just the right time.
    3) 863k cap hit for 2 more years, and several more RFA years after that.
    4) While he only played 8 games in the NHL this season, he had a solid showing in the AHL, getting significantly better as the season progressed and his call up was late in the year, even getting a start in the playoffs – which is 100% more playoff games than any other Oiler in the Hall cluster has played. Battle tested? No, of course not. But, at least he’s had a taste and that does matter.
    5) The critique that someone drafted 4ov should be in the show already is crap. See the 5 year rule – he’s only 21. Plus, had Snow not turned into a suddenly exceptional G.M., Griff likely would have made the team out of camp. Remember that Boychuk and Leddy were late additions to the team.

    The biggest point in his favour is that he’s had a bit of time to develop his game at the pro level and might be ready out of camp. However his cap hit and contract status means the Chia can add more pieces, Sekera or Spurgeon seem like the right types, and not hamstring the team. It also takes the pressure off of Nurse to make the team right out of camp and puts more pressure on the other D-Men in the system (Musil, Simpson, Marincin to an extent – though I think if he’s not traded McLellan will recognize just how good he is – ) to really elevate their games.

    Potential Pairings? (which I never do, but screw it… I had some bourbon so please bear with me)
    Klefbom-Fayne
    Marincin-Sekera (or Spurgeon)
    Griff-Jultz
    Ference

    Nurse first call up (likely in 20 games)
    86 86

    I still don’t know if it was a great trade (leaning towards a slight overpay), but I don’t think I hate it, either.

  3. Klima's_Bucket says:

    Maybe Reinhart can become the next Hjalmarsson…

  4. Rational Zealot says:

    elphy101: Yep, which current OIlers NHL defensemen is better than him? I consider Klefbom to be the only real NHL defensemen on the roster right now.

    I guess I would put Fayne currently ahead of him but I’ll be interested to see what the judgement is at the end of the season.

    Are you drunk? If the team is picked on merit Reinhart might not make the team at all.

    Klefbom
    Fayne
    Marincin
    Nurse
    Schultz (and I hate Schultz)

    are all miles better than Reinhart. Miles. The Islanders played two guys none of us have ever heard of this year in the playoffs, who then proceeded to play exactly as you would expect, instead of Reinhart. Because they thought Reinhart is nowhere near NHL ready. Ference and Nikitin are better than him right now. I see no way around that fact.

    You guys are talking as if we just traded for the equivalent of Nurse. Nurse was a top ten pick who then exploded. Reinhart was a top ten pick who has done nothing. He isn’t magic beans. His beans have expired.

  5. Ryan says:

    G Money: You don’t find this to be a ludicrous topic of speculation?

    I agree with you that this is absolutely ludicrous speculation.

    Prior to last year’s draft, there were rumors surfacing (reported by Jonathan Willis) that the Oilers were strongly considering trading their pick for Reinhart.

    At the time, Chia Pete was the GM of the Boston Bruins…

    One year later, the Oilers with Chia Pete as their GM trade two picks for Reinhart…

    Clearly, my speculation is ludicrous…

  6. admiralmark says:

    Ryan: I agree with you that this is absolutely ludicrous speculation.

    Prior to last year’s draft, there were rumors surfacing (reported by Jonathan Willis) that the Oilers were strongly considering trading their pick for Reinhart.

    At the time, Chia Pete was the GM of the Boston Bruins…

    One year later, the Oilers with Chia Pete as their GM trade two picks for Reinhart…

    Clearly, my speculation is ludicrous…

    Add to this….Gregor I believe asked Bob Green if he’s seen Reinhart in the last 2 years play? Bob Green- “Well I didnt see him play in the AHL, I seen him in junior and I know what he brings.

    I don’t see that is a good comment whatsoever. Do your friggin homework.

  7. John Chambers says:

    Rational Zealot,

    Being the best defence man an on a Memorial Cup winning team is nothing?

    Alright then

  8. G Money says:

    Ryan,

    So – you’re suggesting that the rest of the team wanted Reinhart, Chia Pete didn’t, but they forced him?

  9. matmik says:

    The hypocrisy of many on this blog is embarrassing. People hated trading Perron for magic beans then kill Chia for turning the magic beans into a far more likely bet. The oilers already won the lottery (no pun intended) with CMD. Now is the time to cash the chips in. It’s time to realize the gains and deleverage the portfolio.

    Evaluate this trade the way you would value an option trade in finance. We’re selling volitility at a time we have no need for it. And we’re selling it at a time when the market is craving risk (ie on draft day, pics are over valued in contrast to players)

    No one knows how this will turn out but as of right now this trade makes a lot of sense

  10. Younger Oil says:

    G Money:
    OK, you guys will get a kick out of this.

    This afternoon, I ran a survey with two questions: who will we get at #16, and who will we get for a goaler.

    In all the excitement pre-draft, I forgot to post the results.Here they are!

    On #16OV:
    http://i.imgur.com/VC6izyQ.png

    Svechnikov by a landslide.He was there, too.Ouch.There were also four write-in votes: one for Ek, one for Roy, one for trading down, and one for trading for Hamilton (double triple ouch).

    Here’s the goalie prediction:
    http://i.imgur.com/uSCXBwL.png

    Neuvirth by a hair.Of the four ‘other’ votes, two were for Ramo and two for Niemi.

    Yeah, the whole Svechnikov thing was a kick to the boys. I was on the edge of my seat praying the B’s wouldn’t choose him with any of their three picks, and when they didn’t I was elated, hearing about them interviewing him multiple times and liking what they heard made me think they were going to sprint to the podium.

    I’ll admit that likely a good amount of my anger towards the trade is due to the fact that for the first time I have really gotten into the draft, and put in hours and hours of casual research and debate into who I wanted at those two picks in particular, and going from the highest of highs to that disappointment was hard to take.

    If Roy is available at #33 tomorrow as well, I just might cry.

    The only thing that will make me feel a bit better is if they pick any of the guys I want tomorrow.

  11. blainer says:

    Who really knows how D will turn out for sure. I for one am not saying this is a bad trade yet. I am skeptical but I have decided not to listen to the naysayers until I see it with my own eyes and the math backs me up. I will say this though.

    CMD is gonna bring everybody’s game up simply by possessing the puck so much more and that includes GR. The same can be said for RNH as I am guaranteeing a Seguin type breakout year for him also. I think our entire D is gonna benefit from our Elite scoring next year.

  12. G Money says:

    admiralmark: Add to this….Gregor I believe asked Bob Green if he’s seen Reinhart in the last 2 years play? Bob Green- “Well I didnt see him play in the AHL, I seen him in junior and I know what he brings.

    I don’t see that is a good comment whatsoever. Do your friggin homework.

    If that is true, then that is a horrible failure of scouting.

  13. misfit says:

    719: Klef can play the rightside

    Can he though? We heard Stauffer say the same about Nikitin a hundred times, whether he was prompted or not, but the fact is he had never played on the right side in his entire NHL career and so far hasn’t played RD for us either.

    The same was said about Nick Schultz after we got him. The GM who traded for him made a point of saying so the same day he made the trade. Schultz never played RD with the only NHL team he’d ever played with to that point, nor did he do so in his 2 years in Edmonton. Not even when paired with another LD. It was always the other guy (Whitney) who played the right side.

    Now, I’ll admit I hadn’t watched him in the AHL last year, but I know for a fact that he stayed at LD with the Oil Kings.

    So aside from “because it would be better if he could”, do we have any evidence he can, or has ever, played RD? Any at all?

  14. Rational Zealot says:

    LMHF#1:
    Let’s say Reinhart turns out to be a decent #4 defenceman. Are people happy with that?

    A main part of my rage was that I was expecting that if you move #16 (not even thinking of #33), it would only be for an established D, #3/4 or better NOW. Maybe as part of a package, but you still need the tools.

    Maybe Chiarelli will make a few moves in the next week or two and round out the D before camp…but my cynicism built strong from the past few years says no. He’ll claim this is it, and that Ference will rebound and a bunch of other hooey, then trade Marincin for next to nothing.

    Do you understand some of the rage now?

    I want to repeat this because it makes so much sense. For those defending the indefensible, paint me a picture of the best case scenario for Reinhart.

    Is it a #4 defenseman?

    I can’t imagine any higher than that based on the scouting reports (remember the code, if someone is described as a stay at home defensemen it means they don’t do other things well. This is also why you should always devalue size as a qualifier. When someone says someone is good because they are big it is because they can’t find something they are actually good at. Ergo, buys described as stay at home defensemen are, by default, back of the roster guys.

    This is why the trade is terrible. Two high picks for a #4 defenseman is a terrible trade. And that’s the best case scenario.

    The other scenario is Colton Teubert.

    So even if you are right you are wrong.

    This guy comes in as #7 or 8 on the depth chart. Think about that for a second.

  15. Ryan says:

    G Money:
    Ryan,

    So – you’re suggesting that the rest of the team wanted Reinhart, Chia Pete didn’t, but they forced him?

    I am merely suggesting that the Oilers publicly coveted Reinhart long before Chiarelli was their GM and pulled the trigger on a deal today.

    I think it’s fair to assume he may not have been the driving force on this deal.

  16. elphy101 says:

    Interesting to watch Chiarelli’s post Day 1 draft Raw. He stated they would not have taken Barzal at 16. I’m guessing it was Jeremy Roy or Svechnikov that was the target.

    http://video.oilers.nhl.com/videocenter/

    I’m really hoping the Oilers find a way to move up and grab Roy. Red Line and Pronman’s commentary on him has him as my number one target now.

  17. Lackadaisical says:

    stephen sheps,

    Well said. Perfectly encapsulates the attitude we can hopefully adopt moving forward.

  18. G Money says:

    Rational Zealot: Ok, I haven’t read all the comments but this cannot pass. Reinhart was a terrible reach pick at the time. Nobody thought he would be Ryan Suter. Not even professional scouts whose job is to oversell their favourites. Since then he has done nothing to back up his pedigree.
    This is horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Even if he reaches his upside this is a terrible trade.

    For a guy who has the audacity to put ‘rational’ in his very name, you are not only amazingly irrational, but outright full of sh*t at times.

    “Reach pick”?

    Griffin Reinhart was #4 on Bobby Mac’s scouting list prior to the 2012 draft. This is the gold standard of scouting lists, and (probably to no-one’s surprise but yours), Reinhart went *exactly* where Bobby Mac’s list (which is built on NHL scouting averages) said he would.

    Read for yourself, and stop being such a pompous jackass. http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9831

    Or at least, if you’re going to be a pompous jackass, be right once in a while.

  19. Rational Zealot says:

    John Chambers:
    Rational Zealot,

    Being the best defence manan on a Memorial Cup winning team is nothing?

    Alright then

    Yes, nothing. What percentage of junior players do you think are meaningful NHL players? It approaches the vanishing point.

    We didn’t trade magic beans for magic beans. I’d die for magic beans.

  20. theres oil in virginia says:

    Rational Zealot: Reinhart was a terrible reach pick at the time.

    McKenzie had him at #4.

    http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9831

    Spoiler had him at #7.

    7. Griffin Reinhart: This is a physically smaller class of Dmen on the whole, but Reinhart is one prospect who already has pro size and strength. Skating has been Reinhart’s issue, but it has improved greatly throughout the season, and we now see Reinhart dangling through the neutral zone with the puck, something he would not have attempted a year ago. The improved skating has transformed this player and he took a great leap this year, so maybe has more upside than some of the D prospects around him. Would have been nice to see a little more offense but when you consider he had to share minutes with a stacked D, he posted some nice numbers, especially in the Goals category. Has a boomer of a slapshot from the point. Physical assertiveness was an issue earlier in the season, but Reinhart proved able to raise this aspect of the game in the playoffs. Has better hockey sense than he often gets credit for.

    http://lowetide.ca/2012/06/21/spoiler-alert/

    LT had him at #5.

    http://oilersnation.com/2012/6/9/lowetides-30

    That’s a reach, huh?

  21. Lackadaisical says:

    misfit: Can he though?We heard Stauffer say the same about Nikitin a hundred times, whether he was prompted or not, but the fact is he had never played on the right side in his entire NHL career and so far hasn’t played RD for us either.

    The same was said about Nick Schultz after we got him.The GM who traded for him made a point of saying so the same day he made the trade.Schultz never played RD with the only NHL team he’d ever played with to that point, nor did he do so in his 2 years in Edmonton.Not even when paired with another LD.It was always the other guy (Whitney) who played the right side.

    Now, I’ll admit I hadn’t watched him in the AHL last year, but I know for a fact that he stayed at LD with the Oil Kings.

    So aside from “because it would be better if he could”, do we have any evidence he can, or has ever, played RD?Any at all?

    Hmm wasn’t he playing right side with Sweden? Klefbom that this,

    (I’ve had a couple and my head is fuzzy from a long day of reading, I assume some of you are in this same boat.)

  22. Rational Zealot says:

    G Money: For a guy who has the audacity to put ‘rational’ in his very name, you are not only amazingly irrational, but outright full of sh*t at times.

    “Reach pick”?

    Griffin Reinhart was #4 on Bobby Mac’s scouting list prior to the 2012 draft.This is the gold standard of scouting lists, and (probably to no-one’s surprise but yours), Reinhart went *exactly* where Bobby Mac’s list (which is built on NHL scouting averages) said he would.

    Gold standard according to the opinion of scouts. Sorry, but the opinion of scouts is worth nothing. Every year at the draft we see what the opinions of scouts is worth. If there is a class of people more prone to the dangers of insularity I can’t think of it. Sportswriters, perhaps.

    Scouting consensus is not evidence. It counts for nothing.

  23. Rational Zealot says:

    G Money: For a guy who has the audacity to put ‘rational’ in his very name, you are not only amazingly irrational, but outright full of sh*t at times.

    “Reach pick”?

    Griffin Reinhart was #4 on Bobby Mac’s scouting list prior to the 2012 draft.This is the gold standard of scouting lists, and (probably to no-one’s surprise but yours), Reinhart went *exactly* where Bobby Mac’s list (which is built on NHL scouting averages) said he would.

    Read for yourself, and stop being such a pompous jackass.http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9831

    Or at least, if you’re going to be a pompous jackass, be right once in a while.

    Fuck you.

  24. Mtl-oiler says:

    stephen sheps,

    1) Griff is projected to be a 2-3 defenceman who has a reputation of playing tough competition.

    That’s the problem. As G Money said “look at the big picture above” where it says “projected: No. 1 complete D” in 2012. Now he”s a 2-3 D. What happenedÉ

    As said before there`s a reason the Islanders traded him. I definitely don`t think they would have traded him if was progressing as even a 2-3 D. They obviously thought that he wasn`t.

  25. G Money says:

    Rational Zealot,

    Again, if you’re going to be a pompous jackass, at least be right.

    Clearly you have NOT read the scouting reports you reference.

    Even the ones as recent as May of this year still say “Top 4” or “Top Pairing”.

    And while they all reference the fact that he was used as a shutdown defensemen because of his stellar positioning, all of them, every one of them, make reference to mobility, ability to pass the puck, ability to jump into the play, and ability to hit to hurt. The main reference to ‘size’ is ‘doesn’t use it enough’. This suggests he’s being marked down, old school Jeff Petry style, for not using his size rather than lauded for having it.

  26. blainer says:

    matmik:
    The hypocrisy of many on this blog is embarrassing. People hated trading Perron for magic beans then kill Chia for turning the magic beans into a far more likely bet. The oilers already won the lottery (no pun intended) with CMD. Now is the time to cash the chips in. It’s time to realize the gains and deleverage the portfolio.

    Evaluate this trade the way you would value an option trade in finance. We’re selling volitility at a time we have no need for it. And we’re selling it at a time when the market is craving risk (ie on draft day, pics are over valued in contrast to players)

    No one knows how this will turn out but as of right now this trade makes a lot of sense

    I agree it’s time to start taking risks. We need to at least try to turn north and give up on the re building .. no matter how deep the draft is.

  27. Lackadaisical says:

    G Money: For a guy who has the audacity to put ‘rational’ in his very name, you are not only amazingly irrational, but outright full of sh*t at times.

    “Reach pick”?

    Griffin Reinhart was #4 on Bobby Mac’s scouting list prior to the 2012 draft.This is the gold standard of scouting lists, and (probably to no-one’s surprise but yours), Reinhart went *exactly* where Bobby Mac’s list (which is built on NHL scouting averages) said he would.

    Read for yourself, and stop being such a pompous jackass.http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9831

    Or at least, if you’re going to be a pompous jackass, be right once in a while.

    To be fair, he also called himself a Zealot.

    Maybe just go by Misnomer guy, or Oxymoron?

  28. hags9k says:

    Fart as you mean to blow. The trade strikes me as a knee-jerk OBC move. Here’s hoping the young man reaches his full potential and covers this bet, but at first glance, the price seems steep.

    In other news, WOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!

  29. Suntory Hanzo says:

    Remember when people were WOOOOOOTTTTIIIINNNGG!!!!! for Connor McDavid earlier today?

    Can we go back and remember that for a bit? I think the trade is still up in the air – and I agree it may be an overpay – but people complain when a move is made that doesn’t involve getting more magic beans. Sure, it’s a deep draft – I’ve read it all – but who says the guys chosen at 16 and 33 don’t become MAP, Nilsson and JFJ?

    It’s all a crapshoot. Best guesses, yes…but I hate ot when people speak about the genius of the Red Wings when they grab Zetterberg with a 789th overall or whatever he is. It’s luck. If they knew he was that good, they would have drafted him in the first round. Obviously the Oilers didn’t know what Parise or Getzlaf would become. The same way that people like Neely, Iginla and Hull are traded early.

    Did Philly even really know what they had in Forsberg all those years ago?

    Straight up, who would you choose? Foppa or Lindros? I’d think I’d go Pete..

    Rant over. (but I have enjoyed the commentary from everyone…just wish I could see some of the middle comments that are inaccessible due to the site.

    I’m going back to enjoy more McDavid day.

  30. pocession charge says:

    G Money:

    Griffin Reinhart was #4 on Bobby Mac’s scouting list prior to the 2012 draft.This is the gold standard of scouting lists, and (probably to no-one’s surprise but yours), Reinhart went *exactly* where Bobby Mac’s list (which is built on NHL scouting averages) said he would.

    It was not a reach pick, it just so crazy that the scouts had him at 4OV with the boxcars he put up in his draft year.

  31. G Money says:

    Rational Zealot: Scouting consensus is not evidence. It counts for nothing.

    Rational Zealot: Fuck you.

    LOL. Yes, it’s the *scouts* that count for nothing. Guys who, for all their flaws and subjectivity, have at the very least actually seen Reinhart play.

    I’ll be sure to weigh even more heavily than I already do your well reasoned and well argued position.

  32. misfit says:

    matmik:
    The hypocrisy of many on this blog is embarrassing. People hated trading Perron for magic beans then kill Chia for turning the magic beans into a far more likely bet. The oilers already won the lottery (no pun intended) with CMD. Now is the time to cash the chips in. It’s time to realize the gains and deleverage the portfolio.

    Evaluate this trade the way you would value an option trade in finance. We’re selling volitility at a time we have no need for it. And we’re selling it at a time when the market is craving risk (ie on draft day, pics are over valued in contrast to players)

    No one knows how this will turn out but as of right now this trade makes a lot of sense

    The failure of this post is assuming Reinhart is a “far more likely bet” than a 1st and the 33 pick in this draft.

    There are drafts where it’s best to try to add picks, and there are drafts where it’s best to package the picks you have for other assets. This was a “get more picks” draft, and instead we gave up two excellent ones for a player who is not yet proven at the NHL level and has not developed year to year in the way he should to retain his blue chip status.

    Reinhart is every bit a project or question mark than a dozen or so players we could’ve taken with either the 16th or the 33rd.

    But hey, we did use one of our picks to select a player today…WHOOOOOT!!!!

  33. Ryan says:

    theres oil in virginia: McKenzie had him at #4.

    http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9831

    Spoiler had him at #7.

    http://lowetide.ca/2012/06/21/spoiler-alert/

    LT had him at #5.

    http://oilersnation.com/2012/6/9/lowetides-30

    That’s a reach, huh?

    2012 was a shitty draft year and Reinhart was high on intangibles, had pedigree, plus size, but not remarked to be particularly good at anything.

    Let’s not confuse him with a typical top five OV rated draft pick who plays defense.

    Normally, you’d expect either a complete defender or a very high end offensive dman for someone rated #4 OV.

  34. slopitch says:

    After 8 years of trading players for picks (except for a couple cases like the Penner OS), Im willing to wait to see how Griffin develops. Islanders werent trading 24 year old Hamonic who at age 21 didnt look like much. I like getting a player at Griffins age/contract. They do need his draft+4 and draft+5 to be big development years for him.

    And the price is pretty high. So be right.

  35. G Money says:

    Mtl-oiler,

    Actually, I haven’t read anything from the NYI side (so far) that says they’re worried about his development.

    In fact, two different articles distinctly quoted Snow as saying “The only way I trade him is if you give me an offer that blows me away.”

    Which presumably Chia did.

    Time will tell whether Chia & Green & co. were right.

    But the fact that NYI traded him is hardly a slight. The price was dear, was it not? Isn’t that what has everyone’s shorts in a knot?

  36. Pajamah says:

    Rational Zealot: Fuck you.

    Constructivery point, it will certainly add to the conversation, and definitely won’t be misconstrued.

    I love this thread. So divisive.

    Normally there is difference in opinion, but the “my opinion is right, and if you believe otherwise you’re a complete retard and not worth talking to” runs counter to what most of us commenters like about this blog. We all have the ability to have meaningful debate short of name calling, attacks, and outright obstinance.

    This isn’t OilersNation people. There is a better standard.

    In regards to young Griffin. Im firmly on the fence, guy looked like an absolute stud a year and a half ago, is behind a very good, improved D core. He’s developing, but on the cusp. Either team could win this trade, but the jury is out. Anyone who knows for sure should rich, as they are obviously all knowing and would be the greatest GM this game has ever seen.

  37. flyfish1168 says:

    elphy101,

    Not sure what you mean. But i was just adding on to your list of NHL top d-men that spent time down in the AHL. DFS keeps saying top d-men don’t spent any time in the AHL.

  38. blainer says:

    Mtl-oiler:
    stephen sheps,

    1) Griff is projected to be a 2-3 defenceman who has a reputation of playing tough competition.

    That’s the problem. As G Money said “look at the big picture above” where it says “projected: No. 1 complete D” in 2012. Now he”s a 2-3 D. What happenedÉ

    As said before there`s a reason the Islanders traded him. I definitely don`t think they would have traded him if was progressing as even a 2-3 D. They obviously thought that he wasn`t.

    The Isles are pretty deep at D right Now. I actually had them and Nashville as the top teams to trade the 16th with. I was hoping for hamonic as posted in my previous comments but am ok with reinhart if it works out…

  39. Rational Zealot says:

    Look at the guys in his draft. Where is his value, realistically? Rielly, Lindholm, Dumba, Trouba, and Maata have all flown past him. Those are the guys with top potential. We didn’t trade for any of them.

    He’s in the next group, behind Pouliot. The guys with a shot at an NHL career. Trading basically two first round picks for that is batshit crazy.

  40. hags9k says:

    I don’t know much, but I do know it is way too early in GR’s career to be pulling out the bust word. Depreciating asset? Maybe. Go lower in a re-draft? Sure. But let’s try and remember the 5 year rule people. He could easily become a good NHLer for us.

    I don’t like this deal today but I don’t think we can say for certain what he will be at this point.

  41. slopitch says:

    Ryan: 2012 was a shitty draft year and Reinhart was high on intangibles, had pedigree, plus size, but not remarked to be particularly good at anything.

    Let’s not confuse him with a typical top five OV rated draft pick who plays defense.

    Normally, you’d expect either a complete defender or a very high end offensive dman for someone rated #4 OV.

    Or Gudbranson. Is that Griffins worst case? The book on Griffins development isnt done yet. Only 21.

  42. theres oil in virginia says:

    Ryan: 2012 was a shitty draft year and Reinhart was high on intangibles, had pedigree, plus size, but not remarked to be particularly good at anything.

    Let’s not confuse him with a typical top five OV rated draft pick who plays defense.

    Normally, you’d expect either a complete defender or a very high end offensive dman for someone rated #4 OV.

    Those things may or may not be true, but are completely irrelevant to the point of whether he was a reach pick at 4.

  43. Dashingsilverfox says:

    G Money:
    Rational Zealot,

    Again, if you’re going to be a pompous jackass, at least be right.

    Clearly you have NOT read the scouting reports you reference.

    Even the ones as recent as May of this year still say “Top 4″ or “Top Pairing”.

    And while they all reference the fact that he was used as a shutdown defensemen because of his stellar positioning, all of them, every one of them, make reference to mobility, ability to pass the puck, ability to jump into the play, and ability to hit to hurt.The main reference to ‘size’ is ‘doesn’t use it enough’.This suggests he’s being marked down, old school Jeff Petry style, for not using his size rather than lauded for having it.

    Pompous jackass?

    Everytime I see your name I think of Foghorn Leghorn.

  44. G Money says:

    Lackadaisical: To be fair, he also called himself a Zealot.
    Maybe just go by Misnomer guy, or Oxymoron?

    LOL, yeah. It wasn’t that long ago I distinctly remember him actually being pretty rational.

    Maybe Eakins broke him.

  45. Lackadaisical says:

    G Money,

    Would you mind linking those articles on Griff?

    I must remain true to my handle.

  46. Pouzar says:

    elphy101: Hmm a quick perusal of top pairing defensemen’s AHL history would disagree strongly with your statement.Only exceptions I found were Subban, OEL and Kronwall.

    Zdeno Chara
    17 point 71 games

    Ryan Ellis
    32 points in 61 AHL games

    Jay Bouwmeester
    17 points in 64 AHL games

    Duncan Keith
    51 pts in 154 AHL games

    Ryan Suter
    23 pts in 63 AHL games

    Mark Giordano
    16 points in 66 AHL games (first season)

    Ryan Mcdonagh
    12 points in 38 AHL Games

    Check out that bum Duncan Keith.

  47. pocession charge says:

    G Money:
    Mtl-oiler,

    Actually, I haven’t read anything from the NYI side (so far) that says they’re worried about his development.

    In fact, two different articles distinctly quoted Snow as saying “The only way I trade him is if you give me an offer that blows me away.”

    Which presumably Chia did.

    Time will tell whether Chia & Green & co. were right.

    But the fact that NYI traded him is hardly a slight.The price was dear, was it not?Isn’t that what has everyone’s shorts in a knot?

    For me, I’m not satisfied by getting a prospect in return. I think they needed an established defender. I hope to hell that Reinhart knocks it out of the park here, but I will temper my expectations on that.

  48. G Money says:

    Dashingsilverfox: Pompous jackass?
    Everytime I see your name I think of Foghorn Leghorn.

    LOL, yeah. Your opinions are just as well considered, and as well respected, as Rational’s.

    I will, however, make sure to consult you if I need information about the underside of a bridge. I’m certain your knowledge in that realm, unlike hockey, is substantive and worthwhile.

  49. thehop says:

    G money does he make the club next year based on his previous pedigree and performance. And if so, who do you pair him with come September?

    You appear, as with the Schultz dilemma,to be one of the few here who sees value in real life hockey players and not draft picks.

  50. Rational Zealot says:

    And if your starting point is that he was a top five pick you are starting at the wrong place. As has been pointed out his going there (and being rated there) is a case of the bullshit intangibles and size fetish of scouting. Reinhart was the Crouse of his draft year. Which has been born out by how many defenseman in his draft year have, very tangibly, past him.

    And yet Gmoney, not a day removed from his everything can be counted rant, is defended the guy whose entire reputation is based upon intangibles. Reinhart is the poster child of scouting mysticism.

  51. Lackadaisical says:

    G Money: LOL, yeah.It wasn’t that long ago I distinctly remember him actually being pretty rational.

    Maybe Eakins broke him.

    I never want to stop blaming things on Eakins. He makes me irrationally angry.

  52. elphy101 says:

    G Money: If that is true, then that is a horrible failure of scouting.

    Bob Green’s interview said he had not seen him in the AHL this year. Chiarelli did say he’s seen him a few times this year. No comments on any of the other scouts.

  53. Rational Zealot says:

    hags9k:
    I don’t know much, but I do know it is way too early in GR’s career to be pulling out the bust word.Depreciating asset? Maybe.Go lower in a re-draft? Sure. But let’s try and remember the 5 year rule people.He could easily become a good NHLer for us.

    I don’t like this deal today but I don’t think we can say for certain what he will be at this point.

    The five year rule has to do with whether you give up on a prospect. No one is saying cut him. Simply that he hasn’t progressed as a top five pick should and hence treating him as a top five pick is irrational.

  54. theres oil in virginia says:

    Lackadaisical:
    G Money,

    Would you mind linking those articles on Griff?

    I must remain true to my handle.

    What’s the matter you don’t want to go through 5,762 posts to find the links? Here’s one:

    http://islesbeat.com/2015/06/a-reality-check-on-griffin-reinhart/

  55. elphy101 says:

    Rational Zealot: Yes, nothing.What percentage of junior players do you think are meaningful NHL players?It approaches the vanishing point.

    We didn’t trade magic beans for magic beans.I’d die for magic beans.

    WHL Playoff MVP’s last 10 years

    2015 Leon Draisaitl Kelowna Rockets
    2014 Griffin Reinhart Edmonton Oil Kings
    2013 Ty Rattie Portland Winterhawks
    2012 Laurent Brossoit Edmonton Oil Kings
    2011 Nathan Lieuwen Kootenay Ice
    2010 Martin Jones Calgary Hitmen
    2009 Tyler Myers Kelowna Rockets
    2008 Tyler Johnson Spokane Chiefs
    2007 Matt Keetley Medicine Hat Tigers
    2006 Gilbert Brule Vancouver Giants
    2005 Shea Weber Kelowna Rockets

    Some pretty good players on that list. Only a few that haven’t become very good NHL’ers.

  56. thehop says:

    Rational Zealot,

    Hahahaha! God forbid someone backs their claims with logic and reasoning as G does more often than most here. You lost me at fuck you man. And you know when DSF is backing you up, you are on the wrong side of the bridge man.

  57. Rational Zealot says:

    slopitch: Or Gudbranson. Is that Griffins worst case? The book on Griffins development isnt done yet. Only 21.

    Gudbranson is a very good comparison, though I’d say that’s the best case scenario.

  58. theres oil in virginia says:

    G Money: LOL, yeah. Your opinions are just as well considered, and as well respected, as Rational’s.

    I’m not sure which one that insults the most, at this point.

  59. Lackadaisical says:

    thehop:
    G money does he make the club next year based on his previous pedigree and performance. And if so, who do you pair him with come September?

    You appear, as with the Schultz dilemma,to be one of the few here who sees value in real life hockey players and not draft picks.

    G Money,

    Also, what do you guys think about what stephen sheps put forward. That post went a long way to easing my worries (although it could be the wobbly pop kicking in). My instinct is that Griff and Jultz will pull at each other in a potentially interesting developmental way.

  60. G Money says:

    Lackadaisical,

    Here’s a few of interest:

    http://thehockeywriters.com/should-the-islanders-trade-griffin-reinhart/ – where they discuss Reinhart dropping from best to second best D prospect on the Isles roster, and mull the idea of the Isles trading him to Edmonton for Jordan Eberle (seriously)

    http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/nyi150601.html – “So don’t expect Reinhart to go anywhere unless someone goes crazy. Garth won’t blink on this.”

    http://islesbeat.com/2015/06/a-reality-check-on-griffin-reinhart/ (same writer, perhaps same interview with Snow) – “This doesn’t mean he is an un-tradable asset. But it does mean the Islanders would need to be… and I quote… “blown away” by an offer.”

  61. stephen sheps says:

    Mtl-oiler:
    stephen sheps,

    1) Griff is projected to be a 2-3 defenceman who has a reputation of playing tough competition.

    That’s the problem. As G Money said “look at the big picture above” where it says “projected: No. 1 complete D” in 2012. Now he”s a 2-3 D. What happenedÉ

    As said before there`s a reason the Islanders traded him. I definitely don`t think they would have traded him if was progressing as even a 2-3 D. They obviously thought that he wasn`t.

    perhaps, or perhaps they’re log-jammed at D with Leddy, Hamonic, De Haan, Hickey and Boychuk in their top 4 (yes I know that’s 5 players) and decided to move an asset.

    Trading a player does not mean the player is bad. People keep coming back to Hamilton as a comparison. He’s an excellent young player and was traded. Seguin is an excellent young player who was traded. Marincin is an excellent young player who could be traded (though I hope he’s not!). Chara was traded when he was still a very raw player after 4 years in the Isles organization. There are plenty of players who are moved and for a myriad of reasons. To claim that he was moved as evidence of him not being a good player isn’t exactly a logical statement.

    To your other point, perhaps when he was drafted he was projected as a 1-2, now he’s a 2-3. That’s still a valuable player, especially for a team like the Oilers.

  62. Lackadaisical says:

    theres oil in virginia: What’s the matter you don’t want to go through 5,762 posts to find the links?Here’s one:

    http://islesbeat.com/2015/06/a-reality-check-on-griffin-reinhart/

    Rofl. Much obliged!

  63. Магия 10 says:

    G Money: LOL, yeah.Your opinions are just as well considered, and as well respected, as Rational’s.

    I will, however, make sure to consult you if I need information about the underside of a bridge.I’m certain your knowledge in that realm, unlike hockey, is substantive and worthwhile.

    Actially DSF calculates development probabilities quite well. His rush to call top 2 in more than 2 years failure is a reliable guide to expecting it to normally arrive after the goalpost..

  64. Lackadaisical says:

    G Money:
    Lackadaisical,

    Here’s a few of interest:

    http://thehockeywriters.com/should-the-islanders-trade-griffin-reinhart/ – where they discuss Reinhart dropping from best to second best D prospect on the Isles roster, and mull the idea of the Isles trading him to Edmonton for Jordan Eberle (seriously)

    http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/nyi150601.html – “So don’t expect Reinhart to go anywhere unless someone goes crazy. Garth won’t blink on this.”

    http://islesbeat.com/2015/06/a-reality-check-on-griffin-reinhart/ (same writer, perhaps same interview with Snow) – “This doesn’t mean he is an un-tradable asset. But it does mean the Islanders would need to be… and I quote… “blown away” by an offer.”

    Perfect!

  65. Ryan says:

    slopitch,

    That doesn’t mean that this was a particularly savvy trade either.

    The Oilers traded for a 4 OV from a weak draft year whom no one can describe as anything but a declining asset with potential as a left shot top four stay at home defensemen (best case), 5/6 d (most likely), or Tuebert (worst case).

    For 16/33 picks in one of the strongest drafts in years…

    The traded hard currency for a player they didn’t particularly need and paid a high price.

    I think that this trade has smartest man in the room written all over it while history itself will be the judge.

  66. theres oil in virginia says:

    thehop: And you know when DSF is backing you up, you are on the wrong side of the bridge man.

    Is that the left or the right side? North? South? Aaahhh…

  67. Mtl-oiler says:

    thehop,

    He’s played 9 games. 9 games and that for you is a “real hockey player”? Really?

    For me he’s just an older “draft pick” who we will find out if he’s a “real hockey” or bust sooner than the 2 draft picks (who also may become “real hockey players”) sooner 1-2 years rather 3-5.
    I would’ve preferred sticking with the 2. Better odds.

  68. Rational Zealot says:

    thehop:
    Rational Zealot,

    Hahahaha! God forbid someone backs their claims with logic and reasoning as G does more often than most here. You lost me at fuck you man. And you know when DSF is backing you up, you are on the wrong side of the bridge man.

    He started it.

    But in any case, I actually like Gmoney, but once the insults start flying I lay down for no man.

  69. blainer says:

    Rational Zealot:
    Look at the guys in his draft.Where is his value, realistically?Rielly, Lindholm, Dumba, Trouba, and Maata have all flown past him.Those are the guys with top potential.We didn’t trade for any of them.

    He’s in the next group, behind Pouliot.The guys with a shot at an NHL career.Trading basically two first round picks for that is batshit crazy.

    Yea you are correct those players are ahead of GR today. That does not mean that GR will not pass them in the next year. Hamilton was just a good prospect two years ago and look at him this year. Try and look at the glass as half full and wait one year you may just be surprised. Better than having to wait up to five years on the other two picks.

    I would not be surprised at all if Reinhart has a breakout year. In reality it’s not like we are gonna get a choice anyway. I for one am glad to see us at least trying to get better…. Finally.. I will say though Chia looked a bit freaked out.. maybe it was the shrooms..lol…

  70. Pajamah says:

    As per Jason Gregor and Millard, Burns would waive his NTC to come to Edmonton.

    Not that there is a deal in place, or even one necessarily discussed, but there’s that.

  71. rich says:

    May I suggest something here 400+ comments in? Trying to be rationale after several glasses of red wine probably is not my best move, but the real issue here is expectations.

    Much of the underlying disappointment in this trade is that many of us believed that after 9 years of being sold BS from Lowe/Tambellini/MacT we finally had a GM who was not going to over promise and under-deliver. He’s going to do something that’s going to make us all proud to be Oiler fans again.

    No way to screw up the #1 pick and now we come to the #16 and instead of getting another prospect, we make a trade. That’s ok in and of itself but when it comes down it’s a matter of trading 2 prospects for a prospect. The new prospect is a little further down the development path, but still not an absolute lock.

    Juxtaposed against what Calgary did today, it makes it a little tougher because this is a bigger gamble (trading 2 prospects for 1). None of the players may work out in the end, or maybe Reinhart does, but we don’t know, and after 9 years, I think all of us are collectively tired of being sold promises and just want some damn certainty when we’re making a trade.

    The weekend is not a total bust and I think we’ll be ok, but I’d suggest PC’s next few moves had better bring the big picture into focus or there’s going to be some real nervousness and a short honeymoon here.

  72. pocession charge says:

    Hey remember that time Chia called Florida a city instead of a province?

  73. Pajamah says:

    Rational Zealot: He started it.

    But in any case, I actually like Gmoney, but once the insults start flying I lay down for no man.

    First the Fuck You, then the “he started it”

    I’m sure you don’t need to be told how ridiculous this all sounds

  74. hags9k says:

    pocession charge,

    Yeah that was awesome.

  75. Rational Zealot says:

    Pajamah:
    As per Jason Gregor and Millard, Burns would waive his NTC to come to Edmonton.

    Not that there is a deal in place, or even one necessarily discussed, but there’s that.

    We should trade Reinhart for him? That would be a great trade.

    Trading the #16 and #33 pick for Burns on the other hand would be terrible.

  76. Rational Zealot says:

    Pajamah: First the Fuck You, then the “he started it”

    I’m sure you don’t need to be told how ridiculous this all sounds

    Of course not.

    Now go read the posts. He was being a pompous jackass.

  77. Lackadaisical says:

    Mtl-oiler:
    thehop,

    He’s played 9 games. 9 games and that for you is a “real hockey player”? Really?

    For me he’s just an older “draft pick” who we will find out if he’s a “real hockey” or bust sooner than the 2 draft picks (who also may become “real hockey players”) sooner 1-2 years rather 3-5.
    I would’ve preferred sticking with the 2. Better odds.

    This board is always talking about sheltering players, especially D. Well, they developed him the way we’ve been calling for, and d-men usually hit their stride around 23/24.

    Many are claiming he’s fairly similar to Nurse. Would you give up Nurse for a 16 + 33?

    It seems, he’s a well sheltered and developed D-man with the pedigree and scouting reports to be a top four guy within 2 years.

  78. stephen sheps says:

    Pajamah:
    As per Jason Gregor and Millard, Burns would waive his NTC to come to Edmonton.

    Not that there is a deal in place, or even one necessarily discussed, but there’s that.

    yes please. That would solve some problems. Ok, a lot of problems.

    (still need a goalie though)

    and one last time, since the tone has shifted away from the celebration tonight should have been….
    MCDAVID WOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!

  79. G Money says:

    I should emphasize something, because I’m not sure its clear.

    No doubt a number of folks here have pigeonholed me as somehow defending this trade.

    I am not.

    I simply don’t know whether it was a good trade or not.

    So I’ve done what I always do: research to try and understand as best I can the reality of the situation.

    What I can tell you so far is that everything I’ve read so far indicates that Griffin Reinhart is reasonably on track to be a Top 4 or Top Pairing defender. His speciality is actually playing defense, but he also brings mobility, puck movement, jumping into the play, and size to the equation. This is why he has a reputation for being a ‘complete defender’.

    Conversely, those who insist that Reinhart is a failure, hasn’t progressed, this that and the other thing: frankly, as far as I can tell, you’re arguing out your asses. Hearsay and assumption, as far as I can tell.

    Not one of you has provided support for your position other than “I saw him bad in the WHL”. A position strongly contradicted by others who watched the Oil Kings a lot.

    There are two legitimate concerns with Reinhart: his lack of scoring, and the fact that he played for Green with the Oil Kings.

    Where does that leave us?

    Green may be right – this guy may be an all tools defender ready to break into the NHL and work his way up to be a legit top pairing defender. If that’s the case, 16 and 33 are a bargain.

    The naysayers may be right – Green may be talking his book, and the lack of scoring is indicative of a guy whose ceiling is defensive defenseman in a 2, 4, or 6D role.

    If that’s the case, 16 and 33 could very well have been a painfully steep price to pay – but to lose sleep over that is strange to me, because it depends on who those picks turn into. The assumption of ‘steep price’ results from conflating ‘pick in a deep draft’ with ‘guaranteed NHL star’. That’s wrong.

    I will wait until training camp, have a gander at Mr. Reinhart in game situations in the NHL, and then decide whether it was a steep price.

    Arguing with certainty at this point that the trade was either a success or a failure is, to be frank, stuff and nonsense.

  80. LadiesloveSmid says:

    I’m really rooting for Reinhart at this point. I like this site because I’m most definitely not the smartest guy in the room, so I know I’m in the right room. But, damn you guys are seriously negative. If only Colin white was available at 16, are we having this conversation? I was crossing my fingers hoping for Barzal, but I don’t have all that much of a problem with Reinhart. If he was a right shot, he’d be a great fit. I assume 1 one Nurse-Klefbom-Reinhart moves to the right side.

    Let’s root for the kid. He’s an oiler now. And he isn’t a bad player, if i was a betting man I’d bet he’s a solid #3D some time down the road behind Nurse-Klefbom. Hopefully he beats our expectations (especially of those expecting a 5/6 guy).

    Pronman says “He’s a big D who moves well for a player his size, has elite hockey IQ and can move a puck. He’s just not a top-end offensive talent and never has been. He remains a top-30 to -45 prospect outside the NHL though and is a huge boost to the Oilers system”.

    I’m just glad those picks weren’t used on Talbot, and I’m hoping for the best.

    GMoney, I really appreciate your positivity and effort to come into this with an open mind. It’s refreshing from everything else that’s been posted.

  81. Halfwise says:

    Rational Zealot:

    Now go read the posts.He was being a pompous jackass.

    “It all started when he fired back”

  82. G Money says:

    Rational Zealot: But in any case, I actually like Gmoney, but once the insults start flying I lay down for no man.

    I love you too, man.

    NOW FUCK OFF!!!!!

    🙂

  83. Rational Zealot says:

    Lackadaisical,

    Who the hell is calling Reinhart similar to Nurse?

    In Nurse’s draft + 1 season in the OHL he scored 50 pts in 64 games.
    + 2 season , 33 in 36

    Reinhart + 1 season he scored 29 in 59 (less than in his draft year).
    +2 season he scored 21 in 45 games.

    These guys are not comparable. One is a top prospect. The other isn’t.

  84. blainer says:

    G Money:
    I should emphasize something, because I’m not sure its clear.

    No doubt a number of folks here have pigeonholed me as somehow defending this trade.

    I am not.

    I simply don’t know whether it was a good trade or not.

    So I’ve done what I always do: research to try and understand as best I can the reality of the situation.

    What I can tell you so far is that everything I’ve read so far indicates that Griffin Reinhart is reasonably on track to be a Top 4 or Top Pairing defender.His speciality is actually playing defense, but he also brings mobility, puck movement, jumping into the play, and size to the equation.This is why he has a reputation for being a ‘complete defender’.

    Conversely, those who insist that Reinhart is a failure, hasn’t progressed, this that and the other thing: frankly, as far as I can tell, you’re arguing out your asses.Hearsay and assumption, as far as I can tell.

    Not one of you has provided support for your position other than “I saw him bad in the WHL”.A position strongly contradicted by others who watched the Oil Kings a lot.

    There are two legitimate concerns with Reinhart: his lack of scoring, and the fact that he played for Green with the Oil Kings.

    Where does that leave us?

    Green may be right – this guy may be an all tools defender ready to break into the NHL and work his way up to be a legit top pairing defender.If that’s the case, 16 and 33 are a bargain.

    The naysayers may be right – Green may be talking his book, and the lack of scoring is indicative of a guy whose ceiling is defensive defenseman in a 2, 4, or 6D role.

    If that’s the case, 16 and 33 could very well have been a painfully steep price to pay – but to lose sleep over that is strange to me, because it depends on who those picks turn into. The assumption of ‘steep price’ results from conflating ‘pick in a deep draft’ with ‘guaranteed NHL star’. That’s wrong.

    I will wait until training camp, have a gander at Mr. Reinhart in game situations in the NHL, and then decide whether it was a steep price.

    Arguing with certainty at this point that the trade was either a success or a failure is, to be frank, stuff and nonsense.

    Thank you .. just how I feel. now it’s time for me to go to sleep…

  85. Pajamah says:

    Rational Zealot: Of course not.

    Now go read the posts.He was being a pompous jackass.

    Maybe he was, but up until you told him to fuck off, there was atleast meaningful discussion. Say your piece, defend your viewpoint, then tell him to fuck off. There is atleast value in that.

  86. Pouzar says:

    G Money:
    flyfish1168,

    elphy101,

    A while back I looked at the top 10 D by ice time in the NHL.It was testing whether the assertion that teams today are more urgently moving their D draft picks into the NHL, and therefore a delay in doing that (a la Nurse or Reinhart) is therefore indicative of failure.

    Of those 9, only one (Doughty) did not spend time in a development league after being drafted.Every player spent at least part, usually all, of one, and in some cases two or three years in a lower league before making the NHL.

    I then looked at the D drafted in the last three years in the first two rounds.Of all those D, only three played more than the ELC-limit of 9 games in the NHL in their first year.All the rest spent at least one additional year in either Jr or the AHL or both.

    The idea that Reinhart cannot be a top pairing D because he spent a year in the WHL and another in the AHL is patently false.

    This is the normal course, not the exception, for D in the NHL.

    Am I the only one NOT surprised by this? Nice work G.

  87. Lackadaisical says:

    G Money:
    I should emphasize something, because I’m not sure its clear.

    No doubt a number of folks here have pigeonholed me as somehow defending this trade.

    I am not.

    I simply don’t know whether it was a good trade or not.

    So I’ve done what I always do: research to try and understand as best I can the reality of the situation.

    What I can tell you so far is that everything I’ve read so far indicates that Griffin Reinhart is reasonably on track to be a Top 4 or Top Pairing defender.His speciality is actually playing defense, but he also brings mobility, puck movement, jumping into the play, and size to the equation.This is why he has a reputation for being a ‘complete defender’.

    Conversely, those who insist that Reinhart is a failure, hasn’t progressed, this that and the other thing: frankly, as far as I can tell, you’re arguing out your asses.Hearsay and assumption, as far as I can tell.

    Not one of you has provided support for your position other than “I saw him bad in the WHL”.A position strongly contradicted by others who watched the Oil Kings a lot.

    There are two legitimate concerns with Reinhart: his lack of scoring, and the fact that he played for Green with the Oil Kings.

    Where does that leave us?

    Green may be right – this guy may be an all tools defender ready to break into the NHL and work his way up to be a legit top pairing defender.If that’s the case, 16 and 33 are a bargain.

    The naysayers may be right – Green may be talking his book, and the lack of scoring is indicative of a guy whose ceiling is defensive defenseman in a 2, 4, or 6D role.

    If that’s the case, 16 and 33 could very well have been a painfully steep price to pay – but to lose sleep over that is strange to me, because it depends on who those picks turn into. The assumption of ‘steep price’ results from conflating ‘pick in a deep draft’ with ‘guaranteed NHL star’. That’s wrong.

    I will wait until training camp, have a gander at Mr. Reinhart in game situations in the NHL, and then decide whether it was a steep price.

    Arguing with certainty at this point that the trade was either a success or a failure is, to be frank, stuff and nonsense.

    This post and attitude good example of why I like your work.

    I’m starting to actually like the player. I don’t think there’s a way to like this trade for a couple of years.

  88. pocession charge says:

    stephen sheps: yes please. That would solve some problems. Ok, a lot of problems.

    (still need a goalie though)

    and one last time, since the tone has shifted away from the celebration tonight should have been….
    MCDAVID WOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!

    Oh yeah we got that guy, too! I think Burns would be great but what would the Oilers have to give up to get him?

  89. G Money says:

    pocession charge,

    Hey, remember that time the Oilers drafted McDavid?

    That was awesome.

  90. godot10 says:

    Can’t we all just get along! -).-).

    Reinhart helps in McDavid’s ELC window. #16 and #33 don’t. Reinhart is unsexy. His offense, like Klefbom’s in lower leagues, is depressed because they get tasked with the defensive shutdown role.

    Reinhart is exactly the type of D the Oilers need, except that he is emerging and not proven, but he is right on the verge.

    The Islanders get Ryan Strome in junior for two years, and in the AHL for a full season. They have taken the Detroit model to heart.

  91. misfit says:

    Lackadaisical: Hmm wasn’t he playing right side with Sweden?Klefbom that this,

    (I’ve had a couple and my head is fuzzy from a long day of reading, I assume some of you are in this same boat.)

    Yeah, Klefbom did play RD with Sweden…not sure what that has to do with my post though. I made no mention of Klefbom. I was talking about Griffin, Schultz, and Nikitin.

    I’m not saying no LHS defensemen can play RD. Lots do. But not all of them can, yet people like to say they can despite them never actually doing it.

  92. Rational Zealot says:

    G Money,

    I’ll give you some of that empirical evidence you like so much. Reinhart’s pts/game in junior declined from his draft year By that indicator he is not on track, but rather has regressed. I’m sure you will say he was playing tougher minutes. Perhaps, but he was also surely playing more minutes. Moreover, Nurse’s usage would have changed in the same way and yet his numbers improved. That’s what a pick progressing looks like.

    As to the measure, it’s only one, but as Woodguy linked to a while back, points for defensemen has been more predictive of NHL success than draft rating. Defensemen who don’t score in junior don’t have a good track record in the NHL.

    Reinhart is not on track. There is no way to say he is. What does the future hold? I don’t know. But Reinhart has regressed. I see no way around that.

  93. Lackadaisical says:

    Rational Zealot:
    Lackadaisical,

    Who the hell is calling Reinhart similar to Nurse?

    In Nurse’s draft + 1 season in the OHL he scored 50 pts in 64 games.
    + 2 season , 33 in 36

    Reinhart + 1 season he scored 29in 59 (less than in his draft year).
    +2 season he scored 21 in 45 games.

    These guys are not comparable.One is a top prospect.The other isn’t.

    And Griff was battling injuries.

    Their used in a similar manner, and as Godot10 pointed out, the shutdown guys numbers get skewed.

  94. Lackadaisical says:

    misfit: Yeah, Klefbom did play RD with Sweden…not sure what that has to do with my post though.I made no mention of Klefbom.I was talking about Griffin, Schultz, and Nikitin.

    I’m not saying no LHS defensemen can play RD.Lots do.But not all of them can, yet people like to say they can despite them never actually doing it.

    At the time you were replying to someone talking about Klef playing the right, no?

    If not, my bad!

  95. Mtl-oiler says:

    stephen sheps,

    perhaps, or perhaps they’re log-jammed at D with Leddy, Hamonic, De Haan, Hickey and Boychuk in their top 4 (yes I know that’s 5 players) and decided to move an asset.
    Trading a player does not mean the player is bad. People keep coming back to Hamilton as a comparison. He’s an excellent young player and was traded. Seguin is an excellent young player who was traded. Marincin is an excellent young player who could be traded (though I hope he’s not!). Chara was traded when he was still a very raw player after 4 years in the Isles organization. There are plenty of players who are moved and for a myriad of reasons. To claim that he was moved as evidence of him not being a good player isn’t exactly a logical statement.
    To your other point, perhaps when he was drafted he was projected as a 1-2, now he’s a 2-3. That’s still a valuable player, especially for a team like the Oilers.

    So they have a log-jam at D and this is the reason he could not crack their top 4 (or 6 for that matter)? The great Islanders defense who helped the team finish 22nd in goal against could not use another “projected 2-3 D”? Really? Now that is what I say ” isn’t exactly a logical statement.”

  96. PaperDesigner says:

    As a fan, I want Reinhart to succeed. As someone who has been reading Oilers blogs for quite a while, I smell an underwhelming prospect. Maybe not a bust, but perhaps a player who is not going to live up to anywhere near his billing on draft day.

    We may have traded the 16th and 33rd pick for yet another third pairing defenceman. Only this one may be two years away.

    This bet makes me nervous. It’s too soon to say, ‘meet the new boss, same as the old boss’, but I’m at least nervous that it may apply here.

  97. pocession charge says:

    G Money:
    pocession charge,

    Hey, remember that time the Oilers drafted McDavid?

    That was awesome.

    I’ll be honest….that memory is a bit fuzzy. I drank a lot of beer today. I’m sure the pvr re-watch will stick in the ol’ hippocampus a bit more.

  98. Big Dan says:

    Sometimes it seems Oiler fans are never happy.

    I remember the Smid trade. How we got out of a bad contract and came out with Laurent Broissoit and Roman Horak (who has great hockey sense, just needs to bulk up – next Pisani). Yet it was a lot of gnashing of teeth about how we could have got more.

    Dubnyk completely fell apart and everybody was bemoaning Matt Hendricks and his contract coming back. I loved the trade because Hendricks was the exact kind of personality/leader we needed.

    That’s just a couple of examples.

    It seems a lot of Oiler fans just want to have crushes on prospects. Well, get used to this folks. Chiarelli loves to TRADE draft picks to improve his team at the NHL level. It would not surprise me to see him drop some picks for James Wisniewski tomorrow.

    Did Lowe and MacT perhaps get the ball rolling on a Reinhart deal? Perhaps. But Chiarelli clearly agreed with them. Do I think it’s a slight overpay? Yes.

    Do I love the trade? YES!!!!!! I just want to grab some fans by the neck and scream, “Don’t you know you just got a young, cheap version of Jay Bouwmeester?!”

    Reinhart is going to be here for 10 years and you’re going to love him. Klefbom/ Nurse/Marincin + Reinhart/Fayne/(Schultz’s replacement) will be a young, solid D a year from now. I think Davidson/Musil are great depth options.

    Sure, it was a bummer that Boston chose Calgary’s package over ours (which was basically the same offer). But Reinhart is a nice consolation prize. Don’t cloud the issue just because some other D like Reilly have surpassed Griffin. Or he hasn’t exploded on the scene like Nurse. Reinhart’s not going to dazzle you with physicality or stats. He’s smart, he’s defensive, he’s smooth, he’s reliable, he’s affordable. And he’s been developing just fine at a slow, steady pace.

    I personally disagree with some posters here. If I had to rank Reinhart on our depth chart, he is only behind Klefbom, Fayne, and Nurse (who’ll steadfastly be kept in Bakersfield until the deadline).

    Reinhart is better than Marincin, Schultz, Nikitin, and Ference IMHO. That’s more an indictment of the franchise’s lack of quality than a compliment to Reinhart. I am sure Chiarelli will pick up a veteran D like Wisniewski, Sekera, or Z.Michalek this summer to change that fact.

    But Reinhart is done developing after year 4 and is ready for the NHL. Just like Nurse will next year.

  99. G Money says:

    stephen sheps:
    G Money,

    yup, what you said…

    Also, Willis on the trade.

    worth a read

    http://oilersnation.com/2015/6/26/it-s-too-early-to-write-off-griffin-reinhart

    Well balanced article. Articulates both the upside and the downside risks. Nice set of positive comparables (Coburn, Alzner) and also some differentiation vis a vis skating from some busts (Tuebert and Plante).

    As you say, worth a read.

  100. Zelepukin says:

    I like to believe this whole trade actually hinges on the new coaching staff’s ability to properly teach our young D core on how to apply their skills to the NHL game. Nurse, Griffin, Jultz, and Klef have the speed, hands, shot and now size, to actually be effective NHL d-men, but under our old rotation of bumbling bench idiots it was either never going to happen or take years longer than it does elsewhere around the league.

  101. smellyglove says:

    http://oilersnation.com/2015/6/26/it-s-too-early-to-write-off-griffin-reinhart

    Reinhart has played a season of professional hockey since that post was written, albeit a season spent in the AHL. With the idea of getting an idea of his potential as a player, I decided to look at all the defencemen taken in the first 15 picks out of major junior since 2000 to spend the majority of their Draft+3 season in the minors….Not every player on this list turned out badly… Colten Teubert and Alex Plante both show up; those players need no introduction to Oilers fans. Many of the worst first-round picks in recent memory pop up on this list; generally big, plodding defencemen who were supposed to be shutdown guys and turned out to be far less than that.

  102. Rational Zealot says:

    Hamilton pts/game

    Draft year: 58 in 67
    +1: 72 in 50
    +2: 41 in 32

    Gudbranson

    Draft year: 23 in 41
    +1: 34 in 44.

    Would you be happy with trading the #16 and the #33 for Gudbranson? I sure as hell hope not.

  103. G Money says:

    Big Dan: Do I love the trade? YES!!!!!! I just want to grab some fans by the neck and scream, “Don’t you know you just got a young, cheap version of Jay Bouwmeester?!”

    It’s refreshing to hear someone positive on the trade, but I’ll ask the same question I asked others: is your opinion based on hearsay, based on his WHL career, or did you get a chance to watch him play in the AHL?

  104. Halfwise says:

    Comparison June 26 Results:
    Calgary: Gets Dougie Hamilton, has a week to come to a deal expected in the $6 – 7 Million per year range. Gives up a First and two Seconds in a deep draft.
    Edmonton: Gets Connor McDavid and can sign an entry level deal. Gets Griffin Reinhart with 2 more years of ELC left but player development is still required, and expected.
    Gives up a First and a high Second in a deep draft.

    Whose fans should be happier?

    It’s no contest, people. This has been a pretty good day.

  105. G Money says:

    Rational Zealot,

    You’re wrong.

    Yes, his numbers declined in the WHL as he got used in a shutdown role as he got older.

    But his points in the AHL actually exceed his projected offense based on his WHL usage. This should at least give you pause that your taking two years and using that as a definitive marker of skill may not be as ‘rational’ as you claim it to be.

    And he’s *still* being used in a shutdown type of role, as a rookie.

    I worry about his lack of offense.

    But I find that type of usage at such a young age in a pro league to be very very impressive.

  106. stephen sheps says:

    Mtl-oiler:
    stephen sheps,

    perhaps, or perhaps they’re log-jammed at D with Leddy, Hamonic, De Haan, Hickey and Boychuk in their top 4 (yes I know that’s 5 players) and decided to move an asset.
    Trading a player does not mean the player is bad. People keep coming back to Hamilton as a comparison. He’s an excellent young player and was traded. Seguin is an excellent young player who was traded. Marincin is an excellent young player who could be traded (though I hope he’s not!). Chara was traded when he was still a very raw player after 4 years in the Isles organization. There are plenty of players who are moved and for a myriad of reasons. To claim that he was moved as evidence of him not being a good player isn’t exactly a logical statement.
    To your other point, perhaps when he was drafted he was projected as a 1-2, now he’s a 2-3. That’s still a valuable player, especially for a team like the Oilers.

    So they have a log-jam at D and this is the reason he could not crack their top 4 (or 6 for that matter)? The great Islanders defense who helped the team finish 22nd in goal against could not use another “projected 2-3 D”? Really? Now that is what I say ” isn’t exactly a logical statement.”

    Key word – projected. They had veterans ahead of him and wanted him to develop rather than rush him to the show. The Islanders have several players who are quite good at playing defence with pro experience. So, while you’ve conveniently ignored each time I’ve said that I am not sure if it’s a great trade or a bad one, I’ve said he’s projected to be something – not that he is. Will he become that player? Maybe.

    However, just to be clear here… what I said was not a ‘logical statement’ was your insistence that being traded is solid evidence of being bad. I don’t want to get into a mudslinging or pissing contest, but please don’t mis-quote me or try to pick a fight. It’s not worth my time or anyone else’s. This is supposed to be a happy place, especially after McDavid.

  107. Rational Zealot says:

    As to the log jammed depth chart of the Islanders D, they played the immortals Matt Donovan and Scott Mayfield this year with their season on the line. The Islanders think Donovan and Mayfield are better than Reinhart. Not Boychuk and Leddy, Donovan and Mayfield.

  108. 719 says:

    misfit: Can he though?We heard Stauffer say the same about Nikitin a hundred times, whether he was prompted or not, but the fact is he had never played on the right side in his entire NHL career and so far hasn’t played RD for us either.

    The same was said about Nick Schultz after we got him.The GM who traded for him made a point of saying so the same day he made the trade.Schultz never played RD with the only NHL team he’d ever played with to that point, nor did he do so in his 2 years in Edmonton.Not even when paired with another LD.It was always the other guy (Whitney) who played the right side.

    Now, I’ll admit I hadn’t watched him in the AHL last year, but I know for a fact that he stayed at LD with the Oil Kings.

    So aside from “because it would be better if he could”, do we have any evidence he can, or has ever, played RD?Any at all?

    Yes Klef played right side in the Worlds with OEL. He also has played right side internationally and a little bit in the AHL too.

  109. Suntory Hanzo says:

    G Money,

    G$ having an awesome McDavid day.

    He’ll tell one newb to Fuck Off, and then he’ll tell another.

  110. till_horcoff_is_coach says:

    Coming into today I thought the ideal play was Drai for #4 to snag Hanifin. Hamilton was Sweeney’s attempt to make headlines over Murray, but that was not even a dream before the day.

    Now instead they paid two bullets but got a similar prospect (though clearly a slight step lesser). However they still have EVERY ONE of the top guns PLUS cap room to still acquire more help.

    I’m not thrilled it cost the 33rd but these deals have to be negotiated ahead of time. It was shocking to see the talent fall, but developing another prospect is not a priority… competing in the CMD timeline is.

    As has been pointed out this will be more clear at training camp but I’m expecting GR to be ready for top-4 duty now and future potential… if that is the case then bullets be damned, the needle is moving forward.

  111. G Money says:

    thehop: G money does he make the club next year based on his previous pedigree and performance. And if so, who do you pair him with come September?

    I’ll say two things:
    – Given the point in his development, and given the weakness of the Oiler D, and the price paid, if he can’t break onto the roster next year, that will be an unadulterated disappointment. Given all his tools, for him not to be better than Ference or Nikitin would be a shame
    – Tough to project the pairing. As a mobile but defense-first guy, I could see him pairing well with Marincin. Which also (hopefully) leaves me to believe that Chia will add a top end D, and the Top 4 will be new guy-Fayne-Klefbom-Schultz.

    I know people hate the latter, but the K-S pairing as an OZS pairing is actually really good by the numbers, and scoring dries up into a desert when they’re not on the ice, even adjusted for zone starts.

  112. Boil-in-the-Oil says:

    So it takes 2 to tango. Dougie is still an RFA. Wonder what the Flames offer him? Is it wrong to hope Dougie has raised his price?

    I believe they have 1 week to sign him before we could offer-sheet him. Oh to dream.

  113. G Money says:

    Suntory Hanzo:
    G Money,

    G$ having an awesome McDavid day.

    He’ll tell one newb to Fuck Off, and then he’ll tell another.

    Damn straight.

    NOW FUCK OFF!!!!!!

    😀

  114. stephen sheps says:

    Rational Zealot,

    Matt Donovan 25 yrs old. 2014-15 12GP + 2 in the playoffs
    Scott Mayfield 22 yrs old 2014-15 5GP + 2 in the playoffs
    Griffin Reinhart 21 yrs old 2014-15 8GP + 1 in the playoffs

    my friend, I appreciate the perspective, and mean no disrespect at all, but I don’t think either of these fellows were necessarily chosen as better prospects than GR, particularly Donovan. And perhaps given that both players had been playing professional hockey a little bit (or in Donovan’s case a lot) longer, maybe they seemed like better choices to come up to play 6D minutes so that GR could get top minutes on the farm. I don’t know this to be true, didn’t get game logs or TOI data, but it’s a possibility. It is also the sort of development strategy many on this blog have espoused as a pretty good way to ensure top prospects develop the right way – in positions where they can succeed.

    Again – I am not sold on the deal, but the amount of ‘sky-is-falling’ negativity is really mind boggling. It’s a new day around here. And who knows, maybe, just maybe the new coaching staff and GM/POHO have a plan.

  115. Lackadaisical says:

    719,
    misfit,

    Ah there, that’s the guy you were responding to Misfit, though I doubt you’ll catch this now.

    How was he on the right? Is this a legitimate permanent option for us moving forward?

  116. Kel Varnson says:

    Hello LT long time lurker first time commentator, just wanted to add my opinion. I’m super glad for reinhart trade, i think we added a guy who should be ready this year for nhl duty, and also will be big improvement on our d. I’m glad chia didn’t trade 16 for a guy approaching 30.

    But on side note it would have been so sweet to get Hamilton, but definitley not for the cost of Nurse. Klefbom, Nurse, Reinhart is a pretty good future, just need some right handed dman to compliment them

  117. Big Dan says:

    G Money,

    I honestly have not seen him play in the AHL. I did watch an Islander game this season when he was in the lineup. He was basically the invisible, unspectacular defenseman you expect. There are many, many D like that in the NHL and they are valuable especially if they are RHD.

    Reinhart will have a long career. At best, he could be Jay Bouwmeester. At worst, he’s a 3rd pairing guy.

    You know, I’d hate to be a Bruins fan right now. They trade Lucic and Hamilton away and have three first rounders in a row and pick CRAP. This draft for them is like 2007 for the Oiler franchise when they pissed their 3 picks away (Gagner, Plante, R.Nash).

    If Reinhart doesn’t turn out, we’ll be grumbling that we could have had Svechnikov and Kylington. Nothing in life is a sure thing but Chiarelli sure has balls. Chiarelli doesn’t want to wait 3 years for kids. He wants a guy who can contribute now and grow and improve with the core tomorrow. I’m on board with that.

    Reinhart is TWENTY ONE YEARS OLD. It is impossible to predict what he’ll turn out to be, but it is way way too early to write him off. This is not Alex Plante or Colten Teubert here. I think it was a good bet for Chiarelli to take.

    On another note, I watched a Ranger game back in November when Lundqvist was hurt. This was the time when the Yakupov for Talbot rumors were emerging. I thought they were ludicrous. I watched Talbot win 3-1, get first star, and thought wow… this guy is good. He looks so calm and confident out there.

    Now, I could be wrong. The Rangers are a heckuva team defensively. But I have a feeling Talbot is going to be awesome and I am hoping Sather’s asking price just got knocked down enough for us to come out with Talbot. I don’t think Neuvirth/ Enroth/Niemi is the answer. I’ve watched a lot of Ramo and he’s “ok”… I’d rather have him than them.

  118. ashley says:

    G Money,

    Good stuff G. The answer is: Nobody knows whether Griffin will be good, bad, or mediocre yet. We don’t have enough information. Math doesn’t work well on defense-first dmen.

    So time will tell. If it works out, this is exactly what the Oilers need…an ELC high end dman they can run for cheap for 7 years during this glorious opportunity. This gives him far more potential value to the Oilers than Hamilton for those comparing to a trade that was not available to the Oilers.

    Hamilton may always be the better player. But cap management is going to be a major problem for this team, and value contracts are going to be key. Hamilton means sending someone away likely before the cluster is ripe since he needs to be paid now as point producing dmen always are.

    It’s time to roll, and therefore I like the bet. And if it doesn’t work out that still doesn’t mean it wasn’t a good bet.

  119. LMHF#1 says:

    G Money:
    I should emphasize something, because I’m not sure its clear.

    I will wait until training camp, have a gander at Mr. Reinhart in game situations in the NHL, and then decide whether it was a steep price.

    Some may have made that mistake but they should not have.

    Remember though, that the question isn’t how well Reinhart does, it is Reinhart vs. anything else that could have been done with those assets. That’s where this has huge potential to fall down, as LT rightly points out in his post.

  120. Pouzar says:

    http://www.ctpost.com/sports/article/Defenseman-Reinhart-adapting-to-pro-game-6159167.php

    “(Recently) his gaps have been better. He’s closing on line rushes a little quicker.”

    And some of those counting numbers are best understood in a team context. Bridgeport has given up more goals than anyone in the league, and Reinhart often draws a matchup with other teams’ top players.

  121. spoiler says:

    theres oil in virginia:

    Thanks!

    And as the guy who had him lowest, I stand behind that scouting report lol.

    Seriously peeps…

    Do you actually think that if Reinhart was covering his draft slot he could be had for 16+33?

    He is not Jones Nurse Hamilton.

    He is more like Bogo and Myers… big guys who can actually play on their own end, make a pass and are blessed with a big shot.

    The ask looks right to me.

    And keep in mind he lost a big chunk of dev time to injury so is running slightly behind the curve.

    Do we really think Green can’t tell if a Dman can pivot in both directions? He is not Barker.

  122. Магия 10 says:

    G Money:
    I should emphasize something, because I’m not sure its clear.

    No doubt a number of folks here have pigeonholed me as somehow defending this trade.

    I am not.

    I simply don’t know whether it was a good trade or not.

    So I’ve done what I always do: research to try and understand as best I can the reality of the situation.

    What I can tell you so far is that everything I’ve read so far indicates that Griffin Reinhart is reasonably on track to be a Top 4 or Top Pairing defender.His speciality is actually playing defense, but he also brings mobility, puck movement, jumping into the play, and size to the equation.This is why he has a reputation for being a ‘complete defender’.

    Conversely, those who insist that Reinhart is a failure, hasn’t progressed, this that and the other thing: frankly, as far as I can tell, you’re arguing out your asses.Hearsay and assumption, as far as I can tell.

    Not one of you has provided support for your position other than “I saw him bad in the WHL”.A position strongly contradicted by others who watched the Oil Kings a lot.

    There are two legitimate concerns with Reinhart: his lack of scoring, and the fact that he played for Green with the Oil Kings.

    Where does that leave us?

    Green may be right – this guy may be an all tools defender ready to break into the NHL and work his way up to be a legit top pairing defender.If that’s the case, 16 and 33 are a bargain.

    The naysayers may be right – Green may be talking his book, and the lack of scoring is indicative of a guy whose ceiling is defensive defenseman in a 2, 4, or 6D role.

    If that’s the case, 16 and 33 could very well have been a painfully steep price to pay – but to lose sleep over that is strange to me, because it depends on who those picks turn into. The assumption of ‘steep price’ results from conflating ‘pick in a deep draft’ with ‘guaranteed NHL star’. That’s wrong.

    I will wait until training camp, have a gander at Mr. Reinhart in game situations in the NHL, and then decide whether it was a steep price.

    Arguing with certainty at this point that the trade was either a success or a failure is, to be frank, stuff and nonsense.

    So we started the day with Here Comes The Sun and ended with Stuck In The Middle With You. I only object to snap judgments and false categories and timeliines. Need to know a lot more.

  123. Bos8 says:

    Personally I’m pleased with the trade. GR is in the right slot for this team as per development and salary. I like Marincin, so in my mind the Oilers have their six D with Nurse on the farm to begin the season with Ference as backup. They could use more experience and there will be errors but the offence will carry them and the mistakes will decrease just in time for the playoff push next year.

    In keeping with the powder dry theme, no need for more furore. All that remains is the goaltender and let’s see what the new coaching staff brings. Once they’ve had a chance for hands on then rationally decide what requires upgrading. I would say this should be next year at this time.

  124. Kel Varnson says:

    I dont know if anyone asked this yet i haven’t read all comments, but what do you guys think OEL or Seth Jones would’ve cost? My guess is MUCH more than Reinhart. I dont think Reinhart will be quite as good as those two but i think he’ll earn his next contract, top 4 shutdown dman with 20-30 point potential ( i hope )

  125. spoiler says:

    LMHF#1: Some may have made that mistake but they should not have.

    Remember though, that the question isn’t how well Reinhart does, it is Reinhart vs. anything else that could have been done with those assets. That’s where this has huge potential to fall down, as LT rightly points out in his post.

    Ahhh. I see. So if ANY draft pick after 15 turns out better than Reinhart, we lost the trade?

    If that’s the case then we stand little chance of winning it. However it is also completely unfair.

  126. spoiler says:

    Lol… I am surprised to see that scene at the Rex tonight.

    I’ve always thought today would be a little anti-climactic… the big moment being when Daly smirked.

    The (sur)prize today was 16. Knew that if it got traded there would be people pissed we didn’t play wheel of fortune.

  127. LoDog says:

    PC (and his former staff) have seen plenty of griffin reinhart, this is all him.

  128. Numenius says:

    Here’s a concerning comment by the Islander blogger, Dan Petriw at BockeyHuzz, someone who presumably has seen Reinhart play in the AHL (unlike Bob Green !!):

    “I’ll have more reaction to the draft after it is all said and done but we all know how I feel about Griffin Reinhart. He was over matched in the AHL and the red flags were waiving. I’m not labeling him a bust but he has so much work to do and is at least one year away from being a regular NHL’er.”

    That’s not giving up on him exactly, but it’s not very encouraging either.

  129. TheOtherJohn says:

    blainer: Yea you are correct those players are ahead of GR today. That does not mean that GR will not pass them in the next year. Hamilton was just a good prospect two years ago and look at him this year. Try and look at the glass as half full and wait one year you may just be surprised. Better than having to wait up to five years on the other two picks.

    I would not be surprised at all if Reinhart has a breakout year. In reality it’s not like we are gonna get a choice anyway. I for one am glad to see us at least trying to get better…. Finally.. I will say though Chia looked a bit freaked out.. maybe it was the shrooms..lol…

    In draft +2 Hamilton played 42 games on a very good Boston team. In draft plus 3 he had played 100+ games for Boston. In draft +3 Reinhart has played 8 games due to NYI injuries. Not sure that Hamilton is remotely a comparable.

  130. TheOtherJohn says:

    spoiler: Thanks!

    And as the guy who had him lowest, I stand behind that scouting report lol.

    Seriously peeps…

    Do you actually think that if Reinhart was covering his draft slot he could be had for 16+33?

    He is not Jones Nurse Hamilton.

    He is more like Bogo and Myers… big guys who can actually play on their own end, make a pass and are blessed with a big shot.

    The ask looks right to me.

    And keep in mind he lost a big chunk of dev time to injury so is running slightly behind the curve.

    Do we really think Green can’t tell if a Dman can pivot in both directions? He is not Barker.

    Reinhart is not remotely close to Myers or Bogosian. Myers in his draft +2 and 3 scored 85 points in 2 full seasons. Bogosian played 1/2 season in draft plus 1 and played 200 games in his first 3 seasons with over 50 points in that time period

    Agree with you completely that if Reinhart was still seen as a 4OV we would not have gotten him for 16 & 33.

    Just don’t think 16 and 33 in an exceptional deep draft should be valued remotely close to a mid teens selection in the weak 2012 draft. Because today that is where Reinhart is at in his draft class.

  131. OilSafety says:

    G Money,

    Wooooooooootttttt?

  132. Bling says:

    This is a bad trade.

    If MacT made this trade, he would’ve been skewered for it, and rightly so.

    I think Chia missed on Hamilton and panicked.

    Not enough up arrows to suggest Reinhart will become a top 4 D. Nothing to suggest he can play next year.

    I like the idea in principle — trading for a big top 4 D is hard once they’re established — but IMO Reinhart isn’t the right target.

  133. thejonrmcleod says:

    Does anyone have an ESPN Insider account who would be able to give us a summary of what Pronman thinks of the trade?

  134. wheatnoil says:

    New post…

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