A REAL LIVE GRIFFIN

With each passing day, fans are choosing sides on Griffin Reinhart. The verbal on this young man is incredible now, I hope he’s not reading the internet because some people don’t believe he can skate at all. Some of us had a chance to see him up close and personal and that suggests a bias. Others seem to be flushing the player based on Edmonton’s drafting record or well established tendency to look close to home for solutions—that too is a bias. Both sides have dug in and there’s not much (imo) chance of changing opinions.

That’s cool, because time will answer all and training camp is just around the corner. However, when we have diatribes like this (“I read he can’t skate and that’s all I need, he sucks!”) it’s time to go back to the scouting reports and remind ourselves of the player at the time of the draft.

HE CAN’T SKATE! AT ALL!

  • Grant McCagg, tsn: Strengths: Very few 6-4 blueliners can skate and handle the puck like Reinhart, and those attributes alone will intrigue lots of scouts. Has a hard point shot that often finds its mark, good passing skills. Weaknesses: Does not always play with an abundance of passion and drive. Could be more assertive physically, and more consistent in his effort.
  • Craig Button: Griffin may be a diamond in the rough but he possesses the carats of a unique player. He has a an excellent understanding of the game with a composure and patience that may suggest a lack of urgency but don’t be confused, his competitive waters run deep and he’s capable of being aggressive and assertive when necessary. He is a very good skater with strong balance and agility and along with his size, he is extremely difficult to break down 1-1 and gain an advantage on. He uses his body effectively and doesn’t lose position and is capable of punishing opponents. His vision is very good, he sees the play unfolding, knows what his options are and is capable of doing this very quickly. He makes very good plays in all areas of the game and ones that gain advantages for his team. His offensive skills continue to evolve and he is increasingly confident creating offense. Griffin has an assuredness in his play and along with his skill and physical attributes, makes him a player who has a chance to be an impact player in the NHL.

HE NEVER DEVELOPED

 

  • Corey Pronman, Hockey Prospectus: What separates him from other big defensemen is that he has the puck skills to make people miss, execute all the little plays in tight quarters, and to deliver crisp, accurate passes consistently. Reinhart also has a more aggressive offensive element to his game as he will join the rush and doesn’t shy from being creative in the offensive end of the rink. He also has a pretty big shot from the point that he can put a lot of his big frame into. The thing that has seen Reinhart establish himself so well in the industry has been his improvements.

The Edmonton Oilers tracked Griffin Reinhart all through 2012. The young man played in the scouting staff’s back yard and in management’s office. The opportunity was there to impress, and he did.  It was an extreme advantage for Reinhart and the benefit for the organization might be this: Reinhart’s improvement from September to March was exceptional. In the end, it wasn’t enough. I think the Oilers would have drafted Ryan Murray if they’d gone blue and only a trade down on draft day would have ensured the Oil Kings top defender heading to the Oilers in 2012.

MY OWN OPINION

I’m not a scout and absolutely saw him good as an Oil Kings player—bias. However, if the Oilers had taken him No. 1 overall in 2012 I would have told you it was an overpay, and I told you draft night and next morning this year Peter Chiarelli gave up too much for the player. That said, I like him, always have. Reinhart’s speed wasn’t an issue in junior and beyond that I can’t tell you, no idea if he’ll be fast enough for the NHL that’s why they play the games. I can say with authority that Darnell Nurse is a more dynamic skater, more mobile, but that’s something you can say about damn near every big defenseman on the planet (not many have Nurse’s size/speed combination).

Reinhart played RH side a lot in junior, was on the power play there and in the AHL (where his numbers with the man advantage were impressive based on suggestions of playing time). I think he’ll play over half a season in the NHL next season and suggest we all watch those games and make the call at that time.

He had good enough speed in junior for at least two scouts to remark on how good it was at that time. For me, that kind of evidence trumps what my eyes tell me and what the internet suggests, but it’s also true that the Oilers have and do get stubborn on players and that costs them.

A recent example? Martin Marincin. Another example? Jeff Petry. Just as the Ottawa Senators are going to jam Jared Cowen into the NHL because they’re stubborn, so too the Oilers have cast away Martin Marincin and those silly Toronto Maple Leafs don’t know what they’re in for this coming season.

I wrote this morning that (imo) Nurse is the better bet for NHL action this winter and remain convinced for multiple reasons. Based on one scathing email received today, you’re not buying and think there’s some anti-Reinhart sentiment on this blog. I’d tell you that isn’t true, but it seems we’ve reached the point in the summer where there are demons and ill will everywhere and paranoia strikes deep.

If I’m reading the internet correctly these days, Griffin Reinhart is a slow boat who can barely tie his shoes—while also being an NHL-ready defenseman with size and mobility. It can’t be both, the scouts on draft day liked him plenty.

I think he’s a solid young defenseman with size, foot speed, the ability to pass and make a pass, protect the puck, win battles and play with an edge. I think he’s close to NHL ready. I also think Darnell Nurse is a better prospect now and into the future.

Will Nurse pass Reinhart and make Peter Chiarelli’s words ring hollow? I think the answer is yes. We wait.

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173 Responses to "A REAL LIVE GRIFFIN"

  1. Rondo says:

    Who made the bigger “mistake” Boston trading away Hamilton for #15 + #45 + #52 or Oilers trading away #16 and #33 for Reinhart. Time will tell.

  2. Edmonton_fan says:

    I heard rumors that teams get injuries. And when injuries occur, it is a good thing having talent playing big minutes & getting prime opportunities in the minors – so they can get called up, step in & contribute immediately.

    Not sure where I heard this from… 😉

  3. Lowetide says:

    Rondo:
    Who made the bigger “mistake”Boston trading away Hamilton for#15 + #45+ #52or Oilers trading away #16 and#33 for Reinhart.Time will tell.

    Not close. Bruins made a franchise altering gaffe, Oilers paid a bit too much for a useful player close to NHL-ready. Not on the same planet, as I’m sure you are saying. 🙂

  4. frjohnk says:

    Mark me down in the Pro Reinhart camp.

    He is gonna blow the doors off this fall.

    Book it.

  5. Rondo says:

    Lowetide,

    Easily Hamilton but Oilers could have come out with Barzal or Connor or Sv and Jeremy Roy if they got creative.

    I think Reinhart has to become a top pairing D for Oilers to win that trade.

  6. Kermodoil says:

    LT

    I am also in the pro Reinhart camp. He may not be as flashy as Nurse, but he will develop into a solid top 4 dman. He may have the smoothest stride, but his hockey sense is excellent, he can slow the game down, makes great first passes and has a great shot from the point.

  7. Lowetide says:

    Rondo:
    Lowetide,

    Easily Hamilton butOilers could have come out with Barzal or Connor or Svand Jeremy Roy if they got creative.

    I think Reinhart has to become a top pairing D for Oilers to win that trade.

    Great thought, I’d say top 4D (because No. 16 and No. 33 isn’t the range you’d typically get top pairing) but point made.

  8. Lowetide says:

    Kermodoil:
    LT

    I am also in the pro Reinhart camp. He may not be as flashy as Nurse, but he will develop into a solid top 4 dman.

    Agree completely. I think Nurse, Klefbom and Reinhart are going to be the D cluster for a long time in Edmonton.

  9. sliderule says:

    I watched Reinhart play a lot in junior and he was the oil king shutdown defenceman.Played all the tough minutes and never seemed to get beat one on one.

    He used his gap control to push the rush to the corners and had a heavy stick in front of net.

    His skating which is ok for a big guy won’t be a problem as he is so smart defensively.

  10. Frank the dog says:

    Poor coaching can do terrible things to young, developing players, we should know that quite well.
    Todd Nelson revived the careers of a few of our players, I’m sure tMac will do the same for Rheinhart and others.
    I’m wondering if Chia is thinking of putting Ference behind the bench rather than on it?

  11. Lowetide says:

    sliderule:
    I watched Reinhart play a lot in junior and he was the oil king shutdown defenceman.Played all the tough minutes and never seemed to get beat one on one.

    He used his gap control to push the rush to the corners and had a heavy stick in front of net.

    His skating which is ok for a big guywon’t be a problem as he is so smart defensively.

    The thing I’ll remember is that he was on the ice all the damn time. An absolute horse.

  12. Frank the dog says:

    Kermodoil:
    LT

    I am also in the pro Reinhart camp. He may not be as flashy as Nurse, but he will develop into a solid top 4 dman. He may have the smoothest stride, but his hockey sense is excellent, he can slow the game down, makes great first passes and has a great shot from the point.

    I knew a basketball player, a large student that the coach benched because he was too slow, until they ran a speed drill and he was the fastest up and down the court while making it look easy.
    Apparent lack of speed is a common prejudice against big players by those without stopwatches or watching them play alongside others.
    Wasn’t Draisatl also considered slow at one time?

  13. frjohnk says:

    Did we overpay to get Reinhart?

    Maybe.

    But this is a guy that is still in his ELC and will grow with the McDavid cluster.

    I don’t question that he eventually becomes a top 4 d man. It’s just a matter of when and does he become a top pairing d man.

  14. Pajamah says:

    I love this blog, and the great thing is Lowetide always fair and will engage in discussion in all the differing opinions.

    The commenting here seriously blows HFBOARDS, OilersNation, and most other blogs out of the water in its intelligence, due diligence, and opinion as well.

    With all that, and the uncertainty about Griffin Reinhart’s ceiling/talent level, I cannot say I am of two-minds.

    Scouts and paid, professional hockey men love the kid, and still see him as a 2-4D.

    Ham and Eggers, casual fans, and people with far less knowledge are critical because he isn’t Doughty and killing the competition at 19. He didn’t make the top 6 in NY with a really good D core in his draft+2 so he must not be an NHL defenseman.

    I think a top 4 of Sekera, Nurse, Reinhart, and Klefbom is pretty good. In 2-3 years you likely have a true #1D in Nurse, and 3 #3D or better in the rest of the group.

  15. Woogie63 says:

    Pro Reinhart … his year learning in the AHL is going to make all the difference in 2015-16… like it did for Petry, Klefbom and Marincin

    Reinhart making the team coming out of TC will allow us to send Nurse to the AHL to continue with his learning to be an NHL SuperStar

  16. LMHF#1 says:

    You really get “scathing emails” in response to things like your Darnell vs. Griffin analysis LT? Wow…that’s a bit much.

  17. admiralmark says:

    Lowetide: Great thought, I’d say top 4D (because No. 16 and No. 33 isn’t the range you’d typically get top pairing) but point made.

    I agree if its a 2nd Pair D he rounds into I would call it a success. More importantly if he gets there by the end of this season. Consideration must be made for the fact they needed to start making drastic improvements to the D ASAP. This was an overpay to get there sooner imo.

  18. Lowetide says:

    LMHF#1:
    You really get “scathing emails” in response to things like your Darnell vs. Griffin analysis LT? Wow…that’s a bit much.

    One day, I’ll publish some of the stuff that comes in. It’s pretty amazing, very passionate fan group. Mostly I think it comes from things like the current situation, where there’s no right answer, only opinion. I mean the truth is that the thing we always worried over—the defense was too young for the cluster—has been aided in a big way by the trade. THREE very good prospects entering the league at about the same time. Impressive.

  19. D says:

    I sat in the Rose Garden in Portland and saw first hand Reinhart put the number on the Winterhawks. Admittedly “saw him good”, but he could be a great asset for the Oilers. I hope he proves all his detractors wrong. As for the Islanders giving up on him, that is an organization that has walked away from its fair share of good players. Zdeno something comes to mind.

  20. hags9k says:

    When we made the trade I thought, ouch steep price. But I also thought, this could be our Seabrook. I think he will end up being our #2 D for many years.

    If he is truly at home on RD side, GIDDY-UP party people in the house let me hear ya say hey-OOOO.

    GOILERS!!

  21. fifthcartel says:

    I’ve come around on the trade a lot since draft day. It’s still an overpay, but he put up very respectable numbers in his first pro season and it’s been suggested he may not have had very much power play time with Pulock and others there.

    I think his shot is also really interesting. He might be able to fit in on an NHL power play.

    I agree Nurse will probably be the better player but I don’t think they’ve traded for Jared Cowen or Luke Schenn here.

  22. Woodguy says:

    Lowetide: Great thought, I’d say top 4D (because No. 16 and No. 33 isn’t the range you’d typically get top pairing) but point made.

    Top pairing can come from all over.

    Roy at 31 and Meloche at 40 have a reasonable chance.

    Roy had the highest IPP in the draft among CHL Dmen and I think Meloche was 3rd or 4th.

  23. hunter1909 says:

    Only knowing from the internet, Reinhart seems like the cure for the chaos defence.

    He’s got a German’s clear headedness.

    Sounds like Germany playing defence at soccer. They’re so good they don’t even have to dive and cheat like everyone else.

  24. hunter1909 says:

    Okay so the English don’t dive and cheat either.

    : p

  25. Lowetide says:

    Woodguy: Top pairing can come from all over.

    Roy at 31 and Meloche at 40 have a reasonable chance.

    Roy had the highest IPP in the draft among CHL Dmen and I think Meloche was 3rd or 4th.

    Sure, but we’re talking value. If we look at the Scott Cullen graph, No. 16 and No. 33 don’t give you a fabulous chance at a top pairing defenseman.

  26. Undisclosed_Personal_Reasons says:

    What is the evidence to support statements of Nurse>Renihart or Reinhart>Nurse?

    I suspect (perhaps mistakenly) there isn’t much in the way of numbers to support a claim one way or the other, which, if true, runs counter to how players are typically evaluated in these parts.

  27. Wild Bill Hunter says:

    I agree with your overall summation regarding Reinhart Lowetide. I do want to expand on what Frank The Dog said. Bigger athletes because of the length of strides, will cover more ground while appearing to exert less effort than smaller guys whose legs are churning away more rapidly. Call it the Mahovolich syndrome if you wish. Furthermore, a smart player is not skating flat out all the time. A defenceman who is in good position defensively won’t show you top end speed very often, he will be called on to demonstrate lateral mobility (more quickness than speed). In truth it is hard to judge speed with a player like Reinhart unless you are very close to the play. If you really want to know, ask guys who have played against him…they really saw him good.

    I am of the mind that the Oilers overpaid for a 2nd pairing guy. That doesn’t mean he is not a very good prospect, he will be a contributor for sure.

  28. John Chambers says:

    Pajamah:
    I love this blog, and the great thing is Lowetide always fair and will engage in discussion in all the differing opinions.

    The commenting here seriously blows HFBOARDS, OilersNation, and most other blogs out of the water in its intelligence, due diligence, and opinion as well.

    With all that, and the uncertainty about Griffin Reinhart’s ceiling/talent level, I cannot say I am of two-minds.

    Scouts and paid, professional hockey men love the kid, and still see him as a 2-4D.

    Ham and Eggers, casual fans, and people with far less knowledge are critical because he isn’t Doughty and killing the competition at 19. He didn’t make the top 6 in NY with a really good D core in his draft+2 so he must not be an NHL defenseman.

    I think a top 4 of Sekera, Nurse, Reinhart, and Klefbom is pretty good. In 2-3 years you likely have a true #1D in Nurse, and 3 #3D or better in the rest of the group.

    The craziest comments on draft day came from the people who we’re livid that we DIDN’T draft Barzal. Now I realize that young man will probably have a career as a top-6 NHL player, but we already have at least 8 guys ahead of him in the batting order for that role. For fucks sake he probably becomes the next Mike Cammalleri.

    I think some fans go into a rapture over draft picks, ignoring the desperate needs of the organization in the here and now.

    I’ve legitimately enjoyed the pre-draft hype, especially at Lowetide.ca, all the way back to 2010, and the possibility of a bright future for the Oilers that our prospects from Hall onward have offered.

    But we as a fanbase need to let go of our near obsession over draft picks. I bet you we don’t pick in the first round in 2016 – Chiarelli has correctly identified that it’s time to move on and actually win hockey games, and the nutters who dislike the trade apparently subscribe to the flawed notion that the sum individual talents are greater than a whole and balanced lineup.

  29. Sevenseven says:

    I think lowetide and PC are both right. I think GR is nhl ready and that Nurse will be the more impactful defenceman. However, I do not think Nurse will be dominate right away, and would be better served playing lots of games and big minutes in the AHL. For that reason, I would have GR ahead of Nurse on the call up list or roster. Even if Nurse blows the doors off in preseason. Id say the same for Leon. I think an AHL team with Leon and Nurse is a championship team. Would a dominating championship run from those two in the AHL not be the best development of those players?

  30. Wild Bill Hunter says:

    Undisclosed_Personal_Reasons:
    What is the evidence to support statements of Nurse>Renihart or Reinhart>Nurse?

    I suspect (perhaps mistakenly) there isn’t much in the way of numbers to support a claim one way or the other, which, if true,runs counter to how players are typically evaluated in these parts.

    I would point to the fact that Reinhart’s point production declined from around .62 per game in his draft year to less than .5 during his last year of junior while Nurse’s point production increased from around .61 to .92 last year. Nurse has shown more indication of improvement offensively.

  31. rich says:

    Absolutely terrific perspective LT. Amazing to me that in the context of the acquisition, this may have been (note: MAY have been) a slight overpay. But we acquired a d-man who can play a certain role when the CMD cluster is ready to compete.

    I admit to being in the pro GR camp for this reason. He’ll grow with the cluster and that I believe is going to be even more important over the next couple of years because he’ll also have the potential to be a value contract when needed – which must be considered when building – and maintaining a championship. You have to think several moves ahead (like playing chess) – something Chia has learned from experience.

  32. Woodguy says:

    Lowetide: Sure, but we’re talking value. If we look at the Scott Cullen graph, No. 16 and No. 33 don’t give you a fabulous chance at a top pairing defenseman.

    Screw you!!

    I’m sending an email!!!

  33. blainer says:

    Lowetide: Sure, but we’re talking value. If we look at the Scott Cullen graph, No. 16 and No. 33 don’t give you a fabulous chance at a top pairing defenseman.

    LT.. If I told you that GR turned into a top four D who takes on the toughs and could put up between 15 to 25 pts per year playing on the PK with lots of time at evens would that be Dougie Hamilton ? No… But I can tell you who it is though.. Niklas Hjalmarsson. How many people here would like him on our team for the next ten years… I really think that is what the oilers are thinking he is as well.. We will know soon enough..

  34. hunter1909 says:

    Reinhart apparently is a defenceman who never panics. On the current Oilers defence, that’s unheard of. For this reason alone he’s the perfect addition to the young core.

    Chiarelli’s not Tambo, or MacT, or Lowe even. He’s a competent Stanley Cup building GM. So what if Reinhart, who’s nearly NHL ready takes an extra draft pick? Where else is Chiarelli supposed to get players for the upcoming(and very important) season? From a Top Hat?

  35. flyfish1168 says:

    I only saw GR in TV during the Memorial Cup. He looked good and poised. I’m in the camp that scouts can get it wrong at times. Not saying they did on GR.

    I saw Cam Barker play many times since I’m from the Hat. I was a bit surprised by the comparisons to Jay Bouwmeester.

    Scouting report
    http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/6724/cam_barker_climbs_the_charts/

  36. Sevenseven says:

    And maybe im just reaching here, but GR seems like he could be the type of defenceman that does much better than the NHLpe suggest he will. If he ends up playing 28 minutes a night for the oilers, and they are icing the top 6 forwards it looks like they could be, he may be a 35-40 point defenceman. Especially if the top pair is Nurse on the left and GR on the right.

  37. TheOtherJohn says:

    Lowetide would the Cullen graph be skewed to a higher probability of success at 16 and 33 in a deeper draft? Or could Mr Cullen explain WTF happened In the 2003 draft

    Oh and if Reinhart is as good as Niklas Hjalmarsson that will be great. No evidence of that yet …… But what a target

  38. Lewis Grant says:

    I couldn’t care less what the scouting reports said on draft day. The draft day scouting reports were great on Cam Barker and weak on Henrik Zetterberg. What do the scouting reports say NOW on Griffin Reinhart? That’s what matters.

    HFBoards has him at #14 overall, unchanged from their previous report. He’s still the #3 defensive prospect overall, after Nurse and Derrick Pouliot and ahead of Damon Severson. Is that good or bad? (That’s a serious question. I don’t read HFBoards enough to know, but someone here probably does. I’d be curious to see a list of previous #14s.)

    What really troubles me is that the Oiler brass doesn’t seem to have watched him since junior. His development from 18-21 is WAY more important than his development from 17-18. At 18 you know very little about a player, which is why Zetterberg could turn out better than Barker. At 21 you have a much better idea of what you’ve got.

  39. Магия 10 says:

    “Will Nurse pass Reinhart”

    YES

    “and make Peter Chiarelli’s words ring hollow?”

    NO

    (Chia is right about this year)

    Pro GSR. Hope Nurse passes GSR eventually because Nurse has more skill and that’s a helluva player if he can read the game like that.

  40. sliderule says:

    Lewis Grant,

    The oiler brass were watching him a bunch one year ago.

    Green hadn’t seen him in Ahl but chia had and was impressed.

    He scored at a higher rate than you would expect from his junior scoring..It was at about the same rate Keith and Suter did at same age.This was while getting second PP time.

    He has a much better chance of being a top four D than any of magic beans the oil gave up.

  41. Doug McLachlan says:

    frjohnk:
    Did we overpay to get Reinhart?

    Maybe.

    But this is a guy that is still in his ELC and will grow with the McDavid cluster.

    I don’t question that he eventually becomes a top 4 d man. It’s just a matter of when and does he become a top pairing d man.

    Exactly. #16 could get us a D (we were never going to draft Barzal, though maybe Svechnikov (sp?)) but the D we drafted would be ready to contribute meaningful minutes during McDavid’s RFA years but not earlier. Hanafin, sure, but any D available at #16 is a sunk cost for the post-ELC McDavid era.

    Reinhart has grown into his body and spent a year playing against men in the AHL. This wasn’t an overpay at all. They paid two birds in hand (that, even if they both turn into players – not a guarantee) will not begin to produce for a couple of years. This was a great deal.

  42. speeds says:

    I guess I have a pretty similar take to LT:

    I like Reinhart as a prospect. I also think the price to get him was high, not necessarily in a vacuum but given the prior 15 picks – If BOS takes Barzal, Conner, and Svechnikov I probably like the trade more even though, based on what I’ve read, that probably means NYI doesn’t like the value enough to make the deal.

  43. oliveoilers says:

    hunter1909:
    Okay so the English don’t dive and cheat either.

    : p

    But if we did, we’d do it honestly!

  44. G Money says:

    Ignoring the noise on Reinhart (and there is a tremendous amount of it), as far as I can tell, there is no reason to believe that Reinhart won’t be a capable NHL defenseman, middle pairing as a nominal target and top pairing at a stretch.

    I ran a bunch of comparables for him, as did FrJohnK, J Willis, and a few others, and I’d say that optimistically we’re looking at someone between a Colton Teubert at the unlikely low end, sturdy physical all-tools mid pairing guys like Dennis Seidenberg or Braydon Coburn at the likely middle, and Jay Bouwmeester at the unlikely top end.

  45. Магия 10 says:

    Lewis Grant: What really troubles me is that the Oiler brass doesn’t seem to have watched him since junior

    Chia saw him twice last year. There is a lot of info out there on his development last year. Willis upgraded his initial take when he reviewed some of his NHL video. PC had 2 months to have a lot of AHL video reviewed as well.

  46. Optimism is Foolish says:

    I quite frankly am happy as hell with the Reinhart trade. It sets us up with 3 young top quality for the next decade. This year is the year when we get the bad contracts off the books and teach the systems. If next year we see a defense group that looks like
    Klef – Sekera
    Nurse – Reinhart
    as the top 4 we will be in better shape than anytime since 2006 for defense.

  47. Магия 10 says:

    “it seems we’ve reached the point in the summer where there are demons and ill will everywhere and paranoia strikes deep.”

    Crib burning time.

  48. Bag of Pucks says:

    I hope Griffin is reading the interwebs. Pro athletes thrive on the motivation of proving their doubters wrong.

    Schultz should be the one worrying about Reinhart taking his job, not Nurse.

  49. UnjustEnrichment says:

    I’m in the pro-Reinhart camp. I don’t think they paid too much for him. I think he also has as good a chance or better of playing in the NHL this season than Nurse has. I think Nurse would benefit from at least half a season in Bakersfield. Nurse is flashy and talented as hell but a bit chaotic; he needs to learn some NHL-level structure in Bakersfield. Reinhart is less flashy but more structured in the way he plays, and he has already had nearly a full season in the AHL to become NHL ready. That year in the AHL means a lot, I think. I wouldn’t be surprised if Reinhart makes the team out of camp and Nurse is sent down.

  50. Zelepukin says:

    I for one welcome the uneducated, armchair head scout of trolling storyline that seems to be at the centre of GR this summer. Low expectations is not a permanent resident of the Oilers offseason conversation.

  51. RexLibris says:

    Woodguy: Screw you!!

    I’m sending an email!!!

    Ha, just had an image of “grandpa” sitting down at the kitchen table with pen and paper “dammit, I’ll write those jerks at CTV a letter and give them a piece of my mind! Matlock belongs on Wednesday nights, not Mondays!”

  52. Bling says:

    I think as a fanbase we get a bit too excited about throwing guys into baskets — Player A is/will be top 6, Player B is/will be a top pairing D, Player C has no chance, etc.

    It’s not always so simple.

    Keith and Seabrook are the cornerstones of Chicago’s D, but that defence corps and the way in which they are utilized doesn’t work at all without Hjalmarsson playing brutally tough competition and putting up a big blue bubble on the Vollman Sledgehammer.

    I think GR can be that type of guy.

    Unheralded, but indispensable.

  53. One-Timer says:

    Pro-Griff, full stop.

    He’ll be an Oiler stalwart before long, and everyone’s favourite non-flashy player on the team.

    Okay, full stop now.

  54. RexLibris says:

    Okay, so I had mentioned Reinhart as part of a trade package for Seabrook the other day, to which LT responded with a monosyllabic negative. (What’s up with that, LT? Are you paying by the letter now?)

    But, this article and my own viewings of Reinhart have got me thinking: With he, Klefbom and Nurse all graduating to the NHL over a span of roughly three years, approximately, maybe less, Reinhart could carve out a very effective niche for himself as a shutdown blueliner to pair with Nurse’s rushes.

    Now, I’m not saying it’ll be Coffey/Huddy all over again, but the balance of rushing D and an “it’s okay, go on I’ll turn off the stove and get the lights” kind of partner can be very effective for a long time.

    I’m excited about the potential with all three of these young men coming into the lineup as a cluster. Klefbom is more or less here while Nurse and Reinhart seem like very good bets to have productive NHL careers with little bust-potential.

  55. OilCountry101 says:

    I like Griffin Reinhart, i personally think he isnt the greatest skater. But with that said he is only 21 and has plenty of room to improve that. Griffin Reinhart has played more of the stay at home defensemen style of play something the Oilers having been missing since Jason Smith. He also a killer at boxing out opposing teams in the crease, Something the Oilers D have had little success at doing in recent years. I personally think he has more positives then negatives in his game with plenty of room to improve. The future looks bright for the Oilers, Go Oil Go!.

  56. Bling says:

    One thing I’m not crazy about is heaping expectations on some of these kids.

    Why does PC have to say GR can contribute this season?

    Hjalmarsson wasn’t in the Hawks lineup until halfway through his age 22 season.

    If GR follows his career path to a T, would anyone be disappointed?

  57. GCW_69 says:

    John Chambers: Now I realize that young man will probably have a career as a top-6 NHL player, but we already have at least 8 guys ahead of him in the batting order for that role.

    The Oilers also have salary cap to manage. At some point the cap is going to force the exit of the Hall – Nuge – Eberle cluster and the Oilers are going to need younger cheaper guys replace them. Drafting Barzal and letting him develop in junior and the AHL so he is ready to replace one of those guys is a good thing. The forward cupboard at the prospect level is pretty thin. And it’s unlikely the Oilers will get another shot at a top ten ranked forward for a long while, or at least we hope that is the case.

    The Oilers have so many high draft picks on the 50 man list that long term cap planning is a must.

  58. leadfarmer says:

    How can people be that irate over Reinhart. Chia went for the better choice first, Hamilton, then he waited to see if any of the d he wanted would fall into his lap. I’m guessing it was Werenski as no way Hanifin or Provorov were going to fall that far, and then he got the best D prospect he could get. Sure it would have been nice to get Jones or Larson but the cost for that would have been Draisatl at least. While I personally would have drafted Barzal or Connor that wouldn’t have helped our defense. It takes a certain kind of person to be so negative about a young man that is following his dream. I cheer for every team’s prospects including the Flames. Once they make it to the show its another story, but while they are trying to scrape together a living for themselves and their families, some of these guys come from very poor families and hockey equipment is not cheap, is another thing. In other words cmon Reinhart, make these clowns eat their words.

  59. Racki says:

    Watched a lot of Reinhart as an Oil King (live), starting in the 11/12 season. I wish the fly-by, 1-series-watching Reinhart critics would just keep quiet, as I don’t really think they have a clue what kind of player he is. Never saw his skating as an issue in junior. Of course, that was just junior though (hard to get a good gauge unless a player is dominant or very weak). I also saw him as very assertive, physically, even if it is something he could have done more frequently. I even saw him in a couple of nice scraps. When the occasion called for it (playoffs, for example) he rose to the occasion quite well. He’s not much of a lug-it-up-the-ice guy, from what I recall, but can pass it up ice quite well, and has a good shot too. Pretty good mix of skills with him, and I look forward to seeing him as an Oiler this year. I know “saw him good” is always a worry, but I’ve seen quite a bit of him now and he and Lazar were my two fave Oil Kings since I started watching them closer.

    The price was pretty high on Reinhart though, perhaps too high, hard to say. If he lives up to his potential though, I won’t give a damn about using the two picks to acquire him. Our drafting here is absolutely brutal. I was glad to see Chia send a bunch of picks away this year. He needs to overhaul the scouting department, but until then, why leave it into the hands of guys who have failed to get it done?

  60. Hammers says:

    When you see a player as good to very good ,then look at his lineage with his dad being a top D I give him a great chance to at least be a 3-4 D . Maybe part of the problem with all young players starts with scouts evaluations and they sometimes are all over the ship . If his 75% of his old man he will be fine and a steady player for this team . There is one thing his dad didn’t have and that is his size , frame . Once we see him playing actual games I think Oiler fans will be satisfied . As to what we traded it doesn’t matter as we won’t know that answer for 4-5 years . Right now his Oiler property and developed right he can be a player .

  61. RexLibris says:

    Found this today: http://imgur.com/gallery/rjE84

    A series of NFL referee memes that would be highly entertaining (and useful) for anyone familiar with some of our more…obstinate and persistent debaters here on the site.

    GMoney, WG, LT, Frjohnk, NYCOil (formerly or presently), Speeds, Spoiler, Ryan, and any others who have lost an evening in argument with Voldemort may enjoy this.

    Note – Found myself red-faced and coughing I was laughing so hard on these.

  62. Richard S.S. says:

    I have an issue with people moaning, groaning and carried on shamefully about what they didn’t get. Then they take great pleasure in trashing what they did get. That happens everywhere and in everything and it’s disgraceful.

    If you were never told who got who for what, you’d complain much less if you were told Edmonton traded pickS #16, #33, #57, #79, #86, #107, #184, Martin Marincin and Travis Ewanyk and got back a top NHL-ready top 4D, a #1 Goalie, a real NHL bottom 4D, a top NHL Manager and his top two Assistants. That was a great bargain.

    Complaining about what you didn’t get is wishful thinking and it’s more like real life than it should be. Be happy you got real value back, for too many years you didn’t.

  63. One-Timer says:

    Reinhart has grown into his body and spent a year playing against men in the AHL. This wasn’t an overpay at all. They paid two birds in hand (that, even if they both turn into players – not a guarantee) will not begin to produce for a couple of years. This was a great deal.

    Do you mean we gave up two birds in the bush for one in the hand? Agreed.
    I like to view the trade as a #16 for the player (pretty sure that’s good value), and a #33 for his development time in the NYI system. I don’t think there’s much to complain about, especially considering the CMD clock. Good job, Chia. More of the same, please.

  64. pts2pndr says:

    I am of the belief that the acquisition of GR was a a very astute hockey move. It may prove to be a better move than Hamilton over the long run. GR has shown proven leadership skills on a championship team which is important. Even if this doesn’t work out as planed it is the kind of deals that have to be made to restore team balance without filling one hole while making another!

  65. Woodguy says:

    RexLibris,

    Those are really awesome.

  66. LadiesloveSmid says:

    hags9k:
    When we made the trade I thought, ouch steep price.But I also thought, this could be our Seabrook.I think he will end up being our #2 D for many years.

    If he is truly at home on RD side,GIDDY-UP party people in the house let me hear ya say hey-OOOO.

    GOILERS!!

    if he were a right shot, we might be talking about how perfect a fit he is with Nurse down the road

    speedy rover and positionally sound stay-at-home

    I’m excited about how the defence transpires

  67. Woodguy says:

    RexLibris: Ha, just had an image of “grandpa” sitting down at the kitchen table with pen and paper “dammit, I’ll write those jerks at CTV a letter and give them a piece of my mind! Matlock belongs on Wednesday nights, not Mondays!”

    I post marking the envelope “To Those Bastards at CFRN” right now!

  68. speeds says:

    One thing I will say about Reinhart is, even if you think the price was pretty high, he has 6 RFA years remaining and doesn’t, to this point, seem like the kind of D that, if he pans out as hoped, will be exorbitantly expensive. That has potential value over and above his on ice value.

  69. One-Timer says:

    RexLibris:
    Found this today: http://imgur.com/gallery/rjE84

    A series of NFL referee memes that would be highly entertaining (and useful) for anyone familiar with some of our more…obstinate and persistent debaters here on the site.

    GMoney, WG, LT, Frjohnk, NYCOil (formerly or presently), Speeds, Spoiler, Ryan, and any others who have lost an evening in argument with Voldemort may enjoy this.

    Note – Found myself red-faced and coughing I was laughing so hard on these.

    Perhaps LT could keep those in a sidebar for handy reference on DSF fight nites.

    Would make us all better logicians.

  70. wheatnoil says:

    RexLibris:
    Found this today: http://imgur.com/gallery/rjE84

    A series of NFL referee memes that would be highly entertaining (and useful) for anyone familiar with some of our more…obstinate and persistent debaters here on the site.

    GMoney, WG, LT, Frjohnk, NYCOil (formerly or presently), Speeds, Spoiler, Ryan, and any others who have lost an evening in argument with Voldemort may enjoy this.

    Note – Found myself red-faced and coughing I was laughing so hard on these.

    Bookmarked!

    Hilarious.

  71. Dashingsilverfox says:

    Woodguy: I post marking the envelope “To Those Bastards at CFRN” right now!

    I was one of those guys.

    Doesn’t make Reinhart any better than a #4D.

    Mat Barzal will make the angels cry.

  72. Dashingsilverfox says:

    pts2pndr:
    I am of the belief that the acquisition of GRwas a a very astute hockey move. It may prove to bea better move than Hamilton over the long run. GR has shown proven leadership skills on a championship team which is important.Even if this doesn’t work out as planed it is the kind of deals that have tobe made to restore team balance withoutfilling one hole while making another!

    Eye glow/60?

    Hamilton is already a MUCH better D.

    These things don’t often reverse themselves.

  73. Richard S.S. says:

    Oscar Klefbom’s and Griffen Reinhart’s ELCs end two years/seasons from now while McDavid’s and Nurse’s ELCs end three years from now when McDavid gets expensive.

    Griffin Reinhart was more expensive than Nurse, so I’d rather find out as soon as possible what we have or could have. How good is he or how good will he be? Defenseman who can play well right-side on a Defensive Pairing are hard to find. I don’t think either he or Nurse could make the Team without another Defender being move out – traded or bought out, there’s not enough free Cap Space otherwise. Nurse for as good as he is, is still a boy amongst men in the AHL. He needs to once again become a man amongst boys. When that happens, he’s here to stay and very wellcome.

  74. stush18 says:

    The reason Everyone else got so upset was because we all wanted Hamilton.

    When we found out Hamilton went for such a low price, we pissed our pants.

    Then we traded away the picks with many of our personal favs on the board still, and bemoaned the idiot that was running this team, and grew a immediate hatred reinhart.

    Those of us that payed attention right off the start realized we got a slower, but calmer and possibly smarter nurse. Who plays right side, and has spent half of his learning curve with another team already.

    And he fits the mcdavid cluster.

  75. Lowetide says:

    RexLibris:
    Found this today: http://imgur.com/gallery/rjE84

    A series of NFL referee memes that would be highly entertaining (and useful) for anyone familiar with some of our more…obstinate and persistent debaters here on the site.

    GMoney, WG, LT, Frjohnk, NYCOil (formerly or presently), Speeds, Spoiler, Ryan, and any others who have lost an evening in argument with Voldemort may enjoy this.

    Note – Found myself red-faced and coughing I was laughing so hard on these.

    Oh man, that’s gold. Too many Hitler’s on the field is fantastic!

  76. One-Timer says:

    Dashingsilverfox:

    Doesn’t make Reinhart any better than a #4D.

    Mat Barzal will make the angels cry.

    PLAYER IS BEGGING THE QUESTION!

  77. Glovjuice says:

    Lowetide,

    16 and 33 for a 10 year 3/4 D is absolutely a bargain – think about it – look at the average # NHL games played for 16 and 33 overall picks.

  78. oliveoilers says:

    There’s akquote cite=”comment-434248″>

    Dashingsilverfox: Eye glow/60?

    Hamilton is already a MUCH better D.

    These things don’t often reverse themselves.

    Theres a yellow flag on the play!

    Umpire Rex, what’s the call?

  79. Lowetide says:

    Woodguy: I post marking the envelope “To Those Bastards at CFRN” right now!

    uh, that will cause confusion. I’d aim to narrow it down to a specific floor.

  80. Dashingsilverfox says:

    oliveoilers:
    There’s akquote cite=”comment-434248″>

    Dashingsilverfox: Eye glow/60?

    Hamilton is already a MUCH better D.

    These things don’t often reverse themselves.

    Theres a yellow flag on the play!

    Umpire Rex, what’s the call?

    Hamilton is 6 months older than Reinhart and has 178 NHL games to his credit.

    Reinhart has 8 NHL games to his credit.

    This won’t end well.

  81. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Dashingsilverfox: I was one of those guys.

    Doesn’t make Reinhart any better than a #4D.

    Mat Barzal will make the angels cry.

    Reinhart’s a #4D, Barzal is Kane. Draisaitl is Colbourne. We get it. Your spiel is the same every day

  82. Dashingsilverfox says:

    Lowetide,

    Send it to the basement!

  83. One-Timer says:

    And…

    Dashingsilverfox:

    Connor McDavid will make the angels cry.

    Fixed!

  84. Glovjuice says:

    John Chambers,

    Precisely – could not have said it better myself #draftfetishists

  85. Dashingsilverfox says:

    LadiesloveSmid: Reinhart’s a #4D, Barzal is Kane. Draisaitl is Colbourne. We get it. Your spiel is the same every day

    And right all the time.

  86. Lowetide says:

    Dashingsilverfox:
    Lowetide,

    Send it to the basement!

    Sadly, there’s nothing in the basement anymore really. That used to be where i worked!

  87. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Dashingsilverfox: And right all the time.

    You’re always right, we’re always wrong. The oilers are always wrong. Let out the narcissist.

  88. elgruntus says:

    Griff wore the “C” on the last team that brought pride and glory to this pride and glory starved city! That’s enough for me to have his back. There’s no way I’m going to “Horcoff”* him before he even laces up and shows us what he is.

    * to Horcoff – The tendency for fans to turn on a player for reasons other than their on ice performance.

  89. TheOtherJohn says:

    G Money,

    Not sure how anyone gets Bouwmeester as the high end comparable.other than he’s another high draft pick. Bouwmeester played 2 full seasons at draft+1 and draft +2 in the NHL and in his draft +3 he played in the AHL because of the strike. At this point in time Reinhart has played 8 games in the NHL.

  90. stush18 says:

    Everyone getting there pants in a knot, DSF is right.

    Only this time, about this very specific thing.

    Hamilton is, and will be a very good dman, likely better than reinhart.

    Bringing up past arguments doesn’t help at all, admit he may be right about something, and move on.

    Edit* didn’t see the comment about 4d. I think that’s pushing it, but his offense may hold him back from top 3. Nothing wrong with that, as he will be our hjarllmson(?)

  91. frjohnk says:

    RexLibris:
    Found this today: http://imgur.com/gallery/rjE84

    A series of NFL referee memes that would be highly entertaining (and useful) for anyone familiar with some of our more…obstinate and persistent debaters here on the site.

    GMoney, WG, LT, Frjohnk, NYCOil (formerly or presently), Speeds, Spoiler, Ryan, and any others who have lost an evening in argument with Voldemort may enjoy this.

    Note – Found myself red-faced and coughing I was laughing so hard on these.

    Absolute mint.

    Great find.

  92. Dashingsilverfox says:

    Lowetide: Sadly, there’s nothing in the basement anymore really. That used to be where i worked!

    I know.

    You and John Short, Chuck Chandler, Billy Williams and I spent far too long in the bowels.

  93. Lewis Grant says:

    Hjalmarsson wasn’t in the Hawks lineup until halfway through his age 22 season.
    If GR follows his career path to a T, would anyone be disappointed?

    No, not in the least. I’d be thrilled.

    The D corps has the makings of a Canucks circa 2010 defense within 3 years or so – no true #1, but 5 guys that could be #2-#3. That’s just fine with me.

    My worry is that these guys won’t hit their potential without being sheltered/mentored by an experienced guy. I would have loved for us to have signed Zbynek Michalek at the price/term Arizona paid. Trading for Chara would be even better from a mentorship/sheltering perspective, although that one is a much bigger cap risk. But I’d like for Chiarelli to be hard after someone like Oduya on a 2-year contract. I don’t know if he’d sign one that short, but I think someone like that for two years is crucial to getting us to the Canucks circa 2010 defense.

  94. Dashingsilverfox says:

    LadiesloveSmid: You’re always right, we’re always wrong. The oilers are always wrong. Let out the narcissist.

    Their record pretty much speaks for itself.

    In the 2015 draft, was Reinhart the BPA, (never mind the other pick)?

    I don’t think so.

  95. Lowetide says:

    Dashingsilverfox: I know.

    You and John Short, Chuck Chandler, Billy Williams and I spent far too long in the bowels.

    I laughed a lot, though. That’s the truth.

  96. puckwatcher says:

    Lowetide,

    I would say the handful of players to oilers could’ve picked with that pick have to be playing higher up in their teams lineup in 2 years time to say Edmonton lost the trade. If reinhart doesn’t make it, but none of the guys who were realistic targets for Edmonton at that pick don’t make it what difference does it make.

    Lowetide: Great thought, I’d say top 4D (because No. 16 and No. 33 isn’t the range you’d typically get top pairing) but point made.

  97. Магия 10 says:

    Richard S.S.: Griffin Reinhart was more expensive than Nurse,

    We paid more for Nurse than the 16 and 33 we paid for GR.

    One-Timer: I like to view the trade as a #16 for the player (pretty sure that’s good value), and a #33 for his development time in the NYI system.

    Yes the 33 was for the player being 3 years closer. Islanders drafted him too high, but a close look says he’s on track compared to expectations for the D left at 16 this year. And of course BPA is for the draft age kids.

  98. dangilitis says:

    1st of all, reinhart was touched by dougie so that settles things, he’s going to be a player.

    Jokes aside, recent cult of hockey article about nyi impatience with top 5 draft packs is hilarious and reassuring

    Last, DSF does not get credit for saying that Hamilton is better than reinhart. My 4 year old daughter knows the difference between the two

  99. nafnikufesin says:

    elgruntus:
    Griff wore the “C” on the last team that brought pride and glory to this pride and glory starved city! That’s enough for me to have his back. There’s no way I’m going to “Horcoff”*him before he even laces up and shows us what he is.

    * to Horcoff – The tendency for fans to turn on a player for reasons other than their on ice performance.

    Why does everyone ignore the Golden Bears? They’ve never stopped playing quality hockey and are always competitive.

  100. Dashingsilverfox says:

    Магия 10: We paid more for Nursethan the 16 and 33 we paid for GR.

    Yes the 33 was for the player being 3 years closer.Islanders drafted him too high, but a close look says he’s on track compared to expectations for the D left at 16 this year. And of course BPA is for the draft age kids.

    In a redraft of 2012 I doubt Reinhart goes top 20.

    There’s a reason the Islanders were willing to give him up.

    He will likely be an NHL defenseman but, in a very D heavy draft, he’s likely the 10th best D prospect drafted.

  101. Connor'sreal says:

    Let’s hope that Reinhart doesn’t end up being that d-man who just opens and closes the bench door for other players. That would make him Griffin-door.

    Good Night

  102. Adam Wu says:

    Pertaining to a discussion of the effectiveness of Chiarelli’s move in obtaining Reinhart in relationship to what other options he may have had, a comparison to Hamilton is irrelevant, as we now know that Hamilton was never available to Chiarelli from the start.

    Pertaining to the relative impacts of the move to obtain Reinhart for the Oilers versus the move that obtained Hamilton for the Flames, a direct comparison between the two players is invalid without also factoring in the difference in salary costs, and what the Oilers end up doing with the $5 million-ish difference between what Hamilton will be paid by the Flames, and what the Oilers will be paying for Reinhart, for however many years it takes for Reinhart to end up commanding a salary of similar magnitude, if he ever does.

    Pertaining to speculation about on-ice competitiveness in head to head games, the comparison between Reinhart and Hamilton is also, in isolation, irrelevant, since they won’t be playing against each other directly on the ice. The relevant question will be how does the matchup between Reinhart and, say Gaudreau or Monohan compare relative to the matchup between Hamilton and McDavid. In other words, Reinhart will win the competition for his team in the long run if he can shut down Monohan better than Hamilton can shut down McDavid, so he doesn’t actually need to be an objectively better D than Hamilton to emerge victorious in the comparison.

    Thus, as a matter of intelligent hockey debate, DSF’s Hamilton tangent is, as usual, irrelevant, and its only purpose is the elicitation of an emotional reaction, upon which DSF feeds, vampire-like, isolated and alone.

  103. One-Timer says:

    Dashingsilverfox: In a redraft of 2012 I doubt Reinhart goes top 20.

    There’s a reason the Islanders were willing to give him up.

    He will likely be an NHL defenseman but, in a very D heavy draft, he’s likely the 10th best D prospect drafted.

    I don’t know that he’s “likely” the tenth best D in 2012 (and there were a hell of a lot of them), but even if so, there’s no huge drop-off between the 4th and 10th, whoever they are. (Keep in mind LT’s 5-year rule…)

    If Chia had pulled off the same trade for Lindholme, Dumba or Maatta, heads would still have exploded. It’s an Oilerfan draft thing.

  104. Really? says:

    All the cheap shots taken by so called Oiler fans at Griffin Reinhart explain, to a tee, why Edmonton has developed a losing hockey culture.

    All these supposed fans are so ready to attack a young player that they dont even think about what this player has already accomplished and are just wanting to tear him apart because he may not be perfect.

    Frankly, Edmonton fans simply don’t deserve good young players like Reinhart and McDavis.

  105. Adam Wu says:

    Dashingsilverfox: In a redraft of 2012 I doubt Reinhart goes top 20.

    Divide by 2 and you’d get a number that is closer to honest reality.

    There’s a reason the Islanders were willing to give him up.

    There are many possible reasons for that. Among those reasons includes the Islanders being wrong, and Chiarelli fleecing them.

    Of course, if DSF were intellectually honest, he would have apply the same standard of argument to Hamilton, and conclude that there must be some flaw in him that was the reason the Bruins were willing to give him up.

    He will likely be an NHL defenseman but, in a very D heavy draft, he’s likely the 10th best D prospect drafted.

    Divide that number by 2 or 3 and we would be somewhat closer to an intellectually honest assessment, rather than something deliberately done to provoke the negative and hurtful feelings upon which DSF, vampire-like, alone and friendless, draws on for sustenance.

  106. dangilitis says:

    “D Griffin Reinhart, 40%. I’d have him lower if not for Chiarelli’s comments but Reinhart’s in a bit of a poke here. The Oilers LH side rolling out for a decade is already here, so the big man is either staring third pairing in the face or someone moves right side. He’s certainly talented enough to have a long career but he’s going to have a tough time here in my opinion. He may force a trade with fine play in Bakersfield, that’s probably the ideal scenario.”

    “Agree completely. I think Nurse, Klefbom and Reinhart are going to be the D cluster for a long time in Edmonton.”

    You won’t be getting any emails from me, promise, but these 2 paragraphs are incompatible. Please explain which opinion is correct!

  107. OilClog says:

    Reinhart didn’t make a stacked D in NYI, that he would of been on last season if not for the Additions of Leddy and The Bruin.

    Hamilton is on a pretty veteran team in the Bruins and they can make a young player look real good..

    Islanders made the playoffs

    Bruins did not

    Reinhart didn’t make the big club but they made the playoffs, Hamilton was on the big club but didn’t make the playoffs.

    Reinhart has that sweet mem cup mvp, Dougie did not.

    This is how DSF math works every other way right?

    Thrilled to have Reinhart, kid is a beast, Oilers turned the 16 and 33 into a player that’s ready to go now and should be here for a decade.

    Nurse will match Hamilton and quickly pass him. McJesus effect.

  108. Dashingsilverfox says:

    Adam Wu: Divide by 2 and you’d get a number that is closer to honest reality.

    There are many possible reasons for that. Among those reasons includes the Islanders being wrong, and Chiarelli fleecing them.

    Of course, if DSF were intellectually honest, he would have apply the same standard of argument to Hamilton, and conclude that there must be some flaw in him that was the reason the Bruins were willing to give him up.

    Divide that number by 2 or 3 and we would be somewhat closer to an intellectually honest assessment, rather than something deliberately done to provoke the negative and hurtful feelings upon which DSF, vampire-like, alone and friendless, draws on for sustenance.

    If you think Hamilton and Reinhart are in the same area code….I can’t help you.

  109. One-Timer says:

    Adam Wu,

    You, sir, have been studying your NFL ref memes. Well done!

  110. square_wheels says:

    stush18,

    Hjalmorson is Chicago’s actual 2D, not Seabiscuit as some think.

  111. TheOtherJohn says:

    Adam Wu,

    I think the intelligent hockey debate would be between what hockey talent Chiarelli could have selected with the 16th and 33rd picks in what was reputed to be a deep draft and Reinhart. In the 2003 draft there were some very very good players available between 16 and 30 and even some Olympians in the 2nd round. No way of knowing, yet, whether the 2015 draft will be anywhere near that deep. If it is, we could look back at the trade as an opportunity lost.

    If Reinhart is a SCF quality 2nd pair D he’ll be a good albeit possibly expensive add. If he plays 3rd pairing it could be a horrible trade

    Reinhart versus Gaudreau & Monahan

    OR

    Hamilton versus CMD

    I’d almost suspect you were trying to select comparisons that might be a wee bit easier for Reinhart to succeed at. Naw that couldn’t be possible

    As to the suggestion that Oiler fans would be upset if Chia traded 16 & 33 for Trouba, Lindholm or Maata ……. Each of those players is already playing 20+ minutes a night on playoff teams. Make the trade. Immediately, or sooner

  112. Glovjuice says:

    Dashingsilverfox,

    2015 is way overrated – it’s not statistically possible to have one draft where picks 15-30 are all 5-20 in other years and the entire second round is like a first round / think, man, think!

  113. TheOtherJohn says:

    Glovjuice,

    Go look at the 2003 draft and come back and feel free to apologize

  114. G Money says:

    RexLibris:
    Found this today: http://imgur.com/gallery/rjE84

    A series of NFL referee memes that would be highly entertaining (and useful) for anyone familiar with some of our more…obstinate and persistent debaters here on the site.

    GMoney, WG, LT, Frjohnk, NYCOil (formerly or presently), Speeds, Spoiler, Ryan, and any others who have lost an evening in argument with Voldemort may enjoy this.

    Note – Found myself red-faced and coughing I was laughing so hard on these.

    Those are beyond awesome.

    I saw them yesterday as a post on Facebook, but the perp had them as images in his own album, so I couldn’t translate them for use here.

    Golden find!!

  115. Bag of Pucks says:

    Islanders gave up on Niederreiter too soon. He popped 24Gs last year and followed that up with a strong playoff.

    Oilers won’t be the first team to profit from Snow’s impatience, nor the last.

    DSF just couldn’t stay away I see. The Farce is strong with this one.

  116. Glovjuice says:

    Really?,

    I agree – my hypothesis is that the fans in EDM and TO make it impossible for these teams to win the cup (this phenomenon started in EDM more recently than TO).

  117. G Money says:

    Adam Wu: if DSF were intellectually honest, he would have apply the same standard of argument to Hamilton

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    That’s awesome. Let me try!

    “if Greece were rich, they’d loan money to Germany”

    “if Justin Bieber had talent, he’d write good music once in a while”

    “if Donald Trump wasn’t an intolerant blowhard and bigot, he might make a decent Republican candidate”

    and of course, the classic

    “if my Aunt had balls, she’d be my uncle”

  118. wheatnoil says:

    You’ve got to give Chiarelli this… he’s done in a couple months on the job what MacT promised but couldn’t deliver in two years… a truly bold move.

  119. Connor'sreal says:

    Bag of Pucks: The Farce is strong with this one.

    DaStrongForce

    Also acceptable:

    DogmaticallySpreadsFalsities

  120. Kraz says:

    Lets face it, if any of us watched Keith or Suter in their draft +3 year no one would be saying they would become #1 dmen. Developing dmen can be voodoo at times. Chiarelli did take a risk but atleast it was a calculated one. You can put me in the pro Reinhart camp as I think he will develop into a top 3 dman.

  121. TheOtherJohn says:

    wheatnoil,

    Agree completely

  122. wheatnoil says:

    Bling:

    Hjalmarsson wasn’t in the Hawks lineup until halfway through his age 22 season.

    If GR follows his career path to a T, would anyone be disappointed?

    Hjalmarsson: 6’3″, 205 lbs
    Reinhart: 6’4″, 205 lbs

    Draft + 1
    Hjalmarsson – Played in Swedish Junior League & got 4 games + playoffs in the SEL
    Reinhart – WHL

    Draft + 2
    Hjalmarsson – Played mostly in SEL with a few games in Swedish Junior league
    Reinhart – WHL (notably, the best defender on the best possession team in the WHL)

    Draft + 3
    Hjalmarsson – AHL: 47 games, 0.28 p/g, -8; NHL: 13 games, 0.08 p/g, -2
    Reinhart – AHL: 59 games, 0.37 p/g, -13; NHL: 8 games, 0.13 p/g, +1

    Draft + 4
    Hjalmarsson – AHL: 52 games, 0.35 p/g, +12; NHL: 21 games, 0.14 p/g, +4
    Reinhart – ?

    Now, Hjalmarsson was a 4th round draft choice not a 4th overall draft choice and this is about as broad a swipe at things as you can possibly have.

    It doesn’t mean all that much other than to say that if we’re hoping for Reinhart to follow Hjalmarsson’s trajectory, he’s certainly not behind the curve. In fact, we should not be disappointed if he plays a majority of the season in the AHL next year too.

  123. Hammers says:

    Kraz:
    Lets face it, if any of us watched Keith or Suter in their draft +3 year no one would be saying they would become #1 dmen. Developing dmen can be voodoo at times. Chiarelli did take a risk but atleast it was a calculated one. You can put me in the pro Reinhart camp as I think he will develop into a top 3 dman.

    So totally agree . His a 2 nd pair D and will fit what we need .

  124. Dashingsilverfox says:

    wheatnoil: Hjalmarsson: 6’3″, 205 lbs
    Reinhart: 6’4″, 205 lbs

    Draft + 1
    Hjalmarsson – Played in Swedish Junior League & got 4 games + playoffs in the SEL
    Reinhart – WHL

    Draft + 2
    Hjalmarsson – Played mostly in SEL with a few games in Swedish Junior league
    Reinhart – WHL (notably, the best defender on the best possession team in the WHL)

    Draft + 3
    Hjalmarsson – AHL: 47 games, 0.28 p/g, -8; NHL: 13 games, 0.08 p/g, -2
    Reinhart – AHL: 59 games, 0.37 p/g, -13; NHL: 8 games, 0.13 p/g, +1

    Draft + 4
    Hjalmarsson – AHL: 52 games, 0.35 p/g, +12; NHL: 21 games, 0.14 p/g, +4
    Reinhart – ?

    Now, Hjalmarsson was a 4th round draft choice not a 4th overall draft choice and this is about as broad a swipe at things as you can possibly have.

    It doesn’t mean all that much other than to say that if we’re hoping for Reinhart to play Hjalmarsson minutes, he’s certainly not behind the curve. In fact, we should not be disappointed if he plays a majority of the season in the AHL next year too.

    So, what you’re saying is…best possible case…the Oilers traded Mat Barzal and Anthony Beauvillier for Griffen Reinhart.

    I would wager BOTH of those players will have a higher impact that Reinhart.

  125. speeds says:

    Adam Wu:
    Pertaining to a discussion of the effectiveness of Chiarelli’s move in obtaining Reinhart in relationship to what other options he may have had, a comparison to Hamilton is irrelevant, as we now know that Hamilton was never available to Chiarelli from the start.

    Pertaining to the relative impacts of the move to obtain Reinhart for the Oilers versus the move that obtained Hamilton for the Flames, a direct comparison between the two players is invalid without also factoring in the difference in salary costs, and what the Oilers end up doing with the $5 million-ish difference between what Hamilton will be paid by the Flames, and what the Oilers will be paying for Reinhart, for however many years it takes for Reinhart to end up commanding a salary of similar magnitude, if he ever does.

    Important to not overstate what we “know”.

    It was reported that EDM offered their 3 picks for Hamilton, AFAIK, as did CGY. So assuming we “know” that to be true, all we “know” is that faced with a marginally better offer, BOS would rather have not dealt him to EDM. We don’t “know” that they necessarily would have said “no” to 16, 33 and 2016 1st, although we can debate whether they would have, whether EDM should have made that offer, etc.

  126. PaperDesigner says:

    Griffin Reinhart doesn’t have to be part of an objectively good trade or track like a top pairing defenceman to be someone I cheer for. I am with Lowetide– like the player, but not the deal that brought him here. I think we watch Barzal turn into a player, as well as several players drafted shortly after 33 that make us wish that we kept those picks. The key, though, is if Klefbom and Nurse can develop to the point that we don’t care all that much.

  127. Gret99zky says:

    Woodguy: Screw you!!

    I’m sending an email!!!

    “Don’t scathe me, bro!”

  128. Halfwise says:

    Dashingsilverfox,

    You just can’t leave this place alone, can you?

    As long as we’re playing by your rules, the Oilers also have to make bad picks when they draft, because that is what you say they do.

    So pick some plug from at least 20 slots later in each case. The Oilers can’t choose Barzal if that is what competent teams would do.

    And pay no attention to the crowd of unhappy fans who can’t live on promises and futures any more. In Edmonton in 2015, good and soon is worth more than maybe great but for sure later if ever.

  129. Chachi says:

    Dashingsilverfox: If you think Hamilton and Reinhart are in the same area code….I can’t help you.

    I think I can help here. Unless Reinhart and Hamilton are in a geographic area that uses the same area code before telephone numbers they will not be in the same area code. On nights they play against each other they will be in the same area code. This is pretty simple to figure out because an “area code” is not a unit of measure. Just in case there is some confusion the following are also not units of measure:
    Flavours of ice cream
    Names of Bond Girls
    Clouds

  130. wheatnoil says:

    Dashingsilverfox: So, what you’re saying is…best possible case…the Oilers traded Mat Barzal and Anthony Beauvillier for Griffen Reinhart.

    For the sake of accuracy, Beauvillier was selected 28th overall and thus was not available at 33rd.

  131. Магия 10 says:

    PaperDesigner: I think we watch Barzal turn into a player, as well as several players drafted shortly after 33 that make us wish that we kept those picks

    You can’t get there from here. You have to pick 1 player after 33 and see if that is a better result than GR. Only DSF gets to pick the field and compare it to something in Edmonton.

  132. stush18 says:

    Dashingsilverfox: So, what you’re saying is…best possible case…the Oilers traded Mat Barzal and Anthony Beauvillier for Griffen Reinhart.

    I would wager BOTH of those players will have a higher impact that Reinhart.

    I’d wager Barzal continues his injury history and flames out like Bennett soon will. And beauvillier won’t get any playing time behind the islanders and end up getting traded for futures.

    See, I can make wild, outlandish statements that require nothing to back them up. It’s pretty easy actually.

    Seriously, you should stop. I’ve defended you on here many a time, but it seems like you are unable to form an actual thought without your jekyl and troll personality disorder popping out. If you are here to actually talk hockey, move the discussion ahead, or at least back up your wild statements with actual facts, then I welcome and enjoy reading you.

    Until then, stop brown-nosing LT in hopes that he doesn’t notice or care about your obvious trollisms, and come back when Calgary makes the playoffs.

  133. stush18 says:

    square_wheels:
    stush18,

    Hjalmorson is Chicago’s actual 2D, not Seabiscuit as some think.

    That was kind of my point. I’d be very happy with that. We don’t need a seabrook who racks up points beside the leagues best defenceman.

    We need a shutdown, hard minutes, number 4 (2) guy who can allow easy minutes to our other guys.

  134. Bling says:

    speeds:
    One thing I will say about Reinhart is, even if you think the price was pretty high, he has 6 RFA years remaining and doesn’t, to this point, seem like the kind of D that, if he pans out as hoped, will be exorbitantly expensive.That has potential value over and above his on ice value.

    This is a fantastic point.

  135. Bank Shot says:

    Dashingsilverfox: So, what you’re saying is…best possible case…the Oilers traded Mat Barzal and Anthony Beauvillier for Griffen Reinhart.

    I would wager BOTH of those players will have a higher impact that Reinhart.

    I think Barzal could be the next Sergei Shirokov. He’s THAT good!

  136. frjohnk says:

    Just looking back on some Reinhart history.

    Was Reinhart a reach pick in 2012?

    Not according to the Islanders who grabbed him at 4th.
    or Bobs bible
    http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9831

    He was good enough to be one of the top 7 D for Canada at the WJC in 2013

    He was also good enough to be one of the top 7 D for Canada at the WJC in 2014 even though he was suspended for the first 3 games.

    “Canada took a chance in naming Reinhart to the 22-man squad, because it left them with only six healthy bodies on the back end.

    It almost fell to five when Matt Dumba came down with flu-like symptoms during Canada’s tournament-opening 7-2 win over Germany, but the Minnesota Wild defenceman played through the Czech game despite a fever and a sore throat that left him barely able to talk.

    Sutter stands by the risky decision.

    “When you looked at the defencemen that were there, there was a reason we could be patient and wait three games for him to be back,” said Sutter. “He brings those things you just don’t find in every defenceman.

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/griffin-reinhart-s-world-junior-suspension-ended-monday-1.2478991

    By the end of the 2014 season he was the most dominant player on the Mem cup winning team.

    Aug 1. 2014 he was the best prospect on the Islanders list
    http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=727232

    And at the start of the 2014-15 there was the expectation that GR would make the Islanders
    http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=725822
    but with Nick Leddy and Johnny Boychuk being added to a D core with Calvin De Haan, Travis Hominic, Thomas Hickey, Lubomir Visnovsky patrolling the blue line, it was better for Griff to play lots of minutes in the AHL than stay in the press box.

    In the AHL he put up 7 goals 15 assists 22 points in 59 games playing against the toughs on a team that went 28-40-0-8 and ended up second last in the league.

    Jay Boumeester draft +3 put up 4 goals 13 assists and was -22 in 64 games with San Antonio in 04-05. San Antonio was brutal 27-45-0-8. In that same year, Bouwmeester went to Chicago who were way better and Bouwmeester put up 6 goals 3 assists in 18 games and was a plus 4.
    Funny how a good team can makes ones stats look better.

    In the recent Hockey Futures article he is ranked the 14th best prospect with a ceiling of top pairing D man.
    http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect-rankings/postseason-prospect-rankings-2014-15/page/1

    Are there guys in his draft that have passed him?

    Yes there is, and while he may not be the stud D man everybody expected in 2012, he is still tracking to be a pretty damn good hockey player in the NHL.

    I like this player and will be cheering like hell for him.

  137. wheatnoil says:

    stush18: That was kind of my point. I’d be very happy with that. We don’t need a seabrook who racks up points beside the leagues best defenceman.

    We need a shutdown, hard minutes, number 4 (2) guy who can allow easy minutes to our other guys.

    This is why I get annoyed with the number 1, 2, 3, top 4, etc labeling of D-men. It’s not all that informative. Do we mean ice-time? Points? Even-strength or special teams?

    If Reinhart meets his outer marker (as Stush describes), it’s playing the toughest competition with heavy d-zone starts and PK work. If he can be in that top left corner of the Vollman with a blue bubble but doesn’t rack up points… what number is that? Whatever it is, it is a highly valuable outer range.

  138. misfit says:

    I was against the trade at the time, I don’t think Reinhart has developed as well since draft day as you would hope, and I also really like they player (loved him in his draft-1, and draft year). I don’t onow which side that puts me on.

    The thing I would point to as a negative is the lack of offense. LT mentioned lots of criticism towards skating, but it never worried me. But for a guy who is talked about as top pairing and for what we gave to get him, I would want him to bring more in all 3 zones.

    The positive narratives that his defenders like to point to most don’t give me much relief either (there are reasons why I like him, just that the most common arguments aren’t terribly strong IMO). The biggest thing that seems to be said among his supporters regarding his AHL season was that he was the main shutdown guy playing tough minutes. I’m on board with that based on his junior career and where he gets plotted on the Vollman through his brief period with the Islanders. I’m just not sure if that’s good or bad. First of all, is it good that a rookie is being thrown to the wolves like that or would it be better to give him a more forgiving role out of the gate? Also, is it better to be average/poor in a tough situation or excell in a more favorable one? I seem to remember Luke Schennhaving a heavy dose of defensive zonestarts in the early days. He was a top pick with plenty of hype and reason for excitement about his future.

    The other thing that gets thrown around is his junior accomplishments. He was the best defenseman on a stacked junior squad who won it all in his final season of eligibility. Nothing wrong with that, that’s for sure. But Cam Barker never left the ice when he played for the Tigers, and was the best player on an excellent team that had a lot of success as well.

    I was a huge fan of his in junior, and dispite how what I’ve written above may sound, I like his future as well. I see a player similar to Braydon Coburn (another player who logged insane minutes as a junior) when it’s all said and done. That’s a very useful player, no doubt, but how long did it take Coburn to be a strong NHL defenseman, and what kind of opportunity/support did he have in getting there? Can we afford him that same development before the masses turn on him? Those are the worries for me. The Thrashers had never made the playoffs when he was traded and needed him to be more than what he was at 21. When he became a Flyer, he was able to play with Derian Hatcher, Jason Smith and Kimmo Timmonen, and even then, people still weren’t sold on him until just a couple of years ago.

    I think we have such a player, and I’ll be cheering like hell for him. I just think the price was a lot and the timing was odd. Trading the picks for a more established defender would’ve gone a lot farther towards getting us back to playoff contention immediately, and using the picks would’ve got us quality prospects whose rooke years would be after Nurse/Klefbom/etc had a chance to get some meaningful NHL experience under their belts. Instead we got someone in the exact same point in his development and I don’t know if you can develop 3 defensemen at the same time in the NHL and have any sort of success.

  139. PaperDesigner says:

    Магия 10: You can’t get there from here. You have to pick 1 player after 33 and see if that is a better result than GR. Only DSF gets to pick the field and compare it to something in Edmonton.

    My point is even if number 33 isn’t a player, there could be multiple in the range that could have made, theoretically, a fine choice at that position.

    Whether Edmonton has the scouting talent to identify the right player, however, I don’t know. Barzal was a slam dunk at 16, and his career will be of interest, to say the least.

  140. jm363561 says:

    “I think Reinhart has to become a top pairing D for Oilers to win that trade.”

    I don’t buy that at all – do you think a 16 + 33 would get you a bona fide top pairing defender in a trade? Not a chance (refer Hamilton giveaway). Would You accept a 16 + 33 for Da Nurse (a no. 7 pick with top pair potential)? I thought not.

    If GR becomes a top 4 guy (which I sure he will unless he is run out of town by our “fans”) then it’s a good trade; top pairing then it’s a stunning trade. The problem is too many seem to think 16 + 33 should get you Drew Doughty. I can hear the boos already.

  141. Bruce McCurdy says:

    PaperDesigner: My point is even if number 33 isn’t a player, there could be multiple in the range that could have made, theoretically, a fine choice at that position.

    Whether Edmonton has the scouting talent to identify the right player, however, I don’t know. Barzal was a slam dunk at 16, and his career will be of interest, to say the least.

    yeah, the 20/20 hindsight crowd will be happy to choose — when the timing is right — whoever has the best career from 33 on down to point out what a shitty trade Oilers made.

    Pick your one name right now today who was available at #16 and another one name who was available at 33, stick by those names, and we can have a conversation. Otherwise it’s just more DSF bafflegab.

  142. Bank Shot says:

    For as much as some raved about Marincin and we all raved about Klefbom, Griffin Reinhart has outscored them both in the AHL over their careers.

    Reinhart scored at a rate of .37 ppg in his first season. Much better than Klefbom. Marincin outscored him slightly in his first season, but Marincin also spent a lot of time playing with guys that were way too good for the AHL that year. When you take into account Marincin’s entire AHL career his scoring rate actually drops below Reinhart’s first season.

    Is most of the upset at the aquistion of Reinhart based on his poor corsi in his 8 game look see in the NHL?

    I’m not sure why else someone would think he is a failing prospect. 8 games is not a lot of data to draw a conclusion.

    If Reinhart ends up being an upgrade on Marincin for the next 7 years shouldn’t we be happy about that?

    I’m in wait and see mode on this deal. It doesn’t look to me that Reinhart is doomed for failure. His first AHL season looks pretty good by scoring numbers which all we really have at this point.

  143. AsiaOil says:

    Could care less about DSF – don’t even read his stuff – others should do the same. But about Reinhart – here are the last ten #16 picks. Not coulda, woulda, shoulda – but actual #16 picks:

    Mathew Barzal
    Sonny Milano
    Nikita Zadorov
    Tom Wilson
    Joel Armia
    Vladimir Tarasenko
    Nick Leddy
    Joe Colborne
    Colton Gillies
    Ty Wishart

    Obviously Tarasenko is a jewel – but the rest of the list aside from Leddy is a big yawn. This is what you actually get at #16 – a 10% shot at impact. So I’m happy we traded this lottery ticket along with an even worse lottery ticket for a guy who likely fills a giant hole in the roster for years to come. Of course others believe themselves clairvoyant – and I leave them to this conceit – this will be a non-issue in 18 months.

  144. Lynas1 says:

    Miles to go on this guy. Price of acquisition shouldn’t affect player evaluation on their on ice ability. Way too early to call him a legit player, or Cam Barker.

  145. Ducey says:

    Wild Bill Hunter: I would point to the fact that Reinhart’s point production declined from around .62 per game in his draft year to less than .5 during his last year of junior while Nurse’s point production increased from around .61 to .92 last year.Nurse has shown more indication of improvement offensively.

    Nurses TOI was off the charts though – at least based on a playoff viewing.

    As well, in GRs last year of junior he got less PP minutes as they played Corbett and 4 forwards.

    I absolutely love Nurse but GR will be a very good D man, too.

  146. Woodguy says:

    Bruce McCurdy: yeah, the 20/20 hindsight crowd will be happy to choose — when the timing is right — whoever has the best career from 33 on down to point out what a shitty trade Oilers made.

    Pick your one name right now today who was available at #16 and another one name who was available at 33, stick by those names, and we can have a conversation. Otherwise it’s just more DSF bafflegab.

    For the record I don’t hate the trade or the player, just wished they had filled a hole rather than adding to the abundance of LHD.

    Maybe he’ll trade from that abundance to fill the RHD hole now?

    I was long on the “draft McDavid and trade the rest to fill holes” train, it’s just when you get close to the draft you lose perspective a bit on the reality of developing kids and Oilers need to turn north during McDavid’s ELC.

    Anyhow, my two picks were Svechnikov and Meloche. I’m tempted to swap Roy with Meloche as he went at 31, but you cannot guarantee the Oilers would have traded up to get him.

    Svechnikov and Meloche.

    Let’s check back at the end of McDavid’s ELC (!) and see how they are doing.

  147. Woodguy says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: argle bargle.

    BaffleWithBelieveableBullshit

  148. jm363561 says:

    AsiaOil:
    Could care less about DSF – don’t even read his stuff – others should do the same. But about Reinhart – here are the last ten #16 picks. Not coulda, woulda, shoulda – but actual #16 picks:

    Mathew Barzal
    Sonny Milano
    Nikita Zadorov
    Tom Wilson
    Joel Armia
    Vladimir Tarasenko
    Nick Leddy
    Joe Colborne
    Colton Gillies
    Ty Wishart

    Obviously Tarasenko is a jewel – but the rest of the list aside from Leddy is a big yawn. This is what you actually get at #16 – a 10% shot at impact. So I’m happy we traded this lottery ticket along with an even worse lottery ticket for a guy who likely fills a giant hole in the roster for years to come. Of course others believe themselves clairvoyant – and I leave them to this conceit – this will be a non-issue in 18 months.

    Excellent, excellent, excellent. I just hope he has not been booed out of town before.

  149. GCW_69 says:

    Bruce McCurdy: yeah, the 20/20 hindsight crowd will be happy to choose — when the timing is right — whoever has the best career from 33 on down to point out what a shitty trade Oilers made.

    Pick your one name right now today who was available at #16 and another one name who was available at 33, stick by those names, and we can have a conversation. Otherwise it’s just more DSF bafflegab.

    For the record, I wanted Chiarelli to trade the picks for an established top for defender. If he had offered Boston all of the Oilers draft picks after McDavid for Hamilton I would have been fine with it. If he had spent 16 + on Shattenkirk, Larsson, Ekman-Larson, or even Severson I would have been fine with it.

    It’s that he spent those assets on futures for their deepest position (LD) prospect wise, and didn’t even come away with a sure thing that pisses me off.

    I will take Barzal and, for fun, Blackwood.

  150. PhrankLee says:

    frjohnk: I like this player and will be cheering like hell for him.

    Hear, hear!

    I am really excited to have him. His emergence will fit nicely with the Oilers emergence.

    I can’t believe the sour rhetoric about this deal. It’s perplexing. Unless the complainers are using the CGY BOS Hamilton deal as comparison.. That’s not fair. So bad that CGY is probably taking quotes for a bronze statue of Burke bending Sweeney over…

    I would love to have a team with 5 guys who are capable of top 4 pairing, no?

  151. TheOtherJohn says:

    Woodguy,

    Kyle Connor and Paul Bittner.

  152. Jaxon says:

    Every fan thinks their #16 and #33 pick are going to turn into top 6 forwards or top 4 D. Thanks to Cullen’s work, we can be quite certain that is misguided. #16 has an only 25% chance of turning into a top 9 forward or a top 6 D, and only a 15% chance of turning into a top 6 forward or top 4 D. #33 has only a 16% chance of turning into a top 9 forward or a top 6 D, and only a 13% chance of turning into a top 6 forward or top 4 D.

    Reinhart is one of the best D not yet in the NHL. The Hockey News Future Watch has him as the 2nd best D prospect behind Nurse and Hockeys Future website has him as the 3rd best D prospect behind Nurse and Derrick Pouliot. Historically, anyone who has made the top 4 D on either of those publications has made it as an NHLer. For example, going back to THN Future Watch 2009 & 2010 their top 4 D prospects were Alex Pietrabgelo, Erik Karlsson, Tyler Myers and PK Subban in 2009 and Alex Pietrangelo, Oliver Ekman-Larsson, John Carlson and Luca Sbisa in 2010. I’d rather have someone in that company than a 15% chance and a 13% chance at a top 6 forward or a top 4 D.

    Barzal looks like a great prospect in a deep draft who fell a bit, but so did Steve Bernier, drafted at #16 in the 2003 deep draft. Actually, he looked more promising than Barzal. He was big and outproduced Barzal, scoring 101pts in 71 games. The draft is a crap shoot at best, even when you think you’ve drafted a sure thing in the mid first round of a deep draft. I like the Reinhart trade and I’m someone who loves draft picks.

  153. jonrmcleod says:

    Woodguy: For the record I don’t hate the trade or the player, just wished they had filled a hole rather than adding to the abundance of LHD.

    GCW_69: It’s that he spent those assets on futures for their deepest position (LD) prospect wise, and didn’t even come away with a sure thing that pisses me off.

    Reinhart spent significant time on the right side in both the WHL and AHL.

  154. magisterrex says:

    When Chia took over as GM of the Bruins, one of his first acquisitions was a big blueliner that people were concerned did not have the tools to make the NHL. That blueliner had a -27 for his first two seasons, and his scouting report included concerns about footspeed.

    A dominating all-round defenseman. Plays aggressively, loves to be physical and hits a lot. A hard-working team player. Possesses one of the hardest slapshots in the game. Lacks speed and agility, which can lead to issues with quick forwards. A very good penalty killer and, thanks to his slapshot, a useful point man on powerplay. (Matias Strozyk, 2011, from Eliteprospects.com)

    I’m not suggesting that Griffin Reinhardt is the next coming of Zdeno Chara, but I am willing to give Chia the benefit of the doubt that he is capable of making player evaluations, and knows a diamond in the rough when he sees it. I firmly believe that he paid next to nothing for a Top-Four D (and maybe higher).

    Don’t get too attached to draft picks. They’re just futures, and futures don’t always pay out.

    Griffin is more present than future.

  155. Rational Zealot says:

    Jaxon:

    Reinhart is one of the best D not yet in the NHL. The Hockey News Future Watch has him as the 2nd best D prospect behind Nurse and Hockeys Future website has him as the 3rd best D prospect behind Nurse and Derrick Pouliot. Historically, anyone who has made the top 4 D on either of those publications has made it as an NHLer. For example, going back to THN Future Watch 2009 & 2010 their top 4 D prospects were Alex Pietrabgelo, Erik Karlsson, Tyler Myers and PK Subban in 2009 and Alex Pietrangelo, Oliver Ekman-Larsson, John Carlson and Luca Sbisa in 2010. I’d rather have someone in that company than a 15% chance and a 13% chance at a top 6 forward or a top 4 D.

    Those prospect rankings are from before the season when hockey’s future had him as the #14 prospect in the NHL. Since then his stock has dropped. Pronman had him in the 30-40 range with the added comment, and I paraphrase, will never live up to his #4 draft position but still a good prospect.

    Guys who watch the Islanders closely say he’s been passed by Mayfield and Tulock

    That’s the defense, a guy who is still a good prospect, but has been passed, or at least is only treading water, in comparison to guys in his own organization. Reinhart is nowhere near the 3rd best D prospect not in the NHL.

    This place has gone bizarro world. DSF is making ridiculous claims on behalf of the truth, while those debating him have left their brains at the side of the world and have started making outright dishonest arguments. Worse, they don’t realize it. DSF at least knows that he’s engaging in rhetoric.

    This whole debate needs a reset of expectations.

    1). Reinhart is not a sure thing grade A prospect. The guys in his draft class that were are already established NHL players.

    2) He is not NHL ready. We know this because when he played in the NHL he didn’t play particularly well.

    3) This doesn’t mean he is a bust. He still has a good chance to have a solid NHL career. Getting that guy on an ELC has value.

    The defense of Reinhart has gone way over the top into outright lies. It should stop.

  156. Lowetide says:

    frjohnk:
    Just looking back on some Reinhart history.

    Was Reinhart a reach pick in 2012?

    Not according to the Islanders who grabbed him at 4th.
    or Bobs bible
    http://www2.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=9831

    Very true, but he would have been a reach at No. 1. As it happened in 2012, I wrote THREE NO. 1 posts because it wasn’t at all clear (the last one I wrote was Yakupov because I had assumed the tip I received the morning of the draft was correct and they were not taking the Russian) who was going to be selected.

    In the post that never was, I wrote:

    Those who suggest Edmonton made a mistake today have an extremely strong case. If the Oilers felt Reinhart was the man, dealing down was the move. This is the kind of asset management that losing teams do over and over again. Not recognizing the situation tells us the Oilers are not strong in the front office. This lands squarely on Steve Tambellini. Inertia.

    http://lowetide.ca/2012/07/08/oilers-pick-at-1-griffin-reinhart-what-might-have-been/

  157. Rational Zealot says:

    I couldn’t find THN Future Watch 2015 (for free). Does anyone have a copy? Where does Reinhart rank?

    I found a rising stars which had this for D.

    Shea Theodore: #20
    Madison Bowey: #25
    Samuel Morin: #31
    Steve Santini: #39
    Ryan Pulock: #40
    Ryan Sproul” #49

    Is Reinhart better than these guys? Pronman had Reinhart in the 30-40 range and he’s respected around here. I don’t know who any of the guys in the 30-40 range are and I suspect many of you don’t either. Would you be happy if the trade was for one of them? I suspect not.

    Anyway, to avoid the hindsight is 20/20 trap, I’ll say I’d rather have Pulock. That way the trade is the same, but we get the guy with the right handed shot with the offensive upside.

    Though really, my only stake in the game is that Reinhart is overated.

  158. Woodguy says:

    jonrmcleod:
    Reinhart spent significant time on the right side in both the WHL and AHL.

    I can appreciate that, but it doesn’t make him right handed.

    Sticks on the boards in the d-zone forever and ever amen.

  159. Магия 10 says:

    Rational Zealot: Those prospect rankings are from before the season when hockey’s future had him as the #14 prospect in the NHL

    Here’s the link. #14 from THIS Post season:

    http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect-rankings/postseason-prospect-rankings-2014-15/page/2

    Rational Zealot: have started making outright dishonest arguments. Worse, they don’t realize it

    That’s quite the trick. Which were you in the bit about the 14th rating?

    EDIT: doubt you were outright dishonest or even ordinary dishonest. So perhaps you were just mistaken. You really should allow others to either be mistaken. dishonest AND mistaken is way too much cowbell. You are adding zealotry not rationality to the discussion.

  160. frjohnk says:

    Rational Zealot:
    I couldn’t find THN Future Watch 2015 (for free).Does anyone have a copy?Where does Reinhart rank?

    I found a rising stars which had this for D.

    Shea Theodore:#20
    Madison Bowey: #25
    Samuel Morin: #31
    Steve Santini: #39
    Ryan Pulock: #40
    Ryan Sproul” #49

    Is Reinhart better than these guys?Pronman had Reinhart in the 30-40 range and he’s respected around here.I don’t know who any of the guys in the 30-40 range are and I suspect many of you don’t either.Would you be happy if the trade was for one of them?I suspect not.

    Anyway, to avoid the hindsight is 20/20 trap, I’ll say I’d rather have Pulock.That way the trade is the same, but we get the guy with the right handed shot with the offensive upside.

    Though really, my only stake in the game is that Reinhart is overated.

    It came out in March

    1. Sam Reinhart
    2. Sam Bennett
    3. Leon Draisaitl
    4. Nikolaj Ehlers
    5. Max Domi
    6. Anthony Mantha
    7. Darnell Nurse
    8. Andrei Vasilevskiy
    9. Teuvo Teravainen
    10. Dylan Larkin
    11. William Nylander
    12. Michael Dal Colle
    13. Griffin Reinhart

    Only 2 D in the top 13 and they both belong to the Oilers.

  161. Rational Zealot says:

    frjohnk,

    Fair enough.

  162. frjohnk says:

    Lowetide: Very true, but he would have been a reach at No. 1. As it happened in 2012, I wrote THREE NO. 1 posts because it wasn’t at all clear (the last one I wrote was Yakupov because I had assumed the tip I received the morning of the draft was correct and they were not taking the Russian) who was going to be selected.

    In the post that never was, I wrote:

    Those who suggest Edmonton made a mistake today have an extremely strong case. If the Oilers felt Reinhart was the man, dealing down was the move. This is the kind of asset management that losing teams do over and over again. Not recognizing the situation tells us the Oilers are not strong in the front office. This lands squarely on Steve Tambellini. Inertia.

    http://lowetide.ca/2012/07/08/oilers-pick-at-1-griffin-reinhart-what-might-have-been/

    Yes, a reach pick for number 1, but at the time, at 4, that was the consensus. There are some who believe Reinhart at number 4 was a reach. It wasn’t.

    This is a great piece of advice

    •Welcome to the Edmonton Oilers, Griffin Reinhart! I sincerely hope you enjoy hit. A quick word of advice: rock someone in your first game, just lay them out. It’ll help, believe me.

  163. Walter Gretzkys Neighbour says:

    So I’m really really new here. I’ve read this blog avidly since I first found it a couple years ago. Mostly I’ve really enjoyed the comments, definitely the intelligent posters who offer actual analysis are a treat to read. Others who post well let’s just say not so much enjoyment…

    As to this topic, the Oilers traded “possible good players” for a probable effective defenceman. Every team does this, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t. As our great host here says “we wait”. I’m optimistic that the man who is doing this for his living is informed and rational. He (Chiarelli just to be clear) has some history we can all agree. At least I think most of us can agree on that.

    What I feel a need to say here is some comments are just plain stupid. These are the types of arguments that take the form – “My dad is bigger than your dad and will beat your dad up, so there”. In this instance substitute Doug ( I can’t bear to call an adult “Dougie) Hamilton for “my dad” and Griffin Reinhart for “your dad”.

    Reinhart is a bet and may excel or may not. The Oilers will move on and do what is needed to compete and improve. Time will tell.

    I am in full agreement with Asiaoil. Certainly posters should just be ignored, they sound most like a 5 year old in the playground. They should go home, get a snack and have a nap. Preferably until they are able to converse like an adult, or at least a 14 year old.

    It is so incredibly tiresome to wade through the constant “I’ll wagers” and the “book its”. The song never changes, and no, he is not always right. But even as a real noob here, I can tell you it definitely IS spoiling the value of and my enjoyment of this site , the incredible fun LT and so many smart, funny, witty and interesting other folks.

  164. bobinyvr says:

    I too was a bit taken aback by the trade at first, but I have become much more comfortable with it and the cost.

    Fans want to win now (or soon) and Reinhart is NHL ready now (or soon).
    A former captain and champion. A big bodied, minute muncher with high draft pedigree who has put in his time at the AHL is a good bet IMO.

    If the price is thought to be steep at #16 and #33 are there many fans who wouldn’t trade Paajarvi (10th) and Pitlick (31st) or Musil (31st) or Moroz (32nd) today for Reinhart?

  165. Pajamah says:

    frjohnk: It came out in March

    1. Sam Reinhart
    2. Sam Bennett
    3. Leon Draisaitl
    4. Nikolaj Ehlers
    5. Max Domi
    6. Anthony Mantha
    7. Darnell Nurse
    8. Andrei Vasilevskiy
    9. Teuvo Teravainen
    10. Dylan Larkin
    11. William Nylander
    12. Michael Dal Colle
    13. Griffin Reinhart

    Only 2 D in the top 13 and they both belong to the Oilers.

    That #3 on the list looks to be pretty damn good too.

    3 sure fire NHLers in Edmontons prospect list, potential for all 3 to be impact players, maybe elite players.

  166. Rip Fan Winkle says:

    Wouldn’t you always move a 16 and 33 for a 4? ‘Development’ issues for a 21 YO defenseman aside.

  167. Jaxon says:

    Rational Zealot,

    I feel like you have called me a liar in your response. Not cool. FYI, both The Hockey News list and the Hockeys Future list I quoted were spring / post season lists for 2015, not fall 2014.

    Hockey News Future Watch, *2015*
    Nurse (#7), Reinhart (#13), Morrisey (#18), Theodore (#20)

    Hockeys Future, Spring 2015 *Post Season* Rankings:
    Nurse (#6), Pouliot (#7), Reinhart (#14), Theodore (#17)
    http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect-rankings/postseason-prospect-rankings-2014-15/page/1

    And since you bring him up, Pronman has him at #18, 4th D.
    Corey Pronman’s January 15th, 2015 Top 50 NHL Prospects, top 4 D:
    Pouliot (#8), Nurse (#9), Morrisey (#13), Reinhart (#18).

    Pronman has Reinhart above all those guys.

    But, yes, we should definitely go with your “guys who watch” evidence. I feel “guys who watch” may be a lot less reliable than 3 publications whose sole purpose is to speak to real scouts around the league and get their professional feedback and look at statistical evidence in coming out with a list that they stake their professional reputations and livelihoods on. I don’t think they had an Islander/Reinhart bias when coming up with the lists. I never said he’s a sure thing. Everything I stated was factual. I said he’s in good company and I’d take that over the percentages (factual statistics of 15% & 13%) that come with a #16 pick and a #33 pick.

  168. Bruce McCurdy says:

    Woodguy: For the record I don’t hate the trade or the player, just wished they had filled a hole rather than adding to the abundance of LHD.

    Maybe he’ll trade from that abundance to fill the RHD hole now?

    I was long on the “draft McDavid and trade the rest to fill holes” train, it’s just when you get close to the draft you lose perspective a bit on the reality of developing kids and Oilers need to turn north during McDavid’s ELC.

    Anyhow, my two picks were Svechnikov and Meloche. I’m tempted to swap Roy with Meloche as he went at 31, but you cannot guarantee the Oilers would have traded up to get him.

    Svechnikov and Meloche.

    Let’s check back at the end of McDavid’s ELC (!) and see how they are doing.

    Sounds good. At least you put your money where your mouth is. I have to say I have short patience for those who say “we should have drafted Ty Rattie over David Musil” and then two years later go “Ty Who? We should have drafted Boone Jenner instead of David Musil.”

    Not that some didn’t identify Jenner (or Saad) right at the time, but a draft pick is not a multiple choice for the drafting team and it shouldn’t be for the hindsight crowd either.

    As for me I do not share the big worry about lefty-righty balance, with the exception of the powerplay where Reinhart will only be a bit player anyway. Otherwise I will take a good lefty on the wrong side over a less good righty every time. The smart ones (of which Griffin Reinhart is one) can learn how to handle it.

  169. Bruce McCurdy says:

    GCW_69: For the record, I wanted Chiarelli to trade the picks for an established top for defender.If he had offered Boston all of the Oilers draft picks after McDavid for Hamilton I would have been fine with it.If he had spent 16 + on Shattenkirk, Larsson, Ekman-Larson, or even Severson I would have been fine with it.

    It’s that he spent those assets on futures for their deepest position (LD) prospect wise, and didn’t even come away with a sure thing that pisses me off.

    I will take Barzal and, for fun, Blackwood.

    I’ve heard nothing — other than wishful thinking in comments sections — that suggests Larsson , OEL or Severson are remotely available, and nothing suggesting that a #16 plus other picks would have landed Shattenkirk, who despite some rumours remains a Blue. The Hamilton deal was a poison pill which I don’t hold against Chiarelli.

    Clearly the Oilers definition of a “sure thing” and yours are two different things. It’ll be interesting to see who’s right.

    As for Oilers’ deepest position prospect wise, it is “centre”, which is where Mathew Barzal plays.

  170. Jaxon says:

    Following some of Pronman’s opinions on Griffin Reinhart from draft to today. I’m sure some of us will read, Pronman thinks he’s a bust and some of us will read Pronman thinks he is a great prospect. I’ll leave that up to your readers. I am reading that he’s probable to become a 3-4D minute muncher that could do 2nd unit PP in a pinch. He still has him as a top prospect outside the NHL.

    Pronman prior to the June 2012 Entry Draft:
    15. Griffin Reinhart, Defense, Edmonton-WHL

    Reinhart is a very toolsy big defenseman who has progressed nicely over the last year and even since the start of the season. He looks like a legit offensive defenseman who is well above average skill-wise considering his 6’4″ frame. He’s a smart player who is able to be effective in all situations and has learnt how to make the most of his tools, rather than your usual big defenseman who at 17-18 typically are much more raw. Reinhart is above average with the puck, showing good poise, and is quite calm under pressure. What separates him from other big defensemen is that he has the puck skills to make people miss, execute all the little plays in tight quarters, and to deliver crisp, accurate passes consistently. Reinhart also has a more aggressive offensive element to his game as he will join the rush and doesn’t shy from being creative in the offensive end of the rink. He also has a pretty big shot from the point that he can put a lot of his big frame into. The thing that has seen Reinhart establish himself so well in the industry has been his improvements. He used to be a fringe skater but he really moves around better and his first few steps don’t look as heavy. He also used to be a little shy with his physical work and got the label of a timid big man. While he isn’t a crash and bang killer on the back end, he uses his body just fine now and I don’t have any reservations from projection a high-end physical game from him at the highest level.

    Ranking Explanation: This decision was a hard one as Reinhart and Lindholm are very close. Reinhart has better puck skills, better defensive hockey sense, and a better physical game. They are both equal puck movers and Lindholm is a much, much better skater. Reinhart has slightly better raw puck possession skills and a slightly better physical game, but the edge was closed considerably by the huge gap in skating ability. In a very close call, I went with the player who has better possession skills as I have more confidence in that translating at the next level in a position that already has development risk.
    http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/puck/article.php?articleid=1310

    Pronman, Jan 16, 2014:
    “Reinhart nearly made the Islanders’ NHL roster out of training camp this season, and likely will be a regular for them at this time next season. Reinhart is a big defender who skates well for his size, and couples that with high-end hockey sense. He doesn’t blow you away with a great package of skills, but he can move the puck and make a lot of defensive stops.”
    http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/insider/story/_/id/10287712/nhl-updated-top-50-drafted-prospects-2013-14

    Pronman Feb 18, 2014
    “The No. 4 overall pick in 2012 is a player I rated in the middle of the first round of that class, and I kept him rated as about that type of prospect until this season. The concerns I had about Reinhart were similar to those with Gudas, only differing in degrees. As a huge player who defended well and brought some offense to the ice, Reinhart was appealing, but I questioned if that made him an elite prospect.

    There are two issues with my evaluation of Reinhart that have become clear in hindsight. The first is that while I did correctly state he was smart defensively, I underrated how high-end he was in that regard. The second is that I graded him as a below-average skater, whereas I should have put him closer to average overall, which skews closer to “good” for a bigger player.

    I still don’t think he’ll ever play on a top power-play unit at the NHL level, but second-unit duty is certainly possible, along with heavy even-strength minutes.”
    http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/insider/story/_/id/10471565/nhl-players-exceeded-scouting-expectations

    Pronman on January 15, 2015, ranks him #18 overall prospect, #4D:
    “Big Griff has seen spot time in the NHL this season with the Isles, but is not yet ready for the top level for a regular shift. It’s probable that moment comes during the 2015-16 season. His hockey sense is elite, he’s so pin-point technically and with his positioning. He’s by no means an offensive wizard, but can move the puck well and get shots through.”
    http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/insider/story/_/id/12161713/william-nylander-tops-ranking-top-50-drafted-prospects-nhl

    Pronman on June 19, 2015:
    “I don’t think it’s that micro an issue in whether he’s big or not, but dmen generally take longer than forwards. He played very well when I saw Bridgeport this year. I don’t think he’s a blow you away elite prospect but he’s certainly a top-end one. Points don’t fully show his impact at that level because defense is a big part of his game. I think he’ll be an NHLer next year if the depth chart allows it.”
    http://islesbeat.com/2015/06/a-reality-check-on-griffin-reinhart/

    Pronman post draft, 2015:
    “Griffin Reinhart should not have been a fourth overall pick, but he is a great prospect who looked very good in the AHL this season. He’s a big D who moves well for a player his size, has elite hockey IQ and can move a puck. He’s just not a top-end offensive talent and never has been. He remains a top-30 to -45 prospect outside the NHL though and is a huge boost to the Oilers system.”
    http://www.espn.co.uk/blog/craig-custance/insider/post?id=6148

  171. A Quick Thought on Griffin Reinhart - The Oilers Rig - The Oilers Rig says:

    […] with me on this, Edmonton overpaid for Reinhart’s services. Whether it be our friend Lowetide, myself or a random twitter commenter, many agree that the price was simply too […]

  172. OilBomber says:

    Count me as someone who thinks the Oilers paid too much for Reinhart but that he should be an effective player. Making the transaction look worse is that Boston gave Hamilton away.

    Having said that, what are your thoughts on the following:

    1. Isn’t getting a top 5 pick in the draft for a first and second round pick reasonable?
    2. Is the main stumbling block to the Reinhart trade the fact that he is developing / being developed more slowly?
    3. I simply can’t believe that the return for Hamilton can’t be taken at face value. A major motivator in that trade had to have been spite. Current Boston management wanted to make Chiarelli’s life miserable, and trading Chara’s heir apparent did that. Even if it made their (sure to be short) tenure more difficult.

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