TIME HAS COME TODAY

The Edmonton Oilers chose Jujhar Khaira No. 63 overall in 2012 and he turned pro in the fall of 2014. The Oilers, as is their tradition, brought him along slowly. Edmonton’s CHL kids have been handled that way during the Oklahoma swing and the results have been poor. Did the team learn anything from the struggles of Tyler Pitlick, Curtis Hamilton and Ryan Martindale? No.

BARONS CENTERS 2014-15

barons centers in 2014-15The Oilers have a couple of nice young centers who spent time in OKC this year. Anton Lander finally punched his NHL ticket in January and is being counted on at the NHL level in 2015-16. Bogdan Yakimov saw a spike in his TOI (these totals are via Eric Rodgers, who published them today at Tend the Farm) after Lander’s recall, that information via Eric Rodgers on twitter and Tend the Farm.

Khaira didn’t play much and part of that very likely has to do with being offensively challenged. I think the scouting department grabbed a player who is shy offensively (Edmonton does this a lot, or did under Stu MacGregor) but if you’re going to draft and sign these men then for crying out loud play them. Travis Ewanyk was a terrific junior player and has a lot of uses, but he needs to score more in order to have a pro career. He’s in Ottawa now, it’ll be interesting to see if the Senators can Condra him and find a way to make it work.

I’d say two of the four draft picks got enough work, it would have been better if Yakimov received those bigger minutes earlier in the season and we hope for more at-bats next year.

BARONS LEFT WINGERS 2014-15

barons left wings in 2014-15Fascinating look at the port side here. First, the best 20-year old isn’t the second round pick, it’s the undrafted free agent and they STILL didn’t give him enough ice time. Come on Oilers, give yourselves a chance to succeed here! Ryan Hamilton played an absolute shit-ton and there should be arrests based on it. Curtis Hamilton finally managed a solid year and got substantial playing time, something that might have come in handy a couple of years ago. Kale Kessy shows pretty well here, that’s a guy we should be watching during training camp.

Kellen Jones is a 2010 draft pick who isn’t likely to play in the NHL but the man has a lot of pluck. I saw him good and heard him good in OKC (Jim Byers description of the Jones boys on the PK created quite a picture). Mitch Moroz needs more playing time, this estimate from Rodgers is probably very accurate and ridiculous if true. PLAY the people you draft and sign, Oilers!

BARONS RIGHT WINGERS 2014-15

barons right wings in 2014-15There’s not much to complain about here, Matt Ford played up and down the lineup (he was third line quite a bit), plus Miller might be the closest to NHL-ready among all of the remaining forwards from last year’s team. Tyler Pitlick looks to have made it if he can stay healthy, but Iiro Pakarinen is right there in case he falters. Jackson Houck is no longer in the organization, actually never was, Edmonton drafted but did not sign the prospect.

BARONS DEFENSEMEN 2014-15

oilers defense in 2014-15Joey Laleggia didn’t play much but was a feature addition at the end of his college career. Remember these are all TOI estimates so the young Laleggia was probably getting a major power-play push. The same can be said for Brad Hunt, but anyone who saw or listened to the broadcasts can tell you he was out there for major minutes in most games he played in OKC.

Oscar Klefbom was bona fide and should have been in the NHL all last season, and Brandon Davidson was the best actual defenseman on the Barons all last season. Among Jordan Oesterle, Dillon Simpson and David Musil I’m not sure who will end up having the best NHL career, but I’ll bet on one of them to have a substantial run in the world’s best league.

CONCLUSION

The AHL rookies didn’t play enough, and that’s an issue for sure. If we take a look at Rodgers’ estimated ice times for newcomers this past season, it’s pretty obvious Edmonton can’t find a spot for most 20-year olds:

  • Bogdan Yakimov 15:48 at age 20 (he had a birthday early in the season).
  • Josh Winquist 12:29 at age 20.
  • Jujhar Khaira 11:06 at age 20.
  • Mitch Moroz 8:49 at age 20.

Since 2010 and the beginning of the Barons run, their 20-year olds have included Teemu Hartikainen and Phil Cornet (2010), Anton Lander, Tyler Pitlick, Curtis Hamilton and Ryan Martindale (2011), Martin Marincin (2012), Oscar Klefbom, Martin Gernat, Travis Ewanyk, David Musil and Kale Kessy (2013).

I think there may be a disconnect here between CHL 20-year olds and how much they play in their year one in the organization. They appear to be behind players like Hartikainen and Yakimov and get the squeeze. As our friend Supernova has been showing in his looks at other teams, this appears to be somewhat unique to Edmonton’s system. They need to fix this.

 

 

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44 Responses to "TIME HAS COME TODAY"

  1. leadfarmer says:

    It’s unique to the Oilers system because of the low quality of forward picks. Outside of Lander, choose another player that has a chance to be a 3rd liner or better. Yakimov, and that’s it. The depth chart is full of guys who may become 4th liners at best. If when the better prospects arrive and this is still an issue then we have a right to complain. Notice the d prospects are good enough that the spots aren’t filled with Ahl veterans. Sure you need ice time to grow, but sometimes getting pounded every night and having every mistake end up in your net isn’t the best thing for development, please see the Edmonton oilers as an example.

  2. Lowetide says:

    leadfarmer:
    It’s unique to the Oilers system because of the low quality of forward picks.Outside of Lander, choose another player that has a chance to be a 3rd liner or better.Yakimov, and that’s it.The depth chart is full of guys who may become 4th liners at best.If when the better prospects arrive and this is still an issue then we have a right to complain.Notice the d prospects are good enough that the spots aren’t filled with Ahl veterans.Sure you need ice time to grow, but sometimes getting pounded every night and having every mistake end up in your net isn’t the best thing for development, please see the Edmonton oilers as an example.

    The idea that Edmonton can’t develop skill forwards in the AHL for trade (or recall) is crazy. They HAVEN’T developed them because they haven’t developed them.

  3. Drew says:

    Lowetide,

    Looking through those time on ice numbers certainly does highlight the fact that OKC was overplaying veterans at the expense of development. I believe that to get the best development (I have no numbers to back this up) young players need to have some experienced quality veterans mixed into the line up to support them in their various roles (having a batter protected in a baseball lineup and seeing a good variety of pitches).

    Looks like Todd Nelson was stacking the lineup to get himself into the NHL versus his young players. I am not completely critical of this as the oilers were not doing him any favours throughout the years.
    I have taken mild umbrage with Woodguy’s very strong position on this topic in some of his past writings in this regard but it feels like he is pretty close to the money – Oilers have misplayed this.

    Oh yea, for Verdad 2.0 in the last thread we gotta get OEL or we will face the full force of the coming zombie apocalypse, plus plague, and other mass events of destruction – please trade the entire team and all future draft picks to get the cure into the lineup, no matter what the cost!!!

    I feel better.

  4. flyfish1168 says:

    Nice article LT. I to believe our young prospect has to be played and if mistakes happens it happens and you move on and learn from it. unfortunately the 1st overall does not have this luxury. They are thrown into the spotlight and needs coverage. Most are drafted because of their offense and not their defense. You can’t sit them on the bench and expect them to learn, ice time for these players are just as important. Tyler, Jordan and Ryan had Horcoff help shelter them. Jordan was older so probably needed a little less. Nail needed help on ice and off and didn’t get much what a shame. Mismanaged goods is Nail. Conner is special but probably still needs sheltering until he gets up to speed and some man strength.

    This could be an interesting article on how to develop 1st overall in the NHL or draft year players that make the NHL without any time in the AHL. JMHO

  5. Cobbler says:

    I appreciate and agree with the idea that drafted players should get favourable and supportive ice time in the AHL, but i wonder what balance of veterans and associated ice time is optimal.

    Is it best to have prospects get favourable ice time in a development league at the cost of winning?

    Is there a correlation between winning AHL franchises and prospect success?

    Is there a correlation between ice time for later round (3-7) draft picks and prospect success?

    I don’t follow the other teams close enough to have a good feeling for this.

  6. fifthcartel says:

    Lowetide: The idea that Edmonton can’t develop skill forwards in the AHL for trade (or recall) is crazy. They HAVEN’T developed them because they haven’t developed them.

    I agree, and it’s frustrating because this is one of the things they’re missing out on by blocking the prospects ice time with older, AHL veterans.

    It doesn’t mean the prospects will be successful at the NHL level, but if you develop skill forwards in the AHL these become chips to use in trades. The Kings got a 2nd for Linden Vey, and also traded Nicolas Deslauriers plus a college player for Brayden McNabb and 2 2nds. Y

    You’re not going to be able to use any of these players for value in trades if they’re getting 12 minutes of ice time and putting up 14 points a season.

  7. Lowetide says:

    fifthcartel: I agree, and it’s frustrating because this is one of thethings they’re missing out on by blocking the prospects ice time with older, AHL veterans.

    It doesn’t mean the prospects will be successful at the NHL level, but if you develop skill forwards in the AHL these become chips to use in trades. The Kings got a 2nd for Linden Vey, and also traded Nicolas Deslauriers plus a college player for Brayden McNabb and 2 2nds. Y

    You’re not going to be able to use any of these players for value in trades if they’re getting 12 minutes of ice time and putting up 14 points a season.

    Plus they ARE developing players, but they’re college kids like Arcobello and Miller. The draft picks from the CHL die on the vine, or so it appears.

  8. Stelio Kontos (Formerly Zangetsu-Formerly Thinker) says:

    Lowetide,

    I support Leadfarmer here. I think the way that people have been looking at this is flawed. The more 20 year olds in your top six, the better the prospects. The oilers best forward prospects have been marginal players or in Europe. Nobody you guys are fighting for are worth a damn. In fact, I would argue that they are trying to groom the Moroz’s of the world for their NHL roles. Inquest is a garbage signing. A player who you pick up because he might develop into something in a few years. He has to earn every second he gets. The defence have been given fair playing time. This is much ado about nothing.This is the same logic as playing Shultz 20min a night to develop, but at a lower level. It just doesn’t work like that.

    Playing a plug like moroz prime minutes will just hurt the development of the other players around him. Players who have demonstrated value have found minutes. Yakimov, Nurse, Klefbom, Laleggia, Davidson, miller. While players like Gernat get buried. They were all good young players, this is where the real games start, nothing is given.

    I also think that you are missing a big point which is practices and workouts. Games are a small slice of the season. I’m not saying don’t play your prospects, but they are only as ready as they prove to be. If you don’t have anyone who is a quality 1st RW in the AHL, you sign a vet so your 20 year old rookie isn’t overwhelmed. I think we all know that a guy like willliams would disappear from the roster pretty quick if there was pressure from a rookie. What makes you think either of these guys are demonstably better than mitch holmberg? IMO they are lucky to not be in the ECHL.

  9. Lowetide says:

    Stelio Kontos (Formerly Zangetsu-Formerly Thinker):
    Lowetide,

    I support Leadfarmer here. I think the way that people have been looking at this is flawed. The more 20 year olds in your top six, the better the prospects. The oilers best forward prospects have been marginal players or in Europe. Nobody you guys are fighting for are worth a damn. In fact, I would argue that they are trying to groom the Moroz’s of the world for their NHL roles. Inquest is a garbage signing. A player who you pick up because he might develop into something in a few years. He has to earn every second he gets. The defence have been given fair playing time. This is much ado about nothing.This is the same logic as playing Shultz 20min a night to develop, but at a lower level. It just doesn’t work like that.

    Playing a plug like moroz prime minutes will just hurt the development of the other players around him. Players who have demonstrated value have found minutes. Yakimov, Nurse, Klefbom, Laleggia, Davidson, miller. While players like Gernat get buried. They were all good young players, this is where the real games start, nothing is given.

    I also think that you are missing a big point which is practices and workouts. Games are a small slice of the season. I’m not saying don’t play your prospects, but they are only as ready as they prove to be. If you don’t have anyone who is a quality 1st RW in the AHL, you sign a vet so your 20 year old rookie isn’t overwhelmed. I think we all know that a guy like willliams would disappear from the roster pretty quick if there was pressure from a rookie. What makes you think either of these guys are demonstably better than mitch holmberg? IMO they are lucky to not be in the ECHL.

    There’s so much in this post, but I’d like to focus on one thing. Can you agree that Josh Winquist earned more playing time, over someone like Ryan Hamilton?

  10. Stelio Kontos (Formerly Zangetsu-Formerly Thinker) says:

    Lowetide,

    Not Ryan Hamilton, but likely curtis, Kessy and Jones. Though curtis needed time as it was his last shot, and the other two are too close to call with the estimate. I think the estimate also inflates the better players, as those who scored more played more. Not necessarily the case when you have legit prospects like lander and guys like Jones who are lucky to still be playing hockey. Not to mention this is taken over the season, and I don’t know how ice time varied over the course of time other than hyperbole like with Yakimov.

  11. Really? says:

    The Oilers seem to be conflicted as to what the purpose of a farm team is.

    From many of the stats above, it appears that the Oilers goal is to have a winning AHL franchise.

    Many of the more successful NHL teams have adopted the approach that the farm team is there to act as a crucible in which they develop world class talent for the parent NHL team.

    Hopefully Nicholson and Chiarelli decide on development rather than winning as the farm team focus. This will give the Oilers a chance to focus on winning rather than development …. finally.

  12. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Lowetide: There’s so much in this post, but I’d like to focus on one thing. Can you agree that Josh Winquist earned more playing time, over someone like Ryan Hamilton?

    The really interesting thing about Winquist is how much better he was handled than say Moroz (which isn’t to say he was handled perfectly — I agree with LT, he should have been given more TOI in the AHL and signed).

    Winquist was placed in the ECHL to start the year. Out of the sights of everyone, he killed it.

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=26421

    23 points in 18 games of pro hockey.

    They called him up. Gave him an AHL sweater for the rest of the year.

    Davidson cut a similar path. Started in the ECHL and burned the barn down.

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=45525

    12 points in 11 games.

    It seems the more fringe a prospect you are (Winquist, Davidson, Miller, Arco, etc.) the more attention you get from the Oilers management and coaching staff.

    You start at an low expected level, get given a shot at besting that level and get rewarded if you do. Your opportunities track with your performance and abilities.

    Moroz, Pitlick, etc. all the opposite. Given a free pass to the hard life of the AHL (must be draft pedigree related) but then left to wither without direction.

  13. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    The thing is… prospects, if you’re going to bother having them… have to play the game.

    That means, play them in the AHL, up stream, lots of minutes and special teams.

    If they lose control, or seem like they aren’t ready, you don’t cut back their minutes. You cut back the level of competition. You put them in the ECHL.

    There’s nothing wrong with sending Moroz (for example) down to the ECHL for 20 games to see if he can handle big minutes of pro hockey.

  14. leadfarmer says:

    Really?,

    The last regime wanted to show the prospects how to win because the big club wasn’t getting it done, but in the meantime the big club needed all good prospects up right away so the Ahl team was filled with a good chunk of poor prospects at forward and since the good prospects were in the NHL they had to fill their spots with vets.

  15. Lowetide says:

    Romulus Apotheosis
    Moroz, Pitlick, etc. all the opposite. Given a free pass to the hard life of the AHL (must be draft pedigree related) but then left to wither without direction.

    Great point.

  16. sliderule says:

    The answer is why Stu was let go.

    The drafted forwards and defence couldn’t get ice time because they were not good enough.

    The coaches have a dual responsibility to develop players and have a winning program.

    Nelson would have loved to have the oilers picks succeed but if they don’t show anything a coach can’t just keep throwing them out .

    A player like Yakimov got his chance and even though he was young for AHL in his draft plus 2 year he produced.Players like Pitlick and Moroz just couldn’t take advantage of their ice time when they arrived in AHL.

    Draft better and the AHL team will graduate good prospects.

  17. Lowetide says:

    sliderule:
    The answer is why Stu was let go.

    The drafted forwards and defence couldn’t get ice time because they were not good enough.

    The coaches have a dual responsibility to develop players and have a winning program.

    Nelson would have loved to have the oilers picks succeed but if they don’t show anything a coach can’t just keep throwing them out .

    A player like Yakimov got his chance and even though he was young for AHL in his draft plus 2 year he produced.Players like Pitlick and Moroz just couldn’t take advantage of their ice timewhen they arrived in AHL.

    Draft better and the AHL team will graduate good prospects.

    And yet Tobias Rieder thrives. I don’t think that’s all of it, although the Oilers did draft offensively challenged prospects through MacGregor’s time.

  18. Spoils says:

    Reinhart, Nurse, Yakimov, Draisaitl… pretty interesting team.

  19. sliderule says:

    Lowetide,

    Please don’t get me started on Rieder as he should still be an oiler.

    He was about the only later round draft pick who can score goals.

    I read somewhere if you look at most good team bottom six players they were damn good junior scorers.

  20. rickithebear says:

    Up till now I thought playing Yakimov and Khaira with Moroz and Ewanyk was the Oil king test of a players metal!

    But since we traded Ewanyk.
    Who are we going to test our young centers metal with?

  21. rickithebear says:

    Lowetide: lthough the Oilers did draft offensively challenged prospects through MacGregor’s time.

    2013
    Yakimov
    Slepyshev
    Platter
    Muir
    Campbell
    Chase

    Knock, Knock
    who is it?
    Bull s………….

  22. Lois Lowe says:

    I don’t understand how this post fails to mention Todd Nelson’s role in how ice time was allocated. How could such a coaching savant make such choices?

    He seems to get credit for the successes…

  23. Lowetide says:

    rickithebear: 2013
    Yakimov
    Slepyshev
    Platter
    Muir
    Campbell
    Chase

    Knock, Knock
    who is it?
    Bull s………….

    Come on. 2008-14 featured some suspect offensive bets in very good draft spots. I’m a MacGregor guy but he was fishing for need and cheating on offense to do it.

  24. Lowetide says:

    Lois Lowe:
    I don’t understand how this post fails to mention Todd Nelson’s role in how ice time is allocated. How could such a coaching savant make such choices?

    I didn’t mention it because we don’t know if this is coach or team driven. I suspect team, although will give some credit to MacT who seems to have changed things a little.

  25. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Lois Lowe:
    I don’t understand how this post fails to mention Todd Nelson’s role in how ice time is allocated. How could such a coaching savant make such choices?

    I think the answer is the standard: “coaches coach to win” and since we have a pretty good sense that the Oilers saw winning and “a winning culture” as vital to prospect development, I think it’s fair to say Nelson was given the green light to play to win.

  26. blackadder says:

    I suspect the use of veterans was also related to a commitment to have a successful AHL franchise in OKC. They needed to sell seats and the easiest way to do that is with a winning team and playoff games.

  27. godot10 says:

    Todd Nelson, arguably, put more players into the NHL in his 5-year run in OKC than in any other 5-year span in OIlers history.

    Basically, every 2nd rounder (5-years post draft) except Curtis Hamilton is on track for 100 NHL games or more. Jeff Petry, Colin McDonald, Taylor Chorney, Anton Lander, Tyler Pitlick, Martin Marincin.
    (David Musil is still fully tracking from 2011).

    Magnus Paajarvi. Chris Vandevelde, Marc Arcobello

    Late draft picks and free agents who became elite AHL’ers…Teemu Hartikainen, Linus Omark, Brad Hunt, Brandon Davidson, Tony Rajala, Taylor Fedun

    That record is unmatched in Oiler history.

  28. kelvjn says:

    There is a 50 men list so you can only draft and sign so many junior players. Even if you stockpile draft picks (like oilers did in the MacT 1for5), you are unlikely be able to sign them all (drafted players can only sign nhl/ahl entry-level deals).

    At any one time your nhl + ahl roster need at least 23 + 23 players, plus whoever else on IR. That 50 men list ideally has 2 spots open for waivers claims, etc.

    The math works out that ahl only contracts to non-drafted players be a necessity.

    The question becomes who to sign to fill out the ahl roster.

    The options are:
    -Good ahl veterans or NHL cast-offs (Jason Williams, Steve P )
    -Average career ahler
    – college free agents
    -undrafted junior players
    -european

    The first two groups are a dime a dozen and there is always someone looking for work. The difference being the good ahl players is often very close in quality to a fringe nhl player, so in a pinch may help the big club incase of injury crisis

    To lower the average age of the ahl squad a team has to focus on the later two groups. Getting undrafted as a 18/19 year old does not mean they can’t be good players (the opposite is true that not every highly rated 18 years old turns out as even a 2nd round pick has <30% chance playing 100nhl games). However, quality college free agent (Osterle, etc) and undrafted junior players (quality undrafted junior players seem like an oxymoron, think Leveille who is not good enough of a bet to tie down a contract spot, but perfectly ok for ahl only deal) are sought after by many teams.

    The real question begin when there aren't enough quality college free agents or good undrafted overage CHL players or good Euro free agents to fill the ahl roster, what kind of players would you sign? Would you rather have meh free agents, average ahler, or good ahl players in your team?

    Whatever the composition of the ahl team, once the season started the best player should play. Period. How they get in the team should not matter, just like draft prodigies counts for nothing once the entry-level contract is signed (the difference between 2nd and 7th rounder's chance of playing 100 games is less than 10%).

    The idea is to present your organization as a fair place where players can earn their minutes, because perceived bias to any particular group will hinder your team'a ability to sign free agents or your own lower round draft picks out performing their draft positions (leggia etc).

  29. Soup Fascist says:

    Gerry Fleming lost me when he brought in his 40 year old buddy David Ling in last year from the ECHL and gifted him a role in the top 6 while the young prospects languished with 4th line minutes.

    David “F’ing” Ling.

    Nice development plan.

    The Oilers have lost focus on developing young players. I am hopeful the new regime straightens this issue out.

  30. commonfan14 says:

    Lowetide: The idea that Edmonton can’t develop skill forwards in the AHL for trade (or recall) is crazy. They HAVEN’T developed them because they haven’t developed them.

    Sorry folks, but this just simply isn’t true.

    I know this because I have it on good authority from hockey experts the world over and from many posters on this very blog that “No player has ever been hurt by spending time in the minors.”

    All our prospects are therefore benefitting from their time in the AHL, no matter how they’re being handled.

    Or maybe it’s just possible that hard and fast sayings like that are almost always BS…

  31. SwedishPoster says:

    You can’t really have a team where certain players have to get ice time no matter what, that won’t create a very good environment on the team. And nothing kills development like a toxic locker room. I’ve been on such teams, creating that kind of situation will not do us any favours.
    If Ryan Hamilton is on the roster and outplays Moroz he has to get more ice time. The issue is that we have had too many Hamiltons and Fords on the roster, not that they get the ice time they deserve once the season starts.

    In the case of Moroz and others that might struggle with ice time they need to use the ECHL. Not just gift Moroz Hamiltons ice time, that wouldn’t sit well with the rest of the team, trust me.

    And how do you decide who should get the ice time? Draft pedigree? That’s stupid. Draft pedigree should stop matter for the individual player the day after the draft. Age? The younger you are, the more ice time you get? That’s silly as well, as that would mean a lesser 20 year old would get more ice time than a actual prospect who’s 23.

    What you could do, outside of avoiding signing so many vets, is spread the ice time more evenly during the first half of the season, roll 4 lines and three D pairings, and if a player hasn’t grabbed the opportunity by then well tough luck.
    The problem then is guys like Nurse, who ideally should get massive ice time in all situations.

    No play them on merit. Don’t sign more than the occasional vet, ideally a guy who’s a fringe NHLer and can add depth to the big team. Play the guys who deserve it, if a younger player can’t cut it send him down.

  32. supernova says:

    leadfarmer:
    It’s unique to the Oilers system because of the low quality of forward picks.Outside of Lander, choose another player that has a chance to be a 3rd liner or better.Yakimov, and that’s it.The depth chart is full of guys who may become 4th liners at best.If when the better prospects arrive and this is still an issue then we have a right to complain.Notice the d prospects are good enough that the spots aren’t filled with Ahl veterans.Sure you need ice time to grow, but sometimes getting pounded every night and having every mistake end up in your net isn’t the best thing for development, please see the Edmonton oilers as an example.

    leadfarmer,

    Stelio Kontos (Formerly Zangetsu-Formerly Thinker),

    Even if we agree that the forward draft picks are underwhelming it still doesn’t excuse other avenues of player procurement and then so many veteran forwards to take up Ice time.

    We have College FA, Europe and CHL FA.
    Other teams have signed these type of players and had success with them.
    Oilers rely on Veteran minor leaguers.
    I haven’t been saying “gift” minutes to draft picks.

    I have been saying only hire 19-23 year olds at forward, Maybe the odd veteran.

    Then have them compete against each other draft pick or not.

  33. oilswell says:

    leadfarmer:
    It’s unique to the Oilers system because of the low quality of forward picks.Outside of Lander, choose another player that has a chance to be a 3rd liner or better.Yakimov, and that’s it.The depth chart is full of guys who may become 4th liners at best.If when the better prospects arrive and this is still an issue then we have a right to complain.Notice the d prospects are good enough that the spots aren’t filled with Ahl veterans.Sure you need ice time to grow, but sometimes getting pounded every night and having every mistake end up in your net isn’t the best thing for development, please see the Edmonton oilers as an example.

    leadfarmer:
    It’s unique to the Oilers system because of the low quality of forward picks.Outside of Lander, choose another player that has a chance to be a 3rd liner or better.Yakimov, and that’s it.The depth chart is full of guys who may become 4th liners at best.If when the better prospects arrive and this is still an issue then we have a right to complain.Notice the d prospects are good enough that the spots aren’t filled with Ahl veterans.Sure you need ice time to grow, but sometimes getting pounded every night and having every mistake end up in your net isn’t the best thing for development, please see the Edmonton oilers as an example.

    Yes, I think there is a lot of begging the question going on around this topic. Lord knows the Oilers are unlikely to be the ideal team to develop prospects (I think their record on goalies may be criminal in 75 countries), but the evidence that the problem is that they don’t give free ice time to prospects is not very strong.

    Lander got ice time and is a success story. Miller is given the at bats needed to Arcobello him into NHL contention. Yakimov comes over to north America and is gradually given more ice time and traced a promising development arc. I guess Kellen Jones doesn’t count as development because he isn’t the community’s darling nor drafted high? Is it just Moroz we should be really up in arms about ? Moroz?

    How are we so sure that this level if ice time is not the best for him right now? I have yet to hear a clear argument against it–apologies in advance if I haven’t paid enough attention. I get that ice time is critical, really do. I just also happen to believe a prospect can drown and the job of the developing team is to find the right ice time and I do not know how to evaluate the appropriateness of the allocations to these prospects.

    Other than it looks about right for some of them.

  34. Lowetide says:

    SwedishPoster:

    No play them on merit. Don’t sign more than the occasional vet, ideally a guy who’s a fringe NHLer and can add depth to the big team. Play the guys who deserve it, if a younger player can’t cut it send him down.

    Which brings us to Winquist. There’s NO value in giving Ryan Hamilton all those minutes and not giving them to Winquist. And not playing Moroz makes no sense either. Play the prospects you’ve drafted and signed because if you don’t it’s a clear sign the organization is addled.

  35. oilswell says:

    Drew: Looks like Todd Nelson was stacking the lineup to get himself into the NHL versus his young players. I am not completely critical of this as the oilers were not doing him any favours throughout the year

    That doesn’t seem right, I heard he was a good development coach and put guys like Lander Yakupov in a position to succeed.

    Edit: maybe the Oilers told Nelson to sit 2nd rounder Moroz?

  36. oilswell says:

    Lowetide: And not playing Moroz makes no sense either. Play the prospects you’ve drafted and signed because if you don’t it’s a clear sign the organization is addled.

    Ducks draft and develop well. Does anyone know enough about Joseph Cramerossa to compare how he was handled better than Moroz?

  37. kelvjn says:

    Lowetide,

    The value is in preserving fairness by giving icetime to BPA so any player can Macrobello their way to the top line and big club.

    One may argue the mistake is in signing R.Hamilton in the first place, but not playing him more minutes when he is the best player available on the team. Remember, R.Hamilton was a ex-Marlie signed for his nhl upside (a la Accton) and he played the odd nhl game at replacement level. If you can sign a left wing version of Iiro I can’t see why he can’t bump down R.Hamilton for icetime. As it turns out, neither C.Hamilton, Jones, nor Moroz is good enough for that.

    That said, does the left wing ice time split has to be 21/16/13/12/12/8? Probably not. Does it really make a big difference at 18/17/14/13/13/10? I don’t know.

  38. Stelio Kontos (Formerly Zangetsu-Formerly Thinker) says:

    supernova,

    The 50 man throws a bit of a wrench in that plan, especially if you want to maintain flexibility. It is hard to find a college UFA who will sign AHL only. You can get underrated CHLers, but they aren’t going to be keeping others in their proper spot in the rotation. Really the solution is to bridge with AHL vets. Ideally they are 4th line types, but that simply hasn’t been possible with the oilers weak forward prospects. That’s not entirely fair, but that does apply to some of our high profile picks. If they can’t push their way past some of these flawed vets, then lack of ice time or not, they aren’t worth a tinkers damn.

  39. Woodguy says:

    I think the thing a lot of people are missing is that:

    A marginal AHLer at 27ish is better than most mid-level prospects at 20. They just are. Age, experience etc.

    The coach is going to play the best players. Full stop.

    In order to get ALL the kids to develop the NHL team has to not load it up with vet options for the coach at all the heavy TOI positions.

    This is on the org, not the coaches.

    If the prospect isn’t good enough to get significant ice time on an AHL not loaded with vets, then send them to the ECHL.

    Players need to play to develop.

    Watching the team win from the bench doesn’t do shit.

  40. Woodguy says:

    Also,

    I agree with the notion that “winning” was a priority in OKC in order to try to make the team viable.

    Now that their AHL team is in a city that averaged over double OKC’s attendance for their ECHL team it should not be a priority anymore.

    Bakersfield is going to support the Condors in a great way.

  41. SwedishPoster says:

    Swedens U20 team is in Lake Placid for the annual friendlies against US and Finland. Last night Sweden played USA White and won 5-2. Alex Tuch was taking runs at the swedes and William Lagesson decided that enough was enough and got into a minor fight with 2+2 mins each as the result.
    Things calmed down after that. The coaches seem to hold Lagesson in high regard as a defensive defenseman. Gets good reviews all around. His teammates love him.
    Caleb Jones played for US and made a mistake on one of the goals against but overall had pretty good showing.
    Didn’t see the game myself but this is what I’ve been able to gather.

  42. Lowetide says:

    SwedishPoster:
    Swedens U20 team is in Lake Placid for the annual friendlies against US and Finland. Last night Sweden played USA White and won 5-2. Alex Tuch was taking runs at the swedes and William Lagesson decided that enough was enough and got into a minor fight with 2+2 mins each as the result.
    Things calmed down after that. The coaches seem to hold Lagesson in high regard as a defensive defenseman. Gets good reviews all around. His teammates love him.
    Caleb Jones played for US and made a mistake on one of the goals against but overall had pretty good showing.
    Didn’t see the game myself but this is what I’ve been able to gather.

    Thanks for this, I was scouting around and didn’t find a thing. Appreciated!

  43. Bank Shot says:

    I think the crux of this debate comes down to nature vs nurture. Are good players drafted and improve on their own, or do external factors play a bigger role in things.

    I think we were on the right path when we were condemning the picking of Coke machines rather than criticizing the org for not playing said coke machines enough.

    Khaira, Martindale, Pitlick, Hamilton, Moroz, Roy Etc. None of these guys were ever the leading scorer on their junior teams. Most were no better than the 4th best option. It’s no wonder they are not scoring at the AHL level.

    The biggest issue is just lack of quality forward prospects in the system. Hell, they played Rajala when they had him and he put up a pile of points in a feature role.

    You don’t see Detroit fans complaining that the Detroit org ruined the careers of Aubry, Callahan and Parkes. Prospects generally get what they deserve at the pro level, and frankly I don’t see any Oilers prospects that are deserving of playing up the lineup in the last couple of years.

    Don’t hold your breath for it to get better any time soon. Two drafts in a row with no 2nd or 3rd rounders. After the current slug of Yakimov, Slepysehv, and Platzer we are looking at 3 years minimum before the farm team has any good young forwards.

  44. supernova says:

    Stelio Kontos (Formerly Zangetsu-Formerly Thinker):
    supernova,

    The 50 man throws a bit of a wrench in that plan, especially if you want to maintain flexibility. It is hard to find a college UFA who will sign AHL only. You can get underrated CHLers, but they aren’t going to be keeping others in their proper spot in the rotation. Really the solution is to bridge with AHL vets. Ideally they are 4th line types, but that simply hasn’t been possible with the oilers weak forward prospects. That’s not entirely fair, but that does apply to some of our high profile picks. If they can’t push their way past some of these flawed vets, then lack of ice time or not, they aren’t worth a tinkers damn.

    Stelio Kontos (Formerly Zangetsu-Formerly Thinker),

    Well yes and no in regards to the 50 man.
    I continually look at the 50 man and I believe the Oilers don’t correctly use the 50 man.

    I do get what you are saying that it is hard to get proper CHL players not signed to a NHL deal, but I do think their are far more available to sign the AHL/ECHL deal then we know.

    Same with college FA.

    Europe FA might be a little different.

    Typically we will hear in the spring about College players signing with NHL organizations some with NHL contracts some with minor league contracts. Almost always stated the main reason they sign with the organization is they have shown a track record of playing a similar type of FA. The second reason is they also have developed someone similar to them.

    So they will sign if you
    1) play them
    2) develop them

    In fact the Oilers have had some success with this type of player on a minor league deal.
    Why haven’t they explored it more?

    CHL players on minor league deals.
    Players are far more willing to do this then ever before but again with a organization with a history of playing them and developing them.

    Another part of the 50 man is making tough calls on players.

    Currently on the Oilers 50 man I would have tried to find away out of.;
    Gernat
    Hunt
    Hamilton
    And one of Ference & Nikitin.

    I believe Oilers currently have 47 contracts signed. lop off 4 and replace them with college, CHL or Euro FA and your development system looks majorly different,

    I also believe in leaving space on the 50 man for that waiver type player that seems to hit every season. The 13/14 NHL forward type guy. The Klinkhammer comtract.

    This is only a one year look but if this ELC’s or FA deals are 2 or 3 year deals depending on age, and you keep cycling them through and making tough calls at the end of the deal. I can almost guarantee your system will produce more depth.

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