NUGE JACK CITY

Timing is everything. One year ago, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins was coming off a strong season personally and things were looking up for the modern Keon.

RYAN NUGENT-HOPKINS 14-15

  • 5×5 points per 60: 2.01 (3rd among regular forwards)
  • 5×4 points per 60: 3.62 (5th among regular forwards)
  • Corsi for % 5×5:  50.0
  • Qual Comp: toughest among regular forwards (1st line opp)
  • Qual Team: best teammates among regular forwards (1st line teammates)
  • Corsi Rel: 6.5
  • Shots on goal/percentage: 178/10.7% (4th among F’s>100 shots)
  • Boxcars: 76, 24-32-56

Nuge was playing tough minutes, scored well at evens and was productive with linemates Jordan Eberle and Taylor Hall (with Benoit Pouliot replacing Hall as needed). This past season was not a good one, Nuge was ill and injured and was not as productive with linemates Jordan Eberle and Taylor Hall (with Benoit Pouliot replacing Hall as needed).

RYAN NUGENT-HOPKINS 15-16

  • 5×5 points per 60: 1.36 (7th among regular forwards)
  • 5×4 points per 60: 4.84 (2nd among regular forwards)
  • Corsi for % 5×5:  47.9
  • Qual Comp: 2nd toughest among regular forwards (1st line opp)
  • Qual Team: 7th best among regular forwards (3rd line teammates)
  • Corsi Rel: -0.5
  • Shots on goal/percentage: 108/11.1
  • Boxcars: 55, 12-22-34

I wonder if Nuge had posted last year’s numbers, would he have been traded by now? RNH is still here, I believe at least partly because the season just past is the freshest memory NHL general managers have of him. Is he the payment for Tyson Barrie? Does that mean a veteran center is also coming in to replace RNH’s minutes? I think those are the biggest questions remaining this summer.

cairns capture 1

MATT CAIRNS

During the second through seventh rounds of the draft, it is pretty easy to miss a few important facts about one of more players chosen. In the case of the Oilers and this blog, I think Matt Cairns may be such a player. The draft day post congratulated this blog for having him on the Top 150 list, and then a brief scouting report. As the days have gone by, I have had a chance to read more about this player—it is an impressive resume.

  • Red Line Report (No. 115 overall). We had high hopes for the big d-man early on, but he can’t seem to decide if he’s an offensive puckhandler (which he’s not) or a tough baggage smasher (which he’s not). Source
  • Future Considerations (No. 110 overall). Cairns is a highly intelligent, two-way defender who impacts the game in all three zones. A defender that exudes confidence, he could easily fit into most OHL teams’ top four defensively right now. He is a relatively low-upside player, but also a solid bet to play in the NHL with his skill set.
  • Black Book (No. 77 overall). Matthew is a big defenseman with a good frame. His skating has experienced some improvements but his first few steps are still a little choppy. Simple has been the key for Cairns. He does a good job playing his man one on one letting the play come to him and attacking at the right time.
  • Bob Green: “Big kid, good puck mover, good hockey sense. A little bit raw, maybe, but a big guy that can skate and move the puck.” Source

BRANDON DAVIDSON

If the Oilers are done (I think there are additions to come), then Brandon Davidson becomes a very important player. If Oscar Klefom isn’t able to go to begin the season, Davidson would be the obvious choice to step into the top 4D. Of course, Davidson had health issues of his own last year—Dustin Byfuglien is a big man—but he is a key to this defense no matter where he plays.

TODD MCLELLAN

I have a policy of not quoting articles for 24 hours after they appear via MSM, so will not directly quote this Rob Tychkowski article from the Edmonton Journal. It is highly recommended, as Todd McLellan speaks about the team and what needed (and needs) to be done. In reading the article, one gets the feeling we are far from seeing the final moves of summer.

I think the Oilers will fit Todd McLellan’s style (and Peter Chiarelli’s) this fall, and we should expect changes that reflect those styles. The things that are driving the procurement in Edmonton—size, grit, battle, whatever word you want to use—are not analytics needs and the overall skill of this roster has and will take a beating.

We have discussed many times that there is more than one way to win, and this Edmonton team is getting a makeover that fits the coach and management. Is Nuge the next man out? On the face of it, I would say no. He absolutely plays a two-way game—something Edmonton has precious little of up front—and has been effective when healthy in these years. Should the Oilers flush RNH to add Tyson Barrie, it is imperative to replace his minutes with a veteran. No way on earth Leon Draisaitl can be asked to step into that role this fall. That said, the blue remains unclear. We wait.

LOWDOWN WITH LOWETIDE

A fun show this morning, fluid because of a few things happening. At 10, TSN1260:

  • Jason de Vos, TSN Soccer Analyst. We will preview the Euro semis. Go Bale!
  • Bruce McCurdy, Cult of Hockey. Jupiter, Oilers and other things.
  • Andrew Bucholtz, 55-Yard Line. CFL Week 3 just about ready to roll.
  • Kirk Luedeke, Red Line Report and New England Hockey Journal. Bruins summer and some draft talk.

10-1260 text, @Lowetide on twitter. See you on the radio!

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162 Responses to "NUGE JACK CITY"

  1. Washingtron says:

    You said all along this summer was likely to hurt and I don’t know any of us guessed just how bad. I will say that I’m excited to see what happens next. I just don’t know if it’s watching a fireworks show excited or driving past a car accident “excited.” I vote keep Nuge. Where do I send the ballot?

  2. Undisclosed_Personal_Reasons says:

    Hopefully “Nuge Yak City” can be a headline one day.

  3. Rondo says:

    LT,

    Can you ask Kirk Luedeke about Markus Niemeläinen?

    I believe there is a huge risk in trading RNH as there is no replacement, with Taylor Hall at least we got a #1 winger to “replace” Hall.

  4. Offside says:

    “Is Nuge the next man out? On the face of it, I would say no. He absolutely plays a two-way game—something Edmonton has precious little of up front”

    My concern is that Nuge’s two way skills look impressive in comparison to a dearth of this player type on the Oilers forward roster. We need the “seen him good” test to evaluate where his ability lies league-wide and this is where Chia and McLellan’s experience comes in. There may be a chance Chia/Mclellan have seen better and feel that Nuge can be adequately replaced at a cost savings of a few million per year

  5. Jaxon says:

    Hypothetically, what would Duchene and Barrie cost? Nuge and who? 1 young LHD not named Klefbom and one of Pouliot or Yakupov? Still not sure I’d like a trade like that either. Hold onto Nuge please.

  6. Ducey says:

    Has anyone figured out whether Barrie can even be traded anymore now that he has opted for arbitration?

  7. mattelliott says:

    Something to remember is McLellan has compared Nuge to a guy like Pavelski. One would think he wouldn’t be too fond of trading away Pavelski in his San Jose times. I don’t think we will see Nuge move but I also didn’t think Hall would move.

  8. Aitch says:

    Washingtron:
    You said all along this summer was likely to hurt and I don’t know any of us guessed just how bad.I will say that I’m excited to see what happens next.I just don’t know if it’s watching a fireworks show excited or driving past a car accident “excited.”I vote keep Nuge.Where do I send the ballot?

    Off-season hurt can be cured by in-season winning.

  9. OilClog says:

    Truly believe Nuges trade value to the moustache is far higher then landing a 3rd pairing Powerplay specialist.

    Nuge isn’t going anywhere

  10. leadfarmer says:

    If the asking price for Barrie is higher than Pouliot, Yak, and a first I actually hope that Chia stops shopping. Might need to hold on for a year to let the slightly improved defense grow a bit and see if some of these guys can have better seasons with the slighty better defense to up their value.

  11. Offside says:

    Snowman,

    Maybe there are some other transactions I can’t remember

    the minor loss of Taylor Hall??

  12. HeatTreaterJoe says:

    Re-posted from the previous thread… I’m not trying to set the world on fire to see it burn.

    But I HATE the idea of trading either of RNH or Eberle for anything less than a strong defensive blueliner. I don’t want McDavid and Drai and JP to have no forward shelter in the fall… this is partly why the Hall / RNH / Eberle cluster was never able to get out of the basement.

    Now that we have Larsson and Fayne as 1RD / 2RD, would it not be possible to low-ball Justin Schultz, and then actually play has a 3RD / 1PP? Play him the way the Penguins used him? If it’s nothing but money, and < $2M, I'd rather have bring Jultz back and keep the remaining forwards as opposed to further gutting the forwards and bringing in a Barrie or Vatanen.

    Klefbom – Larsson
    Sekera – Fayne
    Davidson – Jultz (Jultz < 14 minutes per game)
    Nurse

  13. Woogie63 says:

    PC is not done looking for a dman and nor should me be done for the start of 2016

    Davidson , 63 NHL games is a very small sample size to project him as a top 4 Dman
    Klefbom, 107 NHL games, is a very small sample size to project him as a D1 or D2,
    Nurse, 71 NHL games is a tiny sample size to project his development
    Reinhard, 37 NHL games is a tiny sample size to project his development

  14. Frank the dog says:

    The only reason I could see Chia trading Nuge would be because he:
    1) Is too expensive to be played as a 3C behind CMD and Drai down the road.
    2) Would bring back the final missing piece in the D puzzle – offensive defenseman.
    3) Perhaps a bit smaller and lighter than Chia likes down the middle.

    I can see Chia trading Ebs at some point if he sees Ebs playing hard when he wants to, and not being as defensively responsible as he needs to be.

    It’s pretty clear that Yak brings nothing back in a trade right now, could he be considered addition by subtraction? Does Chias have any time left to dress him up if he has to win this year?

  15. Frank the dog says:

    HeatTreaterJoe:
    Re-posted from the previous thread… I’m not trying to set the world on fire to see it burn.

    But I HATE the idea of trading either of RNH or Eberle for anything less than a strong defensive blueliner. I don’t want McDavid and Drai and JP to have no forward shelter in the fall… this is partly why the Hall / RNH / Eberle cluster was never able to get out of the basement.

    Now that we have Larsson and Fayne as 1RD / 2RD, would it not be possible to low-ball Justin Schultz, and then actually play has a 3RD / 1PP? Play him the way the Penguins used him? If it’s nothing but money, and < $2M, I’d rather have bring Jultz back and keep the remaining forwards as opposed to further gutting the forwards and bringing in a Barrie or Vatanen.

    Klefbom – Larsson
    Sekera – Fayne
    Davidson – Jultz (Jultz < 14 minutes per game)
    Nurse

    Nothing money for a deficit to the team. The team was better with him off-ice. Apparently Pittsburgh doesn’t think he’s worth anything either. Schultz plays like someone whose mind is occasionally elsewhere. At one point I thought he had cost Pittsburgh the Stanley late in the series.

  16. Hot Eire says:

    This is a player type that our GM seems to love (2 way, high compete). In my book, Chia has RNH>>>Hall. I really doubt that he’s moving the Nuge!

  17. 99266in87 says:

    Frank the dog:
    The only reason I could see Chia trading Nuge would be because he:
    1) Is too expensive to be played as a 3C behind CMD and Drai down the road.
    2) Would bring back the final missing piece in the D puzzle – offensive defenseman.
    3) Perhaps a bit smaller and lighter than Chia likes down the middle.

    I can see Chia trading Ebs at some point if he sees Ebs playing hard when he wants to, and not being as defensively responsible as he needs to be.

    It’s pretty clear that Yak brings nothing back in a trade right now, could he be considered addition by subtraction? Does Chias have any time left to dress him up if he has to win this year?

    I see your point #1 and since Hall departed, maybe the bigger wheels above Chia are maybe re-setting the “internal cap”. I don’t see the money guys for the oilers paying similar Austin money for every second contracts.

  18. HeatTreaterJoe says:

    Frank the dog: Nothing money for a deficit to the team. The team was better with him off-ice. Apparently Pittsburgh doesn’t think he’s worth anything either. Schultz plays like someone whose mind is occasionally elsewhere. At one point I thought he had cost Pittsburgh the Stanley late in the series.

    Fair comments… if Jultz isn’t even a competent 3RD/PP specialist, maybe I should just have re-worded my post to simply “I would rather bring back Jultz than trade away RNH” 😀

  19. Durag says:

    leadfarmer:
    If the asking price for Barrie is higher than Pouliot, Yak, and a first I actually hope that Chia stops shopping.Might need to hold on for a year to let the slightly improved defense grow a bit and see if some of these guys can have better seasons with the slighty better defense to up their value.

    I can’t see Chia standing pat after the Hall trade. The fans are already up in arms and incremental improvement isn’t going to be enough to quiet the angry masses.

  20. John Chambers says:

    Chiarelli has employed Krejci successfully and I suspect he sees Nuge as a younger version of the same player.

    McLellan has seen RNH mature as a player and play well against Western Conference bohemoths.

    The best hockey the Oilers played last year was the brief stretch when RNH centred Hall and Drai. Even if TMac and Chia envision a future where 97 and 27 are the 1-2 combination at C, we’re not there yet, and any Nuge for Dumba trade would represent a bigger loss than Hall for Larsson.

    Nuge stays. I can’t see it any other way.

  21. John Chambers says:

    Durag: I can’t see Chia standing pat after the Hall trade. The fans are already up in arms and incremental improvement isn’t going to be enough to quiet the angry masses.

    He’s waiting for Sakic to cave so that the asking price on Barrie is a few pieces not named Nugent-Hopkins.

    Two of Yak, Davidson, Pouliot, or Reinhart should be the price.

  22. Pouzar says:

    Woogie63:
    PC is not done looking for a dman and nor should me be done for the start of 2016

    Davidson , 63 NHL games is a very small sample size to project him as a top 4 Dman
    Klefbom, 107 NHL games, is a very small sample size to projecthim as a D1 or D2,
    Nurse, 71 NHL games is a tiny sample sizeto project his development
    Reinhard, 37 NHL games is a tiny sample size to project his development

    Do that same exercise for our Centers.

  23. Ca$h-McMoney! says:

    HeatTreaterJoe:

    Now that we have Larsson and Fayne as 1RD / 2RD, would it not be possible to low-ball Justin Schultz, and then actually play has a 3RD / 1PP? Play him the way the Penguins used him? If it’s nothing but money, and < $2M, I’d rather have bring Jultz back and keep the remaining forwards as opposed to further gutting the forwards and bringing in a Barrie or Vatanen.

    Klefbom – Larsson
    Sekera – Fayne
    Davidson – Jultz (Jultz < 14 minutes per game)
    Nurse

    This line of thinking is a perfect reflection of what I’ve been ranting about for months. It ignores the reality that UFA signings require both sides to agree.

    The only way Schultz comes back to Edmonton is if 29 other teams don’t even make an offer. I believe he’d take a 50% discount to play literally anywhere else. He was treated like utter garbage by the fan base here and was mentally broken by the time he left.

    Heck, for decent money I could see him choosing Europe over Edmonton if it came down to that.

  24. edwards_daddy says:

    If we trade Nuge for M-A Bergeron, we need Chiarelli to open up his head at a press conference to see if there’s anything in there that’s being supplied with oxygen.

  25. Ducey says:

    HeatTreaterJoe:
    Re-posted from the previous thread… I’m not trying to set the world on fire to see it burn.

    But I HATE the idea of trading either of RNH or Eberle for anything less than a strong defensive blueliner. I don’t want McDavid and Drai and JP to have no forward shelter in the fall… this is partly why the Hall / RNH / Eberle cluster was never able to get out of the basement.

    Now that we have Larsson and Fayne as 1RD / 2RD, would it not be possible to low-ball Justin Schultz, and then actually play has a 3RD / 1PP? Play him the way the Penguins used him? If it’s nothing but money, and < $2M, I’d rather have bring Jultz back and keep the remaining forwards as opposed to further gutting the forwards and bringing in a Barrie or Vatanen.

    Klefbom – Larsson
    Sekera – Fayne
    Davidson – Jultz (Jultz < 14 minutes per game)
    Nurse

    1) Schultz is a real person, not some fantasy league statistic. He got run out of here by the fans, media and organization. I can’t see him coming back working out well unless he really changed his game. He hasn’t. He is still pillowy soft.

    2) Schultz isn’t really that good on the PP. He had 9, 10, and 8 points on the PP each of the last three years. No sure that is worth the problems he has otherwise.

    3) PIT placed him in extremely sheltered minutes. EDM doesn’t have Letang playing 30 minutes a night to take up all the tough assignments.

    I have cheered for him to turn things around. I don’t see it happening.

    There will be better options as the summer goes along. Teams will get hit with some arbitration decisions or will pay more than they wanted and need to move $. Some teams will face waiver decisions and some players will sign cheap deals.

    I think if I was Chia, I’d sign Gryba for $1 M (ideally as the 7th D) and keep working phones to grab someone like Pysyk.

  26. Offside says:

    John Chambers,

    “Nuge stays. I can’t see it any other way”

    Did you see the Hall for Larsson trade coming? Nuge is quality but there are less expensive options if we lose him for an offensive D

  27. Truth says:

    Offside:
    John Chambers,

    “Nuge stays. I can’t see it any other way”

    Did you see the Hall for Larsson trade coming? Nuge is quality but there are less expensive options if we lose him for an offensive D

    Make no mistake, the Oilers were actively shopping Hall. Through prior experience we know that McLellan loves his C’s, and in McLellan’s opinion Nuge may very well be worth more to this team than Hall was.

  28. Frank the dog says:

    Ca$h-McMoney!: This line of thinking is a perfect reflection of what I’ve been ranting about for months. It ignores the reality that UFA signings require both sides to agree.

    The only way Schultz comes back to Edmonton is if 29 other teams don’t even make an offer. I believe he’d take a 50% discount to play literally anywhere else. He was treated like utter garbage by the fan base here and was mentally broken by the time he left.

    Heck, for decent money I could see him choosing Europe over Edmonton if it came down to that.

    I think his non violent approach to hockey makes him a better fit for the Euro (read non-Russian) game. I don’t see a future for him anywhere until he stops having random mental vacuum episodes though. He was crazy good in College. He was good when he first came here. I wish I knew what ruined him in Edmonton, suspect it was more than just coaching. Nice guy, holes in brain.

  29. kinger_OIL says:

    Woogie63:
    PC is not done looking for a dman and nor should me be done for the start of 2016

    Davidson , 63 NHL games is a very small sample size to project him as a top 4 Dman
    Klefbom, 107 NHL games, is a very small sample size to projecthim as a D1 or D2,
    Nurse, 71 NHL games is a tiny sample sizeto project his development
    Reinhard, 37 NHL games is a tiny sample size to project his development

    – While agree, for the first time in like forever, in Larsson and Sek we have 2 D who would be top-4 on any team. I haven’t included Klef because on a prudent deep team, they wouldn’t pencil him in as pairing for shut-down top pair. But we “might” now have 3 bona-fide top-4.

    – Davidson on a good team is right where he should be: passed all the tests, can play on the bottom role, but has shown promise, might be counted on to move up over next 2 seasons

    – Nurse on a good team would be: lots of tools, pretty raw, play him a bit in the minors and a bit in the bigs with a vet

    – Griff same thing: more of a Defensive guy, but showing well: same treatement as Nurse

    – I’ve said it before, I could live with this set now, and get another guy at deadline who is UFA, but be scared of Klef untill he plays every game up to the deadline. If not, you need 2 more real D

    * Roger Fededer: please have one more in you: heart of a champion today….

  30. Andy Dufresne says:

    My takeaway from the Tychkowski article is “Accountability and Leadership”…MUSIC!!!!!

    As a season ticket holder, one of the things that bothered me the most was watching the Oilers get dominated by another team ( in humialting fashion) due in part to their own poor performance ( ZERO on the give a shit meter) and then as a fan, naively expecting that thier pride would kick in and they’ed come out flying in the next game at least for the first 10 minutes…..but…….no…..they would come out flat ….as if the humiliation they suffered the last game was just part of the routine that is Oilers Hockey.

    SO, not wanting to pick a scab of a wound that is still healing, and not to lay this at the feet of Taylor Hall who on most nights was the best Oiler on the ice, but

    1) Hall gets traded for a less than equivalant return
    2) After meeting Chia, Hall himself calls the trade an indictment of him personally as a player
    3) When called out in public near the end of the 2014 season (by the GM MacT) to step up as leaders, Hall (and Eberle) state in public that they prefer to let thier play on the ice speak for them. ( as opposed to “locker room leadership”)
    4) Taylor is never given the C ( while guys like Landeskog are given the C at age 19)
    5) Team goes through 5 coaches and there are rumblings of some of the stars being potential coach killers
    6) For all his talent, heart and desire, there are signs of pouting, tantrums, reluctance to mature into a two way player, which does not fit with the NHL image of a leader
    7) His falling down ( Taylor Fallsy) which became part of his persona, did not fit with the NHL image of a leader
    8) Despite the obvious talent level, Hall is continuosly left of Team Canada rosters.
    9) When he is finally traded the team coach sad to see Hall go but is “ECSTATIC” about Halls replacement, who above all brings “Accountability and Leadership” to the dressing room

    Is it possible that we as fans who viewed Taylor as the best player on the ice most nights, and who loved not only his skills but his passion for the game. Who adopted him as our deliverer and the face of the franchise, were perhaps blinded to the degree to which his shortcomings were viewed in hockey management circles as being very important?

    Was it a preceived lack of leadership that ultimately sent Hall out of own?

    I know it’s sacrilege to speak ill of Hall on this site given his undeniable talent as a river pusher and his obvious passion for the game, but is our love for the guy blinding us to what could be a significant part of the reason he was moved? Forest for the trees….hiding in plain sight…and all of that stuff?

    Ecstatic about Leadership and Accountability suggests it might be.

    (I am not speaking here to the charachter of Taylor Hall or my personal views about the player but rather to the nature of the trade)

  31. kinger_OIL says:

    Frank the dog:
    The only reason I could see Chia trading Nuge would be because he:
    1) Is too expensive to be played as a 3C behind CMD and Drai down the road.
    2) Would bring back the final missing piece in the D puzzle – offensive defenseman.
    3) Perhaps a bit smaller and lighter than Chia likes down the middle.

    I can see Chia trading Ebs at some point if he sees Ebs playing hard when he wants to, and not being as defensively responsible as he needs to be.

    It’s pretty clear that Yak brings nothing back in a trade right now, could he be considered addition by subtraction? Does Chias have any time left to dress him up if he has to win this year?

    – Yeah, by the time we win the Cup, Nuge will be gone (or Drai if he ends up just ok). Can’t pay all three of those C’s full value, and have a balanced roster.

    – One day hopefully, Drai and RNH will be highly coveted, top C’s and one is part of a block-buster deal that puts our team over the top…

  32. jm363561 says:

    I have no idea who might, or might not, come in but I believe Chia (i) has a plan, and (ii) is in “full on” mode to upgrade the team. I expect to see almost all remaining cap space (around $5m if I understand the bonus accounting correctly) + next year’s first + players, being used to bring in new blood – likely a RW and another RHD, at least.

    I think we might reasonably expect that one or two of our prospects (who we seem to overlook very easily) breakthrough like Davidson last year, and I continue to hope Anton Lander v3.0 might come through. Interesting few weeks.

  33. LMHF#1 says:

    Watching people take considerable time and effort to trash Tyson Barrie over the the past couple days has been rather embarrassing to see.

    I understand why RTB wouldn’t support acquiring him as he’s set on that model and I respect his consistency, but a bunch of people are just grasping at straws and statistical bits from here, there and everywhere to trash a guy who has put up 102 points from the blue line in the past 2 seasons and is only 24 years old.

    Come the **** on…

  34. Andy Dufresne says:

    and the latest rumours had Chia offering Pouliot, the 2017 1st, and a 3rd piece for Barrie. Chia not offering Nuge for Barrie.

    John Chambers:
    Chiarelli has employed Krejci successfully and I suspect he sees Nuge as a younger version of the same player.

    McLellan has seen RNH mature as a player and play well against Western Conference bohemoths.

    The best hockey the Oilers played last year was the brief stretch when RNH centred Hall and Drai. Even if TMac and Chia envision a future where 97 and 27 are the 1-2 combination at C, we’re not there yet, and any Nuge for Dumba trade would represent a bigger loss than Hall for Larsson.

    Nuge stays. I can’t see it any other way.

  35. Jethro Tull says:

    Andy Dufresne: (I am not speaking here to the charachter of Taylor Hall or my personal views about the player but rather to the nature of the trade)

    Yes you are. If you’re going to write it, at least own it, Andy.

  36. Snowman says:

    Andy Dufresne,

    You should read this. http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/edmonton-oilers/jason-gregor-oilers-failed-hall-more-than-he-failed-the-team

    kinger_OIL,

    I don’t necessarily agree they can’t keep the 3Cs. Pitt has Malkin, Crosby and Kessel (I know not all three are Cs) and I doubt Nuge ever commands Kessel money and I doubt if Drai ever commands Malkin money. Klef/Larsson are likely a cheap top pairing in a year or two.

  37. semi legendary rot lobster says:

    if nuge traded imperative oilers get veteran c somehow

    imperative if hall traded that 1d coming back or multiple roster gaps be filled

    means nuge will be traded even up for barrie w no c help on way

    mcdraivid will be thrown 2 wolves lander letestu will b 3c 4c next year

    wolves r bad news

    also lobsters can eval d men better than mact

  38. linkfromhyrule says:

    Andy Dufresne,

    I would recommend you read Gregor’s recent article at the Journal.

    Edit: I see Snowman beat me to it..

    It’s baffling to me that fans still blame Taylor Hall for the problems with this team. It’s seriously beating a dead horse, but come on man. Taylor Hall didn’t build a blueline full of AHLers and has-beens. Taylor Hall didn’t trade for and overpay Nikita Nikitin. Taylor Hall didn’t make Jultz implode, or Scrivens, or Dubnyk.

    Hall was one of the few players who actually gave a s**t every night

  39. Andy Dufresne says:

    Jethro Tull,

    I do own it Jethro. I’m asking a question.

  40. Durag says:

    Andy Dufresne,

    The only comment I’ve heard to this effect from a media person was from Jay Onrait on the Jay and Dan Podcast of all places. He said a source had told him that Hall “hadn’t developed into the leader they’d hoped he would.” It was interesting because on the one hand, Onrait has been in L.A. for 3 years working for a network that could care less about hockey, but on the other hand he isn’t the type to talk out of his ass and has nothing to gain by running with a weak rumor about the Oilers.

    The comment makes a certain amount of sense to me. I love Hall as a player and absolutely hated the crap about “body language” and the like that people used to run down his character, but I could definitely see him as a quiet, reserved guy who preferred to do his talking on the ice. I don’t think Hall was a ‘grab the team by the balls’ sort of leader who would call out a team mate who was dogging it or make ra ra locker room speeches – but I can definitely see Lucic being that guy, and maybe that’s what management felt they were lacking.

    Again, tons of speculation and I really hate talking about an athlete’s ‘character’, but the Onrait comment lends some credibility to this rationale for the trade.

  41. Frank the dog says:

    Tyson Barrie
    http://www.theoilersrig.com/2016/04/tyson-barrie-near-top-oilers-offseason-wishlist/
    From May 28th. Suggesting Ebs.
    A high scoring defensively deficient RW for a high scoring defensively deficient RHD.

    Would this improve the team? I don’t think so.

  42. Snowman says:

    Offside:
    Snowman,

    Maybe there are some other transactions I can’t remember

    the minor loss of Taylor Hall??

    The site garbled and rearranged and deleted parts of my original comment.

    Adam Larsson is better than Schultz.
    Jesse Puljujarvi is likely close to equal to Teddy Purcell this year and likely much better down the road.
    Milan Lucic isn’t as good as Taylor Hall but its closer than a lot of people think in my opinion..
    Mark Letestu is better than Gordon in my opinion.
    Davidson is better than Nikitin.
    Kassian is better than Scrivens.
    Maroon was a good add.

    The Oilers lost some elite high end skill but have added more skill throughout the lineup since Chia took over. I don’t think LT’s assertion that ” the overall skill of this roster has and will take a beating.” is necessarily true. They are clearly a better team today than when Chia took over. Some of the moves were/are extremely tough to swallow but generally speaking I think Chia has done his job in a passable manner. Even if they trade Nuge for Barrie I think you can reasonably argue that the skill in/out is pretty close and I don’t want them to make that trade.

  43. dustrock says:

    linkfromhyrule:
    Andy Dufresne,

    I would recommend you read Gregor’s recent article at the Journal.

    Edit: I see Snowman beat me to it..

    It’s baffling to me that fans still blame Taylor Hall for the problems with this team. It’s seriously beating a dead horse, but come on man. Taylor Hall didn’t build a blueline full of AHLers and has-beens. Taylor Hall didn’t trade for and overpay Nikita Nikitin. Taylor Hall didn’t make Jultz implode, or Scrivens, or Dubnyk.

    Hall was one of the few players who actually gave a s**t every night

    I think Andy was pretty careful to be neutral, he was posting what some people `perceive“ about Hall, not that he thought Hall was a bad leader.

    Sports is weird. Hemsky was the first guy off the ice after practice so he doesn’t really care, Petry makes some big errors so he must be a bad player.

    It shouldn’t matter what kind of leader Hall is, but maybe it does matter to the team. Every player needs to be like Toews I guess.

    As I said several months ago, is Toews a good leader and that makes him a winner, or is Toews a good winner and that makes him a leader?

    Anyway, I don’t think Chia is trading 2 of the Austins, unless there’s another Adam Larsson out there. 😉

  44. Snowman says:

    Frank the dog,

    Barrie isn’t defensively deficient. He’s a very solid top 4D. Go read up on Woodguy’s blog.

  45. Andy Dufresne says:

    Your making my point for me.

    I asked a question. For all that Hall brings, is his Leadership questioned by NHL managers? and is it possible that this in someway contributes to the percieved lack of return in the trade.

    You can’t whine and bitch about the return in the trade and then refuse to consider the “possible” rational for the disparity in the return.

    Nowhere did I blame Taylor Hall for the problems of the team. I pointed to eveidence that there may be a perception of Hall as lacking in the leadership dept.

    Dispute my evidence if you like, thats why I posted it. But dont draw false conclusions that I did not make.

    linkfromhyrule:
    Andy Dufresne,

    I would recommend you read Gregor’s recent article at the Journal.

    Edit: I see Snowman beat me to it..

    It’s baffling to me that fans still blame Taylor Hall for the problems with this team. It’s seriously beating a dead horse, but come on man. Taylor Hall didn’t build a blueline full of AHLers and has-beens. Taylor Hall didn’t trade for and overpay Nikita Nikitin. Taylor Hall didn’t make Jultz implode, or Scrivens, or Dubnyk.

    Hall was one of the few players who actually gave a s**t every night

  46. "Steve Smith" says:

    dustrock: I think Andy was pretty careful to be neutral, he was posting what some people `perceive“ about Hall, not that he thought Hall was a bad leader.

    Some people perceive that Andy Dufresne has his head up his ass. I’m not saying that he does; I’m just asking the question.

  47. Andy Dufresne says:

    Thank you Sir.

    You have accurately discribed my intention. I appreciate your objectivity.

    dustrock: I think Andy was pretty careful to be neutral, he was posting what some people `perceive“ about Hall, not that he thought Hall was a bad leader.

    Sports is weird.Hemsky was the first guy off the ice after practice so he doesn’t really care, Petry makes some big errors so he must be a bad player.

    It shouldn’t matter what kind of leader Hall is, but maybe it does matter to the team.Every player needs to be like Toews I guess.

    As I said several months ago, is Toews a good leader and that makes him a winner, or is Toews a good winner and that makes him a leader?

    Anyway, I don’t think Chia is trading 2 of the Austins, unless there’s another Adam Larsson out there.

  48. Andy Dufresne says:

    “Steve Smith”: Some people perceive that Andy Dufresne has his head up his ass.I’m not saying that he does; I’m just asking the question.

    Thank you Steve. You’re adding evidence to the point that some of us (myself included) may be letting our emotions and our love of Taylor Hall blind us to his potential shortcomings.

    Which of the 9 points do you dispute?

  49. blainer says:

    There really are a few people here who need to move on from the Hall trade. I have.

    Larsson is gonna make us feel better real quick.

    On Barrie. No way we should even think about Nuge for him. Nuge is a take away king and is dogged for his size. His faecoff’s will improve with the additions of Lucic and Maroon.

    The PP D problem.

    If anybody has been looking at the highlights of Puly from the finnish league you can see a LOT of his points are coming from the RT and LT point on the PP. The oil are probably considering this as a solution for the PP D.

    Now I am no way advocating for JP to make the team out of camp but if he does don’t be surprised to see him there on the PP.

    I agree very much with Pouzar that we should just sign Wiz as a third pairing or 7th D and the PP. The mark bergeron role so to speak.

    We need Davey in case Klef’s foot is cooked.

    I am very happy with the D and I bet Ricki is too. I see Fayne as a low minutes shut down D along with Klef Davey and Larsson. The best D this team has had since 06 IMO.

  50. DawnM says:

    Trading Nuge would be an error of colossal proportions. Drai was great for one month last season, with Taylor Hall btw. I don’t know if he’s ready to be great for eight months in a row. Maybe he is, but if he isn’t, is Lander or Letestu gonna be able to cover his a$$? Good centres are not any easier to find than D. Nuge had Horcoff to take some of the tough match ups. The idea of throwing out McDavid and Draisaitl against the toughest matchups in the league? Criminal. And even worse, a repeat of the last time we had a few kids trying to lead a team out of the wilderness.

  51. kinger_OIL says:

    Bohologo: With apologies to Gzowski, DFW’s Federer as Religious Experience is the greatest piece of sportswriting ever:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/sports/playmagazine/20federer.html

    “Beauty is not the goal of competitive sports, but high-level sports are a prime venue for the expression of human beauty. The relation is roughly that of courage to war.”

    – Yes I love that article! one of the best I agree: part of me would like to see Federer win and retire: I could also see him as a modern day Ken Roswell who went to the Finals of Wimbledon @ 39.

    – Not sure if Fed would be ok being a top-20 who puts it all together a few times a year, but he could play for long if he was still “hungry”

    *end of threadjack!

  52. OilersFuture says:

    Hot Eire:
    This is a player type that our GM seems to love (2 way, high compete). In my book, Chia has RNH>>>Hall. I really doubt that he’s moving the Nuge!

    I have the same opinion.

    I think there were a couple of factors which lead to Hall getting dealt. Obviously he had the highest return. But another reason could be Chia valuing guys like Bergeron/Nuge higher than Seguin/Hall. Nuge has a perceived more complete two-way game. Also coaches seem to play Nuge more than Hall. This year was the first year that Hall had a higher TOI/GP than Nuge since Ryan’s rookie year. For the most part it was less than 30 seconds so not significant but if Hall was head/shoulders better than Nuge wouldn’t he have a higher TOI/G?

    I’m not saying that I would value Hall more but Chia might.

  53. dustrock says:

    We talk about Nuge as our “3C” and PP specialist but man, isn’t he our #1C?

    Drai isn’t ready for prime time C role I don’t think, though he acquitted himself rather well.

    McDavid is McDavid, but I wonder if McLellan gives him the soft parade.

  54. Jethro Tull says:

    Andy Dufresne:
    Thank you Sir.

    You have accurately discribed my intention.I appreciate your objectivity.

    I think you may be overthinking this a tad. #1 RHD was the need. Taylor Hall was not the price we wanted to pay, but one we could live with and possibly the best of all evils.

    Some of the confusion about your post may be around the fact that some of your points seem a little personal and ONish. Particularly points 4 through 8. We have flogged this dead horse since his draft year +1 when we really went into the vortex of suck. He was so good on the ice, that he had to be as good of it, right?

  55. kinger_OIL says:

    Andy Dufresne,

    – A few years ago, I reported back on this site that hockey guys, NHL’ers, coaches, all told me “Trade Hall”, when I asked how this team moves forward. Lots of fun posts after I posted that!

    – Now I didn’t post any salicious rumours with that, just said what a bunch of guys way smarter and closer to the NHL than anyone here thought.

    – Anyway it will be fun to debate the Hall trade for years: Shanahan vs Pronger if you will…

  56. Water Fire says:

    If they are going to pay another high D salary, I think I’m leaning to a two way player instead of Barrie.

    Between JP, Klefbom, Sekera and Larsson I think they can make a good PP, but be a lot more solid 5V5.

    I wonder what the Jets want for Trouba and if he wants to play in Canada? Either way Sekera likely has to go when McD, Nurse and Leon get paid.

    Klef Larsson
    Nurse Trouba

    looks pretty nice and not overly pricey.

  57. Andy Dufresne says:

    Agreed. Also, I don’t think questioning leadership capability, if done properly, is an “attack” on character. Some athletes exude leadership skills (Messier for example) others do not. It doesn’t make them bad athletes or bad people.

    Durag:
    Andy Dufresne,

    The only comment I’ve heard to this effect from a media person was from Jay Onrait on the Jay and Dan Podcast of all places. He said a source had told him that Hall “hadn’t developed into the leader they’d hoped he would.” It was interesting because on the one hand, Onrait has been in L.A. for 3 years working for a network that could care less about hockey, but on the other hand he isn’t the type to talk out of his ass and has nothing to gain by running with a weak rumor about the Oilers.

    The comment makes a certain amount of sense to me. I love Hall as a player and absolutely hated the crap about “body language” and the like that people used to run down his character, but I could definitely see him as a quiet, reserved guy who preferred to do his talking on the ice. I don’t think Hall was a ‘grab the team by the balls’ sort of leader who would call out a team mate who was dogging it or make ra ra locker room speeches – but I can definitely see Lucic being that guy, and maybe that’s what management felt they were lacking.

    Again, tons of speculation and I really hate talking about an athlete’s ‘character’, but the Onrait comment lends some credibility to this rationale for the trade.

  58. digger50 says:

    Truth: Make no mistake, the Oilers were actively shopping Hall.Through prior experience we know that McLellan loves his C’s, and in McLellan’s opinion Nuge may very well be worth more to this team than Hall was.

    Just want to comment on “actively shopping Hall” I cannot see it. I would be more certain that Chia identified his trade target (Larsson) and went after him almost exclusively once the Subban trade fell apart. Hall could have fetched much more value had other GM’s been involved,.

  59. blainer says:

    HeatTreaterJoe:
    Re-posted from the previous thread… I’m not trying to set the world on fire to see it burn.

    But I HATE the idea of trading either of RNH or Eberle for anything less than a strong defensive blueliner. I don’t want McDavid and Drai and JP to have no forward shelter in the fall… this is partly why the Hall / RNH / Eberle cluster was never able to get out of the basement.

    Now that we have Larsson and Fayne as 1RD / 2RD, would it not be possible to low-ball Justin Schultz, and then actually play has a 3RD / 1PP? Play him the way the Penguins used him? If it’s nothing but money, and < $2M, I’d rather have bring Jultz back and keep the remaining forwards as opposed to further gutting the forwards and bringing in a Barrie or Vatanen.

    Klefbom – Larsson
    Sekera – Fayne
    Davidson – Jultz (Jultz < 14 minutes per game)
    Nurse

    Is that you Mact ? lol..

    IMO the single biggest addition come the fall is the subtraction of Jultz.. I feel the same about Yak but can live with the idea of playing him on CMD’s wing with Looch as those two will be possession demons.

    I would actually love for yak to take a year and play over in the KHL to help him in a late development sort of way.

  60. Jaxon says:

    I hope they, at most, sign a UFA right-hand D to a cheap 1 year deal. Then I hope San Jose implodes this season and trades away their upcoming UFAs (Thornton, Marleau and Burns) or, at least, lets them walk next summer. Then, all Edmonton has to pay is money, and maybe even reasonable money if Burns liked playing for MacLellan and wants to play behind McDavid just like Lucic. That would be the best case scenario for next summer.

    Imagine a lineup with
    Klefbom – Larsson
    Sekera – Burns
    Nurse – Fayne
    and maybe even Paigin – Bear after the trade deadline in 2018.

    Lucic-McDavid-Puljujarvi
    Maroon-Nugent-Hopkins-Eberle
    Pouliot-Draisaitl-Yakupov
    Cagguila-Yakimov-Kassian

    Lucic, Burns, Maroon, Nurse, Kassian, Yakimov. I don’t think many teams would like playing against the Oilers. Yakimov may not have much aggression in his game, but he is an absolute giant. To a lesser extent the size and or aggressive play of Klefbom, Larsson, Fayne, Pouliot, Yakupov, Draisaitl, Puljujarvi and Cagguila won’t be easy to play against either. Which should make more room for McDavid, Nuge and Eberle to do their thing. I haven’t tried putting these salaries together, so maybe some salary has to be shed beyond Hendricks, Letestu. Fayne? Hope the cap goes up?

  61. godot10 says:

    Ducey:
    Has anyone figured out whether Barrie can even be traded anymore now that he has opted for arbitration?

    Barrie can be traded. He just is no longer eligible for an offer sheet, once he has opted for arbitration.

    But he is unlikely to be traded until after arbitration determines his salary, since most teams are too close to the cap to risk not knowing his salary first.

  62. dustrock says:

    Andy Dufresne,

    The other issue is that nothing solves a locker room problem like winning.

    If the Oilers happened to put a competitive team together in the last few years and even squeaked into the playoffs, we likely wouldn’t hear about any locker room trouble.

    Everyone gets frustrated with a losing season. I can’t imagine year after year.

  63. Connoreah says:

    Andy Dufresne: Thank you Steve. You’re helping me to make my point.

    Which of the 9 points do you dispute?

    In defense of Andy, who here had a sense over the past 4 years that anyone in the Oilers dressing room – anyone – led the team, motivated his teammates, picked them up after a tough loss, held them accountable, challenged them to be better, rallied the troops? Anyone? Now, who on the roster would you have expected to play that role?

    I think Hall was dealt a crappy hand with zero veteran leadership when he came to the Oil. And maybe that’s a big reason why Hall never turned into the leader that does the things listed above. Maybe not his fault. But doesn’t change the fact that what Andy touches on – that Hall’s leadership possibly wasn’t what the team needed – is a pretty legitimate point given all of the evidence. It’s even more legitimate listening to Lucic talk about his role next year, TMac and Chia reference the need for leadership and mentors, and the need for Connor to have someone walk the walk and show him how to win in the NHL

  64. LMHF#1 says:

    While I like Barrie and have, along with others, advocated for his acquisition for some time – a smarter long-term play might be to sign a UFA for 1 year and go after Brent Burns next summer. SJ is near the end of their run and he might see it as a time to move on. I don’t know what McLellan thinks of him, but I’m guessing he’s high on the list.

    There’s your #1 right there, the only issue being age.

  65. kinger_OIL says:

    Jaxon,

    Klefbom – Larsson
    Sekera – Burns

    – That’s my post-deadline top-4 D by the way…

    – Then Davidson, Nurse, Bear, Griff, Jones, Osterle etc trying to get into line-up ,move to top-4 as Sek/Burns get older/Klef gets (re)-injured: A build and sustain D strategy for a decade

  66. Andy Dufresne says:

    Reasoned opinion. I appreciate that. I knew that the nature/tone of the post left it open to be misinterpreted. But I beleive the question is a legitimate question, and a question worth asking, so i posted it anyway.

    Jethro Tull: I think you may be overthinking this a tad.#1 RHD was the need.Taylor Hall was not the price we wanted to pay, but one we could live with and possibly the best of all evils.

    Some of the confusion about your post may be around the fact that some of your points seem a little personal and ONish.Particularly points 4 through 8.We have flogged this dead horse since his draft year +1 when we really went into the vortex of suck.He was so good on the ice, that he had to be as good of it, right?

  67. kashirat says:

    godot10: Barrie can be traded.He just is no longer eligible for an offer sheet, once he has opted for arbitration.

    But he is unlikely to be traded until after arbitration determines his salary, since most teams are too close to the cap to risk not knowing his salary first.

    Can a team sign him to a different deal if they don’t like the results of arbitration? If not, you’d think he’d have more value signed prior to arbitration.

  68. Pouzar says:

    Andy Dufresne: Thank you Steve. You’re adding evidence to the point that some of us (myself included) may be letting our emotions and our love of Taylor Hall blind us to his potential shortcomings.

    Which of the 9 points do you dispute?

    Taylor Hall is a touchy subject around here. Been that way for a while.
    Tread carefully.

  69. dustrock says:

    LMHF#1:
    While I like Barrie and have, along with others, advocated for his acquisition for some time – a smarter long-term play might be to sign a UFA for 1 year and go after Brent Burns next summer. SJ is near the end of their run and he might see it as a time to move on. I don’t know what McLellan thinks of him, but I’m guessing he’s high on the list.

    There’s your #1 right there, the only issue being age.

    Yeah, that Oilers salary cap article from yesterday sure makes the situation going forward a bit ugly with the McDavid, Drai, Reinhart, Nurse and Jarvi bonuses and TheCaptainAndrewFerence not being able to be bought out.

    If Chia can clear some of that space for next year, might make sense.

  70. Younger Oil says:

    Can people please cut out the “Barrie is a 3rd pairing PP specialist” narrative? It really takes away from your argument.

    -Barrie is in the top 30 of minutes played per game for a defenceman.

    -Barrie got 28 even strength points last year (Highest on the Oilers was 16).

    -He is a top 20 producer from the back end by any metric you look at.

    -HE IS ONLY 24!!!

    You can make all the arguments you want about Barrie not being worth Nuge in a trade, it is a very interesting discussion topic, but undermining Barrie’s abilities and achievements to prop Nuge up is ridiculous. Over the past 3 seasons:

    Nuge: 211 GP, 146 points
    Barrie: 222 GP, 140 points

    They essentially bring the same amount of offensive production. Yes, I know offence isn’t everything, but many metrics also show that Barrie is underrated defensively. Again, he is only 24, and is likely 4 years away from being in his prime, when he is a hell of a player now.

  71. Andy Dufresne says:

    Pouzar: Taylor Hall is a touchy subject around here. Been that way for a while.
    Tread carefully.

    Agreed. Tread carefully….but tread nonetheless…..

  72. Younger Oil says:

    LMHF#1:

    There’s your #1 right there, the only issue being age.

    And cap hit.

    Burns could very well fetch north of $7.5M a year, which could create huge cap troubles for the Oilers going forward, especially when he starts to decline.

  73. LMHF#1 says:

    Younger Oil: And cap hit.

    Burns could very well fetch north of $7.5M a year, which could create huge cap troubles for the Oilers going forward, especially when he starts to decline.

    Players of his skill level and production are worth that cap space and more.

    The issue would be term.

    You make space if you can acquire a guy like Burns.

    Hopefully one of the things we will see in the coming years is an end to the lower end players making too much money. Paying guys like Hendricks and Letestu seems innocuous, but it hurts you when players of their skill are available for around half the price.

  74. Water Fire says:

    I’m not sure McLellan wants Burns again based on how he used him.

    He scores a ton but had a couple of real stinker games in the final IMO, when it matters.

  75. Andy Dufresne says:

    Thank you for the defense. But more importantly thank you for the questions and for your reasoned dialogue. Respectful dialogue is what moves things forward, especially when you”re asking the tough questions.

    Connoreah: In defense of Andy, who here had a sense over the past 4 years that anyone in the Oilers dressing room – anyone – led the team, motivated his teammates, picked them up after a tough loss, held them accountable, challenged them to be better, rallied the troops?Anyone?Now, who on the roster would you have expected to play that role?

    I think Hall was dealt a crappy hand with zero veteran leadership when he came to the Oil.And maybe that’s a big reason why Hall never turned into the leader that does the things listed above.Maybe not his fault.But doesn’t change the fact that what Andy touches on – that Hall’s leadership possibly wasn’t what the team needed – is a pretty legitimate point given all of the evidence.It’s even more legitimate listening to Lucic talk about his role next year, TMac and Chia reference the need for leadership and mentors, and the need for Connor to have someone walk the walk and show him how to win in the NHL

  76. Centre of attention says:

    Nuge when fully healthy can drive a line, we have seen it before when Hall goes down.

    I would not trade Nuge, not only because we need him but because the value isn’t there right now.

    Others have stated there are some bigger fish next summer, best to keep our options open. I would love the idea of grabbing Brent Burns in a “win now” type move.

  77. digger50 says:

    Connoreah: In defense of Andy, who here had a sense over the past 4 years that anyone in the Oilers dressing room – anyone – led the team, motivated his teammates, picked them up after a tough loss, held them accountable, challenged them to be better, rallied the troops?Anyone?Now, who on the roster would you have expected to play that role?

    I think Hall was dealt a crappy hand with zero veteran leadership when he came to the Oil.And maybe that’s a big reason why Hall never turned into the leader that does the things listed above.Maybe not his fault.But doesn’t change the fact that what Andy touches on – that Hall’s leadership possibly wasn’t what the team needed – is a pretty legitimate point given all of the evidence.It’s even more legitimate listening to Lucic talk about his role next year, TMac and Chia reference the need for leadership and mentors, and the need for Connor to have someone walk the walk and show him how to win in the NHL

    Was there not just evidence that “Hall mentored me, I don’t know if I will ever be able to thank him enough for what he’s done…” that is evidence as well. Also Evidence f trust from an organization. And to your point, did Hall ever receive that?

    Lucic will lead the room, but undeniably I’ll bet Conner is a little lost right now. Call Mess?

  78. Dustylegnd says:

    Here is the real concern, Chia has repeatedly demonstrated he will over pay to get what he wants, the book on him is that he is impatient, easy to bait and willing to pull triggers very quickly.

    The Oilers operate in a constant state of weakness and the rest of the league knows it, please know Chia will do max damage while yanking the Oilers out of their position of weakness.

    Chia is a blacksmith doing a job that requires the skill of a very talented surgeon……the people he is surrounded by have proven they are less skilled than Chia…..Oilers management is devoid of a succession plan but rather populated with other failed GM’s…..Good Lord

    The Oilers will continue to struggle to score goals and arguably have less offensive ability than they did 1 year ago…think about it

    It would seem management has over estimated Draisaitl’s offensive ability and if they are wrong, we have a new train wreck on our hands

    Perfect health at all positions is required this year

  79. Tapdog says:

    godot10: Barrie can be traded.He just is no longer eligible for an offer sheet, once he has opted for arbitration.

    But he is unlikely to be traded until after arbitration determines his salary, since most teams are too close to the cap to risk not knowing his salary first.

    Barrie could be traded at any time. A team trading for him could come to an agreement on price and he could sign. Just because Arbitration was selected it does not mean they have to wait until the Arb. meeting is complete to make the move.

  80. Andy Dufresne says:

    Two things…..glad for you that you’re the type of person that has what it takes to post something you know might be unpopular and,

    Like you, I’m always more interested to try and uncover/understand what NHL’ers (players, coaches, GM,s) are thinking. I know a couple of them, but not many and not well. So I rely on critical thinking and reading to try and figure things out

    This can lead to “some” questions/posts being not well recieved. I think it’s because I’ve got something in me that compelts me 🙂 to think out side the echo chamber and ask the questions that arent being asked, It’s both painfull and rewarding.
    Your feedback from the people you know is at the very least interesting. People should treat it for what it is. Just one peice of information. Treat it as you will. But dont kill the messenger.

    Ah….but enough about you….lets talk about me…..:)

    kinger_OIL:
    Andy Dufresne,

    – A few years ago, I reported back on this site that hockey guys, NHL’ers, coaches, all told me “Trade Hall”, when I asked how this team moves forward. Lots of fun posts after I posted that!

    – Now I didn’t post any salicious rumours with that, just said what a bunch of guys way smarter and closer to the NHL than anyone here thought.

    – Anyway it will be fun to debate the Hall trade for years: Shanahan vs Pronger if you will…

  81. Andy Dufresne says:

    What book? I’d like to read it.

    You’re disparaging remarks are utter nonsense.

    I think you can make the point you are trying to make without the slanderous remarks. Advice from Tom Skerritt in “A River Runs Throught It” ….”Now go back and write the same message in half the words”……

    (leave out the slander, it adds nothing to you’re argument and weakens your credibility)

    Dustylegnd:
    Here is the real concern, Chia has repeatedly demonstrated he will over pay to get what he wants, the book on him is that he is impatient, easy to bait and willing to pull triggers very quickly.

    The Oilers operate in a constant state of weakness and the rest of the league knows it, please know Chia will do max damage while yanking the Oilers out of their position of weakness.

    Chia is a blacksmith doing a job that requires the skill of a very talented surgeon……the people he is surrounded by have proven they are less skilled than Chia…..Oilers management is devoid of a succession plan but rather populated with other failed GM’s…..Good Lord

    The Oilers will continue to struggle to score goals and arguably have less offensive ability than they did 1 year ago…think about it

    It would seem management has over estimated Draisaitl’s offensive ability and if they are wrong, we have a new train wreck on our hands

    Perfect health at all positions is required this year

  82. Chachi says:

    The fact that grown up adults with functioning brains can look at the Oilers roster the last 6 seasons and somehow come to the conclusion that it was Taylor Hall’s leadership skills that were holding the team back from improving is hilarious.

    The fact that some of those adults work in hockey for a living is even funnier. I would expect that a good GM would be able to take advantage of people that dumb when it comes time to make trades, unless of course the Oilers GM is one of those dumb people. I sure hope he isn’t, but this Hall trade is not good evidence in his favour.

  83. leadfarmer says:

    Water Fire:
    I’m not sure McLellan wants Burns again based on how he used him.

    He scores a ton but had a couple of real stinker games in the final IMO, when it matters.

    Because the best way to judge a player is by a handful of games at the end of a grueling playoff run.

  84. Ducey says:

    Dustylegnd:
    Here is the real concern, Chia has repeatedly demonstrated he will over pay to get what he wants, the book on him is that he is impatient, easy to bait and willing to pull triggers very quickly.

    The Oilers operate in a constant state of weakness and the rest of the league knows it, please know Chia will do max damage while yanking the Oilers out of their position of weakness.

    Chia is a blacksmith doing a job that requires the skill of a very talented surgeon……the people he is surrounded by have proven they are less skilled than Chia…..Oilers management is devoid of a succession plan but rather populated with other failed GM’s…..Good Lord

    The Oilers will continue to struggle to score goals and arguably have less offensive ability than they did 1 year ago…think about it

    It would seem management has over estimated Draisaitl’s offensive ability and if they are wrong, we have a new train wreck on our hands

    Perfect health at all positions is required this year

    Right,

    He sure panicked when held out for Talbot.

    Maybe when he got Maroon for salary retained from ANA?

    And this year at the draft when MTL tried to screw him into paying way too much for PK, and CLB tried get him to trade up to #3.

    I guess you figure Chia should have held out for a #1ish RHD until when, 2018? Maybe you can list all the deals he should have made instead of Hall for Lucic and Larsson.

    The only one I know of would be the signing of Demers, and we don’t even know if he ultimately wanted to sign here.

  85. Andy Dufresne says:

    You are absolutely right,,,The Conner McDavid remarks are evidence….and all the evidence should be weighed.

    digger50: Was there not just evidence that “Hall mentored me, I don’t know if I will ever be able to thank him enough for what he’s done…”that is evidence as well. Also Evidence f trust from an organization. And to your point, did Hall ever receive that?

    Lucic will lead the room, but undeniably I’ll bet Conner is a little lost right now. Call Mess?

  86. leadfarmer says:

    Younger Oil,

    I like Barrie, but if you are trading Nuge for Barrie you have to decide if you like 2 teenagers as your two top centers and then Latestube and BeLander as your center depth chart or keeping Nuge and having Fayne as your 2nd pairing RHD. Although it would be nice to fix our Defense in one offseason. Despite what some say a team of
    Klefbom Larsson
    Sekera Barrie
    Nurse Davidson
    Reinhart Fayne

    is a defensive corps that is pretty good and should be getting better and is in the McDavid Core

  87. Andy Dufresne says:

    Reasonable point. Which comes first the chicken or the egg? Which comes first Winning or Leadership?

    In my experience it goes in this order, Plan , Control, Monitor, Lead

    If you have a good plan, and you execute it well, and you measure your results (in a continuos feedback loop), and you have excellent leadership…..then you stand a reasonable chance of winning.

    (and the loop does not work in reverse order)

    dustrock:
    Andy Dufresne,

    The other issue is that nothing solves a locker room problem like winning.

    If the Oilers happened to put a competitive team together in the last few years and even squeaked into the playoffs, we likely wouldn’t hear about any locker room trouble.

    Everyone gets frustrated with a losing season.I can’t imagine year after year.

  88. rickithebear says:

    There are 14 centers who faced top 30 comp in each of the last 3 seasons.

    Player – avg Center comp RK – 15- 16 EVP/60 – 14-15 – 13-14 – AVG EVP/60 for all 3
    Toews – 6.7 avg C comp- 1.58 – 2.15 – 2.35 – 2.03 AVG EVP/60
    Couturier – 7.7 avg – 1.96 – 1.36 – 1.52 – 1.58 avg
    Little – 8.7 avg – 1.90 – 1.94 – 2.09 – 1.97 avg
    O’rielly – 8.7 avg – 1.35 – 1.94 – 1.91 – 1.75 avg
    J. Staal – 9.0 avg – 1.29 – 1.12 – 1.19 – 1.21 avg
    Stepan – 10.3 avg – 2.19 – 2.27 – 1.83 – 2.08 avg
    Kesler – 11.0 avg – 1.39 – 1.37 – 1.30 – 1.35 avg
    Bergeron – 12.3 avg – 1.93 – 1.95 – 2.27 – 2.01 avg
    H. sedin – 13.7avg – 1.74 – 1.79 – 1.85 – 1.79 avg
    Zajac – 14.0 avg – 1.21 – 0.74 – 1.52 – 1.17 avg
    RNH – 14.7 – 1.36 – 1.92 – 1.50 – 1.62 avg
    Datsyuk – 18.0 avg – 1.31 – 2.01 – 1.95 – 1.73 avg
    Thorton – 19.0 avg – 2.41 – 1.72 – 2.50 – 2.21 avg
    F. Nielson – 21.0 avg – 1.35 – 1.39 – 1.90 – 1.55 avg

    would love to see RNH get 2nd or lower comp this year.
    so he can rack at 1.00+ PPG rate he has against non 1st comp.

  89. Statsman says:

    Andy Dufresne:
    My takeaway from the Tychkowski article is “Accountability and Leadership”…MUSIC!!!!!

    As a season ticket holder, one of the things that bothered me the most was watching the Oilers get dominatedby another team ( in humialting fashion) due in part to their own poor performance ( ZERO on the give a shit meter) and then as a fan, naively expecting that thier pride would kick in and they’ed come out flying in the next game at least for the first 10 minutes…..but…….no…..they would come out flat ….as if the humiliation they suffered the last game was just part of the routine that is Oilers Hockey.

    SO, not wanting to pick a scab of a wound that is still healing, and not to lay this at the feet of Taylor Hall who on most nights was the best Oiler on the ice, but

    1) Hall gets traded for a less than equivalant return
    2) After meeting Chia, Hall himself calls the trade an indictment of him personally as a player
    3) When called out in public near the end of the 2014 season (by the GM MacT) to step up as leaders, Hall (and Eberle) state in public that they prefer to let thier play on the ice speak for them. ( as opposed to “locker room leadership”)
    4) Taylor is never given the C ( while guys like Landeskog are given the C at age 19)
    5) Team goes through 5 coaches and there are rumblings of some of the stars being potential coach killers
    6) For all his talent, heart and desire, there are signs of pouting, tantrums, reluctance to mature into a two way player, which does not fit with the NHL image of a leader
    7) His falling down ( Taylor Fallsy) which became part of his persona, did not fit with the NHL image of a leader
    8) Despite the obvious talent level, Hall is continuosly left of Team Canada rosters.
    9) When he is finally traded the team coach sad to see Hall go but is “ECSTATIC” about Halls replacement, who above all brings “Accountability and Leadership” to the dressing room

    Is it possible that we as fans who viewed Taylor as the best player on the ice most nights, and who loved not only his skills but his passion for the game. Who adopted him as our deliverer and the face of the franchise, were perhaps blinded to the degree to which his shortcomings were viewed in hockey management circles as being very important?

    Was it a preceived lack of leadership that ultimately sent Hall out of own?

    I know it’s sacrilege to speak ill of Hall on this site given his undeniable talent as a river pusher and his obvious passion for the game, but is our love for the guy blinding us to what could be a significant part of the reason he was moved?Forest for the trees….hiding in plain sight…and all of that stuff?

    Ecstatic about Leadership and Accountability suggests it might be.

    (I am not speaking here to the charachter of Taylor Hall or my personal views about the player but rather to the nature of the trade)

    IMO, lack of leadership was just one of the reasons that Hall was traded.

    I think that Chia really wanted to change the “culture” in the room once he got a close-up look at the team. What better way to change things than to trade the perceived leader of old cluster.

    As well, I heard rumblings from people close to the management group that Hall was uncoachable.
    What I mean by that is that he seemed to want to do things his own way, irrespective of what the coaches wanted him to do. For instance, they would tell him not to do things that would inevitably lead to turnovers in dangerous spots (i.e. either blue line or his own end). He would comply for a period or two and then revert back to his “own” way of doing things. This, apparently, did not sit well with the coaches and management.

    I don’t really think that Hall was a “cancer” in the dressing room or on the ice…he was just the poster-boy for the existing culture and Chia felt that needed to change. Plus, we really needed a good right-handed defenceman and Eberle or RNH wasn’t getting that.

  90. Hall of Shame says:

    blainer: There really are a few people here who need to move on from the Hall trade. I have.

    I don’t think “need” means what you think it means. They need to or you need them to?

    Passed your plea to an old friend Eliza to see if she had any advice for you, but all she said was: “Have you asked anyone else”. Very elusive that one. But her B.F.F. A.L.I.C.E scored a bit better on the Turing test: ” Try to be less subjective. Alright then.” She has a point.

  91. Dustylegnd says:

    Andy Dufresne:
    What book? I’d like to read it.

    You’re disparaging remarks are utter nonsense.

    I think you can make the point you are trying to make without the slanderous remarks. Advice from Tom Skerritt in “A River Runs Throught It” ….”Now go back and write the same message in half the words”……

    (leave out the slander, it adds nothing to you’re argument and weakens your credibility)

    Slander

    the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person’s reputation.
    “he is suing the TV network for slander”

    Fact: Chia took very little time to make the Seguin trade and was utterly fleeced, the Bruins now have next nothing to show for that trade and Seguin is not even in his prime

    Jim Nill

    “I think the big thing that people need to realize is we’re talking some pretty good players here. I know Tyler Seguin is a big, big part of this trade, a big name plus Peverley, but Loui Eriksson from our end is a very good player and probably a little bit hidden down here in Dallas. Boston knew that, and they knew that he’s a big piece of their puzzle, and I know he’s going to be a big hit for Boston going forward.”

    Does the above quote from the opposing GM who has traded for 1 of the 2 top picks in the 2010 NHL draft sound at all familiar?

    Fact: Chia put himself in cap hell in Boston and was “forced” to trade Johnny Boychuck RHD with a canon and tough as hell…return 2nd and 3rd round pick…brilliant

    Chia on the trade of Boychuck

    “You know it’s about making the team better now, tomorrow, the next day, the next day. Arguably this doesn’t make us better now, obviously. But it’s something when I look at it in a series of steps, I think it was the right move.”

    The cost to acquire Reinhart was nearly identical to the price of Gudbranson. The centerpiece of the return in both trades was a first-round pick—the No. 16 selection in Edmonton’s case, McCann (the 24th overall pick in 2014) in Vancouver’s. Both deals also included a No. 33 selection. The Canucks paid a little more, in that they moved a young player rather than a pick and added the swap of later selections, but the purchase price was close.

    At the same age, Gudbranson was far more proven. Despite some injury issues and a lockout, the 2010 No. 3 pick had played 169 major-league games and only two in the minors. He was Florida’s No. 5 defenceman at the time, and despite some concern about his shot metrics lately he’d managed a 52 percent Fenwick rating that year while playing with a revolving door of partners.

    Remind me again, which trade has Chia won in the past 5 years?

    Fact: MacT helped run Oilers into the dirt
    Fact: Scott Howson helped run the Columbus Blue Jackets into the dirt

    I have a right to my opinion, if you don’t like my opinion thats fine but save the dramatic and false accusations of Slander…it is un becoming.

    I will use as many words as I see fit when I choose to make posts, if you find my writing too arduous to read, don’t read what I post

  92. Water Fire says:

    Some non-Oiler fans I know thought Hall would be traded simply because McDavid came and Hall was used to being the top dog. Totally not surprised by the trade. Interesting viewpoint.

  93. Andy Dufresne says:

    This all seems very reasonable to me. I would second your opinion that I also don’t think Hall was any kind of cancer in the room. All of your reasoning is persuasive. Not necessarily fact…..but very persuasive and reasoned opinion.

    Statsman: IMO, lack of leadership was just one of the reasons that Hall was traded.

    I think that Chia really wanted to change the “culture” in the room once he got a close-up look at the team. What better way to change things than to trade the perceived leader of old cluster.

    As well, I heard rumblings from people close to the management group that Hall was uncoachable.
    What I mean by that is that he seemed to want to do things his own way, irrespective of what the coaches wanted him to do. For instance, they would tell him not to do things that would inevitably lead to turnovers in dangerous spots (i.e. either blue line or his own end). He would comply for a period or two and then revert back to his “own” way of doing things. This, apparently, did not sit well with the coaches and management.

    I don’t really think that Hall was a “cancer” in the dressing room or on the ice…he was just the poster-boy for the existing culture and Chia felt that needed to change. Plus, we really needed a good right-handed defenceman and Eberle or RNH wasn’t getting that.

  94. Andy Dufresne says:

    Thank you for re-writing your post and removing the nonsensical disparging remarks.

    It’s much more interesting written this way.

    (no sarcasm here…I really mean it)

    Dustylegnd: Slander

    the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person’s reputation.
    “he is suing the TV network for slander”

    Fact: Chia took very little time to make the Seguin trade and was utterly fleeced, the Bruins now have next nothing to show for that trade and Seguin is not even in his prime

    Jim Nill

    “I think the big thing that people need to realize is we’re talking some pretty good players here. I know Tyler Seguin is a big, big part of this trade, a big name plus Peverley, but Loui Eriksson from our end is a very good player and probably a little bit hidden down here in Dallas. Boston knew that, and they knew that he’s a big piece of their puzzle, and I know he’s going to be a big hit for Boston going forward.”

    Does the above quote from the opposing GM who has traded for 1 of the 2 top picks in the 2010 NHL draft sound at all familiar?

    Fact: Chia put himself in cap hell in Boston and was “forced” to trade Johnny Boychuck RHD with a canon and tough as hell…return 2nd and 3rd round pick…brilliant

    Chia on the trade of Boychuck

    “You know it’s about making the team better now, tomorrow, the next day, the next day. Arguably this doesn’t make us better now, obviously. But it’s something when I look at it in a series of steps, I think it was the right move.”

    The cost to acquire Reinhart was nearly identical to the price of Gudbranson. The centerpiece of the return in both trades was a first-round pick—the No. 16 selection in Edmonton’s case, McCann (the 24th overall pick in 2014) in Vancouver’s. Both deals also included a No. 33 selection. The Canucks paid a little more, in that they moved a young player rather than a pick and added the swap of later selections, but the purchase price was close.

    At the same age, Gudbranson was far more proven. Despite some injury issues and a lockout, the 2010 No. 3 pick had played 169 major-league games and only two in the minors. He was Florida’s No. 5 defenceman at the time, and despite some concern about his shot metrics lately he’d managed a 52 percent Fenwick rating that year while playing with a revolving door of partners.

    Remind me again, which trade has Chia won in the past 5 years?

    Fact:MacT helped run Oilers into the dirt
    Fact: Scott Howson helped run the Columbus Blue Jackets into the dirt

    I have a right to my opinion, if you don’t like my opinion thats fine but save the dramatic and false accusations of Slander…it is un becoming.

    I will use as many words as I see fit when I chose to make posts, if you find my writing too arduous to read, don’t read what I post

  95. rickithebear says:

    Ducey: He sure panicked when held out for Talbot.

    Sather told the NY papersMact had arranged that trade and asset count with Sather while he was still manager.

    That he let Edmonton have Talbot cause MacT was still with the org.

    This pissed off Rangers fans!

    Held out is a BS narrative.

    Just like PC getting Mcdavid and Talbot.

    SORRY LT?

    How stupid do you have to be to say no to those lying in your lap!

    Here is a free bottle of Yamazaki;
    no thanks!

    When the hitachi guys visted the satellite staion.
    I knew I was going to get a bottle of Japan’s best!

  96. Dustylegnd says:

    Andy Dufresne,

    shame on me for assuming that the freakishly hard core Oilers fans that visit this post would at all be familiar with Chia’s recent performance as a GM

  97. Statsman says:

    Andy Dufresne:
    This all seems very reasonable to me. I would second your opinion that I also don’t think Hall was any kind of cancer in the room.All of your reasoning is persuasive. Not necessarily fact…..but very persuasive and reasoned opinion.

    You are quite correct…these are not necessarily facts as Chia does not speak to me personally about such things.

    However, working as a statistician for the home Oiler games for the past 15 years, I do have the chance to glean information from others “in the know”. My “sources” throughout the years have proven to be quite reliable and my original post reflects only what I have heard from them.

    Again, it is only hearsay when it doesn’t come from the people making the decisions, but some scuttlebutt is worth more than others!

  98. Connoreah says:

    digger50: Was there not just evidence that “Hall mentored me, I don’t know if I will ever be able to thank him enough for what he’s done…”that is evidence as well. Also Evidence f trust from an organization. And to your point, did Hall ever receive that?

    Lucic will lead the room, but undeniably I’ll bet Conner is a little lost right now. Call Mess?

    Yes I would expect McDavid to say nothing less of his roommate and friend. And I sincerely believe that he meant it.

    Having said that, I also think that Chia and TMac are smart enough to know that when you have a player like Connor, as a teenager he needs real veteran role models that know how to win, command respect in the locker room and, as Chia said, are true professionals. I think that was a part of the equation when deciding who would be moved for the RHD. That is in no way an attack on Hall, simply an opinion that Hall didn’t provide the “type” of leadership that they want for McDavid. Just my opinion.

  99. Connoreah says:

    Dustylegnd:
    Here is the real concern, Chia has repeatedly demonstrated he will over pay to get what he wants, the book on him is that he is impatient, easy to bait and willing to pull triggers very quickly.

    The Oilers operate in a constant state of weakness and the rest of the league knows it, please know Chia will do max damage while yanking the Oilers out of their position of weakness.

    Chia is a blacksmith doing a job that requires the skill of a very talented surgeon……the people he is surrounded by have proven they are less skilled than Chia…..Oilers management is devoid of a succession plan but rather populated with other failed GM’s…..Good Lord

    The Oilers will continue to struggle to score goals and arguably have less offensive ability than they did 1 year ago…think about it

    It would seem management has over estimated Draisaitl’s offensive ability and if they are wrong, we have a new train wreck on our hands

    Perfect health at all positions is required this year

    I can’t say I agree with, or understand, a single point you made here.

    Chia very impatient? Weren’t many Oiler fans demanding change last year, prior to the trade deadline? Didn’t Chia say he wanted a full year to evaluate before making any decisions (and follow through on that)?

    Didn’t Chia have a deal lined up at the draft, only to delay long enough to land JP?

    The Oilers will have far less offense this year, even though they replaced a 62 pt LW with a 55 pt LW, added a puck moving dman and a draft pick that could challenge for the Calder?

    Sorry, I don’t understand your assessment at all. If anything, I think Chia waited too long to pull the trigger and the Oilers will very likely put up more points this year, based on the changes we’ve seen to date.

  100. Water Fire says:

    leadfarmer: Because the best way to judge a player is by a handful of games at the end of agrueling playoff run.

    To me it’s the best time. When the championship is won. His 75 points don’t mean anything much without the Cup IMO.

  101. Andy Dufresne says:

    People here are free to draw their own conclusions. But I for one give added weight to your posts and opinions based on your experience.

    Statsman: You are quite correct…these are not necessarily facts as Chia does not speak to me personally about such things.

    However, working as a statistician for the home Oiler games for the past 15 years, I dohave the chance to glean information from others “in the know”.My “sources” throughout the years have proven to be quite reliable and my original post reflects only what I have heard from them.

    Again, it is only hearsay when it doesn’t come from the people making the decisions, but some scuttlebutt is worth more than others!

  102. Gret99zky says:

    I always believed it would be Hall that was traded. Also believed we would lose the trade. I think the Nuge stays. It will be Eberle that gets moved, IMO.

  103. Andy Dufresne says:

    On the topic of Leadership.

    I would love for Conner to be made the captain ( if he wants it at his young age)

    But if the Oilers happen to choose Lucic as the Captain….I think that will be a big tell on why Lucic is here and what they view as leadership.

    Connoreah: Yes I would expect McDavid to say nothing less of his roommate and friend.And I sincerely believe that he meant it.

    Having said that, I also think that Chia and TMac are smart enough to know that when you have a player like Connor, as a teenager he needs real veteran role models that know how to win, command respect in the locker room and, as Chia said, are true professionals.I think that was a part of the equation when deciding who would be moved for the RHD.That is in no way an attack on Hall, simply an opinion that Hall didn’t provide the “type” of leadership that they want for McDavid.Just my opinion.

  104. Dustylegnd says:

    Ducey: Right,

    He sure panicked when held out for Talbot.

    And this year at the draft when MTL tried to screw him into paying way too much for PK, and CLB tried get him to trade up to #3.

    I guess you figure Chia should have held out for a #1ish RHD until when, 2018? Maybe you can list all the deals he should have made instead of Hall for Lucic and Larsson.

    The only one I know of would be the signing of Demers, and we don’t even know if he ultimately wanted to sign here.

    Nobody said anything about panic but rather impatience and a willingness to over pay

    He gets no credit for the Talbot deal

    Deeming the Subban trade as too expensive and choosing to pass on the Columbus draft pick swap proposal would both be examples of minimum expectation for the weakest of NHL GM’s no? Seriously

    The Maroon deal reminds me of the deals he used to do when he was in Boston dealing from a position of strength well done Chia, however players like Maroon don’t win you championships, players like Nathan Horton win you championships,

    The Hall and Reinhart deals remind me of the Seguin and Boychuck deals, if you expect to win championships you need to get more for less, not less for more no exceptions

    The Irony here is that Chia started out by getting more for less in Bosotn

    Nathan Horton and Gregory Campbell for Dennis Wideman, a 2010 1st Round Pick (#15 Derek Forbort), and a 2011 3rd Round Pick (#91 Kyle Rau)

    Dennis Seidenberg and Matt Bartkowski for Byron Bitz, Craig Weller, and a 2010 2nd Round Pick (#36 Alexander Petrovich)

    Johnny Boychuk for Matt Hendricks

    Chia has gone cold and seems at his worst when he is in a position of weakness

  105. Atc-Nate says:

    Maybe someone else posted on this but regarding the verbiage on Hall/Demers and Larsson/Lucic, I think this comparison is all wrong.

    Who said Demers was signing here? IMO, the situation is actually Hall for Larsson/Lucic. Demers is not part of the equation. Hall for Larsson straight up is an ugly trade. But when Chia knew Lucic was signing here, he figured (hypothetically) that the GA differential from improving the defense with Larsson and the Lucic offense he could balance the loss of Hall. That was the price of getting a solid top 4 defender.

    You don’t have to like the trade (I certainly don’t ), but you have to like the improved balance.

    In regards to not having a second driver like Hall is, I would suggest there’s at least one in the pipeline. Maybe Leon becomes that. Maybe the Nuge. He’s still SO young. All sorts of time to become the next Datsyuk. Maybe Jesse P. Who knows, but the next couple years will bring the development of a driver. Book it.

  106. Snowman says:

    Dustylegnd,

    Why doesn’t he get credit for the Talbot deal?

    He negotiated that trade. He won that trade. Seems to me he deserves the credit for it.

  107. Pouzar says:

    rickithebear:
    There are 14 centers who faced top 30 comp in each of the last 3 seasons.

    Player – avg Center comp RK – 15- 16 EVP/60 – 14-15 – 13-14 – AVG EVP/60 for all 3
    Toews – 6.7 avg C comp- 1.58 – 2.15 – 2.35 – 2.03 AVG EVP/60
    Couturier – 7.7 avg – 1.96 – 1.36 – 1.52 – 1.58 avg
    Little – 8.7 avg – 1.90 – 1.94 – 2.09 – 1.97 avg
    O’rielly – 8.7 avg – 1.35 – 1.94 – 1.91 – 1.75 avg
    J. Staal – 9.0 avg – 1.29 – 1.12 – 1.19 – 1.21 avg
    Stepan – 10.3 avg – 2.19 – 2.27 – 1.83 – 2.08 avg
    Kesler – 11.0 avg – 1.39 – 1.37 – 1.30 – 1.35 avg
    Bergeron – 12.3 avg – 1.93 – 1.95 – 2.27 – 2.01 avg
    H. sedin – 13.7avg – 1.74 – 1.79 – 1.85 – 1.79 avg
    Zajac – 14.0 avg – 1.21 – 0.74 – 1.52 – 1.17 avg
    RNH – 14.7 – 1.36 – 1.92 – 1.50 – 1.62 avg
    Datsyuk – 18.0 avg – 1.31 – 2.01 – 1.95 – 1.73 avg
    Thorton – 19.0 avg – 2.41 – 1.72 – 2.50 – 2.21 avg
    F. Nielson – 21.0 avg – 1.35 – 1.39 – 1.90 – 1.55 avg

    would love to see RNH get 2nd or lower comp this year.
    so he can rack at 1.00+ PPG rate he has against non 1st comp.

    Love me some Bear.

  108. Ducey says:

    rickithebear: Sather told the NY papersMact had arranged that trade and asset count with Sather while he was still manager.

    That he let Edmonton have Talbot cause MacT was still with the org.

    This pissed off Rangers fans!

    Held out is a BS narrative.

    Just like PC getting Mcdavid and Talbot.

    SORRY LT?

    How stupid do you have to be to say no to those lying in your lap!

    Here is a free bottle of Yamazaki;
    no thanks!

    When the hitachi guys visted the satellite staion.
    I knew I was going to get a bottle of Japan’s best!

    So that Talbot trade was really done by MacT?

    I don’t recall ever hearing any of this Ricki. Do you have some links to credible sources or is it just written on a tree in your neck of the woods?

    If it was all worked out 4 months before, why did they wait until the draft to make the trade?

  109. Eh Team says:

    Andy Dufresne: But if the Oilers happen to choose Lucic as the Captain….I think that will be a big tell on why Lucic is here and what they view as leadership.

    What could go wrong with an ex-Bruin as captain….

  110. Ducey says:

    Snowman:
    Dustylegnd,

    Why doesn’t he get credit for the Talbot deal?

    He negotiated that trade. He won that trade. Seems to me he deserves the credit for it.

    It would upset the negative narrative. Just like he gets no credit for Maroon because he isn’t Nathan Horton.

    I expect Dusty to come out with his master plan to fix the D and minute now.

  111. Dustylegnd says:

    Connoreah,

    I would say Hall is more like an 85 point left wing on a good team so the notional swap of Hall for Lucic, (Lucic having only played on great teams), will in fact be a downgrade in point production when comparing these 2 players

    Draisaitl’s 5 x 5 per 60 production drops dramatically when he doesn’t have Hall on his left wing

    Don’t expect much production from an 18 year old winger, if he is exceptional he may score 40 points

    While Larsson may grow into a puck moving D man he has never produced much in the way of points, and quote all the advanced stats you want, at the end of the day somebody on Edmonton’s defence needs to contribute points

    When it comes to being impatient you can’t tell me Chia could not have found better value in the Seguin deal he pulled the trigger damn the consequences and their have been consequences

  112. Frank the dog says:

    Ducey: So that Talbot trade was really done by MacT?

    I don’t recall ever hearing any of this Ricki. Do you have some links to credible sources or is it just written on a tree in your neck of the woods?

    If it was all worked out 4 months before, why did they wait until the draft to make the trade?

    Because Sather wanted to wait closer to his retirement because he knew he was going take flack for the trade. Sather, Lowe and MacT are all BOB’s. Sather doesn’t know or care for Chia. So RTB’s likely correct on this one. Sather actually said it was a retirement present for his old team or something like that.

  113. leadfarmer says:

    Water Fire: To me it’s the best time. When the championship is won. His 75 points don’t mean anything much without the Cup IMO.

    Because you have no idea how healthy he was. Some of these guys can barely walk yet they throw themselves out on the ice every shift. Plus if you use the Finals only to scout players you should rate everyone on the Sharks except Jones as one step above absolute trash because thats how they played

  114. Andy Dufresne says:

    and he’s the second youngest player on the list,

    rickithebear:
    There are 14 centers who faced top 30 comp in each of the last 3 seasons.

    Player – avg Center comp RK – 15- 16 EVP/60 – 14-15 – 13-14 – AVG EVP/60 for all 3
    Toews – 6.7 avg C comp- 1.58 – 2.15 – 2.35 – 2.03 AVG EVP/60
    Couturier – 7.7 avg – 1.96 – 1.36 – 1.52 – 1.58 avg
    Little – 8.7 avg – 1.90 – 1.94 – 2.09 – 1.97 avg
    O’rielly – 8.7 avg – 1.35 – 1.94 – 1.91 – 1.75 avg
    J. Staal – 9.0 avg – 1.29 – 1.12 – 1.19 – 1.21 avg
    Stepan – 10.3 avg – 2.19 – 2.27 – 1.83 – 2.08 avg
    Kesler – 11.0 avg – 1.39 – 1.37 – 1.30 – 1.35 avg
    Bergeron – 12.3 avg – 1.93 – 1.95 – 2.27 – 2.01 avg
    H. sedin – 13.7avg – 1.74 – 1.79 – 1.85 – 1.79 avg
    Zajac – 14.0 avg – 1.21 – 0.74 – 1.52 – 1.17 avg
    RNH – 14.7 – 1.36 – 1.92 – 1.50 – 1.62 avg
    Datsyuk – 18.0 avg – 1.31 – 2.01 – 1.95 – 1.73 avg
    Thorton – 19.0 avg – 2.41 – 1.72 – 2.50 – 2.21 avg
    F. Nielson – 21.0 avg – 1.35 – 1.39 – 1.90 – 1.55 avg

    would love to see RNH get 2nd or lower comp this year.
    so he can rack at 1.00+ PPG rate he has against non 1st comp.

  115. Snowman says:

    Frank the dog: Because Sather wanted to wait closer to his retirement because he knew he was going take flack for the trade. Sather, Lowe and MacT are all BOB’s. Sather doesn’t know or care for Chia. So RTB’s likely correct on this one. Sather actually said it was a retirement present for his old team or something like that.

    Anyone who thinks Glen Sather is in the business of doing favors for old buddies must be thinking of a different Sather. You don’t stay in NHL management for as long as he did by being sentimental. He’s ruthless.

  116. GCW_69 says:

    I posted this response in the other thread, without noticing that a new post had come up, and since I put some time into cranking on it, I am going to toss it out here for consideration:

    100 games is an interesting line in the sand, but I am not sure that’s the bar we should be setting. It’s not just games played, but quality of games played.
    As a benchmark, I decided to look at 2001 to 2008 so that the majority of players would be well into their careers.

    From 2000 to 2008 there were 14 forwards who scored at 0.6 points per game, 20 forwards who played a 200 games that scored 0.5 points per game or better, and 29 that score at a rate of 0.4 points per game or better. If we set 0.5 points per game as the threshold for “impact forward” then 2 out of 3 teams should draft one. If we set the bar higher, at 0.6, we would expect half the teams to draft one impact forward every eight years.

    Over the same period, 19 teams drafted defencemen that played 300 games or more (20 if you add in Voynov who certainly would have made 300 games if not for off ice issues). Note, players like Josi are in there at 334 games and Hamonic at 395, so many are still adding to their games played total. If we set this as the bar for top four defenders. Looking at the names they all played top four for good stretches of their careers, with only one then we should expect 67% of teams to draft an impact defender over an 8 year period.

    So, if a team is doing well (emphasis on well), in my view, they should draft one impact forward and one impact defender in the second round every eight years, or at least 2 impact players.
    The last Oiler to make that cut was Petry. Looking at your list, Marincin has a shot on the defensive side, but is not a sure thing, and on the forward side its looking really grim.

    Drafting 2 impact players in the second round means your team has home grown depth. It means you have a Josi, Hamonic, Bergeron, Krejci, Neal, Stepan, Backes, Lucic, Keith, Weber in their primes at below market value.

    13 teams drafted at least 2 impact players by my criteria over the study period, and 6 more got at least one impact player, so I don’t think its unreasonable to set the bar for the Oilers to be in the top 13-15 teams, which means we should be looking for 2 impact players from every 8 year cycle.

    Looking at who they have drafted 2008-2015, I see very little hope there on two impact players emerging. And they haven’t helped themselves with trading away their picks. The 13 teams that did well averaged 10 picks over 8 years, meaning they collected 2 extra picks on average. The 2008 to 2015 Oilers went the other way with 7 picks.

  117. anonymous says:

    Frank the dog: Because Sather wanted to wait closer to his retirement because he knew he was going take flack for the trade. Sather, Lowe and MacT are all BOB’s. Sather doesn’t know or care for Chia. So RTB’s likely correct on this one. Sather actually said it was a retirement present for his old team or something like that.

    I don’t believe this for a second. He got value. Slats worked for the Rags for 20 years, would be completely unprofessional.

  118. GCW_69 says:

    HeatTreaterJoe: Klefbom – Larsson
    Sekera – Fayne
    Davidson – Jultz (Jultz < 14 minutes per game)
    Nurse

    Franson is a better choice that Schultz if the Oilers can get him from Buffalo. Franson is not a long term solution, but since Chiarelli only seems to know two ways to get long term solutions (lose big trades and free agency) I suggest we wait until next summer to address the gap more fully. By then we should have a better feel for Larsson, so we will know what the true gap is.

  119. GCW_69 says:

    Dustylegnd: Nobody said anything about panic but rather impatience and a willingness to over pay
    He gets no credit for the Talbot deal
    Deeming the Subban trade as too expensive and choosing to pass on the Columbus draft pick swap proposal would both be examples of minimum expectation for the weakest of NHL GM’s no? Seriously

    Part of his job is to convince the other team they are getting value. In other words, Chia is in part, a salesman.

    If he was willing to trade Hall, he should be been selling Montreal that Hall (and Nurse if needed) were the answers to their prayers and the Weber contract was the cap version of the devil.

    It should be disturbing that two players that fit the Oilers need perfectly were on the market (Hamilton, Subban) in consecutive summers and the Oilers were in negotiations both times only to have the teams take lesser deals than what Edmonton was willing to pay. And, on top of that, in both summers they paid a similar price for significantly less impressive players.

  120. JimmyV1965 says:

    blainer: Is that you Mact ? lol..

    IMO the single biggest addition come the fall is the subtraction of Jultz.. I feel the same about Yak but can live with the idea of playing him on CMD’s wing with Looch as those two will be possession demons.

    I would actually love for yak to take a year and play over in the KHLto help him in a late development sort of way.

    The Oil actually had 19 pts in 19 GMs after getting rid of Schultz at the trade deadline. That’s an 82 pt pace with a team that was missing up to five regulars at any given time.

  121. semi legendary rot lobster says:

    Water Fire: To me it’s the best time. When the championship is won. His 75 points don’t mean anything much without the Cup IMO.

    oil need 2 go after that j ultz fellow he has a ring must mean he’s good

  122. Andy Dufresne says:

    the vaiables in that trade were numerous. At least a dozen things occured that caused the eventual outcome.

    At about number eight on the list is this one. Flames steal Hamilton for a first, second and third round pick. Had that deal not happened, the Flames would probablely own Talbot today. Sather wanted a first round pick for Talbot and the Flames were one of the top suitors.
    We lost the Dougie sweepstakes and won Talbot. Strange thing these hockey trades.

    The narratives run from Chia being a cold blooded poker player to Sather being a beneficent humanitarian and gifting Talbot to his alma mater.

    I think the truth resides somewhere inbetween. This is how hockey lore is created. Fantastic!

    Ducey: So that Talbot trade was really done by MacT?

    I don’t recall ever hearing any of this Ricki. Do you have some links to credible sources or is it just written on a tree in your neck of the woods?

    If it was all worked out 4 months before, why did they wait until the draft to make the trade?

  123. rickithebear says:

    Snowman:
    Frank the dog,

    Barrie isn’t defensively deficient. He’s a very solid top 4D. Go read up on Woodguy’s blog.

    Defence is GA.

    1. So reducing shots from the 8.5% to 20% success shot area.
    this would be very; very; very bad shots to give up.
    He is bottom 20 of 199 dmen right on the fringe of #6-7 d results

    2. you do not want to give up a high SA count. cause that gives oponents a greater opportunity to get tHSCA shots and high shot volume in LSCA.
    this would be very bad!
    this year 33.82 SA/60 3rd worst in the league. #196 of 198 D
    Unbelievably quality Defence!

    It is dare I say Lottery worthy!

    Colarado plays with a top 8 HSCA goalie Varlamov
    .
    So bottom 20 HSCA D
    Bottom 3 SA/60
    #143 of 198 D 2.34 GA/60 with a top HSCA save% goalie.

    All this shit show of defence against bottom 2nd comp.

  124. Water Fire says:

    leadfarmer: Because you have no idea how healthy he was.Some of these guys can barely walk yet they throw themselves out on the ice every shift.Plus if you use the Finals only to scout players you should rate everyone on the Sharks except Jones as one step above absolute trash because thats how they played

    Everybody is hurt in the playoffs. Some guys still can play ok

  125. Snowman says:

    rickithebear,

    Yes and then add 50 points to his positive. Not saying he’s an elite top 4d. He can play in a top4 role and produce more than he gives up on a regular basis.

    Also Colorado is being run and coached in a totally backasswards kind of way so I’d take those stats with a grain of salt.

  126. GCW_69 says:

    I looked at next summers free agent crop on defence. It’s Kulikov, Alzner, Shattenkirk, and aging Burns and some big steaming piles of crap.

    Kulikov is the prize, but I can’t see Murray letting him hit the market, and if he does, it probably means trading Sekera or Klefbom for a righty.

    Alzner is also interesting because he price point is lower, he is a right shot, and seems to put up 20 points pretty consistently (albeit on a high scoring team)

    How would people feel if they could walk away next summer with

    Klefbom – Larsson

    Sekera – Alzner

    Davidson/Nurse – PP specialist?

  127. Fog of Warts says:

    Dustylegnd: Here is the real concern, Chia has repeatedly demonstrated he will over pay to get what he wants, the book on him is that he is impatient, easy to bait and willing to pull triggers very quickly, none of which makes much ultimate difference due to his overpowering, rose-scented aftershave.

  128. rickithebear says:

    GCW_69: It should be disturbing that two players that fit the Oilers need perfectly were on the market (Hamilton

    your needs!

    Hamilton:
    mid 2nd pair comp
    Bottom 15 HSCA D
    29.64 SA/60 #126 of 198 D bottom pair standard
    2.57 GA/60 #179 of 198 D

    Subban
    1st comp
    below average HSCA D
    31.10 SA/60 #157 of 198
    2.48GA/60 #163 of 198 D
    He little buddy you sure missed that #1 HSCA save % goalie hwo covered up that shit show you call defence!

    Crack heads have needs also!

    Just like these to 2 dmen its bad for you!

  129. Vaclav says:

    LT,

    Davidson was hurt at the end of March and since then there has been virtually nothing reported on the extent of his injury, if he required surgery or what his recovery time is. Have you spoken to anyone that can shed some light on this and if he will be fully recovered for training camp?

  130. digger50 says:

    Connoreah: Yes I would expect McDavid to say nothing less of his roommate and friend.And I sincerely believe that he meant it.

    Having said that, I also think that Chia and TMac are smart enough to know that when you have a player like Connor, as a teenager he needs real veteran role models that know how to win, command respect in the locker room and, as Chia said, are true professionals.I think that was a part of the equation when deciding who would be moved for the RHD.That is in no way an attack on Hall, simply an opinion that Hall didn’t provide the “type” of leadership that they want for McDavid.Just my opinion.

    Opinions are fine of course. I do want to pursue the conversation a little more.

    by saying McDavid needs a “real” veteran role model, a “true professional” you of course insult Hall. Hall has been painted as a loser and he should feel slighted as that is a real fact. He was the face of the Oilers – the losing Oilers – associated with his face.

    Some folks say “Connor will be the leader now…” Which is true on the ice but highly unlikely in the locker room. Rookies are not generally “that” guy who is loud in the room. Given Connors nature or what I have seen of it we can expect a quiet captain if Oilers go with him.

    Similar with Hall. Im told he has not been captain on his previous teams, despite being the best player. More evidence not of his character but of his personality. He just is not “that guy” and those that wanted to push him there were then disappointed.

    I do hope Hall does well in New Jersey.

  131. rickithebear says:

    Alzner:
    1st comp
    .58 EVA/60
    top 30 HSCA D
    26.40 SA/60 #37 of 198 D
    1.75 GA/60 #15 of 198 D
    5.18 PKGA/60 #29 of 198 D

    So yeah that last elite Defensive Dman I could never remember to add to my list of Expected GA D to chase.
    I remember now!

    It is Karl Alzner!

    UFA next year!

  132. flygoalie says:

    Andy Dufresne,

    You present an interesting string of thought, I have a similar view. While I consider Hall an elite NHL winger, I never considered him the foundation of the Oilers future success. I often draw comparisons to another elite player in his time that “pushed the river” ultimately to nowhere as he lacked the ability or desire to lead whole heartedly, “Dany Heatley”. JMO.

  133. JimmyV1965 says:

    Andy Dufresne:
    Your making my point for me.

    I asked a question. For all that Hall brings, is his Leadership questioned by NHL managers? and is it possible that this in someway contributes to the percieved lack of return in the trade.

    You can’t whine and bitch about the return in the trade and then refuse to consider the “possible”rational for the disparity in the return.

    Nowhere did I blame Taylor Hall for the problems of the team. I pointed to eveidence that there may be a perception of Hall as lacking in the leadership dept.

    Dispute my evidence if you like, thats why I posted it. But dont draw false conclusions that I did not make.

    If Taylor Hall’s leadership is judged deficient because the Oilers sucked that too is a huge mistake. He’s won at every level other than the NHL and is the only player to win the Memorial Cup MVP twice. If other GMs and hockey execs think Hall lacks leadership, the only place that narrative can logically originate is the Oilers themselves. That speaks more to the leadership of Oiler mngt than it does Hall.

    No offence, but this whole leadership thing is so low brow. Kessel was the posterboy for being selfish and he did fine in the playoffs this year. Expecting a teenager to come in and lead a team is so silly that even typing the sentence is ridiculous.

  134. leadfarmer says:

    Water Fire: Everybody is hurt in the playoffs. Some guys still can play ok

    That’s my whole point. You don’t know how injured some of these guys are. Some are more injured than others, so basing your entire scouting on a few games over all of the games they have played prior to that is silly. Yes they should be weighted a little more heavily then a regular season game, but that’s all.

    You shouldnt throw a bunch of money at Burns next offseason cause he will be 32 already, not because he didnt have one good playoff series . He was a PPG player in the playoffs even with a poor Finals.

  135. Ducey says:

    GCW_69: Part of his job is to convince the other team they are getting value.In other words, Chia is in part, a salesman.

    If he was willing to trade Hall, he should be been selling Montreal that Hall (and Nurse if needed) were the answers to their prayers and the Weber contract was the cap version of the devil.

    It should be disturbing that two players that fit the Oilers need perfectly were on the market (Hamilton, Subban) in consecutive summers and the Oilers were in negotiations both times only to have the teams take lesser deals than what Edmonton was willing to pay.And, on top of that, in both summers they paid a similar price for significantly less impressive players.

    MTL was smart enough to know that if they traded PK and got back Hall + #4 + ? they would have a huge hole at RHD that Petry wasn’t going to fill. The team that gets the 1 in the 3 for 1 gets the best player.

    And you think Weber is a worse return than Hall +?. I don’t think so. No way NSH trades Weber for Hall + PLD + any Oilers Dman.

    And to blame Chia for not convincing the guys that just fired him is a little rich.

  136. Centre of attention says:

    Assumptions, assumptions everywhere.

  137. McJeetz says:

    All the Nuge for Barrie talk has me nervous. I think people need to remember that Draisaitl has has 2 incredible months of hockey as an Oiler. That is it. The rest of his professional hockey career is pretty pedestrian. Not saying He wont become an impact player, just he isnt there yet.

    This Season, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Nuge against the other teams top competition. Amusing no more trades I’m betting:

    Pouliot Nuge Eberle vs #1 competition
    Lucic McDavid TBA (posibly Draisaitl or Yak) vs #2 comp

    This sets up a nice 3rd line:
    Maroon Draisaitl Puljujarvi vs soft competition allowing these guys to find their own grove at the pro level with some shelter.

    I’m hoping anyways.

    One more thought. With 4 major changes this summer so far (plus Puljujarvi, Lucuc, Larson and minus Hall) maybe Chairelli would be smart to see what he has before any more major changes. There could be some really good things already here that needs to be seen first. There are also almost always surprises at training camp.

  138. Henry says:

    JimmyV1965: If Taylor Hall’s leadership is judged deficient because the Oilers sucked that too is a huge mistake. He’s won at every level other than the NHL and is the only player to win the Memorial Cup MVP twice. If other GMs and hockey execs think Hall lacks leadership, the only place that narrative can logically originate is the Oilers themselves. That speaks more to the leadership of Oiler mngt than it does Hall.

    No offence, but this whole leadership thing is so low brow. Kessel was the posterboy for being selfish and he did fine in the playoffs this year. Expecting a teenager to come in and lead a team is so silly that even typing the sentence is ridiculous.

    Jesus Christ didn’t start leading his ministry until he was 30.

  139. godot10 says:

    Chiarelli was rebooting the rebuild. Rebuild 2.0 out. Rebuild 3.0 in. Hall was the only thing of value that he could trade to reboot the rebuild properly, and for who he had a reasonable replacement.

    It had nothing to do with Hall’s character or leadership. It wasn’t personal. It was just business.

    It was unfair to Hall. And unfair to the fans who invested in Hall. But Chiarelli was new. He wasn’t invested in Hall. He could make a ruthless calculation about how to reset the roster to maximize the probability of quick and sustained success.

    So Hall for Larsson. Lucic in. Larsson, Klefbom, Nurse, Davidson, and Reinhart as a young defensive core behind McDavid, Draisaitl, and Nugent-Hopkins. And Talbot. The most proven way to quick and sustained successful teams are built around a goaltender, a defense, and centres, surrounded by competent vets. Lucic, Sekera, Eberle.

  140. Connoreah says:

    Dustylegnd,

    Last year Hall played every single game surrounded by players like Eberle, Draisaitl, McDavid and Nuge. He barely broke 60 points. These are all high end offensive players. Jersey finished ahead of Edmonton last year, so do you expect him to score more points in Jersey next year (i.e. more than 60-65)? I’m genuinely curious, who does Hall need to play with in order to score 85 points, as you suggest?

    You’re referencing a single season for Draisaitl and suggesting he can’t score points without Hall. Isn’t that a bit premature? And by that logic, last year Hall’s point production fell off a cliff whenever McDavid was in the lineup. Does that mean Hall can’t score points when McDavid is on the roster?

    You suggest that 18 year old players, if exceptional, might reach 40 points. What is that conclusion based on? Dylan Larkin scored 45 points last year as an 18 year old. I would venture a guess to say that JP is more exceptional than Larkin. Would you disagree?

    And yes, someone on the defense needs to produce points. But more importantly, someone on the defense needs to be able to defend, move the puck out of the zone, reduce GA. Larsson is pretty damn good at all those things, no?

    And finally, yes, I can tell you that Chia couldn’t find a better deal for Seguin. Because he didn’t. As empowering as it may be to sit at home and think about how brilliant we would be as NHL GMs, I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that perhaps you and I have zero knowledge of what the actual market is at any given point. Zero understanding of how difficult it is to build a roster in the NHL. We base our opinions on what the “sources” tweet, what the fans say, what the latest rumour is on twitter. If you want to believe you could do a better job than Chia, extract more value for our assets – more power to you! Share all your brilliant insights on the world wide web. Just don’t expect everyone to agree with you. I choose to believe that the guy running our team, the guy who built a Stanley Cup Champion with years of experience actually doing the job knows better than you. Sorry.

  141. kinger_OIL says:

    rickithebear: Defence is GA.

    1.So reducing shots from the 8.5% to 20% success shot area.
    this would be very; very; very bad shots to give up.
    He is bottom 20 of 199 dmen right on the fringe of #6-7 d results

    2. you do not want to give up a high SA count. cause that gives oponents a greater opportunity to get tHSCA shots and high shot volume in LSCA.
    this would be very bad!
    this year 33.82 SA/60 3rd worst in the league. #196 of 198 D
    Unbelievably quality Defence!

    It is dare I say Lottery worthy!

    Colarado plays with a top 8 HSCA goalie Varlamov
    .
    So bottom 20 HSCA D
    Bottom3 SA/60
    #143 of 198 D 2.34 GA/60 with a top HSCA save% goalie.

    All this shit show of defence against bottom 2nd comp.

    Ricki – In terms of the actual skill-set of the D your HSCA identifies, what is it that these D do, to make them better that those with bottom HSCA? I’m trying to get a sense of the “type” of D that fit your model? How do they prevent the high danger shots for instance?

  142. Kris11 says:

    Andy Dufresne:

    Is it possible that we as fans who viewed Taylor as the best player on the ice most nights, and who loved not only his skills but his passion for the game. Who adopted him as our deliverer and the face of the franchise, were perhaps blinded to the degree to which his shortcomings were viewed in hockey management circles as being very important

    His short comings? Lack of poise? Too Sheldon Souray-ish. Won’t get rid of his sideburns? Communist leanings? Lack of clutch grititude?

    None of these are relevant to the trade. Even if he were a problem in the room, a la Metta World Peace, it is still a bad trade. Players with poor attitudes who drive the play in advanced stats and plain old goals are worth a lot in trades. And whether he was a problem “in the room” is all speculation grounded in an evidence base that is far to thin to draw any likely conclusions.

  143. GCW_69 says:

    Ducey: MTL was smart enough to know that if they traded PK and got back Hall + #4 + ? they would have a huge hole at RHD that Petry wasn’t going to fill. The team that gets the 1 in the 3 for 1 gets the best player.

    And you think Weber is a worse return than Hall +?. I don’t think so. No way NSH trades Weber for Hall + PLD + any Oilers Dman.

    And to blame Chia for not convincing the guys that just fired him is a little rich.

    Weber is on the decline and hitting an age where the decline can come fast and furious and he is signed to the end of time. Hall is in his prime on a great contract. Nurse is a highly thought of defensive prospect who was recently the best defender at the World Juniors. If you think Weber is worth more, good on you, but I sure don’t.

    Just because he got fired, doesn’t mean you can’t make a business deal together. Self interest should take over, and getting Peter to pay more, even if its a little bit, should be good for Boston.

  144. GCW_69 says:

    rickithebear: Subban
    1st comp
    below average HSCA D
    31.10 SA/60 #157 of 198
    2.48GA/60 #163 of 198 D
    He little buddy you sure missed that #1 HSCA save % goalie hwo covered up that shit show you call defence!
    Crack heads have needs also!
    Just like these to 2 dmen its bad for you!

    Is that on Subban, or on Markov? The WOWYs suggest its Markov, not Subban

  145. Eh Team says:

    GCW_69: Weber is on the decline and hitting an age where the decline can come fast and furious and he is signed to the end of time. Hall is in his prime on a great contract. Nurse is a highly thought of defensive prospect who was recently the best defender at the World Juniors. If you think Weber is worth more, good on you, but I sure don’t.

    I’m not sure why the Subban-Weber trade doesn’t get more flak. Maybe it does, but just not here.

    Subban > Hall > Larsson > Weber

    Hall – Larsson is nowhere near the gong show that Subban- Weber is.

  146. Drew says:

    Ducey: MTL was smart enough to know that if they traded PK and got back Hall + #4 + ? they would have a huge hole at RHD that Petry wasn’t going to fill. The team that gets the 1 in the 3 for 1 gets the best player.

    And you think Weber is a worse return than Hall +?. I don’t think so. No way NSH trades Weber for Hall + PLD + any Oilers Dman.

    And to blame Chia for not convincing the guys that just fired him is a little rich.

    if i was MTL i would do that trade… Hall, Klefbom and Poolparty

  147. Dee Dee says:

    Dustylegnd: Fact: Chia took very little time to make the Seguin trade and was utterly fleeced, the Bruins now have next nothing to show for that trade and Seguin is not even in his prime

    Tyler Seguin has played for 3 years since the trade so the outcome of that trade is very easy to look at. At the time of the trade he was very much a ? and there was great concern his discipline/attitude/leadership/partying would prevent him from finding any sort of success, and their management team decided to let him go. It could have gone the other way.

    In 3 years we will be able to evaluate the Hall trade just as easily.

    Bruins general manager Peter Chiarelli made some strong comments about Seguin to the Boston Globe on the day of the 2013 NHL Draft (Sunday at Prudential Center).

    “He’s got to commit his mind and focus on the one task at hand,” Chiarelli said. “He’s got to become more of a professional. And you know what? I can say that about a lot of 21-year-olds. I know he got criticized for playing on the periphery and all that stuff. He did. He’s got to commit to being a professional and focusing on the game. He does that, we don’t expect him to be crashing and banging. Just play your game.”

    Chiarelli was much more kind to Hall in his final words.

  148. leadfarmer says:

    Weber is still 30. Coming off a season in which he scored almost as many goals as Taylor Hall as a defenseman and had 51 points on a team that doesn’t have that many high end forwards. Yes he had a down year on his own end and that contract is horrible but to suggest that he is falling apart is ridiculous

  149. commonfan14 says:

    godot10: It had nothing to do with Hall’s character or leadership. It wasn’t personal. It was just business.
    It was unfair to Hall. And unfair to the fans who invested in Hall. But Chiarelli was new. He wasn’t invested in Hall. He could make a ruthless calculation about how to reset the roster to maximize the probability of quick and sustained success.
    So Hall for Larsson. Lucic in. Larsson, Klefbom, Nurse, Davidson, and Reinhart as a young defensive core behind McDavid, Draisaitl, and Nugent-Hopkins. And Talbot. The most proven way to quick and sustained successful teams are built around a goaltender, a defense, and centres, surrounded by competent vets. Lucic, Sekera, Eberle.

    Could’ve thrown in three nutty references to Eakins and this still wouldn’t been the most level-headed take I’ve seen on the trade.

  150. Frank the dog says:

    Connoreah:
    Dustylegnd,

    Last year Hall played every single game surrounded by players like Eberle, Draisaitl, McDavid and Nuge.He barely broke 60 points.These are all high end offensive players.Jersey finished ahead of Edmonton last year, so do you expect him to score more points in Jersey next year (i.e. more than 60-65)?I’m genuinely curious, who does Hall need to play with in order to score 85 points, as you suggest?

    You’re referencing a single season for Draisaitl and suggesting he can’t score points without Hall.Isn’t that a bit premature?And by that logic, last year Hall’s point production fell off a cliff whenever McDavid was in the lineup.Does that mean Hall can’t score points when McDavid is on the roster?

    You suggest that 18 year old players, if exceptional, might reach 40 points.What is that conclusion based on?Dylan Larkin scored 45 points last year as an 18 year old.I would venture a guess to say that JP is more exceptional than Larkin.Would you disagree?

    And yes, someone on the defense needs to produce points.But more importantly, someone on the defense needs to be able to defend, move the puck out of the zone, reduce GA.Larsson is pretty damn good at all those things, no?

    And finally, yes, I can tell you that Chia couldn’t find a better deal for Seguin.Because he didn’t.As empowering as it may be to sit at home and think about how brilliant we would be as NHL GMs, I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that perhaps you and I have zero knowledge of what the actual market is at any given point.Zero understanding of how difficult it is to build a roster in the NHL.We base our opinions on what the “sources” tweet, what the fans say, what the latest rumour is on twitter.If you want to believe you could do a better job than Chia, extract more value for our assets – more power to you!Share all your brilliant insights on the world wide web.Just don’t expect everyone to agree with you.I choose to believe that the guy running our team, the guy who built a Stanley Cup Champion with years of experience actually doing the job knows better than you.Sorry.

    You forgot to mention that almost every other member of the top 6 was injured last year. Makes a difference sometimes.

  151. rickithebear says:

    Oh my goodness:
    Move PK:

    what ever will we do to replace the 255th best even producer of points.
    It will hurt to lose the 163rd best Dman in the game.

    Weber
    Mtl must be soooo mad.
    they got the 377th best producer of even points.
    Though he is one of the few Dman that truly influence PP .
    since he is the 5th best player in the game at scoring goals on PP.

    It is real nice to see B. Davidson was given some PP minutes and ending up in the top 10 Of PPG/60 players.

    Subban who is 328th best PP scorer in the game.
    Come to think of it Subbans primary role was to pass the puck to Markov’s effective PP shot.
    his top 40 assist rate proves that.

    it is a shame they are sacrificing that 255th ranked Even production for the sake of getting a top 20 HSCA D.

  152. rickithebear says:

    J. Nakladal
    3rd/4th comp
    3rd teammates
    Top 30 HSCA D
    24.41 SA/60 #7 D
    #43 GA/60 D

  153. rickithebear says:

    leadfarmer:
    Weber is still 30.Coming off a season in which he scored almost as many goals as Taylor Hall as a defenseman and had 51 points on a team that doesn’t have that many high end forwards.Yes he had a down year on his own end and that contract is horrible but to suggest that he is falling apart is ridiculous

    he is the 10th best PP scorer in thre game.

    Davidson’s production this year on PP would make him top 15 in the game.

  154. Ducey says:

    GCW_69: Weber is on the decline and hitting an age where the decline can come fast and furious and he is signed to the end of time.Hall is in his prime on a great contract.Nurse is a highly thought of defensive prospect who was recently the best defender at the World Juniors.If you think Weber is worth more, good on you, but I sure don’t.

    Just because he got fired, doesn’t mean you can’t make a business deal together.Self interest should take over, and getting Peter to pay more, even if its a little bit, should be good for Boston.

    The point is the MTL needs a #1 to replace Subban. Weber is a #1. You don’t seem to grasp the concept that they need someone to play defense. People pining for Hall don’t seem to get that either.

    And Peter DID offer more to BOS than CGY. Yet you say he did not do a good job because he did not sell it to BOS. That’s on BOS, not Chia.

  155. Ducey says:

    rickithebear:

    It is real nice to see B. Davidson was given some PP minutes and ending upin the top 10 Of PPG/60 players.

    I am not sure why I am arguing this with you Ricki. Everyone else has tried but it hasn’t worked.

    You can’t take anything from Davidson’s PP numbers.

    He had 22 minutes on the PP! He had 7 shots and 2 went in! He shot 28 % on the PP.

    While you are at it why don’t you pump Pak for the PP? He had two assists in 20 minutes on the PP. That’s 5.86 pts/ 60. Second on the team and right behind McDavid.

    TMc doesn’t know what he is doing obviously. He just needs to feature these guys, and the now departed Korpse (he was 4th on the PP in 60 minutes (actually not too bad)) and no more PP problems.

  156. Dustylegnd says:

    Dee Dee,

    and the very year Seguin was traded (2012) he put up 84 points in Dallas, Chia’s ability to judge future potential,personal discipline/commitment/leadership and the ability to play hockey despite being a big party guy should now terrify you….it didn’t take 1 year to see Chia was grossly mistaken it took less than 1 season.

  157. Dustylegnd says:

    Frank the dog,

    Taylor Hall 2013-2014 GP 75 Points 80….so I guess the answer is a healthy RNH

    I agree Hall goes from bad to worse with this trade to NJ, don’t kid yourself Oilers management knows they need not worry about Hall putting up gross numbers playing with a flawed lineup like in NJ

    The point is this, if you want Cups you need to win more trades than you lose, trading Elite players for players that may 1 day be elite, rarely ends well.

  158. Atc-Nate says:

    Henry: Jesus Christ didn’t start leading his ministry until he was 30.

    Wrong. He started at 12. 🙂 Teaching in the temple remember?

  159. Admiral Ackbar says:

    Questions:

    Could the Oilers not simply offer sheet Barrie?
    Which salaries could they dump if that happens?

    What would it take honestly to pry Barrie & Duschene from Col?
    Nuge, Nurse & a 1st?

    Lastly,

    Please don’t trade the only experienced C on the team. Please!

  160. Lowetide says:

    Admiral Ackbar:
    Questions:

    Could the Oilers not simply offer sheet Barrie?
    Which salaries could they dump if that happens?

    What would it take honestly to pry Barrie & Duschene from Col?
    Nuge, Nurse & a 1st?

    Lastly,

    Please don’t trade the only experienced C on the team. Please!

    Filing for arbitration cuts off the offer sheet route for Barrie.

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