RE 16-17 GRIFFIN REINHART: EARLY MORNING RAIN

Griffin Reinhart and Nail Yakupov will forever be linked, so I am writing them back to back in this year’s RE. The conversations that occurred in the weeks leading up to the draft have found some public oxygen, so we know a little about this soap opera’s plot. The scouts wanted Ryan Murray, the scouting director wanted Griffin Reinhart, and management wanted Yakupov. Nail was drafted, and that was followed by a three-year period of questioning the pick and his progress. Out of sight but never out of mind, Edmonton dealt for Reinhart (paying a dear price to scratch the itch) and in their minds righted a historic wrong. Fans reacted with disappointment, anger, rage, denial and may some day reach acceptance. What do we make of this Griffin? (Early Morning Rain)

GRIFFIN REINHART 15-16

  • 5×5 points per 60: 0.13 (7th among D)
  • 5×4 points per 60: nil
  • Corsi for 5×5 %: 46.3
  • Qual Comp: 3rd pairing
  • Qual Team: 1st pairing
  • Corsi for 5×5 % REL: -9.0
  • Shots on goal/percentage: 24 shots
  • Boxcars: 29, 0-1-1 .034

Information via Stats.HockeyAnalysis.com, behindthenet.ca and hockey-reference.

VOLLMAN SLEDGEHAMMER

OILERS D VOLLMAN BLUE 25 OR MORE

The Vollman places Reinhart in the two-way region of the chart (Nurse and the Klefbom group are in the shutdown/tough minutes zone of the Vollman). Reinhart’s results are slightly better than those of Nurse, but their deployment was not the same. This subtle difference will come into the conversation over the next two weeks on this blog.

RE 16-17: 39GP, 1-5-6 .154

  1. I see you have him in the minors for half the season. Yes, the bonus issue—while not a an absolute show killer—probably means he spends significant time in the AHL in the first half of the year.
  2. Works out well, since you clearly hate him. Anyone who watched GR play for the Oil Kings will have an appreciation for what he can bring. He needs to transfer those junior skills to the NHL, and for defensemen that can take some time.
  3. The Oilers overpaid. The sun refuses to shine, all is ruined. Well, I do think the team overpaid, and in an area they already had some cover (Nurse). I also think there is some value in moving on from outrage, but your mileage may vary and you are welcome to stay angry as long as you like.
  4. Why are people mad at Reinhart, anyway? Don’t know. It is absolutely ridiculous to hold the player responsible for a trade, but Adam Larsson will probably get his name dragged online for the same reason.
  5. At least Larsson didn’t play for the Oil Kings! Heh. It is interesting that fans have turned what should be an advantage—knowing the player inside and out—into a negative. I don’t blame the fans—losing for a decade excuses the entire class—but logic and reason tell us procuring those you know to have good habits and character is a good idea.
  6. Chiarelli gets all the blame? Yes. In two consecutive summers he has acquired defenders at enormous prices. That is not in the winning playbook, and the severe cost of these men will have an impact.
  7. Especially when PC leaves him off the protected list for the expansion draft. I think they protect him.
  8. What?? Yeah, I have been thinking about this, and suspect Reinhart will be on the list. Chiarelli invested a lot in Reinhart and that likely ties the two men together long term—or at least longer than the expansion draft.
  9. Now you are trolling, full on trolling. No, I think GR fits the template for Chiarelli’s Oilers and he will get every chance to step up by the end of the year. If he does, I think he makes the list.
  10. Who else is on the list, then? I think they go 8 skaters and a G. My list: Cam Talbot, Andrej Sekera, Oscar Klefbom, Adam Larsson, Griffin Reinhart, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Milan Lucic, Jordan Eberle, Leon Draisaitl.
  11. So, they will leave Brandon Davidson unprotected? I think there is a good chance. Now, if Davidson has another strong season (he was fantastic in 2015-16) then all bets are off. However, I think GR is going to get a chance to show what he has in the second half. If he performs well enough, suspect the Oilers keep him.
  12. The Oilers will lose Davidson for sure! Hmm. Benoit Pouliot, Patrick Maroon, Brandon Davidson, Nail Yakupov, and of course all of this is far too soon. A player not mentioned here could emerge and become the obvious choice. Miles to go.
  13. Where is he on the depth chart? I think the last 10 games of the season—he played 20 or more minutes in five of them—establishes that the Oilers are going to be comfortable with him on the third pairing when he arrives from Bakersfield.
  14. Where is Reinhart on the depth chart entering training camp? On LH side, I think the depth chart will go Oscar Klefbom, Andrej Sekera, Darnell Nurse, Griffin Reinhart, Jordan Oesterle, David Musil, Mark Fraser, Dillon Simpson, Joey Laleggia. This assumes Brandon Davidson will line up on the RH side.
  15. And Oesterle wins 7D? Well, him or Musil. Fraser could, my bet is that the foot speed issue will rule him out.
  16. Reinhart gets sent down for sure? I think the die is cast because of cap, but if he forces the issue perhaps there is a way.
  17. Who did he play well with in the NHL? Jordan Oesterle. Makes sense, they would have played together in Bakersfield, and the 47.9 Corsi for 5×5 percentage together featured close to even faceoff usage (offensive and defensive).
  18. Why would Oesterle be a good partner? Despite both being lefties, Oesterle can move the puck quickly—Reinhart should be the secondary option in that area, especially as a young NHLer.
  19. Is he better than Nurse? I think Nurse’s speed puts him in front of Reinhart, but the performances last year were within range of each other. Reinhart is older, so that is a factor. We don’t know who will be better as an NHL player, despite what people tell you.
  20. The organization sees him as part of the future? Yes, I think so. You never know, but there did seem to be a feeling that, despite delay, the club was committed to the player. Oilers assistant coach Jim Johnson on Reinhart:  “For him, it’s his skating ability and making sure he feels comfortable enough that he’s not flat-footed. If he’s got good momentum coming back and gaps up well in the offensive zone on offensive rushes, if he does that, I think that will give him a little bit more confidence defending. He’ll get better, he’s a young defenceman.” Source
  21. How many shutdown defenders does Edmonton need? That is the real issue. Currently at the NHL level, Mark Fayne, Darnell Nurse and Griffin Reinhart fit that description—with Adam Larsson added this summer. Brandon Davidson is not a similar player (more finesse and puck passing than physical) to Nurse and Reinhart but he would be in the general area. That is a lot of this player type.
  22. Davidson has more offense than Reinhart? Well, in junior per 82 games Davidson delivered 55 points, Reinhart 44 points. In the AHL per 82 games, it was Davidson 15 points and Reinhart 29. The AHL numbers probably reflect eventual NHL usage, but I think Davidson has a good enough shot to possibly get some power-play time. I would give him the edge offensively, while also making clear that neither man is likely to post 40 points in one season.
  23. What would you say to someone who is down on GR as a player? I would encourage everyone—myself included—to remember that he is still very young and experience will allow him to progress. I see a lot of folks saying that defensive lottery picks spike immediately or not at all—and the finality of that statement is being used online as an unavoidable hammer. I get the feeling that many believe this player is already a failure, which is strange and unusual for people who (mostly) impress with insight and knowledge. Surely we can agree that he is not yet doomed to an AHL career? That he could be better than Luke Schenn? We should be careful not to bury this player, Nurse too.
  24. What exactly are you saying? Griffin Reinhart is still young—younger last season than Jeff Petry was on his day of arrival in Edmonton—so making a sweeping statement about him, while true today, implies he is unable to make great progress year over year.
  25. Why this song? There is a melancholy in it that fits the mood of Reinhart’s career. There is also the urge to roam (why else head to the airport?) and that may be part of GRs future. Lightfoot wrote this song while homesick for Canada and watching jet airliners taking off from LAX, and it is typical of his songs in that it perfectly fits the feeling of being alone. For older readers, I will add (as you know) the sound of Lightfoot’s voice is as familiar to us as the air we breathe. The version of the song I linked to may surprise some viewers, as Lightfoot’s voice still has great range compared to his later (more famous) work.

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94 Responses to "RE 16-17 GRIFFIN REINHART: EARLY MORNING RAIN"

  1. Mr DeBakey says:

    A Reinhart thread.
    This could be a long day.
    I wonder if any arguments will be repeated from earlier threads?

  2. Lowetide says:

    Mr DeBakey:
    A Reinhart thread.
    This could be a long day.
    I wonder if any arguments will be repeated from earlier threads?

    Well, I doubt we remember the previous arguments, so they may slide in. 🙂

  3. Atc-Nate says:

    Apologies for this Lowetide, hate to bring his name up in fear of regressing back to the nuclear disaster area a certain thread evolved to, but…

    Check out @THNRyanKennedy’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/THNRyanKennedy/status/761318288240549888?s=09

    Kailer Yamamoto.

    If only it were Nailer Yakamoto, he would have to be a linemate of the real Yak at some point would he not?

    Also, I like GR! The way he’s been developed is, in fact they way Nurse should’ve been. If LT mentioned it in the article, my apologies, I’m about to go read it, however thought I’d post that tweet because I find myself funny.

  4. flyfish1168 says:

    I’m not disappointed they traded for GR. I’m upset PC traded for another LHD when the traded went down. If GR, Nurse and Klef develops and willing to sign friendly contracts Sekera maybe the one heading out of town. JMHO

  5. Woodguy says:

    How many shutdown defenders does Edmonton need?
    That is the real issue. Currently at the NHL level, Mark Fayne, Darnell Nurse and Griffin Reinhart fit that description. Brandon Davidson is not a similar player (more finesse and puck passing than physical) to Nurse and Reinhart but he would be in the general area. That is a lot of this player type.

    I would include Larsson on the shut down list.

    Its the one thing he does really well.

  6. jm363561 says:

    I only saw GR play twice for the Oil Kings, both times in the epic series against the Winterhawks which the Kings won in seven. GR was an absolute hero and I was delighted when Chia traded for him. I was disappointed with his 2015.16 season, but the Oilers are a team where defenders careers go to die. With a much changed roster and an actual second year with the same coach I still have hope that I can once again see GR dominating at the back.

    As for the fans – I first came to Edmonton in 1990 and caught the tail end of the Glory Years (my god, what a player Mark Messier was) and you can almost touch the pain and frustration in the City at the Oil wreck. But man, they can turn on players so quickly and viciously. Sad to say, but Adam Larsson is probably the best thing to happen for GR …. for all the wrong reasons.

  7. Woodguy says:

    Here’s a couple metrics for the Oilers D from last year (removed some of no consequence and added Larsson)

    This is DFA/60 RelativeComp vs Elite forwards.

    If the number is negative then the opposition forwards got LESS scoring chances against that player compared to the rest of his team against Elite comp. A positive number means the opposition got more chances:

    DFA/60 RelComp vs. Eilte
    Brandon Davidson -7.5
    Oscar Klefbom -6.1
    Adam Larsson -3.7
    Andrej Sekera -1.1
    Darnell Nurse 0.8
    Mark Fayne 2.4
    Eric Gryba 3.5
    Justin Schultz 3.9
    Jordan Oesterle 5.2
    Griffin Reinhart 8.8

    Nice to see Nurse where he is. Reinhart and Oesterle played 2nd pair for the last 20 games (like LT mentioned in the post) so I’m not surprised to see them where they are.

    This metric has quickly become my favorite for measuring “defensive ability”

    Same players, same metric vs. Middle Comp

    Adam Larsson -6.0
    Mark Fayne -5.0
    Oscar Klefbom -3.8
    Brandon Davidson -2.4
    Andrej Sekera -1.8
    Eric Gryba 0.4
    Justin Schultz 2.5
    Jordan Oesterle 2.6
    Darnell Nurse 3.7
    Griffin Reinhart 5.0

    Fayne shows his worth here. Oscar, Brandon and Andrej is a great left side. If only the GM saw it that way.

    I’ll do DFF Rels next.

  8. Water Fire says:

    Reinhart is a smart player. If he can up his tempo for the jump he needs to make I see him as being an effective player that quietly does the things that win games. The Oilers really need defenders in 4-7 that while perhaps not scoring a ton are very hard to score on.

    This has been a real weakness. Just as in they need bottom six forwards that have some offensive game. To me the whole roster has to be able to put pressure on or at least frustrate the opposition.

    This is what being hard to play against is about moreso than physicality. If you don’t get the other team out of sync it’s hard to win.

  9. Ca$h-McMoney! says:

    1st pairing quality team? Really? How?

  10. Lowetide says:

    Ca$h-McMoney!:
    1st pairing quality team?Really? How?

    What is this in reference to?

  11. Water Fire says:

    Woodguy:
    Here’s a couple metrics for the Oilers D from last year (removed some of no consequence and added Larsson)

    This is DFA/60 RelativeComp vs Elite forwards.

    If the number is negative then the opposition forwards got LESS scoring chances against that player compared to the rest of his team against Elite comp.A positive number means the opposition got more chances:

    DFA/60 RelComp vs. Eilte
    Brandon Davidson-7.5
    Oscar Klefbom-6.1
    Adam Larsson-3.7
    Andrej Sekera-1.1
    Darnell Nurse0.8
    Mark Fayne2.4
    Eric Gryba3.5
    Justin Schultz3.9
    Jordan Oesterle5.2
    Griffin Reinhart8.8

    Nice to see Nurse where he is.Reinhart and Oesterle played 2nd pair for the last 20 games (like LT mentioned in the post) so I’m not surprised to see them where they are.

    This metric has quickly become my favorite for measuring “defensive ability”

    Same players, same metric vs. Middle Comp

    Adam Larsson-6.0
    Mark Fayne-5.0
    Oscar Klefbom-3.8
    Brandon Davidson-2.4
    Andrej Sekera-1.8
    Eric Gryba0.4
    Justin Schultz2.5
    Jordan Oesterle2.6
    Darnell Nurse3.7
    Griffin Reinhart5.0

    Fayne shows his worth here.Oscar, Brandon and Andrej is a great left side.If only the GM saw it that way.

    I’ll do DFF Rels next.

    What was Nurse playing during Reinhart’s 20 with Oesterle?

  12. Evilas says:

    LT, in response to your response from the last thread.

    I totally agree with you that Chia has been tremendous in adding to the RHD prospect depth pool, but other than Larsson, Gryba & Clendenning there have been no further adds to the starboard side at the NHL level. At minimum I expected to see some movement there that would have an immediate impact on the AHL depth and potentially on the current roster. At minimum deals for players like Russo or Palliota who could possibly push up from the AHL level was what I was hoping to see by now.

    Seeing him add Mark Fraser to the leftorium absolutely boggles my mind. Adam Pardy would have been a much better move.

    I am concerned, thus my angst, but hopefully the start of the season will reveal PC’s master plan. And it will all make sense……

    Damn hope, we’ve been force-fed hope (mostly in our own minds really) all these years with no impact on the on ice results.

    With Gustavsson and Fraser as the depth adds my Oiler Angst Level is at about 7.5, how about yours?

  13. stephen sheps says:

    Evilas:

    Seeing him add Mark Fraser to the leftorium absolutely boggles my mind. Adam Pardy would have been a much better move.

    I am concerned, thus my angst, but hopefully the start of the season will reveal PC’s master plan.And it will all make sense……

    With Gustavsson and Fraser as the depth adds my Oiler Angst Level is at about 7.5, how about yours?

    I am less angsty wrt Fraser than you are, and while I agree that Pardy (or Gryba) would have been better uses of the 50 man roster, I think the key here is that Fraser is likely penciled in as the AHL vet on the back end. Pardy on the other hand is not as likely to clear waivers and his salary demand is probably a touch higher. Of the many issues that keep my OilerAngst levels high, Mark Fraser isn’t one of them.

    List of things that make me nervous for the season ahead:
    Backup goaler? yes
    Who will play 2RD? yes
    JP gets rushed into top 6 minutes? yes
    Will Yak live to fight another day, ideally without that ever-present swarm of bees? heck yes
    Fraser? Nope, nothing to see here.

  14. Lowetide says:

    I think Fraser is an AHL option, likely far less expensive than Pardy (who I agree played well). Agree they need to trade out some AHL LHD for RHD, hopefully before the season.

    I am not thrilled with the Gistavsson signing, suspect Brossoit has an excellent chance to win the backup job out of camp.

  15. Kiltymcbagpipes says:

    Water Fire: What was Nurse playing during Reinhart’s 20 with Oesterle?

    Hey LT great job as always I love the idea of the RE’s for each player. Just wondering any idea when you plan on doing the one for Nurse? I am going to be in and out all weekend don’t want to miss it. Thanks.

  16. fifthcartel says:

    The Oilers and their love for ‘shutdown’ defensemen is insane. I don’t think any other team in the league (over)values them like the Oilers do.

    Sure, it’s not doom and gloom for every defensive defensemen, but what are they hoping to accomplish by adding players whose skillset are often so limited?

  17. Water Fire says:

    Evilas:
    LT, in response to your response from the last thread.

    I totally agree with you that Chia has been tremendous in adding to the RHD prospect depth pool,but other than Larsson, Gryba & Clendenningthere have been no further adds to the starboard side at the NHL level.At minimum I expected to see some movement there that would have an immediate impact on the AHL depth and potentially on the current roster.At minimum deals for players like Russo or Palliota who could possibly push up from the AHL level was what I was hoping to see by now.

    Seeing him add Mark Fraser to the leftorium absolutely boggles my mind. Adam Pardy would have been a much better move.

    I am concerned, thus my angst, but hopefully the start of the season will reveal PC’s master plan.And it will all make sense……

    Damn hope, we’ve been force-fed hope (mostly in our own minds really) all these years with no impact on the on ice results.

    With Gustavsson and Fraser as the depth adds my Oiler Angst Level is at about 7.5, how about yours?

    Fraser is there IMO to be sheriff. There isn’t a lot of truculents and I’m sure they want more backup if JP ends up there.

  18. Lowetide says:

    Kiltymcbagpipes: Hey LT great job as always I love the idea of the RE’s for each player. Just wondering any idea when you plan on doing the one for Nurse? I am going to be in and out all weekend don’t want to miss it. Thanks.

    Nurse will be the week of August 15

  19. Woodguy says:

    Water Fire: What was Nurse playing during Reinhart’s 20 with Oesterle?

    Here’s Nurse’s TOI w/ all other Dmen last year.

    If memory serves he played a lot with Clendenning at the end of the season, and a bit with Pardy.

    Player TOI
    SEKERA, ANDREJ 392:58
    SCHULTZ, JUSTIN 245:27
    CLENDENING, ADAM 188:49
    GRYBA, ERIC 95:26
    FAYNE, MARK 88:09
    DAVIDSON, BRANDON 45:00
    PARDY, ADAM 43:37
    KLEFBOM, OSCAR 31:40
    NIKITIN, NIKITA 21:32
    REINHART, GRIFFIN 13:00
    OESTERLE, JORDAN 12:03

    What a gong show of partners for a rook.

    Nice work Oilers.

  20. Klima's_Bucket says:

    I know putting up points isn’t everything, but how many Dmen with Reinhart’s numbers in junior went on to become a consistent top 4 Dman in the last 20 years?

  21. Stelio Kontos says:

    Klima’s_Bucket:
    I know putting up points isn’t everything, but how many Dmen with Reinhart’s numbers in junior went on to become a consistent top 4 Dman in the last 20 years?

    On a stacked oil kings team no less. Reinhart was a poor bet.

  22. PunjabiOil says:

    The Reinhart trade was a poor one. They clearly overpaid (don’t believe there was any other team willing to pay anything close to what the Oilers gave up), and the assets they could have used in a trade for a RHD were no longer available this summer. Does Reinhart even get you a late 1st rounder at this point? Doubtful. Mabye a second.

    Another concerning thing is per Stauffer, they were going to take Joel Ek-Eriksson instead of Barzal or Connor. Size.

    Makes you question the scouting department.

  23. Water Fire says:

    Woodguy: Here’s Nurse’s TOI w/ all other Dmen last year.

    If memory serves he played a lot with Clendenning at the end of the season, and a bit with Pardy.

    PlayerTOI
    SEKERA, ANDREJ392:58
    SCHULTZ, JUSTIN245:27
    CLENDENING, ADAM188:49
    GRYBA, ERIC95:26
    FAYNE, MARK88:09
    DAVIDSON, BRANDON45:00
    PARDY, ADAM43:37
    KLEFBOM, OSCAR31:40
    NIKITIN, NIKITA21:32
    REINHART, GRIFFIN13:00
    OESTERLE, JORDAN12:03

    What a gong show of partners for a rook.

    Nice work Oilers.

    Thanks. He didn’t do too bad given the Sekera minutes would be tough comp and the Schultz minutes tough because Schultz. Clendenning must have been third pair.

    I don’t think we’ll get a good read until these kids get competent partners to get a rhythm with. And s team system the forwards will actually do.

  24. anjinsan says:

    I wish we were instead talking about how great Barzal/Kyle Connor and Brandom Carlo/Blackwood/Andersson/Kylington were progressing. One thing you omitted was that GR was passed by others in the Islander pipeline.

    What song would you play for a GM who gets repeatedly fleeced and yet his getting fleeced gets covered by unbelievable luck (McDavid, Puljujarvi)?

  25. Klima's_Bucket says:

    I actually like Reinhart, but given the leftorium, I feel a wiser move would have been to keep the powder dry last summer and just draft the BPA instead of overreacting after losing out on the Hamilton sweepstakes.

    Then later on, make your move for a right shot Dman.

  26. Kiltymcbagpipes says:

    Lowetide: Nurse will be the week of August 15

    Great thanks.

    My take on Reinhart? He’s young be patient. None of the picks he got traded for are playing in the NHL yet. Until that happens I’ll wait and see.

  27. Stelio Kontos says:

    Kiltymcbagpipes: Great thanks.

    My take on Reinhart? He’s young be patient. None of the picks he got traded for are playing in the NHL yet. Until that happens I’ll wait and see.

    Problem is he isn’t either.

  28. OilClog says:

    Not all fans were up in arms about this acquisition or the cost of it.

    Wasn’t Lars in a similar position within the Devils himself before he finally broke out.

    Wait and see.

    Now about Fayne

  29. Braden28 says:

    Woodguy,

    Why do some Dmen (Nurse, Kelfbom, Davidson) do worse against the middle? Quality of Teammates? Sample size?

    I’m struggling to see why we can make statements about player’s abilities, when the data suggests they do worse against lesser opponents.

  30. Mr DeBakey says:

    OilClog: Now about Fayne

    What about Fayne?

  31. PunjabiOil says:

    It was comical they took into account of Bob Green’s opinion so heavily despite the fact he admitted he had not seen him play since he was with the Oil Kings.

    It’s easier to dominate in junior due to strength and size advantage.

    His poor skating and lack of firs step is what will hold him back from being a legit NHL defencemen.

    Also surprising is the package for Hamilton was similar – could they have have used that price as leverage and kept it to only 15th overall? Why the need to include the 2nd rounder in the deal?

  32. season not played says:

    I just remember thinking what a bad pick by Snow in that spot and also remember screaming at the TV when they were announcing the trade at the draft “better not be for Griffen Reinhart!”

    There are those that believe at the time acquiring a lefty at that point wasn’t an issue because they hadn’t yet signed Sekera but they only had left handed prospects at the time and therefore needed to be thinking righty then as well.

    Unless they flip a lefty of some value, not three minor league lefties for an NHL righty, one of these guys is going to figure out how to play on the right side.

  33. RandomPoster says:

    PunjabiOil: It was comical they took into account of Bob Green’s opinion so heavily despite the fact he admitted he had not seen him play since he was with the Oil Kings.

    How do you know how much Bob Green’s opinion had on the decision?

  34. Woodguy says:

    Braden28:
    Woodguy,

    Why do some Dmen (Nurse, Kelfbom, Davidson) do worse against the middle? Quality of Teammates? Sample size?

    I’m struggling to see why we can make statements about player’s abilities, when the data suggests they do worse against lesser opponents.

    Its not that they do worse against the middle, its that the other Oilers Dmen do better.

    These are all Relative measures, so they take what they player did vs. the comp and then what the team did against the comp while the player was not on the ice (only in games the player played in btw) and compares the two.

    So most of the Oiler Dmen got crushed vs. Elite, so when a few do well, their Rels are much higher.

    Against Middle comp the lower end guys do better, so the Rel is lower.

    Also, you’re right in that sample size plays a role for sure.

    Here’s the raw DFA/60 data that the Rel’s are drawn from.

    Player DFA/60 vs. Elite
    Brandon Davidson 34
    Adam Larsson 37.3 – note Larsson’s rank changes as his number were rel to NJD
    Oscar Klefbom 41.0
    Andrej Sekera 42.5
    Darnell Nurse 43.9
    Mark Fayne 47.2
    Eric Gryba 47.3
    Justin Schultz 44.5
    Jordan Oesterle 51.2
    Griffin Reinhart 52.6

    Player DFA/60 vs. Middle
    Adam Larsson 27.7 – again, note the huge difference in raw numbers due to different team
    Mark Fayne 34.5
    Oscar Klefbom 34.7
    Brandon Davidson 35.7
    Andrej Sekera 37.3
    Eric Gryba 40.4
    Justin Schultz 40.8
    Griffin Reinhart 42.7
    Darnell Nurse 43.6
    Jordan Oesterle 44.3

    Also, here are their TOI vs each comp so you can examine the sample. I like a sample of at least 300 minutes, not always available.

    Player TOI vs. Elite
    Brandon Davidson 274:25
    Oscar Klefbom 198:58
    Adam Larsson 621:51
    Andrej Sekera 511:30
    Darnell Nurse 379:59
    Mark Fayne 376:22
    Eric Gryba 238:13
    Justin Schultz 268:15
    Jordan Oesterle 98:01
    Griffin Reinhart 144:27

    Player TOI vs. Middle
    Adam Larsson 513:42
    Mark Fayne 337:50
    Oscar Klefbom 168:11
    Brandon Davidson 276:02
    Andrej Sekera 462:57
    Eric Gryba 287:06
    Justin Schultz 322:37
    Jordan Oesterle 94:09
    Darnell Nurse 436:47
    Griffin Reinhart 136:22

    Hope that clears up some of your questions.

    Also,

    Brandon Fucking Davidson everyone!

    If Chia trades him I’ll throw up.

  35. RandomPoster says:

    I’m sure there are lots. Just cherry picking, but how does Shea Weber fit your criteria?
    Klima’s_Bucket:
    I know putting up points isn’t everything, but how many Dmen with Reinhart’s numbers in junior went on to become a consistent top 4 Dman in the last 20 years?

  36. Klima's_Bucket says:

    RandomPoster,

    Weber didn’t have strong numbers, but his numbers did improve each year dramatically in junior.
    Reinhart’s did not.

  37. Braden28 says:

    Woodguy,

    B-Davy! Woah!

    Thanks for taking the time to clear it up for me.

    My mind still goes to quality of teammates, thinking that Nurse played against Elite more often with Sekera and Middle more often with Schultz, which would have a large effect on his numbers.

    Jumping back into the Reinhart discussion:
    His numbers, while a limited sample size, don’t look very good. If my mind serves me correctly, he played the last 20 games with (an off handed) Oesterle. Neither of them look very good by this metric.

    The blame here lies with player management. “Welcome to the toughest league in the world, here’s a raw, off handed rookie for a partner. Good luck!”

  38. Centre of attention says:

    Woodguy,

    I will never forgive Reinhart if they trade Davidson, is what you meant to say. 😉

    Honestly I think the Oilers would be safe exposing Reinhart while Yak/Pou/Maroon are all exposed at the same time. If I was Vegas and in the Pacific Division, I would want some guys who can forcheck and help on special teams. Pou/Maroon/Yak are those kind of guys. Reinhart is just a wild card I doubt he gets claimed.

    But knowing the Oilers, they panic and trade Davidson at the deadline then use protection on Reinhart. Because Oilers.

  39. Ca$h-McMoney! says:

    Lowetide: What is this in reference to?

    Doesn’t the write up say his Qual Team is first pairing?

    Maybe I don’t understand the stat but it seemed to me like his d partner was usually Gryba or Oesterle

  40. RandomPoster says:

    Klima’s_Bucket:
    RandomPoster,

    Weber didn’t have strong numbers, but his numbers did improve each year dramatically in junior.
    Reinhart’s did not.

    Increasing power play time vs. decreasing power play? Reinhart was playing against all of the opposition’s top players.

  41. Klima's_Bucket says:

    RandomPoster,

    Who was Weber playing against? The Dregs?

  42. Water Fire says:

    The love for Pirri and Barzal is lost on me. Neither helps the Oilers at all. They need a better Letestu but 3rd C offense and speed.

  43. Clay says:

    Woodguy:

    Also,

    Brandon Fucking Davidson everyone!

    If Chia trades him I’ll throw up.

    The scary thing is, I can totally see LT being right and Chia protecting Griff over Davidson because Griff is “his guy”.

    The worst case scenario is they lose the player for nothing. It would be worse than the Petry mishandle.

    I can guarantee that if normal, everyday fans can suss out Davidson’s worth, other NHL teams with their analytic departments and pro scouting are definitely keeping their eye on him, and quietly waiting for Chia to make him available on the cheap.

  44. RandomPoster says:

    Klima’s_Bucket,

    Klima’s_Bucket,

    Probably not. But I believe Weber got increasing time on PP, Reinhart got increasing time on PK.

  45. Johnny says:

    Protecting Griff and exposing Davidson would be the exact same as choosing MA Pouliot over Brodziak. I wish I had more confidence that they will not do this.

  46. Johnny says:

    By my eye, Davidson is a better skater, puck mover , has a better shot and is more physical (competes harder). Oh yeah, and has a better work ethic.

    I still don’t understand how a supposed positive in trading for him was that we knew the player, yet comments last year came out about his practice habits. WTF???

    What does Reinhart have? The fact he’s 6’4? Well so was J Bonsignore.

  47. PunjabiOil says:

    RandomPoster: How do you know how much Bob Green’s opinion had on the decision?

    “I know what he brings,” said Oilers Director of Player Personnel and former Oil Kings General Manager Bob Green. “I know what he brought in junior. He played one year pro, he’s got developing to do but Griffin is a winner. He’s got elite hockey sense, he’s 6-foot-4, he’s a defenceman and we need defencemen. He won a Memorial Cup Championship, he was the captain. He would have taken us there, I believe, when he was 18 but he got injured in the Conference Final that year. We took Portland to six games and maybe we could have won that series if we had him in the lineup. Did he struggle this year in the American League? I guess he did. But I believe in Griffin as a player and I think he’s going to be just fine.”

    Dating back to 2012 there has always been interest in Reinhart for the Oilers. He’s stayed on their radar so there was a lot of information to be shared at the Oilers draft table when the calls were being made.

    “We had a lot of people in our organization, including Bob, that we’ve spoken (with about) Griffin over the last two months and two days, the length of my tenure. To get players that you know, that’s important,” said Oilers GM Peter Chiarelli

    http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=772521

    This was a trade for which negotiations already begun before Chiarelli entered the picture. Shame on Chiarelli for listening to them.

  48. HT Joe says:

    LT’s post said: “Who else is on the list, then? I think they go 8 skaters and a G. My list: Cam Talbot, Andrej Sekera, Oscar Klefbom, Adam Larsson, Griffin Reinhart, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Milan Lucic, Jordan Eberle, Leon Draisaitl.”

    It would be so Oilers if the Oilers protect Reinhart, and Vegas picks up Yak.

    The overall assets needed to get and retain Reinhart would then become:
    (2012 1st overall) + (2015 16th overall) + (2015 33rd overall) –> (2012 4th overall)

    The line above lacks context and nuance, but it would beautifully summarize how bad the Oilers have been at drafting, developing and trading over the last decade. Good lord…

    (And for everyone who says that Yak hasn’t developed properly, please keep in mind that a healthy Yak would have played the full season, while Reinhart played only 29 games on what was one of the worst blue lines in the league.)

  49. LadiesloveSmid says:

    just one more year of tanking and there’s a RHD at the top of the draft!

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=224910

  50. HT Joe says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    just one more year of tanking and there’s a RHD at the top of the draft!

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=224910

    Am I the only one that believes that another bottom-3 finish in the league will finally start to hurt season ticket sales?

  51. Centre of attention says:

    HT Joe: Am I the only one that believes that another bottom-3 finish in the league will finally start to hurt season ticket sales?

    You ever seen that McDavid kid live? Yeah. That good.

  52. Centre of attention says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    just one more year of tanking and there’s a RHD at the top of the draft!

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=224910

    You’re dead to me, lol. Seriously though, I’m still mad about winning our way out of the Ekblad sweepstakes. SO damn close!

  53. Woodguy says:

    Ca$h-McMoney!: Doesn’t the write up say his Qual Team is first pairing?

    Maybe I don’t understand the stat but it seemed to me like his d partner was usually Gryba or Oesterle

    That probably more reflective of the forwards he played with the most rather than his D partners.

  54. Woodguy says:

    Ok, as promised here are the DFF/60 Rel Comp for the Oiler Dmen.

    I’m not sure how much Dmen drive offence, but I do know they can drive possession somewhat.

    As Ca$h-McMoney! noted, Reinharts QT is pretty high, suggesting he played behind good F’s.

    That probably affects his results somewhat.

    Until GMoney does the WOWY, we won’t know. (note: GET ON IT G!!)

    Player DFF60RelComp vs. Elite
    Griffin Reinhart 3.9
    Oscar Klefbom 2.2
    Jordan Oesterle 1.8
    Eric Gryba 0.2
    Justin Schultz -1.6
    Darnell Nurse -1.8
    Brandon Davidson -2.5
    Mark Fayne -2.9
    Andrej Sekera -3.1
    Adam Larsson -4.7

    Hands up who saw this coming?

    So Griff has the best Rel Dangerous Fenwick For and the worst Against vs. Elites. Interesting.

    Player DFF60RelComp vs. Middle
    Oscar Klefbom 7.5
    Justin Schultz 2.4
    Jordan Oesterle 1.8
    Brandon Davidson 0.7
    Andrej Sekera 0.3
    Eric Gryba 0.1
    Mark Fayne -2.3
    Darnell Nurse -3.2
    Griffin Reinhart -4.2
    Adam Larsson -6

    Now he falls down again.

    WOWY’s needed for sure to suss this out. Sample size issues may be raising their heads as well.

    Also, Oscar is Dreamy because Oscar is Dreamy

    Also, yes it seems that Larsson is where offence goes to die. I don’t know why but it shows up in every metric.

    That trade………..

  55. Klima's_Bucket says:

    Woodguy: That trade………..

    Which one?

    The Hall one or the Reinhart one?

  56. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Woodguy,

    Larsson’s For numbers seems to be like outrageously bad, is he totally inept at moving the puck or can we chalk a ton up to deployment and teammates? Does it match the eye test of devils fans?

    not like his percentages were super inflated when he put up 1.08 ES P/60 2 seasons ago, wondering where the disconnect here is

  57. BornInAGretzkyJersey says:

    By eye, GR was showing well at the end of last season. He made strides throughout the year and was showing flashes of the player management had in mind when they made the trade.

    He’s young. We wait.

  58. Ca$h-McMoney! says:

    Woodguy,

    There are so many non standard elements of Larsson’s numbers. I’ve moved past the point of trying to understand them. I’m firmly in the wait and see camp. Prayer is optional of course.

  59. Centre of attention says:

    Woodguy,

    Larsson was also given the least offensive opportunity of anyone in the league. He was below Boyd Gordon level.

    While I don’t think Larsson will be Paul Coffey, there is no reason to believe that Larsson can’t score 25-30 points in a season while providing a solid two-way game.

  60. BONVIE says:

    I wouldn’t get too worked up about Reinhart’s numbers. I think he and Osterle did quite well at the end of the season playing as either the Oilers top pair or second pair, depending on what lines they matched up against. What other NHL team would take a defenseman with less than 30 NHL games and pair him up with a completely raw rookie with no NHL experience and run them against other teams top lines? The answer is only the Oilers. It’s really hard to try to analyze these numbers knowing the situation Reinhart and Osterlw were put in, I see guys on here comparing other first and second year defenseman on other teams against our own knowing full well that on other teams the rookie is either playing on the bottom pair or he is playing in a spot where his partner is a veteran who is more than capable of playing that level of competition.

    The equivalent in minor hockey to this situation would be to have an injury on your defense and then AP a defenseman from the age group below then pair him up with a first year and play them as your top pair. Then at the end of the game when your pair is a minus 4 saying “I thought this player we were APing was good, what the heck happened they got outplayed. This scenario may sound absolutely ridiculous to anybody that was involved in minor hockey, but these guys running this organization do it all the time. Then we have posters analyzing the numbers of these poor young D placed in these ridiculous situations and comparing them to similar D on other NHL teams paired with quality veteran D partners and they act like all things are equal.

  61. godot10 says:

    anjinsan:
    I wish we were instead talking about how great Barzal/Kyle Connor and Brandom Carlo/Blackwood/Andersson/Kylington were progressing.One thing you omitted was that GR was passed by others in the Islander pipeline.

    Passed by who. Pulock was battling with Zidlicky for 3rd pairing minutes, behind Boychuk and Hamonic. And the left side is Leddy, DeHaan, and HIckey.

    Nobody passed Reinhart. None of the Islander young guys have broken decisively into the roster.

    They thought so highly of Pulock, they brought in Zidlicky to play 50 games to Pulock’s 20.

    Peleck and Mayfield played 9 and 6 games to Straits 52.

    Snow and Capuano don’t seem to have confidence in ANY of their young guys.

    So NOBODY passed Reinhart. Nobody.

  62. godot10 says:

    Klima’s_Bucket:
    I actually like Reinhart, but given the leftorium, I feel a wiser move would have been to keep the powder dry last summer and just draft the BPA instead of overreacting after losing out on the Hamilton sweepstakes.

    Then later on, make your move for a right shot Dman.

    All Chiarelli had last summer on the left side when he traded for Reinhart was Klefbom, two deadbeats in Ference and Nikitin, a graduating 1st round draft pick CHL’er, and an AHL vet who had played about 20 NHL games all told.

    It was Klefbom and a whole lot of nothing (proven).

  63. godot10 says:

    PunjabiOil:

    His poor skating and lack of firs step is what will hold him back from being a legit NHL defencemen.

    Reinhart ISN’T a poor skater. Early last year he was slow making decision. If one lacks assertiveness in decision-making, one appear slow.

    Musil is slow. Reinhart isn’t.

  64. godot10 says:

    season not played:
    I just remember thinking what a bad pick by Snow in that spot and also remember screaming at the TV when they were announcing the trade at the draft “better not be for Griffen Reinhart!”

    There are those that believe at the time acquiring a lefty at that point wasn’t an issue because they hadn’t yet signed Sekera but they only had left handed prospects at the time and therefore needed to be thinking righty then as well.

    Unless they flip a lefty of some value, not three minor league lefties for an NHL righty, one of these guys is going to figure out how to play on the right side.

    Davidson spent nearly all of his AHL career on the right side, babysitting a chaos D in Brad Hunt. Ideal training to be 3rd pairing right D for Nurse.

  65. frjohnk says:

    Woodguy: Also, yes it seems that Larsson is where offence goes to die. I don’t know why but it shows up in every metric.

    Its New Jersey’s system. I think with the Oilers we will see his shots metrics for and offense bubble up to the surface. His defensive metrics will take a hit though.

  66. Bruce McCurdy says:

    anjinsan:
    anjinsan says:
    August 6, 2016 at 11:09 am

    I wish we were instead talking about how great Barzal/Kyle Connor and Brandom Carlo/Blackwood/Andersson/Kylington were progressing. One thing you omitted was that GR was passed by others in the Islander pipeline.

    And I wish we were instead talking about how the Great One retired an Oiler with more Stanley Cup rings than fingers to put them on. Unfortunately, reality intervenes and at some point one has to learn to deal with what Actually Happened.

  67. Klima's_Bucket says:

    godot10,

    True, Chiarelli didn’t have much for D.
    But I still think giving up those high picks in a deep draft for a guy that *might* be a steady top 4 option was an overpay.

    Trading Hall for Larsson was an overpay as well, but at least Larsson has shown he’s a capable top 4 guy in the NHL whereas Reinhart hasn’t and it’s almost been five years.

    However, there’s still time for him to Brandon Davidson it if he puts in the work on his quickness both with his feet and with his mind.

    Here’s hoping.

  68. SwedishPoster says:

    Bruce McCurdy: And I wish we were instead talking about how the Great One retired an Oiler with more Stanley Cup rings than fingers to put them on. Unfortunately, reality intervenes and at some point one has to learn to deal with what Actually Happened.

    What? Don’t you know that if you beat a dead horse long enough it turns into a Porsche. You just have to keep at it.

  69. Lowetide says:

    godot10: Reinhart ISN’T a poor skater.Early last year he was slow making decision.If one lacks assertiveness in decision-making, one appear slow.

    Musil is slow.Reinhart isn’t.

    I think this will slide away in due time, but the verbal surrounding GRs footspeed is pretty crazy.

  70. Woodguy says:

    frjohnk: Its New Jersey’s system.I think with the Oilers we will see his shots metrics for and offense bubble up to the surface.His defensive metrics will take a hit though.

    There’s no doubt that that how he was deployed and the fact that it was NJD plays a big role, but I don’t know how big.

    Look at these Zone Start Rates (ZSR = (OFO+DFO)/OFO) for Larsson (1st pair) , Severson (2nd) and Schlemko (3rd pair)

    Larsson 31.82
    Severson 57.00
    Schlemko 57.87

    Its nuts.

    Here’s the % of TOI that each of those Dman faced WoodMoney defined Elite forwards:

    Larsson 42%
    Severson 25%
    Schlemko 25%

    Here’s the same 3 players and their RelxGF%

    Larsson +1.17%
    Severson -1.19%
    Schlemko +4.86%

    The combo of these 3 sets of information is what makes me pretty bullish on Larsson..

    -Totally buried
    -Plays the toughs way more than others
    -Still puts up a positive expected GF%.

    This is also why when I’ve seen people write about how bad Larsson is and that Severson is probably better than him I think “you really haven’t looked that deep have you?”

    All this said, his Rel DFF/60 isn’t good, neither is his Rel xGF/60, he just makes up for a lot of it with his amazing defensive play.

  71. Klima's_Bucket says:

    Woodguy,

    You’ve crunched a lot of numbers, but have you watched a lot of film on Larsson?
    I like what your numbers are saying, but admittedly I haven’t watched him play much.

  72. Woodguy says:

    Klima’s_Bucket:
    Woodguy,

    You’ve crunched a lot of numbers, but have you watched a lot of film on Larsson?
    I like what your numbers are saying, but admittedly I haven’t watched him play much.

    Not enough to get a handle on it.

    I’m up to 8 games, but I want to re-set and see what NJD is actually trying to accomplish once the puck is out of the dzone when Larsson-Green are on the ice.

    In a few games I watched sometimes they got the hell off the ice when the puck moved north and the Dmen coming on got some credit for the subsequent shot attempt for.

    I’d like to watch and count stuff like this but I just don’t have enough time right now.

  73. Bruce McCurdy says:

    PunjabiOil: “I know what he brings,” said Oilers Director of Player Personnel and former Oil Kings General Manager Bob Green. “I know what he brought in junior. He played one year pro, he’s got developing to do but Griffin is a winner. He’s got elite hockey sense, he’s 6-foot-4, he’s a defenceman and we need defencemen. He won a Memorial Cup Championship, he was the captain. He would have taken us there, I believe, when he was 18 but he got injured in the Conference Final that year. We took Portland to six games and maybe we could have won that series if we had him in the lineup. Did he struggle this year in the American League? I guess he did. But I believe in Griffin as a player and I think he’s going to be just fine.”

    I’m wondering which syllable of Green’s statement you are disagreeing with? He says right in there “he’s got developing to do”. He also said “I believe in Griffin as a player” which he did when he drafted him with a high first-round pick in the (2009!) WHL bantam draft, when he had him as an every game regular at 16 and a captain at 18.

    Do you think maybe Bob Green knows a thing or two about this player, and person? I do.

    Do you think that the (acknowledged) struggles in GR’s one year of pro somehow invalidates the previous several years of performance, for which Bob Green had a front row seat? I don’t.

  74. HT Joe says:

    Centre of attention: You ever seen that McDavid kid live? Yeah. That good.

    I only got to see McDavid at the Flyers game where he got injured… glorious player live. That said, some smart people last year quipped that even the Oilers couldn’t mess this situation up. I’ve been burned enough by this team to not succumb to unearned optimism.

  75. Bruce McCurdy says:

    frjohnk: Its New Jersey’s system.I think with the Oilers we will see his shots metrics for and offense bubble up to the surface.His defensive metrics will take a hit though.

    New Jersey has always had damn weird stats. I remember Tyler Dellow talking about this as well, they’ve always been odd. I think Lou got to the minor officials years ago to count things “his way”.

  76. Bruce McCurdy says:

    SwedishPoster: What? Don’t you know that if you beat a dead horse long enough it turns into a Porsche. You just have to keep at it.

    Haha yeah. I guess I just need to keep wishing away that Gretzky sell-off for another 30 or 40 years and maybe dementia will do the rest.

  77. Woogie63 says:

    We are going to have,

    Klefbom, Larsson, Nurse and Reinhart running our defence for the next 8 years. The rest help us get there.

  78. russ99 says:

    Bruce McCurdy: I’m wondering which syllable of Green’s statement you are disagreeing with? He says right in there “he’s got developing to do”. He also said “I believe in Griffin as a player” which he did when he drafted him with a high first-round pick in the (2009!) WHL bantam draft, when he had him as an every game regular at 16 and a captain at 18.

    Do you think maybe Bob Green knows a thing or two about this player, and person? I do.

    Do you think that the (acknowledged) struggles in GR’s one year of pro somehow invalidates the previous several years of performance, for which Bob Green had a front row seat? I don’t.

    Inside information is a hindrance when you make a move you normally wouldn’t because of it.

    The most damning thing is how they went hard after Reinhart even after a very poor first AHL year, the Green is quoted about how he didn’t see him in the pros.

    There some hope the kid, but he’s gotta bring it soon.

  79. Woodguy says:

    godot10: All Chiarelli had last summer on the left side when he traded for Reinhart was Klefbom, two deadbeats in Ference and Nikitin, a graduating 1st round draft pick CHL’er, and an AHL vet who had played about 20 NHL games all told.

    It was Klefbom and a whole lot of nothing (proven).

    He also had Marincin who showed well vs. the best in the NHL with Petry.

  80. PunjabiOil says:

    Do you think that the (acknowledged) struggles in GR’s one year of pro somehow invalidates the previous several years of performance, for which Bob Green had a front row seat? I don’t.

    Not fully, but you have to examine why GR struggled in his first year at pro. By his own admission, he never saw him play at the pro level.

    The AHL is alot different than junior (where size advantage (that is no longer prevalent in the NHL)

    Look, GR was a questionable prospect and the questions haven’t been resolved. The price, in one of the deepest drafts in the past decade, was very steep. It definitely appears as a panic trade (or plan B) in response to Hamilton going to Calgary – but much like the Hall trade, it was not something they had to do and probably should have showed more patience. A prospect like Barzal or Connor would be looking very good in the prospect depth chart, or at the very least could be used in part of a trade package.

    I firmly believe these two trades by Chiarelli are much worse than anything Tambellini/MacT did just because of the long-term damage to the organization.

  81. godot10 says:

    Woodguy: He also had Marincin who showed well vs. the best in the NHL with Petry.

    Marincin wasn’t signing another contract with the OIlers. The relationship between the team and the player was irrevocably ruptured by MacT and Eakins, and their mistreatment of him.

    Chiarelli entered down Petry and Marincin because of MacT’s ineptitude.

  82. AsiaOil says:

    PunjabiOil: I firmly believe these two trades by Chiarelli are much worse than anything Tambellini/MacT did just because of the long-term damage to the organization.

    Reinhart for magic beans is “much worse” than Petry for a low 2nd round pick? You honestly believe that?

  83. anjinsan says:

    Godot10

    http://www.theoilersrig.com/2016/03/peter-chiarelli-grading-year-one/

    By June 2015 Reinhart ‘s development was well behind his draft year cohort.
    See the above article — Reinhart was behind at least two more recently drafted D in the Islander pipeline. Assert otherwise, but few, and very, very few if any outside Edmonton agree.
    Reinhart is SSSSLLLLLLOOOOOWWWW. Just watch him — he has logs for legs.

    Chiarelli erred badly in a deep draft. We should have had two high first round grade prospects for 16 and 33: http://www.todaysslapshot.com/nhl-west/edmonton-oilers/oilers-erred-by-trading-for-griffin-reinhart/

  84. PunjabiOil says:

    Reinhart for magic beans is “much worse” than Petry for a low 2nd round pick? You honestly believe that?

    They were both foolish. The ”magic beans” in the GR trade were very talented prospects after Boston went off the board in the 12th-14th OV selections.

    Even if you like GR, there was no reason to pay that price.

    None.

  85. Oilspill says:

    Braden28:
    Woodguy,

    Why do some Dmen (Nurse, Kelfbom, Davidson) do worse against the middle? Quality of Teammates? Sample size?

    I’m struggling to see why we can make statements about player’s abilities, when the data suggests they do worse against lesser opponents.

    Probably the vast errors in collecting the actual data. The day it’s done automatically the day metrics gain some credibility.

  86. AsiaOil says:

    Reinhard developed just fine last year (especially the last 20 games) and the unsubstantiated hate for a developing young dman like this simply baffles me. Most people slamming the trade simply cherry pick the best prospects available at those draft positions and then adjust as necessary going forward to keep their case from looking ridiculous. Don’t see anyone moaning about missing Stephans anymore – no problem – just pick a different guy who in hindsight looks better and keep the story going. Barzal is not an elite prospect. RNH was shy in terms of scoring goals in the WHL and he looks like Ovechkin compared to Barzal. Then again they could have, and likely would have, taken a different player instead of a slight, offensively unspectacular player like Barzal. If Barzal doesn’t turn out to be an allstar people will simply suggest they could have picked someone else who looks better. it’s a totally dishonest argument they can never lose.

    As for GR versus Davidson. Chia decided to keep Davey on the roster as an 8th dman when many people said he wasn’t worth worrying about at TC last year – and he kept him while sending GR back to the AHL. He’s way smarter than certain armchair quarterbacks with adjustable rearview mirrors appear to be.

  87. Oilspill says:

    godot10: Reinhart ISN’T a poor skater.Early last year he was slow making decision.If one lacks assertiveness in decision-making, one appear slow.

    Musil is slow.Reinhart isn’t.

    First of all most tall guys look slower because of lower stride cadence. Most of thle people who dont know much just look at stride cadence. They don’t look at stride length. That’s why short legged guys seem faster.

  88. AsiaOil says:

    So after BOS turned down a better offer for Hamilton from Chia – which other young defensemen of a quality as good or better than GR have been moved for less in the last year? Point to a single deal that meets your criteria of appropriate value other than the total give away of Hamilton that Chia was denied even though he offered more.

    The sound of crickets will be deafening.

    PunjabiOil:
    Reinhart for magic beans is “much worse” than Petry for a low 2nd round pick? You honestly believe that?

    They were both foolish.The ”magic beans” in the GR trade were very talented prospects after Boston went off the board in the 12th-14th OV selections.

    Even if you like GR, there was no reason to pay that price.

    None.

  89. PunjabiOil says:

    Reinhard developed just fine last year (especially the last 20 games) and the unsubstantiated hate for a developing young dman like this simply baffles me. Most people slamming the trade simply cherry pick the best prospects available at those draft positions and then adjust as necessary going forward to keep their case from looking ridiculous. Don’t see anyone moaning about missing Stephans anymore – no problem – just pick a different guy who in hindsight looks better and keep the story going. Barzal is not an elite prospect. RNH was shy in terms of scoring goals in the WHL and he looks like Ovechkin compared to Barzal. Then again they could have, and likely would have, taken a different player instead of a slight, offensively unspectacular player like Barzal. If Barzal doesn’t turn out to be an allstar people will simply suggest they could have picked someone else who looks better. it’s a totally dishonest argument they can never lose.

    As for GR versus Davidson. Chia decided to keep Davey on the roster as an 8th dman when many people said he wasn’t worth worrying about at TC last year – and he kept him while sending GR back to the AHL. He’s way smarter than certain armchair quarterbacks with adjustable rearview mirrors appear to be .

    Barzal and Connor weren’t hindsight. Thos were the prospects that were at the top of the board, and Barzal was in the top 10 in may rankings.

    Barzal may not turn out, but he’s had a strong season and only enhanced his value from last season. Likewise, Connor elevated his. These are the prospects that could have been used instead of giving up the elite driver in Hall for the RHD.

    Reinhart, despite what you say, had a relatively disappointing season. Struggled in the NHL on multiple occasions, proved he cannot play the toughs yet, and wasn’t even the top option in the AHL and had many questionable/poor reviews down there. Tyler Dellow, before he was hired, wrote an article on why Reinhart was a poor selection and a suspect prospect. Maybe pre-2004 lockout Reinhart would have looked better – but make no question, his first step needs some work before he is an above replacement level NHL defenceman.

  90. PunjabiOil says:

    So after BOS turned down a better offer for Hamilton from Chia – which other young defensemen of a quality as good or better than GR have been moved for less in the last year? Point to a single deal that meets your criteria of appropriate value other than the total give away of Hamilton that Chia was denied even though he offered more.

    That does not necessarily mean you leave value on the table or overpay.

    The goal is to maximize the value of your assets. If you can’t, then you step away – which is what most GMs have done as exemplified by the lack of trades.

    The other issue was Reinhart wasn’t ready to contribute at the NHL level either. Overpaying could make some sense if you’re giving up for a known quality – problem is, Reinhart was (and still is) a question mark.

  91. AsiaOil says:

    PunjabiOil: The other issue was Reinhart wasn’t ready to contribute at the NHL level either. Overpaying could make some sense if you’re giving up for a known quality – problem is, Reinhart was (and still is) a question mark.

    Reinhart played top pair minutes in the NHL at the end of last year – not effectively – but I would consider that “contributing” far more than draft picks who are even bigger question marks. No one can say who the Oilers would have selected. Deciding that on your own is constructing an argument you can’t lose. I notice you are not bemoaning the 2nd round Stephan’s pick (you are certainly not alone in that).

    The only way to evaluate this trade will be games played and/or points scored, and at this point, GR has contributed in a real way far more than those draft picks. It’s not even close actually. That may change in the future but it also may not depending on if/how those picks develop. Deciding that this is a disastrous trade at this point in time is therefore based on absolutely zero evidence. It may turn out badly but there is no way to know that now. In my opinion Chia paid in full for the asset based on expected games played for both GR and the picks. We will see.

  92. PunjabiOil says:

    Reinhart played top pair minutes in the NHL at the end of last year – not effectively – but I would consider that “contributing” far more than draft picks who are even bigger question marks. No one can say who the Oilers would have selected.

    Playing minutes is one thing. Playing them at a level above replacement level is another.

    True – we don’t know if the Oilers would have taken Barzal/Connor/Ek-Eriksson.

    We do know however, those were the guys available and top ranked, and would likely (or should have been) selected.

    Again, it’s all about value, You can’t move ahead as an organization if you are overpaying, especially for question marks.


    Deciding that on your own is constructing an argument you can’t lose. I notice you are not bemoaning the 2nd round Stephan’s pick (you are certainly not alone in that).
    .

    Teams lists vary more in the second round versus the first sound. So it could have been Stephan or Sebastian Aho. We don’t know.

    What we do know is that GR value has gone down in a year, and he would not garner as much as a guy like Barzal on the trade market to address team needs (RHD)


    The only way to evaluate this trade will be games played and/or points scored, and at this point, GR has contributed in a real way far more than those draft picks. It’s not even close actually. That may change in the future but it also may not depending on if/how those picks develop. Deciding that this is a disastrous trade at this point in time is therefore based on absolutely zero evidence. It may turn out badly but there is no way to know that now. In my opinion Chia paid in full for the asset based on expected games played for both GR and the picks. We will see.
    .

    Rarely do people who suggest ”we will see” circle back and acknowledge they should have been harsher in their initial assessment.

    We have information on Reinhart. He’s been here two pro seasons, and still is not above replacement level. Could that change? Sure. Even his biggest supporters however would acknowledge his ceiling is a top 4 defencemen at best. This was not a deal they had to do, and since GR did not meaningfully contribute last season, it didn’t help win in the short-term either.

    Also find it amusing this line “Deciding that this is a disastrous trade at this point in time is therefore based on absolutely zero evidence” while in the same breath pointing out Stephan’s failure in his draft plus 1 season.

    Don’t get me wrong – I hope GR and Adam Larsson succeed. I just think they were poor bets, and the fans are left hoping for the best case scenarios for the deals to work out.

  93. Pechetr says:

    Bruce McCurdy,

    Amen…The horse is dead stop beating it. GR and Larsson will be just fine. i know there is a significant lack of patience in this fan base and rightfully so, but these 2 D men will require some. GR is still very green and Larsson is coming to an entirely new team/system. Be a shame to see the fan base run these two off prematurely as they have done so many times before.

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