SEPTEMBER SONG

It is September. The leaves are turning, the mornings are cool and there is just a hint of fall. Beautiful, gorgeous, hockey, fall. Rain down on me, fall, and bring me the hockey.

The Edmonton Oilers have a helluva player in Benoit Pouliot. The man was effective across the board, as Corsica.hockey tells us:

  • Pouliot—McDavid—Eberle: 56.30 Corsi for 5×5 in 147 minutes.
  • Pouliot—Nuge—Eberle: 52.87 Corsi for 5×5 in 211 minutes.
  • Pouliot—McDavid—Yakupov: 51.72 Corsi for 5×5 in 127 minutes.

Benoit Pouliot has a range of skills. In the Montreal game, it was he who cradled that ridiculous pass from McDavid and then shot early, catching Carey Price flat-footed. He is excellent (we have talked about this) at disrupting sorties, so he is naturally good at creative offensive off the forecheck. Benoit Pouliot is an underrated player in my opinion, and I am pleased he remains on this roster. That’s it. That’s all. I just think people overlook him and they really shouldn’t. If Las Vegas gets him a year from now, I will be unhappy. Helluva player. I would not be at all surprised to see him spend much of the season with Connor McDavid. Chemistry. It’s the real thing.

ADAM LARSSON

One of the frustrating things about this summer is that Peter Chiarelli’s trade target lacks obvious curb appeal. We will know 40 games into the 2016-17 season (I know some of you have watched snippets or games, but it takes time to find the range with a player, especially a defender) about what he brings. Aside from reputation, the boxcars and the Corsi’s, what do we know for sure?

  • Darcy McLeod: If I were to just look at corsi and corsi WOWY’s I’d probably conclude that Severson is a better Dman than Larsson. When I looked a little deeper I found: -Larsson has the toughest zone starts in the NHL, while Severson had some of the easiest zone starts in the NHL.
    -Larsson has better expected goal results with more players than Severson
    -Larrson outperformed Severson in 7 of the 8 expected goal metrics that we examined with the centers despite having much tough zone starts.
    -Larsson’s TOI% against elite forwards was almost twice as high as Severson Its pretty easy to conclude that Larsson is the better Dman when you include all of these factors.
  • Source

SEARCHING FOR A CENTER

Jim Matheson has an article up at the EJ about the Oilers pursuing a center via PTO and Matty also confirms via Peter Chiarelli that Eric Gryba has been offered a PTO. Does that change anything? I would argue yes. The names mentioned in the article are pretty much what we discussed the other day, although I must say David Legwand would be an interesting get. As is the case with so many of these veteran centers, the slow boots are an issue but the Oilers should have room anyway. I think Legwand—Gryba would be facing very specific competition:

  • Legwand would need to prove more useful than Anton Lander, who I have as 14F. You may have Iiro Pakarinen there, but one suspects Todd McLellan has the Finn penciled in as a roster player. Lander and Legwand (I am using him as an example) could both make the team, but only (imo) if Jesse Puljujarvi is sent down.
  • Gryba would be in direct competition with David Musil (who is waiver eligible) and Jordan Oesterle (who is not waiver eligible).

ADD LEGWAND, GRYBA AND SUBTRACT PULJUJARVI

OILERS 16-17 WITH LEGWAND AND GRYBA

This is the team without Puljujarvi and represents the least impressive offense possible (in my opinion). Kassian could be productive this high in the order, but counting on it seems an unusual idea. As summer fades to fall, we will find out about Jesse Puljujarvi, and this roster represents the less dynamic option. I am bewildered by the lack of speed up front. You?

LEGWAND/GRYBA ADDED, WITH LANDER OUT

OILERS POTENTIAL ROSTER LEGWAND

This is the roster with Legwand and Gryba in, plus Lander and (say) Musil out. If Puljujarvi is healthy and productive, I think this is probably the best possible lineup. The question I have? Is Legwand superior to Lander? Is Gryba a better option than Musil? I don’t know that answer.

AS IS

OILERS PROJECTED ROSTER AUG 17

I am uncertain Legwand/Gryba would move the needle, to be honest. For me, Lander has more potential than one year of Legwand. Gryba is probably more useful to coach McLellan than Musil, and since we are talking defensemen chances are both men would play a lot (Oilers will employ far more than seven blue this coming year). What are your thoughts on this?

LOWDOWN WITH LOWETIDE

At 10, Lowdown with Lowetide—TSN1260. Scheduled to appear:

  • Darcy McLeod, Because Oilers. We will discuss Adam Larsson and Nail Yakupov.
  • Colin Miller, FC Edmonton. Eddies brilliant coach discusses the season and the big game this weekend.
  • JD Burke, Canucks Army. Vancouver is universally regarded as the weakest Western Canadian team. Is that fair?
  • Corey Graham, Oil Kings PBP. Training camp is underway and things get going in a quick hurry now. How does the team look?

10-1260 text, @Lowetide on twitter. Talk soon!

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126 Responses to "SEPTEMBER SONG"

  1. PunjabiOil says:

    Peter Mueller is the only centre that is available for PTO that has some modicum of offence.

    He would be my choice

  2. Ducey says:

    Legwand is just Matheson’s throw out. Apparently Drew Stafford is unavailable.

    Matheson mentions that Legwand is a 46% career faceoff guy. Doesn’t sound like he is who you want in a 4th line C. At least Lander can win a faceoff.

    I suppose it doesn’t hurt to invite one of these guys to camp in case Lander’s hands are still broken.

  3. Lowetide says:

    PunjabiOil:
    Peter Mueller is the only centre that is available for PTO that has some modicum of offence.

    He would be my choice

    Is Mueller a center? He wasn’t in the NHL but maybe he has added that over the years.

  4. Ca$h-McMoney! says:

    I still feel like there are teams that are tight to the cap that would give up a quality if overpaid player for very little. SJ and Philly seem like the most obvious two. I’d spend my time there. Wingels, Raffl, Read. Detroit for sure but all of the people that fit the useful but overpaid criteria are guys they just signed, so obviously they don’t want to get rid of them. I guess there is Franzen but I honestly don’t know if he’s even still playing, and he’s got about 3 decades left on that deal.

    Capfriendly is fascinating. Craziest thing? Chicago has only 5 forwards making north of $1m. Waiver wire pickup extrordinair Richard Panik is their sixth highest paid forward at $875k.

    At that price he would be the second cheapest forward on the Oil ahead of only Iiro.

  5. Ducey says:

    PunjabiOil:
    Peter Mueller is the only centre that is available for PTO that has some modicum of offence.

    He would be my choice

    You sure on that?

    He has not played in the NHL in 3 seasons. 2 years ago he only put up 17 points in 34 games in the Swiss league. Last year 25 points in 43 in the Swedish league. I am not sure on the NHLE but its low. And that doesn’t take into account the fact he likely got some PP minutes in Europe and maybe played on some skill lines.

    Perhaps that is a “modicum” but it doesn’t over come that fact he has never been known as a tough minutes C, if he even plays C.

  6. Water Fire says:

    PunjabiOil:
    Peter Mueller is the only centre that is available for PTO that has some modicum of offence.

    He would be my choice

    He seems to be reasonably healthy in Europe, can’t see how it could hurt and he’s young enough to be around a while if it works out.

  7. OF17 says:

    I watched another New Jersey game a couple nights ago (vs Boston on March 29), and it wasn’t as strong of a performance as some of the others. Saw a bit of the “chip it off the glass” play that West was talking about in his account. Larsson still showed good things, just not as many as in the others. Also, thank Gord our team doesn’t play Jersey style hockey. It’s like the Wild under Lemaire in terms of excitement.

    This game reminded me of a point I forgot to add in the last account of Larsson. Andy Greene has really not impressed me in these watch throughs – I think he’s lost a major step – and Larsson is definitely the main puck mover on that pairing. Greene’s most common play with the puck is a cross to Larsson, which I think Boston had scouted. They always had a guy on Larsson when they pressured Greene, and Greene’s passing game isn’t good enough to compensate. Makes me worried for NJ about the Greene-Lovejoy pairing. On the surface it seems a good substitute for Greene-Larsson, but the puck moving element will be gone, and I fear they won’t be able to make it out of their zone. Makes me feel better about Klefbom-Larsson too, since this poor game seemed to come in large part because Boston exposed Greene’s lack of puckmoving ability.

    I agree though LT, it’ll take a while to really get to know this player and how he fits on the team. Klefbom-Larsson is going to be a very different pairing than Greene-Larsson, not to mention the difference in forwards and system play (and likely deployment).

    If you guys haven’t seen this short video before, it’s a good example of how Larsson looks when he’s on his game. Also a good example of how Greene relies on Larsson for puck moving and how it’s a weakness in his game (look at that glorious chance to pass to Palmieri that Greene passes up near the beginning). https://twitter.com/Jthompson2380/status/749405902374051841

  8. B S says:

    Lander is solid defensively and on the dot. So whoever is brought in to replace him has to add more offense. It’s not a high bar based on the last couple of seasons, but to me it is the bare minimum. If they aren’t sure the new guy can outscore Lander, I don’t know why they bother.

    I also don’t know why JP needs to be on the team. His NHLE wasn’t terribly high, and a veteran third line center pushes Drai to RW, with defensive coverage on the third line.

    Edit: I don’t know why JP needs to be on the team this season…

  9. TO10801 says:

    Ca$h-McMoney!,

    Minnesota is pretty close to the cap as well I wonder what it would take to pry Granlund or maybe even Coyle away from them. Probably would cost too much. I think Chia is offering PTOs for the depth positions but I’m still hoping the play is to wait for the Boychuk/Leddy trades to become available to fill 3C if Drai goes to the wing and/or to find a competent RH power play specialist.

  10. TO10801 says:

    B S,

    This is why a guy like Legwand doesn’t make sense imo. I don’t know if it would be that great of an upgrade over lander. The only reason I can see Chia targeting Legwand/Richards is that he wants more vets hanging around the bottom 6Fs

  11. hags9k says:

    Lander has more potential sure, but if we are desperate to move the needle during 97’s ELC don’t we have to say Legwand would outperform Lander this year?

    And keep in mind injuries could have both of them seeing a lot of ice, and Legwand would be a valuable vet for all our young centers to learn from, from Lander to McDavid.

    Sure doesn’t hurt to have a look at his boots in camp.

  12. Chachi says:

    OF17:
    I watched another New Jersey game a couple nights ago (vs Boston on March 29), and it wasn’t as strong of a performance as some of the others. Saw a bit of the “chip it off the glass” play that West was talking about in his account. Larsson still showed good things, just not as many as in the others. Also, thank Gord our team doesn’t play Jersey style hockey. It’s like the Wild under Lemaire in terms of excitement.

    This game reminded me of a point I forgot to add in the last account of Larsson. Andy Greene has really not impressed me in these watch throughs – I think he’s lost a major step – and Larsson is definitely the main puck mover on that pairing. Greene’s most common play with the puck is a cross to Larsson, which I think Boston had scouted. They always had a guy on Larsson when they pressured Greene, and Greene’s passing game isn’t good enough to compensate. Makes me worried for NJ about the Greene-Lovejoy pairing. On the surface it seems a good substitute for Greene-Larsson, but the puck moving element will be gone, and I fear they won’t be able to make it out of their zone. Makes me feel better about Klefbom-Larsson too, since this poor game seemed to come in large part because Boston exposed Greene’s lack of puckmoving ability.

    I agree though LT, it’ll take a while to really get to know this player and how he fits on the team. Klefbom-Larsson is going to be a very different pairing than Greene-Larsson, not to mention the difference in forwards and system play (and likely deployment).

    If you guys haven’t seen this short video before, it’s a good example of how Larsson looks when he’s on his game. Also a good example of how Greene relies on Larsson for puck moving and how it’s a weakness in his game (look at that glorious chance to pass to Palmieri that Greene passes up near the beginning).https://twitter.com/Jthompson2380/status/749405902374051841

    I honestly don’t think “Cory West” knows what he is talking about at all.

  13. Pouzar says:

    OF17,

    Thx for the Larsson updates!

  14. Chachi says:

    Ca$h-McMoney!:
    I still feel like there are teams that are tight to the cap that would give up a quality if overpaid player for very little.SJ and Philly seem like the most obvious two.I’d spend my time there.Wingels, Raffl, Read.Detroit for sure but all of the people that fit the useful but overpaid criteria are guys they just signed, so obviously they don’t want to get rid of them.I guess there is Franzen but I honestly don’t know if he’s even still playing, and he’s got about 3 decades left on that deal.

    Don’t worry, Detroit should be able to offload Franzen’s contract to John Chayka at next years draft in exchange for Detroit’s fifth round pick. Some people will laud Chayka for creatively using cap space Arizona was not going to use to ice a competitive team anyways while Ken Holland literally pisses himself on the draft floor while laughing too long and too hard at yet again pulling one over on little Johnny.

  15. Pouzar says:

    Another one bites the dust.

    “The ZSC Lions have their fourth foreigner found : It is the Swedish offensive defender David Rundblad , who already played last season for Zurich .”

    http://www.nzz.ch/sport/eishockey/zsc-lions-rundblad-vor-der-rueckkehr-ld.114329

  16. rickithebear says:

    Adam Larsson is the best in the 1/2 of the game that wins championships.

    He is in the top 40 at getting the puck to the players that matter in the other 1/2 of the game.

    While facing one of the toughest comp/zs situations for a dman.

  17. OF17 says:

    Chachi: I honestly don’t think “Cory West” knows what he is talking about at all.

    Yeah, I still don’t agree with his account, but I could see more of what he was talking about in this game than in the others. Maybe the next one I’ll watch is that Tampa game he said Larsson got exposed really badly in. Who knows.

    Pouzar,

    No problem, mang!

  18. JJS says:

    The lineup does appear a bit slow but I am beginning to wonder if speed actually does matter as much as we have been led to believe. It certainly helps to have one or two players who can push the D back on the rush but it is a rarity these days to see any player blow by a defender (elite players aside). The league has evolved to one with extremely mobile defenders who can hit wingers in stride, possession play below the dots, intense back checking, and a goalie who can save 92+% of shots faced. I suspect Marchant would get less than half the breakaways he did in today’s game. Systems are too tough now.

  19. OilClog says:

    Pretty sure Lucic didn’t sign here to watch 97 from the bench, his underlying numbers are all superior to Pou, he’s 1LW.

    Pouliot is too much of a liability unfortunately for 1LW, all day for him as the 2LW, plays beautiful hockey beside The Nuge, a kid who can throw up 5pts in a game when he’s not being driven into a square hole by coaching tactics.

    If Maroon dedicated himself this off season, Pou is going to be in a dogfight, no bad penalties, keep that trade value high as possible in October.

  20. Yeti says:

    Given that the typical constraint of ‘NHL or back to junior’ doesn’t apply, I can’t understand why Jesse Puljujarvi would not spend half or more of the season in the AHL. He will likely come into camp and look good, probably scoring some goals in the practice games and giving us a glimpse of his undoubted talent. But the right thing to do is still to send him down, let him find his feet on North American ice, and then tentatively insert him into the lineup. It seems a perfect situation. Too perfect for the Oil.

  21. Drew says:

    Great read LT.

    Surprised that the EJ still covers sports, could it be a bot generating content?

  22. Centre of attention says:

    OF17,

    Thanks for the report man! I have noticed some similar things too. I think the reason Larsson gets seen making simple plays so often is because he was slightly overwhelmed with the minutes he was playing, and as a young 22-23 year old defenseman he figured making the simple safe play was always better than trying to risk it and create offense. I’m sure his coach in NJ was telling young Larsson the same thing. “Glass and out, don’t get fancy until you’re more comfortable”

    Having a dynamic partner like Klefbom might be the key to unlocking the offensive side of Larsson’s two-way ability. It will be interesting to study for sure!

    PunjabiOil:
    Peter Mueller is the only centre that is available for PTO that has some modicum of offence.

    He would be my choice

    Lowetide,

    In my opinion they only go after Mueller if they trade Yak. Also, I don’t think he plays center. Definitely a great RW option though if one of the current in-house options doesn’t step up.

    Also, Peter Chiarelli will be doing an interview with Stauffer at Noon. Be sure to tune in, should be some tea leaves to read.

  23. classict says:

    Chachi,

    He should probably have been getting a little more in his deals, we can call that inexperienced GMing, but how is getting free picks/players for cap space you can’t even use a bad thing.

    He’s not building a team that’s going to need to worry about Detroit or Florida a lot in the next 3-4 years,

  24. Ducey says:

    Drew:
    Great read LT.

    Surprised that the EJ still covers sports, could it be a bot generating content?

    The Urinal has the Cult of Hockey, which includes our own Bruce. They are quite good. I try and read them as much as possible.

    Frankly, I would prefer their columns in my morning paper instead of Matheson and whoever else is left there. Matheson used to be good because he had access. Now he just has a few old scouts that will return his calls.

  25. classict says:

    OilClog,

    Last year Maroon had a worse penalties draw/taken ratio than Pouliot…Pouliot actually comes out to pretty much even in that he draws almost as many as he takes.

  26. leadfarmer says:

    Once again the guys running the team are a few years behind. Speed is the new size. Hard to win battles when the battle is over before you got there. We would probably be set to compete in 2009

  27. Gordies Elbow says:

    Chachi: I honestly don’t think “Cory West” knows what he is talking about at all.

    I think that the better question is “who is Cory West?” – can’t find anything on him on the interwebs, which is really odd for a hockey guy.

  28. Drew says:

    Ducey: The Urinal has the Cult of Hockey, which includes our own Bruce. They are quite good. I try and read them as much as possible.

    Frankly, I would prefer their columns in my morning paper instead of Matheson and whoever else is left there. Matheson used to be good because he had access. Now he just has a few old scouts that will return his calls.

    I read Bruce and young Jonathon as well (i understand this irks him teehee) and really like their stuff, the other guy (Stables) sometimes writes some OK stuff but i find his resistance to rational thought and data analysis really frustrating. As well I laugh at their pay wall, they have no clue!

    they use to phone me to subscribe, but i told them there was much better writers out there (here) and not to bother me.

  29. G Money says:

    classict,

    And in general, Poo’s results (points, shots, whatever) are also better than Maroon’s across the board. He’s just plain better.

    The gap from Lucic to Poo is bigger than the gap from Poo to Maroon I would say, but it would still be a helluva jump for a 28 year old Maroon to be able to make up that deficit.

    Possible, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

  30. Woogie63 says:

    Slow or punishing? I see this group more able to play Todd’s dump and crash Ozone entry system.

    When the NHL changed the rules so the onside dman can’t slow the winger down when they dump the puck in to the end boards it changed everything about attacking.

    Today we have wingers that are going take the body on that retrieval dman and our defence is going to skate well enough to hold the blueline so the puck stays in the attacking zone.

    I think you are going to see this combinations of players with more minutes on the offensive side of centre ice than we have in the past.

  31. Oilspill says:

    Gryba won’t be here on a PTO. He supposedly has numerous PTO offers as well as contract interests. My nephew spoke to one of his trainers and said it wasn’t an issue of his ability but dollar value.

  32. Caramel Batman says:

    I love how we’ve all come to accept the dump and chase as some kind of choiceworthy strategy.

    And then used that as part of the justification for trading Taylor Hall.

    And talked ourselves into believing this is a good thing.

    While hearing about how good Adam Larsson is at bouncing the puck off the glass.

    Dumping and chasing is what you do when you don’t have any other options. Doing it as part of a plan is bad hockey.

    The good news is I find it hard to believe he really wants that.

  33. Water Fire says:

    Caramel Batman:
    I love how we’ve all come to accept the dump and chase as some kind of choiceworthy strategy.

    And then used that as part of the justification for trading Taylor Hall.

    And talked ourselves into believing this is a good thing.

    While hearing about how good Adam Larsson is at bouncing the puck off the glass.

    Dumping and chasing is what you do when you don’t have any other options.Doing it as part of a plan is bad hockey.

    The good news is I find it hard to believe he really wants that.

    I have been reading here for 8 or 9 years and I can’t recall one time when ‘off the glass and out’ was considered ok by anybody that keeps posting here.

    I also can’t recall anyone relating that to Hall.

  34. slopitch says:

    Lowetide,

    The oilers overall speed up front is lacking but quite good up the middle and on the backend. I think a speedy winger like hall could help there 😉 I kid. I do think proper placement on chip n chase which McClellan seems to like can offset this, although not entirely. How is drake C’s wheels? I think there is opportunity for oilers prospects.

    Does depth need to move the needle or just be depth? I wouldn’t expect legwand or gryba to add a ton but we all like depth right?!?

  35. Water Fire says:

    According to Corsica Mueller didn’t take many faceoffs the last two years in the league, so not a centre. I can’t see them wanting a RW even if they need one. And it makes more sense to get a centre and play them RW.

  36. DenverOilFan says:

    Listening to Lowetide talk about Ziyat Paigin right now. If you want to check out the AK Bars Kazan v CSKA game in progress, this stream is working right now: http://1streamking.co/khlhd

  37. Acumen says:

    Rundblad signing in Europe is frustrating. Between him and Wisniewski we had a couple free options for offense in the 3RD spot. Both gone. This team is incomplete and it seems so obvious, with some clear options that just aren’t being considered. Reminds me of every other offseason for the last decade, starting with Shaggy as our #1 LD option in 06-07 and going to the 2 nhl centres and mud dilemma of a couple years back.

    On the other hand, Buffalo and Ristolainen seem to be having trouble finding common ground on a new contract. Can we put him on a watchlist? Offer sheet him?

  38. Chachi says:

    classict:
    Chachi,

    He should probably have been getting a little more in his deals, we can call that inexperienced GMing, but how is getting free picks/players for cap space you can’t even use a bad thing.

    He’s not building a team that’s going to need to worry about Detroit or Florida a lot in the next 3-4 years,

    If he continues getting taken to the woodshed in trades he will not be the general manager in Arizona in 3 to 4 years.

  39. Chachi says:

    Gordies Elbow: I think that the better question is “who is Cory West?” – can’t find anything on him on the interwebs, which is really odd for a hockey guy.

    Yup, I looked for some trace of him online and could find nothing as well. “Cory West” is either a pseudonym (which is fine) a fraud, or the only person in the world to have as much experience in hockey as he says he does without any of it showing up online.

  40. russ99 says:

    Legwand has been a quality 2-way center most of his career.

    I’d take a flier. Even if his skates are a bit slow and scoring could be off, a defensive center on the bottom six is essential.

  41. season not played says:

    Fast Forwards
    McDavid
    RNH
    JP
    Pouliot
    Average Skating Forwards
    Draisaitl
    Eberle
    Kassian
    Yakupov
    Letestu
    Pakarinen
    Slower Forwards
    Maroon
    Lucic
    Hendricks
    Lander

    Of the average skating guys, Draisaitl has good straight line speed and Yakupov does that jitter bug elusive thing and everyone else is able to get where they need to so I’m not sure about this overall team speed thing. Can’t help but think it is linked to the inability to get over Taylor Hall but anyway. I understand the team has had a lot of success with smaller, fast , “skilled” teams the last decade or so but I am excited to see what a mix of playing styles can accomplish this season.

  42. Pink Socks says:

    Ziyat Paigin update. Don’t post here often, more of a creepy peeping Tom. Watched all of the Ak-Bars game this morning minus the last 10 minutes or so, Paigin was wearing a full face shield which he does not normally wear so without understanding the announcers in the pregame talking about him, I’m assuming it was injury that kept him out the past two games.

    That being said, guy QB’s a powerplay like a champ. Kazan won 2-1, both goals on the PP, both times Paigin was on the ice, he got one assist on a 5 on 3. Guys don’t want to block his shot. Probably a combination of how heavy the shot is, and also the fact that it is Yakupov-esque in its accuracy. He set up a teammate on a beauty of a steal at the O blue, keeping it in the zone and gave him a mini-break but couldn’t cash. Threw a few big hits and looked more than competent in D zone. Really active stick breaking up passes, defended reasonably well on one 2 on 1. He skates surpsingly strong. In the few games I have caught last year and this one from the new season, he looks bonafide to my eye.

  43. Pouzar says:

    Conor McDavid first on the new ice! YAY!

  44. frjohnk says:

    Pouzar:
    Conor McDavid first on the new ice! YAY!

    It’s his house now.

  45. Ryan says:

    Stauffer is offering some gold right now lol

  46. Pouzar says:

    Chia on CHED:

    — Believes Benning can play for Oilers right now
    — Done “for now” regarding acquiring RHD. Will revisit talks after World Cup.
    — Extended PTO offer to a Center already. Looking at a couple more.

  47. Centre of attention says:

    Stauffer contradicted Chiarelli

    Chiarelli:”I’m done for now, maybe revisit things further in the fall…”

    Stauffer “It would not surprise me in the least if the #Oilers make a trade & add a right-shot D between Sept 25th & Oct 10th”

    Stauffer only ever adds the “Don’t be surprised if…” part when he hears stuff. Peter Chiarelli and Todd McLellan will get a great look at Trouba during the world cup. I’m not saying, but I’m just saying.

    Later in the conversation Chiarelli did reference that he was watching negotiations that certain RFA’s are having. (Most definitely Trouba)

  48. Caramel Batman says:

    Chachi: If he continues getting taken to the woodshed in trades he will not be the general manager in Arizona in 3 to 4 years.

    His track record is much better than Chiarelli’s.

    It’s a strange world that Chayka gets criticized while Chiarelli is praised, when Chiarelli has shed so much more actual value than Chayka.

    But he’s young and a nerd and hence is automatically criticized, while Chiarelli has street cred, and hence is automatically defended.

  49. Yegfoundation says:

    I’d like to educate myself on the benefit of using analysis to better understand business problems, and measure the success of potential solutions.

    Is there a book, or blog, that one of the fine readers of this fine blog would recommend?

    Thx!

  50. Side says:

    Caramel Batman: His track record is much better than Chiarelli’s.

    It’s a strange world that Chayka gets criticized while Chiarelli is praised, when Chiarelli has shed so much more actual value than Chayka.

    But he’s young and a nerd and hence is automatically criticized, while Chiarelli has street cred, and hence is automatically defended.

    Tell us more about how Lucic isn’t worth a 7th round pick, and how the Oilers are the only team who made a serious offer for him.

  51. Jethro Tull says:

    Caramel Batman: His track record is much better than Chiarelli’s.

    In what way? Trades? Certainly not playoff or Stanley success. Chayka has too small a sample size, because while Chia did trade away Hall, Seguin and Kessel, he did aquire Chara, among others and ran a competitive team for years.

    Seems like ARI ownership have accepted a slide into mediocrity and appointed a scape-goat.

    Choosing between the league’s salary dumping ground and someone who honestly tries to get better?

    And stop playing the anti-intellectual card. You played it a lot when Eakins was here. I can’t help thinking it’s a very raw topic with you and leads down a road best left forgotten.

  52. Pink Socks says:

    Caramel Batman,

    Caramel Batman: His track record is much better than Chiarelli’s.

    It’s a strange world that Chayka gets criticized while Chiarelli is praised, when Chiarelli has shed so much more actual value than Chayka.

    But he’s young and a nerd and hence is automatically criticized, while Chiarelli has street cred, and hence is automatically defended.

    What? How can Chayka have a better track record? Could have had much more when doing favors for other organizations versus a Stanley Cup winning GM. Like it or not, Chiarelli has a cup, built a terrific team in Boston, and is one year + into his GM stint with the Oilers. We get that the perceived value of Hall was higher to armchair GMs, and the Reinhart deal was a bad one, but good god man every GM is going to flop a trade here and there especially when taking on the dumpster fire he inherited here.

  53. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Pink Socks,

    thanks

    was trying to catch some of it but got distracted, glad to hear he’s finally got a point

  54. Lowetide says:

    Caramel Batman: His track record is much better than Chiarelli’s.

    It’s a strange world that Chayka gets criticized while Chiarelli is praised, when Chiarelli has shed so much more actual value than Chayka.

    Not sure where you are headed here. Most fans, and certainly NHL owners, view success through the lens of winning. Chiarelli is in a different situation with Edmonton, all of his cannons were pointed in the same direction. I do not agree with the trade in terms of value, but understand it in terms of balance.

  55. LadiesloveSmid says:

    season not played,

    does anyone think Draisaitl is just an average skater? I think he’s pretty fast, won fastest skater in his rookie year with Hall out and had some pretty notable streaks down the wing all year

  56. SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo! says:

    My theory is that C. Batman is probably a closet Nuck’s fan who hasn’t quite gotten over that Game 7 in 2011. It would explain the irrational (not too mention counterfactual) hate for Lucic and Chia that we have seen over the last two weeks. As Oiler fans we know the feeling but I’m sure the Caped Canuck at least had fun smashing up a few windows that night.

  57. Pink Socks says:

    LadiesloveSmid,

    For sure, was enjoyable to watch him for the first time this year. He will start tallying more as well. It’s too bad a few of the forwards he was on the ice with that he set up couldn’t cash. Could have easily been a 3 or 4 point night with the chances he created.

  58. vinotintazo says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    season not played,

    does anyone think Draisaitl is just an average skater? I think he’s pretty fast, won fastest skater in his rookie year with Hall out and had some pretty notable streaks down the wing all year

    Agree with you, also I don’t think Lucic is slow, watched him a few times blow past defenders on a video on OilersNation.

  59. digger50 says:

    it is Sept first, are we really here? Contemplating how to fill holes and boost some offence via last minute PTO depth players??

    Hard to believe.

    We should have been looking at second line wingers and third line centers, proven players that were available and now are not. Then we use our own Iro’s, Sleppy’s, and Cagguila’s for depth. One exception I have is Gryba. For Pete’s sake sign him and stop the insulting PTO. We will need every bit of an 8 man defence.

    I have to agree with McMoney’s post in regards to improving the roster this year. And that was that the PTO’s are not likely to make any difference whatsoever. The only chance to improve the team this season is to steal a good player from a cap team. Dam I hope that is the plan.

  60. Caramel Batman says:

    I love how everyone is hoping for a late hour Johnny Boychuk type trade. You do know who was on the wrong end of that trade?

    It is amazing how quickly everyone has turned around on Chiarelli. If anyone else had done what he has done in Edmonton he would be treated like Eakins.

    Instead everyone here, the media, is completely on board with him, going out of their way to defend him.

    Go ahead and count the posts. A strong majority think Chiarelli is doing a good job. I find this unintelligible.

  61. G Money says:

    Yegfoundation:
    I’d like to educate myself on the benefit of using analysis to better understand business problems, and measure the success of potential solutions.

    Is there a book, or blog, that one of the fine readers of this fine blog would recommend?

    Thx!

    One of my holy books on measurement is delightfully titled:

    How to Measure Anything: Finding the Value of “Intangibles” in Business by Douglas Hubbard.

    My viewpoint on hockey (and business and …) analytics is heavily influenced by Hubbard’s work.

    Sitting on my shelf waiting for me to finish a thousand projects are a few other books on data science, Bayesian statistics, mathematical modelling etc, but one in particular that looks intriguing for breadth and brevity is:

    Why Can’t You Just Give Me The Number? An Executive’s Guide to Using Probabilistic Thinking to Manage Risk and to Make Better Decisions by Patrick Leach.

    The latter is not a recommendation (as I haven’t read it yet), just an idea.

  62. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Caramel Batman,

    if Chiarelli was over the cap and had another promising RHD that he needed to extend at the end of the season, sure EDM’d be on the wrong side of the Boychuk trade again

  63. frjohnk says:

    Lowetide: Not sure where you are headed here. Most fans, and certainly NHL owners, view success through the lens of winning. Chiarelli is in a different situation with Edmonton, all of his cannons were pointed in the same direction. I do not agree with the trade in terms of value, but understand it in terms of balance.

    In todays interview with Stauffer, Chia mentioned he was OK with the fact that he had overspent to get Larsson.

    (I’m on my phone so maybe somebody can dig up that of the interview)

  64. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Stauffer and Michaels mentioning Mike Richards as an option at 3C

  65. Side says:

    Caramel Batman:
    I find this unintelligible.

    Pretty much sums up my thoughts when I read your troll comments (which are about 95% of the comments you make).

  66. Pouzar says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    Stauffer and Michaels mentioning Mike Richards as an option at 3C

    15 goals seems like a stretch to me.

  67. Lowetide says:

    frjohnk: In todays interview with Stauffer, Chia mentioned he was OK with the fact that he had overspent to get Larsson.

    (I’m on my phone so maybe somebody can dig up that of the interview)

    And that makes sense. He had a list, Larsson was on it. He had Hall among his availables. I did not have Larsson on my list, but Chiarelli did and his teams would have played against Larsson. We know the trade was a loss based on our knowledge of the game. Can PC lose the battle and win the war? He was willing to make that bet.

  68. Lowetide says:

    ZIyat Paigin played 15:27, no points and 2 SOG plus 2 hits today. AK Bars Kazan lost though.

  69. Drew says:

    G Money: One of my holy books on measurement is delightfully titled:

    How to Measure Anything: Finding the Value of “Intangibles” in Business by Douglas Hubbard.

    My viewpoint on hockey (and business and …) analytics is heavily influenced by Hubbard’s work.

    Sitting on my shelf waiting for me to finish a thousand projects are a few other books on data science, Bayesian statistics, mathematical modelling etc, but one in particular that looks intriguing for breadth and brevity is:

    Why Can’t You Just Give Me The Number? An Executive’s Guide to Using Probabilistic Thinking to Manage Risk and to Make Better Decisions by Patrick Leach.

    The latter is not a recommendation (as I haven’t read it yet), just an idea.

    ordered today thx

  70. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Pouzar: 15 goals seems like a stretch to me.

    40 points seems about 2x as much as I’d peg. In the 2 years prior to this past season where Richards was able to go to camp, he essentially scored at even strength like a poor 3rd line centre. Wouldn’t be the worst option, I might prefer him to Hodgson like some here have mentioned.

  71. frjohnk says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    season not played,

    does anyone think Draisaitl is just an average skater? I think he’s pretty fast, won fastest skater in his rookie year with Hall out and had some pretty notable streaks down the wing all year

    Draisaitl won with 14.7 second lap.
    For reference Nurse skated 15.9 sec lap BACKWARDS
    Dylan Larken skated a 12.9 second lap to win fastest skater at all star game.

    Draisaitl is not quick out of the blocks but has good top end speed.

    Yak is the opposite. Very explosive first couple of steps but lacks the top end gear.

    As for overall team speed, we are closer to the Sharks than the Pens. Pens had 6 guys in the top 9 you could flat out fly when skating. We have 2 in McDavid and RNH.

  72. Lowetide says:

    Tyler ‏@akaRCN 5m5 minutes ago

    Based on Stauffer & Michaels’ interaction, safe to assume Mike Richards will or has been offered a PTO by the #Oilers.

  73. Pouzar says:

    LadiesloveSmid: 40 points seems about 2x as much as I’d peg. In the 2 years prior to this past season where Richards was able to go to camp, he essentially scored at even strength like a poor 3rd line centre. Wouldn’t be the worst option, I might prefer him to Hodgson like some here have mentioned.

    I wouldn’t hate it b/c I like the Drai on RW Top 6 option.

    I have not heard a single thing about Richards this offseason however so who knows what he is doing to get ready.

  74. Ducey says:

    Caramel Batman:
    I love how everyone is hoping for a late hour Johnny Boychuk type trade.You do know who was on the wrong end of that trade?

    It is amazing how quickly everyone has turned around on Chiarelli.If anyone else had done what he has done in Edmonton he would be treated like Eakins.

    Instead everyone here, the media, is completely on board with him, going out of their way to defend him.

    Go ahead and count the posts.A strong majority think Chiarelli is doing a good job.I find this unintelligible.

    Yup, NO ONE is a smart as you. Not hockey people, not GM’s, not coaches, and certainly not anyone here.

    I really think you are wasting your time trying to convince us of your genius. We will never get it.

    I suggest you stop trying

  75. Pouzar says:

    Lowetide:
    Tyler ‏@akaRCN 5m5 minutes ago

    Based on Stauffer & Michaels’ interaction, safe to assume Mike Richards will or has been offered a PTO by the #Oilers.

    Yes, they were pretty giddy talking about him.

  76. frjohnk says:

    Lowetide: And that makes sense. He had a list, Larsson was on it. He had Hall among his availables. I did not have Larsson on my list, but Chiarelli did and his teams would have played against Larsson. We know the trade was a loss based on our knowledge of the game. Can PC lose the battle and win the war? He was willing to make that bet.

    Drafting JP, a possible franchise winger that could one day replace Hall AND knowing Lucic would sign with the Oilers, probably allowed Chia to stomach the overpayment.

    I really like the addition of Lucic and I sure hope JP and Larsson turn out to be the players we need to eventually contend.

  77. Lowetide says:

    Pouzar: Yes, they were pretty giddy talking about him.

    Huh. I am not certain he is a better option than Lander. I may look at it.

  78. Lowetide says:

    frjohnk: Drafting JP, a possible franchise winger that could one day replace Hall AND knowing Lucic would sign with the Oilers, probably allowed Chia to stomach the overpayment.

    I really like the addition of Lucic and I sure hope JP and Larsson turn out to be the players we need to eventually contend.

    Me too. I have refrained (as much as possible) from gushing about Lucic, but man he is a fun player.

  79. Jethro Tull says:

    Pouzar: Yes, they were pretty giddy talking about him.

    Should have invited Stoll and Torres too. They’ll provide ‘veteran’ leadership…..veteran partying leadership.

  80. LadiesloveSmid says:

    frjohnk,

    JP is being placed by prominent prospect experts as a tier below Matthews/Laine and a tier above Marner/Strome/etc. If he hits his ceiling he could be the 2nd best forward on the team in a few years

  81. Pink Socks says:

    Lowetide:
    ZIyat Paigin played 15:27, no points and 2 SOG plus 2 hits today. AK Bars Kazan lost though.

    Stupid me, had to leave for work I thought the game was almost over but missed the whole 3rd. Paigin definitely had an assist on the first Kazan goal though. Unless the KHL records second assists differently than the NHL, he definitely was in on it.

  82. Lowetide says:

    Pink Socks: Stupid me, had to leave for work I thought the game was almost over but missed the whole 3rd.Paigin definitely had an assist on the first Kazan goal though.Unless the KHL records second assists differently than the NHL, he definitely was in on it.

    Oh I believe you, have watched enough KHL and SHL games to know their scoring of goals is erratic by NA standards.

  83. frjohnk says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    frjohnk,

    JP is being placed by prominent prospect experts as a tier below Matthews/Laine and a tier above Marner/Strome/etc. If he hits his ceiling he could be the 2nd best forward on the team in a few years

    That I won’t argue as I’m super pumped we got JP as he showed extremely well at the Jrs and under 18’s. Also showed quite well in the Finnish playoffs.

    Can’t wait until we unwrap this years shiny new to…..errr, I mean, see him in training camp. 🙂

  84. Woogie63 says:

    Klef not on the ice for the first skate on Rogers ice, maybe his foot is not healed? 😀

  85. Ducey says:

    Lowetide: Huh. I am not certain he is a better option than Lander. I may look at it.

    Richards had a 4.3% shooting percentage last year. That’s tough to do.

    Although Lander’s was 1.9% 🙂

    Maybe some regression to the meats for both of them.

    There have been lots of rumours on what has afflicted Richards. Maybe if he sorts himself out there is some tread left.

    I would be a little surprised if he would leave the bright lights of a big US City for little old Edmonton.

  86. B S says:

    Ducey,

    Rumours? I thought it was well established that he was nailed at the border for drugs (opioids). Pretty sure an addiction explains most of his problems the last couple of seasons. Of course it didn’t come to light until Lombardi needed to divest himself of that contract.

    Richards might want to get away from LA after all he’s gone through, Edmonton has a lot less of those problems while offering the amenities of a big city. Not sure the Oilers should take him based on his past problems, but a PTO is probably a safe call. He could surprise in camp, and at least offers some coverage during the world cup.

  87. LMHF#1 says:

    A Richards pick up would have been better last season. You acquire him, tell him to not worry about playing, just spend time getting healthy and ready in all possible ways, then he comes in to training camp.

    If they just give him a PTO and invite him to camp, I don’t know how you track his progress or get a good look at what he has left.

  88. G Money says:

    Pouzar: Lowetide:
    Tyler ‏@akaRCN 5m5 minutes ago

    Based on Stauffer & Michaels’ interaction, safe to assume Mike Richards will or has been offered a PTO by the #Oilers.

    Yes, they were pretty giddy talking about him.

    Kassian at age 25 trying to recover from addiction / lifestyle issues at age 25 is an OK bet.

    Richards trying to recover from lifestyle issues at age 31 with a career trajectory that looks like this:

    http://i.imgur.com/KKaL4AB.png

    doesn’t seem like the thing to be giddy over.

    But hey, the man has experience and grit and rings, how can you argue with that, amirite?

  89. Centre of attention says:

    G Money: Kassian at age 25 trying to recover from addiction / lifestyle issues at age 25 is an OK bet.

    Richards at age 31 trying to recover from lifestyle issues at age 31 with a career trajectory that looks like this:

    http://i.imgur.com/KKaL4AB.png

    doesn’t seem like the thing to be giddy over.

    But hey, the man has experience and grit and rings, how can you argue with that, amirite?

    Micheals thinks Richards can score 15 goals and 30+ points.

    I wanna know where he gets his dope, Lol.

  90. Pink Socks says:

    G Money,

    Not to mention Richards and Kassian will make great roomies.

  91. Drew says:

    Woogie63:
    Klef not on the ice for the first skate on Rogers ice, maybe his foot is not healed?

    u really want to get us all going ugh? 🙂

  92. B S says:

    G Money,
    If he looks hale and capable in training camp and preseason, he brings a veteran, and very experience center into the fold, who has played at the top of the game. If he takes it, do you sign him for <$1,000,000? $900,000? He can be buried in the minors if he struggles (on or off the ice), adds depth. I don't see this as a Ference is our #2 Dman signing, but rather a depth signing, that may keep JP off the team for a season, or at least a couple of months.

    Maroon Richards Draisaitl third line?

  93. Caramel Batman says:

    Ducey,

    I’ve already said what has to happen for me to admit I was wrong. Some combination of:

    Larsson is a legit top pairing D with offense
    Draisatl and/or Nurse turn into star players.
    The Oilers win a playoff series in the next two years.

    I think those are fair minimum expectations for trading Hall and borrowing future cap space on Lucic.

    What is your line in the sand? What has to happen for you to admit that Chiarelli made a huge blunder?

  94. B S says:

    Caramel Batman,

    third last in the league or worse would do it for me.

  95. Melman says:

    G Money: One of my holy books on measurement is delightfully titled:

    How to Measure Anything: Finding the Value of “Intangibles” in Business by Douglas Hubbard.

    My viewpoint on hockey (and business and …) analytics is heavily influenced by Hubbard’s work.

    Sitting on my shelf waiting for me to finish a thousand projects are a few other books on data science, Bayesian statistics, mathematical modelling etc, but one in particular that looks intriguing for breadth and brevity is:

    Why Can’t You Just Give Me The Number? An Executive’s Guide to Using Probabilistic Thinking to Manage Risk and to Make Better Decisions by Patrick Leach.

    The latter is not a recommendation (as I haven’t read it yet), just an idea.

    Ol’ Dougie isn’t L. Ron’s brother is he?

  96. Drew says:

    Melman: Ol’ Dougie isn’t L. Ron’s brother is he?

    oh no, i just bought the book. what if i end up believing in in aliens and crap. damn you GM!!!

  97. dustrock says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    Stauffer and Michaels mentioning Mike Richards as an option at 3C

    Maybe at 4C. Maybe.

  98. Jethro Tull says:

    I would suggest that Richards on a one year contract is not a bad idea.

    It could be read that Drai could play RW.

    Looch – McJeebus – Drai
    Poo – Nooj – Ebs
    Mama Kass – Testube -Yak
    Helmet Filler – Richards – Helmet Filler

    Pushme-Pullyou – Farm.

    Depth, boys and girls, depth. And he would be cheap cheap, like the budgie.

  99. LoDog says:

    The Oilers need C’s for training camp, their three best won’t be there.

    Hence Richards or someone else on PTO. If they look good, hey great, if not, they had enough C’s at camp.

  100. B S says:

    If Letestu is our third line center the season really is over.

  101. Ca$h-McMoney! says:

    Jethro Tull:
    I would suggest that Richards on a one year contract is not a bad idea.

    It could be read that Drai could play RW.

    Looch – McJeebus – Drai
    Poo – Nooj – Ebs
    Mama Kass – Testube -Yak
    Helmet Filler – Richards – Helmet Filler

    Pushme-Pullyou – Farm.

    Depth, boys and girls, depth.And he would be cheap cheap, like the budgie.

    Give me the keys. I’m calling you a cab.

  102. Jethro Tull says:

    Jethro Tull,

    Just to add, it wasn’t a million years ago that Poo-Nooj-Ebs was our top line and performing very nicely too…

  103. Jethro Tull says:

    Ca$h-McMoney!: Give me the keys.I’m calling you a cab.

    No, you are!

  104. rickithebear says:

    GF 1G better than GA t win games.
    Larsson is the best GA D in the game.

    Is hall the best GF forward in the game?

    PC is coddling the dumb asss masses trained by years of only being able to look at stats about Dmens offence.
    that quality 10th best player on team offensive skills.

  105. G Money says:

    B S,

    If he looks great in training camp and preseason and appears to have put his “LA lifestyle” behind him, hey, all bets are off. The man had talent once, no question.

    I don’t mind the PTO (the Oilers need warm pre season bodies at C thanks to the World Cup), but not one I’d be giddy about, 3C or 4C.

    Centre of attention: I wanna know where he gets his dope, Lol.

    Maybe from Richards or Stoll? No wonder he’s giddy!

    Drew: oh no, i just bought the book. what if i end up believing in in aliens and crap. damn you GM!!!

    *evil grin*

  106. B S says:

    G Money: (the Oilers need warm pre season bodies at C thanks to the World Cup),

    Why can’t the Oilers ever seem to get a solid Training camp in? it’s always a new coach, new systems, finally get a second season with a real coach and we’re stuck with an NHL circus instead.

  107. G Money says:

    B S,

    Because …

    well, we all know the second word.

  108. B S says:

    G Money,

    rhetorical question of course. Lordy, Krueger still did more in half a TC than any other coach so far.

  109. matt says:

    If the Oilers have come to the conclusion that a C/RW and a RD are good mid-summer pickups, based on information available months ago (WC rosters) where were they re Hudler and Wisniewski? Far superior combination than Legwand/Gryba.

  110. frjohnk says:

    rickithebear:
    GF 1G better than GA t win games.
    Larsson is the best GA D in the game.

    Is hall the best GF forward in the game?

    PC is coddling the dumb asss masses trained by years of only being able to look at stats about Dmens offence.
    that quality 10th best player on team offensive skills.

    Larsson is young and still getting better.
    And probably won’t be saddled with such extreme zone starts but still playing against the top competition this coming year compared to last year.

    Because systems don’t matter it’s a no brainer that Larssons on ice shot attempts against and high danger scoring chances against should decrease with the Oilers coming from the Devils.

    If the numbers against increase then we have to question the narrative he is the best defensive Dman.

  111. Chachi says:

    Caramel Batman: His track record is much better than Chiarelli’s.

    It’s a strange world that Chayka gets criticized while Chiarelli is praised, when Chiarelli has shed so much more actual value than Chayka.

    But he’s young and a nerd and hence is automatically criticized, while Chiarelli has street cred, and hence is automatically defended.

    I find the exact opposite of what you are saying is happening. Chayka has made two awful trades now and people are jumping through hoops trying to defend them because he is thought to be a “young nerd” and there must be some genius behind the pummeling he is taking from veteran GMs. I wish Chiarelli was more of a nerd, it may have prevented some of the bad deals he has made already. A bad trade is a bad trade though, and Chayka already has two of them to his name and he isn’t through his first off-season.

  112. B S says:

    matt,
    To be fair we don’t know if they were in on them and turned down., so the question is how much would the oilers need to offer to outbid the other teams.

  113. OilLeak says:

    Chachi: I find the exact opposite of what you are saying is happening. Chayka has made two awful trades now and people are jumping through hoops trying to defend them because he is thought to be a “young nerd” and there must be some genius behind the pummeling he is taking from veteran GMs. I wish Chiarelli was more of a nerd, it may have prevented some of the bad deals he has made already. A bad trade is a bad trade though, and Chayka already has two of them to his name and he isn’t through his first off-season.

    Which bad trades are you talking about? he’s taken on cap hit, but very little in actual salary.

  114. Chachi says:

    OilLeak: Which bad trades are you talking about?he’s taken on cap hit, but very little in actual salary.

    He took on two giant cap hits for almost nothing. Cap space shoud be a valuable commodity and Chayka is giving it away for nothing.

  115. G Money says:

    Chachi,

    Arizona now has $18M of cap hit which costs them $1M of actual salary. Chayka sent Vitale (a fourth line plug) out in the Datsyuk transaction, so he actually made the entire $1M of dead money back.

    Pronger’s $5M was already on the books, but Chayka turned $13M of cap hit (that ARI could never afford to use) into a Chychrun upgrade and Lawson Crouse.

    On the Datsyuk trade in particular, I think Chayka overpaid by a second round pick. Some argue the 1st round pick as well, but no way that’s true – the first round pick had to have been in play because those are too valuable to a cap strapped team like Detroit to not get a lower 1st back.

    Both Datsyuk and Pronger have one year remaining, meaning Arizona gets $13M of cap back next year. Only Bolland is signed long term.

    So there is an argument to be made that the rookie got schooled a little bit on the transactions because he didn’t drive a hard enough bargain. But to call the trades awful seems like an overstatement.

  116. classict says:

    Chachi,

    While I don’t think Crouse is as good a prospect as his draft position indicates, the deal for him was basically the same that Carolina made for Teravainen and most people consider that trade a steal. I don’t think Crouse is as good as Teravainen but that’s the comparable.

    Crouse still likely becomes an NHL player and possibly even a decent one. Those two picks likely don’t. Just because there’s mutual benefit doesn’t make it a bad trade…

  117. Chachi says:

    G Money:
    Chachi,

    Arizona now has $18M of cap hit which costs them $1M of actual salary.Chayka sent Vitale (a fourth line plug) out in the Datsyuk transaction, so he actually made the entire $1M of dead money back.

    Pronger’s $5M was already on the books, but Chayka turned $13M of cap hit (that ARI could never afford to use) into a Chychrun upgrade and Lawson Crouse.

    On the Datsyuk trade in particular, I think Chayka overpaid by a second round pick. Some argue the 1st roundpick as well, but no way that’s true – the first round pick had to have been in play because those are too valuable to a cap strapped team like Detroit to not get a lower 1st back.

    Both Datsyuk and Pronger have one year remaining, meaning Arizona gets $13M of cap back next year.Only Bolland is signed long term.

    So there is an argument to be made that the rookie got schooled a little bit on the transactions because he didn’t drive a hard enough bargain. But to call the trades awful seems like an overstatement.

    Datsyuk’s cap hit is probably the difference between Detroit making the playoffs or not this year. Chayka should have gotten a lot more from Detroit for saving their season. A lot more. It should have been painful for Detroit to get rid of that cap hit, but it was a walm in the park. He took on THREE years of Bolland and got a fading prospect. It should have been painful for Florida to get rid of that cap hit, but instead it was a walk in the park. Those were awful trades. I know Chayka is a folk hero to some here, but so far he has been awful.

  118. G Money says:

    Chachi,

    Meh. He took a liability (unusable cap space forced on him by budget) and turned it into assets.

    Getting anything that has value to you back for something that has no (or negative) value to you automatically starts your game in positive territory, even if you think you could have gotten more.

    That’s quite a marked contrast to some more veteran GMs whose game seems to be based on trading high value assets for low value assets.

  119. Chachi says:

    G Money:
    Chachi,

    Meh.He took a liability (unusable cap space forced on him by budget) and turned it into assets.

    Getting anything that has value to you back for something that has no (or negative) value to you automatically starts your game in positive territory, even if you think you could have gotten more.

    That’s quite a marked contrast to some more veteran GMs whose game seems to be based on trading high value assets for low value assets.

    What assets did he get? Lawson Crouse and a few spots difference in the first round in exchange for an absolute shit ton in cap space while helping his competitors out from really tough situations. Yeah, I don’t see that as a positive at all.

  120. stevezie says:

    Chachi,

    I think you are wildly off base here.

    He turned nothing into something. There is no negative to either trade. You can’t have been “taken to the woodshed” if there is no negative to your move.

    Now, I’m right there with youin thinking he probably should have been able to get more, especially from Detroit. I think it’s fair to say he failed to maximize an opportunity, so let’s not rush to call him genius. But even if you dock him for opportunity cost, he still comes out ahead.

    He gave up nothing and got something. Even if he could have got more, it’s still a win.

    EDIT i see you are docking him major points for helping an opponent. The NHL is not direct competition- it is more important to help yourself than hurt your opponent (this is why Boston and Vancouver are dumb dumb dumb for turning down better Oiler offers for Hamilton and Schneider). He also helped the opponent of 28 other NHL teams- it’s a neutral move in that sense.

  121. stevezie says:

    Caramel Batman,

    I’m not sure where you’re getting “everyone” from. I see at least as much negative as positive about him. I know you’re not on Twitter (good call) but you may enjoy taking a gander at @HBomb1982 ‘s account. Doing his damndest to get #firechiarelli to trend.

  122. Chachi says:

    stevezie:
    Chachi,

    I think you are wildly off base here.

    He turned nothing into something. There is no negative to either trade. You can’t have been “taken to the woodshed” if there is no negative to your move.

    Now, I’m right there with youin thinking he probably should have been able to get more, especially from Detroit. I think it’s fair to say he failed to maximize an opportunity, so let’s not rush to call him genius. But even if you dock him for opportunity cost, he still comes out ahead.

    He gave up nothing and got something. Even if he could have got more, it’s still a win.

    EDIT i see you are docking him major points for helping an opponent. The NHL is not direct competition- it is more important to help yourself than hurt your opponent(this is why Boston and Vancouver are dumb dumb dumb for turning down better Oiler offers for Hamilton and Schneider). He also helped the opponent of 28 other NHL teams- it’s a neutral move in that sense.

    You can think whatever you want. A bad trade is a bad trade and he made two really really bad trades. And the NHL is direct competition the last time I checked.

  123. stevezie says:

    Chachi,

    This response is one factual mistake (it is not direct one on one competition), and an odd assurance that even though you’re right, I’m free to be wrong. Thank you?

    I don’t think you’re right here. These were two okay trades that look fantastically great if your perspective is “they couldn’t use that space anyway” and mediocre if your perspective is “they saved Detroit’s baconfor cheap and Bolland may yet play again.”

    I’m somewhere in between. I don’t there’s a good case that they were terrible.

  124. Chachi says:

    stevezie:
    Chachi,

    This response is one factual mistake (it is not direct one on one competition), and an odd assurance that even though you’re right, I’m free to be wrong. Thank you?

    I don’t think you’re right here. These were two okay trades that look fantastically great if your perspective is “they couldn’t use that space anyway” and mediocre if your perspective is “they saved Detroit’s baconfor cheap and Bolland may yet play again.”

    I’m somewhere in between. I don’t there’s a good case that they were terrible.

    I believe teams in the NHL directly compete with each other. I didn’t say it is a one on one competition because it is obviously more complicated than that. I don’t believe helping out another team as Chayka did in both those trades is a good idea. You think that is ok. It is a fact that we can have two different opinions of the trades, yes? You have made up your mind that Chayka did well in those deals. I am totally ok with that. You won’t ever be able to convince me that the marginal return he got for those trades makes them anything but terrible trades.

  125. stevezie says:

    Chachi: You won’t ever be able to convince me that the marginal return he got for those trades makes them anything but terrible trades.

    Oh i bet i could.

  126. Chachi says:

    stevezie: Oh i bet i could.

    Well, I admire your confidence.

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