THE BLUE ROOM

The Puck IQ numbers are going to offer us real insight into the Edmonton Oilers (and the rest of the league). I posted Edmonton’s 2016-17 forwards against elites the other day and here are the defenders.

PUCK IQ NUMBERS, OILERS DEFENSE 2016-17

  • Brandon Davidson has fabulous numbers here, looking forward to see if he emerges as a substantial top 4D in Montreal. The elements have been there for two years, with injuries being the only real hold up.
  • Matt Benning had a splendid rookie season and is a righty to boot. His 31 percent against elites is pretty close to top 4D, that’s his probable role this fall.
  • Adam Larsson would be my nominee for best 5×5 defenseman last year. He played big minutes against elites, performed well and was +12 GF in eight hours work.
  • Oscar Klefbom brings more offense than his partner and the numbers are very close at 5×5. I would rank him as the Oilers most valuable defenseman in terms of projected future.
  • Kris Russell had the highest TOI (actually a tie) as a percentage of overall time, and played well despite playing wrong side. He is not a tremendously popular player with the math people, but I think the fairest ones give him due. That’s a good player card, even if we allow some luck was involved.
  • Eric Gryba is solid as a 7D, I’m not certain if the average player in that spot plays 27 percent of his time against elites but it lines up with Nurse (6D) and that makes intuitive sense.
  • Darnell Nurse had the same stats as Gryba and that had to be a massive improvement over his rookie season. We hope he takes another step forward this season while also being mindful that young defensemen do not have to develop in a straight line.
  • Andrej Sekera skated miles with Russell and appears to have faded just a hair without him. I’d mark him as in the range with his partner and the Swedish duo.
  • All of these graphs are going to be open to interpretation, but I honestly believe the Oilers had a good defensive group in 2016-17. Not perfect, needs some help, but the improvement since Chiarelli arrived is clear. Some of that is internal (Klefbom, Davidson, Nurse), but credit where due. Adam Larsson, Andrej Sekera and Kris Russell were key components a year ago, with Eric Gryba being a solid 7D for two years running.
  • Darcy McLeod will be on the Lowdown at 10:20 this morning if you have any questions.

STUART SKINNER SCOUTING REPORT

  • Red Line Report: Huge goaltender blocks out the sun, so hard to see any daylight it can be intimidating to shooters. Big goalie plays large by staying on his feet to see through crowds with traffc in front. Keeps gloves up at all times in stance, giving nothing to shoot at up high. Uses large frame to good advantage by wrapping himself around upper portions of goalposts; doesn’t have to come out far to take away angles and can play back further in crease. Calm demeanor prevents wasted movement – rarely over-commits on a play. Wide stance – uses long legs to step back and forth across crease often in a single motion. Great pokechecker disrupts cross-ice passes from outside of crease showcasing long reach. Source

I don’t really know anything about goalies but that’s a solid scouting report that gives us something to think about in regards to Skinner. Big man, can move efficiently. Sounds like a very good bet.

MCDAVID CONTRACT

Lots of lively debate about Connor McDavid’s contract (not sure if the announcement comes today or later in the week). I ran a few numbers yesterday, wanted to post them here for posterity.

  • Cap in 2007-08 was 50.3 million
  • Sidney Crosby signed a contract the summer that began 2008-09 was $8.7 million
  • That is 17.2 percent
  • His contract was for five years, buying one year of free agency.
  • Source

I  believe this to be correct, please let me know if the ciphering needs some tuning.

  • Cap in 2017-18 is 75.M
  • McDavid’s rumored hit is $13.25 on a contract he will sign at the exact same spot at 87.
  • That is 17.67 percent
  • His contract is rumored to be for eight years, buying four years of free agency.

If we’re going to debate these things, very important to get things level before we begin to apply nail to wood. Connor McDavid’s contract, within the context of his only comparable, appears to favor the Oilers by some margin. The extra four years of the deal hold sway.

KAILER YAMAMOTO

Got a DM yesterday telling me Bob talked about Yamamoto pushing for playing time this fall. As we have discussed since draft day, the age gap between this young man and Jesse Puljujarvi is spring-to-summer. If we go back to 2010 and run the NHLE’s for Edmonton’s first round picks:

  1. Connor McDavid 23-40-63
  2. Taylor Hall 17-29-46
  3. Nail Yakupov 18-22-40
  4. Leon Draisaitl 15-25-40
  5. Ryan Nugent-Hopkins 11-27-38
  6. Kailer Yamamoto 15-21-36
  7. Jesse Puljujarvi 9-11-20

Important to note that Puljujarvi is the only man on this list to play pro hockey in his draft year, but the Yamamoto number shines like a diamond. Among No. 1 overall picks and top-five selections, he hangs in with all but McDavid and Hall. Impressive. By the way, Rob Vollman’s NHLE numbers have been tweaked and are here. You will hear people talk about Yamamoto’s size and burning a year of his entry-level deal and I understand it. The play here is to send him back, just as it was with Sam Gagner and Leon Draisaitl and all the others. If we’re honest, it’s possible. David Pastrnak spent 44 games in the NHL year after draft, in case you’re wondering if Peter Chiarelli’s Bruins did it when he was there.

SHANE DOAN?

Oilers twitter and various other spots are alive with the sound or Jagr, of Iginla, and now apparently Shane Doan. I wonder. Doan didn’t penalty kill at all last season, that would be one area where the Oilers might be looking for help (Malone may win a job because of it). Among the three veteran RW’s, Doan probably has the best chance of being an Oiler. Suspect all three men are long shots, I remain a devotee of Jaromir Jagr’s artistry and would love to see him spend a year in our town.

LOWDOWN WITH LOWETIDE

A busy morning, TSN1260 beginning at 10 this morning. Scheduled to appear:

  • Darcy McLeod, Because Oilers. A nice chat about Puck IQ and Chiarelli’s offensive moves.
  • Kirk Luedeke, Red Line Report. Brian Ferlin plus Edmonton’s two USHL draft picks.
  • Marc Dumont, TSN690 Montreal. Habs summer, offer sheet.

10-1260 text, @Lowetide on twitter. Talk soon!

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153 Responses to "THE BLUE ROOM"

  1. LMHF#1 says:

    I understand why people are bringing up cap percentages, but don’t agree with using that as a way to calculate fair market value. Doing so makes a number of assumptions and also results in a large leap beyond current salaries that doesn’t make sense given how sports contracts work. McDavid is the best player in the league – but is he the best by several million dollars per year? No, no he isn’t.

  2. leadfarmer says:

    I’ve been posting this all spring but Yamamoto’s 5 x 5 offense/60 was top 10 in the league and primary 5×5 points per 60 was in the top 5 which he was surrounded by players older than him and Sam “Pornstar Name” Steel who is an impressive prospect himself. Otherwise there was guys like Adam Brooks who are 2 years older who plays with Steel.

    I do think the smart thing to do is send him back. He needs to get a little bigger and avoiding injuries in the faster and larger NHL is going to be important for his development

  3. TO10801 says:

    LMHF#1:
    I understand why people are bringing up cap percentages, but don’t agree with using that as a way to calculate fair market value. Doing so makes a number of assumptions and also results in a large leap beyond current salaries that doesn’t make sense given how sports contracts work. McDavid is the best player in the league – but is he the best by several million dollars per year? No, no he isn’t.

    He may not be the best player by a couple million no, but inflation is a thing and with Crosby locked up until he retires likely McDavid is the next player to set the new bar for the best players in the game. How would other superstars feel if McDavid accepted 8.7M over 8 years? That simply pushes down what other (lesser) stars can make going forward. Besides, I would rather see superstars getting paid rather than good players being overpaid (Russell, Eberle, Marleau).

  4. jtblack says:

    No matter how we slice it, Sekera logged a lot of time against Elites and will be missed.

    Connor’s contract is in line with his ONLY comparable …. One commentor asked if winning the scoring title every 2 – 3 years and scoring 100 points per season was enough to justify $13 Million? I feel bad for those that set the Moon as the standard and will only be satisfied when the impossible is (isn’t) achieved. Crosby has won 2 Scoring Titles in 12 years. Connor has 1. I will take the over on Connor as he is just getting started … With Full Health next year, I see him approaching 120 .. I think his PP numbers will increase dramatically; and word has it the League will actually call slashing, so Oil should see more time with the extra man …

    Skinner has the pedigree for sure … He needs to find consistency; but his playoff was excellent so hopefully he can build off of that … Yamamoto would be best served with another year in the WHL, but who knows .. Speed matters and can allow a kid to play; early reports are he can fly?

    Any updates on Development Camp with these guys?

    Of the 3 Grandpa’s (Iggy, Doan, Jagr) … Jagr is the only one I think can add value … Jagr on the PP1 or PP2 would be great … all players would hinder us 5×5, but also be cheap insurance for injuries …

  5. jtblack says:

    LMHF#1,

    “but is he the best by several million dollars per year? ” YES

  6. LMHF#1 says:

    TO10801,

    Inflation is taken into account when arriving at the contract numbers that are already out there.

    No one signed their deal in a static environment.

  7. leadfarmer says:

    TO10801: He may not be the best player by a couple million no, but inflation is a thing and with Crosby locked up until he retires likely McDavid is the next player to set the new bar for the best players in the game. How would other superstars feel if McDavid accepted 8.7M over 8 years? That simply pushes down what other (lesser) stars can make going forward. Besides, I would rather see superstars getting paid rather than good players being overpaid (Russell, Eberle, Marleau).

    There is a big difference being paid 3 mil more than the next player and the 8.7 mil you listed which would never happen. Superstars getting paid high leads to secondary players getting paid high leading to lockouts.

  8. Ducey says:

    LMHF#1:
    I understand why people are bringing up cap percentages, but don’t agree with using that as a way to calculate fair market value. Doing so makes a number of assumptions and also results in a large leap beyond current salaries that doesn’t make sense given how sports contracts work. McDavid is the best player in the league – but is he the best by several million dollars per year? No, no he isn’t.

    They could pay him less on a 5 yr deal. If you want 8 then you need to pay more. $13.2 M won’t be much, if any, higher than other players in 6-8 yrs.

    The 8 years is key. Its likely going to hurt in years 1-3 but as the cap goes up, it will become more and more manageable. And of course you keep McDavid until he is 29.

  9. jtblack says:

    Important to note that Kane and Toews are in the 3rd year of earning $13.8 Million per season … Kopitar earned $14 Million last year and will earn $13 Mil this year …

    So before we start believing that $13 Million per season is outrageous or high, let’s understand that players of lesser capability than McD are already earning that much dough

  10. Side says:

    LMHF#1:
    TO10801,

    Inflation is taken into account when arriving at the contract numbers that are already out there.

    No one signed their deal in a static environment.

    Do you think other players would be happy if the best player in the league signed for $10 or $11 million a year?

  11. Side says:

    jtblack:
    Important to note that Kane and Toews are in the 3rd year of earning $13.8 Million per season … Kopitar earned $14 Million last year and will earn $13 Mil this year …

    So before we start believing that $13 Million per season is outrageous or high, let’s understand that players of lesser capability than McD are already earning that much dough

    Ha, like Kane and Toews will ever win a cup when they’re eating that much of the cap on the team! How will the GM be able to get any good players with those 2 eating so much cap?

    …oh wait…

  12. SoxandOil says:

    LMHF#1,

    I think the best way to look at it is, mcdavid is the best player in the league who is due for a new contract. If every player had to renegotiate this offseason the elites would all be north of 11 or 12 million per, look at aged joe Thornton or Carey price as comparables. Cap goes up salaries go up and comparing mcdavids contract to those signed 5 or 6 years ago isn’t fair or accurate. Another blessing would be signing mcdavid this offseason vs next where his hit could be 14+.

  13. leadfarmer says:

    jtblack:
    Important to note that Kane and Toews are in the 3rd year of earning $13.8 Million per season … Kopitar earned $14 Million last year and will earn $13 Mil this year …

    So before we start believing that $13 Million per season is outrageous or high, let’s understand that players of lesser capability than McD are already earning that much dough

    I’m sure you know how averages work and UFA vs RFA

  14. jtblack says:

    SoxandOil,

    +1 ….

  15. Cassandra says:

    Crosby’s contract was 17% of the cap when it was signed but more like 15% of the cap when it started because it was in an era of cap escalation.

    McDavid’s contract, on the other hand, is being signed in an era when revenues are flat and the cap only increases because of the player’s union voting for the escalation clause. Even if the cap is 78 Million when the contract signs it will still be about 17% of the cap.

    The Oilers aren’t going to be able to inflate their way out of this.

    Five years at a lower annual value is the play I think. If you win during that period you should be able to keep him and sign him to another long term contract then, that won’t be that much more than this one.

    If you don’t win during the next five years it is going to be bad news whether the contract is five years or eight years, and it is going to be harder to win with the eight year contract.

    The other benefit is the five year contract expires when his 25, sign another 8 years and it ends at 33. Perfect. But the Oilers are going to have a serious problem at the end of the 8 year contract. He’ll be 28 and the demands won’t be any lower but the performance will be. The second 8 year contract is going to be a killer.

  16. franksterra says:

    Drai’s contract worries me more (in so far as I’m worried at all, which is not much)

    Connor seems equipped to live up to the rumoured money and term

    By any objective measure, with Drai that’s just less certain.

    Can Drai drive a Cup calibre scoring line year in and year out, understanding that he’ll rarely have ‘peak talent’ on his wings? He’ll have talented wingers, but mostly youth on entry level contracts, or past-their-prime vets.

  17. jtblack says:

    leadfarmer,

    For sure I do … but why do some people think $13 is an outrageous number for the best player in the World … whether he’s half RFA years, half UFA years, it doesn’t matter. Connor should be the highest paid player in the game and $13 Million puts him inline with the highest salaries in the League.

  18. Cassandra says:

    Taken as a whole McDavid and Draisatl’s contracts have zero inflationary effect on the contracts of other players.

    The players get 50% of revenue regardless of what contracts they sign. If McDavid and Draisatl get more it just means that everyone else gets less. The size of the pie is the size of the pie.

  19. TO10801 says:

    Cassandra:
    Crosby’s contract was 17% of the cap when it was signed but more like 15% of the cap when it started because it was in an era of cap escalation.

    McDavid’s contract, on the other hand, is being signed in an era when revenues are flat and the cap only increases because of the player’s union voting for the escalation clause.Even if the cap is 78 Million when the contract signs it will still be about 17% of the cap.

    The Oilers aren’t going to be able to inflate their way out of this.

    Five years at a lower annual value is the play I think.If you win during that period you should be able to keep him and sign him to another long term contract then, that won’t be that much more than this one.

    If you don’t win during the next five years it is going to be bad news whether the contract is five years or eight years, and it is going to be harder to win with the eight year contract.

    The other benefit is the five year contract expires when his 25, sign another 8 years and it ends at 33.Perfect.But the Oilers are going to have a serious problem at the end of the 8 year contract.He’ll be 28 and the demands won’t be any lower but the performance will be.The second 8 year contract is going to be a killer.

    I think by extending the contract to 8 years you are gaining some cost certainty for the additional 3 years. I guess the question is would it be better to sign him to a 5×11.5M deal or 8x 13.5M? Sure the extra 2M would be nice, but what happens in 5 years when you have to sign an 8 year deal at 16M per season? Our chances at winning cups will likely be highest when McDavid is between 21-28 anyways, since that is generally when players hit their peak production. The McDavid contract really isn’t an issue either way, as he is an almost guaranteed playoff berth, Drai on the other hand is more debateable.

  20. Side says:

    Cassandra:

    The other benefit is the five year contract expires when his 25, sign another 8 years and it ends at 33.Perfect.But the Oilers are going to have a serious problem at the end of the 8 year contract.He’ll be 28 and the demands won’t be any lower but the performance will be.The second 8 year contract is going to be a killer.

    You would prefer McDavid sign his 2nd contract when he’s in his prime where his demands could potentially be higher than if he were 28?

    Why wouldn’t his demands be lower when he’s 28, exactly?

  21. JJS says:

    Salaries as a percentage of the cap is arguably one of the best tools to start the negotiations. It is the only metric which is equal from team to team.

    As noted by others however, the cap isn’t static so this other math (i.e. accurate projections) is required.

    I would be surprised if every team in the league didn’t use %cap/position when putting together their rolling 5 year player plan.

  22. Ducey says:

    Cassandra:

    The other benefit is the five year contract expires when his 25, sign another 8 years and it ends at 33.Perfect.But the Oilers are going to have a serious problem at the end of the 8 year contract.He’ll be 28 and the demands won’t be any lower but the performance will be.The second 8 year contract is going to be a killer.

    First off. Your comments have been good the last few days. Less sanctimony is appreciated.

    I’d be happy with a second 8 yr contract. It would take him to age 37-38. It may come with a little discount for the fact he will be older at the end.

    In any event, having a first ballot hall of famer in Oilers silks for his whole career? Wonderful. The number of new fans who will identify with the Oilers, the fact that the Oilers will spend little, if any, time in the wilderness? Fabulous.

    When is the presser today?

  23. leadfarmer says:

    What time is the Chia press conference?

  24. Cassandra says:

    SoxandOil:
    LMHF#1,

    I think the best way to look at it is, mcdavid is the best player in the league who is due for a new contract. If every player had to renegotiate this offseason the elites would all be north of 11 or 12 million per, look at aged joe Thornton or Carey price as comparables. Cap goes up salaries go up and comparing mcdavids contract to those signed 5 or 6 years ago isn’t fair or accurate. Another blessing would be signing mcdavid this offseason vs next where his hit could be 14+.

    This isn’t at all how the salary cap works. There is no correlation between McDavid’s salary and how high the salary cap is. Given the current league revenue situation the size of the salary cap is fairly predictable. We know with a high degree of reasonable certainty that the cup is only going to go up through the player’s voting to escalate it.

    McDavid’s contract does not cause inflation, nor can it be justified by inflation beyond the small 3-4% the player’s escalation vote does.

  25. godot10 says:

    The Leafs sent Marner down for one more year to gain another year of physical maturity. The Oilers should follow the same path with Yamamoto regardless of what he does in training camp.

    The birth certificate says 18. The eyes say 15.

  26. leadfarmer says:

    I would have no problems paying McDavid until he is 37. None

  27. franksterra says:

    godot10,

    agreed. weight and height aside, getting used to your body at that young age is something in itself

  28. LMHF#1 says:

    SoxandOil,

    All of the long-term, elite-level contracts are already signed and calculated with forward thinking involved.

    I’m not trying to convince anyone here – just see a rather narrow narrative developing and it’s missing some context.

  29. Jaxon says:

    Here’s an interesting post re: Sidney Crosby aware he was going to take less money to win a cup leading up to signing his 2nd contract from July 1st, 2007. 6 days before his singing:

    http://blackandgoldworld.blogspot.ca/2007/07/theres-new-kid-in-town.html

    Money quote:

    “The unique thing about us is that we have young guys making their mark,” Crosby said. “The Cup is what you play for. That is what I am working for. I want to give Pittsburgh the best chance to bring back the Cup.”

    I hope McDavid feels the same way.

  30. godot10 says:

    From those defensive stats, the Oilers were playing “rope-a-dope” when Russell was on the ice against the elites…i.e. basically playing to survive the minutes. Totally unlike the Larsson minutes, when the Oilers were on the attack.

    Russell is the other teams best defensive weapon against McDavid, since McDavid isn’t attacking as much when Russell is on the ice.

  31. LMHF#1 says:

    Side,

    If I’m about to make 80-some million dollars and win multiple championships, I’ll sleep just fine at night thanks.

    I hope there are smart people with McDavid’s ear right now. Taking the max deal is not his path to max wealth, achievement or legacy.

  32. Aitch says:

    Side: Do you think other players would be happy if the best player in the league signed for $10 or $11 million a year?

    They should be. In a cap world, there is only so much money to go around. It’s not like everyone is going to get paid more simply because Connor makes more.

    In fact, I’m one who believes the best players DON’T need the huge contracts. Players like Connor (and Crosby and Toews, etc, etc) are able to sign HUGE endorsement deals that the rank-and-file players don’t have the ability to sign. And if you’re a champion, then more sponsors are going to line-up a their doorstep with even more money. So, the smart thing to do would be take a smaller salary, allowing for the team to add more “better-than-average” type players and actually try to win A LOT! Cause when you win a lot as a superstar, you’re going to make BIG money!

  33. Bag of Pucks says:

    jtblack:
    Important to note that Kane and Toews are in the 3rd year of earning $13.8 Million per season … Kopitar earned $14 Million last year and will earn $13 Mil this year …

    So before we start believing that $13 Million per season is outrageous or high, let’s understand that players of lesser capability than McD are already earning that much dough

    The issue I have with this is the Hawks’ duo and Kopitar signed those contracts AFTER winning Cups.

    AND the signing of those contracts (along with others) have largely taken their clubs out of Cup contention since.

    Connor’s had 1 real good season of individual success, but before he’s given the biggest contract in the league, I think it behooves the organization to tie some of his compensation to team success.

    Unlike the players you’ve cited, this contract has the potential to cripple the Oilers cap flexibility before they’ve even entered the contention window.

    Funny how we’ve seen firsthand the folly of handing out these types of contracts too early with the Austins, yet we’re oh so willing to jump right back in. Granted, Connor’s an exceedingly special player and I don’t see him losing motivation with the signing of this deal, but wealth brings distractions….

    Really hoping when the announcement arrives, we see a deal more in the $11-12M range with team incentives capable of pushing it to the 13-13.5 range.

    $13.5M. Too much. Too soon.

  34. Cassandra says:

    To all the responses above.

    I guess my point is this. Since all players have a risk of depreciation, to justify a long term contract there has to be considerable inflation of salaries to offset the risk.

    In my opinion, the depreciation risk of long term contracts is not fully recognized, and teams would be better off going with shorter contracts when they have the opportunity, especially when there isn’t very much salary inflation.

    In a world in which longer term also means more money, the team loses on both ends. They pay more money (obviously bad) but they also take on the depreciation risk. Longer terms should lower the annual value. If it doesn’t then shorter term and less money is a big win for the teams.

    If there was significant salary inflation longer term makes more sense.

    Now, McDavid is McDavid, so I am not going to complain about a 13.5 million contract. I’d rather have it than nothing. But the other option is not nothing.

  35. TO10801 says:

    godot10:
    From those defensive stats, the Oilers were playing “rope-a-dope” when Russell was on the ice against the elites…i.e. basically playing to survive the minutes.Totally unlike the Larsson minutes, when the Oilers were on the attack.

    Russell is the other teams best defensive weapon against McDavid, since McDavid isn’t attacking as much when Russell is on the ice.

    Totally agree, TMac has to make a point of not playing Russell and McDavid together, or at the very least severely limiting it. If you can play Klef-Lars 25 min/game they should be able to cover the majority of McDavid’s minutes.

  36. Jaxon says:

    Cassandra: This isn’t at all how the salary cap works.There is no correlation between McDavid’s salary and how high the salary cap is.Given the current league revenue situation the size of the salary cap is fairly predictable.We know with a high degree of reasonable certainty that the cup is only going to go up through the player’s voting to escalate it.

    McDavid’s contract does not cause inflation, nor can it be justified by inflation beyond the small 3-4% the player’s escalation vote does.

    Yup. The players’ share of the pie doesn’t change. Their popularity may increase revenues, thereby increasing the cap, but McDavid getting a bigger piece of the pie and escalating the payments to the upper elite players just decreases the amount of money available to bottom line and bottom pairing skaters and backup goalies. The NHLPA probably doesn’t encourage going for the highest salaries possible as it just decreases the salaries to other members. Only specific agents with elite clients want those high salaries.

  37. TO10801 says:

    Cassandra:
    To all the responses above.

    I guess my point is this.Since all players have a risk of depreciation, to justify a long term contract there has to be considerable inflation of salaries to offset the risk.

    In my opinion, the depreciation risk of long term contracts is not fully recognized, and teams would be better off going with shorter contracts when they have the opportunity, especially when there isn’t very much salary inflation.

    In a world in which longer term also means more money, the team loses on both ends.They pay more money (obviously bad) but they also take on the depreciation risk.Longer terms should lower the annual value.If it doesn’t then shorter term and less money is a big win for the teams.

    If there was significant salary inflation longer term makes more sense.

    Now, McDavid is McDavid, so I am not going to complain about a 13.5 million contract.I’d rather have it than nothing.But the other option is not nothing.

    Makes sense what your saying, but the one thing that makes me think it might be wise to do 2-8yr deals is that the second one should account for the fact he will be 38 by the end of it. Am I naïve to think that the second contract might be 8×13.5-14M considering he will be working towards the end of his career?

  38. Side says:

    LMHF#1:
    Side,

    If I’m about to make 80-some million dollars and win multiple championships, I’ll sleep just fine at night thanks.

    I hope there are smart people with McDavid’s ear right now. Taking the max deal is not his path to max wealth, achievement or legacy.

    $13 million is not the max deal.

    I can already see what the next narrative will be. Connor will put up +100 points again next year, the Oilers won’t get the cup and the fans will blame Connor for his contract hamstringing the team instead of the bad contracts like Lucic and Russell.

    This is going to be fun.

  39. Professor Q says:

    Side: Ha, like Kane and Toews will ever win a cup when they’re eating that much of the cap on the team! How will the GM be able to get any good players with those 2 eating so much cap?

    …oh wait…

    They actually haven’t won the Cup, actually. Nor gotten out of the First Round.

    They won while in 5 year $6.3 million deals, or ~11% of the Cap. Now they’re ~15% of the Cap and had to trade their new best player while accepting their old players on extremely value contracts (former not so good, latter very lucky).

  40. jm363561 says:

    I do think the smart thing to do is send him back. He needs to get a little bigger and avoiding injuries in the faster and larger NHL is going to be important for his development.

    ======
    I completely agree with this. I have always considered RNH’s physical condition was affected by the hammering he took in his first year, and see the same risks with Yamo. However, there certainly seems to be some sort presence about the guy. I would really love to see him succeed.

    I would also agree with LT’s comment about the “lively debate” about the Connor Contract. I read pretty much every post, really enjoyed them all, and learned a lot – there really is no place like LoweTide for this kind of thing.

    EDIT: Started typing this when there were only two comments. Now there are 41!

  41. Side says:

    Aitch: They should be. In a cap world, there is only so much money to go around. It’s not like everyone is going to get paid more simply because Connor makes more.

    In fact, I’m one who believes the best players DON’T need the huge contracts. Players like Connor (and Crosby and Toews, etc, etc) are able to sign HUGE endorsement deals that the rank-and-file players don’t have the ability to sign. And if you’re a champion, then more sponsors are going to line-up a their doorstep with even more money. So, the smart thing to do would be take a smaller salary, allowing for the team to add more “better-than-average” type players and actually try to win A LOT! Cause when you win a lot as a superstar, you’re going to make BIG money!

    “In Vancouver, the Sedins’ humble approach to being compensated set the bar that much lower in Vancouver. Privately however, many of their teammates disliked the practice. And inside the walls of the NHL Players’ Association, taking less salary for any reason is frowned upon, much less when one bad deal (in their eyes) begets the next.”

    I don’t think they would be happy.

  42. Chachi says:

    Cassandra:
    To all the responses above.

    I guess my point is this.Since all players have a risk of depreciation, to justify a long term contract there has to be considerable inflation of salaries to offset the risk.

    In my opinion, the depreciation risk of long term contracts is not fully recognized, and teams would be better off going with shorter contracts when they have the opportunity, especially when there isn’t very much salary inflation.

    In a world in which longer term also means more money, the team loses on both ends.They pay more money (obviously bad) but they also take on the depreciation risk.Longer terms should lower the annual value.If it doesn’t then shorter term and less money is a big win for the teams.

    If there was significant salary inflation longer term makes more sense.

    Now, McDavid is McDavid, so I am not going to complain about a 13.5 million contract.I’d rather have it than nothing.But the other option is not nothing.

    This is probably your best post ever, and not just because I agree with you. Then again, I just crawled out from under a rock and am always wrong so…

  43. godot10 says:

    LMHF#1:
    Side,

    If I’m about to make 80-some million dollars and win multiple championships, I’ll sleep just fine at night thanks.

    I hope there are smart people with McDavid’s ear right now. Taking the max deal is not his path to max wealth, achievement or legacy.

    It is probable that it is the Oilers insisting on 8 years, not the McDavid camp. McDavid isn’t taking a max deal. He is taking just over 10% less than the max. There is your hometown discount.

    The McDavid camp was probably suggesting 5 years, like Crosby, Stamkos, and every one else.

    Draisaitl seems willing to take 2/3rds of what Connor is making.

    Connor x 2/3rds ($13.25) = Draisaitl ($9)
    Draisaitl x 2/3rds ($9) = :Lucic ($6)

    Seems about right too me.

  44. jtblack says:

    Jaxon,

    “Sidney Crosby aware he was going to take less money to win a cup leading up to signing his 2nd contract from July 1st, 2007. 6 days before his singing:” ….

    TOP SALARIES IN 2009:

    Dany Heatley (Ottawa Senators) $10 million
    Sidney Crosby (Pittsburgh Penguins) $9 million
    Alexander Ovechkin (Washington Capitals) $9 million
    Mats Sundin (Vancouver Canucks) $8.6 million
    Miikka Kiprusoff (Calgary Flames) $8.5 million

    What an Admirable guy Sid was … he was only the 2nd highest paid player in the League … I don’t see that as a Discount ..

  45. Richard S.S. says:

    Too many armchair GMs yelling down a gopher hole. Peter Chiarelli is one of the Best GMs in the NHL. Those that disagree are still fascinated by that gopher hole. On the open market, with no Cap, McDavid would easily be worth $50.0 Million per season. Anything less is a huge bargain, complaining about it is just breaking wind.

  46. leadfarmer says:

    Richard S.S.:
    Too many armchair GM yelling down a gopher hole.Peter Chiarelli is one of the Best GMs in the NHL.Those that disagree are still fascinated by that gopher hole.On the open market, with no Cap, McDavid would easily be worth $50.0 per season.Anything less is a huge bargain, complaining about it is just breaking wind.

    Yeah I’d pay him 50 dollars a season. Id even put up my own money

  47. jtblack says:

    I am not sure how much winning the Oilers will do with having the Highest paid player in the League and having another paid in the Top 10 of the League … But I do know how much winning we did when we didn’t have these players .. 🙂

  48. Jaxon says:

    Ducey:
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/analyzing-edmonton-oilers-will-pay-rfa-leon-draisaitl/

    Willis thinks Leon should get Kopitar $. $6.8 x 7

    Except, if you use Kopitar as a comparison, he signed his 2nd contract for the 2009-2010 season at $6.8M when the cap was $56.8M, which works out to 11.97% on a 6 year deal. If you give Draisaitl a 6 year deal at 11.97% of a $75M cap, it works out to a cap hit of $8.978M on a 6 year deal.

  49. leadfarmer says:

    Side: “In Vancouver, the Sedins’ humble approach to being compensated set the bar that much lower in Vancouver. Privately however, many of their teammates disliked the practice. And inside the walls of the NHL Players’ Association, taking less salary for any reason is frowned upon, much less when one bad deal (in their eyes) begets the next.”

    I don’t think they would be happy.

    Sedins dont count. They’re biggest goal is to play together. They gave up money to make sure that happens

  50. godot10 says:

    Aitch: They should be. In a cap world, there is only so much money to go around. It’s not like everyone is going to get paid more simply because Connor makes more.

    In fact, I’m one who believes the best players DON’T need the huge contracts. Players like Connor (and Crosby and Toews, etc, etc) are able to sign HUGE endorsement deals that the rank-and-file players don’t have the ability to sign. And if you’re a champion, then more sponsors are going to line-up a their doorstep with even more money. So, the smart thing to do would be take a smaller salary, allowing for the team to add more “better-than-average” type players and actually try to win A LOT! Cause when you win a lot as a superstar, you’re going to make BIG money!

    Hypothesis:

    Based on the Pareto Principle

    20% of the players (5 out of 23) should get 80% of the cap ($60 million)

    So arguably elite players are being significantly underpaid relative to their contribution.

    Paying the REAL drivers is NOT going to prevent one from competing. Not paying them probably will.

  51. jtblack says:

    Chachi,

    “Then again, I just crawled out from under a rock ” – Bahahaaha … Yes, that was a little much .. Sorry about that … A different way to say it is this ..

    I don’t think anyone should represent themselves in the following situations:

    1) Purchasing a $100 Million Dollar business
    2) On trial for Murder
    3) Negotiating the Largest Contract in NHL history

  52. godot10 says:

    franksterra:
    Drai’s contract worries me more (in so far as I’m worried at all, which is not much)

    Connor seems equipped to live up to the rumoured money and term

    By any objective measure, with Drai that’s just less certain.

    Can Drai drive a Cup calibre scoring line year in and year out, understanding that he’ll rarely have ‘peak talent’ on his wings? He’ll have talented wingers, but mostly youth on entry level contracts, or past-their-prime vets.

    Yet Draisaitl showed up against Anaheim, and McDavid didn’t, when Draisaitl centred his own line.

  53. till_horcoff_is_coach says:

    I would prefer a 5 year bridge at more affordable contracts for McD and Drai, but once you take in all the uncertainty for the McDavid camp at signing for so long I think the rumoured ask isn’t beyond reason. It is sad that it hamstrings the team for the first 3+ years – with them doing a chicago selloff before winning anything; but I don’t begrudge the player for making that choice.

    I think this market shift for the top tier of players will heavily favour teams like CBJ and NSH, who have very good players, but a more distributed offence.

  54. admiralmark says:

    leadfarmer: Yeah I’d pay him 50 dollars a season.Id even put up my own money

    I’ll cover the bonus of $20 if he can hit the 50 goal mark.

  55. Side says:

    leadfarmer: Sedins dont count.They’re biggest goal is to play together.They gave up money to make sure that happens

    They did give up money to make sure that happened, and like I said, the players and the Players’ Association didn’t like them taking the discount they did. I don’t care why the Sedins took the discount they did, I’m more concerned about people thinking that NHL players and the association would TOTALLY be happy with Connor McDavid, arguably the best player on the planet, taking $9.7 – 10 million like some people are suggesting.

  56. Chachi says:

    jtblack:
    Chachi,

    “Then again, I just crawled out from under a rock ” – Bahahaaha … Yes, that was a little much .. Sorry about that …A different way to say it is this ..

    I don’t think anyone should represent themselves in the following situations:

    1) Purchasing a $100 Million Dollar business
    2) On trial for Murder
    3) Negotiating the Largest Contract in NHL history

    1) Are you talking about negotiating the deal or papering it? Who better than the person spending the money to negotiate it? You hire lawyers to do the due dilligence and paper the deal once you have negotiated it.

    2) Agreed wholeheartedly, self represented defendants are a scourge on the legal system and it almost never works out for them

    3) The SPC for non-entry level/non-over 35 contracts is a fill-in-the-blanks exercise that anyone with a grade 6 education could complete on their own. I sure as hell wouldn’t pay someone 3-6% of that contract to “negotiate” it for me. You could also look at it as 3-6% less you could take on your deal to lower your cap hit and help your team be more competitive.

  57. godot10 says:

    Jaxon: Except, if you use Kopitar as a comparison, he signed his 2nd contract for the 2009-2010 season at $6.8M when the cap was $56.8M, which works out to 11.97% on a 6 year deal. If you give Draisaitl a 6 year deal at 11.97% of a $75M cap, it works out to a cap hit of $8.978M on a 6 year deal.

    Exactly. Willis is pushing a false narrative, perhaps unintentionally.

    Willis, in that article, shows how “statistics” can lie.

  58. theres oil in virginia says:

    Chachi: I just crawled out from under a rock

    Don’t try to fool us, we know you’re still under there!

  59. Chachi says:

    theres oil in virginia: Don’t try to fool us, we know you’re still under there!

    HA!

  60. godot10 says:

    till_horcoff_is_coach:
    I would prefer a 5 year bridge at more affordable contracts for McD and Drai, but once you take in all the uncertainty for the McDavid camp at signing for so long I think the rumoured ask isn’t beyond reason.It is sad that it hamstrings the team for the first 3+ years – with them doing a chicago selloff before winning anything; but I don’t begrudge the player for making that choice.

    I think this market shift for the top tier of players will heavily favour teams like CBJ and NSH, who have very good players, but a more distributed offence.

    They will just waste the savings on players like Lucic and Russell, and then in five years one will have to paying them more than $22.25 million…one might have to pay them $30 million, and one has the same problem again.

    Pay your drivers (McDavid and Draisaitl)…all it does is force you not to overpay replaceable players.

  61. shawnmullin says:

    LMHF: is he the best by several million? In terms of value I would say yes. If all players were suddenly UFAs I bet McDavid would get the biggest money by several million based on the age/talent value combo. He’s easily the most valuable asset in the NHL.

  62. N64 says:

    Ducey:
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/analyzing-edmonton-oilers-will-pay-rfa-leon-draisaitl/

    Willis thinks Leon should get Kopitar $. $6.8 x 7

    jtblack,

    He uses unadjusted AAV to discount Drai’s shorter track record. The comparable would be Drai a year from now to Kopitar’s cap %. A 1 yr Challenge would set that up nicely 😉

    Expecting 7s or 8s depending on length.

  63. JustWatt says:

    godot10:
    From those defensive stats, the Oilers were playing “rope-a-dope” when Russell was on the ice against the elites…i.e. basically playing to survive the minutes.Totally unlike the Larsson minutes, when the Oilers were on the attack.

    Russell is the other teams best defensive weapon against McDavid, since McDavid isn’t attacking as much when Russell is on the ice.

    This feels like “glass half empty” thinking about Russel. It’s absolutely true that McDavid scored at a substantially slower rate with Russel on the ice than any other teammate.

    It’s also true though that the Oilers outscored the opposition by its widest margin (if I am remembering the numbers correctly) with them both on the ice.

    It’s lower event hockey and more than half of it happened in the defensive zone but the goals were so strongly tilted in favor of Edmonton that I have a hard time getting mad about it. Glass half full

  64. Jaxon says:

    jtblack:
    Jaxon,

    “Sidney Crosby aware he was going to take less money to win a cup leading up to signing his 2nd contract from July 1st, 2007. 6 days before his singing:” ….

    TOP SALARIES IN 2009:

    Dany Heatley (Ottawa Senators) $10 million
    Sidney Crosby (Pittsburgh Penguins) $9 million
    Alexander Ovechkin (Washington Capitals) $9 million
    Mats Sundin (Vancouver Canucks) $8.6 million
    Miikka Kiprusoff (Calgary Flames) $8.5 million

    What an Admirable guy Sid was … he was only the 2nd highest paid player in the League … I don’t see that as a Discount ..

    I get what you’re saying but I’m guessing PIT would have backed up a Brinks truck if he asked for it.

    At $13.5M (some rumours re: McDavid’s new contract, some say $13.25M) would put McDavid at 28.57% higher than the highest cap hits in the NHL (Kane and Toews make $10.5M).

    10M would make McDavid the 2nd highestcap hit in the league behind those two.

    Re: Crosby’s 8.7M cap hit contract. I’m thinking he could have asked for a lot more at the time, just as the Oilers are facing with McDavid. Crosby had just come off a season where he scored 120 pts to win the Art Ross, Hart and Ted Lindsay trophies, just like McDavid. Although Crosby has still never been on the cover of EA Sports NHL video game (WTF?!, Really?)

  65. leadfarmer says:

    admiralmark: I’ll cover the bonus of $20 if he can hit the 50 goal mark.

    Deal. I think we’d make great GMs.

  66. vinotintazo says:

    Jaxon: never been on the cover of EA Sports NHL video game (WTF?!, Really?)

    did not know that.

  67. jtblack says:

    Jaxon,

    Crosby AND Malkin had the highest Cap Hit in the League when they signed … so I guess it’s more semantics than anything .. Could they have got more? I guess so .. but I wouldn’t suggest they took “discounts”. They were the highest paid players in the League. As they should have been.

  68. jtblack says:

    Raise your hand if you have gone to your Boss / Employer in the last 2 years and said “Please reduce my pay or put a wage freeze on my pay so that the company can attract better talent going forward.” #TeamPlayer

    Bueller …. Bueller ….

  69. N64 says:

    Bag of Pucks: we see a deal more in the $11-12M range with team incentives capable of pushing it to the 13-13.5 range

    CBA allows team incentives?

  70. LMHF#1 says:

    jtblack:
    Raise your hand if you have gone to your Boss / Employer in the last 2 years and said “Please reduce my pay or put a wage freeze on my pay so that the company can attract better talent going forward.”#TeamPlayer

    Bueller …. Bueller ….

    Can I make extra money on endorsement deals by winning more championships if I do this? Will my next deal be more valuable if the value of the team has been increased significantly through our success?

    This argument you’re making doesn’t apply to this situation.

  71. N64 says:

    Jaxon: Re: Crosby’s 8.7M cap hit contract. I’m thinking he could have asked for a lot more at the time

    It’s one of those contracts you can’t do anymore. For just 8 years it would have been more.

  72. A'bunadh says:

    jtblack:
    Jaxon,

    “Sidney Crosby aware he was going to take less money to win a cup leading up to signing his 2nd contract from July 1st, 2007. 6 days before his singing:” ….

    TOP SALARIES IN 2009:

    Dany Heatley (Ottawa Senators) $10 million
    Sidney Crosby (Pittsburgh Penguins) $9 million
    Alexander Ovechkin (Washington Capitals) $9 million
    Mats Sundin (Vancouver Canucks) $8.6 million
    Miikka Kiprusoff (Calgary Flames) $8.5 million

    What an Admirable guy Sid was … he was only the 2nd highest paid player in the League … I don’t see that as a Discount ..

    So if you don’t think that was a discount then McDavid signing a contract as the second highest player instead of millions more than the highest player shouldn’t be considered a discount either?

  73. Georges says:

    LT (and WG):

    I compared the elite 5v5 GF-GA numbers you listed with the totals for each defenseman using hockeyanalysis. Only Benning did worse on GF% against elite competition. Everyone else did the same or better.

    Larsson, for example:

    30-18 against elite
    41-36 against the rest
    71-54 total

    So, as a team, we did better against elite competition than against the rest.

    WG, is this correct?

  74. Stanley says:

    So this seems to be what is going to happen. We will pay Drai 8.5-9 million for 8 years. He will settle into a 60-70 point guy centering his own line and people will start to turn on him saying he isn’t doing enough to justify his salary. Then in year 4 or 5 he will have a bad year & get 50 points. Then we trade him for a cheap young player that averages 30 points. Or for a lesser player to fill a hole in an area of need.

    So for the years he is on the team we will be restricted by his cap hit, and then we will end up trading him for pennies on the dollar all because we screwed up this contract by over paying him.

  75. till_horcoff_is_coach says:

    godot10: They will just waste the savings on players like Lucic and Russell, and then in five years one will have to paying them more than $22.25 million…one might have to pay them $30 million, and one has the same problem again.
    Pay your drivers (McDavid and Draisaitl)…all it does is force you not to overpay replaceable players.

    Or keep players like Nuge, Maroon, Benning or whoever else might perform well.

    So either way you are in cap hell, but in one way you get to win for a few years first before being in hell, and in the second you have to wait a few years before you can field a team in contention. I’m not saying it won’t cost more in years 5+, but it gives 5 years of a better record. Lots can happen in 5 years.

  76. Gret99zky says:

    jtblack:
    Raise your hand if you have gone to your Boss / Employer in the last 2 years and said “Please reduce my pay or put a wage freeze on my pay so that the company can attract better talent going forward.”#TeamPlayer

    Bueller …. Bueller ….

    Or,

    “Please raise my salary and lay off 2 of my co-workers!”

  77. jtblack says:

    LMHF#1,

    “Will my next deal be more valuable if the value of the team has been increased significantly through our success? This argument you’re making doesn’t apply to this situation.”

    If you take a pay cut now, the value of the business you work for will increase significantly through it’s success and ability to acquire more talent. Then on your next raise opportunity in 3 years, you can make waaay more money.

    It’s the NIMBY theory .. People will proclaim that Connor or Leon should take less money BUT if they were ever presented with the option of taking less money in real life, the situation wouldn’t apply or it wouldn’t make sense … Taking less money is a great theory, as long as none of us have to do it personally …

  78. till_horcoff_is_coach says:

    I can certainly appreciate these types of deals make the Oilers playoff probable for the next 9 years. I would rather see a 4 year period of yielding a dominant team for being a cup favourite first before going down the Chicago / Pittsburgh model of constantly dealing talent for cheaper alternatives. Neither is more right IMO, just a different preference.

  79. --hudson-- says:

    till_horcoff_is_coach:
    I would prefer a 5 year bridge at more affordable contracts for McD and Drai, but once you take in all the uncertainty for the McDavid camp at signing for so long I think the rumoured ask isn’t beyond reason.It is sad that it hamstrings the team for the first 3+ years – with them doing a chicago selloff before winning anything; but I don’t begrudge the player for making that choice.

    I think this market shift for the top tier of players will heavily favour teams like CBJ and NSH, who have very good players, but a more distributed offence.

    One thing the McD and Drais agents have to consider is the strong likelihood of salary rollback in 2022. I think last lockout was 5%. So once the term goes past 2022 there’s going to be a premium.

    However I feel the certainty of McD offsets the premium. And if we go 5 or fewer years with Drai, the certainty of McD helps us resign Drai.

    Agreed with your benefactors and would add one in Calgary since they have their big guns locked up long term.

  80. rickithebear says:

    LMHF#1:
    I understand why people are bringing up cap percentages, but don’t agree with using that as a way to calculate fair market value. Doing so makes a number of assumptions and also results in a large leap beyond current salaries that doesn’t make sense given how sports contracts work. McDavid is the best player in the league – but is he the best by several million dollars per year? No, no he isn’t.

    The cap is the cap.
    If Mcdavid Demands the same Portion of the cap as Crosby.
    Mcdavid, s salary is not the Problem.

    It is another factor:
    1. as pointed out By ????; is cap growth the same?
    we know this not to be the fact.
    Growth 2 years before Crosby
    5-6 to 6-7 12.82%
    6-7 to 7-8 14.32%
    7-8 to 8-9 12.27%
    5-6 to 8-9 45.38% avg 15.13% per season
    Crosby’s 5 contact seasons
    8-9 to 9-10 0.18%
    9-10 to 10-11 4.58%
    10-11 to 11-12 8.25%
    11-12 to 12-13 0%
    8-9 to 12-13 13.4% avg 3.35% per season

    12-13 to 13-14 0%

    13-14 to 14-15 7.31%
    14-15 to 15-16 3.48%
    15-16 to 16-17 2.24%
    16-17 to 17-18 2.74%
    13-14 to 17-18 16.64% avg 4.46% per season ; likely reflected by 13-14 hold on cap hold on cap.
    14-15 to 17-18 8.70% avg 2.9% per season

    or
    2. the % of cap taken by 2nd/3rd line players out of ELC has increased

  81. Munny says:

    $13.25M AAV seems too low.

  82. N64 says:

    Georges: So, as a team, we did better against elite competition than against the rest

    Let’s call that the 97 effect. Draft pools separated 99’s G and A. Puck IQ needs to breakout oil stats for 97 on and off. For VOR 😉

    Are we going to pay 97 enough?

  83. LMHF#1 says:

    jtblack:
    LMHF#1,

    “Will my next deal be more valuable if the value of the team has been increased significantly through our success? This argument you’re making doesn’t apply to this situation.”

    If you take a pay cut now, the value of the business you work for will increase significantly through it’s success and ability to acquire more talent.Then on your next raise opportunity in 3 years, you can make waaay more money.

    It’s the NIMBY theory .. People will proclaim that Connor or Leon should take less money BUT if they were ever presented with the option of taking less money in real life, the situation wouldn’t apply or it wouldn’t make sense … Taking less money is a great theory, as long as none of us have to do it personally …

    Knowing what I know about how to make money, what makes me happy and what my priorities are, I would absolutely do it in his situation. And I effing love money and all it can bring.

    If he’s going to be making 80+ mil on this contract alone, he’s going to make over 100 in his playing career and should have no problem getting to at least double that, not counting any endorsements or post-playing income.

    What’s his goal? If it’s to be a billionaire, the path isn’t hockey – it’s investing and owning businesses etc. Is it to be a champion who lives very very very comfortably for the rest of his life? Fairly straightforward at this point.

    This is another reason I hate the CBA – what I would want is a low salary but a chunk of the franchise as the contract continues. Not allowed anymore. Look at how that worked out for Magic Johnson.

  84. --hudson-- says:

    jtblack:
    LMHF#1,

    “Will my next deal be more valuable if the value of the team has been increased significantly through our success? This argument you’re making doesn’t apply to this situation.”

    If you take a pay cut now, the value of the business you work for will increase significantly through it’s success and ability to acquire more talent.Then on your next raise opportunity in 3 years, you can make waaay more money.

    It’s the NIMBY theory .. People will proclaim that Connor or Leon should take less money BUT if they were ever presented with the option of taking less money in real life, the situation wouldn’t apply or it wouldn’t make sense … Taking less money is a great theory, as long as none of us have to do it personally …

    It’s not uncommon to take less pay for a better work location or career path. It happens and I’ve done it. But I would argue the dynamics are much different when your profession has a minimum wage of over $600k and an average salary in the millions.

  85. Ducey says:

    godot10: Exactly.Willis is pushing a false narrative, perhaps unintentionally.

    Willis, in that article, shows how “statistics” can lie.

    Hi Godot10!

  86. Bag of Pucks says:

    N64: CBA allows team incentives?

    Just checked and it appears not. Guess that would make it too easy to circumvent the cap. Shite.

  87. Side says:

    LMHF#1: Can I make extra money on endorsement deals by winning more championships if I do this? Will my next deal be more valuable if the value of the team has been increased significantly through our success?

    This argument you’re making doesn’t apply to this situation.

    I think your argument depends on a GM who won’t sign a Russell type player to 4×4. I hope Connor’s contract will be 13 mil, maybe it will stop Pete from offering a Russell type 4×4.

    “Connor, can you take a big discount? Shane Doan is still a free agent, and he wants 6×6 so… I need some dollars to work with here… thanks, you’re being a real team player.”

  88. dustrock says:

    1 PM PRESS CONFERENCE WITH CHIARELLI AND NICHOLSON CONFIRMED

  89. leadfarmer says:

    Side: I think your argument depends on a GM who won’t sign a Russell type player to 4×4.I hope Connor’s contract will be 13 mil, maybe it will stop Pete from offering a Russell type 4×4.

    “Connor, can you take a big discount? Shane Doan is still a free agent, and he wants 6×6 so… I need some dollars to work with here… thanks, you’re being a real team player.”

    I dont think anyone is asking for him to take a big discount. Pretty much every poster on here is cool with him being the highest paid player in the league. The difference is by how much should he be the highest paid player in the league

  90. vinotintazo says:

    dustrock:
    1 PM PRESS CONFERENCE WITH CHIARELLI AND NICHOLSON CONFIRMED

    to announce Howson’s new position…

  91. Side says:

    leadfarmer: I dont think anyone is asking for him to take a big discount.Pretty much every poster on here is cool with him being the highest paid player in the league.The difference is by how much should he be thehighest paid player in the league

    Well what’s a big discount in your eyes and what do you think Connor should be paid?

    I’ve seen people say 9-10 million here. Sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

  92. Chachi says:

    vinotintazo: to announce Howson’s new position…

    And a new “Bobby Nick’s” hot dog.

  93. dustrock says:

    McDavid has been traded to the Philadelphia Flyers for Ron Hextall and the ghosts of Peter Forsberg, Steven Duschene, Mike Ricci, Chris Simon, and Kerry Huffman.

    He’s also traded to the Rags for the corpses of Sergei Nemchinov, Tony Amonte, Alexei Kovalev, James Patrick, and John Vanbiesbrouck .

  94. GBandQ says:

    Chachi: And a new “Bobby Nick’s” hot dog.

    … to announce the new “Howson Hotdog”. Made entirely from scraps and leftovers! C’était très délicieux!!

  95. LMHF#1 says:

    Side: I think your argument depends on a GM who won’t sign a Russell type player to 4×4.I hope Connor’s contract will be 13 mil, maybe it will stop Pete from offering a Russell type 4×4.

    “Connor, can you take a big discount? Shane Doan is still a free agent, and he wants 6×6 so… I need some dollars to work with here… thanks, you’re being a real team player.”

    This is the kind of conversation he should and I hope is having with Chiarelli and Katz.

    He’s a big enough part of the org that the avenue must be open to him.

  96. Cassandra says:

    Richard S.S.:
    Too many armchair GMs yelling down a gopher hole.Peter Chiarelli is one of the Best GMs in the NHL.Those that disagree are still fascinated by that gopher hole.On the open market, with no Cap, McDavid would easily be worth $50.0 Million per season.Anything less is a huge bargain, complaining about it is just breaking wind.

    This post is hilariously wrong. However, it is summer and Chachi and Ducey now like me, so I’m not going to bite.

  97. npanciroli says:

    Richard S.S.,

    I like a lot of what Chiarelli has done but also think he has had some missteps along the way. With that said i think some people forget he has the impossible task of trying to win a cup while simultaneously restocking our terrible prospect system.

    So far I think he’s done really well. I am nervous about next year and no improvement but it’s still early.

  98. russ99 says:

    JustWatt: This feels like “glass half empty” thinking about Russel. It’s absolutely true that McDavid scored at a substantially slower rate with Russel on the ice than any other teammate.

    It’s also true though that the Oilers outscored the opposition by its widest margin (if I am remembering the numbers correctly) with them both on the ice.

    It’s lower event hockey and more than half of it happened in the defensive zone but the goals were so strongly tilted in favor of Edmonton that I have a hard time getting mad about it. Glass half full

    Are there other metrics that back that supposition up other than Corsi, Fenwick and other “shots for” data?

    Russell as a primarily stay at home, entry allowing, shot quality defending player won’t have good shots for data with anybody.

    IMO, he’s being penalized by that, when scoring or HDSC% doesn’t always correlate with Corsi.

  99. Chachi says:

    Cassandra: This post is hilariously wrong.However, it is summer and Chachi and Ducey now like me, so I’m not going to bite.

    Whoa, whoa, whoa, who said I “liked” you? 🙂

    Also, Chiarelli is definitely one of the 31 best current NHL GMs.

  100. Chachi says:

    GBandQ: … to announce the new “Howson Hotdog”. Made entirely from scraps and leftovers! C’était très délicieux!!

    Mmmmmmmmmm scraps and leftovers…..

  101. N64 says:

    Ryan Rishaug @TSNRyanRishaug
    ·
    1m

    Sounds like original @FriedgeHNIC reporting of 13.25m/yr for McDavid was accurate at the time, but the # he settled on may be lower.

  102. Chachi says:

    “Ryan Rishaug‏Verified account @TSNRyanRishaug 3m3 minutes ago

    Sounds like original @FriedgeHNIC reporting of 13.25m/yr for McDavid was accurate at the time, but the # he settled on may be lower.”

    If this is true we have all been played. It is smart, but transparent, public relations work.

  103. Jaxon says:

    jtblack:
    leadfarmer,

    For sure I do … but why do some people think $13 is an outrageous number for the best player in the World … whether he’s half RFA years, half UFA years, it doesn’t matter. Connor should be the highest paid player in the game and $13 Million puts him inline with the highest salaries in the League.

    Yes, but that is 13.25 Cap Hit or Average Annual Salary. Under the CBA rules, his contract could be any one of these scenarios:

    Front loaded (beneficial to player for possible injuries and simply having the money in the bank to make more money with it)

    Year 1: $17.5M
    Year 2: $16.25M
    Year 3: $15M
    Year 4: $13.75M
    Year 5: $12.5M
    Year 6: $11.75M
    Year 7: $10.5M
    Year 8: $8.75M

    or back loaded (which the player wouldn’t like):

    Year 1: $8.75M
    Year 2: $10.5M
    Year 3: $11.75M
    Year 4: $12.5M
    Year 5: $13.75M
    Year 6: $15M
    Year 7: $16.25M
    Year 8: $17.5M

    or Equal:

    Year 1: $13.25M
    Year 2: $13.25M
    Year 3: $13.25M
    Year 4: $13.25M
    Year 5: $13.25M
    Year 6: $13.25M
    Year 7: $13.25M
    Year 8: $13.25M

    Or it could peak in the middle:

    Year 1: $10.5M
    Year 2: $12.5M
    Year 3: $15M
    Year 4: $17.5M
    Year 5: $16.25M
    Year 6: $13.75M
    Year 7: $11.75M
    Year 8: $8.75M

    All of these scenarios have a Cap Hit of $13.25M. Meaning at some point he gets paid very high ($17.5M range).

    So McDavid with a 13.25M cap hit may come out of this as being the highest paid player by over $4.5M or maybe even more if they shift numbers around a bit and only have a few very highly paid years and more lower end years at a higher rate.

    So to compare individual years of certain salaries is misleading and unproductive. They are in no way comparable. It depends on how the contract was structured and when the contract was signed. That is why comparing Cap Hits as a percentage of the Salary Cap and contracts with the same number of years at the same age is pretty much the only reliable way to make comparisions.

    EDIT (see new post below re: Maximum Salary)

  104. Ducey says:

    Cassandra: This post is hilariously wrong.However, it is summer and Chachi and Ducey now like me, so I’m not going to bite.

    Hey, now. Lets not get carried away 🙂

  105. Professor Q says:

    N64:
    Ryan Rishaug @TSNRyanRishaug
    ·
    1m

    Sounds like original @FriedgeHNICreporting of 13.25m/yr for McDavid was accurate at the time, but the # he settled on may be lower.

    Or he was going on the Dreger rumour, which Dreger retracted and admitted was just a guess with no insider founding, and is trying to backtrack.

  106. Bag of Pucks says:

    Further to Crosby’s 87 fetish, I think all salary figures should be based on the player’s jersey number, which would effectively make #99 the highest possible contract, and off limits for all of history given Gretzky’s retired number : )

    As #97, this would certainly put Connor in the upper percentiles!

  107. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Stauff yesterday hinting that there could be a forward signing with “character”. Which while I think Jagr is of great character, I’m thinking he means Iginla who in my mind was a bottom 5 forward in the league last season.

  108. Professor Q says:

    Bag of Pucks:
    Further to Crosby’s 87 fetish, I think all salary figures should be based on the player’s jersey number, which would effectively make #99 the highest possible contract, and off limits for all of history given Gretzky’s retired number : )

    As #97, this would certainly put Connor in the upper percentiles!

    My grandfather used to wear 00…

  109. SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo! says:

    N64,

    If this comes to pass I called it a week ago!

  110. Jon K says:

    97 million over 8 years would be a cap hit of $12.125 per year. Hard to imagine he would leave $9 million on the table but one can hope.

  111. pocession charge says:

    jtblack:
    Raise your hand if you have gone to your Boss / Employer in the last 2 years and said “Please reduce my pay or put a wage freeze on my pay so that the company can attract better talent going forward.”#TeamPlayer

    Bueller …. Bueller ….

    Raise your hand if your career involves professional athletics and you have a multimillion dollar salary.

    *crickets*

  112. N64 says:

    SayItAin’tSo, Gretz, SayItAin’tSo!:
    N64,

    If this comes to pass I called it a week ago!

    I’ve been calling for 100 over 8. 99 +1.

  113. pocession charge says:

    Stanley:
    So this seems to be what is going to happen.We will pay Drai 8.5-9 million for 8 years.He will settle into a 60-70 point guy centering his own line and people will start to turn on him saying he isn’t doing enough to justify his salary.Then in year 4 or 5 he will have a bad year & get 50 points.Then we trade him for a cheap young player that averages 30 points.Or for a lesser player to fill a hole in an area of need.

    So for the years he is on the team we will be restricted by his cap hit, and then we will end up trading him for pennies on the dollar all because we screwed up this contract by over paying him.

    You’ve been an Oilers fan for too long.

  114. Jaxon says:

    jtblack:
    Raise your hand if you have gone to your Boss / Employer in the last 2 years and said “Please reduce my pay or put a wage freeze on my pay so that the company can attract better talent going forward.”#TeamPlayer

    Bueller …. Bueller ….

    Come on. This must be disingenuous, right? You know they don’t compare.

    Whatever your field of business is.

    1. Do all the employees in your field make 50% of the profits of all the companies in your field?
    2. Is the salary pool in your entire field capped at 50% of the profits?
    3. Is the salary in your company capped at a certain amount that is equal to all other companies in your field?
    4. If you are very good at your job does your salary being very high mean your fellow employees at your company make less because you make more?
    5. Does your high salary then raise the salaries of all the other people in the other companies that are relatively as good as you at your job? Meaning not only did your high salary decrease the salary of those in your company, it decreased the salary of workers in every company?
    6. Is your company competing against all other companies for one specific prize?
    7. If you win that prize do you get very lucrative side deals and endorsements from other companies outside your field of business, like food and beverage companies, clothing companies and car companies mEaning that your take home pay increases significantly?
    8. Is it possible in your field, that by having a great company you can actually make a lot more on side deals? (Crosby makes over $4.5M in endorsements each year)
    9. If you get paid well at your job does it mean that you have to fill the rest of your company’s positions (exact number of positions) with minimum salary allowed in your field. Thus those employees won’t perform as well and it will limit your chances of winning that prize?
    10. Do you have 22 fellow employees and you make 15% of the company’s total allowable salaries?

    They are not comparable in any way.

    And Crosby did exactly that in Pittsburgh in 2007.

    http://blackandgoldworld.blogspot.ca/2007/07/theres-new-kid-in-town.html

    He went into GM Sheros’ office and told him that he will take less pay than he knew he could command as the best player in the NHL to make sure they could hire and keep better players around him to contend for a cup. And look who makes the most in endorsements in the NHL. It’s Crosby.

  115. pocession charge says:

    Richard S.S.:
    Too many armchair GMs yelling down a gopher hole.Peter Chiarelli is one of the Best GMs in the NHL.Those that disagree are still fascinated by that gopher hole.On the open market, with no Cap, McDavid would easily be worth $50.0 Million per season.Anything less is a huge bargain, complaining about it is just breaking wind.

    Chia is not infallible. It’s quite alright to question his decisions and criticize when he makes mistakes. Conversely, he should be praised when his decisions work out.

    $50 million/year for McDavid? Most teams don’t make a fraction of that profit. Only the Leafs, Rangers, and maybe a couple of others could afford that. No, $50M/year is a nonsensical figure.

  116. The Trade Guy says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    Stauff yesterday hinting that there could be a forward signing with “character”. Which while I think Jagr is of great character, I’m thinking he means Iginla who in my mind was a bottom 5 forward in the league last season.

    I kinda hope its a one year for Doan. Right the wrong of 1995 and he can be our absolute asshole when we play Anahiem again.

  117. Dee Dee says:

    Bag of Pucks: BAG OF PUCKS says:
    July 5, 2017 at 12:02 pm
    Further to Crosby’s 87 fetish, I think all salary figures should be based on the player’s jersey number, which would effectively make #99 the highest possible contract, and off limits for all of history given Gretzky’s retired number : )

    Some smart player would just figure out how to get a 3 digit jersey number.

  118. pocession charge says:

    Do we know what the rules state regarding owners giving players gifts? Could Katz gift one of his players a certain amount without cap circumvention coming into play?

  119. N64 says:

    The Trade Guy: I kinda hope its a one year for Doan. Right the wrong of 1995 and he can be our absolute asshole when we play Anahiem again.

    Sure we all expect 97 and Doan. And it turns out they are just announcing Kelly as an add to the management team.

  120. OilSafety says:

    Chachi:
    “Ryan Rishaug‏Verified account @TSNRyanRishaug3m3 minutes ago

    Sounds like original @FriedgeHNICreporting of 13.25m/yr for McDavid was accurate at the time, but the # he settled on may be lower.”

    If this is true we have all been played. It is smart, but transparent, public relations work.

    Under promise and over deliver.

    Chai probably learning from the Hall trade and cooresponding outrage, leak the worst and come in just a little under that. Cushion the blow.

    Oh crap, was I just the guy who brought up the Hall trade for the first time in a thread unrelated to that topic.

    I have become that which I despise. Move over under that rock, I need to go into hiding.

  121. Cassandra says:

    pocession charge:
    Do we know what the rules state regarding owners giving players gifts?Could Katz gift one of his players a certain amount without cap circumvention coming into play?

    Anything like that has to be approved by the league office. Even the Dad’s road trip gets vetted to make sure there is no cap circumvention going on.

  122. Professor Q says:

    pocession charge:
    Do we know what the rules state regarding owners giving players gifts?Could Katz gift one of his players a certain amount without cap circumvention coming into play?

    “It’s prohibited by the CBA under the section of No circumvention. A player cannot enter into any kind of financial arrangement outside of this contract with “any owner, shareholder, Club Affiliated Entity, the NHL or third party acting at the behest of a Club”.

    “For example, a Player is prohibited from entering into an agreement with a broadcasting company that is a Club Affiliated Entity, in which the Player agrees to host a weekly television show, for which he is to be compensated the fair market value of such services, as this would be something of value other than which the Player may properly receive through his SPC, or his share of Benefits and Government Mandates/Other Programs, or as otherwise expressly permitted by this Agreement.”

    A parent company would certainly be a club affiliated entity. The CBA also makes sure to point out that this doesn’t preclude endorsement deals with club sponsors, just club affiliated entities.”

    There is also a prohibition on players holding other positions with the team, such as Coach or GM etc. while playing. Nothing about Owner, however…

  123. LMHF#1 says:

    Professor Q: “It’s prohibited by the CBA under the section of No circumvention. A player cannot enter into any kind of financial arrangement outside of this contract with “any owner, shareholder, Club Affiliated Entity, the NHL or third party acting at the behest of a Club”.

    “For example, a Player is prohibited from entering into an agreement with a broadcasting company that is a Club Affiliated Entity, in which the Player agrees to host a weekly television show, for which he is to be compensated the fair market value of such services, as this would be something of value other than which the Player may properly receive through his SPC, or his share of Benefits and Government Mandates/Other Programs, or as otherwise expressly permitted by this Agreement.”

    A parent company would certainly be a club affiliated entity. The CBA also makes sure to point out that this doesn’t preclude endorsement deals with club sponsors, just club affiliated entities.”

    There is also a prohibition on players holding other positions with the team, such as Coach or GM etc. while playing. Nothing about Owner, however…

    Why would either side agree to this is my question.

    The mandated lack of flexibility in the current CBA is mind-boggling.

  124. ChiliChunk says:

    Bag of Pucks:
    Further to Crosby’s 87 fetish, I think all salary figures should be based on the player’s jersey number, which would effectively make #99 the highest possible contract, and off limits for all of history given Gretzky’s retired number : )

    As #97, this would certainly put Connor in the upper percentiles!

    Puljujarvi thinks this is a fantastic idea.

  125. Lucinius says:

    I’d rather not see the Oilers sign Doan, personally. Just not a fan of his game the last bit; he’s starting to really show his age. As is Iginla. I’d prefer Jagr, despite his speed issues, because of how he approaches the game. He may be slow getting into the zone, for today’s game, but his positioning and strength still make up for that a decent amount; guy remains one of the best cycle players in the game. A nice, one year deal for Jagr, imo, would be great. He’d even be great ‘in the room’, which GMs and coaches love.

    As for the contract talk; I won’t be happy if McDavid gets 13+ mil per year. Does he deserve it? Most likely, sure (although I’d like at least one more healthy season out of him before giving him that kind of money). I’m hoping for 12.25 mil per season or lower.

    For Draisatl; anything over 9 mil per year is just too risky. There simply isn’t enough sample size to show he deserves that kind of payoff. Was he great on McDavid’s wing? Sure, but so were others. Was he great in the playoffs? Sure, but that’s the definition of small sample sizes. I’d like to see Drai get a full season centering his own line to see if he’s worth that kind of money. Anything below 9 mil per year, however, and I think the risk is okay. Ideally, he’d go for less than 8 mil per season.

  126. leadfarmer says:

    12.5 mil for McDavid
    7.4 for Draisatl

    Keeping it under 20 mil for both.

    DO ITTTTTTT!!!!

  127. N64 says:

    How about direct to player PayPal buttons on team sites?

  128. pocession charge says:

    Cassandra,

    Professor Q,

    Thanks for that information.

  129. SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo! says:

    leadfarmer,

    I’d have a beer and then several others if they prices come in at roughly those rates!

  130. OilSafety says:
  131. leadfarmer says:

    Side: Well what’s a big discount in your eyes and what do you think Connor should be paid?

    I’ve seen people say 9-10 million here. Sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

    Yeah some people are dreaming, nothing wrong with that. I would love to have McDavid signed for 9.7 per but thats not happening.I dont see a contract of between 10.5 and 12 mil as unfair to either party. 13.5 is a little too high in my books. If the cap was going up It would be alright. But currently its not.

  132. --hudson-- says:

    Bob McKenzie‏Verified account
    @TSNBobMcKenzie
    Replying to @TSNBobMcKenzie @EdmontonOilers
    Oh, wait, it’s Connor McDavid signing. Huh. Not official, as I’m not working, but I believe deal likely to be 8 x $12.25M, give or take bit.

    Big if true.

  133. OilSafety says:

    Katz son front row?

  134. Jaxon says:

    I may have not understood maximum player salaries. If McDavid gets maximum and a 13.25M salary it could look something like this:

    Year 1: $15M
    Year 2: $14.5M
    Year 3: $14M
    Year 4: $13.5M
    Year 5: $13M
    Year 6: $12.5M
    Year 7: $12M
    Year 8: $11.5M
    for a 13.25M Cap Hit

    Or if he wants the maximum salary in one year and the lowest cap hit with regular equal decreases, it could look something like this:

    Year 1: $15M
    Year 2: $14M
    Year 3: $13M
    Year 4: $12M
    Year 5: $11M
    Year 6: $10M
    Year 7: $9M
    Year 8: $8M
    for an 11.5M Cap Hit

    Or a middle-peaked 11.5M deal:
    Year 1: $9M
    Year 2: $11M
    Year 3: $13M
    Year 4: $15M
    Year 5: $14M
    Year 6: $12M
    Year 7: $10M
    Year 8: $8M

  135. leadfarmer says:

    –hudson–:
    Bob McKenzie‏Verified account
    @TSNBobMcKenzie
    Replying to @TSNBobMcKenzie @EdmontonOilers
    Oh, wait, it’s Connor McDavid signing. Huh. Not official, as I’m not working, but I believe deal likely to be 8 x $12.25M, give or take bit.

    Big if true.

    Chia reads this site and has heard my bitchings. There’s no other explanation.

  136. Lucinius says:

    8×12.5, sounds like.

    Not bad.

  137. SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo! says:

    Yessssssssssss!

    Oh my god 8 years of McDavid at $12.5

    bahahahahahahhahahahaha

    (To clear things up I typed this in pure giddiness! Seriously we have Gretzky 2.0 or Crosby 2.0 for 9 more years. This is amazing)

  138. Ribs says:

    One Hundred Million Dollars. Can you imagine?

  139. leadfarmer says:

    leadfarmer:
    12.5 mil for McDavid
    7.4 for Draisatl

    Keeping it under 20 mil for both.

    DO ITTTTTTT!!!!

    You guys can go have that beer now. Woot!!!! 12.5 per. Right on the money. Now Drai do your thing

  140. Jaxon says:

    –hudson–:
    Bob McKenzie‏Verified account
    @TSNBobMcKenzie
    Replying to @TSNBobMcKenzie @EdmontonOilers
    Oh, wait, it’s Connor McDavid signing. Huh. Not official, as I’m not working, but I believe deal likely to be 8 x $12.25M, give or take bit.

    Big if true.

    People he works with, who are working are like, “Ahh, come on, dude. You’re not even working. You couldn’t let me have this? Not just this one time?”

  141. LMHF#1 says:

    OilSafety:
    Katz son front row?

    As he should be.

  142. digger50 says:

    I liked what Connor and Peter had to say.

    I absolutely believe Connor cares about his teammates with Leon front and center. Confirms to me Leon will be signed and while expensive it will still be manageable. Great news all round.

  143. The Trade Guy says:

    Man Connor is staying for a long time. This is great news.

  144. JonyPro says:

    Wow that was better than I thought. Now for Leon….

  145. dustrock says:

    yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

  146. N64 says:

    LMHF#1: As he should be.

    Official rep of owner at 100M spend.

  147. SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo! says:

    leadfarmer,

    Yay yay yay

    Beer Beer Beer!

  148. McNuge93 says:

    LMHF#1: As he should be.

    I tell you, they should put skates on him and see what he can do. he could be our new big winger.

  149. N64 says:

    digger50: about his teammates with Leon front and center.

    Room for Leon’s contract was clearly a criteria. Ideally they would have announced both deals today. Instead 97 finalized his discount from whatever he could have extracted. Thinking even more now that team is willing to do something in the 8s for max years.

  150. pocession charge says:

    Ribs:
    One Hundred Million Dollars. Can you imagine?

    For sure!……but that’s all.

  151. Jaxon says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    Stauff yesterday hinting that there could be a forward signing with “character”. Which while I think Jagr is of great character, I’m thinking he means Iginla who in my mind was a bottom 5 forward in the league last season.

    The Trade Guy,

    I think it could mean Alex Chiasson or Jimmy Hayes, too. Maybe Chiarelli hopes they’ll be the next Maroon reclamation project. I still don’t quite have my head wrapped around puckiq.com but I think they both show up well against elites dangerous fenwick. Chiarelli is most likely quite familiar with both of them as they played in Boston in college and I believe I read Chiarelli kept up on the college players in Boston. Both huge, so that fits Chiarelli’s mold as well. And it looks like they might fit Edmotnon’s cap concerns and sign a one year or more prove it contract on the cheap as they are not signed yet.

  152. jm363561 says:

    I think Howson’s appointment was crucial to the discount.

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