Misery

I can’t imagine the absolute slog running out the string on an NHL season must be like. Sure, the money is very good, but you’re flying to a new town every night, knowing the other team has playoff hockey ahead while your side is on the outside looking in. That said, the team has to show up and put out some effort and that brings us to last night. There were some injuries on the back end and it took a toll, but the power play offered no help and there were passengers up front. We’re seeing some of these men for the last time in an NHL uniform. Pretty sure.

THE ATHLETIC!

Great offer! Includes a free 7-day trial so you can try The Athletic on for size free and see if they enjoy the in-depth, ad-free coverage on the site. Offer is here.

  • New Lowetide: What if the 17-18 Oilers season was a blessing in disguise?
  • Lowetide: Can the Oilers find a partner in a Milan Lucic trade?
  • Black Dog Pat: What’s the use of continuity when the results don’t inspire confidence?
  • Jonathan Willis: Aberg and Rattie audition for jobs as value contracts in major roles.
  • Lowetide: Condors Curios: Interesting things bubbling under in Bakersfield.
  • Lowetide: What are the Oilers getting in Cooper Marody?
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: The Oilers and the Republic of Finland
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: The Oilers and Sweden.
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: The Oilers and the QMJHL.
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018Oilers and the WHL.
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: Oilers draft history and the OHL
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: The Oilers and the NCAA.

MAKE IT STOP, YEAR OVER YEAR

  • Oilers in April 2016: 0-1-0, goal differential -5
  • Oilers in April 2017: 1-0-0, goal differential +1 
  • Oilers in April 2018: 0-1-0, goal differential -3

I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s incredible how closely this season mirrors the 2015-16 campaign. If you’ll recall, the back half of that season marked a slow run by Taylor Hall (17 points in his final 32 games) that may have contributed to his being traded that summer. Beware of making big decisions based on small sample sizes.

AFTER 80, YEAR OVER YEAR

  • Oilers 15-16: 30-43-7, goal differential -53 (67 points)
  • Oilers 16-17: 45-26-9, goal differential +40 (99 points)
  • Oilers 17-18: 34-40-6, goal differential -34 (74 points)

The goal differential in these three seasons makes you dizzy, like riding Magic Mountain at Disneyland. My article in The Athletic today suggests ownership take some drastic measures this summer in order to make certain the organization isn’t compromised for years to come. This is a very strange three-season photo.

WHAT TO EXPECT FROM APRIL

  • On the road to: Minnesota (Expected 0-1-0) (Actual 0-1-0)
  • At home to: Vegas, Vancouver (Expected 1-1-0) (Actual 0-0-0)
  • Overall expected results: 1-2-0, two points in three games
  • Overall actual results: 0-1-0, zero points in one game 

The Oilers loss last night gets them to the No. 7 slot based on this morning’s standings. That’s a big damned deal. If the draft goes along a predictable line (Dahlen, Svechnikov, Zadina, Tkachuk, Boqvist, Hughes), a player like Oliver Wahlstrom could fall to the Oilers at that number. I’ve used Bob McKenzie’s list from two months ago, so there could be a late spike (Evan Bouchard?) in there.

DEFENSE, LAST NIGHT

  • Sekera-Russell went 12-6 in 12:04, 0-1 GF and 5-4 SF. I like this pairing more again, Sekera’s passing really helps the duo. His injury is inconvenient but there are only two games left. Sekera showed well in the last few outings, perhaps he’ll return to full Rej in the fall.
  • Russell-Bear were 6-18 in 9:49, 0-0 GF and 3-12 SF. Nurse-Bear went 5-1 in 5:45, I didn’t think of that as a pairing but Bear is an excellent passer and Nurse is more of a shutdown player.
  • Nurse-Larsson were 7-18 in 13:43, 0-1 GF and 5-13 SF. The goal against was a bit of bad luck, Larsson couldn’t find the puck in his feet and had about one second to make a decision. The pairing chased all night and I still think Klefbom is a better match for Larsson.
  • Cam Talbot stopped 37 of 39, .949. I don’t blame him for the breakaway goal but could be in the minority.
  • NaturalStatTrick and NHL.com.

FORWARDS, LAST NIGHT

  • Lucic-Strome-Puljujarvi were 14-12 in 13:25. It would be a very expensive No. 3 line next season and who knows if they’ll have chem in the fall. I don’t think JP scores 20 with this trio and no power-play time. 7-10 shots, 5-8 scoring chances, 2-4 in high dangers.
  • Slepyshev-Cammalleri-Kassian were 5-6 in 9:45. Were 2-3 in shots, 3-2 in scoring chances, 1-1 in high dangers. How many from this line return? What are the odds all three men are in new cities by October?
  • Caggiula-Khaira-Aberg went 5-10 in 8:31, were 3-6 in shots, 2-7 in scoring chances and 1-4 in high dangers. There’s a good chance all three of these men will be back, not certain that’s the right play.
  • Draisaitl-McDavid-Rattie were 10-20 in 15:07. They were good to great with the puck but didn’t have it much. Nuge, come back! Went 0-2 in GF, 5-13 in shots, 7-12 in scoring chances, 3-8 in high dangers. You’d have to look hard to find those kinds of numbers for a McDavid line during his young career. This stretch run has been a tough run.

MENTOR

When the Oilers brought over Jari Kurri from Finland, Glen Sather made a move to sign Matti Hagman (formerly of the Bruins and playing in Helsinki). Kurri was 20 and benefited greatly from having a veteran Finn with NHL experience on the roster. At the time of Hagman’s passing, Jim Matheson of the Edmonton Journal wrote a piece with some quotes from Kurri about Hagman.

I’d love to see Connor McDavid or Leon Draisaitl take on the mentor role with Puljujarvi. It might be a lot of hard work, but the payoff would come in the form of another drive. I believe the young man has it in him but skill needs skill to flourish.

DRAFT QUESTIONS

  1. Will the Oilers take a forward? If the team wins the lottery, it’s Dahlen. If any of Svechnikov, Zadina, Tkachuk or Wahlstrom is available when the Oilers pick, my suspicion is the team will grab a forward.
  2. Who are the top three defensemen? Bob McKenzie has it Dahlen, Boqvist and Hughes. I like Ty Smith enough to have him No. 4 in my rankings (a new ranking out tomorrow).
  3. How many of these men are plug-and-play for next year? I’d say five. Dahlin, Svechnikov, Zadina, Quinn Hughes and Brady Tkachuk seem to be either physically ready or carry one dominant skill that could project them into the world’s best league.
  4. What are the chances Edmonton trades its first-round pick? It’s a possibility. I have Oscar Klefbom, Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Jesse Puljujarvi and the 2018 top-10 pick as possible assets out. All are a bad idea, by the way.
  5. How many skill forwards should Edmonton draft? As many as possible. You can make the argument that the team’s devotion to defense in the 2015/2016 draft (eight of 15 players in those two drafts were blue) allows them some breathing room there. Also, the Oilers spent a high pick on a two-way option (Tyler Benson). Need to skill bigly. The 2017 draft featured skill forwards Kailer Yamamoto, Ostap Safin and Kirill Maksimov, the team needs to duplicate the performance.
  6. How quickly can the Oilers recover if they draft skill in 2018? By 2020 the organization could be flush with skill and hopefully men like Puljujarvi and Yamamoto will be successful alongside Connor McDavid and Leon Draisaitl. There aren’t a lot of options, and there is real urgency. Another season of auditions isn’t acceptable but we are heading in that direction.

LOWDOWN WITH LOWETIDE

A busy and fun morning, seems all the sports are happening. Beginning at 10, TSN1260, scheduled to appear:

  • Jonathan Willis, The Athletic. Last night’s game, the need for skill, will the Oilers chase speed?
  • Eric Koreen, The Athletic. We’ll get our weekly Raptors update and talk Villanova.
  • Scott Cullen, TSN. Historically bad trades that change franchise course and how quickly can a team recover?

10-1260 text, @Lowetide on twitter. See you on the radio!

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228 Responses to "Misery"

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  1. Ben says:

    If the priority is a plug’n’play draft solution, why not trade the pick for a proven player (ie: Hamilton)?

  2. Lowetide says:

    Ben:
    If the priority is a plug’n’play draft solution, why not trade the pick for a proven player (ie: Hamilton)?

    Cap space and years under control.

  3. Jethro Tull says:

    Misery – The best curling movie ever. Kathy Bates has the hammer, and Rusty’s tied to the bed.

    Disappointed about no McPoints.

    I wonder what impactful socio-political problems we’ll tackle on here today?

    NTC, NMC and “UFAs only cost money” is going to cost us……….*dons smug grin*……told y’all so.

    Still, I can’t wait until we see Dave Tippett next year and McDavid only getting 80pts, but putting a professional as always spin that “Dave has turned me into a more defensively responsible player” because Connor won’t rat him out.

  4. jake70 says:

    Approaching 8 years since Hall was drafted. A lot of forces (I would argue many/most not in the organization’s control) at play that make it difficult for Edmonton to ice a year-in-year-out competitive team but 1 year of playoffs is something.

  5. frjohnk says:

    Lowetide: Another season of auditions isn’t acceptable but we are heading in that direction.

    Yup.
    We have 3 top 6 forwards heading into next year.

    One saving grace would be the salary cap moving to $82M, which allow us to get a winger to play top 6, but if it only comes in at $78M, our hopes for balancing out the top 6 are probably on the shoulders of JP, Yamamoto and whoever we draft this June.

    Even if TMac is gone, there will be auditions again next fall, the horses just are not here

    And I just touched on the top 6, nevermind the defense, goaltending, special teams.

    What a mess

  6. jtblack says:

    EDIT: Dahlin is the spelling.

    I think the damage PC has done cannot be overcome in 1 year. I would say 2020 is the hope for Playoffs. Don’t see it next year.

    Would be heaven to add a plug and play for bext year. Come on ping pong balls

  7. leadfarmer says:

    Few thoughts.
    This season cant end fast enough for the Oil.
    All the people chasing Sekera away very quickly forget that he is our best all around d man.
    Once again if Mcdavids line doesnt score no one will score
    Puljujarvi is likely getting packaged this offseason. Management just does not like him

  8. HT Joe says:

    Jethro Tull:
    Still, I can’t wait until we see Dave Tippett next year and McDavid only getting 80pts, but putting a professional as always spin that “Dave has turned me into a more defensively responsible player” because Connor won’t rat him out.

    Ok, so that’s a hard no from you for Tippett. Would you keep TMac? If not, who would you bring in to coach?

  9. HT Joe says:

    leadfarmer: Puljujarvi is likely getting packaged this offseason. Management just does not like him

    Is it management that doesn’t like JP, or is it the coach?

    Either way, if the Oilers trade away JP before we know what he can become, they better win the trade optically.

  10. frjohnk says:

    jtblack: I think the damage PC has done cannot be overcome in 1 year.

    Boston fired Chia into the sun in 2015.
    They kept the good pieces, added skill and 3 years later are a Stanley Cup contender.

    We have a few good pieces, but need to add to this group. Trading RNH and or Klefbom is just swapping pieces, we need to add more. This team can contend but it will probably take a few years. Need to play out the bad contracts and hope the group of picks in 16,17, 18 are impactful cheap options in around 20-21. I think thats when we contend as long as that woodshed is far in the rearview mirror.

  11. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    leadfarmer,

    – I hope your wrong about Pool…

    – Next year, in the top-9: CMD, Drai, RNH, Lucic, Pool, Strome, Jar, Kailer, NewGuy

    – That’s a pretty versatile top-9 IMO, with lots of skill, lots of C’s, different attributes.. Bring in Cami+ and Rattie/Sleppy/Caggs/Aberg/Kass as either plugs or spot duty with skill and/or 4rth liners

    – On D: Sek/Klef/Larsson are all going to be better. Nurse is at least a top-4D now. Benning is solid as 3RHD. A Bear is lurking. Auvitu provides neat options. Russel still works as 4/5

    – Someone is going to get the chance to get more reps as the 2nd , and steal job from Talbot

    – Coach is going to have to coach up, or bring in new coach, or put him on notice, and he gets Mike Johnstened.. That worked out well for Pitts at the quarter mark…

    – Sh$t year: make some moves, ask hard questions, get better: it’s hockey, make the playoffs

  12. SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo! says:

    frjohnk,

    So I’d like for you to unpack that first statement a bit because from what I can tell the vast majority of players that make the Bruins into a Cup Contender were all scouted, drafted, developed and/or signed by Chia and his people save for Charlie McAvoy.

    I’d be willing to accept the a-historical argument that Chia would have overpaid all of Pastrnak, Marchand, Krejic (did not draft) and Krug (signed from college), nevermind that he was the fella who drafted, developed and slow played them into their latest contracts in the first place. But his successor also handed out NMCs to all those guys plus that contract for Backes (including full NMC) that has a whiff of Lucic all around it.

    But hey don’t let them facts get in the way of a good narrative right?

  13. boopronger says:

    Sounds like Karlsson would be available. Would people trade drai for him?

  14. frjohnk says:

    SayItAin’tSo, Gretz, SayItAin’tSo!: So I’d like for you to unpack that first statement a bit because from what I can tell the vast majority of players that make the Bruins into a Cup Contender were all scouted, drafted, developed and/or signed by Chia and his people save for Charlie McAvoy.

    What part of “kept the good pieces” did you misunderstand?
    Did I say that some of the good pieces were not because of Chia?

    Bruins were not a Stanley Cup contender in 15, but had some good pieces, some were because of Chia, ie Marchand, some were not ie Bergeron.
    They got rid or let go of some pieces that were on the downtrend, Eriksson, Lucic, Soderberg
    Did a bit of a retool and 3 years later are a Stanley Cup contender

  15. frjohnk says:

    SayItAin’tSo, Gretz, SayItAin’tSo!,

    You made me look a bit closer to his work in Boston.

    It seems like Chia has done a worse job in Edmonton than he did in Boston.

    He got fired into the sun in Boston.

    He might not get fired into the sun in Edmonton because of continuity.

  16. OmJo says:

    SayItAin’tSo, Gretz, SayItAin’tSo!: nevermind that he was the fella who drafted, developed and slow played them into their latest contracts in the first place.

    Is Chiarelli a scout and a head coach?

    I never quite understood why GMs got credit for drafting and player development, good or bad.

    From my limited understanding of the greatest game on Earth, it’s the scouts who tell the GM who to draft – or in our case, the owner (heh) – and it’s the coaches who decide who makes the team, how much they play, etc. The GMs just give them the tools to do their jobs.

    Somebody correct me if I’m wrong here.

  17. OmJo says:

    boopronger:
    Sounds like Karlsson would be available. Would people trade drai for him?

    Karlsson is going to go to an American team for pennies on the dollar because Canadian franchises are inept at maintaining their skilled players and/or trading those skilled players.

    But I don’t think I would do that trade straight up. That would leave us with 2 top 6 Fs heading into next season and doesn’t free up any cap space to add more.

    Although watching him and McDavid together would be something else.

  18. leadfarmer says:

    boopronger,

    I would if we didnt already trade all our forwards

  19. frjohnk says:

    Im sure Willis will expand on this today on the show. I didnt think things have been as bad as they were even with McDavid going supernova ( 49 points in 31 games. 8 points more than Malkin)

    Jonathan Willis
    ‏Verified account @JonathanWillis

    The #Oilers are 12-16-3 since February 1, a 71-point pace and a slight drop off from their 79-point pace pre-Feb. 1.

    Bruce McCurdy
    ‏This with McDavid firing on all cylinders since that date

    Jonathan Willis
    It’s an embarrassment.

    Jonathan Willis
    ‏Verified account @JonathanWillis
    10h10 hours ago

    It always looks worse after a game at this one, but I don’t understand the argument people are making for continuity. In context (McDavid) this might be the most embarrassing season of the decade of darkness.
    2 replies 0 retweets 9 likes

  20. Georges says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux,

    – Coach is going to have to coach up, or bring in new coach, or put him on notice, and he gets Mike Johnstened.. That worked out well for Pitts at the quarter mark…

    Since the league moved to 30 teams (2000-01), 80 teams have had more than one coach in a season. Just 26 of those teams have made the playoffs. So, given 16 out of 30 teams make the playoffs each season, teams with multiple coaches do worse than baseline, which seems intuitive.

    PIT pulled off the replacing coach mid-season and winning the Cup twice: Therrien-Bylsma and Johnston-Sullivan. LAK also pulled it off with Murray-Stevens-Sutter.

    PHI managed to make the Finals with Stevens-Laviolette.

    Coach Q replaced Savard and took CHI to the Conference Finals.

    Maurice took over from Laviolette and also took CAR to the Conference Finals.

    These are the bright spots. You’d expect about 3 Cup winners in a random sample of 80 teams (from 480 teams in 16 seasons) and you have 3. You’d expect about 5 Finalists and you have 4. You’d expect about 11 conference finalists and you have 6 (at least, I think it’s only 6).

    The typical experience for changing coaches mid-season is less likely to make playoffs. The median team in this group gets 80 points in 82 games, i.e., well out of the playoffs. Overall, the median team gets 92 points in 82 games, i.e., a playoff team.

  21. godot10 says:

    HT Joe: Ok, so that’s a hard no from you for Tippett.Would you keep TMac?If not, who would you bring in to coach?

    If not Todd Nelson, Jacques Martin.

  22. wood99 says:

    If we draft in the 7/8 spot; would you trade it for Philly’s two first rounders,#15 and 16. And do you think we would have to add another 3 or 4 pick.

  23. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    OmJo: Is Chiarelli a scout and a head coach?

    I never quite understood why GMs got credit for drafting and player development, good or bad.

    From my limited understanding of the greatest game on Earth, it’s the scouts who tell the GM who to draft – or in our case, the owner (heh) – and it’s the coaches who decide who makes the team, how much they play, etc. The GMs just give them the tools to do their jobs.

    Somebody correct me if I’m wrong here.

    – The Griff trade was brutal.

    – The scouting staff was fired 5 days before the draft, just as Chia was hired. It was pretty much telegraphed. Chia said: “We have to get better drafting and developing players”. It was pretty much telegraphed that they were going to trade away those picks

    – That’s what happened: no confidence in the scouting staff: so they trade away the picks for a the wrong guy (Hamilton would have been so good for this team). The decision not to rely on scouting reports from fired scouts was an organizational decision.

    – Chia’s better deal for Hamilton got scuppered, so the OBC get him to “right a wrong” and take Griff (because that’s the guy they wanted when they were over-ruled by Katz and they had picked Yak)

    – I get that Chia takes the blame for the Griff deal, but no one talks about the backdrop. It’s not going to get better untill Chia (or whoever is the GM), gets rid of the OBC that are grinding different axes

    – Firing Chia now would be setting team up for a repeat of that 2015: new guy comes in fires a bunch of people, there is chaos.

    ONE MORE YEAR! (or 25 games for coach, and mid-season firing of GM if its still bad

  24. godot10 says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux:
    leadfarmer,

    – Coach is going to have to coach up, or bring in new coach, or put him on notice, and he gets Mike Johnstened.. That worked out well for Pitts at the quarter mark…

    One has to change the coach in the off-season because there is no Mike Sullivan waiting in Bakersfield.

    Only reason McLellan didn’t get sent on vacation last December was there was no Mike Sullivan in Bakersfield.

    If one brings back McLellan, one is bringing him back for the full season, because even if they hire someone new in Bakersfield, there will be no Mike Sullivan in Bakersfield.

    Except for Nelson era, the Oilers’ farm team has been bottom feeders for a generation.

  25. CaptainObvious says:

    SayItAin’tSo, Gretz, SayItAin’tSo!:
    frjohnk,

    So I’d like for you to unpack that first statement a bit because from what I can tell the vast majority of players that make the Bruins into a Cup Contender were all scouted, drafted, developed and/or signed by Chia and his people save for Charlie McAvoy.

    I’d be willing to accept the a-historical argument that Chia would have overpaid all of Pastrnak, Marchand, Krejic (did not draft) and Krug (signed from college), nevermindthat he was the fella who drafted, developed and slow played them into their latest contracts in the first place. But his successor also handed out NMCs to all those guys plus that contract for Backes (including full NMC) that has a whiff of Lucic all around it.

    But hey don’t let them facts get in the way of a good narrative right?

    Strong^

  26. ArmchairGM says:

    OmJo: Karlsson…

    … watching him and McDavid together would be something else.

    I don’t understand why this would be such a big deal. Is it just because High Skill? Or is there some aspect of their games that makes you think they’d be amazing together?

  27. godot10 says:

    boopronger:
    Sounds like Karlsson would be available. Would people trade drai for him?

    No.

    Two centres is far better than one centre and one D.

  28. CaptainObvious says:

    frjohnk: Boston fired Chia into the sun in 2015.
    They kept the good pieces, added skill and 3 years later are a Stanley Cup contender.

    We have a few good pieces, but need to add to this group.Trading RNH and or Klefbom is just swapping pieces, we need to add more.This team can contend but it will probably take a few years.Need to play out the bad contracts and hope the group of picks in 16,17, 18 are impactful cheap options in around 20-21.I think thats when we contend as long as that woodshed is far in the rearview mirror.

    ^ Weak

  29. ArmchairGM says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux:
    leadfarmer,

    – I hope your wrong about Pool…

    – Next year, in the top-9: CMD,Drai, RNH, Lucic, Pool, Strome, Jar, Kailer, NewGuy

    – That’s a pretty versatile top-9 IMO, with lots of skill, lots of C’s, different attributes..Bring in Cami+ and Rattie/Sleppy/Caggs/Aberg/Kass as either plugs or spot duty with skill and/or 4rth liners

    – On D: Sek/Klef/Larsson are all going to be better.Nurse is at least a top-4D now.Benning is solid as 3RHD.A Bear is lurking. Auvitu provides neat options.Russel still works as 4/5

    – Someone is going to get the chance to get more reps as the 2nd , and steal job from Talbot

    – Coach is going to have to coach up, or bring in new coach, or put him on notice, and he gets Mike Johnstened.. That worked out well for Pitts at the quarter mark…

    – Sh$t year: make some moves, ask hard questions, get better: it’s hockey, make the playoffs

    So… do basically nothing and expect a 25-point increase next year. Is that what I just read?

  30. CaptainObvious says:

    frjohnk: What part of “kept the good pieces” did you misunderstand?
    Did I say that some of the good pieces were not because of Chia?

    Bruins were not a Stanley Cup contender in 15, but had some good pieces, some were because of Chia, ie Marchand, some were not ie Bergeron.
    They got rid or let go of some pieces that were on the downtrend, Eriksson, Lucic, Soderberg
    Did a bit of a retool and 3 years later are a Stanley Cup contender

    ^Weaker

  31. CaptainObvious says:

    frjohnk:
    SayItAin’tSo, Gretz, SayItAin’tSo!,

    You made me look a bit closer to his work in Boston.

    It seems like Chia has done a worse job in Edmonton than he did in Boston.

    He got fired into the sun in Boston.

    He might not get fired into the sun in Edmonton because of continuity.

    ^Weakest

  32. frjohnk says:

    CaptainObvious: ^Weaker

    Id liked to think Im consistently bad

    Id be perfect for Oilers management

  33. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    Georges,

    – Typically, coaches get fired because the teams are bad

    – The examples you cite for teams that go on and do well: they were good teams clearly. Pitts being closer to the Oil than most other coaches who get fired…

    – If we think the team is good, and the coach may be bad, I still think that the best course of action i giving Coach the benefit of doubt, but on notice.

    – Coach may be bad, but there are a lot of things non-coaching this year: we talked about the relationship between the goalie and the team: the goalie sucked this year. Is that on Coach

    – 0% sh for like 6 weeks for everyone non Drai/CmD is not on coach. Sek/Larsson/Klef performance is not on coach. From top-5 PP to worst this year: not sure whose that on.

    – First shot goals: not sure if thats coach, goalie or players

    – Team has sucked. Team will be better next year. Giving the team and coach to learn and grow and see if they can’t be better next year, and tweak isn’t the worst managerial decision IMO

  34. JimmyV1965 says:

    boopronger:
    Sounds like Karlsson would be available. Would people trade drai for him?

    I would love to get Karlsson and would give up a boatload to get him, but not Drai. Never. If the cap rises to $82 mill by the time Karlsson’s new contract kicks in two years from now, I think we can fit in McDavid, Drai and Karlsson. I would be willing to trade Klef, JP and our first rounder for Karlsson and the Penguins first round pick, which Ottawa owns.

  35. JimmyV1965 says:

    OmJo: Is Chiarelli a scout and a head coach?

    I never quite understood why GMs got credit for drafting and player development, good or bad.

    From my limited understanding of the greatest game on Earth, it’s the scouts who tell the GM who to draft – or in our case, the owner (heh) – and it’s the coaches who decide who makes the team, how much they play, etc. The GMs just give them the tools to do their jobs.

    Somebody correct me if I’m wrong here.

    Th GM hires the scouts so he’s ultimately responsible for scouting IMO. I think Gretzky was the man directly responsible though.

  36. PhrankLee says:

    Hard Target request:

    John Carlson.

    Hey LT. I think you’re right that we may not go after OEL or Karlsson size fish.

    But if this guy could be pried away from Washington somehow…jeepers, that’d be terrific.

  37. digger50 says:

    This morning I read while shaking my head.

    What a mess indeed.

    Rewind to 2015. We were adding Connor and a 16 pick into a team with poor defence but a lot of good pieces.

    How the hell did we get here? Dam

  38. CaptainObvious says:

    leadfarmer:
    Few thoughts.
    This season cant end fast enough for the Oil.
    All the people chasing Sekera away very quickly forget that he is our best all around d man.
    Once again if Mcdavids line doesnt score no one will score
    Puljujarvi is likely getting packaged this offseason.Management just does not like him

    Quoting LT above “Jessie Puljujarvi….He’s at home on the Strome line”

  39. JimmyV1965 says:

    godot10: One has to change the coach in the off-season because there is no Mike Sullivan waiting in Bakersfield.

    Only reason McLellan didn’t get sent on vacation last December was there was no Mike Sullivan in Bakersfield.

    If one brings back McLellan, one is bringing him back for the full season, because even if they hire someone new in Bakersfield, there will be no Mike Sullivan in Bakersfield.

    Except for Nelson era, the Oilers’ farm team has been bottom feeders for a generation.

    I agree. Tmac either gets fired in the offseason or you wait until the following year. We don’t have a coach we can bring up from minors mid season. I assume there will be someone new in Bak to start the season too.

  40. digger50 says:

    Kinger, just a point

    I have yet to see an employee do well in any job once they are put “on notice” or told they have “one more chance”. It never ends well.

    I see no reason it would be different with our coach and GM.

    You either have the trust and support of your management or you don’t.

  41. godot10 says:

    digger50:
    Kinger, just a point

    I have yet to see an employee do well in any job once they are put “on notice” or told they have “one more chance”. It never ends well.

    I see no reason it would be different with our coach and GM.

    You either have the trust and support of your management or you don’t.

    i.e. If you have to ask the question…

  42. Bobcaygeon says:

    @LT

    Is it a bad idea to trade picks and prospects for developed NHL talent on term?

    Can you afford to give up a first or prospect knowing that he will take at least a few years to be NHL ready.

    Example – If you traded the 1st OVA for Hoffman who has 4 years left on his term, you can replace that 1st loss next year and you should still be good as an organization given that most prospect take a few years to develop?

    To me it would be worth getting a skilled NHL player under term as long as the organization can recover internally the loss of the pick over the duration of the players term…

    Jeepers, I hope that made sense….

  43. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Jethro Tull,

    Still, I can’t wait until we see Dave Tippett next year and McDavid only getting 80pts, but putting a professional as always spin that “Dave has turned me into a more defensively responsible player” because Connor won’t rat him out.

    You may want to examine Tippett’s Dallas teams from 02/03 to 08/09 when he had offensive talent.

    He coached PHX differently as he had a different set of players and talent level.

    Tippett has done things as a coach very few have.

    Ie) Tippett joined an exclusive club during the 2006–07, as he led the Stars to a 50–25–7 record, earning 107 points. He joined Mike Babcock (Detroit), Scotty Bowman (Montreal), Tom Johnson (Boston), Mike Keenan (Philadelphia), Glen Sather (Edmonton) and Fred Shero (Philadelphia) as head coaches who led their teams to back-to-back 50-win seasons.

    Tippett’s teams outperformed their talent more years than not.

    I don’t think a McLellan team has ever outperformed their talent.

  44. hankster says:

    CaptainObvious: ^Weakest

    Funny!. But be careful Captain, he might use the wordcount as a stat to “prove” that his argument is stronger !

    Opinions, narratives, facts…Too bad so many posters here endlessly state their opinion as fact. Their hatred for Chia mostly stems from the Hall trade.
    For disclosure, I’m not a Chia fan for his poor negotiation skills.

    There is a rot inside the organization starting with the owner himself. It’s not just one thing like some people say here when many aspects of the organization has to be firing on all cylinders to achieve the stanley cup.

    Maybe the Oil will only regain former glory after Katz is no longer the owner of the team ! Chew on that.

  45. CaptainObvious says:

    OmJo: Is Chiarelli a scout and a head coach?

    I never quite understood why GMs got credit for drafting and player development, good or bad.

    From my limited understanding of the greatest game on Earth, it’s the scouts who tell the GM who to draft – or in our case, the owner (heh) – and it’s the coaches who decide who makes the team, how much they play, etc. The GMs just give them the tools to do their jobs.

    Somebody correct me if I’m wrong here.

    A general manager is the person on the management team responsible for building the team. They are usually tasked with player recruitment, development, trades, and overall management of the team. They are also responsible for hiring staff to support the team, including all managers and coaches, negotiating contract terms and trade deals, handling media relations, networking, managing the budget of the organization and preparing financial statements.

  46. CaptainObvious says:

    hankster,

    Funny!. But be careful Captain, he might use the wordcount as a stat to “prove” that his argument is stronger !

    ^ Strong and Funny

  47. OmJo says:

    ArmchairGM: I don’t understand why this would be such a big deal. Is it just because High Skill? Or is there some aspect of their games that makes you think they’d be amazing together?

    Erik Karlsson can move the puck better than anybody on this roster.

    And it’s not even close.

  48. JimmyV1965 says:

    ArmchairGM: So… do basically nothing and expect a 25-point increase next year. Is that what I just read?

    I’m certainly not thrilled with Tmac as the coach, but I think our poor record this year lies at the feet of the goaltender. You just don’t make the playoffs with basically the worst goaltending in the league.

    I think our defensive play is partly to blame, but Talbot has played very well for stretches this year with the same dmen and forwards in front of him. Inconsistency has been the hallmark of Talbot’s play since he arrived here.

    If we bring in the exact same lineup and we get league avg goaltending, I think we are fighting for a playoff spot next year.

    Having said that, the team can’t simply do nothing in the offseason. I’m probably on board with firing Tmac because I don’t think he’s going to win us a Cup. And of course we have many holes in the lineup that need to be addressed.

  49. --hudson-- says:

    Todd’s post-game from last night.
    – Discussing the loss and play of Talbot
    – Are the guys checked out?
    – Injury updates should come in the morning.

    Source video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg4CAx12Syw
    ————————————————–
    Q: {cutoff}
    A: Well we… powerplay is one of the areas, because we didn’t gain any momentum, we didn’t need to score, but we didn’t gain any momentum, and then I think, when we lost the two defenseman in, pardon me, halfway through the second, the other four ran out of gas a little bit… we spent more time in our end. You got to give them credit, they smelled blood, and they went after it… played a lot below our goal line and any time we did get the puck, we were out of gas to jump into the play or to make anything happen. So, give them credit, they found a weak point, they went after it.

    Q: The first five minutes of that second period though too as well, was that not scoring then they come back in their very first flurry of shots they’re able to get one in. Is that kind of… does that reset the team a bit and maybe take away some of the energy?
    A: I think that always happens. When you have, you know, first of all we didn’t have many chances, so when we did have the few that we had, you know, it comes back and it haunts you, you know, and it kills the momentum, it kills any energy that you might have, at the back end of a road trip, and then as I mentioned earlier you get short-staffed, and it just seems like you’re skating in mud. The passes aren’t real accurate, a lot of pucks bouncing around, and they get energized, and it’s just you’re fighting an uphill battle.

    Q: What did you think of Cam?
    A: I thought it was a good bounce-back game for him, you know, the good thing about Cam is he’s been able to bounce back from games. Earlier in the year, took him a little longer, so he’s doing a good job, that’s why we chose to play him tonight, to give him that opportunity, and I thought he made some tremendous saves, especially late in the third, where we were playing in our end a little too much.

    Q: You guys have been going pretty well for a stretch there, and now it’s like four or five losses in a row, and the mood doesn’t seem as good. Are they running out of a little emotional gas down the stretch here?
    A: I think the emotional part of it, I think that’s fair to say. They know there’s a finish line, the finish line is non rewarding, and you fall behind… you feel like you don’t get a break, you miss a net, an empty net or something like that, and it takes a little bit more out of you, and you know, we should be more resilient, we’re not right now, but we’re going home. We got to push hard for two.

    Q: Injury update on the two defenceman?
    A: Well they didn’t return and I haven’t heard much since. I know one needed x-rays, the other one was having something else checked out, so it’ll be a tomorrow thing.

  50. CaptainObvious says:

    Bobcaygeon:
    @LT

    Is it a bad idea to trade picks and prospects for developed NHL talent on term?

    Can you afford to give up a first or prospect knowing that he will take at least a minimum of two years to be NHL ready.

    Example – If you traded the 1st OVA for Hoffman who has 4 years left on his term, you can replace that 1st loss next year and you should still be good as an organization given that most prospect take a few years to develop?

    To me it would be worth getting a skilled NHL player under term as long as the organization can recover internally the loss of the pick over the duration of the players term…

    Jeepers, I hope that made sense….

    The question makes sense. The question you pose is unique to the circumstances of each individaul team. For a top heavy team (multiple mega-contracts) the requirement for the Value contract + ELC cycle is more accute

  51. Jethro Tull says:

    Woodguy v2.0,

    That 06-07 roster was quality. Eric Lindros? Nobody over 60pts, but balance, baby, balance. I would argue they didn’t out perform, they performed exactly how they were supposed to.

    Oh, and I believe there was one coach you omitted from the 50-50 club – Head coach of the San Jose Sharks, 2008/09 and 2009/10 seasons, 53 and 51 wins respectively. I forget his name or what happened to him. 😉

    HT Joe: Ok, so that’s a hard no from you for Tippett.Would you keep TMac?If not, who would you bring in to coach?

    Joe Q, if he’s fired.

  52. CaptainObvious says:

    Oh, and I believe there was one coach you omitted from the 50-50 club – Head coach of the San Jose Sharks, 2008/09 and 2009/10 seasons, 53 and 51 wins respectively. I forget his name or what happened to him.
    Jethro Tull,

    BOOM! No bias here.

  53. knighttown says:

    A few painful truths (well, opinions but that doesn’t sound as good);

    Can we talk about Darnell Nurse for a moment? We all have our irrational dislikes; certain tendencies about players that drive you nuts. Maybe it’s the Russell reset or was the Eberle buttonhook.

    For me it’s become anything Darnell Nurse does passed the redline. I will acknowledge his tools are terrific, he plays stout 1-on-1 defense and can munch a pile of minutes but by God does he suck with his offensive decision making.

    So many 40-second cycle plays end up with the Muffin-man and a medium speed wrister toward the net. So many McDavid or Drai neutral zone look-offs to carry it in himself and make a kick-pass 7 feet in front of the trailing winger.

    It’s probably the lack of self-awareness that is most galling. I put this a bit on coaching as it doesn’t seem like anyone has “told” him what he is and what he isn’t. Someone had a chat with him about his defensive zone awareness and in fairness, it’s gotten much, much better. He’s pretty good there now.

    But just so unaware how many plays die on his stick and more than that, I think he truly believes he’s part of the solution and not the problem here. Power play time now? My God, seriously?

    He’s brimming with confidence which is awesome but Coffey or whomever needs to create a full reset. “Darnell, you are a first pairing defenseman with the puck. Your skating and size combination is top 10 in the NHL for defensemen. But you are so far below your potential offensively I’d prefer Eric Gryba be out if we need a goal for. Let’s watch Ryan Whitney and health Andrei Sekera and John Klingberg to see guys who have way less tools but create exponentially more.”

  54. Bag of Pucks says:

    JimmyV1965: I’m certainly not thrilled with Tmac as the coach, but I think our poor record this year lies at the feet of the goaltender. You just don’t make the playoffs with basically the worst goaltending in the league.

    I think our defensive play is partly to blame, but Talbot has played very well for stretches this year with the same dmen and forwards in front of him.Inconsistency has been the hallmark of Talbot’s play since he arrived here.

    If we bring in the exact same lineup and we get league avg goaltending, I think we are fighting for a playoff spot next year.

    Having said that, the team can’t simply do nothing in the offseason. I’m probably on board with firing Tmac because Idon’t think he’s going to win us a Cup. And of course we have many holes in the lineup that need to be addressed.

    I would argue that goalie mismanagement is one of MacLellan’s defining traits as a Head Coach.

    He puts too much pressure on his starters and often plays them too much, and he makes it clear to his back-ups that they don’t have his trust so whenever they play, they’re playing like they’re auditioning for their job and can’t make a single mistake. When you’re part of Todd’s tandem, there’s never an opportunity to mentally relax as you’re not living in a ‘safe place.’

    Conversely one of Sather’s defining traits was that on the odd occasion that Fuhr got lit up by the opposition, Slats almost always went right back to him the next night. Even after Grant’s infamous third period in the Miracle in Manchester, Fuhr got the start for Game 5.

    In San Jose, MacLellan’s goaltenders consistently underperformed in the playoffs vs the regular season, with both fatigue and pressure obvious factors there.

    One of the reasons the Oilers had a such a proud goaltending tradition under Slats (Moog, Fuhr, Ranford, Joseph) was undoubtedly the quality of the player themselves, but it was hugely helpful that they also had an HC (later GM) who knew the right buttons to push.

  55. knighttown says:

    Painful truth 2;

    Watching Mike Cammalleri makes me realize just how dumb our wingers are. This guy is 64 years old and can’t really skate anymore but uses his brain to create more offense than the rest of the wingers combined. My worry is that this quest for “speed” is going to be at the expense of brains and you’ll have nights like last night when Aberg and company can’t connect two passes in a row let alone create a scoring chance.

    A team of 2008 Andrew Coglianos is not going to help very much.

    McDavid is a freaking genius. Leon, Nuge and Cammi are really smart. I also think Ryan Strome has good to great hockey sense and instincts.

    Aberg, Jesse, Caggs, Slepy and Kass can all move but there’s not many subtle plays out there.

  56. Bag of Pucks says:

    JimmyV1965: I’m certainly not thrilled with Tmac as the coach, but I think our poor record this year lies at the feet of the goaltender. You just don’t make the playoffs with basically the worst goaltending in the league.

    Not to pick on you specfically, but what about the special teams? Certainly Talbot owns some of the historically bad PK but the PP has been largely inept as well, especially considering that you have elite talents like McDavid and Draisaitl?

    This team has seen massive regression in every phase of their game this season. It can’t be all laid at the feet of one player imo.

  57. Georges says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux:
    Georges,

    – Typically, coaches get fired because the teams are bad

    – The examples you cite for teams that go on and do well: they were good teams clearly.Pitts being closer to the Oil than most other coaches who get fired…

    – If we think the team is good, and the coach may be bad, I still think that the best course of action i giving Coach the benefit of doubt, but on notice.

    – Coach may be bad, but there are a lot of things non-coaching this year: we talked about the relationship between the goalie and the team:the goalie sucked this year.Is that on Coach

    – 0% sh for like 6 weeks for everyone non Drai/CmD is not on coach.Sek/Larsson/Klef performance is not on coach.From top-5 PP to worst this year: not sure whose that on.

    – First shot goals: not sure if thats coach, goalie or players

    – Team has sucked.Team will be better next year.Giving the team and coach to learn and grow and see if they can’t be better next year, and tweak isn’t the worst managerial decision IMO

    I like: You are what your record says you are. It keeps things simple.

    McLellan’s record is bad after 3 seasons. He’s dropped 25+ points in the standings, close to where he was when he got here. His highly coached special teams perform at expansion team levels. And on and on. But he owns none of it. I can give you a very, very long list of specifics of how desperately this team needs to be rid of this coach and his staff and his whole losing, losing, accountability for everyone but me, it was like that when I got here approach. Listen to a Babcock interview, listen to Sutter, listen to Quenneville, listen to Sullivan, listen to Carlyle even. Then, listen to McLellan. Yeah…

    You seem to think the HC is a good coach for this team and he’s just a victim of circumstances. Give him the benefit of the doubt. He’s being sabotaged by his damn pesky players and things that are not “on him”. You seem to have confidence in him after what we’ve seen in his 3 seasons here.

    What exactly gives you confidence in him after what we’ve seen in his 3 seasons here? I’m curious. What do you like? I confess I don’t like anything. I like nothing about Todd McLellan as head coach of the Edmonton Oilers.

    I’ve explained how the continuity argument has no basis. Losing coaches don’t suddenly turn their teams into winners. They get fired. If not now, soon after. 74 points is really, really bad. 78 points is really, really bad. It smacks you upside the head like a sad sack of losing crap. This team was completely revamped from his first season team that got 70 points. Where are we now? We’re not in Kansas.. but hey, why does it still look like Kansas?

    Last season wasn’t a fluke. PC did his job. I said that was a great team that underperformed. Winning in the playoffs used to be the problem for this HC. So the result was kinda understandable. Now the problem is just winning at all. The losing has metastasized.

    Your results matter thing was so nice while it lasted so long ago. Now, results are not on you or me or him or anyone. They don’t matter at all. I believe McLellan is the second highest paid HC in the league. Katz can pay Patrick a much smaller amount in KrabbyPatties to coach CMD to 74 points. Or he can go with Shaggy and Scoobs. Hey, Scoobs, check out my spooky belief system. Zoinks!

  58. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    digger50:
    Kinger, just a point

    I have yet to see an employee do well in any job once they are put “on notice” or told they have “one more chance”. It never ends well.

    I see no reason it would be different with our coach and GM.

    You either have the trust and support of your management or you don’t.

    – Yes I agree, good point. I don’t literally mean put on notice: you give him the support, but you trust and verify. Meaning that going into this season, I don’t think they had any inkling that the coach might not be good and he’s the problem.

    – So you make the appropriate moves, and support him to the fullest: but you have a Plan B. A good management team is going to have internal discussions:

    – You don’t even need to put him on notice: if he is still coach next Fall, and he has a start like this year, he knows he’s getting fired. Nothing has to be said…

  59. SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo! says:

    frjohnk,

    But the retool was largely a result of the previous rounds of drafting and developing sans McAvoy who is a stud from 2016 when they missed the playoffs (after Chia left).

    Yes they let some guys go, you mentioned Looch so lets talk that.

    In the off-season of 2016, the year they let Looch go they went out and signed David Backes on July 1 for $6×5, AVV of $6 with a full MNC for the first 3 years and a M-NTC for the last two. The hitch is that Backes is 4 years older than Looch (he signed that deal at 32) so we can presume that his term was shorter as a result.

    My point? The same management group folks are fawning over in Boston signed David Backes to the exact same bloody contract, on the exact same day (actually came down the wire within a few minutes of each other) that Chia gave to Looch, save for two years term because Backes is 4 years older. Since signing those deals Looch has 84 points while Backes has 67.

    The real reason the Bruins are Cup Contenders? Their star players are in their prime (or are very very close to it), their young star players are able to grow into their roles and they have the right combo of skills mixed in at each position. All of those things are possible because of the drafting and developing that happened from same 2010-2016, who was running the show for the vast majority of that time? Chia and his people.

    I apologize if I sound like I’ve teed off a bit this morning but its that kind of framing that has bugged me (and i think OP as well) over the last few months.

    How does the above relate to the Oilers?

    Strictly by looking at the roster, talent pipeline and prospects here is my quick summary of the Chia-TMac-Bob Nicks Oiler plan following the 2016 season.

    1) Team is top heavy at forward but we have a mismatch, wingers are quite a bit older than our centers and are already paid.

    2) We have some “stuff” on the backend, specifically in Junior but it could be a few years before we know what stuff and dammit TMac traded Petry who was right-handed and in the perfect age bracket

    3) McDavid is amazing, Draisaitl looks to be legit, Nuge is young and developing

    4) Hmmm and now this super skilled Finnish kid has fallen into our laps at the draft table

    Result in the Summer of 2016 – Chia laying out the plan – “we reset the core around McDavid-Drai-Nuge and we find defensive pieces that fit their age range. Demers is good but he’s too old, isn’t as dynamic as we’d like and we already have Sekera as a long term mentor. Larsson fits the age range, is cost controlled for term and maybe he can help unlock Oscar who’s in the same range and who we’ve committed to. Man that backend will be huge if Nurse can step up in a year or two but lets slow play him. There’s the potential for some short term pain here though, we’re over a barrel because everyone knows we need a RHD so the cost will be dear, BUT the group of McDavid-Draisaitl-Nuge-JP should in a season or two be able to carry the load of losing Hall/Eberle, and we can always grab a vet presence in UFA that will complement those guys. In fact, I know one guy who could help but he’ll be expensive, should help though.

    IF we do this we’ll have long-term cost certainty for the core of our team and we can add younger pieces through the draft and have that core bring them along. I did all of this in Boston right before those clowns fired me and I was confident in the process then.”

    Sorry for the wall of text

    The above may be nothing but smoke on my part and maybe I’m giving way too much credit to Chia but after looking at how Boston has “re-tooled” there’s a whole lot of similarity between the two teams. I’m quite sure that this is the plan we have heard about all year. And I await this board’s thoughts.

  60. ArmchairGM says:

    OmJo: Erik Karlsson can move the puck better than anybody on this roster.

    And it’s not even close.

    Yeah, and McDavid skates the puck through three zones like nobody else in the world. I don’t see how adding Karlsson would make a huge difference to McDavid’s game. Most people point to Karlsson’s passing and McDavid’s speed, but how is that working out for Duchene?

  61. SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo! says:

    frjohnk,

    But the retool was largely a result of the previous rounds of drafting and developing sans McAvoy who is a stud from 2016 when they missed the playoffs (after Chia left).

    Yes they let some guys go, you mentioned Looch so lets talk that transaction and who was brought in to replace Looch.

    In the off-season of 2016, the year they let Looch go they went out and signed David Backes on July 1 for $6×5, AVV of $6 with a full MNC for the first 3 years and a M-NTC for the last two. The hitch is that Backes is 4 years older than Looch (he signed that deal at 32) so we can presume that his term was shorter as a result.

    My point? The same management group folks are fawning over in Boston signed David Backes to the exact same bloody contract, on the exact same day (actually came down the wire within a few minutes of each other) that Chia gave to Looch, save for two years term because Backes is 4 years older. Since signing those deals Looch has 84 points while Backes has 67.

    The real reason the Bruins are Cup Contenders? Their star players are in their prime (or are very very close to it), their young star players are able to grow into their roles and they have the right combo of skills mixed in at each position. All of those things are possible because of the drafting and developing that happened from same 2010-2016, who was running the show for the vast majority of that time? Chia and his people.

    I apologize if I sound like I’ve teed off a bit this morning but its that kind of framing that has bugged me (and i think OP as well) over the last few months.

    How does the above relate to the Oilers?

    Strictly by looking at the roster, talent pipeline and prospects here is my quick summary of the Chia-TMac-Bob Nicks Oiler plan following the 2016 season.

    1) Team is top heavy at forward but we have a mismatch, wingers are quite a bit older than our centers and are already paid.

    2) We have some “stuff” on the backend, specifically in Junior but it could be a few years before we know what stuff and dammit TMac traded Petry who was right-handed and in the perfect age bracket

    3) McDavid is amazing, Draisaitl looks to be legit, Nuge is young and developing

    4) Hmmm and now this super skilled Finnish kid has fallen into our laps at the draft table

    Result in the Summer of 2016 – Chia laying out the plan – “we reset the core around McDavid-Drai-Nuge and we find defensive pieces that fit their age range. Demers is good but he’s too old, isn’t as dynamic as we’d like and we already have Sekera as a long term mentor. Larsson fits the age range, is cost controlled for term and maybe he can help unlock Oscar who’s in the same range and who we’ve committed to. Man that backend will be huge if Nurse can step up in a year or two but lets slow play him. There’s the potential for some short term pain here though, we’re over a barrel because everyone knows we need a RHD so the cost will be dear, BUT the group of McDavid-Draisaitl-Nuge-JP should in a season or two be able to carry the load of losing Hall/Eberle, and we can always grab a vet presence in UFA that will complement those guys. In fact, I know one guy who could help but he’ll be expensive, should help though.

    IF we do this we’ll have long-term cost certainty for the core of our team and we can add younger pieces through the draft and have that core bring them along. I did all of this in Boston right before those clowns fired me and I was confident in the process then.”

    Sorry for the wall of text

    The above may be nothing but smoke on my part and maybe I’m giving way too much credit to Chia but after looking at how Boston has “re-tooled” there’s a whole lot of similarity between the two teams. I’m quite sure that this is the plan we have heard about all year. And I await this board’s thoughts.

  62. Jethro Tull says:

    Georges: Listen to a Babcock interview, listen to Sutter, listen to Quenneville, listen to Sullivan, listen to Carlyle even. Then, listen to McLellan. Yeah…

    You’re letting your implicit bias show. None of these guys demurely accept responsibility. None. It’s part of who they are. And Babcock is probably the worst.

    TMac is stubborn, slow to adapt, plays favourites, makes questionable in game decisions. This should be enough to hang him with, without comparing him to people that he is basically the same as.

    You’re very close to the divining rod argument; just because the rod doesn’t kick, it doesn’t mean water doesn’t exist.

  63. knighttown says:

    Georges: I like: You are what your record says you are. It keeps things simple.

    McLellan’s record is bad after 3 seasons. He’s dropped 25+ points in the standings, close to where he was when he got here. His highly coached special teams perform at expansion team levels. And on and on. But he owns none of it. I can give you a very, very long list of specifics of how desperately this team needs to be rid of this coach and his staff and his whole losing, losing, accountability for everyone but me, it was like that when I got here approach. Listen to a Babcock interview, listen to Sutter, listen to Quenneville, listen to Sullivan, listen to Carlyle even. Then, listen to McLellan. Yeah…

    You seem to think the HC is a good coach for this team and he’s just a victim of circumstances. Give him the benefit of the doubt. He’s being sabotaged by his damn pesky players and things that are not “on him”. You seem to have confidence in him after what we’ve seen in his 3 seasons here.

    What exactly gives you confidence in him after what we’ve seen in his 3 seasons here? I’m curious. What do you like? I confess I don’t like anything. I like nothing about Todd McLellan as head coach of the Edmonton Oilers.

    I’ve explained how the continuity argument has no basis. Losing coaches don’t suddenly turn their teams into winners. They get fired. If not now, soon after. 74 points is really, really bad. 78 points is really, really bad. It smacks you upside the head like a sad sack of losing crap. This team was completely revamped from his first season team that got 70 points. Where are we now? We’re not in Kansas.. but hey, why does it still look like Kansas?

    Last season wasn’t a fluke. PC did his job. I said that was a great team that underperformed. Winning in the playoffs used to be the problem for this HC. So the result was kinda understandable. Now the problem is just winning at all. The losing has metastasized.

    Your results matter thing was so nice while it lasted so long ago. Now, results are not on you or me or him or anyone. They don’t matter at all. I believe McLellan is the second highest paid HC in the league. Katz can pay Patrick a much smaller amount in KrabbyPatties to coach CMD to 74 points. Or he can go with Shaggy and Scoobs. Hey, Scoobs, check out my spooky belief system. Zoinks!

    I would think, like most jobs, the coach would be evaluated on quantifiable results versus expectations. Of course overall points would be the first metric but points are a result of a bunch of other measurable items.

    I’d have to think the most easily measured metric to judge a coaching staff is PP and PK percentage.

    PK especially should have very little built in excuses. A good coach should be able to find a dozen bodies to kill penalties.

    Perhaps on the PP, for a team with a dearth of talent, you could set the expectation that getting to 10th in PP% is a great outcome (instead of 1st). But with this team’s talent you’d have to think the goal was a top 5 PP.

    So if I was judging I’d say a PP ranked top 8 and a PK ranked top 10 and we’re giving gold stars out to the coaching staff.

    A PP in the top 10 and a PK at league average, you know, not really something to put on your resume but an end-of-the year chat about hitting stretch targets and coming back next year achieving more with this talent level.

    A 15th PP OR a bottom 12 PK would be a serious conversation about the assistant coach leading that particular discipline. Both results (versus expectations) would tell me that there are better candidates out there we should be considering. Basically, I’d be asking for a sacrificial lamb…”if this isn’t your fault fire whomever’s fault it is”.

    Both PP and PK at the bottom of the NHL AND no changes in the coaching staff? That’s the easiest firing in NHL history. Seriously. Why are we even having this conversation?

  64. ArmchairGM says:

    JimmyV1965: I’m certainly not thrilled with Tmac as the coach, but I think our poor record this year lies at the feet of the goaltender. You just don’t make the playoffs with basically the worst goaltending in the league.

    I think our defensive play is partly to blame, but Talbot has played very well for stretches this year with the same dmen and forwards in front of him.Inconsistency has been the hallmark of Talbot’s play since he arrived here.

    If we bring in the exact same lineup and we get league avg goaltending, I think we are fighting for a playoff spot next year.

    Having said that, the team can’t simply do nothing in the offseason. I’m probably on board with firing Tmac because Idon’t think he’s going to win us a Cup. And of course we have many holes in the lineup that need to be addressed.

    Of course. Kinger’s post was deja vu all over again – expecting players to be better because they’re one year older isn’t going to cut it this summer.

  65. McSorley33 says:

    frjohnk,

    Im sure Willis will expand on this today on the show. I didnt think things have been as bad as they were even with McDavid going supernova ( 49 points in 31 games. 8 points more than Malkin)

    Jonathan Willis
    ‏Verified account @JonathanWillis

    The #Oilers are 12-16-3 since February 1, a 71-point pace and a slight drop off from their 79-point pace pre-Feb. 1.

    Bruce McCurdy
    ‏This with McDavid firing on all cylinders since that date

    Jonathan Willis
    It’s an embarrassment.

    Jonathan Willis
    ‏Verified account @JonathanWillis
    10h10 hours ago

    It always looks worse after a game at this one, but I don’t understand the argument people are making for continuity. In context (McDavid) this might be the most embarrassing season of the decade of darkness.
    2 replies 0 retweets 9 likes
    **************************************************************************************
    Thank you….

    Some people are just not embarrassed…

    The head coach is Todd McLellan. ( Powerplay what powerplay?)

    The architect of the team is GM Peter Chiarelli – ( we need another LHD in Reinhart !)

    Some people wanted to win games down the stretch as well…..why?

    Lipstick on a pig anyone?

  66. doritogrande says:

    Rewind to 2015. We were adding Connor and a 16 pick into a team with poor defence but a lot of good pieces.

    Fast forward to this year’s World Championships and we’ll get to see Connor play with one of the options we HAD with that 16th pick. Barzal’s confirmed he will be playing for Canada.

    Beers will be thrown at TV’s, and one or more people will complain “we were gonna draft Eriksson Ek anyway”. I guarantee this.

  67. frjohnk says:

    knighttown:
    Painful truth 2;

    Watching Mike Cammalleri makes me realize just how dumb our wingers are.This guy is 64 years old and can’t really skate anymore but uses his brain to create more offense than the rest of the wingers combined.My worry is that this quest for “speed” is going to be at the expense of brains and you’ll have nights like last night when Aberg and company can’t connect two passes in a row let alone create a scoring chance.

    A team of 2008 Andrew Coglianos is not going to help very much.

    McDavid is a freaking genius.Leon, Nuge and Cammi are really smart.I also think Ryan Strome has good to great hockey sense and instincts.

    Aberg, Jesse, Caggs, Slepy and Kass can all move but there’s not many subtle plays out there.

    Cammy might be a cheap option for next year.

    Here is a list of forwards who have played more than 300 minutes with the Oilers and league rank of pts/60

    RK…Player……………Pts/60
    1 Connor McDavid 3.21
    34 Leon Draisaitl 2.38
    85 Ryan Nugent-Hopkins 2
    105 Mike Cammalleri 1.91
    137 Patrick Maroon 1.8****this is just time with Oilers
    226 Pontus Aberg 1.49****includes time with Preds to get to 300 mins
    230 Jujhar Khaira 1.46
    237 Ryan Strome 1.45
    263 Milan Lucic 1.35
    264 Zack Kassian 1.35
    275 Anton Slepyshev 1.34
    281 Jesse Puljujarvi 1.31
    323 Mark Letestu 1.17*****this is time with Oilers
    336 Drake Caggiula 1.13
    404 Iiro Pakarinen 0.53

    Just for reference
    Draisaitl W/O McDavid 2.11 pts/60
    RNH W/O McDavid 1.71 pts/60
    Cammy W/O McDavid 1.54 pts/60

    Of course, all players do better with McDavid, Cammy is no exception, but has scored at a decent bottom 6 rate without McDavid and can in spurts, play in the top 6 and do OK. Id be OK with bringing him back, but at a cost where if the wheels fall some more it does not hurt to bury him in the minors.

  68. frjohnk says:

    SayItAin’tSo, Gretz, SayItAin’tSo!,

    that was good.

    I do see where you are coming from.

  69. --hudson-- says:

    knighttown:
    Painful truth 2;

    Watching Mike Cammalleri makes me realize just how dumb our wingers are.This guy is 64 years old and can’t really skate anymore but uses his brain to create more offense than the rest of the wingers combined.My worry is that this quest for “speed” is going to be at the expense of brains and you’ll have nights like last night when Aberg and company can’t connect two passes in a row let alone create a scoring chance.

    A team of 2008 Andrew Coglianos is not going to help very much.

    McDavid is a freaking genius.Leon, Nuge and Cammi are really smart.I also think Ryan Strome has good to great hockey sense and instincts.

    Aberg, Jesse, Caggs, Slepy and Kass can all move but there’s not many subtle plays out there.

    Cammaleri has indeed been a revelation. In Calgary, beside the goal, he also got himself lined up for two one-timers that were dangerous, his shot regularly generates rebounds. Many of our wingers could learn how to make plays or exploit the defence the way Cammi does.

    I also really enjoyed the way he handled Spector and Rishaug in his first interview. Spector comes across as such an ass in this interview.

    Source video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV4En4I6q9U&t=61s
    ————————————————–
    Q (Rishaug): Do you feel like you still have the ability to contribute offensively at a significant level?
    A: I do, yeah, we’ll see, well we’ll find out shortly.

    Q (Spector): That’s the question, right, when a 35-year-old goal scorer comes to town, the question is what’s left? How much do you think you got left?
    A: Yeah, so you get… you guys get the fun job of predicting all that, and we’ll see who is right or wrong.

    Q (Greggor): Mike, do you feel more comfortable left-side or right-side? I know you play both, but do you feel better on the left?
    A: I’m taking more reps on the left, which I guess would lead to some more comforts, probably a good word, but I’m fine with wherever, you know, either side.

  70. Georges says:

    Jethro Tull: You’re letting your implicit bias show.None of these guys demurely accept responsibility.None.It’s part of who they are.And Babcock is probably the worst.

    TMac is stubborn, slow to adapt, plays favourites, makes questionable in game decisions.This should be enough to hang him with, without comparing him to people that he is basically the same as.

    You’re very close to the divining rod argument; just because the rod doesn’t kick, it doesn’t mean water doesn’t exist.

    I had to google implicit bias. Ohio State University told me that:

    Also known as implicit social cognition, implicit bias refers to the attitudes or stereotypes that affect our understanding, actions, and decisions in an unconscious manner. These biases, which encompass both favorable and unfavorable assessments, are activated involuntarily and without an individual’s awareness or intentional control. Residing deep in the subconscious, these biases are different from known biases that individuals may choose to conceal for the purposes of social and/or political correctness. Rather, implicit biases are not accessible through introspection.

    Give me a second while I introspect…

    Nope, my bias against McLellan is accessible through introspection. Nothing implicit about it. I’m explicitly biased against his losing record which I associate directly with his approach.

    The part about the interviews, and the ones I’ve seen and liked, isn’t about accepting responsibility. It’s about an aggressive attitude toward winning and finding ways to win. The wheels come off for everyone eventually. And there’s more failure than success on every record. I like those coaches’ tones and manner better than our guy’s. I think it’s because they’ve climbed the mountain. And he hasn’t figured it out. Some have confidence; some fake confidence. It eventually shows. They may do everything else the same. But they’re not basically the same. Even if my group is selected by chance, when they now say this is what winning looks like, it’s different from when our guy, who hasn’t been to the last series in his 10 seasons, says it. If you look at coaching trips to the Finals, it’s the Bible version: “For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance.”

    I don’t mean to set them up on pedestals. But, if I had to, I’d set them on a higher pedestal than our guy. They’ve all accomplished more than our HC in their chosen line of work. Someday, McLellan may join them. Quenneville did it late, Sutter did it late. But, for McLellan, if he does eventually win, it won’t be with this team. With this team, it’s time to move on. He’s handsomely earned his first firing.

    e: That will give him some much needed time to introspect.

    e: I can see by my original post that your reading of it was natural. I should’ve made explicit the part I liked about the coaches I listed. Because it reads like I think they do a better job of taking accountability. I don’t know anything about that. My bad.

  71. JimmyV1965 says:

    Bag of Pucks: Not to pick on you specfically, but what about the special teams? Certainly Talbot owns some of the historically bad PK but the PP has been largely inept as well, especially considering that you have elite talents like McDavid and Draisaitl?

    This team has seen massive regression in every phase of their game this season. It can’t be all laid at the feet of one player imo.

    No worries.

    I’m certainly not putting all the blame on Talbot. I’m just saying I think we can compete for the playoffs next year with league avg. goaltending. Personally, I think Tmac has to go because of special teams, player deployment, stubbornness and his defensive systems. Can we make the playoffs with Tmac as the head coach? I think so, but that’s no endorsement of the coach. Can we make the playoffs with the goaltending we got this year? Never ever.

  72. jtblack says:

    frjohnk: Cammy might be a cheap option for next year.

    Here is a list of forwards who have played more than 300 minutes with the Oilers and league rank of pts/60

    RK…Player……………Pts/60
    1Connor McDavid3.21
    34Leon Draisaitl2.38
    85Ryan Nugent-Hopkins2
    105Mike Cammalleri1.91
    137Patrick Maroon1.8****this is just time with Oilers
    226Pontus Aberg1.49****includes time with Preds to get to 300 mins
    230Jujhar Khaira1.46
    237Ryan Strome1.45
    263Milan Lucic1.35
    264Zack Kassian1.35
    275Anton Slepyshev1.34
    281Jesse Puljujarvi1.31
    323Mark Letestu1.17*****this is time with Oilers
    336Drake Caggiula1.13
    404Iiro Pakarinen0.53

    Just for reference
    Draisaitl W/O McDavid 2.11 pts/60
    RNH W/O McDavid 1.71 pts/60
    Cammy W/O McDavid1.54 pts/60

    Of course, all players do better with McDavid, Cammy is no exception, but has scored at a decent bottom 6 rate without McDavid and can in spurts, play in the top 6 and do OK. Id be OK with bringing him back, but at a cost where if the wheels fall some more it does not hurt to bury him in the minors.

    Isn’t 1.80 the common cut line for a 2ND LINE PLAYER? Essentially you have Connor & Leon scoring at 1st line rates. Nobody else. And we wonder why the team rocks a 41GF% when Connor goes for a drink of water.

  73. jtblack says:

    I am in the WOODGUY train. Go after Raanta or Gurbbauer. I could a tually see both overtaking Talbot as the starter. At the very least we could get 20 – 25 Quality Starts when Dadbot needs rest.

  74. jtblack says:

    Edm has 227 Goals.

    OUT:
    HALL – 37
    EBERLE – 25
    POULIOT – 13

    IN:
    LARSSON – 4
    STROME – 13
    CAMMY? – 3

    75 OUT. 20 IN. BYE BYE Secondary scoring.

  75. Bag of Pucks says:

    The only way a ‘keep Tmac for continuity’ argument remotely makes sense is if you believe the issues with the team are effort related and you don’t want to let the HC lose a power struggle with the players (i.e. let the lunatics run the asylum).

    But the problems with this are twofold: 1) Isn’t it Todd’s responsibility in the first place to not lose the room and keep the effort levels optimal? & 2) Can anyone honestly lay all the problems with the PK, PP, defensive system/positioning, goaltending, etc. at the feet of ‘a lack of effort?’ Or does this team look like one that is not playing a system that elevates the results gleaned from the efforts made? I would daresay it’s definitely the latter, and by the very simple fact that we’re 3 seasons into having a generational talent on the roster and the HC can’t seem to identify a single W beyond the elite 2C to play with him.

    You’d be hard pressed to find a single pre-season prognostication picking the Oilers to miss the playoffs. That tells us both the experts AND the masses felt there was enough talent there to compete. The fact that they didn’t get the results commensurate with the talent and expectations is 100% on the Head Coach.

    Fire MacLellan shouldn’t be a debate at all. The only debate should be whether it’s MacLellan and Chiarelli and I would argue Pete should get at least one shot with his guy as opposed to the guy that NIcholson packaged for him.

    The question that’s frequently asked and is a fair concern is, does Chiarelli even have the wherewithal to hire ‘his guy’ when the OBC and Nicholson and Katz are all so clearly invested in the group-think decision process that’s plagued this team for 20+ years?

    When did ‘Boys on the Bus’ become ‘Boys on the Short Bus?’

  76. JimmyV1965 says:

    ArmchairGM: Yeah, and McDavid skates the puck through three zones like nobody else in the world. I don’t see how adding Karlsson would make a huge difference to McDavid’s game. Most people point to Karlsson’s passing and McDavid’s speed, but how is that working out for Duchene?

    The benefit of Karlsson is that he can pass the puck to McDavid as he is building up speed. Drai is excellent at this. RNH is good too. But they’re forwards and rarely get the opportunity to do it. We don’t have a dman capable of doing that. And Karlsson might be the best in the league at it. Of course, you don’t go after Karlsson for this reason alone. You go after Karlsson because he’s a stud and you can play him and Larsson 50 minutes a night.

  77. jtblack says:

    EDM & TOR have had very similiar situations. Edm started 1 year earlier.

    Both teams had crappy defense, no Goalie and some talent at Forward.

    Both teams hired what they felt was the best avail Head Coach.

    Both teams landed a franchise Center.

    Both also made trades to acquire a potential starter.

    The major difference is that Toronto has kept all its Forward talent and used a patch work defense. They are a top 10 team and look to have a lineup that can be in the playoffs year after year.

    PC went for the quick fix. He sold off Talent and tried to immediatley bolster the defense. He has made the defense better, but they are sti only average. And PC has bled talent away in the form of Hall, Eberle, #16 & #33.

    It takes years to replace the talent thats been sent away.

    WE WAIT.

  78. Georges says:

    knighttown,

    “Seriously. Why are we even having this conversation?”

    Nicely put. (The whole thing.)

  79. JimmyV1965 says:

    SayItAin’tSo, Gretz, SayItAin’tSo!:
    frjohnk,

    But the retool was largely a result of the previous rounds of drafting and developing sans McAvoy who is a stud from 2016 when they missed the playoffs (after Chia left).

    Yes they let some guys go, you mentioned Looch so lets talk that transaction and who was brought in to replace Looch.

    In the off-season of 2016, the year they let Looch go they went out and signed David Backes on July 1 for $6×5, AVV of $6 with a full MNC for the first 3 years and a M-NTC for the last two. The hitch is that Backes is 4 years older than Looch (he signed that deal at 32) so we can presume that his term was shorter as a result.

    My point? The same management group folks are fawning over in Boston signed David Backes to the exact same bloody contract, on the exact same day (actually came down the wire within a few minutes of each other) that Chia gave to Looch, save for two years term because Backes is 4 years older. Since signing those deals Looch has 84 points while Backes has 67.

    The real reason the Bruins are Cup Contenders? Their star players are in their prime (or are very very close to it), their young star players are able to grow into their roles and they have the right combo of skills mixed in at each position. All of those things are possible because of the drafting and developing that happened from same 2010-2016, who was running the show for the vast majority of that time? Chia and his people.

    I apologize if I sound like I’ve teed off a bit this morning but its that kind of framing that has bugged me (and i think OP as well) over the last few months.

    How does the above relate to the Oilers?

    Strictly by looking at the roster, talent pipeline and prospects here is my quick summary of the Chia-TMac-Bob Nicks Oiler plan following the 2016 season.

    1) Team is top heavy at forward but we have a mismatch, wingers are quite a bit older than our centers and are already paid.

    2) We have some “stuff” on the backend, specifically in Junior but it could be a few years before we know what stuff and dammit TMac traded Petry who was right-handed and in the perfect age bracket

    3) McDavid is amazing, Draisaitl looks to be legit, Nuge is young and developing

    4) Hmmm and now this super skilled Finnish kid has fallen into our laps at the draft table

    Result in the Summer of 2016 – Chia laying out the plan – “we reset the core around McDavid-Drai-Nuge and we find defensive pieces that fit their age range. Demers is good but he’s too old, isn’t as dynamic as we’d like and we already have Sekera as a long term mentor. Larsson fits the age range, is cost controlled for term and maybe he can help unlock Oscar who’s in the same range and who we’ve committed to. Man that backend will be huge if Nurse can step up in a year or two but lets slow play him. There’s the potential for some short term pain here though, we’re over a barrel because everyone knows we need a RHD so the cost will be dear, BUT the group of McDavid-Draisaitl-Nuge-JP should in a season or two be able to carry the load of losing Hall/Eberle, and we can always grab a vet presence in UFA that will complement those guys. In fact, I know one guy who could help but he’ll be expensive, should help though.

    IF we do this we’ll have long-term cost certainty for the core of our team and we can add younger pieces through the draft and have that core bring them along. I did all of this in Boston right before those clowns fired me and I was confident in the process then.”

    Sorry for the wall of text

    The above may be nothing but smoke on my part and maybe I’m giving way too much credit to Chia but after looking at how Boston has “re-tooled” there’s a whole lot of similarity between the two teams. I’m quite sure that this is the plan we have heard about all year. And I await this board’s thoughts.

    I actually agree with much of this. Chia could be an excellent GM, but his negotiating skills undermine a lot of his positives. He gives up too much in trades and should be forbidden from negotiating contracts. I’m really on the fence with Chia.

  80. YKOil says:

    I look at next year as another investment year. Hopefully get a pay-off in 2019-2020.

    In regards to the pick: anything in the top-7 is a pick worth making; would consider trade if used to get young (read: cost-controlled) upgrade at R-center, R-wing or R-defence or used in a trade-back to get Grubauer (i.e. Edm 1st for Grubauer and Was 1st).

    In regards to Nurse: should get 6-7 years in-or-around $4.5 million; if looking for more than $5.0 then bridge.

    In regards to Lucic, Sekera and/or Russell: at least one of them should be moved this summer and it represents a massive failure by management to not be able to do so, NMCs or no. Prefer Lucic be moved but think Sekera requires less lift. All three are hard to deal but a good GM should be able to move at least one of them. Would like to keep Sekera all things considered but he can go.

    – This is hard-core GM work btw: letting their agent know to discretely look for a fit, making it clear that their role on the team could be changing somewhat but if so, probably for the worse, trying to keep the team from looking like sh*t in the process and making sure the team’s overall position isn’t made worse in the trade.

    Both GM and Coach should be gone.

    GM should have been on a very short leash after the Reinhart trade but it is the summer of 2017 that puts me over-the-edge: the buy-out of Pouliot one year too soon and no replacement on the penalty kill, the lack of assets added to Strome in the Eberle deal and the structure of the Russell contract are all signs of poor GM work and, more importantly, a sign of someone unable to learn from past mistakes (Korpikoski, Hall, Lucic). Don’t see PC as a do-the-hard-work-right kind of guy.

    Note: People can say that Russell is trade-able in year 3 of his contract but he isn’t EASIER to trade until year 4 (expanded list of teams and a low salary to bait a hook with). Of course, his performance could be falling off a cliff right about then too so… f&*k.

    Coach isn’t developing guys who need to develop. The performance of the PP and PK teams is enough, on its own, to put a coaches job in trouble – but maybe you give a conditional pass based on injuries and goal-tending – but in a lost year developing players is the one thing you HAVE TO DO so my patience for the coach is at an end. I have lost it.

    For the record, I continue to be a fan of Todd Nelson. Would take Quenneville first however.

  81. jtblack says:

    Lets see. Edm sits 20 Points out of a playoff spot and a Remarkable 41 Points out of 1st Overall.

    41 !!! The Oilers would have to keep playing all the way through Summer to catch the Predators 😉

  82. Jethro Tull says:

    Georges: I like: You are what your record says you are. It keeps things simple.

    https://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/NHL_stats.html

    Georges,

    The above link is very useful. It shows that Todd is a good regular season coach, but struggles in the playoffs. It also shows that Daryl Sutter wasn’t that good in the regular season, but killed it in the playoffs, if he got there.

    What were your thoughts on TMac this time last year? Can we look? Must we? I admit, your post is one of the best advocating “seen him good”, but not liking someone because of the tone of his voice? Taylor Hall sounds disinterested, anyone?

  83. godot10 says:

    Bobcaygeon:
    @LT

    Can you afford to give up a first or prospect knowing that he will take at least a few years to be NHL ready.

    Example – If you traded the 1st OVA for Hoffman who has 4 years left on his term, you can replace that 1st loss next year and you should still be good as an organization given that most prospect take a few years to develop?

    Hoffman doesn’t have 4 years left. He has two. And is 28. Which is meaning one is buying an asset for two years, because it would be nuts to re-sign a 30-year old winger for term and money.

    One looks for teams to take advantage of, where one doesn’t have to give up prime assets.

  84. frjohnk says:

    JimmyV1965: I actually agree with much of this. Chia could be an excellent GM, but his negotiating skills undermine a lot of his positives. He gives up too much in trades and should be forbidden from negotiating contracts. I’m really on the fence with Chia.

    I think Chia would be a fine assistant GM

  85. frjohnk says:

    jtblack: Lets see. Edm sits 20 Points out of a playoff spot and a Remarkable 41 Points out of 1st Overall.

    Only 12 points out of 31st overall!!!

  86. Bag of Pucks says:

    Fully agree that Chiarelli’s biggest failing is contract management. Even when he gets valuable cap space back in trade, he immediately blunts that win by negotiating inflated contracts elsewhere. He’s traded for value contracts, but when’s the last time he negotiated one?

  87. Georges says:

    Jethro Tull: https://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/NHL_stats.html

    Georges,

    The above link is very useful.It shows that Todd is a good regular season coach, but struggles in the playoffs.It also shows that Daryl Sutter wasn’t that good in the regular season, but killed it in the playoffs, if he got there.

    What were your thoughts on TMac this time last year?Can we look?Must we?I admit, your post is one of the best advocating “seen him good”, but not liking someone because of the tone of his voice?Taylor Hall sounds disinterested, anyone?

    Holy smokes. Are you serious?

    Have you checked out of LT and checking back in?

    Have you seen nothing of what I’ve been posting? I’m nearly godot like on this topic. I arrived at his conclusion later than he did because I think I rely on numbers more than he does.

    Do you think that if I expressed a positive and optimistic attitude toward McLellan heading into the playoffs last season that it undermines what I’m saying about him this season? Do you think my entire take comes down to “seen him good”?? Please go look, go see.

    You’re linking me to the hockey-reference coaches page… dude…

    All of my coaching posts are based on that dataset. So, yeah, I agree it’s very useful. To see that Todd McLellan had a .600+ winning percentage on a team that wins at a .600+ pace with the coach who came before him and who came after him. And to see he had less playoff success (as measured by how far he got in the playoffs) than either of them. And to see that Darryl Sutter is a very bad comp. for McLellan, unless you really like Tuesday night wins in January. And to see that his overall 3-season record with the Oilers is the kind of record that gets coaches fired.

    Tell you what… why don’t you share what you’ve “seen good” about McLellan? I’m interested.

    Is he basically the same coach as Sutter?

  88. digger50 says:

    knighttown:
    Painful truth 2;

    Watching Mike Cammalleri makes me realize just how dumb our wingers are.This guy is 64 years old and can’t really skate anymore but uses his brain to create more offense than the rest of the wingers combined.My worry is that this quest for “speed” is going to be at the expense of brains and you’ll have nights like last night when Aberg and company can’t connect two passes in a row let alone create a scoring chance.

    A team of 2008 Andrew Coglianos is not going to help very much.

    McDavid is a freaking genius.Leon, Nuge and Cammi are really smart.I also think Ryan Strome has good to great hockey sense and instincts.

    Aberg, Jesse, Caggs, Slepy and Kass can all move but there’s not many subtle plays out there.

    I can agree with your observations, while still liking most of the players mentioned.

    Another trait this team has developed is watching Connor they want to emulate Connor. Sounds like a good idea but they can’t, and thus we lose so many chances as everyone seems to look for the pretty goal.

    I like Cammalleri in that he used to score plenty goals, and he keeps it simple. I don’t think he’s here next year but I think there is a lesson to be learned. All goals count the same, doesn’t matter how pretty they are.

    Rattie to my eye, has proven fast enough. But as a third wheel to Connor / Nuge or Connor/ Drai, he often ends up the man in front of the net creating traffic. He is losing battles there.

    There is something to this balance thing. Speed is important but relative. Maroon provided more chemistry by doing a particular job and scoring a particular goal.

    I have time for Kassian in this regard as well. Let him do his thing. Don’t pay him 2m , neuter him and pigeon hole him.

    Aberg is fast. Now what? Speed alone does not seem to be helping.

    Yet all these players could succeed on a balanced team, you just can’t have all of them at once. We need more skill

    It is absolutely critical Jessie grabs a top 6 job and 20+ goals. Critical.

    Sometimes I get interrupted when writing a post, I pick it up an hour later, and thus I create these rambling posts!

  89. Bling says:

    I really doubt that Lucic is moveable.

    One of Sekera or Russell needs to be moved, and for me the guy to move on from is Russell.

    He wants to stay in Alberta and the Flames could use some help on their bottom pairing. I wonder if there is a fit there?

  90. leadfarmer says:

    Dear fellow Oiler fans. Pouliot signed a contract for a fraction of the one he had here. His minutes have been low and he even got healthy scratched just a couple games ago. This is not one of those guys you wish you still had on your team

  91. russ99 says:

    CaptainObvious: A general manager is the person on the management team responsible for building the team. They are usually tasked with player recruitment, development, trades, and overall management of the team.They are also responsible for hiring staff to support the team, including all managers and coaches, negotiating contract terms and trade deals, handling media relations, networking,managing the budget of the organization and preparing financial statements.

    This one is saddled with the owner’s drinking buddies (including his predecessor, which makes zero sense in any organization) in key scouting and information presentation roles.

  92. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    Georges:
    knighttown,

    – I’m just replying to Georges because I read his, but for all todays conversation has been really informative, thoughtful and without malice

    – I would caracterize the tone now as: “the team sucks and we have to fire a lot, and at best we are growth team untill we can dump some contracts and/or pool/kailer/benson/picks step up”

    – Before the season the same Clancy vote coach, with the GM of year vote Chia, and Vezina vote G, with the best player in the planet: we all thought (save Yeti), that we are at least a playoff team

    – Results matter indeed. For sure our former-Vezina-vote-goalie sucked this year. We can blame him, the coach or the GM for this.

    – But as fans we either put too much stock in last year, or it was a fluke and this is us, or the coach with the sameish roster just is no longer good and he’s a mirage, or the GM: the moves last year worked, but the now those players are currently bad (well Lucic for sure this is the case!)

    – There will be changes, and no tears will be lost if coach is gone, and the players will be like: “this is on us, not the coach”

    – But the rot in this organization runs deep. Untill the old-guard is punted, this won’t be a top-organization. Too many losers with not the same interests, too much resentment. Not enough different perspectives.

    * And Georges: if Coach gets fired and this team goes deep next year, you will be the toast to the town! I hope you are right!

  93. Wayne Kenov says:

    I still think that the Oilers biggest issue is a culture issue. Knowing more than I should about the behind the scenes of the Esks, I am willing to acknowledge that there was a huge loss in culture following the Maccocia exodus. The Eskimo Way wasn’t talked about for several years until Hervey came back, and rebuilt the culture from the ground up. That is what I’m looking for in the next GM. We can’t half ass it and leave the old malcontents around.

  94. Confused says:

    Apart from the goalkeeping situation ……. lets sign Svoboda!

    The biggest solution is a good 4RC, the new cornerstone of the PK.

    JJ – New 4RC
    Leon — Ryan
    Nuge — Pontus
    (apparently the man his skills in this area.)
    McDeity — Kass

    This also allows JJ to play LW — compete with Milan for the 2 /3 spot.

    Most obvious option our old friend — Derek Ryan!

    UFA and contact talks in Carolina without a GM are probably slow. Get his agent on the phone.

  95. leadfarmer says:

    Bling:
    I really doubt that Lucic is moveable.

    One of Sekera or Russell needs to be moved, and for me the guy to move on from is Russell.

    He wants to stay in Alberta and the Flames could use some help on their bottom pairing. I wonder if there is a fit there?

    Im sure it is. Theres been worse contracts than his that teams have gotten out from under. You just have to be creative. Is there a guy out there that has a contract and is on LTIR. Can you do a three way trade and have a team retain some cap for a second round pick. I’m sure someone would take Lucic at 3.5-4 mil.

  96. Washingtron says:

    In a bummer season like this one there’s a lot of I told ya so’s here. I’ve never understood the “told ya so’s.” First, no one is keeping track of the times you were right in the past, so why should anyone care if you were right this time? There’s no Scoreboard, people won’t respect your opinion more but they might roll their eyes next time they see your post.

  97. russ99 says:

    YKOil:

    In regards to Lucic, Sekera and/or Russell: at least one of them should be moved this summer and it represents a massive failure by management to not be able to do so, NMCs or no.Prefer Lucic be moved but think Sekera requires less lift.All three are hard to deal but a good GM should be able to move at least one of them.Would like to keep Sekera all things considered but he can go.

    – This is hard-core GM work btw: letting their agent know to discretely look for a fit, making it clear that their role on the team could be changing somewhat but if so, probably for the worse, trying to keep the team from looking like sh*t in the process and making sure the team’s overall position isn’t made worse in the trade.

    You’re making an assumption that the current or replacement coach/GM/staff don’t value what Russell and Sekera bring to the table, when it’s quite obvious that they would.

    And Lucic is untradable without a worse player/contract coming back. I’d rather get him to stay in Edmonton in the summer and work with a nutritionist, strength and flexibility coach and a skating coach and keeping a player who could bounce back than taking on someone else’s garbage that we have no idea if they’ll fit and will have to bury in the minors eventually.

    I’d value this “trading the NMC guys” talk much more if the base reasoning behind it wasn’t “Don’t trade sweet baby Nuge and dreamy Klef”.

  98. Wayne Kenov says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux: – I’m just replying to Georges because I read his, but for all todays conversation has been really informative, thoughtful and without malice

    – I would caracterize the tone now as: “the team sucks and we have to fire a lot, and at best we are growth team untill we can dump some contracts and/or pool/kailer/benson/picks step up”

    – Before the season the same Clancy vote coach, with the GM of year vote Chia, and Vezina vote G, with the best player in the planet: we all thought (save Yeti), that we are at least a playoff team

    – Results matter indeed.For sure our former-Vezina-vote-goalie sucked this year. We can blame him, the coach or the GM for this.

    – But as fans we either put too much stock in last year, or it was a fluke and this is us, or the coach with the sameish roster just is no longer good and he’s a mirage, or the GM: the moves last year worked, but the now those players are currently bad (well Lucic for sure this is the case!)

    – There will be changes, and no tears will be lost if coach is gone, and the players will be like: “this is on us, not the coach”

    – But the rot in this organization runs deep.Untill the old-guard is punted, this won’t be a top-organization.Too many losers with not the same interests, too much resentment.Not enough different perspectives.

    I had us at 92 points and missing the playoffs. We have 84, and might get to 88. Plenty of people were begging not to do something stupid with Eberle. Not to rely on borderline prospects going supernova. Questioning the intelligence of not covering the Sekera injury. Wondering about the sustainability of Talbot and Maroon. I think most people were incredulous of the GM of the Year nomination.

    We were stupid lucky last year. The morons wanted to play Caggiula as 3C!!!

  99. frjohnk says:

    Wayne Kenov: I had us at 92 points and missing the playoffs. We have 84, and might get to 88. Plenty of people were begging not to do something stupid with Eberle. Not to rely on borderline prospects going supernova. Questioning the intelligence of not covering the Sekera injury. Wondering about the sustainability of Talbot and Maroon. I think most people were incredulous of the GM of the Year nomination.

    We were stupid lucky last year. The morons wanted to play Caggiula as 3C!!!

    we have 74 points , could hit 78

  100. godot10 says:

    Jethro Tull: https://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/NHL_stats.html

    Georges,

    The above link is very useful.It shows that Todd is a good regular season coach, but struggles in the playoffs.It also shows that Daryl Sutter wasn’t that good in the regular season, but killed it in the playoffs, if he got there.

    What were your thoughts on TMac this time last year?Can we look?Must we?I admit, your post is one of the best advocating “seen him good”, but not liking someone because of the tone of his voice?Taylor Hall sounds disinterested, anyone?

    Georges has “published” a lot of actual data about why McLellan is not a good coach. Most of his criticism has not been subjective at all.

    This blog has been told repeatedly since the late fall of 2015 that the coach was going to be a problem moving forward.

  101. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    Wayne Kenov,

    – No offence, but with your nick, I can’t take you serious. Are you 11?

    Mike Hunt says hello.

  102. godot10 says:

    leadfarmer:
    Dear fellow Oiler fans.Pouliot signed a contract for a fraction of the one he had here.His minutes have been low and he even got healthy scratched just a couple games ago.This is not one of those guys you wish you still had on your team

    They are looking at younger players late in the season, so one scratches veterans. Pouliot could sign for less because the Oilers are still paying him. Pouliot is still on the Oilers salary cap for 3 more years, so he is still on “our” team.

    The Oilers had the cap room this year for Pouliot, They would have a better bottom six player than most everyone they’ve used this year, and when they bought him out after this season, he would only have been on the cap for two more years not three.

  103. Georges says:

    Jethro Tull: https://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/NHL_stats.html

    Georges,

    The above link is very useful.It shows that Todd is a good regular season coach, but struggles in the playoffs.It also shows that Daryl Sutter wasn’t that good in the regular season, but killed it in the playoffs, if he got there.

    What were your thoughts on TMac this time last year?Can we look?Must we?I admit, your post is one of the best advocating “seen him good”, but not liking someone because of the tone of his voice?Taylor Hall sounds disinterested, anyone?

    “The above link is very useful.It shows that Todd is a good regular season coach…”

    Does it show that? Does it show that he created a winning program? Last season was the first sign of that, where he took a losing team and brought it above water. Now that team is once again under water. In SJS, he was babysitting a team that had a strong track record of winning before he got there and still has it after he left. The only year that team hasn’t been in the playoffs since 03-04 was in McLellan’s last season with the club. Now we have his EDM record of 70, 103, 74+. Hmmm…

    “… but struggles in the playoffs.”

    No kidding. If you go back and look, you’ll see that I was with kinger last season in saying the team should make the Finals. Losing 4 out of the last 5 with home ice advantage, that hurt. Here’s what McLellan said: “But we basically got a college degree in a month.” Heading into this season, the Oilers were the Vegas favorites to make the Finals out of the WC.Big expectations. But making the playoffs should be no sweat, given we have a “good regular season coach” right?

    One disastrous season later, McLellan says: “”After that [first] game I think we took our foot off the gas, not thinking it was going to be easy, but just thinking we could play at a lower level than what we needed to have success,” he said. “That doesn’t happen in this league. Lesson learned, I hope.”

    Sounds like we got a post graduate degree. In what, I’m not sure.

    “I admit, your post is one of the best advocating “seen him good”, but not liking someone because of the tone of his voice? Taylor Hall sounds disinterested, anyone?”

    Why are you fixated on this and not the numbers part? Do you think Hall and McLellan are comparable in their respective numbers in their time in Edmonton? One scored at a 0.86 PPG pace. The other coached for 70, 103, 74+ points. Is this something that you want to run with?

    Do you know the tone of McLellan’s voice I like the least? The one he uses after losses. I hear it a lot and, I admit, it gets to me.

    It’s weird, Jethro. You strike me as more perceptive.

  104. Wayne Kenov says:

    frjohnk: we have 74 points , could hit 78

    Shit, math.

  105. Georges says:

    Jethro Tull: https://www.hockey-reference.com/coaches/NHL_stats.html

    Georges,

    The above link is very useful.It shows that Todd is a good regular season coach, but struggles in the playoffs.It also shows that Daryl Sutter wasn’t that good in the regular season, but killed it in the playoffs, if he got there.

    What were your thoughts on TMac this time last year?Can we look?Must we?I admit, your post is one of the best advocating “seen him good”, but not liking someone because of the tone of his voice?Taylor Hall sounds disinterested, anyone?

    “The above link is very useful.It shows that Todd is a good regular season coach…”

    Does it show that? Does it show that he created a winning program? Last season was the first sign of that, where he took a losing team and brought it above water. Now that team is once again under water. In SJS, he was babysitting a team that had a strong track record of winning before he got there and still has it after he left. The only year that team hasn’t been in the playoffs since 03-04 was in McLellan’s last season with the club. Now we have his EDM record of 70, 103, 74+. Hmmm…

    “… but struggles in the playoffs.”

    No kidding. If you go back and look, you’ll see that I was with kinger last season in saying the team should make the Finals. Losing 4 out of the last 5 with home ice advantage, that hurt. Here’s what McLellan said: “But we basically got a college degree in a month.” Heading into this season, the Oilers were the Vegas favorites to make the Finals out of the WC.Big expectations. But making the playoffs should be no sweat, given we have a “good regular season coach” right?

    One disastrous season later, McLellan says: “”After that [first] game I think we took our foot off the gas, not thinking it was going to be easy, but just thinking we could play at a lower level than what we needed to have success,” he said. “That doesn’t happen in this league. Lesson learned, I hope.”

    Sounds like we got a post graduate degree. In what, I’m not sure.

    “I admit, your post is one of the best advocating “seen him good”, but not liking someone because of the tone of his voice? Taylor Hall sounds disinterested, anyone?”

    Why are you fixated on this and not the numbers part? Do you think Hall and McLellan are comparable in their respective numbers in their time in Edmonton? One scored at a 0.86 PPG pace. The other coached for 70, 103, 74+ points. Is this something that you want to run with?

    Do you know the tone of McLellan’s voice I like the least? The one he uses after losses. I hear it a lot and, I admit, it gets to me.

    It’s weird, Jethro. You strike me as more perceptive.

  106. Wayne Kenov says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux:
    Wayne Kenov,

    – No offence, but with your nick, I can’t take you serious.Are you 11?

    Mike Hunt says hello.

    I’ll change it once I read it, and don’t giggle.

  107. Jethro Tull says:

    godot10,

    Godot has been beating the same fucking drum without any data for a year. So all we can say is that they were right despite him/herself.

    And now along come Georges, who does great work, crunched some numbers and arrived at his own conclusion and up pops Godot, “Yer, wot he said” like the yappy dog with the Loony Tunes Bulldog.

    Georges, you said;

    Georges: I like: You are what your record says you are. It keeps things simple.

    It’s hard to take this out of context. So basically: You are what your record says you are, unless my numbers, that I set the criteria for, say different.

    And what’s wrong with the Hockey Ref numbers? They’re just numbers, open to interpretation, like yours. Dude, you KNOW this. Are you insinuating that the coach doesn’t matter, because SJ would have made the playoffs without Todd. If so, why does it matter if he’s fired? If the team’s good enough, we’ll make it.

    All I asked was what was your opinion after Todd made the playoffs last year and his Oilers record was different from now? I expected you to be intellectually honest enough to say if it was different without me having to trawl. Besides, did you have a different user name? Because I can’t find much. Your reaction says something, but I’m not sure what.

    You want open discourse, fine. But you can sod off with the “are you serious” bullshit, and the pretense that you’re interested in my opinion now that you know it’s differs from yours.

  108. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    Georges,

    – Even if your right, and Coach is really bad, I think his track-record means something

    – You might see it as “yeah it was an awesome team and he baby-sat it for years”

    – They have been really good for 20+ years: Sutter, Wilson, DeBoer, Todd: none took them all the way, in 20 years: 4 different coaches, all failed to get it done

    – Then he had an amazing turn-around last year, and the team was humming. A healthy Sek and they are in the semi’s. He beats his old team in the first round

    – You have numbers pointing to his track record: no coach before or after won a Cup with his team. They went to the Cup the year after he left, then they were out first round. Maybe team just wasn’t ever good enough. More likely given 4 coaches failed

    – I think Todd might survive based on taking teams to playoffs 7 times, and based on the turn-around last year, and based on some things beyond coaches control this year. He’s not a multi-year chump records like say Tippett, or MacT or Lowe

    – Results matter: his track record suggest this year is not the trend, rather the anomaly (89 point season the year he got fired)

    – He has to own this year, and if he’s given the opportunity to learn from the season and modify, I’m pretty sure we will get at minimum the coach that was at least the “caretaker” you suggest he is.

    – Talented people, if they are able to learn and grow from their mistakes, and are provided the right feedback and support: they can achieve a lot.

    * all that said: how can the team that was this good last year, be so bad this year? Clearly the coach has a part of that: its not just on Chia, nor is it just on the players, nor is it just a series of bad luck events. For sure having by many measures the worst starting goalie, playing the most games in the league doesn’t help: but is that him, the coach, the GM, the injured top-3 D, luck?

  109. Jethro Tull says:

    Georges: “The above link is very useful.It shows that Todd is a good regular season coach…”

    Does it show that? Does it show that he created a winning program? Last season was the first sign of that, where he took a losing team and brought it above water. Now that team is once again under water. In SJS, he was babysitting a team that had a strong track record of winning before he got there and still has it after he left. The only year that team hasn’t been in the playoffs since 03-04 was in McLellan’s last season with the club. Now we have his EDM record of 70, 103, 74+. Hmmm…

    “… but struggles in the playoffs.”

    No kidding. If you go back and look, you’ll see that I was with kinger last season in saying the team should make the Finals. Losing 4 out of the last 5 with home ice advantage, that hurt. Here’s what McLellan said: “But we basically got a college degree in a month.” Heading into this season, the Oilers were the Vegas favorites to make the Finals out of the WC.Big expectations. But making the playoffs should be no sweat, given we have a “good regular season coach” right?

    One disastrous season later, McLellan says: “”After that [first] game I think we took our foot off the gas, not thinking it was going to be easy, but just thinking we could play at a lower level than what we needed to have success,” he said. “That doesn’t happen in this league. Lesson learned, I hope.”

    Sounds like we got a post graduate degree. In what, I’m not sure.

    “I admit, your post is one of the best advocating “seen him good”, but not liking someone because of the tone of his voice? Taylor Hall sounds disinterested, anyone?”

    Why are you fixated on this and not the numbers part? Do you think Hall and McLellan are comparable in their respective numbers in their time in Edmonton? One scored at a 0.86 PPG pace. The other coached for 70, 103, 74+ points. Is this something that you want to run with?

    Do you know the tone of McLellan’s voice I like the least? The one he uses after losses. I hear it a lot and, I admit, it gets to me.

    It’s weird, Jethro. You strike me as more perceptive.

    I like this post a lot more than your previous response. I’ll admit, i wrote a reposte telling you to go to hell, but deleted it once I read THIS one. The other one can still go to hell.

    Perception……am I less perceptive? Or do I perceive things differently than you do? Perhaps it’s because I’m not receptive to your opinion, which you have worked hard to form, which is the cigarette butt end in the hand crafted Salted Caramel Stout?

    OK, to work: So TMac inherited a team that should have made the playoffs with or without him in SJ. You predicted this team making the finals last year. So why, if TMac isn’t responsible for a team doing well, is he responsible for a team doing badly?

    “Does it show he implemented a winning program?” OK, you changed the goalposts a little here. A little unfair, with a hint of strawman. Are you asking if I can prove that the systems he had in SJ were Ron Wilson’s left overs or what he implemented himself? Because that is mighty unfair. And to try to prove it either way from behind a keyboard is like trying to figure out Narnia through the keyhole of the wardrobe.

    I was fixated on that your ‘tone’ comment because usually, you are all about the numbers. It reminded me of all the posters who would post about how Taylor Hall sounded like he didn’t care, even though his numbers were divine and clearly showed he wasn’t the problem. But there is subtle nuance creeping in that doesn’t just say that you think the coach should be fired for x-y-z reasons, but have a strong personal dislike of him. You know this will bias any further research, if true. You will always find exactly what you look for.

    It seems to me that you are harsh on Todd’s Oiler’s record, but discounting his SJ record because of ‘reasons’. After saying “You are what your record says you are.” I found it a little disingenuous, which I don’t think is intentional.

    To summarize what I think your arguments are:

    1) SJ made the playoffs for eight years despite TMac because they were so good and still using previous winning systems, but lost in the playoffs because TMac suddenly had influence on them and voodooed them to forget.

    2) EDM was bad in his first season, after 10yrs out of the playoffs, because of him. But then they should have won the cup in his second year, because they were suddenly a good team and didn’t need him, but once again he voodoos his own team to lose.

    3) EDM is bad because of him again, despite huge miscalculations by the GM about the readiness of some of the roster, frankly shitty goal tending, and the implosion of the previous season’s 5th best PP.

    I suspect the real situation is somewhere between what we’re both saying.

  110. Mr. D. says:

    JimmyV1965: I would love to get Karlsson and would give up a boatload to get him, but not Drai. Never. If the cap rises to $82 mill by the time Karlsson’s new contract kicks in two years from now, I think we can fit in McDavid, Drai and Karlsson. I would be willing to trade Klef, JP and our first rounder for Karlsson and the Penguins first round pick, which Ottawa owns.

    We know where 1 scoring line will take us. Way farther to pick up two 5 mill guys than Karlsson’s 11 mill. Our scoring depth really sucks. Take all the points on this team minus McDavid’s contribution and you’ll see how bad we are.

  111. HT Joe says:

    godot10: If not Todd Nelson, Jacques Martin.

    I don’t see Nelson returning unless MacT has been fired…

    Bring back Nelson!!!

  112. dustrock says:

    Regarding the draft, I have a hard time separating out the defencemen, but it’s fascinating to me that almost every list I see of people ranking the d-men, Smith is last.

    Boqvist/Bouchard/Hughes/Dobson get moved around, but Smith consistently comes in 5th.

    Is it because he’s in the WHL? His scoring this season has been historically good for the WHL, better than Provorov at the same age.

  113. HT Joe says:

    jtblack: The major difference is that Toronto has kept all its Forward talent and used a patch work defense. They are a top 10 team and look to have a lineup that can be in the playoffs year after year.
    PC went for the quick fix. He sold off Talent and tried to immediatley bolster the defense. He has made the defense better, but they are sti only average. And PC has bled talent away in the form of Hall, Eberle, #16 & #33.

    What is most upsetting is that this isn’t even 100% hindsight.

  114. OilClog says:

    Woodguy v2.0:
    Jethro Tull,

    Still, I can’t wait until we see Dave Tippett next year and McDavid only getting 80pts, but putting a professional as always spin that “Dave has turned me into a more defensively responsible player” because Connor won’t rat him out.

    You may want to examine Tippett’s Dallas teams from 02/03 to 08/09 when he had offensive talent.

    He coached PHX differently as he had a different set of players and talent level.

    Tippett has done things as a coach very few have.

    Ie) Tippett joined an exclusive club during the 2006–07, as he led the Stars to a 50–25–7 record, earning 107 points. He joined Mike Babcock (Detroit), Scotty Bowman (Montreal), Tom Johnson (Boston), Mike Keenan (Philadelphia), Glen Sather (Edmonton) and Fred Shero (Philadelphia) as head coaches who led their teams to back-to-back 50-win seasons.

    Tippett’s teams outperformed their talent more years than not.

    I don’t think a McLellan team has ever outperformed their talent.

    This.

    His name doesn’t end with Eakins, beyond ridiculous to suggest Tippet will turn Mcdavid into a 80pt player.

  115. leadfarmer says:

    Confused:
    Coyotes have offered Antti Raanta multiyear contract extension

    http://arizonasports.com/story/1485522/coyotes-have-offered-antti-raanta-multiyear-contract-extension/

    Raanta has the best GAA and SP in the league since Jan 1 despite not being on the greatest of teams. I think he hits free agency. I doubt this is Chayka’s first contract discussion with him

  116. JimmyV1965 says:

    Mr. D.: We know where 1 scoring line will take us. Way farther to pick up two 5 mill guys than Karlsson’s 11 mill. Our scoring depth really sucks. Take all the points on this team minus McDavid’s contribution and you’ll see how bad we are.

    Not sure if I understand you’re response. But I would rather have one $11 mill player than two $5 mill players. Of course it depends what $5 mil players you are talking about. It’s almost impossible to find very good $5 mill guys as UFAs.

  117. OilClog says:

    All stats aside,

    Giving Todd 25 games next season is something a beer league organization would do.

    Special teams is all about coaching, and the Oilers are historically awful at it. There’s no defending it.

    The team in Orange, needs a coach that views himself as part of the team in Orange and it’s that simple. If your coach is making statements like that to the media in the current situation the team is in.. he’s not leading you to green pastures next go around.

    Maybe if this coaching staff took any responsibility publically without laying it at the feet of the players things would be different. This coach has abanonded the team and is looking out for himself, they deserve a better leader then this.

    In a professional sports league if you want to be successful you don’t gift opportunities because of a somewhat shaky track record. Ooooo you took Joe Thornton and company to the playoffs 7 times, well here’s a lifetime pass sir.

    Anyways the Oilers deserve a coach that has their backs or they will never be success. Coach has successfully destroyed any mental edge they have/had. Look no further then Mcdavid and the teams record. It’s an embarrassment, fire this shitpile.

  118. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    OilClog,

    – last year the pp was same as pitts and was less than a percent from top-3

    – last year they were above average in pk

    – that they couldn’t adjust this year reflects poorly on coach but it’s not true that he didn’t have good special teams last year.

  119. ArmchairGM says:

    Question for the group: Lucic for Alzner has been proposed elsewhere. Thoughts?

    Obviously he’s another LHD, so this doesn’t work unless Sekera or Russell waives too. What is the general thought on Alzner as a player?

  120. godot10 says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux:
    OilClog,

    – last year the pp was same as pitts and was less than a percent from top-3

    – last year they were above average in pk

    – that they couldn’t adjust this year reflects poorly on coach but it’s not true that he didn’t have good special teams last year.

    They were 18th out of 30 in PK last year….I don’t think that is above average.

    Take away the first month of the season, they were 24th in PK the rest of the way.

  121. godot10 says:

    ArmchairGM:
    Question for the group: Lucic for Alzner has been proposed elsewhere. Thoughts?

    Obviously he’s another LHD, so this doesn’t work unless Sekera or Russell waives too. What is the general thought on Alzner as a player?

    Lucic has a full NMC. Why would he agree to go to a team worsely run with worse expectations than the OIlers?

  122. Mr. D. says:

    We’ve scored 223 goals. McDavid has scored or assisted in 103. We need DEPTH scoring.
    Folks..one player is involved in 46% of the scoring. We need depth scoring and solid defence at more than one position.

    JimmyV1965: Not sure if I understand you’re response. But I would rather have one $11 mill player than two $5 mill players. Of course it depends what $5 mil players you are talking about. It’s almost impossible to find very good $5 mill guys as UFAs.

  123. ArmchairGM says:

    godot10: Lucic has a full NMC. Why would he agree to go to a team worsely run with worse expectations than the OIlers?

    My question is strictly about Alzner. Obviously there are other factors affecting the deal. As for your question, nobody can answer that but Lucic himself, so I’m not sure why you’re posing it here.

  124. Doug McLachlan says:

    dustrock:
    Regarding the draft, I have a hard time separating out the defencemen, but it’s fascinating to me that almost every list I see of people ranking the d-men, Smith is last.

    Boqvist/Bouchard/Hughes/Dobson get moved around, but Smith consistently comes in 5th.

    Is it because he’s in the WHL?His scoring this season has been historically good for the WHL, better than Provorov at the same age.

    He does always seem at the end of the list. Not sure why. LT, by contrast, almost always has him right at the top (non-Dahlin division) of the list.

  125. JimmyV1965 says:

    Mr. D.:
    We’ve scored 223 goals. McDavid has scored or assisted in 103. We need DEPTH scoring.
    Folks..one player is involved in46% of the scoring. We need depth scoring and solid defence at more than one position.

    Karlsson will improve our scoring dramatically. And I think if you look our 5 x 5 scoring is decent. We get killed because of the PP.

  126. Doug McLachlan says:

    As for goaltending options.

    Interested in Grubauer but I suspect so are the Capitals and he is their RFA.

    I see that Capfriendly has now listed Broissoit as a UFA – which I believe is correct under the CBA.

    Not sure he’s shown enough to be kept.

    If not Raanta, who will rightly command #1 money, what is the collective opinion on Khudobin and Bernier?

  127. dustrock says:

    Speaking of Brossoit/Ellis, is there some reason we’re not playing them for a few games just to see if anything’s changed?

    I mean, if we’re playing meaningless games, might as well experiment?

  128. SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo! says:

    JimmyV1965,

    Two things:

    1) Pray that Ottawa wins the lottery (after the Oilers of course).

    2) Pray that Klefbom is cleared to workout before the draft.

    There’s a big chance that Ottawa is about to do something silly and one of the best dmen in the game is going to be available.

  129. Doug McLachlan says:

    dustrock:
    Speaking of Brossoit/Ellis, is there some reason we’re not playing them for a few games just to see if anything’s changed?

    I mean, if we’re playing meaningless games, might as well experiment?

    Not sure that the more meaningful test isn’t in Bakersfield, TBH.

  130. Georges says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux:
    Georges,

    – Even if your right, and Coach is really bad, I think his track-record means something

    – You might see it as “yeah it was an awesome team and he baby-sat it for years”

    – They have been really good for 20+ years: Sutter, Wilson, DeBoer, Todd: none took them all the way, in 20 years: 4 different coaches, all failed to get it done

    – Then he had an amazing turn-around last year, and the team was humming.A healthy Sek and they are in the semi’s.He beats his old team in the first round

    – You have numbers pointing to his track record:no coach before or after won a Cup with his team. They went to the Cup the year after he left, then they were out first round.Maybe team just wasn’t ever good enough.More likely given 4 coaches failed

    – I think Todd might survive based on taking teams to playoffs 7 times, and based on the turn-around last year, and based on some things beyond coaches control this year.He’s not a multi-year chump records like say Tippett, or MacT or Lowe

    – Results matter: his track record suggest this year is not the trend, rather the anomaly (89 point season the year he got fired)

    – He has to own this year, and if he’s given the opportunity to learn from the season and modify, I’m pretty sure we will get at minimum the coach that was at least the “caretaker” you suggest he is.

    – Talented people, if they are able to learn and grow from their mistakes, and are provided the right feedback and support: they can achieve a lot.

    * all that said: how can the team that was this good last year, be so bad this year?Clearly the coach has a part of that: its not just on Chia, nor is it just on the players, nor is it just a series of bad luck events. For sure having by many measures the worst starting goalie, playing the most games in the league doesn’t help: but is that him, the coach, the GM, the injured top-3 D, luck?

    You’re right about SJS. Sutter was fired after a bad start in 02-03 and Wilson eventually took over. They’ve been in the playoffs every season since 97-98 except for Sutter’s last year and McLellan’s last year. And, yes, they’ve never won the Cup in 20 seasons. And only one Finals appearance under DeBoer.

    The team finished first in the league in McLellan’s first 3 seasons and made the semis twice, winning one and losing eight in that round.

    All of that looks good and promising and counts. Very few coaches open their career with that level of success. It guarantees longevity because people will assume the HC had a big part in that. He has a very good record, he’s probably a good coach.

    What I’m saying about not moving the needle may seem harsh but it’s also true. Wilson and DeBoer both .600+ winning percentages with the club. The regular season is just a stepping stone to the playoffs.

    Wilson made the playoffs every season and got 10 playoff wins in his best year. DeBoer has made the playoffs every season and got 14 playoff wins in his best year. McLellan made the playoffs in 6 out of 7 seasons; his max was 9 playoff wins. Wilson had 28 playoff wins in 4 seasons. DeBoer has 16 playoff wins in 2 seasons. McLellan had 30 playoff wins in 7 seasons.

    So, under McLellan, did the team outperform his predecessor or his successor? If all we’re going on is winning?

    That’s why I used the term babysat. Maybe harsh. But I only care about his SJS record in light of what’s happened in EDM. Let’s say DeBoer’s tenure was much worse than it’s been. That would tell in McLellan’s favour. Or if McLellan’s tenure here had a more successful trajectory. But you work with the available data and try to find a model that best explains the data.

    A track record has older results and newer results. McLellan’s older results buy him a lot of leeway because success at that level is rare for coaches. (Sullivan will be able to coach for decades based on his Cup wins.) But now we have recent results that conflict with older results. His teams have been out of the playoffs for 3 out of the past 4 seasons. Any coach with that kind of recent record would be under scrutiny. DeBoer has been fired twice and he’s only made the playoffs in 4 of his 10 seasons coaching. But he’s managed 2 Finals appearances out of 3 of those opportunities. McLellan has made the playoffs 7 out of 10 seasons but has yet to make the Finals.

    Marc Crawford and Bob Hartley both won Cups with COL. Crawford missed the playoffs in his last 5 coaching seasons. Hartley missed the playoffs in 4 of his last 5 coaching seasons.

    So here’s what I know.

    Coaching tenures are typically short. About 2/3rds of tenures are 3 years or less. Those that go longer than 3 are likely to have playoff success (i.e., reaching the Finals in the first 3 seasons) or are likely to end after or during their fourth season.

    Not making the playoffs costs coaches jobs. Doing worse than last season costs coaches jobs.

    Coaches take their teams to Finals early in their tenure. It’s much less likely that it will happen 4 years or later if it hasn’t happened in 3 years or before.

    Coaches with a near .500 P% after 3 seasons don’t take their teams to the Finals (exception, MacTavish and he was at .563, not that near .500).

    I’m not personally invested in McLellan getting fired. He may be a good coach. It’s just that his record here is bad. And his special teams. And his player development. And his roster decisions. And his lineup blender… But you’re right. It’s quite possible he comes back based on the signals. (I think people advocating patience are citing WPG and Maurice. That guy is remarkable for how long a coaching run he’s had given how little success he’s brought to his teams: 4 playoff appearances in 15 seasons.) If that happens, the club can’t be serious about winning short term. I think coaches have a shelf life with any club and McLellan’s reached his with the Oilers. Coaches succeed early or run out of ideas and time. Players buy in early or run out of belief systems and esprit de corps. You can only change the players so often.

    I see that you’re steadfast, so I’ll mind my own business when you post on this topic from now on. The board benefits from different perspectives after all.

  131. Doug McLachlan says:

    SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo!:
    JimmyV1965,

    Two things:

    1) Pray that Ottawa wins the lottery (after the Oilers of course).

    2) Pray that Klefbom is cleared to workout before the draft.

    There’s a big chance that Ottawa is about to do something silly and one of the best dmen in the game is going to be available.

    I love Karlsson and if one knew that he would be prepared to sign a long-term deal that the Oilers could afford (which I’m not sure we are in a position to do) then a Klefbom and 2019 1st might make sense. Just don’t see it happening.

  132. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    godot10: They were 18th out of 30 in PK last year….I don’t think that is above average.

    Take away the first month of the season, they were 24th in PK the rest of the way.

    – they were 10th in goals allowed and 4th in pp. good to great special teams last year

  133. Alpine says:

    I know Russell would prefer to stay in AB for whatever reasons aside from the obvious Being Home angle. But would he waive for VAN? They have tons of space, they could potentially like another vet D back there while their kids develop (they don’t have many kids on D as it is).

    This is only really works if Tanev and/or Edler are on the move this summer. Russell hasn’t won a Cup but VAN might be good in the last year of his contract. I suspect the lack of a ring will make it difficult to get him or Sekera to waive as only rebuilding teams will be able to take them on.

  134. boopronger says:

    This team is far closer to a stanley with Mcdavid and nuge as top 2 centers with Karlsson on D then with mcdavid and Drai top 2 centers with whoever on D. This defense is nowhere near good enough. People always talk how impossible it is to get a guy like Karlsson because the GM that has him would be insane to trade him, but the opportunity arises and people would pass?

  135. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux: – they were 10th in goals allowed and 4th in pp. good to great special teams last year

    Talbot’s 4v5 SV% last year was .879

    If you dig into it a little you’ll see that Godot was right.

    Talbot’s 4v5 SV% Oct 1 2016 – Dec 1 2016 = .919 (that’s hotter than the Sun)
    Talbot’s 4v5 SV% Dec 1 2106 – April 15 2017 = .853 (below NHL average)

    Talbot’s crazy Oct/Nov masked a poor PK in the 16/17 season.

  136. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Jethro Tull:
    Woodguy v2.0,

    That 06-07 roster was quality.Eric Lindros?Nobody over 60pts, but balance, baby, balance.I would argue they didn’t out perform, they performed exactly how they were supposed to.

    Oh, and I believe there was one coach you omitted from the 50-50 club – Head coach of the San Jose Sharks, 2008/09 and 2009/10 seasons, 53 and 51 wins respectively.I forget his name or what happened to him.

    Joe Q, if he’s fired.

    1st 2 seasons that McLellan took over from Wilson (who had 49 and 51 wins the two years previous for SJS) and then The Todd Effect took over. 🙂

    Yeah, Tippett could make Chicken Soup out of Chicken Shit imo.

  137. YKOil says:

    russ99: You’re making an assumption that the current or replacement coach/GM/staff don’t value what Russell and Sekera bring to the table, when it’s quite obvious that they would.

    And Lucic is untradable without a worse player/contract coming back. I’d rather get him to stay in Edmonton in the summer and work with a nutritionist, strength and flexibility coach and a skating coach and keeping a player who could bounce back than taking on someone else’s garbage that we have no idea if they’ll fit and will have to bury in the minors eventually.

    I’d value this “trading the NMC guys” talk much more if the base reasoning behind it wasn’t “Don’t trade sweet baby Nuge and dreamy Klef”.

    Value at what cost? In terms of LHD, Klef and Nurse are cheaper for the minutes they play, are better value for the minutes they play and have far more upside than either Sekera or Russell, and I expect this to remain true after Nurse signs.

    Spending $18-19+ million on four LHD is not good roster management. Neither is waiting another year imo, My expectations is that cap growth will be stagnant after the big gain this summer and that
    this will conflict with the Oiler’s cap structure (they tend to need to use 1st round picks to fill-out the roster and they come with those pesky bonus issues).

    You can get around this, in a fashion, with a bridge deal for Nurse but that is a double edged sword – bridge deal allows for disposing of assets as a more leisurely pace but at the risk of Nurse – or the market for him – blowing up. Longer term deal costs more but pressures the Cap.

    Either way there is also the issue of having cash to secure a decent free agent if one comes available or paying for Pulju if he blows up and is the RW of our dreams.

    Wait the year and every other GM will know the Oiler’s Cap flex is zero and they will adjust their offers accordingly – we all know how well PC does when he feels like he just HAS to do something.

    All in all, better to trade one now while there is Cap flex. The team doesn’t need Eberle fire-sale levels of Cap flex but it does need some(more).

    Lowetide, in an Athletic article covers a decent range of trade possibilities re: Lucic. I would not be surprised if any such trade involved retained salary or a bad contract coming back. Would also expect that a trade would come down AFTER the years bonus is paid out but a trade isn’t automatically a loss or a bridge too far. I would agree with anyone who said it is a hard trade to make – especially this summer given term – but that is also why I suspect the play to be made revolves around Sekera.

    Lucic’s nutritionist is his wife. She is well qualified by all accounts. I expect him to try hard to reshape his game. He needs, at least, a half-stride back imo to be able to play in a speedier NHL. I do expect some bounce back regardless of anything else. Still a ridiculously limiting contract that needs to be off-loaded sooner than later.

    As for your last sentence, don’t be an ass, Nuge and Klef are better players and better long-term plays, for this team, than Russell or Sekera. Full-stop. If we had a replacement for Klef incoming I could maybe see moving him but that is simply not the case as it stands right now. I have no idea why you pulled out the “sweet-baby” and “dreamy” drivel for use in response to anything I said but please feel free to keep it to yourself.

  138. Scungilli Slushy says:

    The Sens have to pay the price for not being organized with Karlsson. He’s running out of contract, if they were too broke to keep him they should have moved sooner.

    To me that greatly reduces his return. Add that his next contract will be a whopper. He is the best offensive D in the game. I prefer Doughty’s lesser points and obsession with not getting beat individually.

    The Oilers need a two way D far more than a heavily O leaning one. Especially with the high offense forwards struggling with D play.

    If the Sens take a reasonable offer and Karlsson signs at 9M perhaps. 30 year old Karlsson at 10+ with heavy restrictions and 8 years is frightening.

  139. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Georges: You’re right about SJS. Sutter was fired after a bad start in 02-03 and Wilson eventually took over. They’ve been in the playoffs every season since 97-98 except for Sutter’s last year and McLellan’s last year. And, yes, they’ve never won the Cup in 20 seasons. And only one Finals appearance under DeBoer.

    The team finished first in the league in McLellan’s first 3 seasons and made the semis twice, winning one and losing eight in that round.

    All of that looks good and promising and counts. Very few coaches open their career with that level of success. It guarantees longevity because people will assume the HC had a big part in that. He has a very good record, he’s probably a good coach.

    What I’m saying about not moving the needle may seem harsh but it’s also true. Wilson and DeBoer both .600+ winning percentages with the club. The regular season is just a stepping stone to the playoffs.

    Wilson made the playoffs every season and got 10 playoff wins in his best year. DeBoer has made the playoffs every season and got 14 playoff wins in his best year. McLellan made the playoffs in 6 out of 7 seasons; his max was 9 playoff wins. Wilson had 28 playoff wins in 4 seasons. DeBoer has 16 playoff wins in 2 seasons. McLellan had 30 playoff wins in 7 seasons.

    So, under McLellan, did the team outperform his predecessor or his successor? If all we’re going on is winning?

    That’s why I used the term babysat. Maybe harsh. But I only care about his SJS record in light of what’s happened in EDM. Let’s say DeBoer’s tenure was much worse than it’s been. That would tell in McLellan’s favour. Or if McLellan’s tenure here had a more successful trajectory. But you work with the available data and try to find a model that best explains the data.

    A track record has older results and newer results. McLellan’s older results buy him a lot of leeway because success at that level is rare for coaches. (Sullivan will be able to coach for decades based on his Cup wins.) But now we have recent results that conflict with older results. His teams have been out of the playoffs for 3 out of the past 4 seasons. Any coach with that kind of recent record would be under scrutiny. DeBoer has been fired twice and he’s only made the playoffs in 4 of his 10 seasons coaching. But he’s managed 2 Finals appearances out of 3 of those opportunities. McLellan has made the playoffs 7 out of 10 seasons but has yet to make the Finals.

    Marc Crawford and Bob Hartley both won Cups with COL. Crawford missed the playoffs in his last 5 coaching seasons. Hartley missed the playoffs in 4 of his last 5 coaching seasons.

    So here’s what I know.

    Coaching tenures are typically short. About 2/3rds of tenures are 3 years or less. Those that go longer than 3 are likely to have playoff success (i.e., reaching the Finals in the first 3 seasons) or are likely to end after or during their fourth season.

    Not making the playoffs costs coaches jobs. Doing worse than last season costs coaches jobs.

    Coaches take their teams to Finals early in their tenure. It’s much less likely that it will happen 4 years or later if it hasn’t happened in 3 years or before.

    Coaches with a near .500 P% after 3 seasons don’t take their teams to the Finals (exception, MacTavish and he was at .563, not that near .500).

    I’m not personally invested in McLellan getting fired. He may be a good coach. It’s just that his record here is bad. And his special teams. And his player development. And his roster decisions. And his lineup blender… But you’re right. It’s quite possible he comes back based on the signals. (I think people advocating patience are citing WPG and Maurice. That guy is remarkable for how long a coaching run he’s had given how little success he’s brought to his teams: 4 playoff appearances in 15 seasons.) If that happens, the club can’t be serious about winning short term. I think coaches have a shelf life with any club and McLellan’s reached his with the Oilers. Coaches succeed early or run out of ideas and time. Players buy in early or run out of belief systems and esprit de corps. You can only change the players so often.

    I see that you’re steadfast, so I’ll mind my own business when you post on this topic from now on. The board benefits from different perspectives after all.

    I think McL is a good coach. I don’t think he is for this roster and org. I have appreciated his verbal self control after the stuff we’ve seen which often was unprofessional.

    I think Boudreau might also be a good fit, not sure of his P% etc.

    I think they need a disciplinarian but also a player’s coach, like Slats was. Somebody that bonds with the players and bonds them to together. I don’t read that from Todd. Perhaps too much in his own head.

  140. JimmyV1965 says:

    SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo!:
    JimmyV1965,

    Two things:

    1) Pray that Ottawa wins the lottery (after the Oilers of course).

    2) Pray that Klefbom is cleared to workout before the draft.

    There’s a big chance that Ottawa is about to do something silly and one of the best dmen in the game is going to be available.

    I don’t know for sure, but it sounds like Karlsson wants out. They may have no choice but to trade him.

  141. Georges says:

    Jethro Tull,

    How much do you think I have invested in this hockey thing? Like you, I imagine, it’s a diversion from more complicated and challenging pursuits. I wouldn’t recognize a salted caramel stout if it walked up and bit my droopy cigarette butt end. Completely incapable of handcrafting one. The perceptive bit is why would you link me to hockey reference when all I do on this topic is dissect coaching records? Is there another place where that data is available?

    “OK, to work: So TMac inherited a team that should have made the playoffs with or without him in SJ. You predicted this team making the finals last year. So why, if TMac isn’t responsible for a team doing well, is he responsible for a team doing badly?”

    Cool. You’ve convinced me. He owns all of his record. That was simple. He’s a 10 year coach with 7 playoff appearances and 0 Finals appearances. He had a remarkable .637 P% with SJS. He made the playoffs in an astounding 6 of his 7 seasons there. He made the Conference Finals twice in his first 3 seasons and won one game total in those rounds. He has a .506 P% with EDM. He has made the playoffs once out of 3 seasons here. He has missed the playoffs in 3 of his last 4 coaching seasons. He won some World Championship thingy in there somewhere. He can own all of that. He’s responsible for all of it. The mostly good part belongs to the fans of San Jose and World Championship thingies. The mostly bad part belongs to the fans of the Edmonton Oilers and the North American team that lost to Sweden.

    “Goalposts, straw man”: internet speak… yuck… skip…

    “Does it show he implemented a winning program?” to clarify asks did he take a losing team and make it a winning one. I was pointing out he didn’t need to do that in SJS but he did need to do that in EDM. He didn’t have a turnaround on his resume when he got here. That’s what I meant. Whatever systems he implemented in SJS are all on him. The team was winning and kept on winning and kept on winning… in the regular season.

    I would contrast this to Terry Murray and Darryl Sutter in LAK, a name you dropped earlier. Murray went .616 and .598 in the two seasons before he was fired. He lost in the first round both times.

    Sutter took over for the last 49 games of 2011-12. He won the Cup that year, took the team to the semi’s the next year and won the Cup again the following year. I’m not asking you to prove anything about McLellan. I’m just showing you an example of moving the needle on what you inherit. And pointing out that maybe McLellan didn’t move the needle with what he inherited with SJS in quite the same way as Sutter did with LAK.

    You’re absolutely right about a personal dislike biasing research. I’ll cease and desist looking into McLellan’s past, present, and future here forward. The Oilers could lose out. Maybe the pieces fall into place after that. Maybe not. Who knows?

    I hope I’ve cleared up the You are what your record says you are inconsistency in my thinking. Again, you’re right. Thank you for pointing it out. McLellan owns all of it. He gets all the SJS success and failure. He gets all the EDM success and failure. I feel better on this front.

    My arguments are better summarized in my response to kinger. Your summary of my arguments is funny looking. Is that how I come across? Sad! This is the kind of stuff godot gets thrown at him but he trademarked #ThoroughlyMediocreCoach a long, long time ago.

    Maybe you should hand craft a Salted Caramel Stout from the hockey reference data you pointed me to to get a better feel for how coaching careers go. Hint: there’s almost always a cigarette butt end inside.

  142. Rondo says:

    Erik Karlsson first 8 years will be better thanhis next 8 yrs. His best yrs are behind him given his injuries.

  143. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Bag of Pucks:
    Fully agree that Chiarelli’s biggest failing is contract management. Even when he gets valuable cap space back in trade, he immediately blunts that win by negotiating inflated contracts elsewhere. He’s traded for value contracts, but when’s the last time he negotiated one?

    Yes he has a history of bleeding elite skill where his name is on the contract whether he thought it was smart or was pressured, and being overly sentimental in contracts.

    He should have signed Leon first. Leon has no right to use McD as a benchmark. As history repeatedly shows giving dollars bas d on single playoff performances never works out for the team.

  144. Scungilli Slushy says:

    JimmyV1965: I don’t know for sure, but it sounds like Karlsson wants out. They may have no choice but to trade him.

    I’m sure he does , one of the only orgs goofier than the Oilers.

  145. OmJo says:

    The Jets are going to be a fun team to watch in the playoffs….

  146. dustrock says:

    Rondo:
    Erik Karlsson first 8 years will be better thanhis next 8 yrs. His best yrs are behind him given his injuries.

    I agree. Just depends on how good his next 8 years will be and the acquisition cost because even an 80% Karlsson is pretty darn good.

  147. sliderule says:

    There are things I don’t like about TMac and his system’s but what I consider the worst is the lack of effort at home.
    Mr Katz better think about that when the good old boys tell him to stay the course.
    The excitement of the new building will fade and if oiler tier one fans don’t see an honest effort maybe they will vote to join most of us as tier two or three fans.

  148. OmJo says:

    ArmchairGM: OmJo

    That’s true. But I think a reason McDavid does that, not only just because he can, but because he has to.

    With a defenceman who can pass like Karlsson, that gives him just another tool to work with to generate offense. And those passes will also go to players who aren’t Connor McDavid and can’t skate from one end of the rink to the other in 0.000000001 milliseconds.

    Then there’s Karlsson on the PP. Karlsson has 18PP points this season, the entire Oilers defense collectively has 15 (this is from 10 players). McDavid has 18. Nuge and Draisaitl combined have 17. The rest of the fowards still on the team have 22 combined PP points.

    He helps this team a lot IMO. Still wouldn’t trade Drasiaitl for him 1 for 1.

    Edit: incorrectly said McDavid has 15 power play points

  149. Mr DeBakey says:

    Lowetide: Cap space and years under control.

    And the Totems’ expansion draft.

  150. OmJo says:

    Rondo:
    Erik Karlsson first 8 years will be better thanhis next 8 yrs. His best yrs are behind him given his injuries.

    He’s only 27. In his current “bad” season he has a .87 P/Gp average. Still higher than his career P/Gp average (.82). He will be 35 years old in 8 years. That’ll be near the end of his prime, maybe (European players seem to be able to play forever) but I don’t think anybody can say with confidence that he will be a bad player at 35 years old.

    Pronger was 31 when he lead this team to the cup final, no? 36 years old when he did the same for Philadelphia. Also, please note I am not comparing the two players skill wise. They are different defencemen of course, they play(ed) different styles. Just using Pronger as an example of a good old defenceman, he was the first to come to mind.

    I just don’t think Karlsson will drop in performance at 30 to the same extent that Lucic has done.

    Edit: From 2014, http://www.cbc.ca/news/when-nhl-players-peak-hockey-metrics-1.2646054

    Defencemen, the co-authors report:

    Improve and decline more slowly than forwards and do so very symmetrically.
    Perform within 90 per cent of their peak from 24 to 34 years old (two years longer than forwards).
    26 is their most common age, with 25 and 27 very similar.

    Karlsson at 90% is better than 90% of the defencemen in this league lol.

  151. OmJo says:

    JimmyV1965: Th GM hires the scouts so he’s ultimately responsible for scouting IMO. I think Gretzky was the man directly responsible though.

    Fair point. The GM is definitely responsible for the scouts.

    Although I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s ultimately responsible for scouting per se. IMO the scouts are. When the scouts shit the bed, the GM isn’t fired for it, they are (at first, GM usually follows but for many reasons not purely scouting ineptitude)

  152. ArmchairGM says:

    dustrock:
    Regarding the draft, I have a hard time separating out the defencemen, but it’s fascinating to me that almost every list I see of people ranking the d-men, Smith is last.

    Boqvist/Bouchard/Hughes/Dobson get moved around, but Smith consistently comes in 5th.

    Is it because he’s in the WHL?His scoring this season has been historically good for the WHL, better than Provorov at the same age.

    I think it’s reasonable to consider him last in that group. Why would he be higher?

  153. Harpers Hair says:

    JimmyV1965,

    Vegas has the cap space, prospects, draft picks and no state income tax. Book it.

  154. leadfarmer says:

    Harpers Hair:
    JimmyV1965,

    Vegas has the cap space,prospects, draft picksand no state income tax. Book it.

    You mean like Draisaitl is Colborne version II book it?

  155. Harpers Hair says:

    leadfarmer: You mean like Draisaitl is Colborne version II book it?

    No different than that.

  156. Jethro Tull says:

    Georges,

    1) Thanks for a constructive reply.

    2) Godot gets thimgs thrown at him because he repeats a vitriolic opinion that cost him nothing, like Cato the Elder finished every address with “Carthage must be destroyed!” Kind of loses meaning after a while.

    3) Hand crafted beer reference = fly in the ointment, but then you already knew that, eh?

    4) Great argument except for when you got nasty, i.e. Never researching McLellan again. Now I can’t tell if the whole post is sarcastic, which has me holding back from honestly reseaching an answer.

  157. leadfarmer says:

    I hope Hall gets the Hart. Killing it with another 9 game point streak after his ridiculous point streak earlier this season. 17 points over those 9 games including the 4th tonight and with minimal supporting cast as opposed to Giroux, McKinnon and Malkin

  158. OmJo says:

    Watching other teams score on one-timers makes me sad.

  159. JimmyV1965 says:

    OmJo: That’s true. But I think a reason McDavid does that, not only just because he can, but because he has to.

    With a defenceman who can pass like Karlsson, that gives him just another tool to work with to generate offense. And those passes will also go to players who aren’t Connor McDavid and can’t skate from one end of the rink to the other in 0.000000001 milliseconds.

    Then there’s Karlsson on the PP. Karlsson has 18PP points this season, the entire Oilers defense collectively has 15 (this is from 10 players). McDavid has 15. Nuge and Draisaitl combined have 17. The rest of the fowards still on the team have 22 combined PP points.

    He helps this team a lot IMO. Still wouldn’t trade Drasiaitl for him 1 for 1.

    Totally agree with all of this. Frickin love Karlsson and think he has six or seven great years ahead of him. But no way I trade Drai straight across.

  160. pts2pndr says:

    leadfarmer,

    Lucic at 3-4 million is a good deal for Edmonton. It is short sighted IMO to give up valuable assets ie 2nd round draft choice and retain salary to turn around and bring back a same skill forward with a different name for 4 million. Assuming Lucic covers the 3rd line left wing position while playing a physical game and occasionaly moving up the line up due injury there is no reason to move him. It may not be ideal but once in a hole it is wise to stop digging! If he can be moved without bleeding assets do so.

  161. JimmyV1965 says:

    Harpers Hair:
    JimmyV1965,

    Vegas has the cap space,prospects, draft picksand no state income tax. Book it.

    And unfortunately I think you’re right as well. If I was a betting man, I’m putting my money on Vegas. Dare to dream though.

  162. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    leadfarmer:
    I hope Hall gets the Hart.Killing it with another 9 game point streak after his ridiculous point streak earlier this season.17 points over those 9 games including the 4th tonight and with minimal supporting cast as opposed to Giroux, McKinnon and Malkin

    Tonight might be sealing the deal for him. What a snipe on Lundqvist on the penalty shot.

    If he gets his 40th before season end, and 95 points and a playoff berth how do you deny him?

    Jersey announcers refer to him as the unstoppable force.

    Back in the day we used to talk around here about how difficult it is to get jacks and kings. When you have them you don’t trade them. And you add your 6s and 7s and 8s.

    Oilers had 2 kings and an ace and gave one king away.

  163. godot10 says:

    Scungilli Slushy: I think McL is a good coach. I don’t think he is for this roster and org.

    What do you mean you don’t think he is for this roster. This roster was overhauled and custom built for him. Everyone except Nugent-Hopkins and Klefbom was acquired or began playing during McLellan’s tenure.

  164. godot10 says:

    Jethro Tull:
    Georges,

    2) Godot gets thimgs thrown at him because he repeats a vitriolic opinion that cost him nothing, like Cato the Elder finished every address with “Carthage must be destroyed!” Kind of loses meaning after a while.

    My opinion of the dementor was vitriolic (and correct). My opinion of the Klingon was never vitriolic. Just correct and melancholic.

  165. Harpers Hair says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker): Tonight might be sealing the deal for him. What a snipe on Lundqvist on the penalty shot.

    If he gets his 40th before season end, and 95 points and a playoff berth how do you deny him?

    Jersey announcers refer to him as the unstoppable force.

    Back in the day we used to talk around here about how difficult it is to get jacks and kings. When you have them you don’t trade them. And you add your 6s and 7s and 8s.

    Oilers had 2 kings and an ace and gave one king away.

    Hall and MacKinnon both willing their teams into the playoffs Should be a dandy.

  166. Georges says:

    Jethro Tull:
    Georges,

    1) Thanks for a constructive reply.

    2) Godot gets thimgs thrown at him because he repeats a vitriolic opinion that cost him nothing, like Cato the Elder finished every address with “Carthage must be destroyed!” Kind of loses meaning after a while.

    3) Hand crafted beer reference = fly in the ointment, but then you already knew that, eh?

    4) Great argument except for when you got nasty, i.e. Never researching McLellan again. Now I can’t tell if the whole post is sarcastic, which has me holding back from honestly reseaching an answer.

    Totally serious. Nothing left to say. If the historical data holds up, he’s done this season or next. If it doesn’t, he’s taking the team to the Cup. Que sera, sera. I do hope that definite opinions aren’t formed on young players playing under a struggling coach. That’s it.

  167. OmJo says:

    pts2pndr:
    leadfarmer,

    Lucic at 3-4 million is a good deal for Edmonton. It is short sighted IMO to give up valuable assets ie 2nd round draft choice and retain salary to turn around and bring back a same skill forward with a different name for 4 million. Assuming Lucic covers the 3rd line left wing position while playing a physical game and occasionaly moving up the line up due injury there is no reason to move him. It may not be ideal but once in a hole it is wise to stop digging! If he can be moved without bleeding assets do so.

    Lucic has 1 goal in 2018. 1 goal in his last 44 games. More than half the season.

    While I don’t think he will only score 2 goals next season, he’s not even worth $3M IMO unless he rebounds greatly. The question is, will he?

    It’s not just the production, he’s been sub par for much of the season in general. Unless he rebounds he’s not even a 3LW. If he doesn’t produce and hit he doesn’t contribute much else to the team (for example he doesn’t kill penalties). The puck dies on his stick, he has questionable defensive coverage, he’s slow and just drags down the lines he plays on.

    I’m not trying to hate on him, I’m just commenting on what he’s done this season which was supposed to be his rebound season (and is- well, was 5v5 for the first half of the season).

  168. OmJo says:

    OmJo:
    The Jets are going to be a fun team to watch in the playoffs….

    Why does every team I like lose? 🙁

  169. rickithebear says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux:
    leadfarmer,

    – I hope your wrong about Pool…

    – Next year, in the top-9: CMD,Drai, RNH, Lucic, Pool, Strome, Jar, Kailer, NewGuy

    – That’s a pretty versatile top-9 IMO, with lots of skill, lots of C’s, different attributes..Bring in Cami+ and Rattie/Sleppy/Caggs/Aberg/Kass as either plugs or spot duty with skill and/or 4rth liners

    – On D: Sek/Klef/Larsson are all going to be better.Nurse is at least a top-4D now.Benning is solid as 3RHD.A Bear is lurking. Auvitu provides neat options.Russel still works as 4/5

    – Someone is going to get the chance to get more reps as the 2nd , and steal job from Talbot

    – Coach is going to have to coach up, or bring in new coach, or put him on notice, and he gets Mike Johnstened.. That worked out well for Pitts at the quarter mark…

    – Sh$t year: make some moves, ask hard questions, get better: it’s hockey, make the playoffs

    Repetitive Cup core for conf finals teams dating back 20 years.
    1. HD def system coach.
    Tmac last year? YES
    Todd Eakins this year? Embarrassingly bad!

    2. Top 10 HD goalie
    2 yrs NYR
    2 yrs EDM
    This year suffered the Eakins affect like dubnyk.
    But superior performance compared to Dubnyk.

    3. 3+ Top 40 HD Dmen
    Larsson Top 5 vs 1st comp with top 60 HD Dman.
    Sekera Top 10 2 nd comp
    Ouvitu top 60
    Russell Elite 0% corsi dman. HD results reflective of partner.

    Klefbom Bottom 30
    Nurse bottom 10

    4. Top team Cummulative 125 fwds (16g 39p)
    McDavid 2.64
    Draisatl 1.74
    RNH 1.26
    Miss 20g and 45p from Lucic, Eberle, Maroon

    5. Bottom 6 EVG scoring
    Strome 80gm 11evg
    Puljujarvi 63gm 10evg
    Khaira 67gm 10evg
    Slepyshev 48gm 6evg
    Kassian 72gm 7evg

    6. +ve goal diff special teams.
    Coaching

  170. rickithebear says:

    Harpers Hair: Hall and MacKinnon both willing their teams into the playoffs Should be a dandy.

    I really like halls transition from fwd to dman and Goalie on the same shift.
    Especially how quick he changes into goalie equipment on the fly.

  171. HT Joe says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker): Oilers had 2 kings and an ace and gave one king away.

    Sure the Oilers gave away one of the kings, but based on the rumours and media character assassinations, Hall was probably one of those troubled-looking kings shoving a sword in his head. That’s not the type of king good orgs keep, right?

  172. Munny says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker),

    Would he be that player if he hadn’t been traded?

    For me I knew the trade was the right thing for both parties when Hall admitted In an interview that he didn’t like listening to coaches until he got to Jersey and was convinced otherwise.

    And how does the rest of the team act if this is the attitude of the King?

  173. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    Munny:
    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker),

    Would he be that player if he hadn’t been traded?

    For me I knew the trade was the right thing for both parties when Hall admitted In an interview that he didn’t like listening to coaches until he got to Jersey and was convinced otherwise.

    And how does the rest of the team act if this is the attitude of the King?

    That is taking his quote out of context.
    Young players mature eventually. If the Oilers’ brass were incapable of getting that growth and maturation out of him, that’s not all on Taylor Hall.

    Plus he was a king before this season. This season he is an ace. I don’t believe his season this year will be repeated. I think this is his magnum opus. 95pts and one Hart Trophy.

    But he will be a great, 75-80pt player for several more years until injuries slow him down.

  174. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    HT Joe: Sure the Oilers gave away one of the kings, but based on the rumours and media character assassinations, Hall was probably one of those troubled-looking kings shoving a sword in his head.That’s not the type of king good orgs keep, right?

    Right. So we trade our kings for rooks.

  175. OmJo says:

    Munny:
    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker),

    Would he be that player if he hadn’t been traded?

    For me I knew the trade was the right thing for both parties when Hall admitted In an interview that he didn’t like listening to coaches until he got to Jersey and was convinced otherwise.

    Why couldn’t he be that player here?

    There is no reason he couldn’t.

    The Oilers should have created the environment he is in now in New Jersey from the moment he was drafted.

    They didn’t. Instead, they gave him 4 different coaches, including a season and a half of Dallas Eakins.

  176. Scungilli Slushy says:

    OmJo: Why couldn’t he be that player here?

    There is no reason he couldn’t.

    The Oilers should have created the environment he is in now in New Jersey from the moment he was drafted.

    They didn’t. Instead, they gave him 4 different coaches, including a season and a half of Dallas Eakins.

    That strong willed (read the most talented juniors who had great success) don’t develop with the Oilers is an issue with the organization.

    Very few CMDs exist that come in humble and well adjusted. And step straight into the league and become top players.

    Young players are as unique as we all are here. The key is to take what they are, accept it, and make the most of what their potential is, and give them the time and context they need to reach that potential.

    Kind of like raising kids.They are kids.

  177. leadfarmer says:

    OmJo: Why couldn’t he be that player here?

    There is no reason he couldn’t.

    The Oilers should have created the environment he is in now in New Jersey from the moment he was drafted.

    They didn’t. Instead, they gave him 4 different coaches, including a season and a half of Dallas Eakins.

    Because we don’t have defensemen that could get him the puck. New Jersey saw Hall’s speed and built around it. We saw Mcdavids speed and said that’s way too fast

  178. godot10 says:

    Munny:
    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker),

    Would he be that player if he hadn’t been traded?

    For me I knew the trade was the right thing for both parties when Hall admitted In an interview that he didn’t like listening to coaches until he got to Jersey and was convinced otherwise.

    And how does the rest of the team act if this is the attitude of the King?

    Hall was exactly this player under Krueger. Hall and MacT brought Eakins in to fix him.

    If the OIlers had made the playoffs that year, Hall would have been a Hart candidate.

    But Lowe and MacT didn’t let Tambellini do anything at the deadline.

  179. HT Joe says:

    Munny:
    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker),

    Would he be that player if he hadn’t been traded?

    For me I knew the trade was the right thing for both parties when Hall admitted In an interview that he didn’t like listening to coaches until he got to Jersey and was convinced otherwise.

    And how does the rest of the team act if this is the attitude of the King?

    http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/taylor-says-he-didnt-listen-much-to-his-coaches-with-edmonton-oilers

    Hall said: “[NJ Coach Hynes has] probably given me the most accountability that any coach I had in Edmonton. I really think that’s been good for me personally. Just in Edmonton, I really didn’t want to talk to coaches. I didn’t really want to have dialogue with coaches. I just wanted to play. And a lot of guys are like that.”

    In the linked article, Staples goes on to say that “Not talking to a coach, not having a dialogue, also means not listening to the coach”, but I respectfully disagree with this assessment. Hall does not say that he wasn’t talking or listening to his coaches in Edmonton – he said that he didn’t want to. Big difference. If I had to listen to Eakins (for instance) yapping about how much smarter he is than any other coach ever, I wouldn’t have wanted to have dialogues with him either.

    When I read Hall’s quote as it was said (and not as Staples interpreted it), my takeaway is that Hall enjoys talking with his current head coach, much moreso than he enjoyed talking with his coaches in Edmonton. But that doesn’t match the drum the media has been banging about Hall ever since the trade (Staples goes on to cite the quote as “an interesting piece in the puzzle about why Taylor Hall was traded”).

    I didn’t like the trade when it happened, I didn’t like that some members of the media were taking stabs at Hall before and after the trade, and I still like neither. I hope Hall makes it to the playoffs and has a strong playoff performance.

  180. rickithebear says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker): Tonight might be sealing the deal for him. What a snipe on Lundqvist on the penalty shot.

    If he gets his 40th before season end, and 95 points and a playoff berth how do you deny him?

    Jersey announcers refer to him as the unstoppable force.

    Back in the day we used to talk around here about how difficult it is to get jacks and kings. When you have them you don’t trade them. And you add your 6s and 7s and 8s.

    Oilers had 2 kings and an ace and gave one king away.

    Oh card references.
    360 fwds divided by 13 cards is 27.7 fwds.
    Halls avg last 2 seasons with Edm
    67gm 20g 31A 51p is 60-65 Forwards.
    He was a queen.
    15 games without hall #13-17 fwds
    Uno cards.
    We got 67gm queen and 15 gm Uno card.

    Cut the bull shit!
    This is an analytical site.
    He was no Ace or King.

    Lucic looked awful for the season.
    Do not train with Terrell Owens.

  181. HT Joe says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker): Right. So we trade our kings for rooks.

    Sorry, my sarcasm wasn’t clear (I agree with your statement – I hate the trade)

  182. godot10 says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker): Right. So we trade our kings for rooks.

    If you make a Queen sacrifice (a la Bobby Fischer), you had better win.

  183. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    HT Joe: Sorry, my sarcasm wasn’t clear (I agree with your statement – I hate the trade)

    No no, it was clear. That’s why I went along in the same vein and said we trade our kings for rooks.

  184. VanIsleOil says:

    Looking at the 2014 1st round draft picks at the top of LT’s blog. The Bruins absolutely hit the jackpot with Pastrnak at the 25th pick!!

    II think Drai today, is the best forward in that 1st round. The Oil need another successful pick like that in June. Maybe Lotto Lowe will get really lucky one more time

  185. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    godot10: If you make a Queen sacrifice (a la Bobby Fischer), you had better win.

    And this raises the bar on the analogy.

  186. pts2pndr says:

    OmJo: Lucic has 1 goal in 2018. 1 goal in his last 44 games. More than half the season.

    While I don’t think he will only score 2 goals next season, he’s not even worth $3M IMO unless he rebounds greatly. The question is, will he?

    It’s not just the production, he’s been sub par for much of the season in general. Unless he rebounds he’s not even a 3LW. If he doesn’t produce and hit he doesn’t contribute much else to the team (for example he doesn’t kill penalties). The puck dies on his stick, he has questionable defensive coverage, he’s slow and just drags down the lines he plays on.

    I’m not trying to hate on him, I’m just commenting on what he’s done this season which was supposed to be his rebound season (and is- well, was 5v5 for the first half of the season).

    I do not disagree with what you say re his performance this year. He does not have the requisite skills to play a man to man defense. Played in a different system I believe he can and will rebound. There have been several players that have been totally miscast this year. The coach continually tries to pound square pegs into round holes! This team was put together to play an aggresive in your face style. The coach has them playing a style they are not suited to play. They no longer have a team identity. I am fully in agreement with godot and have noticed some old school methods of keeping people in line that are arcaic and do not work with todays atheletes.

  187. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    rickithebear: Oh card references.
    360 fwds divided by 13 cards is 27.7 fwds.
    Halls avg last 2 seasons with Edm
    67gm 20g 31A 51p is 60-65 Forwards.
    He was a queen.
    15 games without hall #13-17 fwds
    Uno cards.
    We got 67gm queen and 15 gm Uno card.

    Cut the bull shit!
    This is an analytical site.
    He was no Ace or King.

    Lucic looked awful for the season.
    Do not train with Terrell Owens.

    Ricki, not bullshit. LT used ‘jacks’ and ‘kings’ as his descriptor term, probably because calling a player a ‘queen’ would have other implications.

    So the choice was jack or king.

    Hall a king
    Draisaitl a king
    Nuge a jack
    McDavid an ace

    your mileage may vary.

    Hall is an ace this year, but historically has been more like a king.

    No need to get hot under the collar there, ricki.

  188. jake70 says:

    If this is the new normal for Hall, I am gonna cry. I just saw his penalty shot on hilites as I typed this…..yep, I am gonna cry.

  189. rickithebear says:

    Belichek and me.
    Baseline repeatability under a coached system.
    A player that can be trusted to Perform.

    Imagine Taylor stay in zone, defend, get more pocession.
    Give up less goals, get more goals.

    Has anyone looked at standard of reffing as an Oiler and as a NJD.

  190. OmJo says:

    pts2pndr: I do not disagree with what you say re his performance this year. He does not have the requisite skills to play a man to man defense. Played in a different system I believe he can and will rebound. There have been several players that have been totally miscast this year. The coach continually tries to pound square pegs into round holes! This team was put together to play an aggresive in your face style. The coach has them playing a style they are not suited to play. They no longer have a team identity. I am fully in agreement with godot and have noticed some old school methods of keeping people in line that are arcaic and do not work with todays atheletes.

    Agreed. Coaching decisions are, for me, the most frustrating part of this disaster of a season.

    It is just a group of players, there’s no structure to this team at all.

    As a coach, can you hold your players – *some of your players* – accountable while refusing to hold yourself accountable? TMac would say yes to that.

  191. OmJo says:

    rickithebear: Lucic looked awful for the season.
    Do not train with Terrell Owens.

    If we take one lesson from this season, this should be it.

    And following this, it should be Do not train your shot with Ron Johnson.

    (I kid.)

  192. HT Joe says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker): No no, it was clear. That’s why I went along in the same vein and said we trade our kings for rooks.

    thanks for clarifying… I saw you moving the analogy from cards to chess and got worried. 🙂

  193. Munny says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker): That is taking his quote out of context.
    Young players mature eventually. If the Oilers’ brass were incapable of getting that growth and maturation out of him, that’s not all on Taylor Hall.

    Plus he was a king before this season. This season he is an ace. I don’t believe his season this year will be repeated. I think this is his magnum opus. 95pts and one Hart Trophy.

    But he will be a great, 75-80pt player for several more years until injuries slow him down.

    “He’s probably given me the most accountability that any coach I had in Edmonton,” Hall said. “I really think that’s been good for me personally. Just in Edmonton, I really didn’t want to talk to coaches. I didn’t really want to have dialogue with coaches. I just wanted to play. And a lot of guys are like that.

    I dunno, seems pretty obvious to me, obviously your mileage varies. There’s resistance there to my ear and that will affect things.

    Either way, trades are a wake-up call and there’s some smoke in that signal. I think we’re seeing a better Hall and the trade has done him good, although agreed this is likely a peak year as far as the odds go.

  194. Munny says:

    Lol… thanks lads for taking this to chess and not Tarot.

  195. OmJo says:

    jake70:
    If this is the new normal for Hall, I am gonna cry.I just saw his penalty shot on hilites as I typed this…..yep, I am gonna cry.

    It’s everything Hall was in junior translating to the NHL.

    It’s what Hall was here, if here was a properly run organization.

    It’s one of many reasons why Chiarelli should be fired. Sadly, the damage has already been done. He’s put this team in a poor situation, reliant on prospects to save the franchise.

    Some things never change.

  196. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    Munny: “He’s probably given me the most accountability that any coach I had in Edmonton,” Hall said. “I really think that’s been good for me personally. Just in Edmonton, I really didn’t want to talk to coaches. I didn’t really want to have dialogue with coaches. I just wanted to play. And a lot of guys are like that.

    I dunno, seems pretty obvious to me, obviously your mileage varies.There’s resistance there to my ear and that will affect things.

    Either way, trades are a wake-up call and there’s some smoke in that signal.I think we’re seeing a better Hall and the trade has done him good, although agreed this is likely a peak year as far as the odds go.

    I believe he clarified that bit a couple of days later. And said that in Jersey the coaches and he engage in more dialogue. I am not aaying Hall did not need to mature. Just saying it’s not all on him that the coaches and he did not develop similar lines of communication here.

    And yes, the trade was likely a wakeup call for Hall. But he was a 50 in 45 and 80in 75pt player here, too, before all the losing got to everyone.

  197. HT Joe says:

    OmJo: It’s one of many reasons why Chiarelli should be fired. Sadly, the damage has already been done.

    Tonight:
    Hall with 2G, 2A (93 points in 75 GP –> 1.24 points per game vs. 1.29 ppg from McDavid)
    Barzal with 2G, 1A (82 points in 80 GP)
    Eberle with 2A (59 points in 79 GP)

  198. godot10 says:

    Taylor Hall and John Hynes last summer on Taylor’s breakup with Edmonton….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkST5-ZFHw

  199. rickithebear says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker): Ricki, not bullshit. LT used ‘jacks’ and ‘kings’ as his descriptor term, probably because calling a player a ‘queen’ would have other implications.

    So the choice was jack or king.

    Hall a king
    Draisaitl a king
    Nuge a jack
    McDavid an ace

    your mileage may vary.

    Hall is an ace this year, but historically has been more like a king.

    No need to get hot under the collar there, ricki.

    What does sexuality have to do with sport?

    You need players to perform at a high level and not miss games.

    RNH is a concern last 3 seasons
    66gm 17g 24a 41p
    12 evg 18 Eva 30 evp -4
    4ppg 6ppa 10ppp
    1shg 0sha 1shp
    Healthy PVP RNH is a beaut. Queen or jack
    16 games of uno card RNH matters.

    This is the week fam is in Nova Scotia at family home on Ross pt and private vineyard on marble mountain.
    Usually go with boys to special cigar event we’re cuban leaves are flown into Ont. And fresh hand rolled are smoked with a collection of very old men drinking the old country rum.

    But not available this year.
    4 days of cigars a year and Kaisered “gone”

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