Farm Workers 2018

The farm team is probably more important today than it was when the Edmonton Oilers arrived in the NHL, 1979. The 1979-80 Houston Apollos would eventually produce NHL players Charlie Huddy and Tom Roulston. The 2018-19 Bakersfield Condors are going to need to do at least as much, possibly more. All Condors photos by Mark Williams.

THE ATHLETIC!

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  • Brian ConacherAs in other areas of modern society, hockeys teams too have their generation gaps. This situation stood out on the Rochester team in 1965 which consisted of three groups: the veterans (had all resigned themselves to making the best of their minor league hockey careers), the young ones (who have stars in their eyes and are in the AHL for just a little time, or so they think) and the group somewhere in between (these players kept hoping that a break would come their way and they might get their chance in the “big tent”).

Conacher’s book The Way it Is remains one of the truly phenomenal pieces of hockey literature I’ve encountered (Conacher is a fascinating figure in hockey history). Conacher has written two books and they’re both golden. Only Scott Young himself has written two better in the game’s history (both co-authored with Punch Imlach). I do a Farm Workers every year. Last year’s is here. I haven’t cleaned it up and tweaked the format in years, so it has a little different look in 2018.

  • Men who are over 30 and come out of the minors to establish (or re-establish) themselves are pretty much a thing of the past. 

Condors 2017-18: Bakersfield used Ryan Hamilton (signed to an AHL deal) and the Oilers rode the final year of Mark Fayne’s deal (although they sent him to Springfield mid-season, Fayne’s contract rode all the way home). Eric Gryba is 29, has another year on his contract and Todd McLellan likes his ability to defend. I could see Gryba playing NHL hockey, for the Oilers, next season. Ryan Stanton and Brad Malone are 28 and hold contracts for next season. Both men, especially Malone, may have a pretty nice look at extended NHL employment next season.

The original Conacher thought remains as true as the North Star. Johnny Bower was (reportedly) 32 when he entered the nets for the Toronto Maple Leafs in 1958-59. The kind of career he enjoyed from that point forward is no longer available in the modern game. Too many jobs, scouts are too good.

  • Pretty much everyone who is in the AHL past (say) 21 has some issues and is going to do some meandering.

Condors 2017-18: Condors fans have seen Leon Draisaitl, Darnell Nurse and Jesse Puljujarvi in the last few seasons, but (mostly) for a brief time. Chances are Bakersfield fans won’t see Kailer Yamamoto for long, either.

This year’s 21+ group encountered so many hurdles the mind boggles. Ryan Mantha suffered an eye injury, and even though it sounds like everything will be fine by the fall, eye injuries are a difficult process. Ziyat Paigin bolted back to Russia in half the time it took to watch Dr. Zhivago (still a very long time) for reasons we know not. Ethan Bear and Caleb Jones, both 20, should be in this group a year from now. They represent the top end (imo) of the available prospects in Bakersfield, but still have some things to figure out.

  • If you haven’t established yourself as a prospect of interest by 22 you are in troubleThe players who have graduated to useful NHL careers have at least played some NHL games by the end of their entry level deals.

Condors 2017-18: Greg Chase, Ben Betker, Braden Christoffer and Kyle Platzer couldn’t move the needle in their third and final seasons of entry. The best players in the 21-25 group were Josh Currie (AHL contract) plus Ty Rattie and Keegan Lowe (UFA signings last summer). It isn’t supposed to work that way, and it isn’t on Chiarelli in this instance. We’re supposed to be talking about Yakimov and Marco Roy along with Platzer and the group above. The 2011 draft was very good for Edmonton, the club badly needed 2013 to duplicate (three NHL players). Looks like it might just be Nurse and then crickets.

  • Exceptions are college menPlaying 4 NCAA seasons means turning pro at 22, meaning a “late start” for some quality prospects. 

Condors 2017-18: Peter Chiarelli has been very aggressive in college procurement, with Matt Benning and Drake Caggiula grabbing NHL jobs basically out of the box after signing. Joe Gambardella had a pedestrian first year in the AHL but he finished well and could emerge as a legit prospect with a strong 2018-19. Dave Gust, an AHL-only contract who signed out of Ohio State University, showed enough skill to score 12 goals in 50 games on an offensively shy club.

Nick Ellis struggled in year two after a strong rookie campaign, Oilers have options so we’ll see if he returns. Patrick Russell had a strong second season in Bakersfield. I’ll be interested to see if the organization sees enough in him to bring Russell back. Shane Starrett spent most of his first pro campaign in the ECHL, sporting a .912 save percentage. Colin Larkin was added late and Cooper Marody was signed just this week, trumpeting another aggressive spring in college procurement. Marody should be among the top new arrivals in camp this fall, along with Yamamoto, Tyler Benson and William Lagesson. Marody is heading to Bakersfield, could play this week.

  • A large group of players on the current team could be described in the “tweener” division.

Condors 2017-18: Jujhar Khaira and Anton Slepyshev were in about the same spot a year ago, and maybe they will be again. Right now, Khaira is entering the final year of a real value contract and Slepyshev is an RFA who the Oilers were willing to deal not so many months ago. Their careers have taken unique paths since this time one year ago.

As for this year’s Condors, Ty Rattie, Joey Laleggia and Dillon Simpson would seem to fit the description, plus all of the AHL contracts and men like Patrick Russell and Grayson Downing. There might be some players there, in fact Rattie might get a one-way deal based on a strong late showing. I think Laleggia is going to bust a move to another organization, kind of like Brad Winchester did years ago. He needs a second opinion.

  • If we make a list of the minor league RFA’s each summer, we can probably as a group pick the cuts and be fairly closeThat 50 man list gets a haircut every summer.

Condors 2017-18:  Prospects separate themselves in that three year entry period, sometimes grabbing an extra year just to make sure. Last year, I wrote “as for RFA’s we can be fairly certain about, expect new cities for Anton Lander, Henrik Samuelsson, Bogdan Yakimov, Jere Sallinen, David Musil (who is already gone but still on the 50-man), Zach Pochiro and Eetu Laurikanen. Keepers? Jujhar Khaira, Iiro Pakarinen, Joey Laleggia, Griffin Reinhart, Dillon Simpson. That’s five keepers, and you might see the team cut bait on Pakarinen (but I doubt it).” Prospects really do separate themselves.

Among this year’s RFA’s, I’ll bet Nick Ellis and Patrick Russell get signed. It’s also fairly certain Kyle Platzer, Ben Betker and Braden Christoffer find their way to new cities by the fall. Ellis is a bit of a question mark because Edmonton could sign Stuart Skinner and turn him pro plus have to make a decision on Laurent Brossoit. I think the Oilers bring back Ellis.

  • For Rob Schremp fans, there’s exactly ONE pure offensive player who made it: Mike Walton

Condors 2017-18:  The longer a skill player (Rob Schremp) spends in the AHL, the less likely he’s going to be an NHL top 6F of note. The first-round picks go up in mere seconds, meaning they (Kailer Yamamoto) get earlier and more chances than lower picks (Kirill Maksimov, Ostap Safin). It’s always been this way. Mike Walton was disliked by his coach, Punch Imlach, for reasons. He won a Stanley with my Bruins, so he’s alright for me.

I’ve waited years for someone to bring this category to life again. Ty Rattie come on down. He has a chance to prove me wrong, bet there’s a one-way contract at around $800,000 available sometime this spring. Sign it, young man.

  • Daniel Cleary, Fernando Pisani and Jason Chimera became productive players in the toughest league on the planet. THEY are the stars in this study.

Condors 2017-18:  It’s true every year. I always fall into this trap, call it the Marc Pouliot blind spot. If your favorite AHL player spends more than 100 games in that league during his entry deal, pray he’s Cleary, Pisani or Chimera. He isn’t going to be a top 6F, or rather it’s quite unlikely. What does that mean to this group?

Ethan Bear might have enough skill to spend less than 100 games in the AHL, suspect Caleb Jones might take a little longer based on their rookie seasons. After that, Ty Rattie has received a late opportunity on a skill line and Joe Gambardella has a heartbeat.

This will be a stronger list next season, we’ll have more information on the matriculating defensemen, plus Yamamoto, Benson, Marody and others will make the forward group more substantial.

  • The future NHLERS are

Condors 2017-18: Last year I named Jesse Puljujarvi, Anton Slepyshev, Jujhar Khaira and Griffin Reinhart. This season, I’ll go with Ty Rattie and Ethan Bear, although the defender might spend another season in the minors.

LOWDOWN WITH LOWETIDE

A busy morning, we’ll probably get knocked out by a Peter Chiarelli media avail at some point this week but waiting on the news. We have a rollicking (ROLLICKING!) show this morning, starting at 10 on TSN1260.

  • 10:20: Jonathan Willis, The Athletic. Postmortem, looking forward.
  • 10:40: Jonah Birenbaum, The Score. Jays are looking good early days.
  • 11:05: Scott Cullen, TSN. NHL playoffs get ready to roar.
  • 11:40: Dave Jamieson, TSN1260. Oilers, NFL draft.

10-1260 text, @Lowetide on twitter. See you on the radio!

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144 Responses to "Farm Workers 2018"

  1. VOR says:

    A minor quibble. Regardless of the number of games he played in Houston the Apollos were fundamental in the development of another hockey player. Mark Messier was a far better player once he’d spent a few games in Houston. It is where he started on the road to being a professional hockey player and not a wild child.

  2. Confused says:

    Quick question to the group

    Hypothesis 1: Leon was on a heater in the playoffs, do not pay him

    Hypothesis 2: forwarded by Ricki: Leon goes on a heater Everytime he enters any and every playoff series.

    Hypothesis 1 uses last years data only, no refutation data, Hypothesis 2 uses multiple years data from junior leagues.

    Hence which is more likely to be true, should we have paid the man?

  3. stevebergeron97 says:

    Hey Lowtide, seeing as the oilers are too low to draft one of Hughes/Boqvist/Wahlstrom, if they don’t draft one of smith/bouchard/Dobson, what are you thoughts on Veleno?

  4. Confused says:

    LT,

    Perhaps an unfair request.

    Mantha, you acknowledge his issue but are positive, Matheson’s recent piece is much more negative.

    Do you have some new update from the team, sorry to ask, just worried about the young man.

  5. JimmyV1965 says:

    Confused:
    Quick question to the group

    Hypothesis 1: Leon was on a heater in the playoffs, do not pay him

    Hypothesis 2: forwarded by Ricki: Leon goes on a heater Everytime he enters any and every playoff series.

    Hypothesis 1 uses last years data only, no refutation data, Hypothesis 2 uses multiple years data from junior leagues.

    Hence which is more likely to be true, should we have paid the man?

    Leon was overpaid by about $1 mill. But who cares? Yes, ideally you want every player to accept a deal below market value, but that doesn’t always happen. The kid still got 70 pts this year in what can be considered a disappointing season. We should count our blessings that we have him for 2C for the next seven years.

  6. Lowetide says:

    Confused:
    LT,

    Perhaps an unfair request.

    Mantha, you acknowledge his issue but are positive, Matheson’s recent piece is much more negative.

    Do you have some new update from the team, sorry to ask, just worried about the young man.

    No, only that with eye injuries there’s a lot that is unknown.

  7. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    That Marody video. Interesting. Nice speed. The dangle move won’t work in the NHL though against top tier D. Not that I am saying that’s all he’s got in his arsenal.

  8. Wilde says:

    I think it’s gonna be a draft day trade of the first rounder, probably directly before the selection.

    – Klefbom’s been mentioned in future plans

    – Same with Nuge

    – Chiarelli doesn’t move skill as quickly if it’s his guy re: Puljujarvi

  9. Munny says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker):
    That Marody video. Interesting. Nice speed. The dangle move won’t work in the NHL though against top tier D. Not that I am saying that’s all he’s got in his arsenal.

    The stickhandle in his own end or the toe drag?

    There’s probably a goal a night in the NHL scored with a toe drag.

  10. Oilin4 says:

    Confused:
    Quick question to the group

    Hypothesis 1: Leon was on a heater in the playoffs, do not pay him

    Hypothesis 2: forwarded by Ricki: Leon goes on a heater Everytime he enters any and every playoff series.

    Hypothesis 1 uses last years data only, no refutation data, Hypothesis 2 uses multiple years data from junior leagues.

    Hence which is more likely to be true, should we have paid the man?

    What if you only make the playoffs once or twice in the duration of the contract?

  11. Bobcaygeon says:

    VOR:
    A minor quibble. Regardless of the number of games he played in Houston the Apollos were fundamental in the development of another hockey player. Mark Messier was a far better player once he’d spent a few games in Houston. It is where he started on the road to being a professional hockey player and not a wild child.

    I’m paraphrasing here and I hope there’s people here who can help back this story up, the story goes Slats had enough of Marks shit and after missing the bus or practice had enough.
    He sent Mark down to Houston to the minors for some tough love and to remind Mark what it took to be a professional only to have Houston call Slats back about a week later saying you got to get this kid out of here he’s going crazy! Word is Mark was having a better time in Houston then what was planned😂

  12. Wayne Kenov says:

    Confused:
    Quick question to the group

    Hypothesis 1: Leon was on a heater in the playoffs, do not pay him

    Hypothesis 2: forwarded by Ricki: Leon goes on a heater Everytime he enters any and every playoff series.

    Hypothesis 1 uses last years data only, no refutation data, Hypothesis 2 uses multiple years data from junior leagues.

    Hence which is more likely to be true, should we have paid the man?

    Well, these were his ppg regular season vs playoff splits in junior.
    2012-13 0.906 and 1.0 (in 4 games)
    2013-14 1.64 and 0.75 (in 4 games)
    2014-15 1.656 and 1.47 (in 19 games)

    So if junior reveals a trend of playoff heaters, I don’t see it. He only had 1 goal and 2 assists in the SJS series, and was scoreless until game 5. So what we are really looking at is a 9 game stretch where he went 6-10-16. Would you have given him a 1.5-2.5 million dollar raise if he did that in september? I would also note that the majority of those points came against 1 team, and that team was hard matching McDavid like the plague. It could simply have been due to a very good matchup for Draisaitl. If they were playing Nashville, maybe he doesn’t get the same points due to a different matchup.

  13. Ribs says:

    https://www.tsn.ca/sabres-g-johnson-rips-team-s-defensive-play-1.1052360

    What mess that Buffalo team is. Edmonton had some rough years for a while there, but they never had so many public displays of frustration from the players like this. Yikes.

  14. Wilde says:

    I’m looking at contenders RFA/2018-19 outlook to see which useful players are going to be available to due the cap, and I’m finding that most, if not all contending teams actually have a *better* cap situation than the Oilers.

    This team’s stuck for 2018-19. You can’t really improve it. Best we’re gonna get is a run of fortune to a wildcard spot.

    Just keep everyone, goddamnit.

  15. Old Timer says:

    Many people talk about the poor season the Oilers had this year and they did have a poor season. It has been disappointing.

    When I was watching Montreal and Buffalo toward the end of the season, it wasn’t disappointing, it was depressing. Neither team even has a pulse. The only players on the Habs that did anything were Petry, Gallagher and Byron. The rest were totally ordinary AHLers. That includes Drouin and Price.

    As for the Sabres, Eichel is a head case. He certainly thinks he is much better that he actually is. His effort level is atrocious. The only time he even tries is if he has the puck on his stick in the offensive zone. While Draisaitl is earning 8.5, Eichel is being paid 10.5. That is truly sad.

  16. Jaxon says:

    stevebergeron97:
    Hey Lowtide, seeing as the oilers are too low to draft one of Hughes/Boqvist/Wahlstrom, if they don’t draft one of smith/bouchard/Dobson, what are you thoughts on Veleno?

    Consensus draft says:
    1. Dahlin
    2. Svechnikov
    3. Zadina
    4. Tkachuk
    5. Boqvist
    6. Hughes
    7. Bouchard
    8. Wahlstrom

    Those players will likely be gone when Edmonton drafts.

    Other options:
    Ty Smith is left-handed and small.
    Noah Dobson has some speed issues. Cam Robinson – Dobber Prospects – January 9th: “A smooth skater but will want to add more speed as he matures.”
    Joel Farabee is another tiny skilled player (155lbs) but not as productive as Yamamoto.

    I think Veleno is the right choice at #9, #10, #11. I don’t think he lasts to #10 as he is the highest rated C in the draft and he has outscored Zadina since being traded in early January. Maybe he even goes before #9. One scout in January had him at #4. He’s got decent size, he’s quick and he plays a smart two-way game. Probably one of the more NHL-ready players in the draft. I’m not sure why he is as low as he is as I’ve never seen a bad thing written about him.

    If they miss out on Veleno, I’d gamble on RHD Merkley, who has amazing upside. Bode Wilde’s NHLe is only 14 points. That is Griffin Reinhart territory and doesn’t bode well for future production in the NHL, which is what they’re hunting for in a RHD. Merkley’s NHLe is 28. Double. If you have The Athletic check out Pronman’s excellent article about him.

    Edmonton’s possible draft positions and who they should pick:
    1. Dahlin
    2. Svechnikov
    3. Svechnikov, Zadina
    9. Veleno, Merkley
    10. Veleno, Merkley
    11. Veleno, Merkley
    12. Veleno, Merkley

  17. Confused says:

    Wayne Kenov,

    Sorry did not research the question just reframed Ricki’s thoughts into a more acceptable format.

    Ricki: can you expand your thoughts on Drai in playoff mode?

  18. Confused says:

    Jaxon,

    Think Montreal has lots of reasons to pick Veleno.

  19. Lowetide says:

    stevebergeron97:
    Hey Lowtide, seeing as the oilers are too low to draft one of Hughes/Boqvist/Wahlstrom, if they don’t draft one of smith/bouchard/Dobson, what are you thoughts on Veleno?

    I have moved Veleno up to No. 9, based a little on math but have received some interesting info on him (a little more dynamic offensively, perhaps more than a skilled two-way center)

  20. Rondo says:

    Jaxon,

    That maybe the consensus top 9 but rarely does it go that way. Still too early.

  21. Pretendergast says:

    Keep tanking, Jack Hughes 2019, Alexis Lafreniere 2020, there’s your top 6 problem solved

  22. ArmchairGM says:

    Jaxon: Consensus draft says:
    1. Dahlin
    2. Svechnikov
    3. Zadina
    4. Tkachuk
    5. Boqvist
    6. Hughes
    7. Bouchard
    8. Wahlstrom

    Those players will likely be gone when Edmonton drafts.

    Other options:
    Ty Smith is left-handed and small.
    Noah Dobson has some speed issues. Cam Robinson – Dobber Prospects – January 9th: “A smooth skater but will want to add more speed as he matures.”
    Joel Farabee is another tiny skilled player (155lbs) but not as productive as Yamamoto.

    I think Veleno is the right choice at #9, #10, #11. I don’t think he lasts to #10 as he is the highest rated C in the draft and he has outscored Zadina since being traded in early January. Maybe he even goes before #9. One scout in January had him at #4. He’s got decent size, he’s quick and he plays a smart two-way game. Probably one of the more NHL-ready players in the draft. I’m not sure why he is as low as he is as I’ve never seen a bad thing written about him.

    If they miss out on Veleno, I’d gamble on RHD Merkley, who has amazing upside. Bode Wilde’s NHLe is only 14 points. That is Griffin Reinhart territory and doesn’t bode well for future production in the NHL, which is what they’re hunting for in a RHD. Merkley’s NHLe is 28. Double. If you have The Athletic check out Pronman’s excellent article about him.

    Edmonton’s possible draft positions and who they should pick:
    1. Dahlin
    2. Svechnikov
    3. Svechnikov, Zadina
    9. Veleno, Merkley
    10. Veleno, Merkley
    11. Veleno, Merkley
    12. Veleno, Merkley

    Well done. I’m higher on Dobson than you are, but otherwise I agree with your comments. My dream scenario would be winning #3 in the lottery and trading that pick to NYI for the #10 (Veleno) and #12 picks (Dobson / Merkley).

    Veleno’s 1.45ppg since being traded at Christmas compares well to Zadina’s 1.44ppg. Zadina had more goals, but Veleno is a center. He reminds me of RNH actually.

  23. dustrock says:

    Merkley is outstanding but you can’t ignore the attitude issue.

    He would be a home run pick if he turns out but I’m not sure this organization is the right one for him.

    Let a stable, successful organization like Tampa Bay take a gamble on Merkley.

    We have no elite talent coming soon. We need to get it right with this pick.

  24. Jaxon says:

    ArmchairGM: Well done. I’m higher on Dobson than you are, but otherwise I agree with your comments. Mmy dream scenario would be winning #3 in the lottery and trading that pick to NYI for the #10 (Veleno) and #12 picks (Dobson / Merkley).

    Veleno’s 1.45ppg since being traded at Christmas compares well to Zadina’s 1.44ppg. Zadina had more goals, but Veleno is a center. He reminds me of RNH actually.

    Ooh, I like that. At #2, I’d still take Svechnikov, but if Svechnikov is gone at #3, giving up on Zadina and being able to grab Veleno AND Merkley would be mindblowing. A lot of ifs that would have to fall into place and you’d need to have a willing trade partner in NYI, but wow, I like it. Depends on what NYI thinks of Zadina or maybe Boqvist compared to others. Not sure I’d even take Zadina over Boqvist but I’m definitely in the minority there against people much smarter than myself.

  25. ArmchairGM says:

    Jaxon,

    Another Dobber take on Dobson:

    “As for Noah Dobson, his season somehow lands secondary to these other two players (Ty Smith and Evan Bouchard) in most results, but his overall package lends itself to perhaps the highest and safest outcome.

    For some time I’ve likened his play to that of St. Louis Blues’ stalwart, Alex Pietrangelo. They are both big, strong, right-shot, smooth-skating defenders who can play an extremely effective and productive game at both ends of the rink.

    Dobson has all the tools to become a minute-munching all around defender and I believe has the highest potential to become a number one defenseman on an NHL squad.”

    https://dobberprospects.com/prospect-ramblings-breaking-down-ty-smith-evan-bouchard-noah-dobson/

  26. Jaxon says:

    dustrock:
    Merkley is outstanding but you can’t ignore the attitude issue.

    He would be a home run pick if he turns out but I’m not sure this organization is the right one for him.

    Let a stable, successful organization like Tampa Bay take a gamble on Merkley.

    We have no elite talent coming soon.We need to get it right with this pick.

    I feel like this attitude issue has taken on a life of its own that I’m not sure is warranted. In interviews with coaches and former coaches they have nothing but glowing things to say about him and have no doubts about his attitude and his work ethic. The only tangible thing I’ve seen is him getting angry at an opposing player and hacking him in the wrist and taking a stupid penalty. but even that seems like an isolated issue and may point more to passion than an attitude problem. you should really check out Pronman’s article on The Athletic. He addresses the issue or lack of issue some. In some ways the issue may be a blessing because it may allow them to get a player who should be ranked in the top 5 based on skill and hockey sense.

  27. ArmchairGM says:

    Confused:
    Jaxon,

    Think Montreal has lots of reasons to pick Veleno.

    Very true – and we have less reason. But if they take Veleno at #5, that pushes Walhstrom, Boqvist, Bouchard, Hughes, Smith and Dobson down into the range of the Edmonton pick – and having any one of those players is probably better for Edmonton in the long run.

  28. stevebergeron97 says:

    Jaxon,

    Does a Veleno selection send RNH packing this summer…?
    I certainly don’t advocate an RNH trade, however, I think it’s
    Near impossible trading one of Lucic/Sekera/Russel.

  29. Jaxon says:

    Confused:
    Jaxon,

    Think Montreal has lots of reasons to pick Veleno.

    But will they bump him up to 4th, when he’s projected in the #11 range on most lists? That’s a big stretch, but yes, if anyone’s going to take him higher than projected, it will be the Quebec team that needs a C. Will they take him ahead of Tkachuk, Boqvist (remember, they lost Subban and Sergachyev recently and Weber isn’t getting younger, although Mete is projecting well), Hughes (ditto), Bouchard (ditto and a D with an NHLe of 35pts!) and Wahlstrom (who also plays some C)?

  30. russ99 says:

    There’s a big disconnect at the AHL level with the Oilers, all the over 21 players get the best icetime, and the under 21 group often gets buried or sent to the ECHL.

    So who’s to blame for this? The Oilers own the Condors, so it’s not like they need to kowtow to an owner who puts more importance on entertainment factor to ensure a decent gate, which many AHL clubs have done in the past to survive.

    So it it Coach Fleming who many prefer veterans over prospects; or the Oilers brass, of which Scott Howson’s staff bio on the Oilers webesite reads:

    In this role he works closely with Senior Vice- President of Hockey Operations Craig MacTavish and Senior Director of Player Development Rick Carriere to oversee the Oilers American Hockey League and ECHL affiliate rosters.

    I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume those three men were behind our great over 21 AHL player signing spree last summer, instead of bringing in players who could help the big club as well.

    Also, it seems that many of our decisions with Puljujarvi the last two years have been in mind with the lack of opportunity or linemakes, not to mention the culture shock for European players that’s not even remotely addressed, so the AHL wasn’t an option for him this year for an extended time.

  31. Jaxon says:

    stevebergeron97:
    Jaxon,

    Does a Veleno selection send RNH packing this summer…?
    I certainly don’t advocate an RNH trade, however, I think it’s
    Near impossible trading one of Lucic/Sekera/Russel.

    I would hope not. I think Nuge might grab that #1 LW spot and never let it go. He got a 30G pace this season with most of his production coming without McDavid. Imagine a whole season gelling with him. I think Veleno would be great for the flexibility that having more Cs would afford the coach. Imagine being behind late in the game and being able to put Nuge-McDavid-Draisaitl out and still having a solid C to go out on the next shift Benson-Veleno-Puljujarvi, then Aberg-Strome-Yamamoto. Veleno can always switch to wing, but getting a winger to play C doesn’t work well as foten.

  32. russ99 says:

    stevebergeron97:
    Jaxon,

    Does a Veleno selection send RNH packing this summer…?
    I certainly don’t advocate an RNH trade, however, I think it’s
    Near impossible trading one of Lucic/Sekera/Russel.

    Veleno played in the Q, he’ll need development time before grabbing an NHL job.

    This only hedges bets that we could trade RNH in the next three years before his contract is up.

    If he’s available when we pick, I’d grab him, we don’t have to draft a winger or RHD this year, often drafting for current NHL need is foolish, since needs change by the time the player is ready to play in the NHL.

  33. sliderule says:

    Jaxon: Consensus draft says:
    1. Dahlin
    2. Svechnikov
    3. Zadina
    4. Tkachuk
    5. Boqvist
    6. Hughes
    7. Bouchard
    8. Wahlstrom

    Those players will likely be gone when Edmonton drafts.

    Other options:
    Ty Smith is left-handed and small.
    Noah Dobson has some speed issues. Cam Robinson – Dobber Prospects – January 9th: “A smooth skater but will want to add more speed as he matures.”
    Joel Farabee is another tiny skilled player (155lbs) but not as productive as Yamamoto.

    I think Veleno is the right choice at #9, #10, #11. I don’t think he lasts to #10 as he is the highest rated C in the draft and he has outscored Zadina since being traded in early January. Maybe he even goes before #9. One scout in January had him at #4. He’s got decent size, he’s quick and he plays a smart two-way game. Probably one of the more NHL-ready players in the draft. I’m not sure why he is as low as he is as I’ve never seen a bad thing written about him.

    If they miss out on Veleno, I’d gamble on RHD Merkley, who has amazing upside. Bode Wilde’s NHLe is only 14 points. That is Griffin Reinhart territory and doesn’t bode well for future production in the NHL, which is what they’re hunting for in a RHD. Merkley’s NHLe is 28. Double. If you have The Athletic check out Pronman’s excellent article about him.

    Edmonton’s possible draft positions and who they should pick:
    1. Dahlin
    2. Svechnikov
    3. Svechnikov, Zadina
    9. Veleno, Merkley
    10. Veleno, Merkley
    11. Veleno, Merkley
    12. Veleno, Merkley

    Noah Dobson tested fastest both forward and backward sprints at top prospect testing.

    This was against all players.

    Scouts who say things like that are using the eye test rather factual information available

  34. Jaxon says:

    sliderule: Noah Dobson tested fastest both forward and backward sprints at top prospect testing.

    This was against all players.

    Scouts who say things like that are using the eye test rather factual information available

    Well, that changes everything. I’m still voting for a gamble on Merkley but Dobson is back up near the top of the list. Nice find!

  35. ArmchairGM says:

    russ99:… we don’t have to draft a winger or RHD this year, often drafting for current NHL need is foolish, since needs change by the time the player is ready to play in the NHL.

    True, but RHD projects to be a weak position even if Bear and Berglund make the big show. There’s no depth at this position even looking forward three years. All else being equal, I’d pick the RHD. This seems like the year to do so, as half the first round projects to be quality RHDs.

  36. ArmchairGM says:

    sliderule: Noah Dobson tested fastest both forward and backward sprints at top prospect testing.

    This was against all players.

    Scouts who say things like that are using the eye test rather factual information available

    Link? I don’t doubt you, just like to see the article.

  37. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    russ99,

    – Maybe Chia is building his case to get rid of MacT? MacT: missed playoffs more than losing in first round. Came back as GM, and was brutal. Now, running the Condors: brutal.

    – If i’m Chia, I’m going to argue he needs new advisors, with fresh perspectives, and better track records. We don’t know (but the org does) where MacT was in terms of Griff, or Hall.

  38. ArmchairGM says:

    ArmchairGM: Link? I don’t doubt you, just like to see the article.

    Nevermind, I think I found it:

    On-Ice Tests:

    30M Forward Skate:
    1 – Serron Noel (Oshawa Generals)
    2 – Dmitry Zavgorodniy (Rimouski Oceanic)
    3 – Liam Foudy (London Knights)

    30M Forward Skate with Puck:
    1 – Ty Smith (Spokane Chiefs)
    2 – Liam Foudy (London Knights)
    3 – Noah Dobson (Acadie-Bathurst Titan)

    30M Backward Skate:
    1 – Noah Dobson (Acadie-Bathurst Titan)
    2 – Evan Bouchard (London Knights)
    3 – Xavier Bernard (Drummondville Voltigeurs)

    30M Backward Skate with Puck:
    1 – Noah Dobson (Acadie-Bathurst Titan)
    2 – Ty Smith (Spokane Chiefs)
    3 – Liam Foudy (London Knights)

    http://sherwin-williamstopprospects.ca/article/chls-top-prospects-showcase-strengths-in-sport-testing-combine

  39. Dixs35 says:

    Just from reading and browsing this draft seems to have a bunch of guys rated around the same wouldn’t this be an ideal draft to trade down with a team with a 2 Nd first round pick and a high second. And collect a couple of guys

  40. JimmyV1965 says:

    Jaxon: Consensus draft says:
    1. Dahlin
    2. Svechnikov
    3. Zadina
    4. Tkachuk
    5. Boqvist
    6. Hughes
    7. Bouchard
    8. Wahlstrom

    Those players will likely be gone when Edmonton drafts.

    Other options:
    Ty Smith is left-handed and small.
    Noah Dobson has some speed issues. Cam Robinson – Dobber Prospects – January 9th: “A smooth skater but will want to add more speed as he matures.”
    Joel Farabee is another tiny skilled player (155lbs) but not as productive as Yamamoto.

    I think Veleno is the right choice at #9, #10, #11. I don’t think he lasts to #10 as he is the highest rated C in the draft and he has outscored Zadina since being traded in early January. Maybe he even goes before #9. One scout in January had him at #4. He’s got decent size, he’s quick and he plays a smart two-way game. Probably one of the more NHL-ready players in the draft. I’m not sure why he is as low as he is as I’ve never seen a bad thing written about him.

    If they miss out on Veleno, I’d gamble on RHD Merkley, who has amazing upside. Bode Wilde’s NHLe is only 14 points. That is Griffin Reinhart territory and doesn’t bode well for future production in the NHL, which is what they’re hunting for in a RHD. Merkley’s NHLe is 28. Double. If you have The Athletic check out Pronman’s excellent article about him.

    Edmonton’s possible draft positions and who they should pick:
    1. Dahlin
    2. Svechnikov
    3. Svechnikov, Zadina
    9. Veleno, Merkley
    10. Veleno, Merkley
    11. Veleno, Merkley
    12. Veleno, Merkley

    If we don’t get Veleno, seems like the perfect year to trade down.

  41. ArmchairGM says:

    ArmchairGM: Nevermind, I think I found it:

    On-Ice Tests:

    30M Forward Skate:
    1 – Serron Noel (Oshawa Generals)
    2 – Dmitry Zavgorodniy (Rimouski Oceanic)
    3 – Liam Foudy (London Knights)

    30M Forward Skate with Puck:
    1 – Ty Smith (Spokane Chiefs)
    2 – Liam Foudy (London Knights)
    3 – Noah Dobson (Acadie-Bathurst Titan)

    30M Backward Skate:
    1 – Noah Dobson (Acadie-Bathurst Titan)
    2 – Evan Bouchard (London Knights)
    3 – Xavier Bernard (Drummondville Voltigeurs)

    30M Backward Skate with Puck:
    1 – Noah Dobson (Acadie-Bathurst Titan)
    2 – Ty Smith (Spokane Chiefs)
    3 – Liam Foudy (London Knights)

    http://sherwin-williamstopprospects.ca/article/chls-top-prospects-showcase-strengths-in-sport-testing-combine

    More:

    Defenceman Noah Dobson of the Acadie-Bathurst Titan (ranked 8th by NHL CS) led the way in overall on-ice testing based on results across the 10 different categories. Fellow defenceman Ty Smith of the Spokane Chiefs (ranked 14th by NHL CS) tied for second with Knights forward Liam Foudy, followed by forward Dmitry Zavgorodniy of the Rimouski Oceanic (ranked 54th by NHL CS) in fourth, and top ranked North American skater Andrei Svechnikov of the Barrie Colts finished in fifth.

  42. ArmchairGM says:

    Dixs35:
    Just from reading and browsing this draft seems to have a bunch of guys rated around the same wouldn’t this be an ideal draft to trade down with a team with a 2 Nd first round pick and a high second.And collect a couple of guys

    I see a drop after #2, then another after #12. Since we’re picking (most likely) 9th or 10th, I don’t think trading down is a good idea. IF we win #1 or #2 in the lottery you take those selections, but if we win #3 I think trading down (but still within the top 12) is the smart play – depending on what the offer is, of course.

  43. pts2pndr says:

    ArmchairGM: True, but RHD projects to be a weak position even if Bear and Berglund make the big show. There’s no depth at this position even looking forward three years. All else being equal, I’d pick the RHD. This seems like the year to do so, as half the first round note projects to be quality RHDs.
    My comment should have read a preponerance of left hand shooting prospects vs right shot!

    Right D as well as right wingers and right hand centers are the gold standard! Given that there is a preponderance of right shot players ( two thirds of players being left shot ) it only makes sense to draft right shot players,when all else is reasonably the same! It is basicaly the age old law of supply and demand!

  44. Wilde says:

    ArmchairGM: Nevermind, I think I found it:

    On-Ice Tests:

    30M Forward Skate:
    1 – Serron Noel (Oshawa Generals)
    2 – Dmitry Zavgorodniy (Rimouski Oceanic)
    3 – Liam Foudy (London Knights)

    30M Forward Skate with Puck:
    1 – Ty Smith (Spokane Chiefs)
    2 – Liam Foudy (London Knights)
    3 – Noah Dobson (Acadie-Bathurst Titan)

    30M Backward Skate:
    1 – Noah Dobson (Acadie-Bathurst Titan)
    2 – Evan Bouchard (London Knights)
    3 – Xavier Bernard (Drummondville Voltigeurs)

    30M Backward Skate with Puck:
    1 – Noah Dobson (Acadie-Bathurst Titan)
    2 – Ty Smith (Spokane Chiefs)
    3 – Liam Foudy (London Knights)

    http://sherwin-williamstopprospects.ca/article/chls-top-prospects-showcase-strengths-in-sport-testing-combine

    Skating speed test results are completely secondary to the unteachable trait of cognitive quickness when it comes to closing or creating gaps in a hockey game.

    You can be faster than another guy in a test where they tell you where to go and when, but still be second to every opportunity in a hockey game if he’s got the headstart of knowing where to go.

    Then there’s knowing how and when to change speeds, and how quickly you do it. Can you skate through a check? Can you stay on your edges and maintain speed when you have to drop your shoulder?

    How fast can the fastest backwards skater actually check a skilled forward at that speed? How quick can they react if he button hooks? If he successfully checks a toe drag, how fast will he get to the loose puck?

    This stuff won’t straight up *lie* to you, but it’ll certainly mislead if you let it.

    It’s like Pulkkinen and his shot.

    Anyways, if we’re dead-set going to use the CHL top prospects stuff, it should probably be more of this stuff starting at 0:51.

    https://youtu.be/h_GKp921cPI?t=51s

    In the page you’ve posted, the agility drills are the weave and transition.

    Weave Agility:
    1 – Andrei Svechnikov (Barrie Colts)
    2 – Dmitry Zavgorodniy (Rimouski Oceanic)
    3 – Ty Smith (Spokane Chiefs)

    Weave Agility with Puck:
    1 – Andrei Svechnikov (Barrie Colts)
    2 – Allan McShane (Oshawa Generals)
    3 – Philipp Kurashev (Quebec Remparts)

    Transition Agility:
    1 – Akil Thomas (Niagara IceDogs)
    2 – Barrett Hayton (Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds)
    3 – Ryan McLeod (Mississauga Steelheads)

    Transition Agility with Puck:
    1 – Akil Thomas (Niagara IceDogs)
    2 – Aidan Dudas (Owen Sound Attack)
    3 – Cameron Hillis (Guelph Storm)

  45. Wilde says:

    Wilde,

    Also, those two guys in the top 3 of Transition Agility with Puck would make great late round picks.

    Both June 2000 birthdays that are near PPG in the OHL.

    Going PPG as a true 17 year old is a pretty good arrow.

    Dudas is #59 NA via NHL CS midterms, Hillis #131.

  46. ArmchairGM says:

    Wilde: Skating speed test results are completely secondary to the unteachable trait of cognitive quickness when it comes to closing or creating gaps in a hockey game.

    You can be faster than another guy in a test where they tell you where to go and when, but still be second to every opportunity in a hockey game if he’s got the headstart of knowing where to go.

    Then there’s knowing how and when to change speeds, and how quickly you do it. Can you skate through a check? Can you stay on your edges and maintain speed when you have to drop your shoulder?

    How fast can the fastest backwards skater actually check a skilled forward at that speed? How quick can they react if he button hooks? If he successfully checks a toe drag, how fast will he get to the loose puck?

    This stuff won’t straight up *lie* to you, but it’ll certainly mislead if you let it.

    It’s like Pulkkinen and his shot.

    Anyways, if we’re dead-set going to use the CHL top prospects stuff, it should probably be more of this stuff starting at 0:51.

    https://youtu.be/h_GKp921cPI?t=51s

    In the page you’ve posted, the agility drills are the weave and transition.

    Weave Agility:
    1 – Andrei Svechnikov (Barrie Colts)
    2 – Dmitry Zavgorodniy (Rimouski Oceanic)
    3 – Ty Smith (Spokane Chiefs)

    Weave Agility with Puck:
    1 – Andrei Svechnikov (Barrie Colts)
    2 – Allan McShane (Oshawa Generals)
    3 – Philipp Kurashev (Quebec Remparts)

    Transition Agility:
    1 – Akil Thomas (Niagara IceDogs)
    2 – Barrett Hayton (Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds)
    3 – Ryan McLeod (Mississauga Steelheads)

    Transition Agility with Puck:
    1 – Akil Thomas (Niagara IceDogs)
    2 – Aidan Dudas (Owen Sound Attack)
    3 – Cameron Hillis (Guelph Storm)

    Yeah, I’m not sold on the value of the tests either, just posting the link and the information relevant to sliderule’s post. Dobson did have the best overall results in the on-ice portion – a combination of 10 events – so he obviously fared well in the agility events too, although not top-3.

  47. bendelson says:

    Wilde,

    Late to the party Wilde, but I would add Jason Dickenson to your ‘misfit’ target list.
    Speed, size… and kills penalties too!

  48. Cassandra says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux:
    russ99,

    – Maybe Chia is building his case to get rid of MacT?MacT: missed playoffs more than losing in first round.Came back as GM, and was brutal.Now, running the Condors: brutal.

    – If i’m Chia, I’m going to argue he needs new advisors, with fresh perspectives, and better track records.We don’t know (but the org does) where MacT was in terms of Griff, or Hall.

    Your hatred for MacTavish is blinding.

    If I wasn’t witnessing it first hand I would not believe it were possible for someone to twist themselves into such knots to turn the failures of one person (Chiarelli) into the failures of another.

    For those of us who live in the real world, MacTavish was general manager of the Oilers for only two seasons. His record during that time was mediocre but nowhere near the catastrophe of Chiarelli.

    To wit, here is a list of mind numbingly stupid things that MacTavish didn’t do, and has never done.

    1) Trade for Griffin Reinhart
    2) Trade Taylor Hall for a defensive defenseman
    3) Sign Milan Lucic

    And for those who want to blame MacTavish for these things, while you are add it go ahead and blame him for trading Seguin, Kessel, and Wheeler. Might as well blame him for trading for the corpse of Tomas Kaberle.

    That would make as much sense. Chiarelli is on the short list of worst general managers of all time. MacTavish is mediocre blah.

    I would kill for mediocre blah right now. MacTavish inherited a complete mess that had no chance to succeed in the short term. Chiarelli inherited the golden goose and ruined it in three years.

    The Oilers are going to make the playoffs next year, the mediocrity of the Pacific demands it. Making the playoffs when you are born on third base is a terrible result.

  49. OilClog says:

    Lol! MacT’s teams had to compete against teams that had no salary cap… its a miracle the Oilers ever made the playoffs at the time. Anyone worth more then a dollar was playing in other towns. But let’s forget history.

    Wait nope can’t

    MacT’s teams beat Dallas, Colorado, and Detroit in the playoffs when they had absolutely no business even being in the games.

    If you’re trying to sell MacT’s coaching tenure as any reason as to why the Oilers are where they are, you sound like a drug addict.

  50. Wilde says:

    ArmchairGM: Yeah, I’m not sold on the value of the tests either, just posting the link and the information relevant to sliderule’s post. Dobson did have the best overall results in the on-ice portion – a combination of 10 events – so he obviously fared well in the agility events too, although not top-3.

    Yeah I was more responding to the subject of conversation and not anything you yourself said specifically, I just wanted to have the rankings as the quote for the post so it made more sense to read.

  51. Alpine says:

    OilClog:
    Lol! MacT’s teams had to compete against teams that had no salary cap… its a miracle the Oilers ever made the playoffs at the time. Anyone worth more then a dollar was playing in other towns. But let’s forget history.

    Wait nope can’t

    MacT’s teams beat Dallas, Colorado, and Detroit in the playoffs when they had absolutely no business even being in the games.

    If you’re trying to sell MacT’s coaching tenure as any reason as to why the Oilers are where they are, you sound like a drug addict.

    MacT only beat Detroit of those three. Which should still be commended obviously.

  52. Wayne Kenov says:

    Confused:
    Wayne Kenov,

    Sorry did not research the question just reframed Ricki’s thoughts into a more acceptable format.

    Ricki: can you expand your thoughts on Drai in playoff mode?

    No worries. If you didn’t namedrop Ricki, I wouldn’t have looked it up either. It’s about knowing who to trust. Hopefully Chia has learned the same lesson by now.

  53. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    Cassandra,

    – I don’t actually hate MacT: I’ve had the pleasure of meeting him. My buddies in hockey circles who have played with him, worked with him say he’s a stand-up guy (who needs to move on)

    – When trying to solve for why our organization has been so terrible though, I don’t think the examination is in-depth enough. Only Lowe, MacT and Howson have been here consistently. And they still have hockey pull.

    – Buffalo: they hired a great new GM, with a stellar track-record in Pittsburg, and a coach that achieved a lot as a player, moved up the ranks as a coach, was with Nashville. They were excellent hires on paper: getting rid of a terrible GM, and a stubborn coach

    – They also brought in some new guys like Ryan Jankowski who has a good background

    – Firing Coach and GM and replacing them with better ones isn’t a magic elixer. Firing coach and GM, and replacing them with good candidates, and allowing them to hire and fire whoever they want in the organziation: sure I’d be all for that

    – I think I’m more nuanced than how you represent: I’m not blind faith Chia defender. I just don’t trust Bob, MacT, Lowe and Howson to make the determination that Chia has to go, and they all stay, and they bring in the next best new coach and GM.

    – Because the evidence does not support that this mess is all on Chia: he didn’t hire the coach, he didn’t hire the guy in charge of the farm, he didn’t have a scouting staff for that first draft, he didn’t decide alone to trade Hall

    – Last year he got votes as GM of the year. This year our top-3 D were injured, our goalie sucked, half the team shot 0% for the first 20 games.

    – Blaming it all on Chia this year is facile.

  54. Glass says:

    Would anyone consider trading Drai for the right d? Someone like Ekblad or Petrangelo/Parayko.

  55. Alpine says:

    I do really like Dobson. Most scouts have him in the range of our pick (9-10). Id be happy picking him there and I think there’s minimal difference between him and Smith, and when theres such little difference, I think you take the righty.

    I think Wahlstrom is gone at that point and I’m just a bit wary of Veleno’s upside.

  56. Alpine says:

    Glass:
    Would anyone consider trading Drai for the right d? Someone like Ekblad or Petrangelo/Parayko.

    Had not we not already done the F for a D trade and seen mixed results, then yeah I probably think about Ekblad or Parayko. Pietrangelos too old. Hall for Pietro would have made more sense.

    I look at the D Pittsburgh won with last season, and I wonder if just adding an okay RD makes a difference. Remember, this same D core nearly made the WCF last year.

  57. pboy says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux,

    Katz isn’t going to fire anyone. Full Stop.

    My guess is all of them are back for next season.

  58. godot10 says:

    Glass:
    Would anyone consider trading Drai for the right d? Someone like Ekblad or Petrangelo/Parayko.

    If one has an actual good player signed long term to a reasonable contract, it is somewhat foolish to trade them. One should look at other ways to solve the “problem”.

    Draisaitl is a top 30 even strength point producer at 21, signed for seven more years, with unique attributes (i.e. big centre). One would be nuts to trade him.

    It was sort of nuts to trade Hall.

  59. godot10 says:

    Crickets so far out of OEG except for McLellan’s passionate defense about how it wasn’t his or his long time assistants fault.

  60. Wilde says:

    godot10,

    This is actually gaining steam. Why aren’t they saying anything?

    Why aren’t they at least setting a date for a press avail.?

    I’m not even trying to be funny or anything, it’s an interesting development.

  61. Wilde says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux:

    – I think I’m more nuanced than how you represent

    – Blaming it all on Chia this year is facile.

    Perhaps the positions you argue against are also more nuanced than how you represent them?

  62. bendelson says:

    Wilde:
    godot10,

    This is actually gaining steam. Why aren’t they saying anything?

    Why aren’t they at least setting a date for a press avail.?

    I’m not even trying to be funny or anything, it’s an interesting development.

    The OBC is too busy arguing over who the smartest, ‘smartest man in room’ is…?

  63. Cassandra says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux,

    But that is just it. Howson and MacTavish haven’t been here all along, and yet you so easily want to attribute Tambellini’s failures to them when they weren’t even working for the organization.

    Meanwhile, you just as easily want to attribute Chiarelli’s decisions to other people when he is the one in charge, while getting and taking credit for those decisions at the time.

    If that isn’t a double standard I don’t know what one is.

    Finally, we’ve been having this conversation long enough to know that I am not blaming Chiarelli for this year. This years failures were seeded three years ago.

    Specifically, I am blaming him for the easily avoidable errors. The mistakes that were 100% errors at the time. Not simply errors, but unconscionable errors, errors that were so obvious that the span the bounds of credulity. Errors that no person with an ounce of self-reflection could have possibly justified at the time

    I am blaming him for trading Hall. There was not then a single possible justification for the trade. There was no possible justification for it last year, indeed it may have cost the Oilers the Cup. And nothing has changed this year. What is obvious now was always obvious.

    I am blaming him for signing Lucic whose contract became untradeable the moment it was signed. While Lucic’ performance over the past two years (not just since Christmas) has been horrific beyond imagining, even reasonably expectation Lucic has an untradeable contract. This was known at the time.

    I blame him for thinking Reinhart was worth more than Marincin. Islander bloggers knew it. Why didn’t Chiarelli. This was known at the time.

    I blame him for trading a pick that had a high probability of becoming a first line player. If you don’t’ want to call him Matt Barzal, call him Kyle Conner. Defending the trade by saying Chiarelli wouldn’t have taken either player anyway, is defending him by calling him incompetent.

    I don’t expect an NHL general manager to be a genius. I do expect him to avoid obvious mistakes. And the mistakes he has made go so far beyond obvious they strain the boundaries of reality. Indeed, they must be explained away. The problem with explaining them away is that other than signing Lucic none of the likely fall guys have a track record of doing things this stupid. Meanwhile, Chiarelli has a long and established track record of terrible trades that follow just this model.

    Chiarelli doesn’t think forward talent matters: see Seguin, Kessel, Wheeler
    Chiarelli doesn’t appropriately value first round picks: see Kaberle

    Chiarelli doesn’t understand what makes teams win.

  64. Wilde says:

    —————————————————————————————–

    Lou Korac

    Armstrong made it clear the #stlblues will be active this summer, whether it be free agency or trade market.

    10:33 AM – 10 Apr 2018

    ——————————————————————————————

    Hmm.

  65. Cassandra says:

    Wilde: Perhaps the positions you argue against are also more nuanced than how you represent them?

    I don’t know. I don’t think my position is nuanced. We are talking about things that are so elementary that nuance muddles what should be clear.

    I mean seriously, people like Kinger have spent two years trying to justify trading a superstar for a second pairing defenseman. We don’t need nuance here. We need them to admit they were wrong and to try and understand why they were wrong. Nuance here is just sophistry.

  66. russ99 says:

    I said it before and I’ll say it again, if Lowe and MacTavish are at the draft table again this year, we’re screwed no matter what else we do.

  67. Jethro Tull says:

    This place is going to melt if Barzel and Eberle light it up with McDavid in the IIHF WHC.

  68. Cassandra says:

    russ99:
    I said it before and I’ll say it again, if Lowe and MacTavish are at the draft table again this year, we’re screwed no matter what else we do.

    You do know that MacTavish was in charge of the draft table the year the Oilers drafted Leon Draisatl.

    He was also in charge of the draft table the year the Oilers drafted Darnell Nurse.

    You like those picks don’t you? Would you rather have Sam Bennett?

    The dislike of MacTavish is so deep and so broad it has become disconnected from reality.

  69. N64 says:

    Cassandra: two years trying to justify trading a superstar for a second pairing defenseman. We don’t need nuance here.

    ~ Year 1: We’re in the playoffs. QED, nerd.
    Year 2: Ancient History, nerd. ~

  70. Wilde says:

    Cassandra,

    That was more of a general statement, it struck me comic that he’d type both of those sentences in the same retort.

    russ99:
    I said it before and I’ll say it again, if Lowe and MacTavish are at the draft table again this year, we’re screwed no matter what else we do.

    Do you mean in general if they’re in positions of influence, or literally just the draft?

    I really like our drafting lately. Time will tell, but that round 3-5 run of Skinner, Samorukov, Safin, Maksimov looks damn good so far.

    Just need 2 more years of that without trading picks.

  71. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Ribs:
    https://www.tsn.ca/sabres-g-johnson-rips-team-s-defensive-play-1.1052360

    What mess that Buffalo team is. Edmonton had some rough years for a while there, but they never had so many public displays of frustration from the players like this. Yikes.

    BUF is the poster boy for “a shitty Dcorps makes your good forwards moot”

  72. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Wayne Kenov: Well, these were his ppg regular season vs playoff splits in junior.
    2012-13 0.906 and 1.0 (in 4 games)
    2013-14 1.64 and 0.75 (in 4 games)
    2014-15 1.656 and 1.47 (in 19 games)

    So if junior reveals a trend of playoff heaters, I don’t see it. He only had 1 goal and 2 assists in the SJS series, and was scoreless until game 5. So what we are really looking at is a 9 game stretch where he went 6-10-16.Would you have given him a 1.5-2.5 million dollar raise if he did that in september? I would also note that the majority of those points came against 1 team, and that team was hard matching McDavid like the plague. It could simply have been due to a very good matchup for Draisaitl. If they were playing Nashville, maybe he doesn’t get the same points due to a different matchup.

    Good post.

  73. Jethro Tull says:

    Woodguy v2.0: BUF is the poster boy for “a shitty Dcorps makes your good forwards moot”

    Not us, then?

  74. Confused says:

    Wilde,

    Perhaps Dundon is still giving Daryl pointers before he steps up to the Mike.

  75. godot10 says:

    This article makes me want to cry.

    https://www.tsn.ca/talent/hainsey-will-be-vital-as-leafs-look-to-slow-bergeron-line-1.1052748

    Instead Russell got 4 x $4 million with effectively a full NMC.

  76. commonfan29 says:

    Cassandra: MacTavish is mediocre blah.

    I think that is incredibly generous.

    From where I sit, MacT cost the team Petry and Dubnyk, and set up the ruining of Schultz and Yakupov.

    He thought Andrew Ference and Nikita Nikitin would help solve the team’s defensive problems.

    I think he was a very bad NHL GM.

    That said, I am still in full agreement that he was not nearly as bad as Chiarelli has been. The speed and at which he was able to fully destroy the team’s future is absolutely astonishing.

  77. Georges says:

    Cassandra: I don’t know.I don’t think my position is nuanced.We are talking about things that are so elementary that nuance muddles what should be clear.

    I mean seriously, people like Kinger have spent two years trying to justify trading a superstar for a second pairing defenseman.We don’t need nuance here.We need them to admit they were wrong and to try and understand why they were wrong.Nuance here is just sophistry.

    I’m happy for you. All your prophecies came true. Lucic isn’t worth a 7th round draft pick. Or is it he IS worth a 7th round draft pick? I forget. Nailed it either way. He bad.

    And it turns out if you say Taylor Hall is a superstar often enough and long enough, that also becomes true.

    We can’t be THAT far away from the cherry on top: a PC firing.

    Good times. But maybe time to change your handle again. Everyone believes you now.

  78. StixMalone says:

    commonfan29: I think that is incredibly generous.

    From where I sit, MacT cost the team Petry and Dubnyk, and set up the ruining of Schultz and Yakupov.

    He thought Andrew Ference and Nikita Nikitin would help solve the team’s defensive problems.

    I think he was a very bad NHL GM.

    That said, I am still in full agreement that he was not nearly as bad as Chiarelli has been. The speed and at which he was able to fully destroy the team’s future is absolutely astonishing.

    In defense of MacT I believe Howson coerced MacT to acquire Nikitin….

  79. Alpine says:

    StixMalone: In defense of MacT I believe Howson coerced MacT to acquire Nikitin….

    Nikitin was a dud, but on only a two year contract, he maybe doesn’t even make the top 5 of worst MacT moves.

  80. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Cassandra: You do know that MacTavish was in charge of the draft table the year the Oilers drafted Leon Draisatl.

    He was also in charge of the draft table the year the Oilers drafted Darnell Nurse.

    You like those picks don’t you?Would you rather have Sam Bennett?

    The dislike of MacTavish is so deep and so broad it has become disconnected from reality.

    I don’t see a lot of thinking there. He took the big centre and the mean D with Canada rep that could skate.

    Drai is good, Ristainen was a major miss. Right shot big fast and has offense.

    I like Nurse well enough but that was the wrong decision for sure. They’ll end up make the same money or Nurse more. Especially on a team deepest in LD in a league spare of quality RD.

  81. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Cassandra: You do know that MacTavish was in charge of the draft table the year the Oilers drafted Leon Draisatl.

    He was also in charge of the draft table the year the Oilers drafted Darnell Nurse.

    You like those picks don’t you?Would you rather have Sam Bennett?

    The dislike of MacTavish is so deep and so broad it has become disconnected from reality.

    Chia has also done better with draft selections having NHL potential. MacT improved drafting but still took players with lower high end potential. Many are washing out now. Don’t draft role players.

  82. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Old Timer,

    As for the Sabres, Eichel is a head case. He certainly thinks he is much better that he actually is.

    BUF’s 5v5 Pts/60 this year, top 5:

    Eichel 2.04 pts/60
    Pomminville (of all fucking people) 1.47
    E. Kane 1.44
    Reinhart 1.34
    Ocposso 1.29

    He’s better offensively than everyone else on that team.

    BUF’s 5v5 GF% this year, top 5:

    Pomminville (Hi Jason) 47.4%
    E.Kane 47.0%
    Eichel 45.9%
    O”Reilly 44.1%
    Reinhart 43.6%

    That looks like the 2012 Oilers, but worse.

    He`s not the problem.

    Why do people think the best players are “the problem`

    My biggest issues in my org are the worst players.

  83. Woogie63 says:

    Jethro Tull:
    This place is going to melt if Barzel and Eberle light it up with McDavid in the IIHF WHC.

    Big Ice, no hitting, don’t get hurt while you show your family The Little Mermaid. Is a very long way from March NHL games.

  84. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Jaxon,


    Consensus draft says:
    1. Dahlin
    2. Svechnikov
    3. Zadina
    4. Tkachuk
    5. Boqvist
    6. Hughes
    7. Bouchard
    8. Wahlstrom

    Those players will likely be gone when Edmonton drafts.

    Its really rare when the top 8 go according to Hoyle.

    Someone in your top 8 will still be there at 9 and maybe 10.

    I remember watching Fowler drop from 3 to 12.

    ANA shit their pants.

    They had him “2 levels above everyone else available”, or so the story goes.

  85. Woogie63 says:

    Woodguy v2.0:
    Old Timer,

    As for the Sabres, Eichel is a head case. He certainly thinks he is much better that he actually is.

    BUF’s 5v5 Pts/60 this year, top 5:

    Eichel 2.04 pts/60
    Pomminville (of all fucking people) 1.47
    E. Kane 1.44
    Reinhart 1.34
    Ocposso 1.29

    He’s better offensively than everyone else on that team.

    BUF’s 5v5 GF% this year, top 5:

    Pomminville (Hi Jason) 47.4%
    E.Kane 47.0%
    Eichel45.9%
    O”Reilly 44.1%
    Reinhart 43.6%

    That looks like the 2012 Oilers, but worse.

    He`s not the problem.

    Why do people think the best players are “the problem`

    My biggest issues in my org are the worst players.

    To be fair,

    One (good) rule on this blog is you must be able to demonstrate a source for your comment. Lots of player “issues” can’t /won’t be sourced,. In fairness to the player, this type of posts are outside the spirit of what LT has established here.

    However people who have played, coached, managed teams understand sometime the results from a player on the playing surface are not worth the trouble for the balance of the team.

    To be clear have no “inside” knowledge about Mr. Eichel

  86. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Woodguy v2.0:
    Old Timer,

    As for the Sabres, Eichel is a head case. He certainly thinks he is much better that he actually is.

    BUF’s 5v5 Pts/60 this year, top 5:

    Eichel 2.04 pts/60
    Pomminville (of all fucking people) 1.47
    E. Kane 1.44
    Reinhart 1.34
    Ocposso 1.29

    He’s better offensively than everyone else on that team.

    BUF’s 5v5 GF% this year, top 5:

    Pomminville (Hi Jason) 47.4%
    E.Kane 47.0%
    Eichel45.9%
    O”Reilly 44.1%
    Reinhart 43.6%

    That looks like the 2012 Oilers, but worse.

    He`s not the problem.

    Why do people think the best players are “the problem`

    My biggest issues in my org are the worst players.

    Who are your upgrade targets?

  87. hunter1909 says:

    StixMalone: In defense of MacT I believe Howson coerced MacT to acquire Nikitin….

    Great. Oilers get one GM after another too weak to run their own freaking teams.

    I can’t imagine Sam Pollock/Lou Lamoriello constantly getting their arms twisted by subordinates, in the way MacT/Chiarelli’s apologists make out.

  88. Lowetide says:

    For the Athletic: Edmonton’s next first shot scorer should be Jesse Puljujarvi. Or Oilver Wahlstrom

    https://theathletic.com/308545/2018/04/10/lowetide-finding-the-oilers-next-first-shot-scorer/

  89. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    sliderule: Noah Dobson tested fastest both forward and backward sprints at top prospect testing.

    This was against all players.

    Scouts who say things like that are using the eye test rather factual information available

    Skating fast and playing fast are two different things.

  90. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Jethro Tull: Not us, then?

    It was EDM from 2007-2016, not 16/17, but again in 17/18

  91. HT Joe says:

    hunter1909: Great. Oilers get one GM after another too weak to run their own freaking teams.

    There’s certainly been a lot of arguments over who has been the worst GM for the Oilers.

    People, people… we can all be winners with this argument. 🙂

  92. JimmyV1965 says:

    There will be big changes in Carolina this summer. And it will inevitably lead to mistakes. No one is happy. The exit interviews were actually conducted by the owner and he’s not pleased. Some of the players were critical as well.

    The owner is talking about culture change and the need to get tougher. Holy crap, does that ever sound familiar.

    They will be moving out some skilled players who they think have grown accustomed to losing. It sounds like Faulk and Skinner are at the top of the list.

    For once, it would be nice to see the Oilers take advantage of an unstable situation and trade for some assets on the cheap. I think Zack Kassian would be highly valued there right now.

    The Hurricanes might become a great team under the new owner, but right now the situation is very volatile. I hope we’re the team that takes advantage of it.

  93. Wilde says:

    Ribs,

    cc: Daryl Katz

  94. Lowetide says:

    Woodguy v2.0: Skating fast and playing fast are two different things.

    Source?

  95. Wilde says:

    It appears everything is going well in the nation’s capital

  96. McSorley33 says:

    russ99,

    Scans the Oilers RHD depth chart…

    Again, if you are not willing to draft high end RHD. ….how does one obtain them?

    Our 2 high end LHD , Klefbom and Nurse, did not fall from th3 sky.

    I don’t mind the old BP available theory, ( like the efficient market theory?) but would request
    A detailed plan of how this org. Obtains one of hen.

  97. McSorley33 says:

    Cassandra,

    If McT does not give away RHD Petry, does the Larsson trade happen?

    Griff trade
    Hall trade
    Petry trade

    We can make the call on both GMs.

    Hence, we are here.

  98. Woogie63 says:

    Lowetide: Source?

    Beautiful

  99. HT Joe says:

    McSorley33:
    russ99,

    Scans the Oilers RHD depth chart…

    Again, if you are not willing to draft high end RHD. ….how does one obtain them?

    Our 2 high end LHD , Klefbom and Nurse, did not fall from th3 sky.

    I don’t mind the old BP available theory, ( like the efficient market theory?) but would request
    A detailed plan of how this org. Obtains one of hen.

    If the Oilers can target a really crummy organization, they should be able to pick up a #3/#4 RHD for a 2nd round pick and a 5th round pick at the trade deadline. They should be able to get a PP specialist RHD for a 3rd round pick.

  100. godot10 says:

    McSorley33:
    Cassandra,

    If McT does not give away RHD Petry, does the Larsson trade happen?

    Griff trade
    Hall trade
    Petry trade

    We can make the call on both GMs.

    Hence, we are here.

    If McLellan had put any effort into coaching Schultz, would the Hall trade have happened?

  101. Glass says:

    McSorley33,

    What I find interesting is no one seems to give you a reasonable response to this question. I totally agree with you though.

  102. Confused says:

    Glass,

    Basically, you draft and develop C and D, nobody is giving them up. Keeps the picks! The pipeline needs replenished constantly, at least good organizations do this.

  103. VOR says:

    I have a radical idea. The Oilers should switch to blue uniforms.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/11/sports/olympics/fastest-color.html

  104. HT Joe says:

    Glass:
    McSorley33,

    What I find interesting is no one seems to give you a reasonable response to this question. I totally agree with you though.

    Ok, I made a tongue-in-cheek response, but if the Oilers had both Petry and Schultz, that wouldn’t be the worst RHD depth. But both of those guys were mid-second round picks.

    And that D-man that many fans wanted to trade Drai, JP, and Nurse for a couple of years ago… PK Subban was also a mid-second round pick.

    That monster D-men who is now aging but was really good in his prime, whom Nashville traded for PK Subban… Weber was a late second round pick.

    Travis Hamonic? 2nd round pick. Zdeno Chara? 2nd round pick. Johnny Boychuk? 61st overall. I’m obviously handpicking here, but I’m also listing a lot of the RHD that posters from this site have lusted over during the last 6 years (some obviously are well past their best-before dates, but were really great in their primes).

    You don’t need to use a first round pick to draft and develop a good RHD defenseman.

  105. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    VOR:
    I have a radical idea. The Oilers should switch to blue uniforms.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/11/sports/olympics/fastest-color.html

    Sorry bud, nothing radical about it. I have already said this several times this season! The orange unis have got to go. Not only are they the root of all evil that has befallen this team, they make my eyes bleed all the way from Tokyo. Bring back the blue. 😉

  106. Confused says:

    VOR,

    Brilliant, perhaps we can get the other teams to download a social media app and Todd can mine the data.

  107. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    OilClog,

    MacT’s teams beat Dallas, Colorado, and Detroit in the playoffs when they had absolutely no business even being in the games.

    That’s not correct.

    MacT only ever won a playoff series as HC of EDM in 2006. That year he won 3.

    He won them vs. DET, SJS, ANA and then lost to CAR.

    EDM beat DAL in 1997 when Low was coach.

    EDM beat COL the next year in 1998 when Ron Low again was coach.

    EDM’s coaching history from Low on:

    Ron Low
    1994-95 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    1995-96 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    1996-97 Edmonton Oilers Lost in round 2
    1997-98 Edmonton Oilers Lost in round 2
    1998-99 Edmonton Oilers Lost in round 1
    Kevin Lowe
    1999-00 Edmonton Oilers Lost in round 1
    Craig MacTavish
    2000-01 Edmonton Oilers Lost in round 1
    2001-02 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    2002-03 Edmonton Oilers Lost in round 1
    2003-04 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    2005-06 Edmonton Oilers Lost in Finals
    2006-07 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    2007-08 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    2008-09 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    Pat Quinn
    2009-10 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    Tom Renney
    2010-11 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    2011-12 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    Ralph Krueger
    2012-13 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    Dallas Eakins
    2013-14 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    2014-15 Edmonton Oilers
    Todd Nelson
    2014-15 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    Todd McLellan
    2015-16 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs
    2016-17 Edmonton Oilers Lost in round 2
    2017-18 Edmonton Oilers Out of Playoffs

    That’s really something.

  108. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    VOR:
    I have a radical idea. The Oilers should switch to blue uniforms.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/11/sports/olympics/fastest-color.html

    Wearing hi-viz can’t help the PK.

  109. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Glass:
    Would anyone consider trading Drai for the right d? Someone like Ekblad or Petrangelo/Parayko.

    Slow down Pete, it doesn’t cost that much for someone not far off of that.

  110. flyfish1168 says:

    VOR:
    I have a radical idea. The Oilers should switch to blue uniforms.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/11/sports/olympics/fastest-color.html

    Of course, I just bought my 6th Oiler Jersey and now this.

  111. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Lowetide: Source?

    200 hockey men and 13 years of shot and goal data.

    There.

    2 sources.

  112. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Scungilli Slushy: Who are your upgrade targets?

    Upgrading what position on what team?

  113. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Woogie63: To be fair,

    One (good) rule on this blog is you must be able to demonstrate a source for your comment.Lots of player “issues” can’t /won’t be sourced,.In fairness to the player, this type of posts are outside the spirit of what LT has established here.

    However people who have played, coached, managed teams understand sometime the results from a player on the playing surface are not worth the trouble for the balance of the team.

    To be clear have no “inside” knowledge about Mr. Eichel

    To be clear:

    The best players are not the problem with bad teams.

  114. Scungilli Slushy says:

    McSorley33:
    russ99,

    Scans the Oilers RHD depth chart…

    Again, if you are not willing to draft high end RHD. ….how does one obtain them?

    Our 2 high end LHD , Klefbom and Nurse, did not fall from th3 sky.

    I don’t mind the old BP available theory, ( like the efficient market theory?) but would request
    A detailed plan of how this org. Obtains one of hen.

    BPA only works if there is a clear BPA. Almost always the top 3 lately. If it isn’t clear the trade market is so far from fluid now you take the BPA for the hole you most need to fill.

    Nearly every team deep at D drafted them. Sort of like how we are deep at C because we drafted 3 top end ones.

    Things change. I agree that centres and defense, especially right shot are the hen’s teeth. Left shot players are the vast majority. If you have to trade a player the most value comes here.

    Goalies are voodoo and if you find an elite one you don’t trade them until the tread is wearing but the wear bars aren’t obvious. If an elite draft eligible goalie is on the board you take them, the game is called mostly goalie according to some guy. And goalie according to the man who loves ties but won’t wear them.

  115. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Woodguy v2.0: Upgrading what position on what team?

    On the Oilers, as you see it. All positions. I have players I think don’t help. Just curious how you see it.

  116. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    N64: ~ Year 1: We’re in the playoffs. QED, nerd.
    Year 2: Ancient History, nerd. ~

    No shit eh?

  117. flyfish1168 says:

    godot10: If McLellan had put any effort into coaching Schultz, would the Hall trade have happened?

    He was damaged goods by the time Tmac got him

  118. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Scungilli Slushy: On the Oilers, as you see it. All positions. I have players I think don’t help. Just curious how you see it.

    That’s a big list.

    I like a lot of RHD, for 2 RD, that’s the most pressing issue.

    I saw an idea of Halak at 2.5 for a year to back up, that’s interesting. He was elite.

    I think we might see a new era of backup goalies being former starters making a decent cheque to play 25 games.

    2nd best back up in the league was 37 year old Ryan Miller.

    Maybe the key to old, previously elite goalies is give them an active semi-retirement?

    Lots of cheap forwards to try out but don’t have a list.

    Depends on a lot of things.

    Get a real 2RD is 1st and 2nd on my list.

  119. godot10 says:

    flyfish1168: He was damaged goods by the time Tmac got him

    He was damaged goods when Pittsburgh got him too. It didn’t stop them from “fixing” him.

  120. Wilde says:

    Man these press avails/town halls in the other postseasonless Canadian cities are some high-grade shit. The best.

    Whens ours? Come out Peter, the coast is clear!!

  121. Wilde says:

    flyfish1168: He was damaged goods by the time Tmac got him

    I just can’t buy this anymore.

    Almost every player shipped out was some loser reject by the way Todd walked in and disparaged the majority of the team in his first season here.

    Then now it’s the same weak coverage problems and ‘belief system’ failure with almost an entirely new roster. Who’s the common denominator?

    Like I said the other day, Kadri was damaged goods. Didn’t need to be traded. Hell, half those Leafs were deemed designated losers. The only guy Winnipeg shipped out was a guy who was banned from the entire night scene in the city, literally missed games, and broke dress codes unapologetically.

    Lots of cheap forwards to try out but don’t have a list.

    I have a list!!!

  122. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    Woodguy v2.0,

    – Ron Low: he squeezed a lot out of those teams. The Stars though, they basically owned us during those years. Then Lowe fired him, and did the same thing: lost to Stars. Then Lowe hired MacT who did the same thing: lost to Stars. Fn$ng Stars

    – Ron Low had a typical coaching run: starts coaching with a team that he played for: coached on the farm, was an assistant, became head coach. Gets fired. Goes back to to minors to coach then gets another crack. Lasts 2 years with the NYR. Gets fired, then works at lower rungs with other orgs. Never gets a shot again as head coach

    – Should Todd get the chance to be coach here next year, man he’s on a tight-rope.

    – Here’s a question: “what is a reasonable outcome for this team next year?”

    – So let say we hire the best coach available, and the team doesn’t do major surgery to roster. Are we ok if that coach gets us to the 2nd round again? If Todd stays, would we expect the same?

    – If Todd stays and we got to the semis: I’m sure the narrative would be: “see he can’t take a team all the way”

    – If we brought in a new coach who took us to the semi’s we would be:” see all we needed was a better coach, and we made it to the semis in his first year”

  123. flyfish1168 says:

    godot10: He was damaged goods when Pittsburgh got him too.It didn’t stop them from “fixing” him.

    He was, a new start with a veteran team and a different fan base goes a long way. Not being relied on to pay top pairing when you are not ready goes a long ways.

  124. jp says:

    Wilde:
    Man these press avails/town halls in the other postseasonless Canadian cities are some high-grade shit. The best.

    Whens ours? Come out Peter, the coast is clear!!

    Except the coast is NOT clear!

  125. jtblack says:

    Woodguy v2.0:
    OilClog,

    MacT’s teams beat Dallas, Colorado, and Detroit in the playoffs when they had absolutely no business even being in the games.

    That’s not correct.

    MacT only ever won a playoff series as HC of EDM in 2006.That year he won 3.

    He won them vs. DET, SJS, ANA and then lost to CAR.

    EDM beat DAL in 1997 when Low was coach.

    EDM beat COL the next year in 1998 when Ron Low again was coach.

    EDM’s coaching history from Low on:

    Ron Low
    1994-95Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    1995-96Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    1996-97Edmonton OilersLost in round 2
    1997-98Edmonton OilersLost in round 2
    1998-99Edmonton OilersLost in round 1
    Kevin Lowe
    1999-00Edmonton OilersLost in round 1
    Craig MacTavish
    2000-01Edmonton OilersLost in round 1
    2001-02Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    2002-03Edmonton OilersLost in round 1
    2003-04Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    2005-06Edmonton OilersLost in Finals
    2006-07Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    2007-08Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    2008-09Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    Pat Quinn
    2009-10Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    Tom Renney
    2010-11Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    2011-12Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    Ralph Krueger
    2012-13Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    Dallas Eakins
    2013-14Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    2014-15Edmonton Oilers
    Todd Nelson
    2014-15Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    Todd McLellan
    2015-16Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs
    2016-17Edmonton OilersLost in round 2
    2017-18Edmonton OilersOut of Playoffs

    That’s really something.

    Past Round 2 once in 25 years. That’s not good right? Holy F**ck

  126. Harpers Hair says:

    Confused:
    Glass,

    Basically, you draft and develop C and D, nobody is giving them up. Keeps the picks! The pipeline needs replenished constantly, at least good organizations do this.

    Ryan Johansen, Kyle Turris, Tyler Seguin, William Karlsson, Eric Staal, Brayden Schenn, Dustin Byfuglien, Dougie Hamilton, Jeff Petry and Mikhail,Sergachev, among many others all say hi.

    The organizations that traded away or for these players included Nashville, Boston, Tampa Bay and Winnipeg.

  127. Georges says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux: – Here’s a question: “what is a reasonable outcome for this team next year?”

    McLellan’s Oilers finished with a .476 P% in his 3rd season as coach.

    Here’s a list of other coaches since 2000-01 with a P% performance below .550 (less than 90 points) in their third season coaching their team. I’ve also included their tenure with the club.

    Tenure, Coach, 3rd season P%

    7, Marc Crawford-VAN-2001, .549
    3, Brent Sutter-CGY-2012, .549
    7, Pat Quinn-TOR-2001, .549
    5, Bob Hartley-ATL-2006, .549
    3, Gerard Gallant-FLA-2017, .548
    4, Peter DeBoer-NJD-2014, .537
    4, Paul MacLean-OTT-2014, .537
    5, Peter Laviolette-CAR-2007, .537
    4, Joe Sacco-COL-2012, .537
    3, Claude Julien-MTL-2006, .537
    4, Bill Peters-CAR-2017, .530
    4, Ron Wilson-TOR-2011, .518
    3, Jacques Martin-FLA-2008, .518
    3, Jacques Martin-MTL-2012, .516
    4, Randy Carlyle-TOR-2014, .512
    4, Larry Robinson-NJD-2002, .510
    3, Kirk Muller-CAR-2014, .506
    4, Wayne Gretzky-ARI-2008, .506
    3, Patrick Roy-COL-2016, .500
    3, Michel Therrien-MTL-2003, .489
    15, Barry Trotz-NSH-2001, .488
    5, Paul Maurice-WPG-2016, .476
    3, Davis Payne-STL-2012, .462
    3, Claude Noel-WPG-2014, .457
    3, Al MacNeil-CGY-2003, .455
    3, Cory Clouston-OTT-2011, .451
    3, Craig Hartsburg-ANA-2001, .439
    3, Peter DeBoer-FLA-2011, .439
    4, Glen Hanlon-WSH-2007, .427
    3, Dave King-CBJ-2003, .425
    3, Guy Boucher-TBL-2013, .422
    3, Tony Granato-COL-2009, .421
    3, Willie Desjardins-VAN-2017, .421
    3, Mike Keenan-FLA-2004, .400
    3, Denis Savard-CHI-2009, .375
    3, Gerard Gallant-CBJ-2007, .367
    3, Brian Sutter-CHI-2004, .360
    3, Greg Gilbert-CGY-2003, .360
    3, Terry Murray-FLA-2001, .333
    4, Curt Fraser-ATL-2002, .329
    3, Scott Gordon-NYI-2011, .324
    3, Mike Kitchen-STL-2007, .321
    3, Kevin Dineen-FLA-2014, .313

    If Paul Maurice gets the Jets to the semi’s, he’ll join Pat Quinn, who is currently the only HC on this list of 43 to accomplish that feat. (unless I’ve missed someone else…)

    So, with McLellan at the helm again next year, I’d say a reasonable outcome is… not good. But, hey, McLellan is exactly where Maurice was a couple of years ago, so, hey, why not, right? We can miss again next year and have a great fifth season.

    (Not intended to convince you kinger… or to start an argument… just info for the rest of the group.)

  128. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    jtblack: Past Round 2 once in 25 years.That’s not good right?Holy F**ck

    It’s one of the worst records in all of sports.

  129. VOR says:

    McSorley33:
    russ99,

    Scans the Oilers RHD depth chart…

    Again, if you are not willing to draft high end RHD. ….how does one obtain them?

    Our 2 high end LHD , Klefbom and Nurse, did not fall from th3 sky.

    I don’t mind the old BP available theory, ( like the efficient market theory?) but would request
    A detailed plan of how this org. Obtains one of hen.

    It really depends what happens with the draft lottery.

    Let’s say for sake of argument the Oilers move up to third. They trade that pick and their second rounder this year to the NYR for what becomes 8, 28 and 29.

    Keep 8 draft best scorer left, probably Veleno. Trade 28 to Canucks for Tanev, Trade 29 to Carolina for McKeown.

    Use remaining free agent dollars on Halak or similar maybe Francouz.

    The Oilers would now have stunning defensive depth. With better overall goaltending they would all look better as well. Defence fixed without drafting a D. Offence probably improved.

    Conversely, let’s say Oilers remain at 9 OV. They sign John Carlson in free agency. Then get Milan Lucic to waive his NMC and trade him and 9 to Carolina for Roland McKeown. Or to Arizona for Lawson Crouse. Pray salary cap goes up.

    I could go on.

    I can imagine an outrageous gamble the Oilers could take, Mike Green as the 3RD, with Chad Johnson as the backup goaltender. Both probably come cheap. Sign Michael Grabner. Draft BPA.

    I guess what I am saying is drafting a D might not be the only or even the best option.

  130. Wilde says:

    Georges:

    If Paul Maurice gets the Jets to the semi’s, he’ll join Pat Quinn, who is currently the only HC on this list of 43 to accomplish that feat. (unless I’ve missed someone else…)

    So, with McLellan at the helm again next year, I’d say a reasonable outcome is… not good. But, hey, McLellan is exactly where Maurice was a couple of years ago, so, hey, why not, right? We can miss again next year and have a great fifth season.

    Maurice’s 2015-16 Jets were a 78 point team too.

    ~spooky~

  131. Georges says:

    NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker): It’s one of the worst records in all of sports.

    The ATL-WPG franchise hasn’t won a playoff round in its first 17 years of existence. Imagine if they don’t break that streak this year! (Actually, I don’t think that franchise has won a playoff game yet. No pressure. No pressure at all.)

    CBJ hasn’t won a playoff round in its first 16 seasons either.

    The Jets-Coyotes franchise has made it past round 2 just once in 25 years. The only year they won a playoff round, they managed to win two. Nothing other than that one season.

    FLA made the Finals once in 24 years. No other years in which they won a playoff round.

    NYI made it to the semi’s in 92-93. Only one other playoff series win since then.

    MIN made the semi’s once in 16 years. Two other years in which they won a playoff round.

    CGY made it to the Finals once in 25 years. Only one other year in which they won a playoff round.

    We’ve made the Finals once in 25 years. 3 other years in which we won a playoff round.

    NSH made the Finals for the first time in 18 seasons last year. Also the first time they made the semi’s. They’d won a round just 3 times before that. They’re favored (?) to win it all so maybe worth the wait.

    And then there’s WSH. Only one semi-final appearance in 25 years. They also made the Finals that same year. 7 other years in which they won a round but couldn’t make the semi’s.

    A League of Our Own.

  132. who says:

    VOR: It really depends what happens with the draft lottery.

    Let’s say for sake of argument the Oilers move up to third. They trade that pick and their second rounder this year to the NYR for what becomes 8, 28 and 29.

    Keep 8 draft best scorer left, probably Veleno. Trade 28 to Canucks for Tanev, Trade 29 to Carolina for McKeown.

    Use remaining free agent dollars on Halak or similar maybe Francouz.

    The Oilers would now have stunning defensive depth. With better overall goaltending they would all look better as well. Defence fixed without drafting a D. Offence probably improved.

    Conversely, let’s say Oilers remain at 9 OV. They sign John Carlson in free agency. Then get Milan Lucic to waive his NMC and trade him and 9 to Carolina for Roland McKeown. Or to Arizona for Lawson Crouse. Pray salary cap goes up.

    I could go on.

    I can imagine an outrageous gamble the Oilers could take, Mike Green as the 3RD, with Chad Johnson as the backup goaltender. Both probably come cheap. Sign Michael Grabner. Draft BPA.

    I guess what I am saying is drafting a D might not be the only or even the best option.

    Interesting theory about moving down in the draft but the chances of all those dominoes falling into place are miniscule.
    You start with the premise that Oilers pick 3rd. I believe there’s a 15% chance that they pick third or higher. Those are long odds to start with. And what are the odds Vancouver trades Tanev for a late first rounder? I would say they are just as long or longer.
    So if there’s a 15% chance of the first event compounded by a 15% chance of the second event it seems to me we have a better chance of just winning the lottery.
    The math geniuses on here can correct me if I’m wrong but your premise seems highly unlikely.

  133. Jaxon says:

    Woodguy v2.0:
    Jaxon,


    Consensus draft says:
    1. Dahlin
    2. Svechnikov
    3. Zadina
    4. Tkachuk
    5. Boqvist
    6. Hughes
    7. Bouchard
    8. Wahlstrom


    Those players will likely be gone when Edmonton drafts.

    Its really rare when the top 8 go according to Hoyle.

    Someone in your top 8 will still be there at 9 and maybe 10.

    I remember watching Fowler drop from 3 to 12.

    ANA shit their pants.

    They had him “2 levels above everyone else available”, or so the story goes.

    Absolutely. I checked back over previous drafts against MyNHLDraft’s site (they use a decent consensus system for their rankings). I’m not sure if ayone will find this interesting, but I’ll include it here. 17 players ranked in the top 8 have dropped out of the top 8 at the draft in the past 11 drafts, or 1.54 per draft.
    Nobody ranked #1,2 or 3 dropped out of the top 8.

    #4 Ranked
    Cherepanov #17 (-13)
    Fowler #12 (-8)
    Forsberg #11 (-7)

    #5 Ranked
    Grigorenko #12 (-7)
    Nichushkin #10 (-5)

    #6 Ranked
    Cowen #9 (-3)
    Gormley #13 (-7)
    Ritchie #10 (-4)

    #7 Ranked
    Paajarvi #10 (-3)
    Sergachyov #9 (-2)
    Vilardi #11 (-4)

    #8 Ranked
    Elerby #10 (-2)
    Myers #12 (-4)
    Kulikov #14 (-6)
    Hamilton #9 (-1)
    Teravainen #18 (-10)
    Tippet #10 (-2)

    Not sure if this is any indication that scouting and data use are improving but, in the last 5 years, only 5 players have dropped out of the top 8.
    In the last 5 years, no player ranked #4 or higher has dropped out. Nichushkin dropped from #5 to #10. Ritchie dropped from #6 to #10. Sergachyov dropped from #7 to #9, and last year Vilardi dropped from #7 to #11 and Tippet dropped from #8 to #10. Nobody dropped out of top 8 rankings in 2015.

    So if the numbers from the last 5 drafts hold then we can expect one of Boqvist, Hughes, Bouchard or Wahlstrom to fall to #9. If it’s Boqvist or Bouchard, I’d take them. If it’s Hughes, I’d definitely take Veleno. If it’s Wahlstrom, that would be a tough choice, but I’d still lean toward the more versatile Veleno. If we’re drafting later and Boqvist, Veleno and Bouchard are gone, I’d take a gamble on Merkley for his offensive upside.

  134. VOR says:

    who: Interesting theory about moving down in the draft but the chances of all those dominoes falling into place are miniscule.
    You start with the premise that Oilers pick 3rd. I believe there’s a 15% chance that they pick third or higher. Those are long odds to start with. And what are the odds Vancouver trades Tanev for a late first rounder? I would say they are just as long or longer.
    So if there’s a 15% chance of the first event compounded by a 15% chance of the second event it seems to me we have a better chance of just winning the lottery.
    The math geniuses on here can correct me if I’m wrong but your premise seems highly unlikely.

    I think you misunderstood the point of my post. That is undoubtedly my fault. In response to a post I gamed some scenarios that didn’t involve drafting D to get a high end defensemen.

    I could honestly go on and on crafting alternatives. Every scenario would have pros and cons and various odds of happening. I didn’t claim it was an exhaustive list. My goal was to broaden the discourse, to create more life options.

    Bad decision making is often the result of a paucity even a vacuum of alternative voices and ideas. I am trying to put more options on the table. Because if the Oilers 15% chance of drafting in the top 3 pays off then they need to maximize the scenarios that are being considered in that outcome thread. If the Oilers stay at 9 then there should be dozens of options/scenario arising from that outcome thread. If the Oilers fall further than 9 there needs to be a set of scenarios for maximizing that outcome thread.

    You aren’t wrong about the odds but it is not good practice to pare the heuristic tree by saying something can’t happen. If the Oilers are drafting third my proposed trade is a fair value offer. The Rangers might say no but it never hurts to ask. Maybe they counter propose something interesting and begin a negotiation. Saying it is unlikely and thus we shouldn’t consider it is the antithesis of what I believe to be best practice decision making.

    We, and Oilers management, need to consider more options not fewer if we want to end more than a decade of bad decision making.

  135. VOR says:

    Jaxon: Absolutely. I checked back over previous drafts against MyNHLDraft’s site (they use a decent consensus system for their rankings). I’m not sure if ayone will find this interesting, but I’ll include it here. 17 players ranked in the top 8 have dropped out of the top 8 at the draft in the past 11 drafts, or 1.54 per draft.
    Nobody ranked #1,2 or 3 dropped out of the top 8.

    #4 Ranked
    Cherepanov #17 (-13)
    Fowler #12 (-8)
    Forsberg #11 (-7)

    #5 Ranked
    Grigorenko #12 (-7)
    Nichushkin #10 (-5)

    #6 Ranked
    Cowen #9 (-3)
    Gormley #13 (-7)
    Ritchie #10 (-4)

    #7 Ranked
    Paajarvi #10 (-3)
    Sergachyov #9 (-2)
    Vilardi #11 (-4)

    #8 Ranked
    Elerby #10 (-2)
    Myers #12 (-4)
    Kulikov #14 (-6)
    Hamilton #9 (-1)
    Teravainen #18 (-10)
    Tippet #10 (-2)

    Not sure if this is any indication that scouting and data use are improving but, in the last 5 years, only 5 players have dropped out of the top 8.
    In the last 5 years, no player ranked #4 or higher has dropped out. Nichushkin dropped from #5 to #10. Ritchie dropped from #6 to #10. Sergachyov dropped from #7 to #9, and last year Vilardi dropped from #7 to #11 and Tippet dropped from #8 to #10. Nobody dropped out of top 8 rankings in 2015.

    So if the numbers from the last 5 drafts hold then we can expect one of Boqvist, Hughes, Bouchard or Wahlstrom to fall to #9. If it’s Boqvist or Bouchard, I’d take them. If it’s Hughes, I’d definitely take Veleno. If it’s Wahlstrom, that would be a tough choice, but I’d still lean toward the more versatile Veleno. If we’re drafting later and Boqvist, Veleno and Bouchard are gone, I’d take a gamble on Merkley for his offensive upside.

    I don’t think we should assume drafting is getting better if the consensus is followed on draft day. The tyranny of ranking systems is as Serge Savard pointed out the enemy of draft optimization. Worse, these days GMs seem determined to ride these kids hard and put them away wet in a desperate attempt to prove they picked the right kid. It is also of course about cheap help at key positions.

    In any case over time the old adages remain true. We can see this playing out now in the extraordinary 2011 draft. Try redrafting it. It is in no way an optimized draft. But consensus was followed to a large extent at the top end of that draft.

    Consensus is about letting the crowd pick your draft choice, and a tiny crowd at that. A common decision making problem is allowing your social circle make decisions for you. This protects you from responsibility if anything goes wrong. But it turns you into a lemming. We even have a word for it. We call it peer pressure.

  136. Dominoiler says:

    Hey LT, and anyone else that may want to chime in,

    What do you think about looking at Lukas Dostal in the 2nd round?.. I have no idea about this player, just has some really nice numbers, quite consistently thus far too..

    (36) G Lukas Dostal, Brno (Czech). Fabulous numbers over the last two seasons.

    Also, is there relative consensus on the Oilers Draft needs (outside of winning the lottery)?

    RW / RC, RD, LW, G, LD .. this is roughly what I think it would be..

    Exceptions being BPA, of course, and Im not sure where to rank the need for a high end goaltending prospect.. Are there too many holes in the lineup that they cant afford to gamble on goalie voodoo?..

  137. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    Georges: The ATL-WPG franchise hasn’t won a playoff round in its first 17 years of existence. Imagine if they don’t break that streak this year! (Actually, I don’t think that franchise has won a playoff game yet. No pressure. No pressure at all.)

    CBJ hasn’t won a playoff round in its first 16 seasons either.

    The Jets-Coyotes franchise has made it past round 2 just once in 25 years. The only year they won a playoff round, they managed to win two. Nothing other than that one season.

    FLA made the Finals once in 24 years. No other years in which they won a playoff round.

    NYI made it to the semi’s in 92-93. Only one other playoff series win since then.

    MIN made the semi’s once in 16 years. Two other years in which they won a playoff round.

    CGY made it to the Finals once in 25 years. Only one other year in which they won a playoff round.

    We’ve made the Finals once in 25 years. 3 other years in which we won a playoff round.

    NSH made the Finals for the first time in 18 seasons last year. Also the first time they made the semi’s. They’d won a roundjust 3 times before that. They’re favored (?) to win it all so maybe worth the wait.

    And then there’s WSH. Only one semi-final appearance in 25 years. They also made the Finals that same year. 7 other years in which they won a round but couldn’t make the semi’s.

    A League of Our Own.

    Thanks. I didn’t say we were uniquely bad. Just that we are among the worst in sports over the past 25 years. Those other teams? Yeesh as well.

  138. NYC-Back-to-Tokyo Oil (Gentleman Backpacker) says:

    And again, for me it’s the one and only one playoff appearance since 2006. In a team where more teams make than miss the playoffs, how does this franchise go 1 for 12 and tell fans it’s going to plan?

  139. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux:
    Woodguy v2.0,

    – Ron Low: he squeezed a lot out of those teams.The Stars though, they basically owned us during those years. Then Lowe fired him, and did the same thing: lost to Stars.Then Lowe hired MacT who did the same thing: lost to Stars. Fn$ng Stars

    – Ron Low had a typical coaching run:starts coaching with a team that he played for: coached on the farm, was an assistant, became head coach.Gets fired.Goes back to to minors to coach then gets another crack.Lasts 2 years with the NYR.Gets fired, then works at lower rungs with other orgs.Never gets a shot again as head coach

    – Should Todd get the chance to be coach here next year, man he’s on a tight-rope.

    – Here’s a question: “what is a reasonable outcome for this team next year?”

    – So let say we hire the best coach available, and the team doesn’t do major surgery to roster.Are we ok if that coach gets us to the 2nd round again?If Todd stays, would we expect the same?

    – If Todd stays and we got to the semis: I’m sure the narrative would be: “see he can’t take a team all the way”

    – If we brought in a new coach who took us to the semi’s we would be:” see all we needed was a better coach, and we made it to the semis in his first year”

    If they fix 2RD and there is reasonable health then making the playoffs and winning one round is a reasonable goal.

    Doing that with 29 and 97 playing minimal time together 5v5.

    Having a back up who can start 20 games so Talbot isn’t over used.

    Also,

    They should really find their next goalie this summer too if possible.

  140. ArmchairGM says:

    VOR: It really depends what happens with the draft lottery.

    Let’s say for sake of argument the Oilers move up to third. They trade that pick and their second rounder this year to the NYR for what becomes 8, 28 and 29.

    Keep 8 draft best scorer left, probably Veleno. Trade 28 to Canucks for Tanev, Trade 29 to Carolina for McKeown.

    Use remaining free agent dollars on Halak or similar maybe Francouz.

    The Oilers would now have stunning defensive depth. With better overall goaltending they would all look better as well. Defence fixed without drafting a D. Offence probably improved.

    Conversely, let’s say Oilers remain at 9 OV. They sign John Carlson in free agency. Then get Milan Lucic to waive his NMC and trade him and 9 to Carolina for Roland McKeown. Or to Arizona for Lawson Crouse. Pray salary cap goes up.

    I could go on.

    I can imagine an outrageous gamble the Oilers could take, Mike Green as the 3RD, with Chad Johnson as the backup goaltender. Both probably come cheap. Sign Michael Grabner. Draft BPA.

    I guess what I am saying is drafting a D might not be the only or even the best option.

    Repeat after me: LAWSON CROUSE SUCKS!

  141. who says:

    VOR: I think you misunderstood the point of my post. That is undoubtedly my fault. In response to a post I gamed some scenarios that didn’t involve drafting D to get a high end defensemen.

    I could honestly go on and on crafting alternatives. Every scenario would have pros and cons and various odds of happening. I didn’t claim it was an exhaustive list. My goal was to broaden the discourse, to create more life options.

    Bad decision making is often the result of a paucity even a vacuum of alternative voices and ideas. I am trying to put more options on the table. Because if the Oilers 15% chance of drafting in the top 3 pays off then they need to maximize the scenarios that are being considered in that outcome thread. If the Oilers stay at 9 then there should be dozens of options/scenario arising from that outcome thread. If the Oilers fall further than 9 there needs to be a set of scenarios for maximizing that outcome thread.

    You aren’t wrong about the odds but it is not good practice to pare the heuristic tree by saying something can’t happen. If the Oilers are drafting third my proposed trade is a fair value offer. The Rangers might say no but it never hurts to ask. Maybe they counter propose something interesting and begin a negotiation. Saying it is unlikely and thus we shouldn’t consider it is the antithesis of what I believe to be best practice decision making.

    We, and Oilers management, need to consider more options not fewer if we want to end more than a decade of bad decision making.

    You make some very good points. And I agree with you that the Oilers should remain open to all possibilities.
    I just don’t think the scenarios of trading down are as rosey as you are painting them. If they could turn #3 and #40 into #8 and Tanev and McKeown by all means do it. I just don’t think it’s plausible. Perhaps this example puts trading down in a much better light than is warranted.
    Although I am probably biased against trading a top 3 pick. I am a big believer in drafting elite talent and MOST teams don’t get that many cracks at a top 3 pick.
    Unless Oilers.

  142. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    Georges,

    – Thanks for this. Most teams on there: Scotty Bowman in his prime doesn’t stand a chance

    – Did we over-value our team this year, or did just the Coach be bad, or was it bad luck, or did Chia just make the team bad or what combination of these.

    – My hyperbole about caracterizing arguments anti-Chia or Coach as “Chia is sh%t” didn’t help, as it was agressive rather than participative. It was also out of anger for the season

    – Next year, with some new players, and possibly a new coach, we will be comparing apples to oranges. Some will be “vindicated” if a new coach and new players = better result than this year

    – What’s striking about this list is how truly awful some of those teams were, and how many coaches careers ended with those teams

    – While my preference has been to keep the coach, next year’s results will be independent of this.

    – I promise to not comment going forward on if this coach stays and does well or not to say: “told you so”. If he stays and the teams still sucks, I will own it.

    – I also won’t make inferences about what the team does next year with possibly a new coach

    GOILERS

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