Needles and Pins

Did you know many of Peter Chiarelli’s trades resemble previous Peter Chiarelli trades? I bet you do. The deal that sent Jordan Eberle to NY Islanders for Ryan Strome brought back a similar player in Brett Connolly (who cost two second-round picks, one of whom was Boris Katchouk). You might think two years of Eberle is worth more than two second rounders, but it probably depends on where you are in the franchise cycle. Either way, hockey-reference tells me Connolly and Strome are pretty close in terms of goals-per-game, were drafted in the top six and have been considered disappointments at one or more junctures since turning pro. Are there any comparables for PC’s coming “summer trade for a puck moving RHD”? Turns out, there is!

THE ATHLETIC!

Great playoff special! Try The Athletic on for size free and see if they enjoy the in-depth, ad-free coverage on the site. Offer is here.

  • New Jonathan Willis: A look at which Oilers could stay and which could go this summer
  • New Lowetide: Everything you ever wanted to know about Joel Persson but were afraid to ask.
  • Lowetide: Ethan Bear says hello, but is not yet NHL-ready.
  • Lowetide: Andrej Sekera: Insult to injury.
  • Jonathan Willis: Yohann Auvitu: Oilers need to get more from players like him.
  • Jonathan Willis: Matt Benning brings value to the Oilers.
  • Scott Wheeler: Final Draft Rankings 2018.
  • Lowetide: Oilers summer to-do list short and sweet.
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: The Oilers and Russia: A draft tragedy.
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: The Oilers and the Republic of Finland
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: The Oilers and Sweden.
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: The Oilers and the QMJHL.
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018Oilers and the WHL.
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: Oilers draft history and the OHL
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: The Oilers and the NCAA.
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: The Oilers at the draft: Overagers.
  • Lowetide: Draft 2018: Oilers scouting directors: A history.

 PC TRADES FOR OFFENSIVE BLUE

  • February 27, 2007: Traded Brad Boyes to St. Louis for Dennis Wideman. Benefited both teams, Wideman posted seasons of 36, 50 and 30 points. Boyes scored 43, 33 and 14 goals in the three following campaigns. Both had solid careers, Boyes was a first-round pick who spent three seasons in the AHL. He scored 30+ goals in each of those seasons. He had a strong NHL debut (82gp, 26-43-69) in 2005-06 at the age of 23 but had fallen off (62gp, 13-21-34) the following season, leading to his trade.

I’d say the closest comp for Boyes at that point in his career would be Kailer Yamamoto. Younger, not yet established, but skilled and KY would have enough value to get something back in trade. A better comp for value might be one of Edmonton’s young blue.

SCOTT CULLEN’S LIST

Scott Cullen’s off-season game plan for the Edmonton Oilers is a terrific piece of work and I recommend it. A year ago, using my list of needs, here’s what he came up with:

  1. Negotiate the expansion draft rapids without giving up a valuable piece of the future. (Lost Jujhar Khaira). 
  2. Find a way to trade Benoit Pouliot off the roster. (Cullen kept him)
  3. Find a second pairing D with two-way acumen. (Travis Hamonic) 
  4. Find a stopgap measure to replace Andrej Sekera’s minutes until he returns. (Kris Russell)
  5. Find a C-R who can help the offense and cover off where Leon isn’t at the time. (Patrick Marleau)
  6. Make enough cap room to get everyone in under the number with enough room to spare for the trade deadline. (Traded Jordan Eberle)
  7. Source.

Scott’s 2018 spring edition of the Oilers offseason gameplan should be up today or tomorrow. I’ll have him on the Lowdown tomorrow morning to discuss his moves.

I’ll tell you, I think it might be Torey Krug. The Bruins have him signed through 2020 summer, and a modified NTC kicks in this summer. So, the window to trade him is about 10 weeks from today. Why would they trade him? Fluto Shinzawa wrote “the question the Bruins need to answer is whether Krug’s offensive touch is worth the defensive compromise” at The Athletic recently. Joe McDonald, also at The Athletic, wrote “If (general manager Don) Sweeney decides to package a player like Torey Krug, who’s still under contract for another two seasons with a cap hit of $5.25 million, in exchange for a first-round pick, it could also give the Bruins flexibility to acquire an elite left-handed defenseman to play with McAvoy as a top pair.”

Reading the tea leaves, packaging Oscar Klefbom and the No. 10 overall selection would satisfy the needs Mr. Shinzawa and Mr. McDonald are suggesting in their respective articles. What would Edmonton receive in return, aside from Torey Krug? It would have to be (in my opinion) a fast skill winger who can shoot the puck. Danton Heinen? He went 77, 16-31-47 this season and has good boots, not sure Boston would trade him.

I think there’s a deal there.

LOWDOWN WITH LOWETIDE

No Lowdown today, we’re back tomorrow with Steve Lansky, Scott Cullen and more! For today, it’s Canada-Russia (1-0 CAN currently) and I’ll be along with Dave Jamieson after the game (11:20) to find new ways to describe Connor McDavid. Send words!

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190 Responses to "Needles and Pins"

  1. leadfarmer says:

    They were reportedly interested in Heinen early on in the season.
    That deal is far too rich for my tastes so i guess its probably a possibility.
    A desperate Chia trying to hold on to his job is a disaster waiting to happen. Just fire him already

  2. Dustylegnd says:

    Watching the World Championship game, good lord can Parayko shoot the puck, classic McDavid drives the D back with speed and drops the puck, Parayko pushes up to be an offensive option and just obliterates the puck for the opening goal…..magic

    Mathew Barzal remins me of McDavid the way he skates and handles the puck, unbelievable talent

    Ederle is blessed again to have Barzal as a centre and god bless Ebbs he is taking advantage of a very talented line mate

    I miss Ray Ferraro, by far the most astute colour man in the game, an original too, tells it like it is….how HNIC hasn’t poached this guy I will never know…

    Oxymoron of the day ….Craig Simpson and Coulor commentator ….I guess grey/beige is a colour

  3. fifthcartel says:

    Trading for Krug would be a classic Chairelli move.

    Krug scored 59 points this season. Another Buy High Sell Low Chiarelli transaction.

    Doesn’t address the righty-lefty balance and banks on Nurse maintaining his play from early last season or Sekera returning to form. No 2RHD means Russell in the top four.

    A top-four of Nurse/Larsson/Krug/Sekera or Russell isn’t good enough. Depending on Sekera, that’s maybe two guys who are good with the puck.

  4. flyfish1168 says:

    fifthcartel:
    Trading for Krug would be a classic Chairelli move.

    Krug scored 59 points this season. Another Buy High Sell Low Chiarelli transaction.

    Doesn’t address the righty-lefty balance and banks on Nurse maintaining his play from early last season or Sekera returning to form. No 2RHD means Russell in the top four.

    A top-four of Nurse/Larsson/Krug/Sekera or Russell isn’t good enough. Depending on Sekera, that’s maybe two guys who are good with the puck.

    I agree. Its PC way of ki$$ing a$$ with the Bruins Brass. The more he talks the more I loose confidence in him.

  5. Dustylegnd says:

    leadfarmer:

    That deal is far too rich for my tastes so i guess its probably a possibility.
    A desperate Chia trying to hold on to his job is a disaster waiting to happen.Just fire him already

    I honestly believe Chia is operating with an oversight committee re: Big Game Hunting…..I just can’t see Katz granting Chia free-will on trades…..Katz understands how dangerous a wounded animal is (he has seen enough in business)

    Now if Chia dos have an oversight committee we are possibly in even more trouble than Chia on the loose…hard to say

  6. Dustylegnd says:

    flyfish1168: I agree. Its PC way of ki$$ing a$$ with the Bruins Brass. The more he talks the more I loose confidence in him.

    Why would Chia kiss the ass of the People who ran him out of town on rails? Cam Neely literally hates Chia…I don’t understand your take

  7. Lowetide says:

    Dustylegnd: I honestly believe Chia is operating with an oversight committee re: Big Game Hunting…..I just can’t see Katz granting Chia free-will on trades…..Katz understands how dangerous a wounded animal is (he has seen enough in business)

    Now if Chia dos have an oversight committee we are possibly in even more trouble than Chia on the loose…hard to say

    I was going to say, are we comfortable with the oversight committee? 🙂

  8. Dustylegnd says:

    Lowetide,

    After further review, I am even more uncomfortable with an oversight committee than Chia on the loose, only because the lot of them are part time, and wholly unproven as managers of successful hockey organizations

  9. Woogie63 says:

    CapFriendly – NMC or NTC per team

    Wings 10
    Stars 9
    TBL 9
    Ducks 8
    Flames 8
    Sharks 8
    Jets 7
    Canucks 7
    Boston 7
    CBH 7
    Azi 6
    Wild 6
    Pittsburg 6
    TML 5
    Sens 5
    NJD 5
    Hurricanes 5
    Caps 5
    Oilers 4
    VGK 4
    CBJ 4
    LAK 4
    NYR 4
    Flyers 4
    Blues 4
    NYI 3
    Sabres 3
    Panthers 3
    Habs 3
    Preds 2
    Avs 2

  10. leadfarmer says:

    Lowetide: I was going to say, are we comfortable with the oversight committee?

    I’d be quite content if they brought in an outside GM that spent the year evaluating and doing a few small moves

  11. Lowetide says:

    Dustylegnd:
    Lowetide,

    After further review, I am even more uncomfortable with an oversight committee than Chia on the loose, only because the lot of them are part time, and wholly unproven as managers of successful hockey organizations

    If I’m Chiarelli, I get everyone to sign off on all deals. If they explode, everyone’s guilty. I bet a Harvard man had already thought of that idea.

  12. godot10 says:

    My guess is that Chiarelli is free to operate within the context of a plan (his own) that has been presented and approved by Katz and Nicholson. If he wants to do something outside of his plan, then he has to present a new plan.

    One can be reasonably certain that potentially trading #10OV and potentially trading Klefbom are already part of the plan. A plan would clearly include potential assets out.

  13. Wilde says:

    Lowetide: If I’m Chiarelli, I get everyone to sign off on all deals. If they explode, everyone’s guilty. I bet a Harvard man had already thought of that idea.

    He’d already be gone and we’d be past a few “yeah those were his ideas” press conferences by today if this wasn’t the case.

  14. Richard S.S. says:

    Oscar Klefbom is a very good, perhaps even an exceptional 1st Pairing LHD, but he will never be a top #1D. Still, paired with Adam Larsson they made a very good, perhaps even exceptional 1st Pairing D. I would move Oscar Klefbom for a true #1 stud LHD. It would have to be for something special otherwise.

    Would Boston trade with Chiarelli? I might go Darnell Nurse and 10 for a D, a W and a 4th rounder. Would Boston?

    Is Joel Persson still playing in the Worlds?

  15. Stud Muffin says:

    Klefbom>Krug
    10th overall>Heinen

    I don’t see where there is a deal anywhere there.
    I think we can do better by standing pat and keeping Klefbom/10th.
    Add a couple wingers and add a right hand D if it the opportunity presents itself and it makes sense.

  16. Dustylegnd says:

    Nuge with the beautiful snapper from the kill zone on the PP ….assisted by McDavid…music

  17. Pink Socks says:

    Stud Muffin:
    Klefbom>Krug
    10th overall>Heinen

    This should be stapled to Chiarelli’s forehead.

  18. bendelson says:

    Re: trading Klefbom.
    Who here is comfortable with Nurse, Sekera and Russell as your top three LD?
    Yeah, me neither.

  19. McSorley33 says:

    Watching Luca Sbisa play D is painful to the eyes.

    Ladies and Gentlemen – Reinheart cannot overtake Luca Sbisa….wow.

  20. SwedishPoster says:

    The experts on swedish TV, among others Nick Lidström, are quite critical of McDavid’s defensive effort and lack of backchecking. Are they out to lunch? I’ve only had the game on in the background so can’t really say if I agree.

    What are the canadian commentators saying?

  21. Rondo says:

    bendelson,

    More I see Nurse the more I see he doesn’t have the hockey IQ to be a top pairing D-man.

  22. McSorley33 says:

    Like with the Reinheart trade…does PC even know that Krug is a LHD?

  23. Rondo says:

    McSorley33,

    PC is an incompetent GM. His track record speaks volumes. I have no faith in him to make a good trade.

  24. McSorley33 says:

    Most feared words in hockey used to be:

    “Let’m go!”

    Now, they are “PC is big game hunting”

    Because if there is one thing he ( Chiarelli ) has proven to be adept at …..it is *obtaining* big game.

  25. who says:

    All this talk of trading for RR from Buffalo is ridiculous. Why would the Sabres trade him? Although I guess Klefbom and 10OV might be enough of an overpay to get it done.
    Buffalo is in an interesting spot right now. They are essentially in the same position the Oilers were after they won the Mcdavid lotto.
    If Dahlin is their Mcdavid and Eichel is their Hall we can draw some interesting comparisons.
    Okposo Eberle
    OReilly Nuge
    RR Klefbom
    Middlestat Drai
    Nylander Yakapov
    McCabe Nurse
    Bealieu Schulz
    Reinhart Gagne
    Am I missing any key pieces?
    The difference is Buffalo has a couple of solid veteran dmen in Scandela and Bogosian and the makings of a pretty solid dcore. They may not be quite as deep in high end talent up front but they have some nice pieces.
    If Buffalo is smart they will show more patience than Edmonton did and not make any stupid moves to try and win right away. Trading RR would be a stupid move.

  26. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    Lowetide: If I’m Chiarelli, I get everyone to sign off on all deals. If they explode, everyone’s guilty. I bet a Harvard man had already thought of that idea.

    – This has to be exactly right

    – No way did Chia trade for Griffen alone (I believe he worked the Hamilton trade alone), then the whole brain thrust had to agree with the Griff, and Chia would have protected himself

    – Same with Hall: no way he doesn’t protect himself. OBC was champing at bit to get rid of Hall. Chia gets red light to go for Lucic, and find the best D he can in a trade.

    – Chia will get fired one day, these trades will be highlighted. Chia will get hired by another org as GM, because everyone knows the sequence of events, and the cluster-f$ck Chia had to manage

    * If Chia trades the 10th and Klef for a offensive D, then he is truly an idiot. Maybe you do that for OEL, and reverse draft #1 picks or something, but all these proposals are nonesense IMO

  27. jtblack says:

    McSorley33:
    Watching Luca Sbisa play D is painful to the eyes.

    Ladies and Gentlemen – Reinheart cannot overtake Luca Sbisa….wow.

    I watched last night and texted my buddy that “SBISA is the worst D man in the NHL”. slow is an understatement. after getting hemmed in on his 1st 2 shifts I thought Gallant might staple him to the bench.

    He is Awful

  28. Yeti says:

    bendelson:
    Re:trading Klefbom.
    Who here is comfortable with Nurse, Sekera and Russell as your top three LD?
    Yeah, me neither.

    Indeed. The trouble is that there are likely 0 potential courses of action that are going to make everyone comfortable.

  29. jtblack says:

    who:
    All this talk of trading for RR from Buffalo is ridiculous. Why would the Sabres trade him? Although I guess Klefbom and 10OV might be enough of an overpay to get it done.
    Buffalo is an interesting spot right now. They are essentially in the same position the Oilers were after they won the Mcdavid lotto.
    If Dahlin is their Mcdavid and Eichel is their Hall we can draw some interesting comparisons.
    OkposoEberle
    OReillyNuge
    RR Klefbom
    Middlestat Drai
    NylanderYakapov
    McCabe Nurse
    Bealieu Schulz
    Reinhart Gagne
    Am I missing any key pieces?
    The difference is Buffalo has a couple of solid veteran dmen in Scandela and Bogosian and the makings of a pretty solid dcore. They may not be quite as deep in high end talent up front but they have some nice pieces.
    If Buffalo is smart they will show more patience than Edmonton did and not make any stupid moves to try and win right away. Trading RR would be a stupid move.

    Good stuff.

  30. Scungilli Slushy says:

    leadfarmer:
    They were reportedly interested in Heinen early on in the season.
    That deal is far too rich for my tastes so i guess its probably a possibility.
    A desperate Chia trying to hold on to his job is a disaster waiting to happen.Just fire him already

    Krug and Heinen for 10 and Klefbom.

    Klefbom is better overall than Krug, cheaper and younger, and Krug is a LHD.

    So that loss is compounded by paying a 10 OV for Heinen. That would be great GM’ing. Why can’t it go our way once in a while?

  31. dustrock says:

    What if it’s Krug and Henein for Klefbom and the 10th isn’t part of it?

    Does that change your mind?

  32. Pink Socks says:

    Scungilli Slushy: Krug and Heinen for 10 and Klefbom.

    Klefbom is better overall than Krug, cheaper and younger, and Krug is a LHD.

    So that loss is compounded by paying a 10 OV for Heinen. That would be great GM’ing. Why can’t it go our way once in a while?

    Krug and Heinen for 10 and Klefbom would honestly make me think that PC is intentionally sewering the organization

  33. Pink Socks says:

    And also, man has Keumper ever been horrible.

  34. jtblack says:

    excellent 2015 RE-DRAFT article on The Athletic. Very Interesting.

  35. McSorley33 says:

    Just a reminder Heinen was taken in the 4th round of the 2014 draft.

    I have no idea if he is the goods. He had a good year last year.

    Unsure why people think Boston is now willing to trade with PC?

    I thought that is why we did not get Hamilton because of animosity?

    I don’t know I am just asking…

  36. jtblack says:

    Recent #10OV

    2017- TIPPETT : too soon
    2016 – JOST : looks promising already Great arrows
    2015 – RANTANEN : stud
    2014 – RITCHIE : everyday player. game has changed. dont see him living up to draft day expectations.

    The odds are very good of getting an everyday player @ #10 & there is an outside shot at getting an Impact player.

    I HOPE PETER KEEPS THE PICK.

  37. jtblack says:

    Keep in mind only 2 players from 2017 draft skated in the nhl last season.

    No #10 has played as an 18 year old in the last 4 years.

    Think Peter knows that the number 10 overall will not help him for two to three years and I think he also knows that he doesn’t have that much time to save his job. Hence he may pull the trigger

  38. Woogie63 says:

    Lowetide: If I’m Chiarelli, I get everyone to sign off on all deals. If they explode, everyone’s guilty. I bet a Harvard man had already thought of that idea.

    The idea that a GM sits in his isolated garrison and makes big trades alone, is a business management model that does not exist anymore.

    A hockey GM needs advisors with depth of knowledge around him. I would be surprised if Bob and Daryl and maybe a few others don’t provide their strong input on every significant trade.

  39. Scungilli Slushy says:

    dustrock:
    What if it’s Krug and Henein for Klefbom and the 10th isn’t part of it?

    Does that change your mind?

    Me? I don’t want a LHD. They have have 4 NHL LHD already. Maybe if PC gets a 2nd pair or better young LHD that is better than Nurse or Klef and it’s a steal, you could do that and trade somebody for a RHD or forward. Chances of that seem slim somehow.

    Heinen is ok, for a 2nd or something. Kucherov he’s not.

  40. Scungilli Slushy says:

    jtblack:
    Recent #10OV

    2017- TIPPETT : too soon
    2016 – JOST : looks promising alreadyGreat arrows
    2015 – RANTANEN :stud
    2014 – RITCHIE :everyday player. game has changed. dont see him living up to draft day expectations.

    The odds are very good of getting an everyday player @ #10 & there is an outside shot at getting an Impact player.

    I HOPE PETER KEEPS THE PICK.

    What if he can trade it for one of the top 2?

  41. Dustylegnd says:

    SwedishPoster:
    The experts on swedish TV, among others Nick Lidström, are quite critical of McDavid’s defensive effort and lack of backchecking. Are they out to lunch? I’ve only had the game on in the background so can’t really say if I agree.

    What are the canadian commentators saying?

    Well McDavis was a little less than inspired on the defensive side of the puck for sure, I do have to agree with Lidstrom there…….having said that, he didn’t even break a sweat to collect his 3 assists …including that ridiculous pass on the winning goal….so I guess you could characterize him as lazy….or maybe just crazy good…making it look easy

  42. --hudson-- says:

    I’m seeing Parayko really bad this tournament. He’s a lot slower than I thought and really struggles getting his shot off.

  43. Spooky Lynx says:

    Was that Bobby Nicks who just gave Nuge the player of the game award? Why is he there?

  44. flea says:

    Unpopular opinion but I’d move Klefbom for Krug. Keep the 10th overall pick for a high end RHD prospect.

    I’m seeing a lot of hating on Krug, but he can shoot the puck and run a powerplay, something the Oilers lack. Klefbom might be that guy, but he isn’t at this time. Injuries are becoming a trend in his career.

    The Oilers desperately need at least one shot from the point. I don’t see Klefbom ever really filling that role other than as a PP2 option.

  45. Pink Socks says:

    After watching Schenn play on a line with 97 and 93 I hopped over to capfriendly to check our his salary and term. Then I saw that Carter Hutton was UFA this year. Out of curiosity, and perhaps just to make myself angry, I checked out the UFA goalies.

    Lehtonen
    Halak
    Ward
    Bernier
    Johnson
    Hutchinson
    Sateri

    All 7 of these guys will make less than $2.5m (except maybe Bernier), should be relatively easy to sign come July 1, are an upgrade on Montoya, and are veterans so there is a fairly easy projection for what they would bring. Why again did PC sign a $2.5m backup with no NHL history?

  46. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    Woogie63: The idea that a GM sits in his isolated garrison and makes big trades alone, is a business management model that does not exist anymore.

    A hockey GM needs advisors with depth of knowledge around him.I would be surprised if Bob and Daryl and maybe a few others don’t provide their strong input on every significant trade.

    – Framed a different way: while I don’t believe Chia is an idiot, I do believe he is surrounded by idiots, that in any structure are significant decision makers

    – Chia gets paid big-bucks. He will get fired for the results of the team one day. But he’s surrounded by idiots, who wasted a decade, are not hireable in NHL hockey. That’s a problem

    – Firing Chia and replacing him with a “better” GM, while maintaining those who provide strong input on every trade as you mention would be foolish. It will be the same result, except hope McD covers

    – Untill the Oil goes MLSE-style with the Leafs (actual GM, and hockey guys and promotions, and guys ticked they don’t get the top job because another guy who has game got it), we aren’t going anywhere.

    – The hope should be Chia turns it around this year, and is able to use some currency to fire some more of the OBC, and he and Nicholson are able to bring in more real hockey guys

    – Because if Chia doesn’t turn it around, then the OBC will only get more power, and it will be gong-show city when coach and GM are gone, and replaced by the OBC “search committee”

    – But most here think that just replacing Chia will solve the woes of this franchise. They are dead wrong IMO

  47. Yeti says:

    Dustylegnd: Watching the World Championship game, good lord can Parayko shoot the puck, classic McDavid drives the D back with speed and drops the puck, Parayko pushes up to be an offensive option and just obliterates the puck for the opening goal…..magic

    –hudson–: I’m seeing Parayko really bad this tournament. He’s a lot slower than I thought and really struggles getting his shot off.

    Dammit. You guys are confusing me!~

  48. OriginalPouzar says:

    Wonder if the Oilers (or any NHL team) will kick the tires on Dominik Kubalik who was one of the players of the tournament for the Czech.

    A former 7th round pick of the LAK who is now a UFA – only 22 years old and good numbers in the Czech and Swiss leagues over the last few years.

  49. Pretendergast says:

    SwedishPoster,

    Kuemper was soft as butter, Ray Ferraro was leaning into him especially on the Anisimov goal. No real mention of defending players.

    It’s narrative, everyone has a bad d game when the goalie can’t stop a puck (coug talbs)

    No way they win that game without Connor so I disagree with Lidstrom

  50. Pretendergast says:

    Richard S.S.,

    Don’t write cheques your mouth can’t cash. Or write cheques

  51. JimmyV1965 says:

    Am I missing something here? There seems to be about a dozen posts commenting on a Krug trade that hasn’t happened and likely won’t because it’s Boston, Neely and Chia.

  52. Wilde says:

    Richard S.S.:
    I hope people who make judgements here are not permitted to make judgements in real life, especially with money.I question their ability to do the right thing.Of course, it could be they only go looney tunes with the Oilers.

    /beep/

    This has been the Daily SS-Richard cruise-by insult to your intelligence.

    Pink Socks:
    After watching Schenn play on a line with 97 and 93 I hopped over to capfriendly to check our his salary and term.Then I saw that Carter Hutton was UFA this year.Out of curiosity, and perhaps just to make myself angry, I checked out the UFA goalies.

    Lehtonen
    Halak
    Ward
    Bernier
    Johnson
    Hutchinson
    Sateri

    All 7 of these guys will make less than $2.5m (except maybe Bernier), should be relatively easy to sign come July 1, are an upgrade on Montoya, and are veterans so there is a fairly easy projection for what they would bring.Why again did PC sign a $2.5m backup with no NHL history?

    I’m not sure a couple of those guys don’t sign north of two and a half, Colorado got into the playoffs on Bernier.

  53. Side says:

    Why do people think Neely and Chia will do any trades together? Didn’t Chia offer more than Calgary did for Hamilton and Neely said no to Chia?

  54. Wilde says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    Wonder if the Oilers (or any NHL team) will kick the tires on Dominik Kubalik who was one of the players of the tournament for the Czech.

    A former 7th round pick of the LAK who is now a UFA – only 22 years old and good numbers in the Czech and Swiss leagues over the last few years.

    Yeah, looks like he tried coming over to increase his draft value and ended up getting played on the third line in Sudbury.

    The 25G in in 48 games in the Czech men’s league as a 20 year old in 2015/16 is intriguing and speaks to his potential.

  55. Westchester Oil says:

    Unbelieveable pass by #97 to O’Reilly for the winning goal today.

    Very entertaining game (at least the 3rd period and OT that I saw). Makes me wish that the NHL would move to the international sized rinks one day – but I know it’ll never happen.

  56. Lowetide says:

    Westchester Oil:
    Unbelieveable pass by #97 to O’Reilly for the winning goal today.

    Very entertaining game (at least the 3rd period and OT that I saw). Makes me wish that the NHL would move to the international sized rinks one day – but I know it’ll never happen.

    That pass by McDavid was insane. Man he’s God-like

  57. Jaxon says:

    What would everyone give up to Florida for Adam Mascherin before he goes back into the draft? Would you give up 2018 2nd Round pick and Kassian? Would you give up a 3rd Rounder? Would you pay a bit extra and try to get a Petrovic, Weeger, or Pysyk back with him? Would you swap 10th overall to Florida for their 15th overall? Would you wait to see who falls to 10 and then make the deal on the floor if what’s left doesn’t excite you?

    Mascherin is an elite LW talent with speed (and he isn’t shy physically even though he is short-ish, but solid). He led his OHL team in scoring for three straight seasons (by 40 pts and 21 pts the last two seasons). My draft year Age/Era and TOI adjusted NHL Primary Points had him scoring 29, which ties Hall, Debrincat, Stamkos, Drouin and Seguin, just behind MacKinnon at 30 and Patrick Kane at 32 (15th best since 2005 draft of players with more estimated 5-on-5 TOI than 13.5 minutes). He’s elite. Our prospect depth on LW is pretty shallow. I would list only Benson as a solid LW prospect (although Safin and Maksimov may challenge there). At the NHL level, it is really only Nugent-Hopkins who seems to be a legit top 6 LW. Mascherin as a 2016 pick is ready to move to pro and possibly challenge for an NHL spot. The right side has an abundance of prospects and challengers (Rattie, Yamamoto, Puljujarvi, and Marody). If they can pick up Mascherin it takes the pressure off the draft and they can draft more for need (RHD) and maybe gamble big on someone like Ryan Merkley, Vitali Kravtsov, Seron Noel, Calen Addison, or Nils Lundkvist.

  58. Clarkenstein says:

    Not sure why this hasn’t been brought up. http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/oilers-entertainment-group-lays-off-30-people-to-focus-on-core-business
    When 30 people get laid off that is a sign something is seriously wrong in the Big House of Katz.
    The quote is they’ve decided to dedicate their efforts to running their “core” business like the Oilers…. cause that has worked so well!

  59. Wilde says:

    Jaxon,

    2019 2nd + Kass I’d pull the trigger on for sure. I like too many of the 2nd round guys this year.

    Also, does Linus Nyman have the plague? 33 5v5 goals, third in the OHL in primary pts/gm, ranked #89 NA.

  60. Lowetide says:

    For The Athletic: Everything you wanted to know about Joel Persson but were afraid to ask

    https://theathletic.com/356890/2018/05/17/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-joel-persson-but-were-afraid-to-ask/

  61. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Pink Socks:
    After watching Schenn play on a line with 97 and 93 I hopped over to capfriendly to check our his salary and term.Then I saw that Carter Hutton was UFA this year.Out of curiosity, and perhaps just to make myself angry, I checked out the UFA goalies.

    Lehtonen
    Halak
    Ward
    Bernier
    Johnson
    Hutchinson
    Sateri

    All 7 of these guys will make less than $2.5m (except maybe Bernier), should be relatively easy to sign come July 1, are an upgrade on Montoya, and are veterans so there is a fairly easy projection for what they would bring.Why again did PC sign a $2.5m backup with no NHL history?

    Because he’s the best goalie in Europe, Swedish tells us. Take that Calgary Flames!!!

  62. Woogie63 says:

    Wilde: /beep/

    This has been the Daily SS-Richard cruise-by insult to your intelligence.

    I’m not sure a couple of those guys don’t sign north of two and a half, Colorado got into the playoffs on Bernier.

    Our goaltending sucked last year. If Talbot plays like that again he is going to be a backup goalie. Nobody on this list has a chance to be better than a very good back up.

  63. Dustylegnd says:

    Yeti,

    Parayko was one the 1st PP unit, so Bill Peters clearly thinks he is capable of getting his shot off

  64. Oilman99 says:

    Lowetide: I was going to say, are we comfortable with the oversight committee?

    If the guy needs an oversight committee,why is he still here? Time for Bobby Nic to man up and do what he should have done on the last day of the season.

  65. Jaxon says:

    In my search for formerly highly touted players who haven’t lived up to expectations, yet, I found the following players and sorted them into draft year categories.

    Draft Year Age & Era Adjusted 5-on-5 NHLe Primary Points with Top 6 MEdian TOI:

    2018 – Draft eligible players for comparison
    Andrei Svechnikov 39 – 39 is 3rd best since Crosby!
    Filip Zadina 24
    Serron Noel 24

    2017 – way too early, teams will hold onto these guys
    Owen Tippett 28
    Nick Suzuki 27
    Gabriel Vilardi 25
    Cody Glass 24
    Kailer Yamamoto 24

    2016 – Too early to tell, but Mascherin represents a real opportunity as he has stated he won’t’ sign with Florida.
    Adam Mascherin 29 (UNSIGNED)
    Boris Katchouk 25 (TBL 2020 RFA)
    Vitali Abramov 24 (CBJ 2020 RFA)

    2015 – Still lots of time, but may represent a trade opportunity
    Dylan Strome 37 (ARI 2020 RFA)

    2014 – at risk of falling through the cracks – would need to depend on scouts to inform potential
    Sam Bennett 30 (CGY 2019 RFA) – regular NHLer but hasn’t lived up to draft position
    Spencer Watson 30 (LAK 2019 RFA) – red flags as he was all the way down to ECHL
    Nick Ritchie 26 (ANA 2018 RFA) – solid NHLer so probably not available
    Chase De Leo 25 (WPG 2018 RFA) – small and stuck behind Jets young team
    Josh Ho-Sang 25 (NYI 2019 RFA) – attitude issues, but great talent, knew McDavid as a youngster and outscored him I believe
    Michael Dal Colle 24 (NYI 2019 RFA) – not sure why his career has fallen off the rails (#5 overall)
    Nikolay Goldobin 24 (VAN 2019 RFA) – close to making it

    2013 – last chance Texaco
    Nic Petan 29 (WPG 2018 RFA) – see Chase De Leo above

    Successes by same metric for Comparison:
    Sidney Crosby 48
    Connor McDavid 44
    Mitch Marner 37
    Robby Fabbri 34
    Patrick Kane 32
    Nathan MAcKinnon 30
    Taylor Hall 30
    Pierre-Luc Dubois 29
    Alex Debrincat 29
    Steven Stankos 29
    Jonathan Drouin 29
    Tyler Seguin 29
    Ryan Strome 28
    Chris Stewart 28
    Evander Kane 28
    Bobby Ryan 28
    John Tavares 27
    Tyler Toffoli 27
    Nik Ehlers 26
    Tyler Ennis 26
    Leon Draisaitl 26
    Steve Downie 25
    Boone Jenner 25
    Gabriel Landeskog 25
    Jordan Eberle 25
    Sven Baertschi 25
    Matt Tkachuk 25
    Brett Connolly 25
    Josh Bailey 25
    Jonathan Huberdeau 24
    Matt Duchene 24
    Ryan Spooner 24
    Nino Niederreiter 24
    Jeff Skinner 24

    These are all players who played more than 13.5 minutes per game at 5-on-5 in their draft year. 13.5 TOI weeds out a lot of non-NHL players with high Primary pts / minute who got those points against lesser competition. When you get down to 23 a lot of misses enter the equation. Zadina and Noel look like great bets by this metric.

  66. Oilman99 says:

    Lowetide: That pass by McDavid was insane. Man he’s God-like

    Now that’s threading the needle.

  67. Lowetide says:

    Clarkenstein:
    Not sure why this hasn’t been brought up. http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/oilers-entertainment-group-lays-off-30-people-to-focus-on-core-business
    When 30 people get laid off that is a sign something is seriously wrong in the Big House of Katz.
    The quote is they’ve decided to dedicate their efforts to running their “core” business like the Oilers…. cause that has worked so well!

    I think this is an interesting question, it’s one I have in a file with “why didn’t they fire the GM or coach?” and “why didn’t Peter Chiarelli spend the money he saved last summer on the Eberle trade?” and I don’t have an answer that works.

  68. Jaxon says:

    Wilde:
    Jaxon,

    2019 2nd + Kass I’d pull the trigger on for sure. I like too many of the 2nd round guys this year.

    Also, does Linus Nyman have the plague? 33 5v5 goals, third in the OHL in primary pts/gm, ranked #89 NA.

    Nyman did have a great season but he is 18 and was eligible for last year’s draft when he was 24th in the OHL in Age Adjusted Top6 TOI 5-on-5 Primary Points Equivalency with 17, just behind Maksimov.

  69. Oilman99 says:

    –hudson–:
    I’m seeing Parayko really bad this tournament.He’s a lot slower than I thought and really struggles getting his shot off.

    Not sure what game you were watching, but I think you need to clean your glasses, the guy is so big he doesn’t look as fast as he is.

  70. Oilman99 says:

    Pink Socks:
    And also, man has Keumper ever been horrible.

    Canada is in trouble, unless one of the goalies learns how to stop a puck before Saturday.

  71. Wilde says:

    Jaxon: Nyman did have a great season but he is 18 and was eligible for last year’s draft when he was 24th in the OHL in Age Adjusted Top6 TOI 5-on-5 Primary Points Equivalency with 17, just behind Maksimov.

    Yes, but those numbers are pretty gaudy even among the other 18-20 year olds in the league

  72. OriginalPouzar says:

    Woogie63: Danton Heinen

    Problem is, 3 of the 4 NMCs are given to the top 3 players the Oilers would be looking at disposing of this off-season.

    The two worst contracts on the team plus Sekera who could have the worst contract on the team due to injury if he doesn’t recover (please recover Reggie).

  73. --hudson-- says:

    Oilman99: Not sure what game you were watching, but I think you need to clean your glasses, the guy is so big he doesn’t look as fast as he is.

    Meh it’s just one tournament. He could still be adjusting to the international ice surface. It’s crazy to see the coach choose him over Ekblad on the pp though, which he did until OT.

  74. OriginalPouzar says:

    Pink Socks:
    After watching Schenn play on a line with 97 and 93 I hopped over to capfriendly to check our his salary and term.Then I saw that Carter Hutton was UFA this year.Out of curiosity, and perhaps just to make myself angry, I checked out the UFA goalies.

    Lehtonen
    Halak
    Ward
    Bernier
    Johnson
    Hutchinson
    Sateri

    All 7 of these guys will make less than $2.5m (except maybe Bernier), should be relatively easy to sign come July 1, are an upgrade on Montoya, and are veterans so there is a fairly easy projection for what they would bring.Why again did PC sign a $2.5m backup with no NHL history?

    The cap hit on the Koskinen signing is mind-boggling and I can’t believe the egregious contract isn’t brought up more often.

    He committed and extra $1.5M to the back-up goaltending position and its reasonable to think he may not have even upgraded it.

    This was done at a time when there is clear knowledge that cap space is extremely limited and the ability to make any material upgrade is contingent on the disposition of material cap space and the contracts we’d want to dispose of are subject to trade protection.

    Egregious!

  75. Woogie63 says:

    OriginalPouzar: The cap hit on the Koskinen signing is mind-boggling and I can’t believe the egregious contract isn’t brought up more often.

    He committed and extra $1.5M to the back-up goaltending position and its reasonable to think he may not have even upgraded it.

    This was done at a time when there is clear knowledge that cap space is extremely limited and the ability to make any material upgrade is contingent on the disposition of material cap space and the contracts we’d want to dispose of are subject to trade protection.

    Egregious!

    Our starting goalie last year was 34 in SV% and delivered a.908 SV% those are solid Backup numbers and it cost us.

    The team has a serious potential problem in goal, why do you want to save some money in our goalie tandem?

  76. Cassandra says:

    OriginalPouzar: The cap hit on the Koskinen signing is mind-boggling and I can’t believe the egregious contract isn’t brought up more often.

    He committed and extra $1.5M to the back-up goaltending position and its reasonable to think he may not have even upgraded it.

    This was done at a time when there is clear knowledge that cap space is extremely limited and the ability to make any material upgrade is contingent on the disposition of material cap space and the contracts we’d want to dispose of are subject to trade protection.

    Egregious!

    I am enjoying this new Original Pouzar much more than the old Original Pouzar.

    In any case people aren’t bring up the Koskinen contract more, not because it isn’t egregious (of course it is), but because it is run of the mill egregious.

    When you have a general manager with Chiarelli’s track record contracts like Koskinen’s are pleasant surprises. No matter how bad a move it might be you always know it could have been worse.

  77. OriginalPouzar says:

    Woogie63: Our starting goalie last year was 34 in SV% and delivered a.908 SV% those are solid Backup numbers and it cost us.

    The team has a serious potential problem in goal, why do you want to save some money in our goalie tandem?

    The key here is the fact that an extra $1.5M has been committed to and will hit our cap and there is the reasonable potential that the goaltending has not improved. The guy they signed is a complete unknown in the NHL and may not even be better than Montoya.

    If management was going to commit $2.5M to the back-up goaltending position, one would have thought an established player would be the recipient – someone like Halak who we know can hold down the fort if Talbot for a stretch if Talbot gets injured or struggles and we know has the ability to actually be a plus starter in this league. That’s a reasonable bet. The bet made is not reasonable for the price.

  78. OriginalPouzar says:

    Cassandra: I am enjoying this new Original Pouzar much more than the old Original Pouzar.

    Same old Original Pouzar – I will defend moves that I believe are defendable (by both coach and GM) but have no issue expressing my displeasure when I disagree with their moves.

    Yes, maybe I look for the positive, maybe even stretch to see it sometimes, but, when a move is as egregious as the Koskinen signing was, I have no problem criticizing the GM for it.

  79. N64 says:

    Lowetide: I think this is an interesting question, it’s one I have in a file with “why didn’t they fire the GM or coach?” and “why didn’t Peter Chiarelli spend the money he saved last summer on the Eberle trade?” and I don’t have an answer that works.

    Right next to why did they buy out Pouliot when that added cap years that actually are tight.

    “It’s not who we are but what we do that defines us.”

  80. Lowetide says:

    Cassandra: Please stop calling people stupid. Please and thanks.

  81. Denis Lemieux says:

    People seem to believe the Oilers can sign any goalie at any price they prefer. Nothing is further from the truth. EDM is at the bottom of almost every goalie’s list of places they prefer to play because of the previous regime’s mismanagement and those guys are still in the house. Do people really believe Monster was at the top of anyone’s list last summer? Chiarellli paid Koskinen what he did this summer because no other legit goalie wants their money. Pretending otherwise ignores reality.

    Pink Socks:
    After watching Schenn play on a line with 97 and 93 I hopped over to capfriendly to check our his salary and term.Then I saw that Carter Hutton was UFA this year.Out of curiosity, and perhaps just to make myself angry, I checked out the UFA goalies.

    Lehtonen
    Halak
    Ward
    Bernier
    Johnson
    Hutchinson
    Sateri

    All 7 of these guys will make less than $2.5m (except maybe Bernier), should be relatively easy to sign come July 1, are an upgrade on Montoya, and are veterans so there is a fairly easy projection for what they would bring.Why again did PC sign a $2.5m backup with no NHL history?

  82. v4ance says:

    OriginalPouzar: Same old Original Pouzar – I will defend moves that I believe are defendable (by both coach and GM) but have no issue expressing my displeasure when I disagree with their moves.

    Yes, maybe I look for the positive, maybe even stretch to see it sometimes, but, when a move is as egregious as the Koskinen signing was, I have no problem criticizing the GM for it.

    Cassandra,

    Koskinen, the straw that broke the OriginalPouzar’s back…

  83. sliderule says:

    Headline in Sun about OEG laying off 30 staff.

    Layoffs are tough and most companies avoid them unless pressured by events.

    There has been a certain amount of wonder expressed as to why TMac wasn’t fired with the coaches.

    Another 3 million for next two years might explain part of it.

  84. v4ance says:

    Denis Lemieux,

    The easier and more likely explanation is that the Oilers are inept at pro scouting and goalie scouting.

    If you look at the string of goalies who’ve come through Edmonton recently you’ll see a trend. Talbot is the only real exception to the rule.

  85. Side says:

    OriginalPouzar: Same old Original Pouzar – I will defend moves that I believe are defendable (by both coach and GM) but have no issue expressing my displeasure when I disagree with their moves.

    Yes, maybe I look for the positive, maybe even stretch to see it sometimes, but, when a move is as egregious as the Koskinen signing was, I have no problem criticizing the GM for it.

    You mean you won’t turn into some rabid tribalist? Who vows to poison this message board for as long as he lives by trolling anyone who doesn’t agree with him about his feelings over Chiarelli?

    Cassandra will be disappointed to learn this..

  86. SwedishPoster says:

    v4ance: Koskinen, the straw that broke the OriginalPouzar’s back…

    To be fair. That’s one big ass 6’7 straw.

  87. Denis Lemieux says:

    Those people are part of the problem. Larger issue is that EDM still has a long and very well established reputation among the goalie community as a graveyard. Ignore that and you will struggle to understand why things turn out the way they do. None of the top backups want Chiarelli’s money. Especially with a coach who they know won’t play them.

    v4ance:
    Denis Lemieux,

    The easier and more likely explanation is that the Oilers are inept at pro scouting and goalie scouting.

    If you look at the string of goalies who’ve come through Edmonton recently you’ll see a trend.Talbot is the only real exception to the rule.

  88. v4ance says:

    Chiarelli’s pattern has been that he has signed players like Russell and Koskinen extremely early to fill the roster spots and achieve “security”. Going into the UFA period with more holes is definitely riskier in that you may not buy what you actually need or you overpay for what you find. On the other hand, Chiarelli has been overpaying the other way for the roster certainty for players, who in hindsight, are less capable than cheaper otpions who’ve appeared on the market.

    I am not as perturbed by the Red Wine Summits as others. Similar to the Democrats and the Republicans in the US Congress, if the Summits act to slow or drag out the transactions or maybe even reconsider a BOLD move, Peter will not be able to go from zero to stupid as fast and we’ll retain more of our valuable assets.

    Posters are still trying to pick sides and say, Lowe/MacT are incompent and their meddling is the reason for the Oiler woes or Chiarelli has no clue about managing a salary cap. I believe they’re all fools and assign blame first and foremost to the man who has the title.

    At the end of the day, the GM has to be responsible for the actions of the organization. Otherwise, he’s just a worthless stand-in and you might as well replace him.

  89. leadfarmer says:

    Richard S.S.:
    I hope people who make judgements here are not permitted to make judgements in real life, especially with money.I question their ability to do the right thing.Of course, it could be they only go looney tunes with the Oilers.

    Actually there’s a lot of very successful people from all walks of life here.

  90. --hudson-- says:

    v4ance:
    Denis Lemieux,

    The easier and more likely explanation is that the Oilers are inept at pro scouting and goalie scouting.

    If you look at the string of goalies who’ve come through Edmonton recently you’ll see a trend.Talbot is the only real exception to the rule.

    On a tangent, the LA Kings seem to trade their backup goalie every year. That’s phenomenal value their goaltending brings to the asset pipeline.

    2014 – traded Scrivens to Edmonton for a 3rd
    2015 – traded Jones along with Miller and 13th overall to Boston for Lucic (not a good trade)
    2017 – traded Budaj and a 7th for Bishop and a 5th
    2018 – traded Kuemper for Wedgewood and Rieder
    2018 – traded Zatkoff for future considerations

    LA is the opposite of a goalie graveyard, teams keep trading for their backups.

  91. Biggus Dickus says:

    Lowetide:
    Cassandra: Please stop calling people stupid. Please and thanks.

    I agree, the word should be reserved for people who hear Yanni.

  92. Wilde says:

    Have to think that with a couple goalies already signed from the KHL, more scouting has occurred than has been acted on, and some NHL execs got a real good look at Vitali Kravstov in the middle of his historic playoff tear.

    I could see Chicago or another team in the top 10 take a chance on him.

  93. Woogie63 says:

    OriginalPouzar: The key here is the fact that an extra $1.5M has been committed to and will hit our cap and there is the reasonable potential that the goaltending has not improved. The guy they signed is a complete unknown in the NHL and may not even be better than Montoya.

    If management was going to commit $2.5M to the back-up goaltending position, one would have thought an established player would be the recipient – someone like Halak who we know can hold down the fort if Talbot for a stretch if Talbot gets injured or struggles and we know has the ability to actually be a plus starter in this league. That’s a reasonable bet.The bet made is not reasonable for the price.

    Isn’t Halak the Slovak word for shaky?

  94. --hudson-- says:

    Side:
    Why do people think Neely and Chia will do any trades together? Didn’t Chia offer more than Calgary did for Hamilton and Neely said no to Chia?

    One wild theory on this, Chiarelli didn’t let the Bruins out of their contract with him after he was fired and hired by the Oilers. I believe most hockey execs let their former employer out once they find a new gig. This would explain why the Bruins didn’t settle on the compensatory pick, the way the Sharks did for McLellan taken a low 3rd in 2015 instead of a high 3rd in 2016 or 2017. And of course the issue with the Hamilton trade where they accepted arguably a worse offer from Calgary.

  95. v4ance says:

    Denis Lemieux,

    There’s only really 70 job openings for NHL goalies and probably 200 goalies capable of performing at that level. Of course Edmonton wouldn’t be the first choice in that it’s a bad situation but they will sign for the opportunity.

    It isn’t that Koskinen doesn’t have the ability to be an NHL goalie. It’s that he’s totally unproven at this level of competition and he received a paycheck that is normally given to far more established and experienced goalies. The Oilers are assuming ALL the risk in this deal… following the exact pattern of Chiarelli’s many other deals.

  96. godot10 says:

    sliderule:
    Headline in Sun about OEG laying off 30 staff.

    Layoffs are tough and most companies avoid them unless pressured by events.

    There has been a certain amount of wonder expressed as to why TMac wasn’t fired with the coaches.

    Another 3 million for next two years might explain part of it.

    Cisco and many big tech companies cull the bottom 5% every year…good years and bad.

    Pareto Principle…20% of the people do 80% of the work. Cutting 5% has very little effect on output.

    In the Oilers case, two years into the new arena, it is not surprising that they have a better idea of how many people then need, but missing the playoffs undoubtedly factored into leaning out the organization.

  97. VOR says:

    Biggus Dickus: I agree, the word should be reserved for people who hear Yanni.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/yanny-vs-laurel-debate-sparks-internet-controversy/

  98. Denis Lemieux says:

    v4ance,

    The Oilers have a well deserved (bad) reputation in the goalie community. Quality backups do not want Chiarelli’s money. They have better options. Oilers get the dregs, overpay the 2nd tier, or hire fringe guys. Same every year no matter who the GM is until certain guys are no longer in the organization. Current coach who hates backups doesn’t help either

  99. RonnieB says:

    godot10,

    If one reads further into the article, 30 employees out of 1,600 is hardly a massive layoff. Also, the OEG explains it by stating they are cutting their search for global opportunities to focus on the Oilers, Oil Kings, Rogers Place entertainment offerings and the Ice District.

  100. Cassandra says:

    Lowetide:
    Cassandra: Please stop calling people stupid. Please and thanks.

    I didn’t call anyone stupid. Kinger did. I made a play on his calling the OBC idiots.

  101. SayItAin'tSo, Gretz, SayItAin'tSo! says:

    Wow, Swiss knocked Finland out of the WHC

    Big upset

  102. commonfan29 says:

    I find it very odd when people posit that Chia was steered/forced into certain moves.

    The guy was hired as POHO and GM, and it was reported at the time that he got those titles because he was only going to take the job if he had full authority to make moves.

    It’s certainly possible that things have changed, but there’s no reason to think any of the team’s early moves weren’t his.

  103. Scungilli Slushy says:

    commonfan29:
    I find it very odd when people posit that Chia was steered/forced into certain moves.

    The guy was hired as POHO and GM, and it was reported at the time that he got those titles because he was only going to take the job if he had full authority to make moves.

    It’s certainly possible that things have changed, but there’s no reason to think any of the team’s early moves weren’t his.

    In the end he wears them regardless of what actually happened. He’s not a fool. It’s the same for all GMs. Meddling owners, friends with influence, family, yada yada yada

  104. Pink Socks says:

    Wilde: /beep/

    I’m not sure a couple of those guys don’t sign north of two and a half, Colorado got into the playoffs on Bernier.

    Bernier yes, I just don’t see any of the other guys getting it, especially with so many options.

  105. Pretendergast says:

    Denis Lemieux,

    Unless you can source this it is pure speculation, with such limited jobs for goalies, actual NHL money is hard to come by. Koskinen was payed as much as he was payed in Russia.

    edit:1.3, point still stands

  106. Pink Socks says:

    OriginalPouzar: Same old Original Pouzar – I will defend moves that I believe are defendable (by both coach and GM) but have no issue expressing my displeasure when I disagree with their moves.

    Yes, maybe I look for the positive, maybe even stretch to see it sometimes, but, when a move is as egregious as the Koskinen signing was, I have no problem criticizing the GM for it.

    Right on. There is usually a way to find a silver lining even if the move is less than desirable, however, the Koskinen signing is indefensible considering the options.

  107. Pink Socks says:

    Denis Lemieux:
    People seem to believe the Oilers can sign any goalie at any price they prefer. Nothing is further from the truth. EDM is at the bottom of almost every goalie’s list of places they prefer to play because of the previous regime’s mismanagement and those guys are still in the house. Do people really believe Monster was at the top of anyone’s list last summer? Chiarellli paid Koskinen what he did this summer because no other legit goalie wants their money. Pretending otherwise ignores reality.

    I disagree with this sentiment. 7 UFA goalies I listed above are all going to be looking for work. Cam Ward is a local boy, Halak needs a fresh start, same for Lehtonen. Johnson is much better than his numbers last year and has played in Alberta before. Hutchinson will want an opportunity as well, and Sateri who filled in nicely for Florida this season has more consistent KHL numbers than Koskinen and did it playing on a wretched defensive Vityaz team. If he doesn’t want to be a #3 for the Panthers, Sateri I thought was an excellent option come July 1. Great KHL numbers, great AHL numbers, and better-than-Talbot NHL numbers (albeit in 9 games). Harri Sateri doesn’t care what the previous management did in Edmonton, he wants an opportunity to be a full time NHLer and had PC come calling, I don’t see him saying, “that Tambellini was a shit show in Edmonton for a few years, I’d rather play in the AHL.”

  108. RonnieB says:

    Pretendergast:
    Denis Lemieux,

    Unless you can source this it is pure speculation, with such limited jobs for goalies, actual NHL money is hard to come by. Koskinen was payed as much as he was payed in Russia.

    Google Search: Report: List of Highest Paid KHL Players Revealed. Koskinen was paid $1.3/year in the KHL. This was also confirmed by Swedish Poster.

  109. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux: – This has to be exactly right

    – No way did Chia trade for Griffen alone (I believe he worked the Hamilton trade alone), then the whole brain thrust had to agree with the Griff, and Chia would have protected himself

    – Same with Hall: no way he doesn’t protect himself.OBC was champing at bit to get rid of Hall.Chia gets red light to go for Lucic, and find the best D he can in a trade.

    – Chia will get fired one day, these trades will be highlighted.Chia will get hired by another org as GM, because everyone knows the sequence of events, and the cluster-f$ck Chia had to manage

    * If Chia trades the 10th and Klef for a offensive D, then he is truly an idiot.Maybe you do that for OEL, and reverse draft #1 picks or something, but all these proposals are nonesense IMO

    I agree with all that except Peter getting another GM job. 🙂

    His ass was fully covered and my info has the OBC being the impetus to trading Hall, but it all still lays at the GMs feet, same with Reinhart.

    Rishaug started the teeth gnashing and garment rendering with his “Klef +10 for Risto” and EDM fans are like a dog that’s been beaten often and starts to yelp as soon as the owner raises his hand.

    The last 3 Junes have not been good and collectively everyone is ready to lose another trade and on edge.

  110. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Kinger_Oil.redux: – Framed a different way: while I don’t believe Chia is an idiot, I do believe he is surrounded by idiots, that in any structure are significant decision makers

    –Chia gets paid big-bucks. He will get fired for the results of the team one day.But he’s surrounded by idiots, who wasted a decade, are not hireable in NHL hockey.That’s a problem

    – Firing Chia and replacing him with a “better” GM, while maintaining those who provide strong input on every trade as you mention would be foolish.It will be the same result, except hope McD covers

    – Untill the Oil goes MLSE-style with the Leafs (actual GM, and hockey guys and promotions, and guys ticked they don’t get the top job because another guy who has game got it), we aren’t going anywhere.

    – The hope should be Chia turns it around this year, and is able to use some currency to fire some more of the OBC, and he and Nicholson are able to bring in more real hockey guys

    – Because if Chia doesn’t turn it around, then the OBC will only get more power, and it will be gong-show city when coach and GM are gone, and replaced by the OBC “search committee”

    – But most here think that just replacing Chia will solve the woes of this franchise.They are dead wrong IMO

    I find it interesting that it’s not ok to call Peter an idiot because as a GM his team won 16 playoff games one year but it’s ok to call Lowe and idiot because the best his team did as a GM was win 15 playoff games.

  111. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    sliderule:

    Headline in Sun about OEG laying off 30 staff.

    Layoffs are tough and most companies avoid them unless pressured by events.

    There has been a certain amount of wonder expressed as to why TMac wasn’t fired with the coaches.

    Another 3 million for next two years might explain part of it.

    As per someone who works for OEG and had their job changed in the recent moves: “it’s about getting rid of deadwood and putting people in the right spots”

    Seeing as they went through a recent (last 3 year) surge in staffing levels these moves aren’t surprising and are not indicative of lack of cash flow.

    EDM is rumoured to be a top 5 revenue team with the new rink and the local TV comes up in 2 years and I bet the rights increase in value by at least a factor of 3.

    Money isn’t an issue imo

  112. jp says:

    Wilde:
    Have to think that with a couple goalies already signed from the KHL, more scouting has occurred than has been acted on, and some NHL execs got a real good look at Vitali Kravstov in the middle of his historic playoff tear.

    I could see Chicago or another team in the top 10 take a chance on him.

    Very nice run for Kravstov as an 18 year old in the KHL; what’s historic about it?

  113. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Lowetide: I think this is an interesting question, it’s one I have in a file with “why didn’t they fire the GM or coach?” and “why didn’t Peter Chiarelli spend the money he saved last summer on the Eberle trade?” and I don’t have an answer that works.

    My information was that the cap space was scheduled to be spent to load up for playoffs.

    The biggest deal was one done with VGK for Neal was “done” and just had to wait for January to pull the trigger.

    Then VGK was in the playoff picture when EDM wasn’t and the best laid plans of mice and men……

    EDM does not have a cash flow problem.

  114. Andy Dufresne says:

    Lowetide: That pass by McDavid was insane. Man he’s God-like

    Whadya mean “like”…….#McDeity

  115. jp says:

    OriginalPouzar: Problem is, 3 of the 4 NMCs are given to the top 3 players the Oilers would be looking at disposing of this off-season.

    The two worst contracts on the team plus Sekera who could have the worst contract on the team due to injury if he doesn’t recover (please recover Reggie).

    The Russell/Sekera contracts aren’t so bad in isolation, it’s just in tandem and as part of the leftorium they’re tough. Both contracts are in range of fair value (Sekera before injury/assuming recovery) and fairly movable if not for the NMCs. If there was only 1, or if Sekera were a RD, neither would be the same pressure points that need disposal.

    None of this changes the reality, but interesting that it’s the situation more than the actual contracts that are the issue.

  116. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Oilman99: Canada is in trouble, unless one of the goalies learns how to stop a puck before Saturday.

    Well now that they are playing the Swiss maybe not

  117. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Richard S.S.:
    This is what I have found on this site:
    1) There are a lot of reasonable people on this site and they have a lot of interesting things to say whether for or against and defend their position well-ish.
    2) There are a lot of unreasonable people on this site and they have a lot of interesting things to say whether for or against and defend there position well-ish.
    That’s about 90% of the people here.
    3) Then there are the trolls and worse.That’s around 10%.
    Pick one.c

    Where do you slot yourself?

  118. Andy Dufresne says:

    OriginalPouzar: The cap hit on the Koskinen signing is mind-boggling and I can’t believe the egregious contract isn’t brought up more often.

    He committed and extra $1.5M to the back-up goaltending position and its reasonable to think he may not have even upgraded it.

    This was done at a time when there is clear knowledge that cap space is extremely limited and the ability to make any material upgrade is contingent on the disposition of material cap space and the contracts we’d want to dispose of are subject to trade protection.

    Egregious!

    Immaterial

  119. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    OriginalPouzar: The cap hit on the Koskinen signing is mind-boggling and I can’t believe the egregious contract isn’t brought up more often.

    He committed and extra $1.5M to the back-up goaltending position and its reasonable to think he may not have even upgraded it.

    This was done at a time when there is clear knowledge that cap space is extremely limited and the ability to make any material upgrade is contingent on the disposition of material cap space and the contracts we’d want to dispose of are subject to trade protection.

    Egregious!

    Maybe Peter thinks the big Finn might win the starters job?

  120. Andy Dufresne says:

    Woogie63: Our starting goalie last year was 34 in SV% and delivered a.908 SV% those are solid Backup numbers and it cost us.

    The team has a serious potential problem in goal, why do you want to save some money in our goalie tandem?

    Material

  121. Andy Dufresne says:

    Woodguy v2.0: Maybe Peter thinks the big Finn might win the starters job?

    Talbot is in a contract year. Seems like a reasonable bet and if it succeeds has the added benefit of serving as a negotiation tool.

    Goaltending upgrade was an obvious call. I felt certain Chia was going to spend a little more than most people expected (cough *OP* cough, cough) and get someone with the potential to push Talbot for the starter role…….in a contract year…….

  122. russ99 says:

    sliderule:
    Headline in Sun about OEG laying off 30 staff.

    Layoffs are tough and most companies avoid them unless pressured by events.

    There has been a certain amount of wonder expressed as to why TMac wasn’t fired with the coaches.

    Another 3 million for next two years might explain part of it.

    I’m more wondering why MacT wasn’t fired after that dumpster-fire that Bakersfield was this year.

    Maybe they’re waiting until after the Cup is awarded to do that, Howson too. Nicholson/Chia won the power struggle, there needs to be departures.

    Waiting almost two years to get Puljujarvi into English classes and help him with the transition to North America too.

  123. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Denis Lemieux:
    People seem to believe the Oilers can sign any goalie at any price they prefer. Nothing is further from the truth. EDM is at the bottom of almost every goalie’s list of places they prefer to play because of the previous regime’s mismanagement and those guys are still in the house. Do people really believe Monster was at the top of anyone’s list last summer? Chiarellli paid Koskinen what he did this summer because no other legit goalie wants their money. Pretending otherwise ignores reality.

    There are more back up goalies than back up jobs and they are the closest to “gun for hire” as it gets in the NHL

    They rarely get more than a one year contract and take the first good contract presented to them.

    Being picky about the city and sweater doesn’t really exists.

  124. Andy Dufresne says:

    Woodguy v2.0: Where do you slot yourself?

    They call me “Pelham 123″….depends on the day…and how (stupid) Im feeling.

  125. Munny says:

    Caps’ Orlov snipes one past Vasi… Count Orlov has had a tremendous playoffs thus far.

  126. Munny says:

    But the Bolts have a quick reply. Point, who else? The crowd was just pumped too.

  127. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    commonfan29:
    I find it very odd when people posit that Chia was steered/forced into certain moves.

    The guy was hired as POHO and GM, and it was reported at the time that he got those titles because he was only going to take the job if he had full authority to make moves.

    It’s certainly possible that things have changed, but there’s no reason to think any of the team’s early moves weren’t his.

    People contort themselves into positions that make a make 70’s Twister party seem tame when their prognostications fail.

  128. Munny says:

    Stammer on the PP. Caps better learn to stay out of the box.

  129. Andy Dufresne says:

    Woodguy v2.0: I find it interesting that it’s not ok to call Peter an idiot because as a GM his team won 16 playoff games one year but it’s ok to call Lowe and idiot because the best his team did as a GM was win 15 playoff games.

    Ive always wondered about that double standard. It should not be acceptable to call either guy an idiot.

    For two reasons. One… because its not true

    And Two because if you look at the dictionary defintion of idiot it is “a mentally handicapped person.”

    No big deal to me personally but our host once took umbrage with a word I used (the one Kim Jung Ill called Donald Trump) when I was standing up to people using the word idiot AND when ironically, the 3 Mental Deficiency psychological classifications were, in the past, the classifications of moron, imbecile, and idiot.

    I now return you to your regular scheduled program…..

    Serenity Now……..

  130. Andy Dufresne says:

    Woodguy v2.0: People contort themselves into positions that make a make 70’s Twister party seem tame when their prognostications fail.

    Pelham 123 and……… Mr Pretzel or The Twizzler….depending on my mood.
    .
    I am a flawed human being.

  131. jp says:

    WG or other, just wondering what you think about Klefbom’s chronically low PDO (the only exception being 16-17). I was thinking he looked quite a bit like Faulk by the numbers, probably due to HD box issues, but was surprised to see he did well by DFF%. He’s pretty consistently under-performed his CF%, SF% etc. Any thoughts on why and whether it’s likely to continue?

    By year:
    13-14 952 PDO (10/10) 44.26 CF% (5/10)
    14-15 956 PDO (7/8) 49.80 CF% (2/8)
    15-16 985 PDO (7/10) 50.80 CF% (2/10)
    16-17 1003 PDO (6/8) 50.44 CF% (4/8)
    17-18 972 PDO (8/10) 51.51 CF% (3/10)

  132. Munny says:

    Caps desperately needed a late 1st period goal on that powerplay but did not get it.

    Trotsky has some work to do on the Russian Machine between periods.

  133. digger50 says:

    What about Hamonic?

    I know, I know

    But if we are looking at what might be available without giving up major assets? What happened to him? Is he done or just bad year (or two?)

  134. Andy Dufresne says:

    Woodguy v2.0: Well now that they are playing the Swiss maybe not

    Dont get over confident…..the Swiss have a knack for finding holes especially “top cheese”

  135. Andy Dufresne says:

    Woodguy v2.0: I agree with all that except Peter getting another GM job.

    His ass was fully covered and my info has the OBC being the impetus to trading Hall, but it all still lays at the GMs feet, same with Reinhart.

    Rishaug started the teeth gnashing and garment rendering with his “Klef +10 for Risto” and EDM fans are like a dog that’s been beaten often and starts to yelp as soon as the owner raises his hand.

    The last 3 Junes have not been good and collectively everyone is ready to lose another trade and on edge.

    Rishaugs always throwing out bones to rabid Oilers fans……..”Klef +10 for Risto” Pffftttt.

    Everyone knows its “RNH + 10 to MTL for Patches + 3

  136. Andy Dufresne says:

    Woodguy v2.0: My information was that the cap space was scheduled to be spent to load up for playoffs.

    The biggest deal was one done with VGK for Neal was “done” and just had to wait for January to pull the trigger.

    Then VGK was in the playoff picture when EDM wasn’t and the best laid plans of mice and men……

    EDM does not have a cash flow problem.

    Can we PLEASE make sure a copy of this post finds its way into LTs file.

  137. OriginalPouzar says:

    RonnieB: Google Search: Report: List of Highest Paid KHL Players Revealed. Koskinen was paid $1.3/year in the KHL. This was also confirmed by Swedish Poster.

    Even if Koskinen was paid more to play in the KHL and refused to sign in Edmonton for less there is another option – walk away!!!!!

  138. OriginalPouzar says:

    jp: Very nice run for Kravstov as an 18 year old in the KHL; what’s historic about it?

    He broke the record for most points by an 18 year old in the playoffs.

  139. OriginalPouzar says:

    Andy Dufresne: Immaterial

    100% not immaterial (i.e. material) given the huge cap crunch this team is in and the total inability to improve externally (by adding cap hit) unless cap is disposed of.

  140. OriginalPouzar says:

    Woodguy v2.0: Maybe Peter thinks the big Finn might win the starters job?

    Maybe he does think that, however, that is a poor bet, in my opinion, given there is just as good a likelihood that Montoya outplays Koskinen.

  141. leadfarmer says:

    Andy Dufresne: Ive always wondered about that double standard. It should not be acceptable to call either guy an idiot.

    For two reasons. One… because its not true

    And Two because if you look at the dictionary defintion of idiot it is “a mentally handicapped person.”

    No big deal to me personally but our host oncetook umbrage with a word I used (the one Kim Jung Ill called Donald Trump) when I was standing up to people using the word idiot AND when ironically, the 3 Mental Deficiency psychological classifications were, in the past, the classifications of moron, imbecile, and idiot.

    I now return you to your regular scheduled program…..

    Serenity Now……..

    If you are under 200 years old you don’t get to claim that word as offensive. There is a reason it has an Archaic note next to it. Otherwise any description of below average intellect or decision making is horribly offensive.

  142. OriginalPouzar says:

    Andy Dufresne: Talbot is in a contract year. Seems like a reasonable bet and if it succeeds has the added benefit of serving as a negotiation tool.

    Goaltending upgrade was an obvious call.I felt certain Chia was going to spend a little more than most people expected (cough *OP* cough, cough) and get someone with the potential to push Talbot for the starter role…….in a contract year…….

    There are goalies available with histories of being starters (and having success) and who could reasonably push Talbot for the starter role.

    The guy signed (for 2.5X what a standard backup normally makes) is a complete wild card.

    I hope he’s the next coming of Kiprusoff but, as of now, he has earned nothing more than an ELC level contract – unfortunately he received a contract greater than an elite back-up should receive.

    If this was last year then it would have been a different story. A bloated contract for a one-year term last off-season would have been fine given the ample cap space. There is no cap space this year and a need to improve.

    This contract pushes us closer to a Klefbom or Nuge for cap space type deal.

  143. Munny says:

    Kuznetsov with a huge goal to tie it up.

  144. jp says:

    OriginalPouzar: He broke the record for most points by an 18 year old in the playoffs.

    Cool thanks, Nichushkin wasn’t far off (was likely the previous record holder actually), but that got him drafted 10th, so…

  145. Munny says:

    NHL refs cannot even get the right guy in the box.

  146. who says:

    OriginalPouzar: There are goalies available with histories of being starters (and having success) and who could reasonably push Talbot for the starter role.

    The guy signed (for 2.5X what a standard backup normally makes) is a complete wild card.

    I hope he’s the next coming of Kiprusoff but, as of now, he has earned nothing more than an ELC level contract – unfortunately he received a contract greater than an elite back-up should receive.

    If this was last year then it would have been a different story.A bloated contract for a one-year term last off-season would have been fine given the ample cap space.There is no cap space this year and a need to improve.

    This contract pushes us closer to a Klefbom or Nuge for cap space type deal.

    Why don’t we just wait and see him play before we proclaim this as a horrible signing. He might be a very expensive flop. Or he might be a very cheap starter by Christmas. I have no idea. But neither do you.

  147. JimmyV1965 says:

    Pink Socks: Bernier yes, I just don’t see any of the other guys getting it, especially with so many options.

    Hutton will.

  148. v4ance says:

    who,

    Imagine you’re playing blackjack and you can double down on a hand blind.

    You can choose to do it early in the deck when the entire range of probabilities is open or you can choose to wait and count cards til near the end of the shoe to place your bet.

    You could win with either scenario but isn’t it more likely to win if you have more information near the end?

    That’s exactly the situation we’re in with Koskinen with an early bet on him with very little track record. We could have bet on a more proven goalie like Halak but we’re taking all the risk.

    As an Oiler fan, I want the team to do well and the bets to pay off. This is just another excessively risky and unnecessary bet on top of the many other bad deals that this GM has arranged.

  149. Andy Dufresne says:

    who: Why don’t we just wait and see him play before we proclaim this as a horrible signing. He might be a very expensive flop. Or he might be a very cheap starter by Christmas. I have no idea. But neither do you.

    What do you do with a goalie who has played 5 or 6 seasons on the big ice in the KHL?

    Does he need to be acclimatized to the smaller ice surface? Is training camp enough?

    He is technically on an ELC so he can be sent to Bakersfield without needing to clear wiavers.
    Do you start him in Bakersfield until your first set of back to backs??

  150. Andy Dufresne says:

    leadfarmer: If you are under 200 years old you don’t get to claim that word as offensive.There is a reason it has an Archaic note next to it. Otherwise any description of below average intellect or decision making is horribly offensive.

    United States
    Until 2007, the California Penal Code Section 26 stated that “Idiots” were one of six types of people who are not capable of committing crimes. In 2007 the code was amended to read “persons who are mentally incapacitated.”[16] In 2008, Iowa voters passed a measure replacing “idiot, or insane person” in the State’s constitution with “person adjudged mentally incompetent.”[17]

    In several U.S. states, “idiots” do not have the right to vote:

    Kentucky Section 145[18]
    Mississippi Article 12, Section 241[19]
    New Mexico Article VII, section 1[20]
    Ohio Article V, Section 6[21]

    The constitution of the state of Arkansas was amended in the general election of 2008 to, among other things, repeal a provision (Article 3, Section 5) which had until its repeal prohibited “idiots or insane persons” from voting.[22]

    United Kingdom
    “Idiots” are barred from voting in British parliamentary elections.[23]

    If people call you and idiot and it does not affend you, then you are special.

  151. Andy Dufresne says:

    OriginalPouzar: 100% not immaterial (i.e. material) given the huge cap crunch this team is in and the total inability to improve externally (by adding cap hit) unless cap is disposed of.

    I was kidding you with the “immaterial”…..cause I know your passion for that word. 🙂

    Reasonable people can disagree.

    Were you expecting that they would spend less than $1.5 million to upgrade a position as important as Goalie? I was completely expecting it (just not the russian factor). In fact I would have been VERY unhappy if they had just shuffled the deck chairs on the Titanic by bringing in another $1million option.

  152. OriginalPouzar says:

    who: Why don’t we just wait and see him play before we proclaim this as a horrible signing. He might be a very expensive flop. Or he might be a very cheap starter by Christmas. I have no idea. But neither do you.

    So we can’t discuss any moves until we see how they turn out?

    I guess we should shut down the comment section?

    I have no idea how he’ll perform. I hope he is the next coming of Kipper but, at this point in time, given everything we know and what is actually reasonable, the amount of money he received, in the context of our cap situation, is egregious, in my opinion.

    I hope he wins 3 vezinas over the next few years and 4 Conn Smythes.

  153. OriginalPouzar says:

    Andy Dufresne: What do you do with a goalie who has played 5 or 6 seasons on the big ice in the KHL?

    Does he need to be acclimatized to the smaller ice surface?Is training camp enough?

    He is technically on an ELC so he can be sent to Bakersfield without needing to clear wiavers.
    Do you start him in Bakersfield until your first set of back to backs??

    No, he’s not on an ELC (if he was then his salary would be capped at $975K). Francouz, who signed with Colorado is on an ELC due to a technicality and his cap his is <$700K and he had better numbers.

    With that said, Koskinen is waiver so we could send him to the minors but he'd still hit the cap for $1.5M plus his replacement's cap hit (likely of $1M).

  154. RonnieB says:

    OriginalPouzar: Even if Koskinen was paid more to play in the KHL and refused to sign in Edmonton for less there is another option – walk away!!!!!

    Precisely.
    I think that was one course Chiarelli skipped at Harvard. Very telling in his negotiations.

  155. OriginalPouzar says:

    Andy Dufresne: I was kidding you with the “immaterial”…..cause I know your passion for that word.

    Reasonable people can disagree.

    Were you expecting that they would spend less than $1.5 million to upgrade a position as important as Goalie?I was completely expecting it (just not the russian factor). In fact I would have been VERY unhappy if they had just shuffled the deck chairs on the Titanic by bringing in another $1million option.

    1) I was against spending more than the normal back-up cap hit of apx $1M – we don’t have the cap space to afford the extra money spent on a back-up.

    2) what upgrade? For all we know, he is no upgrade on Montoya.

    3) If they were going to spend that type of cap to “upgrade” the back-up position, I would have thought they get an established player with a history of starting success in the NHL as opposed to a complete unknown.

    4) Not that it really matters, but his comparable, Pavel Francouz, signed for $690K which is around what our ceiling for signing this guy should have been (I’d go up to $1M).

  156. OriginalPouzar says:

    RonnieB: Precisely.
    I think that was one course Chiarelli skipped at Harvard. Very telling in his negotiations.

    Oh, absolutely – it seems to me that he gets targeted on a player and will do what it takes to “get his man”.

    I don’t think the Hall/Larsson trade was as much about trying to trade Taylor Hall but a hard target on Larsson and that’s the price he was willing to pay.

    Russell being signed on June 23 for 4 years with a NMC is another example.

  157. Andy Dufresne says:

    OriginalPouzar: 1) I was against spending more than the normal back-up cap hit of apx $1M – we don’t have the cap space to afford the extra money spent on a back-up.

    2) what upgrade? For all we know, he is no upgrade on Montoya.

    3) If they were going to spend that type of cap to “upgrade” the back-up position, I would have thought they get an established player with a history of starting success in the NHL as opposed to a complete unknown.

    4) Not that it really matters, but his comparable, Pavel Francouz, signed for $690K which is around what our ceiling for signing this guy should have been (I’d go up to $1M).

    You see…..it just proves the point that as a GM you cant win with the fans.

    If Chia had done what you wanted Id have been pissed. He did what he did and youre pissed.
    I think one thing we can agree on is that Chiarelli cares not what you or I think or feel.

    P.S. Id bet dollars to donuts that Colorado was in on the bidding for Mikko Kostinen…..It would be too coincidental that they signed Francouz less than 48 hours later. Francouz was probably plan B IMO

    Also…..Rick Dipietro would be an upgrade on Montoya IMO….just too cost prohibitive at $4.5 million for 15 years…:)

  158. Munny says:

    Killorn with a killer seconds after Caps complete a huge kill.

  159. Munny says:

    And the DC Swamp sucks all the mo’ out of the Machine. They head to Florida… land of a thousand golf courses, a fantastic summer past time..

    Good job by the Bolts to survive that 2nd period only giving up one. And of course for making their powerplays count. They don’t look strong enough at even strength though to be SC Champs.

  160. Andy Dufresne says:

    RonnieB: Precisely.
    I think that was one course Chiarelli skipped at Harvard. Very telling in his negotiations.

    I read somewhere that he audited it at Harvard because he already had his “Art of the Deal” diploma from Trump University

  161. Munny says:

    OriginalPouzar: 1) I was against spending more than the normal back-up cap hit of apx $1M – we don’t have the cap space to afford the extra money spent on a back-up.

    The hammer doesn’t drop on this till October. It certainly didn’t drop on the signing date. While a cautionary tale or two could be told, a complete freak-out is waaay out of proportion. There are obviously moves to come.

    OriginalPouzar: 2) what upgrade? For all we know, he is no upgrade on Montoya.

    Utterly immaterial. What you know or don’t know about a player weighs fuck all into any organization’s decision-making. This is merely justification for your personal outrage.

    Now if you have a scouting report or two that reveals something material, well then we have a conversation.

    OriginalPouzar: 3) complete unknown.

    Complete overstatement.

    OriginalPouzar: 4) Not that it really matters, but his comparable, Pavel Francouz, signed for $690K which is around what our ceiling for signing this guy should have been (I’d go up to $1M).

    You just admitted in 2) and 3) that to you anyways, he’s a complete unknown, and now you’re offering comps?

  162. Andy Dufresne says:

    OriginalPouzar: Oh, absolutely – it seems to me that he gets targeted on a player and will do what it takes to “get his man”.

    I don’t think the Hall/Larsson trade was as much about trying to trade Taylor Hall but a hard target on Larsson and that’s the price he was willing to pay.

    Russell being signed on June 23 for 4 years with a NMC is another example.

    I agree 100%.

    Its a very corporate thing…..target the man you want and then pay the price. Works in business.

  163. JimmyV1965 says:

    Andy Dufresne: Ive always wondered about that double standard. It should not be acceptable to call either guy an idiot.

    For two reasons. One… because its not true

    And Two because if you look at the dictionary defintion of idiot it is “a mentally handicapped person.”

    No big deal to me personally but our host oncetook umbrage with a word I used (the one Kim Jung Ill called Donald Trump) when I was standing up to people using the word idiot AND when ironically, the 3 Mental Deficiency psychological classifications were, in the past, the classifications of moron, imbecile, and idiot.

    I now return you to your regular scheduled program…..

    Serenity Now……..

    I don’t think we should be calling anyone an idiot. It’s one thing to say I think person A sucks at his job. It’s another to call that person an idiot. Just like you should say someone’s argument sucks, but don’t call them an idiot for making it. Unless you’re sure they’re a Flames fan.

  164. Munny says:

    JimmyV1965: Unless you’re sure they’re a Flames fan.

    Ha!

  165. OriginalPouzar says:

    Andy Dufresne: You see…..it just proves the point that as a GM you cant win with the fans.

    If Chia had done what you wanted Id have been pissed. He did what he did and youre pissed.
    I think one thing we can agree on is that Chiarelli cares not what you or I think or feel.

    P.S.Id bet dollars to donuts that Colorado was in on the bidding for Mikko Kostinen…..It would be too coincidental that they signed Francouz less than 48 hours later. Francouz was probably plan B IMO

    Also…..Rick Dipietro would be an upgrade on Montoya IMO….just too cost prohibitive at $4.5 million for 15 years…:)

    Chia could have done something that pissed neither of us off. He could have spend the $2.5M on a back-up tender but one that has an established history of success in the NHL – Hutton, Halak, Bernier.

    I wouldn’t have agreed with where he spent the money but I would have understood and, more importantly, I would be assured that he actually improved the position – we’d have an elite backup.

    He committed $2.5M in early May and there is a reasonable possibility he did not upgrade the position.

    Sure, Colorado may have been in on Koskinen and, if they were, they made the decision that the cost was too much, something I wish our manager had done.

  166. OriginalPouzar says:

    Munny: The hammer doesn’t drop on this till October. It certainly didn’t drop on the signing date.While a cautionary tale or two could be told, a complete freak-out is waaay out of proportion.There are obviously moves to come.

    Utterly immaterial.What you know or don’t know about a player weighs fuck all into any organization’s decision-making.This is merely justification for your personal outrage.

    Now if you have a scouting report or two that reveals something material, well then we have a conversation.

    Complete overstatement.

    You just admitted in 2) and 3) that to you anyways, he’s a complete unknown, and now you’re offering comps?

    He’s a complete unknown with respect to his ability to be an NHL goaltender. He’s got no proven track record (and, if anything, has a track record of failure in the NHL, however many years ago and a very small sample size.

    Its a ridiculous amount of money for a cap-strapped organization to spend on a wild card. The fact that his younger comparable signed for a quarter of the amount is some pretty strong evidence of what the market for this type of player should be.

  167. jtblack says:

    Fact: my wife is going to Game 4 in Vegas

    Fiction: an expansion team is on the verge of the Cup Finals

    …….

  168. jtblack says:

    IMHO this backup signing is exactly what Peter should have done in 2015 but he went with piss poor options that had poor track records and it backfired.

    could he have signed a better option? Perhaps but year to year the list of goalies you guys have named have up and down statistical records : that is why they were backups.

    The one thing we do know is that most good teams have a reliable backup so let’s cheer for this bastard

  169. jtblack says:

    Find a way to put Skinner on McDavids wing and he scores 45. FULL STOP

  170. leadfarmer says:

    Andy Dufresne,

    Language changes. Words change and add or lose meaning. Its defined an archaic term that no longer has that meaning. It’s like calling someone an addle pate. Sure once upon a time you really would have offended someone. Now they would just give you a weird look and say sorry I don’t speak French. You yourself even listed some recent law changes because that word no longer has the same meaning as originally used therefore those laws no longer made sense

  171. who says:

    OriginalPouzar: So we can’t discuss any moves until we see how they turn out?

    I guess we should shut down the comment section?

    I have no idea how he’ll perform. I hope he is the next coming of Kipper but, at this point in time, given everything we know and what is actually reasonable, the amount of money he received, in the context of our cap situation, is egregious, in my opinion.

    I hope he wins 3 vezinas over the next few years and 4 Conn Smythes.

    My point is that none of us have seen him play. I just don’t know how you can form such a strong opinion with such little information.
    And yes, they could have stuck with Montoya or signed another cheaper back up. But based on his salary I’m guessing they are expecting him to compete for the starters job.
    We’ll see how it works out.

  172. Jaxon says:

    jp: Very nice run for Kravstov as an 18 year old in the KHL; what’s historic about it?

    OriginalPouzar,

    Wilde,

    Kravtsov’s regular season is deceiving as well. Russian coaches are notoriously stingy with ice time for young players. Kravtsov got his 7 points in 35 games while only getting 5:12 minutes per game. He has 1.97 5-on-5 primary points / 60. The KHL equivalency factor is. 804. If you adjust for age and bring his minutes up to median top 6 5-on-5 minutes and adjust that to historical data that calculates to 46 primary points as a rookie, which is higher than Svechnikov (39), and right between Crosby (48), and McDavid (46). Now, caveat being small sample size and playing against 4th lines but I would wager that 4th line KHL is still better than most 1st line juniors so it’s still tough competition for a 17 year old. But it would probably reduce the KHL equivalency factor. Still, he’s dabbling in elite territory. Mix that with his dominant playoff performance and you have reason to believe he might be the steal of the draft. Along with Ryan Merkley (overblown attitude issues), Calen Addison (better offence than most realize), and Serron Noel (underrated offence, his 5-on-5 primary pts is equal to Zadina’s, in a huge frame with decent skating).

  173. Jaxon says:

    Trade spitballing:

    Trade #10 and Kassian to Florida for #15 and Mascherin. Draft Kravtsov, Merkley, Addison or Noel at #15, draft Nils Lundkvist (if #15 was Kravtsov or Noel) or Filip Hallander (if #15 was Merkley or Addison) at #40, and one of David Gustafsson, Jonatan Berggren, or Johnny Gruden at #71.

    If they could come out of the draft with something like Mascherin, Kravtsov, Lundkvist, and Gruden, OR Mascherin, Merkley, Hallander and Gruden I think it would represent a hugely successful summer.

  174. Richard S.S. says:

    Starting Goalies occasionally get hurt, sometimes often, which should be a surprise for no one. Not every Goalie does well playing almost every game, very few if fact, but sometimes a team survives a Goalie’s off game. So perhaps the caliber of the backup, who might be the Starter, matters. Not every Free Agent Goalie is consistently good enough to be trusted, yet alone being the Oilers’ backup.

  175. Andy Dufresne says:

    jtblack:
    Fact: my wife is going to Game 4 in Vegas

    Fiction: an expansion team is on the verge of the Cup Finals

    …….

    Arent you glad we tanked this year.

    Can you imagine after a decade of darkness, almost beating the Ducks in 2016-27 then LOSING in the Conference Finals to an expansion team?!?!?!

  176. digger50 says:

    Jaxon:
    Trade spitballing:

    Trade #10 and Kassian to Florida for #15 and Mascherin. Draft Kravtsov, Merkley, Addison or Noel at #15, draft Nils Lundkvist (if #15 was Kravtsov or Noel) or Filip Hallander (if #15 was Merkley or Addison) at #40, and one of David Gustafsson, Jonatan Berggren, or Johnny Gruden at #71.

    If they could come out of the draft with something like Mascherin, Kravtsov, Lundkvist, and Gruden, OR Mascherin, Merkley, Hallander and Gruden I think it would represent a hugely successful summer.

    You mentioned Mascherin earlier with a question about what would be a reasonable cost.certainly a third would be reasonable. Florida would love to recoup thier second but that rarely happens.

    Thing is, wouldn’t a team have done that already if he could be had for a third?

    So I am wondering what the ask is? And we simply don’t know.

    Florida may be holding out with nobody willing to meet thier ask. Rightly so, the closer to the draft and the pressure is back on Florida not to lose him for nothing. So they wait.

    You’d think he moves right before the draft.

  177. digger50 says:

    Do we have the GM who will outwait Florida and steal Mascherin? No we do not. If he wanted him he’d have him already for whatever the cost and be down be with it.

  178. Wilde says:

    My worry with Mascherin is that they’ll overlook his scoring ability and skill because he’s not a burner.

  179. OriginalPouzar says:

    who: My point is that none of us haveseen him play. I just don’t know how you can form such a strong opinion with such little information.
    And yes, they could have stuck with Montoya or signed another cheaper back up. But based on his salary I’m guessing they are expecting him to compete for the starters job.
    We’ll see how it works out.

    I can form a strong opinion because the money committed to this guy is elite back-up goaltender money that should be reserved for the upper echelon back-up tenders who have established themselves as such, have a track record of success in then NHL and who have a proven ability to provide starting goaltending in the NHL, at least in short stretches. The 29 year old Koskinen has not shown to be this guy and there are a few guys that have they will be UFAs.

    Not to mention, not even those that report on the KHL (and are respected in such roles) have been able to provide a reason why he would sign for 4X what Francouz would and are stunned by the same fact.

  180. Wilde says:

    Jaxon: OriginalPouzar,

    Wilde,

    Kravtsov’s regular season is deceiving as well. Russian coaches are notoriously stingy with ice time for young players. Kravtsov got his 7 points in 35 games while only getting 5:12 minutes per game. He has 1.97 5-on-5 primary points / 60. The KHL equivalency factor is. 804. If you adjust for age and bring his minutes up to median top 6 5-on-5 minutes and adjust that to historical data that calculates to 46 primary points as a rookie, which is higher than Svechnikov (39), and right between Crosby (48), and McDavid (46). Now, caveat being small sample size and playing against 4th lines but I would wager that 4th line KHL is still better than most 1st line juniors so it’s still tough competition for a 17 year old. But it would probably reduce the KHL equivalency factor. Still, he’s dabbling in elite territory. Mix that with his dominant playoff performance and you have reason to believe he might be the steal of the draft. Along with Ryan Merkley (overblown attitude issues), Calen Addison (better offence than most realize), and Serron Noel (underrated offence, his 5-on-5 primary pts is equal to Zadina’s, in a huge frame with decent skating).

    What site do you use for KHL TOI data? On en.khl.ru, they have Vitali’s aTOI’s as 5 minutes a night for /last year/, but 9:19 for 2017/18 regular season and 13:21 for playoffs.

    Also if we’re talking guys with high 5v5 primary point rates, then going with tradition I’ll throw Farabee’s 4.01/60 into the ring… again.

  181. OriginalPouzar says:

    I asked Patrick C (who I trust with respect to KHL information) why Koskinen cost 4X what Francouz cost and he had the following two responses:
    ———————–
    I’m a bit puzzled by that too! The only real huge difference in their career arcs is that Koskinen has at least a bit of North American experience, while Francouz doesn’t. And Francouz is slightly on the small side for an NHL goalie. But those are just guesses.

    Thinking about it a bit more here — there is also the probability that it costs a lot more to get a goalie away from SKA than from Traktor. SKA could easily marshal resources to compete with a <2M NHL contract. Again, just a thought.

  182. jp says:

    Jaxon: OriginalPouzar,

    Wilde,

    Kravtsov’s regular season is deceiving as well. Russian coaches are notoriously stingy with ice time for young players. Kravtsov got his 7 points in 35 games while only getting 5:12 minutes per game. He has 1.97 5-on-5 primary points / 60. The KHL equivalency factor is. 804. If you adjust for age and bring his minutes up to median top 6 5-on-5 minutes and adjust that to historical data that calculates to 46 primary points as a rookie, which is higher than Svechnikov (39), and right between Crosby (48), and McDavid (46). Now, caveat being small sample size and playing against 4th lines but I would wager that 4th line KHL is still better than most 1st line juniors so it’s still tough competition for a 17 year old. But it would probably reduce the KHL equivalency factor. Still, he’s dabbling in elite territory. Mix that with his dominant playoff performance and you have reason to believe he might be the steal of the draft. Along with Ryan Merkley (overblown attitude issues), Calen Addison (better offence than most realize), and Serron Noel (underrated offence, his 5-on-5 primary pts is equal to Zadina’s, in a huge frame with decent skating).

    Some pretty big error bars on that conversion, but he certainly does look like a potential steal. Thanks for the extra context.

  183. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    jp:
    WG or other, just wondering what you think about Klefbom’s chronically low PDO (the only exception being 16-17). I was thinking he looked quite a bit like Faulk by the numbers, probably due to HD box issues, but was surprised to see he did well by DFF%. He’s pretty consistently under-performed his CF%, SF% etc. Any thoughts on why and whether it’s likely to continue?

    By year:
    13-14 952 PDO (10/10) 44.26 CF% (5/10)
    14-15 956 PDO (7/8) 49.80 CF% (2/8)
    15-16 985 PDO (7/10) 50.80 CF% (2/10)
    16-17 1003 PDO (6/8) 50.44 CF% (4/8)
    17-18 972 PDO (8/10) 51.51 CF% (3/10)

    That is a concern for sure, but I think its less of a concern than I did even 6 months ago.

    I was commenting on this exact thing to a friend and he pointed out that the one season that we know Oscar was healthy, his PDO was “normal” so I’m a bit leery about moving him before seeing a year after this shoulder surgery.

    That said, its best not to just look at PDO, but to dig deeper.

    Players on teams with shitty goalering will always have a low PDO and EDM had shitty goalering.

    If you look at a player compared to his team mates then you can control for the shit goalering and/or shit goal scoring that can make a PDO move for a player through no fault of their own.

    I like to break it down into Relative Team Mate Goals For/60 and Relative Team mate Goals Against/60.

    This will show how he effects GF and GA rates for his team mates and is a pretty good measure rather than just on/off goal rates.

    Its the aggregation of the WOWY and is very useful.

    Also, you then need to take partners and usage into account.

    If a player is playing above their established ability, you should expect them to struggle.

    So here’s the last 4 seasons of Dreamy:

    Relative Team mate Goals For/60
    Player Season RelT GF/60
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 14/15 -0.11
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 15/16 +0.14
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 16/17 +0.32
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 17/18 -0.04

    Oscar looks good in 2 of the 4 years and last year was pretty close to break even and given his injury that’s probably “ok”

    I think this shows that EDM players score more with Klef.

    Relative Team mate GA/60
    Player Season RelT GA/60
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 14/15 +0.48
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 15/16 -0.04
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 16/17 +0.43
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 17/18 +0.46

    Pluses are bad here as more goals go in their own goal for the player’s team mates. Some of this may be due to comp.

    3 of 4 years are not good. We need to temper this with the fact that he’s played 1st pairing comp all 4 years, but its still not good.

    Its interesting that his best year was his injury shortened season in 15/16

    He looked great until he broke his finger and then of course he got the plague. He played mostly with Fayne and Schultz that year.

    His WoodMoney was 40% vs Elite that year too. Amazing year cut short by injury.

    I bet if he stayed healthy that year Peter doesn’t trade for Larsson.

    So when look at the overall goal share you get:

    Relative Team mate GF%
    Player Season RelT GF%
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 14/15 -4.0
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 15/16 +2.7
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 16/17 -0.9
    OSCAR.KLEFBOM 17/18 -3.6

    So rookie Klef is a drag in 14/15 (only played 17 NHL games at the start of that season, so he’s a rook) and he played mostly with Schultz. That result is understandable.

    Had a great 15/16 that was cut short. I can’t overstate how hard it is for 1st pairing Dmen to have good relative measures. He did it here.

    16/17 was a slight drag, but again as a 1st pairing Dman that’s not terrible. Its not good, but its not enough to hang him.

    17/18 disaster year. Not good at all.

    His worst year is his rookie year, the next two are either very good or ok while playing 1st pair comp and then has a very bad year, but we find out he needed surgery all year.

    Faulk on the other hand….

    Remember Faulk played 1st pair in 14/15 & 15/16, but 2nd pair in 16/17 & 17/18

    Relative
    Player Season RelT GF/60
    JUSTIN.FAULK 14/15 +0.45
    JUSTIN.FAULK 15/16 +0.10
    JUSTIN.FAULK 16/17 -0.31
    JUSTIN.FAULK 17/18 -0.08

    4 years ago CAR players got more goals with him, not so much after that.

    The fact that team scoring goes down while Faulk gets points is a big trap for anyone acquiring him

    Relative Team mates goals against
    Player Season RelT GA/60
    JUSTIN.FAULK 14/15 +0.73
    JUSTIN.FAULK 15/16 +0.68
    JUSTIN.FAULK 16/17 +0.22
    JUSTIN.FAULK 17/18 +0.34

    Again, remember that pluses are bad here.

    You can see how badly he was pounded as a 1st pairing Dman. Those numbers are HUGE. Not as leaky as a 2nd pair Dman, but still pretty leaky.

    Bring em together and you get:
    Player Season RelT GF%
    JUSTIN.FAULK 14/15 -2.4
    JUSTIN.FAULK 15/16 -5.2
    JUSTIN.FAULK 16/17 -5.6
    JUSTIN.FAULK 17/18 -3.9

    No sir, its not good. Especially for a 2nd pairing Dman who is supposed to produce.

    You can also see that he’s few miles down the road from Klef on this.

    There is a reasonable argument that Klef can keep his head above water while playing 1st pair, but Faulk was just buried and it didn’t get that much better when he moved to 2nd pair.

    So I wouldn’t equate the two players at all even though the both have the same symptom of “chronically low PDO”

  184. jp says:

    Woodguy v2.0,

    That’s awesome, thanks. I included team rank in PDO to partly take goalering into account, but this is levels above. Also clearly not the same case as Faulk, though I was only suggesting they were trending in the same direction. Thanks again!

  185. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    jp:
    Woodguy v2.0,

    That’s awesome, thanks. I included team rank in PDO to partly take goalering into account, but this is levels above. Also clearly not the same case as Faulk, though I was only suggesting they were trending in the same direction. Thanks again!

    You’re welcome!

    I’ve been meaning to break down Klef and put it up here anyhow.

    Breaking it down always seems to change my mind about something.

  186. meanashell11 says:

    Woodguy v2.0: You’re welcome!

    I’ve been meaning to break down Klef and put it up here anyhow.

    Breaking it down always seems to change my mind about something.

    I have been against Faulk but had nothing to really back up my opinion. Thank you for this.

  187. Bag of Pucks says:

    fwiw I would trade Klefbom for Krug, but would demand the 1st round pick coming back, not sending one to the Bs.

    KBom’s injury history has reached the point where that kind of deal may actually be selling high at this point.

    Was anyone actually happy with Oscar’s play last season? What I saw was serious regression on defensive positioning and system assignments. Worrisome.

  188. godot10 says:

    jtblack:
    Find a way to put Skinner on McDavids wing and he scores 45. FULL STOP

    McDavid and Nugent-Hopkins (who is stilled signed for three more years) are both putting up more points with each other than apart at any time in their careers, and people are still looking for a winger for McDavid.

    McDavid will score 50 goals and over 125 points with Nugent-Hopkins on his wing, and Nugent-Hopkins will be a 30 goal 80 point guy.

    The left wing “problem” for McDavid has been solved.

    Skinner would be unsolving the problem because he is only signed for one year. If he does well, he becomes unaffordable.

  189. Bag of Pucks says:

    Jaxon:
    In my search for formerly highly touted players who haven’t lived up to expectations, yet, I found the following players and sorted them into draft year categories.

    Draft Year Age & Era Adjusted 5-on-5 NHLe Primary Points with Top 6 MEdian TOI:

    2018 – Draft eligible players for comparison
    Filip Zadina 24

    If for no other reason, you acquire this player because he has the potential for the funniest player nickname ever:

    ‘Stick’ Zadina

    https://youtu.be/ny4tJHuL9pY

  190. Bag of Pucks says:

    godot10: McDavid and Nugent-Hopkins (who is stilled signed for three more years) are both putting up more points with each other than apart at any time in their careers, and people are still looking for a winger for McDavid.

    McDavid will score 50 goals and over 125 points with Nugent-Hopkins on his wing, and Nugent-Hopkins will be a 30 goal 80 point guy.

    The left wing “problem” for McDavid has been solved.

    Skinner would be unsolving the problem because he is only signed for one year.If he does well, he becomes unaffordable.

    And it only took the HC the better part of two seasons to try it.

    At this rate, we’ll have McDavid’s RW sorted in April 2022.

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