Flames at Oilers G81/07-08

We bring out the fierce Stan for tonight.

If Stan Weir wants your opinion, he’ll beat it into you.

Stan Weir lost his virginity before his Dad did.

There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of animals Stan Weir allows to live.

There is no chin under Stan Weirs’ Beard. There is only another fist.

Stan Weir has two speeds. Walk, and Kill.

When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for Stan Weir.

Outer space exists because it’s afraid to be on the same planet with Stan Weir.

Stan Weir doesn’t believe in Calgary.

Stan Weir will bring us money, fame and women of questionable reputation.

Ladies and gentlemen, Stan Weir!

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208 Responses to "Flames at Oilers G81/07-08"

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  1. Slipper says:

    Next season will be Matt Greene’s fourth professional season, or is that incorrect?

    I don’t consider that disingenuous.

    >”He’s really more like a two year NHLer”<

    Kevin? Is that you? Hello?

    Sorry Bruce, saw ‘em good lines like “hard won experience” din’t do it for me. Neither does a 32 game poitnless run at +2 versusu the absolute easiest competition of all defensemen on the Oilers with signifigant game time.

    Save the allusions to heart and grit and Bam Bam Lagevin for your arguments with people who accept opinions and conjecture as evidence. I’m not interested.

    You do make a good argument in favour of NHL teams not drafting defenseman though. Outside of generational talent, it does seem to takes 4-6 years for most of these guys to get it. So let other teams develop them.

    >”the guy has become reliable in his own end”<

    Not really. He’s put up just 33 games of pointless, but plus 2 hockey, against the softest competition amongst all Oilers defensemen.

    >”The bad guys aren’t making hay either, our bottom pairing guys have been holding their own plus a little bit.”<

    While successful bottom pairing guys elsewhere are dominating. Hrrm, what kind of team do I want to cheer for, anyway?

    >”You want to throw that away and (try to) find something better on the scrap heap of Used Defencemen Who Can Dominate Soft Opp?”<

    The “scrap heap”, huh? Then you go on in your next post to chastise me for calling bottom NHL’er “nobodies. Here’s a short list of some NHL defenseman currently making hay against the bottom competetion:

    Schneider, Huskins, Chelios, Lebdja, Brian Campbell, Doug Murray, etc.

    Right off the scrap heap.

    >”Yeah I suppose they are getting results. Look who their fucking forwards are. Look who their fucking goalies are. Look who their fucking teams are: the best in the league.”<

    Very eloquent right here, Bruce. Does it get tiresome preaching from on top of your mountain of wisdom? Dropping hockey cliches left, right and center, like “the school of hard knocks” and “every shift is a last battle”. Save that shit for your kids as I like you a lot better in the above quote.

    So yeah, I model the team in my head after good ones. Shoot me, I want to cheer for a good hockey team.

    What you don’t understand is that I don’t want or expect Greene to be any of those afformentioned players. I want one of those afformentioned players to be in Greene’s slot. I have no expectation of Greene to perform to their standards, because I’m realistic about his ability and would rather see a good player eating up Greene’s cherry minutes.

    >”Hear, hear. But hey wait a minute, aren’t you the guy who said Jarret Stoll’s -23 can be defended to the wall?”<

    Here it is! The classic Bruce McCurdy “Use Jarret Stoll’s shitshow season to deflect from the short comings of my new favourite heart & soul plugger”.

    Apples(quality of comp 0.09) to Oranges(-0.08).

  2. rickibear says:

    Posted 3 page conment explaining Sourays point numbers but I don’t see it. Don’t know were it ended up. Could Be In MLS Rumors for all I know So will paraphrase.

    I expected the Delusional and homer comment from you.

    Lets look at our PP.

    Souray First 16 Games Feed through him trying to use his shot. Slow passes from Hemsky (who was not shooting)or Cross ice feeds from Pitkanen into his feet. With Hemsky not shooting no chance for 1st Assist; only way he gets a 2nd Assist if Hemsky feeds person for one time after a second pass nada. Goal well with hemsky not shooting they were forcing hemsky side board tight to the line souray not able to get many feeds as they took his shot away. PLus Horcoff was on the other side Boards.

    His last Ten Games Shoulder done did not take shots.

    He did benefit from Kovalev on the side boards. That is because Kovalev shoots and scores.

    Look at PP when fully firing.

    Hemsky on side boards doing his spin-a-rama. He passes down low or to the point but he is taking shots. Still limmited combination of passes. Draws high man down lower.

    Pikanen/Gilbert right point feeding Stoll whom has a more open shot on point because of Gagner being on the left side boards.

    Penner adjusting his position based on whom has the puck.
    Hemsky then right side down low because he was not shooting but sometimes more. Nor does he expect a cross ice or slot pass. positions himself in front of the net when puck at the point.
    When gagner has the puck he goes: left side down; right side position for feed or in the slot for pass.

    Gagner: Talking to knowledgeable fans (though they were not oiler Fans)they made the point that Gagner makes passes only 5 or 6 players in the league could make. I really did not think up alist on this one but says to me his passing is visible.

    When he is on the side boards he passes: down low; to the point; cross ice low to a one time finish; to the slot for a one time; cross ice to the opposite side open slot to a dman breakin in for the shot and if they back off he is now moving to the circle for the shot. Frees up alot of space for Penner and Stoll on the point.

    When I write this I realize we should replace Hemsky with Nilsson with this group because he is willing to do the same things Gagner is and there passing skills are more accurate. Souray on the right point would be able to one time more because of the better space.

    Grebeshkov should be our left side point and Souray our right side point. They should be out for the full PP. Our forward sets: One group should be Gagner, Penner, Nilsson and our second should be Horcoff, Pisani, and Hemsky. I do know that Hemsky generates at 7.79/60.

    And finally:

    Yeah Slipper you are 100% correct. Souray is 100% at fault his 1.73/60is a clear reflection of him.

  3. Bruce says:

    Hey Slipper, glad to see I caught you in your usual cantankerous mood. Makes disagreeing with you easier, and more fun.

    Save the allusions to heart and grit and Bam Bam Lagevin for your arguments with people who accept opinions and conjecture as evidence. I’m not interested.

    When you compare players it’s called “comparables”. When I do it it’s “opinions and conjecture”.

    Sorry Bruce, saw ‘em good lines like “hard won experience” din’t do it for me.

    How about unanswered questions like:
    The guy is finally to the point that he holds his own and now you want to cut him loose and give the time to another player breaking into the league. Why, so we can suffer through another 150 games of growing pains with the new guy?

    Neither does a 32 game poitnless run at +2 versusu the absolute easiest competition of all defensemen on the Oilers with signifigant game time.

    I just don’t understand how you separate who he’s playing against from who he’s playing with. For the most part Greene is playing with and against bottom of the roster players. Do you really think playing with Ladi Smid is cherry minutes? And, do you value Greene’s performance on the PK unit even a little bit? Those 3-on-5 situations don’t tend to be against the “absolute easiest competition”.

    So yeah, I model the team in my head after good ones. Shoot me, I want to cheer for a good hockey team.

    So why don’t you just cheer for Anaheim?

    This Oiler fan likes to pull for the players throughout their development and growth period, and celebrate with them when they succeed. I won’t bring up the dynasty years in this context since that was extraordinary, but when the team finally made it to the finals in ’06 it was the guys like Smyth, Horcoff, Pisani, Moreau, Torres, Hemsky, Smith, Staios, and even Rem Murray who I was happiest for, guys who had played all or most of their careers here and had seen the hard times and grown from them. Sure the drive-by mercenaries like Pronger, Peca, Spacek and Samsonov played their part, but I didn’t identify with them in the same way. What can I say, I’m a fan first and an analyst second. I’ll even plead guilty to being sentimental at times. It’s a fatal flaw in this ‘sphere, I know … :)

    What you don’t understand is that I don’t want or expect Greene to be any of those afformentioned players. I want one of those afformentioned players to be in Greene’s slot.

    Sure, let’s bring in Matthieu Schneider to do Matt’s job. That won’t fuck up the payroll even a little bit.

    Hey wait a minute, we already got a guy like that, Sheldon Souray. Obviously the ‘sphere was very supportive of that move, signing a veteran to bring stability and goals to the third pairing. Let’s do it again!!

    Based on what I’ve seen, I’d rather have Matt Greene than Brett Lebda, another guy you named that is a very marginal player hiding out on a great team.

    Sure, bring on Douglas Murray or Kent Huskins. Both of them are older than Greene, have about the same amount of experience, and look real solid on a great team. Who’s to know how solid Greene might look on those teams? I sure don’t, it’s uh, apples and oranges.

    The classic … “Use Jarret Stoll’s shitshow season to deflect from the short comings of my new favourite heart & soul plugger”.

    That’s not it at all. I’m taking your own “every tier must outscore” argument and challenging you on it. Instead of an answer, I get called out (by name).

    I got lots of favourite heart and soul pluggers, “Slipper”. I like that kind of player, and I think, opine, and conject that to build a real successful team you need to build as much of your heart and soul from within as you can. Certainly the Oilers have suffered through some growing pains while the likes of Greene, Smid, Stortini and Brodziak have “hard won” the requisite experience … but as I keep saying those guys are ready now to play a positive role on the team, in fact they’ve been doing just that for the past three months, and I expect them to continue improving going forward. I’m not making excuses for these guys — I have high expectations for these guys. And while the cap age changes the way teams must be built and sustained, I remain convinced that the more of that you can do from within, the better.

    Apples(quality of comp 0.09) to Oranges(-0.08).

    Let’s ignore for the moment that I listed Stol’s QUALCOMP earlier in this thread in an extended (though unacknowledged) statistical analysis I conducted largely in support of your argument that he would be a difficult player to replace … but at other times that I have used Desjardins’ QUALTEAM or QUALCOMP to support a case I might be making (e.g. “Brad Richards is overrated”, for which I took a major drubbing on the ‘sphere from all you stats buffs), I kept reading stuff like “Desjardins is unreliable for that stuff”. But when you use it, well suddenly it’s the gospel truth.

  4. Slipper says:

    Rickibear: Could you please try explaining, in ten thousand words or less, how scoring less points and having an insignifigant effect on the first unit powerplay’s GF rating while in or out of the line-up makes Souray a better point option than any of the players I’ve previously mentioned.

    Thank-you.

    Bruce: Other than a back and forth exchange of what the coachpb calls ad hominem arguments, I don’t see any value in us taking the discussion further.

    For some reason I represent everyone who has ever disagreed with you on the sphere because you continually raise and attribute arguments you’ve had with others in discussions with me. I’m refering to things like the Brad Richards and the Dejardins comments; broach those topics with the people you originally discussed them with, because it wasn’t with me.

    Otherwise you’ll be named in mine and David Staples enormous defamation suit against the internet;)

    Lastly, I’m never telling people what they can and cannot root for or care about, for that matter. But I don’t have to accept that stuff as sound arguments within the discussion.

    PS. I don’t consider the Gagner line or the Crosstiniaks as bad linemates, ecspecially over the past 32 games. In the future be kinder to some of our young forward talent;0

    Buh-bye.

  5. Bruce says:

    broach those topics with the people you originally discussed them with, because it wasn’t with me.

    Fair enough. I treat the Desjardins QUAL numbers with suspicion, but they’re a heck of a lot better than nothing. I sure got it thrown back at me before; I can’t remember who all it was from the IOF crew, but I’ll accept that it wasn’t you and move on.

    I don’t have to accept that stuff as sound arguments within the discussion.

    Of course not. Will you accept that the other guys you mentioned like Murray, Huskins, and Lebda, were grown within their own organizations in a similar manner to Greene?

    I don’t consider the Gagner line or the Crosstiniaks as bad linemates, ecspecially over the past 32 games. In the future be kinder to some of our young forward talent;0

    I think I have been pretty kind to all of our young talent, both up front and on the blueline. I don’t hold unrealistic expectations that they’re going to be outscorers from Day One, and I am very happy — excited even — with the development the entire group of youngsters has shown this year. 2,5, 12, 13, 20, 25, 27, 37, 46, 51, 77, 78, 83, 89 — that’s a boatload of young talent 25 and under, and they’ve all made forward steps in ’07-08. This will be a fun team to cheer for going forward.

  6. rickibear says:

    I said:”Souray is our best PP point option. Controlled point shot that is above 100MPH or placed for effect.”
    He is our best point option.

    You said: “The numbers just don’t defend what you’ve stated about Souray being a top producing powerplay point man.”

    What this years numbers! 6 games healthy and 10 recovering and 10 hurt. People throw sample size as a statistical issue to me! F***!

    Teams adjusted there defense of the PP just to eliminate him in the first 16 games. What Horcoff, Penner, Hemsky, and Pitkanen did with the free space was not impressive.

    That is why I look forward to a first five I stated in the previous posts.

    I said.”The PP is more productive based on an adjustment to our down low play”
    See explanation re: Gagner

    I said “His is an elite PP producer even with a bumb shoulder.”
    You think points. I think line production.

    You said, “He is what people have said he is: a poor ES defenseman with a unreliable body, who had one good season on the point of an excellent powerplay team, and cashed in.”
    projected from 4 yr AvG: 16G 30A
    and how many players reach that level in a season:
    15G 30A 5players
    You look at his sht % and shot count for the last three year period before being hurt this year. He was on pace for 225 this year.I will take his 7.5% and 210 shots = 16G over the life of the contract.

    You said, “Sorry RB, but evidently the only things you can put in print that prove Souray is a dominant pointman on the PP are you own personal delusions.”

    I said Elite and Our best option.
    Being a defensive defenceman at EV
    we know most production comes from the PP.
    4 yr AvG: 16G 30A
    Only 5 dmen achieve that in a year.
    I think that is elite.
    Maybe in your personal deluded world that is not elite.

    You said: “Well for starters: Lidstrom(4.09/7.59), Streit(4.94/10.04), Gonchar(5.30/7.36), Boyle(4.54/7.44), Campbell(4.64/6.61)”
    Four of these are in the 40 assist club and those four almost all have 50. Boy the guys they pass to sure can finish. See explanation re: Hemsky and Pitkanen

    You said: “Could you please try explaining, in ten thousand words or less, how scoring less points and having an insignifigant effect on the first unit powerplay’s GF rating while in or out of the line-up makes Souray a better point option than any of the players I’ve previously mentioned.”
    100MPH SHOT 16GOALS The four you mentioned passing to Hemsky and Pitkanen would have taken a huge hit to there assist total.

    I said, ” Yeah Slipper you are 100%correct. Souray is 100% at fault his 1.73/60is a clear reflection of him.”

    Plus Slipper of all the commenters on here you are the bestest ever!

  7. Slipper says:

    OK, nice effort RB. Now if only you could put it in a legible format, I’ll repsond to some of your statements.

    Remember: More legible and even more words of you could manage it.

    Thank-you.

  8. rickibear says:

    Legible? Engineering vs. Art syntax is dangerous. Sentences longer than eight words are paragraphs. Thanks for the dicussion. Next year will make it clearer.

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