Sharks at Oilers, G40/08-09

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  1. Coach pb9617 says:

    coach – You do know Wes Walz is retired, right?

    Oh Kyle. I hate you.

  2. rickibear says:

    HBomb, BDHS: I worry about the 48M cap.

    Is Horcoff worth 5.5M in a cap world were he should be getting 4.5M.

    I am a huge fan of Horcoff (I’ve argued his intangables with many) and would keep him if he plays with Hemsky and scores like he did last year. Or if he centers a 1A line while the other Penner-Gagner-Hemsky plays soft.

    My no touch players:

    Hemsky,Gagner, Cogs, Brodziak, Omark.

    Vish, Grebs, Smid, Peckham.

  3. Coach pb9617 says:

    Is Horcoff worth 5.5M in a cap world were he should be getting 4.5M.

    Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    ricki, I don’t think you’re thinking this one through.

  4. YKOil says:

    Letang is the best bet for a difference maker. Scuderi is underrated and he would be a VERY nice low dollar babysitter going forward. And they still have their 1st round pick this year (which is always good). Pascal Dupuis is a decent LW who is cheap.

    Basically, and you do it now before they go on a tear and don’t need anyone or slip further and call it a day, you offer them a 5 star chance – via veterans – to guarantee their playoff spot.

    Swallow some salary the other way if you have to but if you can get them to think something like:

    “That Moreau is a warrior who will make us tougher and harder to play and will take Fedotenko’s spot next year”

    Then you do it. Other salaries that could come back the other way: Eaton and Gill.

  5. HBomb says:

    rickibear: That extra million a year that you speak of with Horcoff….if the Oilers had Glencross and Hejda instead of Moreau and Staios (hypothetical, sort-of), they’d save 1.5 million and have two better players.

    4.7 million total combined for a 5D and 4LW is a lot more worrisome than 5.5 million for a guy who can play on your first line against pretty much anyone.

  6. bookie says:

    All you guys are idiots and missing the obvious trades that would help this team

    First Brodziak for Crosby
    Second Sortini for Ovechkin
    Third Garon for Luongo or Mason
    Fourth Staois for Boyle or Markov or someone

    I would start there and then build…

  7. HBomb says:

    Well, MacT just used the term “mediocre goaltending” to describe Roloson tonight. 35, meet bottom of bus. Yikes.

    And apparently Stortini is off to the hospital already.

  8. Cloned says:

    This whole thing is a mess right now.

    Most of the vets don’t care that we’re losing (and Captain Moreau is leading the charge with his blame games and “I can do no wrong” arrogance) and the kids are starting to either

    a) lose confidence
    b) lose passion
    c) resent the vets
    d) all of the above

    The kids deserve some blame, but really, it’s the vets who should be showing the way – not throwing rocks and nails on the road to make it tougher for the kids to feel comfortable.

    This is going to divide the locker room and we’re going to end up like Tampa Bay if things don’t change soon.

    The whole lack of effort thing -it’s a byproduct of playing this passive 1-2-2 (and playing it poorly, I might add). They’ve become complacent with passivity and are more concerned with tracking the puck and making sure they’re in position than in making plays with the puck and without the puck. Ironically, they’re overcompensating for it and as a result putting themslves out of position.

    Whatever trades we make, we better make sure we get the *right* kind of veteran talent in here this time around.

  9. Lowetide says:

    That’s a tough break for Stortini. The guy isn’t my favorite player but he has a lot of try and has made himself useful in a defined role.

    That injury did not look good.

  10. Cloned says:

    MacT’s post-game comments (paraphrased):

    - Stortini is off to the hospital

    - they’ll have to try and eek out a win on Sunday – that’s a ringing endorsement if I ever heard one…

  11. YKOil says:

    bookie: Penner is a very good complimentary player for a 1st or 2nd line. You only have to see what his stats are like with Horcoff and Hemsky to see that.

    A lot of teams can use a guy like that. Pittsburgh being one of them. And I don’t really care if Godard or Cooke is one of the contracts coming back for Cap reasons – bury the one contract (or play Godard if you want to tank the season) and flip the other.

    Pittsburgh doesn’t have much. No question. But I see Letang as being a possible break-out guy and those don’t come around very often.

  12. Asiaoil says:

    Been obvious since about G10 that the problems are MacT and his little cabal of vets (Staios, Moreau, Roloson). The anti-leaders so to speak. Here is my rebuild:

    Front Office: Lowe to non-hockey upper management after taking over the coaching job for the rest of 08-09 season. Tambo is new GM. MacT retires with pay as of yesterday. All the assistants except Huddy are ditched in the summer and replaced with useful human beings.

    Forwards: Horcoff, Hemsky, Cole, Cogliano can stay in the top 6. Brodziak, Pisani, Brule and MAP can stay in the bottom 6. Moreau is traded for anything. Gagner and Penner are what we give up for a legit scoring forwards.

    Defense: Lubo, Smid, Gilbert can stay. Consider selling Souray and Grebs high. Get rid of Staios and Studwick ASAP.

    Goal: Garon will rebound after the coaching staff changes (fire Peeters immediately). Deal Roloson now and leave JDD in the AHL. Pick up a vet backup to get through the year and re-think everything in the summer.

  13. Coach pb9617 says:

    Letang is the best bet for a difference maker. Scuderi is underrated and he would be a VERY nice low dollar babysitter going forward. And they still have their 1st round pick this year (which is always good). Pascal Dupuis is a decent LW who is cheap.

    But if Shero is halfway intelligent (which I’m beginning to doubt. I really think that Taleb’s luck factor in measuring traders applies even moreso to GMs) he’s not giving up Letang, Goligoski, Scuderi. They are the only affordable pieces on a team that has $41.7 million against the cap next year in Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury, Gonchar, Orpik, Whitney, Dupuis, and Cooke. So if the $50 million cap is a possibility, they’ve got $8 million for 13 players and they have no wings.

    Before the Staal deal I could see it, but Shero can’t give up his cheap talent now, he just can’t. If anything, Shero has to look to move one of Staal/Whitney and Gonchar. Gonchar and Whitney make no sense here and Staal’s contract is horrible. Unless you make this a menage a trois, the two aren’t compatible. Now, if the Pens fall apart, I inquire about Scuderi and Gill and see if you can flip the low picks for them.

    I’d be targeting Phoenix, Florida, Atlanta and the Islanders.

    Phoenix and Florida are bleeding cash and would likely take on young cheap talent for older expensive talent. Atlanta needs depth of talent and the Islanders have a bunch of pieces.

  14. Coach pb9617 says:

    Well, MacT just used the term “mediocre goaltending” to describe Roloson tonight. 35, meet bottom of bus. Yikes.

    It’s deserved. The first three goals were all AHL saves.

  15. Coach pb9617 says:

    Goal: Garon will rebound after the coaching staff changes (fire Peeters immediately).

    Based on what?

  16. HBomb says:

    Coach: Can’t disagree. Roloson was crap tonight.

    Asia: Why the hell do you want to give up a 19 year old in Sam Gagner? If you’re rebuilding, that is precisely what you do NOT do.

  17. Asiaoil says:

    HBomb….because we have Gagner, Cogs, Nilsson, Schremp and Eberle – and you need to give something up to get an elite player. One of Cogs or Gagner has to go to get this player IMHO.

    Garon will rebound if MacT goes because he’s a decent goalie that has been bitch-slapped over coaching. Get rid of MacT and Peeters and Garon will be fine.

  18. slipper says:

    Shouldn’t it be required that a team show a little sustain before they serve as the model to build your team after. Right now the Bruins are lasy year’s Habs, who were that season’s Sabres.

    You’re kidding yourself if you believe there is a sermon a coach can deliver that will persuade his players to shoot 10% or better.

    Right now Lucic and Wheeler are both shooting 20% at evens.

    Kessel, Ryder and Krejci are all shooting above 13%.

    BOS’s EV save percentage when Savard, Kessel, Lucic, Krejci and Yelle are on the ice is above .950%. The entire team’s save percentage is above .940%.

    Glen Sather was right in the thick of it when the Eighties Oilers were being the Eighties Oilers, yet he could never replicate that kind of finish amongst any of the rosters he later assembled or coached.

    Right now the dice are hot in Massachusetts. Enjoy it.

  19. HBomb says:

    Asiaoil: Of those five players you listed, Gagner is the absolute last guy I give up. The only guy more untouchable in the organization is Hemsky.

    If Burke was allowed to declare Getzlaf off-limits and still get Pronger, Tambelloweni should be allowed to do the same with 89.

  20. HBomb says:

    Right now the dice are hot in Massachusetts. Enjoy it.

    And if the Habs join them at the table in the playoffs, bet the farm on the Bleu-Blanc-et-Rouge.

    Not for any logical reason, however. No matter how good the Bruins may be in any given season, Montreal has had their number since Mackenzie King was in the PM’s office.

  21. Coach pb9617 says:

    Garon will rebound if MacT goes because he’s a decent goalie that has been bitch-slapped over coaching.

    Where? I see a journeyman with middling stats.

  22. YKOil says:

    No question Atlanta would be a wonderful team to fleece but they lost their burning need to make the play-offs they don’t have the dimes they need to add to payroll.

    Kovalchuk won’t be available until next year (ticket sales) and as nice a player as Armstrong is he fits too well with their salary needs.

    Hence there is little opportunity to trade for their 1st rounder and we don’t need Schneider, Reasoner, et al when it comes time for Waddell to dump them at teh deadline.

    This is one of the few years where I think it is better for teams to make their trades well BEFORE the deadline. To many teams will be dumping assets (Toronto, Atlanta, probably Ottawa, Islanders, St. Louis) and the market will depressed because of it.

  23. Cloned says:

    slipper:

    I think it has more to do with Boston being a better systems team than us right now. That was my point – less about coaches giving sermons, more about coaches designing X’s and O’s.

    I’m just incredibly frustrated with the way the team is playing right now under the current system.

  24. slipper says:

    I’m a fan of Claude Julien. That said, I’m skeptical that any design of his could propel Tim Thomas to perform like Hasek on a steroid-HGH-amphetemine cocktail, or inspire his players to finish like the Cup winning Penguins.

    Maybe I’m wrong, and Boston can carry this through all the way to Lord Stanley, but that would put them up their in most elite performances ever. Maybe not Gretzky Oilers, but probably Lemieux Penguins territory. Which would defeat your anxieties about the Oilers, because that would mean the Bruins were light years ahead of Edmonton in terms of talent, because I hope that if we can agree on one thing- this current Edmonton team couldn’t touch those early 90′s Pittsburgh squads.

    I mean Marc Savard (God love him, he’s turned his career around and has proved himself an elite NHL center) takes the lion’s share of defensive zone draws for the B’s (only Chara and Wideman have seen more) and does the tough sledding opposition wise. The fact that the on ice save percentage behind Savard is nearly 96% is mind boggling, when you consider the calibre of opponent he is facing who are shooting just above 4%.

    Detroit has taken around 130+ more shots than Boston and allowed 150+ fewer shots against at even strength. Yet Boston takes the advantage with 19 more Goals For and 15 less Goals Against. Detroit’s EV shot on net differential is +266! while Boston’s is -39.

    Would one attribute those differences to coaching, execution or talent?

  25. Cloned says:

    I’m getting this from second-hand listening, but apparently Moreau just made a comment that I’m completely flabbergasted at. Regarding Souray, he said:

    “I didn’t even know he got hurt. I guess he wasn’t having a good game because I didn’t notice even know…”

    Like… dear lord. This is bad, folks, real bad.

  26. Cloned says:

    My above “quote” from Moreau was paraphrased from the second-hand source, btw.

    slipper:

    Fair enough, I’m just trying to determine why, with two similar rosters from the outset, the two teams (Bruins and Oilers) have taken such divergent paths.

    Talent, maturity and player development/overachievement is one thing.

    But it can really account for such a wide disparity in points?

    Or are there other reasons, such as the coaching staff having a more positive impact on team performance through system adjustment and adapatation, or through other traditional means like “motivation” or “teaching?”

  27. Coach pb9617 says:

    Penner Horcoff Hemsky
    Gagner Horton Cole
    Pouliot Cogliano Pisani
    Brule Brodziak Stortini
    JFJ!

    Souray Gilbert
    Vishnovsky Smid
    Peckham Melichar!
    Roy

    Labarbera
    Deslauriers

    $51.1 million

    !Please note that these are hypotheticals.

    Nilsson, Grebs and Pick/Prospect for Horton and Pick.

  28. Coach pb9617 says:

    A man can dream, eh?

  29. HBomb says:

    Cloned: I know Joe Thornton said something about not noticing Souray got hurt. I think you might have your captains mixed up.

    If Moreau said something like that, I could see a bloody and violent coup erupting in the Oiler dressing room, if such a thing were possible.
    44 could kick 18′s ass in a fight.

  30. RiversQ says:

    Cloned: Boston’s probably got a better roster, they play lesser opposition IMO, and as slipper noted they have had an astounding amount of “This-Can’t-Keep-Happening.” I think that’s more than enough to explain the disparity.

    I don’t really care about MacT at this point because this franchise is, or should have been, building for 2010 and 2012 anyways. Underpromise, overperform is generally a good maxim. If the Oilers front office took that tack to start the year they wouldn’t be wringing their hands so much right now.

  31. Cloned says:

    HBomb:

    Maybe, but the TEAM is playing back those comments and it sounds like it’s Moreau. He did laugh at the end of the entire interview though, so it may have been in jest. Still though, tonight isn’t the time to be joking after a 4-1 loss at home.

    He also apparently said something about the second and third year players on the team having to step it up and play more like 5th or 6th year players.

    I wish he’d stop calling other teammates out, jokingly or not. Or at least call yourself out first.

    RQ:

    Maybe, but they play in a pretty nasty division with Buffalo and Montreal. (Granted, TO and Ottawa suck)

    Even with the “this can’t keep happening” development or shooting %, I think there’s something else there.

  32. Phil says:

    I believe that the Coyote picture is even more relevant post game.

  33. Cloned says:

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news again, but Staios had some interesting comments after the game (again paraphrased).

    When asked about the age gap in the locker room, he said something to the effect of “it isn’t the same anymore” and said there was no energy anymore.

    There’s definitely a split – whether it’s due to problems with communication, relationships or animosity, we’re in deep trouble if this continues.

    Management will have their hands full deciding who to keep and who to trade, and it would be quite likely that we’d get far less than equal return on those trades.

  34. Garnet says:

    Is the average Edmonton fan feeling the same way about the current team as the posters here do? Because I suspect nothing will change until the powers that be start to see empty seats in numbers.

  35. Fake Craig McTavish says:

    Not to worry folks. We have Horcoff and he’ll rise to the occasion and carry the team into the playoffs.

  36. Bruce says:

    I’m depressed.

    I picked the right game to miss, an easy Sharks win was in the cards all day, but to lose a couple of warriors is the last fucking thing this team needs.

    Way too early to know what’s what with Souray, but his combination of toughness, (real) leadership and scoring would be pretty close to impossible to replace for any length of time.

    For all the commentary about Zack Stortini’s lack of talent, he is probably both the hardest working and most physical player on the team, and is on the short list of least selfish, most team-oriented guys in the room. Those are all elements that are in short supply on this club and will not easily be replaced. Sounds like the previously-indestructible Zorg might be gone for awhile; I sure didn’t like the look of that ugly takedown on the lowlights. Couldn’t handle multiple views, but at first blush it seemed dirty and dangerous.

    Add these latest blows to a team already drowning with the indefinite loss of its leading scorer and some clear division in the locker room, and it’s not hard to imagine 2006-07 all over again.

    For fuck’s sakes.

  37. Kris says:

    Yeah Bruce,

    For as much as I bag on Stortini, you’re always right to remind us that he’s at least a decent 4th line banger: something we have in short supply. His loss almost guarantees that the 4th line will be Dominic Pittis bad.

    —-

    Obviously a trade is in order, but just as obvious -given the low number of substantial trades so far this year- is that a serious trade is highly unlikely.

    I mean, Ottawa hasn’t gotten a substantive deal done this year. Seriously. Ottawa. I can’t imagine it’s for lack of trying.

  38. grease trap says:

    Where’s Rob Daum when you need him?

    Man, I can’t stand watching Moreau on the ice. I cringe every time he tries to be a steamrolling hero and ends up flat on his ass, the puck trickling harmlessly away from the net. And the bullshit he pulls with Poo… WTF??

    This team has a whole fuckin lot of i’s in it. They couldn’t function as a unit if their lives depended on it. For that, you really to have to look at coaching. MacT may still be in the clubhouse but man, he left the building months ago.

    He’s spent but can’t seem to see it. Amateur gong show, that’s what this Old Boys Club is. And we, the drooling plebes, fill the seats every night anyway.

  39. hunter1909 says:

    I like Stortini.

    He’s freaking hilarious.

    If he ever improves his game, he’s going to be a useful player.

  40. Coach pb9617 says:

    When asked about the age gap in the locker room, he said something to the effect of “it isn’t the same anymore” and said there was no energy anymore.

    Sounds to me as if Staios is already lobbying for a trade.

  41. HBomb says:

    If there’s a disconnect between the veterans (i.e. Staios and Moreau) and the younger core in the room, the solution is obvious.

    Out with the old, in with the new. I’ve heard things off the record from people with connections that there’s a split in the dressing room, with MacT, Staios, Roloson, and Moreau on one side and Souray, Horcoff, and the “kids” on the other side.

    Until last night, there was no hard evidence of this. Which group gets spared and which gets purged should be obvious.

  42. Asiaoil says:

    Break out the tar, feather and torches and chase MacT, Staios, Roloson and Moreau down Jasper Avenue toward their buses out of town.

    But honestly it’s nice to hear that Souray and Horcoff are on the right side of the room – the one that should still be here in a few weeks if there is a point to watching this squad for the rest of this season and next.

  43. Doogie2K says:

    And if the Habs join them at the table in the playoffs, bet the farm on the Bleu-Blanc-et-Rouge.

    Not for any logical reason, however. No matter how good the Bruins may be in any given season, Montreal has had their number since Mackenzie King was in the PM’s office.

    The Habs have been devastated by injury all year (Komisarek, Koivu, Price, Higgins, and Tanguay have all missed notable time) and are still close to or better than the pace they set last year. Meanwhile, Boston has been on the PDO# gravy train all year. There’s your rational reason.

    Also, you’re forgetting the late-80s/early-90s, when Montreal was good but Boston was slightly better. The Neely-Bourque Bruins owned the Roy Habs for most of those years.

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