Pat Quinn & Tom Renney?

Media event in moments. We’ve talked about Quinn here and Renney here.

Detailed reaction after my stroke.

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85 Responses to "Pat Quinn & Tom Renney?"

  1. PDO says:

    Quick, where is the online presser?!

  2. bookie says:

    Is this the new ‘Old Boys Club’ to replace the Old ‘ Old Boys Club’ – Everybody who failed in Vancouver is now going to be the core leading this team?

    I really dont know if this is good or bad, but I am impressed that we managed to hire two head coaches, maybe we can add arneil (sp?) and have 3?

  3. Tyler says:

    Maybe Pat Quinn is the guy, maybe he isn’t. Maybe Tom Renney is the guy, maybe he isn’t. What an astronomical coincidence though, that this guy just happens to have longstanding professional ties to the same people he’s hiring for positions tht Kevin Lowe did. Amazing.

  4. bookie says:

    “I want somebody who matches up with the type of play we want to see here. We want an aggressive type of play, we want an emotional team. We want a team that is not standing on its heels. We have people here with skill and I want to see it.”

    That was from the MacT firing presser – does ReQuinny address this?

    ReQuinny?

    Quirenny?

    TopPat? (sounds like Tom Cat..)

    Quirnny?

    ?????

  5. PDO says:

    Presser is on The Score.

  6. Steve says:

    I hear Huddy’s out, Bucky’s staying. What about Moores?

  7. uni says:

    Quinn is sitting next to Tambo.

    I used to really enjoy Quinn while he was in Leafland…I’m neutral on this.

    Like I said he’s a hell of a motivator, and if Renney dots his i’s and crosses his t’s and Quinn lets him this could work out.

  8. uni says:

    Presser is also on the NHL site and the NHL Oilers site.

    I gotta say that I’d hate to lose Huddy. I don’t think I care much for Buck; Huddy seemed to run the D pairings pretty well.

  9. Daniel says:

    So Quinn kicks the ass, and Renney takes the names.

    We’ll see.

  10. quain says:

    This is neat. We fired MacT to replace him with two retreads who, by eye and record, aren’t particularly great.

    Couldn’t we have at least picked some plucky young upstart? I think I’d prefer to have a mediocre team headed by a crazy guy who gave a good quote.

  11. bookie says:

    TambaLorequninnyatz?

  12. Gerta Rauss says:

    ..the oilers may need a new building just to house the management staff…:)

  13. grease trap says:

    Why is Bucky at the table??

  14. uni says:

    Bucky is being retained…the other assistant coaches are gone.

  15. Dennis says:

    I assume Quinn is here to tell stories and motivate and Renney’s here to teach.

    Just as I type this, Fat Quinn says “Tom’s a teacher.”

    I dare say they’re gonna take the Det approach to managing and try to apply it to coaching.

    Renney ran a wicked PK last year so there’s a start. How did the PP look while Quinn was in TO? I”m thinking it was pretty damn good.

    Though my recollections of Quinn’s success in TO always goes back to Joseph and Belfour being better than their opponents.

    Which I guess we can say about every team that wins outside of Detroit.

    See how I tied it all together:)?

  16. uni says:

    Quinn giving apropos to Fred Shero as the man who made him want to be a coach, and as a man who was way ahead of his time =).

  17. Lord Bob says:

    You know what? I don’t know why but that’s it. I’m out. I’m a hockey widow now. When people say “so, how about those Oilers?” I will say “I thought they moved to Tennessee and became the Titans.”

  18. George B says:

    I was thinking when I heard that I wouldn’t have been happy with either guy alone but with both, that fills a lot of holes.

    Quinn is a sharp guy, and Renney is bright as well. I thought Renney was very similar to MacT and Quinn was a little long in tooth.

    Seems like we get the best of all worlds….PLUS no Crawford. :)

  19. Coach pb9617 says:

    I really wish that they’d have gone with something new. Rather than go with a branch of the family tree, they go with a branch of the step-son’s family tree.

    Familiar must be hockey’s favorite word.

    Shit.

  20. jon k says:

    I like Tambellini’s choice.

    I think we get a situation where multiple areas of concern with the team can be addressed effectively, and I think the two of them will complement each other nicely.

    A small glimmer of optimism. Feels weird.

  21. wuzzles says:

    Anagrams for Pat+Quinn+Tom+Renney:

    * Top Entry Mannequin
    * Pennant Money Quirt (quirt – whip with a leather thong at the end)
    * Quint, Neaten My Porn!

  22. digger says:

    George B:

    That’s where I think I’m arriving at with this as well. Either/or, and I would’ve met it with a whole lot of ambivalence.

    Together, it’s like Master Blaster from Beyond Thunderdome…crazy, but it might just work.

  23. NBOilerFan says:

    I’m with Coach.

    I’m not upset with this, though I am surprised that its both Quinn and Renney, but I’m not sure I’m happy either (shock I thinkl)

    … but I really was hoping that Tambs would show his knowledge and have enough balls to go for a new young coach with plenty of smarts and good pedigree whom is on the upside of his coaching career.

  24. Smytty777 says:

    I think Quinn and Renney have very different strengths and if they can figure out how to use them effectively (Quinn’s motivational skills, Renney systems skills) then you have a hell of a coaching staff.

    I’m not sure that I understand the negativity, sure maybe Arneil or Dineen can be good coaches, but are they more qualified than Quinn and Renney combined?

  25. NBOilerFan says:

    I think what I am most concerned about is how well they will indeed be able to work together…. and thus hopefully, not counter-effective.

    This is certainly looking more and more like its Tambellini’s team though.

    … and Bucky looks scared.

  26. slipper says:

    On paper those Toronto teams look shit, yet Quinn had a pretty good run with them.

  27. grease trap says:

    That’s your nickname right there:

    “Master Blaster”

    Awesome.

  28. Coach pb9617 says:

    You know what? Screw it. I’m not going to be pissed at this. At least it wasn’t Buchberger, Messier or Lowe.

  29. Coach pb9617 says:

    Now comes Jagr and Bouwmeester.

  30. HBomb says:

    You know what? Screw it. I’m not going to be pissed at this. At least it wasn’t Buchberger, Messier or Lowe.Or Crawford. Biggest fear avoided right there.

    I like this. Hopefully they make it even better and add a Dineen or an Arniel as an assistant to the staff.

    That being said, keeping Bucky and letting Huddy walk is, in a word, stupid. Nobody has been able to explain to me as of yet how Kelly Buchberger is qualified as an NHL assistant.

  31. Julian says:

    Dennis, someone at Mirtle’s posted TO’s PP results under Quinn, it looked pretty damn good…

    Powerplay

    2005-2006: 21.4% – 2nd
    2003-2004: 20.1% – 4th
    2002-2003: 17.5% – 11th
    2001-2002: 15.4% – 15th
    2000-2001: 16.0% – 18th

    18th would be awesome, but really, it’s got nowhere to go but up.

  32. LittleFury says:

    That’s your nickname right there:

    “Master Blaster”

    Awesome.Which one is which, though?

  33. jon k says:

    I have to admit that I don’t understand entirely why a lot of people seem to think that going with a “new young” coach is a better choice than someone (or in this case two someones) with an established track record which includes success at the NHL level.

    If you were hiring for a management or specialist position in the employment world you would never hire the candidate with less experience over someone with an established track record of success at the position you’re hiring.

    Cases where the less experienced individuals are hired are exceptional, and usually involve the hiring person having direct past experience in working with that individual. Which ironically enough, seems to be a source of criticism for Tambellini already.

    If you are interested in a young up-and-comer it would seem much more prudent to follow them closely and then poach them into your organization at the earliest opportunity, grooming them rather than betting the farm on them.

  34. NBOilerFan says:

    HBomb said…
    That being said, keeping Bucky and letting Huddy walk is, in a word, stupid. Nobody has been able to explain to me as of yet how Kelly Buchberger is qualified as an NHL assistant.

    I wonder how much of this might have been Huddy’s choice. Any chance he ends up with MacT on another team?

  35. Julian says:

    This may be of interest to people, though I haven’t read it yet…

    http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2008/10/27/647035/pat-quinn-speaks-to-pensio

  36. jon k says:

    To clarify, my position would be to poach and groom one of the many promising coaches such as Arniel or Dineen who appear ready for promotion to the NHL level. Quinn seemed to imply that the last assistant would be such an individual.

  37. Smytty777 says:

    HBomb: I agree on Bucky vs. Huddy. What does Bucky do exactly? He must have solid connections with Katz, Lowe and Tambo.

    If we could bring in Arneil or Dineen as another assistant that would be unreal.

  38. George B says:

    Further on, there also is some suggestion like an Arniel or Dineen could be added at a later date.

    The other parts are two fold.

    1. Coaches of that calibre have contacts that may assist in other areas like attracting free agents.

    2. The last time the Oilers had a two pronged(no pun intended) approach to administration, the Motivator(Slats) and the Systems (Muckler), seemed to work pretty decently.

  39. Vic Ferrari says:

    Slipper:

    I ran into the Leafs in a hotel in about 2002, they were having a team meeting in the conference room next to the one I was in. Quinn is a physically big man, and that whole team was massive. I was frightened for the Oilers after seeing those guys. And there weren’t any obvious weaknesses in the forward ranks, those were deep Leafs teams.

    He played an uptempo style in all zones too. They wanted the puck.

    Then after the lockout the first game I see is Leafs/Ottawa … and Ottawa is is playing an assertive game and the Leafs are sitting back. The world was upside down.

    He played a hard trap all year there, and again had the Canadian Olympic team playing conservatively.

    I don’t like that style of hockey much, just from an entertainment point of view. It will be interesting to see what he does with this roster. I don’t think that the Oilers have enough good forwards right now to play an uptempo game. And they have a lot of guys that don’t seem too interested in going into the corners to fight for the puck. So a passive style may be in order.

    Quinn is loathe to play a forward on the PP point as well, so this roster should suit him that way.

  40. LittleFury says:

    I hope Quinn busts out the leather shirt he appears to have on under his Oil Kings jersey in that sweet photo.

  41. NBOilerFan says:

    jon k said…
    To clarify, my position

    … and to clarify mine, I had Renney at the top of my list so this is a good fit for me, juststill initially a little shocked by this tandem system. And I do agree that they have there own strengths and hope they can make this work (and my optimisim says it should).

    But I also really liked the idea of a younger, fresher face whom is very famailar with the new NHL game, knows system play and can implement some new fresh ideas (ideally). Especially after having one coach for so many years and a feeling of a stale system.

    I personally don’t think teh yonger fresher is necessarily better then the older experienced (or vioce cersa). But liked the idea of yonger, fresher ideas…. kinda reminds me of spring. ;-)

    … and Quinn is also a pretty good post-game presser replacement for Mact.

  42. Aram says:

    i like it

  43. bookie says:

    I think I am ok with Quirenny, both as the new portmanteau and as the new coaching team of the Oilers.

    I think there were other options out there, but that this is certainly one that deserves a chance.

  44. bookie says:

    I also think its good that Quirenny can be pronounced to rhyme with Tyranny so it can be used in statements like.

    Lets pretend that the coach(es) rant about Moreau’s stupid penalties in a post game presser and suggest he may sit a few games.

    “Moreau faces Quirenny Tyranny”

  45. rickibear says:

    //Now comes Jagr and Bouwmeester.//

    The defencemen top 60 (first pairing) in EVGA, EVG, EVPts, PKGA, PPG, PPPts:

    Chara
    Weidmen
    Blake
    Green
    Souray
    Seidenberg.

    I don’t see Bouwmeester on there coach.

    Jagr and Seidenberg Please.

  46. Shawn says:

    Renney is a former Trail Smoke Eaters coach. Horcoff is a former Trail Smoke Eater. Tambellini is from Trail.

    *thumbs up*

    Big Quinn fan too so I’m happy about this.

  47. Black Dog says:

    Tambellini might have toyed with the idea of Dineen or Arniel but he strikes me as being inherently conservative so the hire is not surprising other then its two guys. But they are experienced guys. Tambellini has been waiting for the GM’s chair for a long time. If he blew this hire it may have been his last chance. Hard to argue with Pat Quinn as your pick. I didn’t particularly like some of his traits in Toronto but I think Renney may offset some of that.

    Guy has a long track record, some success.

    Dennis is right though – those Leaf teams he had success with relied heavily on goaltending.

    I think that might explain the post lockout change in tactics. iirc the Leaf goaltending after the lockout was meh compared to before.

  48. Sean says:

    I’m glad Bucky isn’t the head coach but I’m gonna stick up for him as assistant.

    - You want the team to play tougher he’s not a bad influence.
    - He has coached since 2004 – decent experience for an assistant coach.
    - He seems to have done well mentoring Peckham and Reddox
    - In his one season as head coach, he had a 500 record – better than most Oilers affiliates which have been shambles since 1999.
    - In his 16 years as a player he did a lot more with a lot less than 90% of the players he played against. That can potentially rub off on players. Work ethic and compete are valuable traits, Bucky did that well.

    Anyways, fire away but I like the choices and dont consider Bucky a negative where he is.

  49. Coach pb9617 says:

    If you were hiring for a management or specialist position in the employment world you would never hire the candidate with less experience over someone with an established track record of success at the position you’re hiringThe “track record of success” of Quinn and Renney combined is two pennants in 25 years, with the last coming 15 years ago.

  50. Ken says:

    Both??? I was leaning to Pat over Tom, but both??

    I was thinking they needed to decide between veterans (Quinn) over youth (Renney).

    What the heck? Is this an attempt to do both poorly? I have no clue about relations between the two men but it better be obvious to everyone involved what the roles are.

    Wow.

  51. Bruce says:

    Well that was unexpected. Not one but two ultra-experienced coaches. I would say two for the price of one, but I daresay it’s at least the price of one and a half. I’ve always hoped the benefit of a rich owner in the cap era would be felt in the organizational level, including management, scouting both amateur and pro, player development, and why not coaching?

    If they can co-align on the same page philosophically, each brings different strengths that at first glance seem fairly complementary. Quinn’s reputation as a communicator and motivator appears to run the gamut of age groups. I would anticipate Renney would get lots of scope to run systems and practices and perhaps even the bench on occasion. And, he’s not Ricky Ley.

    Meanwhile the Oilers players who may have tired of hearing the same old voice will be hearing two new ones and authoritative voices at that. As long as both deliver a consistent message the time for excuses is over.

    As for Buchberger, I understand the frustration but as was the case when he was a young player, patience is key. When he broke in he was like Zack Stortini was two years ago, all warts and rough edges. The object of no little derision especially at first, Bucky worked harder than anybody, soaked up information like a sponge, and drove the twin engines of heart and desire to capacity on a daily basis. He was, and presumably remains, the ultimate team player. As a coach he perhaps achieved better results in Springfield than it seemed at the time, and who knows what he did or didn’t accomplish last year. He’s clearly the #3 man on the new totem pole, which is fine by me. If he had somehow been given the head job, that wouldn’t have been fine at all, but the current situation calls for a little mortar between the bricks which is a role Kelly understands well. It’s a hell of a learning opportunity for a young coach to put it mildly.

  52. Sean says:

    Good on ya Bruce re Bucky. I was expecting to get roasted there and we were both typing our defenses at the same time. Quite a surprise.

  53. Bruce says:

    Hey Sean, this way we can both get roasted.

  54. gogliano says:

    As I noted in the thread below, I like the idea, but am most pleased that Katz seems to be willing to spend extra money at the organizational level. In a cap era, that is important going forward. So I’m with Bruce on this point at least.

  55. Doogie2K says:

    The one thing that PPP mentioned along with the power-play stats Julian grabbed was that the last two years of top-five PPs coincided with Bryan McCabe’s renaissance as a power-play point man. So Quinn certainly understands how to run that option without sacrificing the rest of the play.

  56. Vic Ferrari says:

    Quinn has made some terrific post game commentary over the years, most of it centering on scoring chances, unfortunately the writers were looking for soundbites that they could slide into the story they had already written, so these comments from Quinn very rarely made it to print.

    I did find this quote from Quinn, discussing the post-lockout NHL.

    “Everyone’s looking for cookies all the time now, gambling sort of plays,” Quinn said. “There’s a lot of cheating going on the offensive side and you give up out-numbered attacks.”

    Wait till he starts looking at Oiler game tape :D While the message from Renney and Quinn will doubtlessly be much the same as the message from MacTavish and Huddy … maybe if some of these guys hear it from enough different coaches they’ll eventually start to believe it. We’ll see.

    Plus these guys aren’t going to be run out of town on a rail, no matter what. They are the new GM’s boys, and neither are new to NHL coaching.

  57. oilerdago says:

    Interesting reading the thread. I can’t say this move has me feeling any kind of emotions at this point – probably because it feels like summer outside.

    No question the best argument for this is the idea that they have their roles and it could harken back to Sather/Muckler. You can do lot worse if that pans out.

    What they do with the roster that’s handed them is going to be the proof and I’ll hold judgement until I see what happens. If Quinn can get more out of the under-achievers and Renney can fix the PK then we’ll all feel good about this move.

  58. Vic Ferrari says:

    Another quote from Quinn. via asapsports.com, the 2002 Eastern Conference Final.
    Q. How much has the style of play changed having to accommodate a different lineup than having all of your guys healthy?

    COACH QUINN: Not a lot. We have, roughly, a system, a style of play. I’ve always liked to believe that I am not a demander; that you must be at Place X at a certain time. The system won’t control us. I’d like to think I allow the players to control their system. So when players come in, they have some freedoms. Less defensively when we lose the puck; maybe that’s why we’ve had some trouble because guys might confuse that freedom from offense to defense and think that they could have it all the time. But we are supposed to be a little more disciplined within our system of play and rely on others to do certain things at certain times when we don’t have the puck as for when we have the puck than when we do have the puck. Primarily we have not changed very much. I might have done a little line matching a little bit that I don’t do during the regular season, but philosophically, we have taken the same approach. So, very similar to MacTavish in fact, though very different to the strategies that Bob Stauffer seems to see in games.

    I don’t see Quinn running this way for long with the Oilers. He’ll try to change players at first, but my guess is that he will realize by mid November that some of these guys are going to accidentally hang him with the rope he’s provided them … and it will be a hard trap from there on out. Or personnel changes, I suppose.

  59. uni says:

    This may be of interest to people, though I haven’t read it yet…

    http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2008/10/27/647035/pat-quinn-speaks-to-pensio.

    That was a good read, thanks for the heads up Julian.

    I always liked Quinn, and I always thought he was a very intelligent person. Hopefully Renney can shore up any perceived deficiencies in the systems play.

  60. Garnet says:

    Looking at Quinn’s record I note that he has almost always had elite scoring talent at his disposal, which rather pads the W-L totals. (Reggie Leach and Bill Barber in Philly, Bure in Vancouver, Robitaille etc. in L.A., Sundin and a rotating cast of millionaires in pre-cap Toronto). Usually, in fact, he’s come to the job with those guys already in place. Wonder how he’ll cope with this roster?

  61. Gerta Rauss says:

    …and where is LT in all of this…furiously pecking at the keyboard with his next post..?…or perhaps he has had a stroke…can 1 of you Edmontonians run up and ring his doorbell…

  62. Jon says:

    Am I the only one that is starting to think that LT actually works for the Oilers org?

    The only two coaches he did an “in the box” piece was for Quinn and Renney…it’s like he was floating info to the fanbase.

    Just sayin, he has been pretty bang on.

  63. Bruce says:

    he has almost always had elite scoring talent at his disposal, which rather pads the W-L totals. (Reggie Leach and Bill Barber in Philly, Bure in Vancouver, Robitaille etc. in L.A., Sundin and a rotating cast of millionaires in pre-cap Toronto).

    You mean millionaires like Jonas Hoglund?

    High-end offensive guys like Leach and Bure brought their own set of challenges which can negatively impact W-L percentages on the “it’s what you leave” side of the equation. It’s not all roses with guys like that.

    As for the Oilers, the high-end offensive guy already in place is Ales (Don’t Call Me Alex) Hemsky. I would suggest that 2009-10 is put up or shut up time for Hemmer. Given the new lease on life, I expect him to “put up” bigger numbers across the board.

  64. Coach pb9617 says:

    Am I the only one that is starting to think that LT actually works for the Oilers org?

    Lowetide IS the Oilers org.

  65. doritogrande says:

    I like the acquisitions, but how does the bench work in this kind of situation?

    Does Renney line up alongside Quinn? Or is he looking from up on high, like a hockey equivalent of the Offensive Coordinator in football?

    I kind of prefer the second scenario. Let Quinn be the motivator coach behind the bench while the system-planner Renney focusses on practice and film study to prepare our boys and identify their negative tendencies. It’s outside the box a little bit but I think it suits the style of coaches we’ve brought in.

    Tambellini’s done well, but I agree that bringing another into the fold like Scott Arniel would be a coup for the ages.

  66. Gerta Rauss says:

    @ Bruce
    Agreed,Agreed,Agreed.
    I like Hemsky,he is our best player by a mile.
    But assuming he doesn’t “put up” next year,and the team misses the playoffs for a 4th year in a row,the Hemsky window will have-for the most part- closed…and you’ll have to start asking yourself if the core group of guys you have on this team are indeed the guys you want to be building around.

    Hemsky with 2 years left on his deal would bring a ton in return.

    I really hope it doesn’t come to that,but I don’t think he’s untouchable given that set of circumstances.

  67. mc79hockey says:

    It’s an interesting selection. Two things stick out about Quinn, one of which Vic’s thing seems to support. First of all, he’s a four line kind of guy, or at least I recall him being one in Toronto. I seem to recall that there was a constant uproar about Sundin’s icetime being insufficient.

    Second, he’s not really a line matcher, IIRC. Renney, however, is. I’ll be interested to see how it plays out. It’s an interesting combination of things.

  68. Bruce says:

    Gerta Rauss: Agreed. For Hemsky, “next year” has finally arrived.

  69. mc79hockey says:

    @Vic: You’re a rarity amongst hockey fans, in that you’re pretty adamant in your belief that NHL coaches know what they’re doing and make the right decisions most of the time. I’m close to a variant of your position – I don’t think that coaching impacts the game that much, because I think that most coaches who are positioned to coach in the NHL would make similar decisions on things.

    Here’s the thing though: we know, in baseball, that managers do crazy unjustifiable shit all the time. They make brutal strategic decisions. They complain about how they don’t like their batters getting walks and clogging the basepaths. There’s just tons of this shit out there. Until, really, the past few years in MLB, there were tons of moves that just made absolutely no sense from a managerial level, in terms of trades.

    What I have a hard time reconciling is the idea that NHL coaches and GM’s are necessarily any stronger at figuring this out. Why would hockey be different than baseball in that regard? Is it that the decisions of a coach in hockey – generally what system his team should play and who should be on the ice – require less weighing of potential outcomes than baseball questions?

  70. delooper says:

    re MC79: IMO saying he’s a “four line kind of guy” isn’t saying much. If you’ve got a balanced team you roll 4 lines, if you’re more superstar heavy with some seriously weak filler material tossed in, you double shift your best players. Coaches work with the hand they’re dealt. There’s some wiggle room but you rarely see coaches fighting against the nature of the beast unless it’s for a reason, like developing young talent.

  71. mc79hockey says:

    IMO saying he’s a “four line kind of guy” isn’t saying much. If you’ve got a balanced team you roll 4 lines, if you’re more superstar heavy with some seriously weak filler material tossed in, you double shift your best players.Your first line is always better than your fourth line. The size of the gulf may differ but Mats Sundin is a pretty awesome hockey player; there’s some active decision making going when you reduce his ice time. I’ll be interested to see what that does to Horcoff.

  72. Dennis says:

    Ty: Yeah, I watched a lot of those Leaves games and I don’t think Quinn was a hard matcher but I think that’s just the kind of guy that Renney IS. I didn’t catch the presser until about 350NST but one of the first things I heard was Pat talking about he didn’t know which guy would change the D and which would change the lines. I’ve got a feeling that someone comes in to change the D, Renney works the F and Buchy’s the eye in the sky.

    And, yeah, we can probably unearth the evidence but Cherry was always going fucking mad that Sundin wasn’t getting the TOI in the playoffs that the other stars were usually afforded.

    What I think is interesting about this is that the Oilers are using two older guys to try a pretty new system. You’d think that older guys would have egos that would hinder such an arrangement but maybe they’re secure enough that they’ll take the other’s advice.

    I think I’m more intrigued about the new set-up then I am about the people playing the parts. It seems wrong that Quinn coaches anyone other than TO and, overall, it’s the summertime so it’s hard to really get jacked about October.

  73. mc79hockey says:

    What I think is interesting about this is that the Oilers are using two older guys to try a pretty new system. You’d think that older guys would have egos that would hinder such an arrangement but maybe they’re secure enough that they’ll take the other’s advice. I think I’m more intrigued about the new set-up then I am about the people playing the parts.

    Yeah, I think that this is a good point. I’m like you in that I’m not too interested in the people playing the parts. How it works out is of interest to me.

    The fact that Rick Ley isn’t around yet might be a bit of a tip-off. Didn’t he always used to run the D for Quinn?

  74. Coach pb9617 says:

    As far as I can remember on those teams he rolled four lines by giving the fourth a shift every other time through the progression.

    1234
    123
    1234
    123
    1234

    All the way through the game.

    For some reason, I seem to remember him getting his 4th line out after PKs and PPs both, no matter what. I might be way off, but that sticks out in my mind.

  75. Scott says:

    Ley has run the D for Quinn for a very long time. Quinn seemed to be pining for him in the press conference so we’ll see if he ends up in Edmonton.

    I like the move to Quinn (and Renney) overall. Renney has a reputation for managing personalities well so maybe he’ll help the boys feel a better sense of unity which, if nothing else, might make them easier to cheer for.

    There’s a good chance for this team to have some success next year if they can just improve their special teams while maintaining their results at EV. It sounds to me like Quinn had some good PP results in Toronto and Renney some good PK in New York so hopefully they can each replicate that success here.

  76. Vic Ferrari says:

    I don’t think that’s the case with GMs necessarily, admittedly you’ve done much to convince me of that.

    And with coaches, Granato is off the hook. Guys like Stauffer rate him because they can see nice geometric patterns on the ice on a team he’s coaching … you don’t see that with Keenan. So to Bob the game seems like mayhem in the own zone for the Flames, and nicely ordered for the Avalanche. But really Granato is playing uber-conservative box and a man in for no apparent reason, he’s shooting himself in the foot. And Keenan is playing to his strengths, a good D corps.

    I don’t mean to take a cheap shot at Bob, I miss him on drive time sports radio, he does a surprisingly good job with the colour on the radio broadcasts, and few can see through the noise of the percentages better than him. And I know that the Joffrey “cherrypicking is my game, but I call it exploiting stretch pass opportunities, and so does my friend Bob!” Lupul poisoned the man on the coaching staff. Still … nonsense is nonsense, dude has to wean himself off the video games. Drives me nuts.

    Denis Savard teams averaged the lowest shots directed at net in the NHL. WTH? I loved Denis Savard as a player, but damn, that just doesn’t make sense. I have no doubt that Quenneville made a difference there, but probably 100 other guys could have too.

    Coaches always have favourites and biases (WTH did Zetterberg do to piss of Crawford btw? It’s bizarre.) and everyone gets a fresh start, so that’s good. There will be new whipping boys with Quinn, we just don’t know who yet. But a clean slate is always good in the grand scheme of things, or so I think.

  77. Vic Ferrari says:

    How is it a new system if Quinn doesn’t match lines? Cogliano, Penner, Nilsson and Gagner are going to appear to regress significantly.

    Horcoff and Hemsky’s rate numbers will go up a bunch, Moreau too. Perhaps they will regail us with a tale about a trip to the stick factory in Tijuana.

    I hope they do, Tijuana is the capital of a few things, and it’s a sign that they are doing their own legwork and will never get caught. Good for them.

    For crying out loud, Clemens should have been taking notes, there are no excuses for getting caught in this day and age. If it was me I wouldn’t even trust my own brothers … there would be a Vic Ferrari Women’s and Children’s Shelter in Juarez first, THEN Tijuana. Damn good excuse for being there at any time, even though only a handful of people would raise an eyebrow. It’s a lot of money in this league, safety first.

    And I would handle my own thing on the hockey side, work out in L.A in the summer for sure, and I’d be steeped in the high end quick twitch stuff. Hell, maybe I’d even have the audacity to bring some press on a junket, WTH. Again I’d hit Juarez first, just in case one of these guys is smarter than they look.

  78. Vic Ferrari says:

    coachpb

    I remember Ludzik expressing the same thing. Of course games with a lot of penalties will throw a wrench into that.

    Have you checked the old shift charts to see how true that is, pb? Games without penalties will give a cleaner indication.

    The upside of this though … I bet if you go back to games with coaches that run power vs power, which is most of them … Sundin may have played less, but Babcock or Lewis will have run the same pattern to get Z out against Sundin. So in those games Z plays less EV minutes too. Same with Modano, Fedorov in the day, Thornton as a B, Forsberg before injury … then Joe. And so on.

    Point being: Bench coaching aggressively is a lot of work for a marginal gain. You give to Peter and pay Paul. And often make bad players look better than your good players in the process, but that’s just the way she goes.

    Still, it doesn’t cost anything to do it, so what the hell.

  79. Vic Ferrari says:

    Here’s the thing though: we know, in baseball, that managers do crazy unjustifiable shit all the time. They make brutal strategic decisions.I think that “know” is a very strong word in this case.

    Given enough time, puck prospectus will contradict everything I’ve ever written about hockey. And they will ‘prove it’, in their way. And I probably will mock it eventually, but the wise thing would be to sit back and watch.

    Though they don’t know it, people make decisions with emotion. The logic and reason, and the math that expresses it … that’s just there to help them rationalize the emotional decision that they have already made. Nothing more and nothing less. Though I suspect that you already knew that.

  80. Lowetide says:

    The best example of crazy stuff happening in baseball was Whitey Herzog, and he was the smartest man this side of Earl Weaver for a long, long time.

    Which leads me into something I’ve always believed about sports: there’s more than one way to skin a rabbit.

    Herzog and Weaver and their styles provide proof.

  81. Vic Ferrari says:

    Yeah, LT. I wrote a crude script to strip play by play stuff for Gene Mauch’s teams, just word search from the retrosheet.org play by plays, by season and team. It’s crude. But I think Gene’s smarter than we think.

    BTW, the beauty of K/W is the poor pearson correlation … because the baseball crowd is swimming in Performance Oils, and there are any slippers to be seen. It’s perfect.

    And Bill James’ log5 is the mathefication of a table-top baseball game from your childhood. Nothing more and nothing less. And it’s wrong. That cat has made a lot of money for a lot of people, and few of them are baseball fans.

    Roger Neilson has kind of effed up hockey, but MLB is virgin territory, Lain.

  82. mc79hockey says:

    Though they don’t know it, people make decisions with emotion. The logic and reason, and the math that expresses it … that’s just there to help them rationalize the emotional decision that they have already made. Nothing more and nothing less. Though I suspect that you already knew that.

    Generally speaking, I think that this is true. I actually thought that the Oilers presser was the second best Alberta hockey press conference today. Sutter was dropping some crazy stuff.

  83. Lowetide says:

    Gene Mauch. If there’s one guy who deserved a WS ring it was him. Vic, have you read the accounts of how his teams flagged at the end? The Phils? The Twins? The Angels?

    It was painful to watch the Angels collapse. I’ll never forget that year.

  84. Doogie2K says:

    Looking at Quinn’s record I note that he has almost always had elite scoring talent at his disposal, which rather pads the W-L totals ([...] Robitaille etc. in L.A. [...])Robitaille and Carson were rookies in Quinn’s last half-season. Other than that, it was the aging Triple Crown line, and not a whole lot else in the era of run-and-gun hockey. (Brian MacLellan’s career year doesn’t count.)

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