Horcoff Hockey’s Dangerfield

Shawn Horcoff needs some PR help. In a recent article published in the Calgary Herald, Craig Conroy is quoted as stated the following: “Nothing against Horcoff, but $7 million for Horcoff, $7 million for Jarome?”

The numbers to remember when it comes to Shawn Horcoff are 5.5 (that’s the cap hit) and and 1 (that’s the number of people on the roster who can do what he does).

Shawn Horcoff is a fine NHL player and it is amazing to me that someone like Craig Conroy feels comfortable taking shots like this one. I expect it’ll pass through the electronic media without mention, but in this one little corner of the Al Gore let it be said that Shawn Horcoff and his contract are one thing this hockey team shouldn’t worry over.

written by

The author didn‘t add any Information to his profile yet.
Related Posts

97 Responses to "Horcoff Hockey’s Dangerfield"

  1. bookie says:

    Craig Conroy should get a beating from his own team for that interview.

    First, he suggests that the Ref's favour his team. I am sure that suggesting that will work out well for the Flames in the future. Refs like to be identified as biased.

    Second, calling out a player on another team is always a bright thing to do, particularly when its a respected vetran and you have no reason for doing it.

    I am looking forward to a season of further disfunction and underperformance by the Flames.

  2. Kristopher Milligan says:

    I for one, agree. Horcoff is really the only complete two way (Iginla like) forward on the team. Obviously some of our younger guys could one day end up with a similar skill set, but that day is not here yet. Its understandalbe the critisism that Horcoff has recieved considering the poor (offensive) year he had immediately following his all star (then injury) year, yet with the oilers striking out in virtually every procurement department, this guy on this team is a shining star of hope.

    And we should all be kneeling before our beds each night praying that he stays healthy (and that someone else on the team learns how to take faceoffs)

  3. Kyle says:

    Wow…nice one Conroy. He should worry more about his own team.

    Kipper is getting paid $7M this season also. Not to mention Phaneuf. Both of which are nowhere near as valuable as Iggy.

  4. quain says:

    "Nothing against Kiprusoff, but $7 million for Kipper, $700,000 for Stortini?"

  5. Boondock says:

    I think it might be more a case of contract envy than disrespect.

    I run into a guy every once in a while who played for the Oil around the turn of the century. More than once, Todd Marchant's deal with Columbus has come up because this guy thought he was a better player and never saw that kind of scratch in his career.

  6. bookie says:

    LT, let me explain the reason why people harp on Horcoff.

    Many people have very limited cognitive capacity and on top oif this, they choose to use it judiciously.

    In other words, they are too stupid to understand the complexity of what Horcoff brings.

  7. NormanMendoza says:

    Those are really odd comments — players almost NEVER publicly talk about each other salaries. Not on their own teams and not on other teams.

    Some cracks in the NHLPA starting to appear?

  8. Dennis says:

    Conroy's a hard worker and his contract's a real bargain but the guy absolutely never stops running his mouth and there's a lot of foolishness that comes from it.

    It's funny that LT highlighted him today because just this morning I read a Cgy=centric piece on Phaneuf where Conroy was talking about how Dion could be the best defenseman in the world.

    Yeah, that's right, bud.

    But beyond Conroy being a mouthy clown, the biggest issue here is professional jealousy and if it isn't considered taboo to point out a fellow union member's contract in print, then it fucking well should be.

  9. bookie says:

    One example of how people have real trouble with even the simplist of complexity is that people keep talking about Horcoff as a $7 million player, when the real number if $5.5

    So, really, people are having trouble with complex things like salary caps being averaged over more than one year and that for certain reasons some players have high and low years.

    Pretty basic, but beyond a lot of people it seems.

  10. HBomb says:

    Phaneuf, the best defenseman in the world?

    He's the third best defenseman on his team.

    LT, have you got the link to the article in question? I'm thinking about pouring myself a vodka and sprite later and commenting on this drivel elsewhere, if you get my drift.

  11. George B says:

    HBomb, how does a guy get an invite?

  12. HBomb says:

    George B, send me an e-mail from whichever address you use for your Blogger account, and I'll send you one, assuming you promise to keep it good and dirty once you start posting there.

  13. jesse r says:

    Bookie,

    YOU ARE WRONG. Everyone knows there are two caps under the CBA.

    The one that players' salaries count against in the current playing year, and the one that is used to prove that all the players on your team are overpaid bums. If you listen to Gregor, he'll explain it all via text messages from Rick Olczyk.

  14. quain says:

    HBomb:

    Are you opening up a brothel? Maybe a sex club in Paris? Is Jeri Ryan going to be there?

  15. Kyle says:

    Well said LT.

  16. goldenchild says:

    It doesn't help that the media that covers Horcoff locally makes the same comparison over and over again never bringing up the cap number which is the only number that matters. How many years has this cba been inplace and they still don't get it?

  17. Bling says:

    Hemsky is a fan of playing with Horcoff, is he not? If you ask me, that's a pretty hefty compliment.

    Then again, what are 83's options? :P

    Horc will log major minutes on an improved first unit PP this year, and that will help his numbers. If Quinn sticks with his credo of rolling the lines — and by the looks of the lineup, he isn't bluffing — Horc will be relied upon less heavily for situational matchups as well.

    I think the guy will have a nice year.

  18. bookie says:

    Two questions

    1. Is it safe to say that Horcoff is NOT one of the vetrans that Quinn has been talking about as lacking leadership?

    2. What time does Reddox clear waivers?

  19. Bruce says:

    Conroy's a hard worker and his contract's a real bargain but the guy absolutely never stops running his mouth and there's a lot of foolishness that comes from it.

    True, true, true, and true. It's good to have you back, Dennis, you call things as you see them, both good and bad. Conroy's a good player but is verbal diarrhea incarnate.

    I actually kind of like him, despite the occasional idiot comment. I used to call his line with Smilin' Jarome and Marty Gelinas the Happy Line, which was a lot more complimentary than names I've applied to other Flames' combos over the years.

  20. digger says:

    2. What time does Reddox clear waivers?

    One of the HF mods reported nearly an hour ago that Reddox has cleared waivers.

    Grain o' salt, and all that.

  21. Bruce says:

    Wasn't it noon EDT today for Reddox? I've got my fingers crossed that he clears.

  22. HBomb says:

    quain: You could call it the brothel of the Oilogosphere, I suppose, but minus the ladies of the night. Fire me an e-mail and I'll send you an invite for posting privileges. Somehow I think you'd fit in just fine….

    Bruce: I just lampooned Conroy at the above-mentioned site, and managed to work in a fairly long anti-Dion Phaneuf rant with an "up yours Jason Blake" sidebar that may be considered in poor taste. Fueled by an 11am vodka cocktail, I'm trying to lead by example.

  23. Lowetide says:

    Reddox cleared. It's interesting that Schremp was taken from waivers and Reddox was not, because Reddox is a better player with wider skills and is cheap as cheap can be for the NHL roster.

    Chris Bourque picked up by the Pens btw.

  24. bookie says:

    Reddox cleared. It's interesting that Schremp was taken from waivers and Reddox was not, because Reddox is a better player with wider skills and is cheap as cheap can be for the NHL roster.

    Have you seen Reddox's YouTube clips??

  25. ian says:

    Horc will be fine this year although I think it will be another year of "thankless tasks" and little recognition.

  26. bookie says:

    Horc will be fine this year although I think it will be another year of "thankless tasks" and little recognition.

    I hear that Joey has him ironing the towels.

  27. quain says:

    It's interesting that Schremp was taken from waivers and Reddox was not

    I think it's interesting because if I've got the first overall pick who clearly has high-end offensive skills my first thought isn't, "You know who I should pair this kid with? A junior superstar who never translated his game to the NHL and refuses to give up 'Rob Schremp Hockey' to make it to the bigs."

    I just look forward to the inevitable slap fights in the locker room over which is better, 'John Tavares Hockey' or 'Rob Schremp Hockey.'

  28. gogliano says:

    I'm with NMendoz, I'd be unsurprised to learn that Conroy and Horcoff don't see eye to eye on union issues. Though it might just be contract envy.

    My bet for the season: this year is the year Hemsky outplays Jarmoe for the bulk of the season, and not just for the stretch of a few weeks. At a much lower cap hit, by the way.

  29. Ribs says:

    I just look forward to the inevitable slap fights in the locker room over which is better, 'John Tavares Hockey' or 'Rob Schremp Hockey.'

    I heard a rumour that they plan to wear matching capes onto the ice in the warm-ups. Sweet.

  30. chartleys says:

    I don't get why this is even a debate anymore.

    Horc 5.5 2014-15

    Equal or lesser value (factor in scope of role as well)

    Scott Gomez 7.4 2013-14
    Drury 7 2011-12
    Brier 6.5 2014-15
    Sedin 6.1 2013-14
    Marleau 2009-10 6.3

    Better value…but can play to a draw:

    Datsyuk 6.7 2013-15
    Zetterberg 6 2020-21
    etc.

    We are maybe talking about a half million over median market value when you go through the cap hits. AND THAT'S A MAYBE. Long term, not testing free agency, when free agency was a worthwhile place to test, it is beyond me why this contract of all gets kicked around like it does. Sure if you look and say you can get 1 yr of Tanguay for 2.5 every contract looks bad. But for the love of jebus can we please at least here move on. You factor in market conditions etc there was nothing wrong with this contract and I for one am tired of having to hear about it.

  31. Oilmaniac says:

    The number to 'think' about is…

    What would you be quoting as a cap-hit if horcoff was never given 7 mil for a single season…

    I bet it would be lower and even easier to swallow…

    I know I would like it that much better…

  32. rickibear says:

    Conroy is one one of the best ev Centers in the league. Faces tough comp, outscores, +ve corsi, zone shift not sur on. The rfa's make 3.5 -4.5M the ufa's make 5.5-8.7M

    All except one who makes 1.05M conroy. I thought what loyalty!

    After reading this I realize his salary is him being "A dumb ****"

  33. Oilmaniac says:

    Good counter punch Kyle,

    "Kipper is getting paid $7M this season also. Not to mention Phaneuf. Both of which are nowhere near as valuable as Iggy."

  34. Schitzo says:

    First you get a great player like Crosby, iginla, THEN you open the vault.

    I wasn't aware that those players had a 5.5/year cap hit. Thank you, hunter, for enlightening us once again.

  35. hunter1909 says:

    Horcoff getting that kind of ridiculous amount of money is like a plain Jane like Renee Zellweigger being hyped as a babe.

    Please Lowetide, do us all a favour next time you want to talk up this silliest of Oilers contracts. First you get a great player like Crosby, Iginla, THEN you open the vault.

    Paying huge money to first rate second rate players is exactly why this team is looking no more prosperous as a cup contender than it did in 2000.

  36. hunter1909 says:

    schitzo:

    No problem.

    Here's another fun thing for you to keep yourself occupied:

    Add up the following contracts: Horcoff/Nilsson/Staios/Pisani/+Moreau.

    It adds up to years staring into the professional sports abyss.

  37. Oilmaniac says:

    Haha Hbomb..

    "Fueled by an 11am vodka cocktail, I'm trying to lead by example."

    anyways.. I dont know why all of you hide behind the cap-hit value.. yes yes, there have been front loaded contracts (briere for ex) and that the single season dollars dont matter but c'mon… a forest is made of many trees, just as this contract is over 5 years (summed then averaged)

    Its not like the remaining 3 or 4 years are at a bargin price… this is just another case of a pisani, staois, moreau, good-soldier salary blow job and you all give it more credit than it deserves by hiding behind the lesser number – the average…

  38. MattM says:

    Oilmaniac:

    Well, if you just drop the 7 million dollar year and make it a 5 year contract, he'd be on a 26/5 deal, so 5.2. A little nicer, but not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.

  39. Oilmaniac says:

    *High-Fives Hunter*

  40. SK Oiler Fan says:

    While he is a bit of a fire hydrant, I don't think Conroy meant his comments in a condescending way. However, mentioning another team's player and salary in the same sentence is a no no.

    There were better candidates to compare Iggy's salary to. I'm curious why Conroy chose Horc.

    Conroy was a poor man's Horc 4-5 years ago. Maybe he is bitter that he never got close to Horc's salary.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Conroy got a scolding from the Furer Bettman for these comments.

  41. Oilmaniac says:

    MattM:
    What about the two following years of 6.5…

    then 6 and 4… is 4 mil the bargin.. if we are talking about a future conroy in 5 years than Id say – No…

  42. MattM says:

    Also: Why we hide behind the cap hit value? Because it's the only one that matters. From a fan perspective it's the EXACT SAME CONTRACT as if it were an even 5.5 every year. The dollar value is completely irrelevant. If we cheered for Nashville it would matter. But our owner is Batman, so it doesn't.

    No one is hiding, we're just focusing on what matters. Now, the fact that he's a 5.5 cap hit at 36 as well might very well matter, and is a far more interesting complaint than that he's making 7 million dollars in actual money this year.

  43. bookie says:

    and you all give it more credit than it deserves by hiding behind the lesser number – the average…

    The only thing that matters is the salary cap hit. The proportional shifting of the year to year amount is done for stratigic reasons regarding income flows of the team and the tradability of the player in the future.

    So, it would be incorrect to suggest that he is being paid $7 million for his work this year. Rather he is being paid $5.5 million.

    Given that you don't get that already, it was probably a waste of time explaining it.

  44. Oilmaniac says:

    Oh FUCK OFF Bookie…

    I GET THAT!!!

    Jeez… c'mon… im just saying the argument is flawed and horcoff will never out-perform a single year of his albatross shit-eatting contract..

    Good for him tho, bad for lowe…

    Dont get me wrong, I want him on this team.. its just a dumb contract and the longer you hide from 7,6.5,6.5, + + + than your kidding yourself… not one year is good value on that contract (except maybe three/four from now?!?)

    WHAT WOULD YOUR ALMIGHT CAP NUMBER BE IF ALL 5 YEARS WERE AT REASONABLE VALUE… THATS MY POINT…

    Do you get that!!!

    BTW, I loved this line Matt

    "But our owner is Batman"

  45. Coach pb9617 says:

    Horcoff is one of the best in the league.

    Less noise, more signal please!

  46. quain says:

    Just think if we had given him $28M in the first year and then $1M in each of the last five years! What a goddamn overpay that would've been!!!

  47. bookie says:

    Oh FUCK OFF Bookie…

    No, but thank you for the suggestion, perhaps when I am done with some other things on my to-do list, I will consider it.

    Jeez… c'mon… im just saying the argument is flawed and horcoff will never out-perform a single year of his albatross shit-eatting contract..

    That is not what you said, and that is a very different and valid argument (though I disagree with it, it is based upon a defendable position).

    You actually implied that that the average value was less important than the specific annual value. This is not true unless your name is Daryl Katz and your concern is your wallet.

    If you can explain why the $7 million is relevant that would be helpful. Maybe there is some logic that escapes the rest of us.

  48. Rube Foster says:

    Horcoff needs Quinn as his PR Man. Once Quinn starts throwing out Dave Keon comps all of this will go away.

    “Horc bust heads just like my old teammate Davie Keon used to, but we old Leafs have our ways. As a matter fact Horc reminds me a lot of Davie Keon, you see Davie used to tie an onion to his belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on them. ‘Give me five bees for a quarter,’ you’d say. Now where were we? Oh yeah, the important thing was Davie used to wear an onion on his belt, which was the style at the time. Reminds me a lot of Horc. They didn’t have any white onions, because of the war; the only thing you can get was those big yellow ones.”

  49. Oilmaniac says:

    Yes coach, thats a good one,.. and an agreeable argument.. but my argument stands,.. "wouldn't it be better if".. and until we know how long the line of GMs would have been to offer this same generous good-soldier contract, then we cant definitely say he should have been offered less..

    In five years, at 4 mil (the bargin) will he be better than conroy of the present (at 1.nothing significant)

    ah whatever, this was old months n months ago.. i just try to make a simple point and some are to stalwartly committed to there own 'YOUR WRONG' to quit saying 'YOUR WRONG'.. so until the next time someone says 'Your Wrong'.. 'Your Wrong'

  50. Oilmaniac says:

    Oh I mean.. Im wrong, for going against the grain the horcoff contract boosting shrine..

    The argument was.. the cap hit (The relevant one, I know, fuck) would be better, if not every year of it was over valued (hence the 7, 6.5, 6.5 Mil for the next 3 of 5 years and comparison with conroy 4/5 years down the line when horc will still be making 5.5 (4 at the end, single year number which will probably still be too high – but closer than 5.5))

  51. quain says:

    Actually, once the NHL removes fighting from the game and adds Multi-Puck bonuses it will supplant the NFL as the American sport of choice, the salary cap will rise to an incredible $7.2B and Horcoff's contract will be miniscule versus that cap compared to Conroy's this year.

    Therefore, YOU IS WRONG.

    (Did I mention 0 on 0 scoring contests replacing the shootout? That's right, goaltenders trying to score on each other from opposite ends of the ice! Rick DiPietro will be a superstar and you will all regret mocking his contract.)

  52. Bar Qu says:

    Minor thing, but

    YOU ARE = YOU'RE

    YOURS(belonging to you) = YOUR

    Thus, YOUR WRONG actually means a wrong that you own, rather than an implication of incorrectness.

    Please, carry on the discussion of magical 'what ifs' and Shawn Horcoff.

  53. oilerdago says:

    Well now that Robbie Schremp is finally gone we'll at least be able to continue to have reasonable discussions about Horcoff's contract to keep us all going this winter.

    While it is a typical Lowe overpay, I'd argue that when you look at the real cap hit ($5.5 million) it's not as big an overpay.

    And Horcoff is as valuable to this team as anyone else for his ability to do things others on the roster can't right now – ahem, win a face off.

  54. Steve says:

    Oh I mean.. Im wrong, for going against the grain the horcoff contract boosting shrine..

    No, you're wrong for saying things that don't make sense.

    (Though the distribution of money across a contract does make *some* difference to fans, since it affects how easily it can be offloaded if the need arises. That said, I think even for that purpose the cap hit is probably more relevant.)

  55. Oilmaniac says:

    Bar Qu:

    wow, now that is a level of obliviousness that I will take on the chin.. I is WRONG :(

  56. Oilmaniac says:

    Its not a huge overpay now at 5.5..
    but look at every year of the contract.. oh goodness, i cant say the same thing again and again.. yippie great contract.. hbomb, whats the martini special at the next club meeting for thegoatethanmoreau.. gimmie two…

  57. Bruce says:

    Skill testing question: Next year Roberto Luongo gets a raise from $7.5 MM to $10 MM, and his cap hit drops from $6.75 MM to $5.33 MM. Should Canuck fans be complaining about his eight (!!) figure stipend?

  58. Kyle says:

    I think the vilifying of Conroy is probably unnecessary. I would think his comment was probably more directed as a compliment towards the bargain his good friend Iginla appears to be than a slight towards Horcoff.

    I mean, we can talk about how inaccurate the comment is, but I don't think many hockey players could be accused of having a super awesome grasp of the financial side of the game (to be polite).

  59. Bar Qu says:

    Excellent use of obliviousness.

    It applies to most things that I do.:)

  60. HBomb says:

    Funny, if you think about it, if the Oilers had tacked three years onto the end of the Horcoff deal at 1 million per season, it's suddenly 36 million over 9 years and a bargain cap hit of 4 million per season. However, they didn't set the standard and do that.

    Moral of the story – we're not as smart as the Red Wings.

  61. Steve says:

    The funny thing about Horcoff supports is they never address a single technical flaw in his game…….

    No kidding! Horcoff supporters and their stupid analysis of to what extent he helps the team win hockey games.

  62. danny says:

    Just think if we had given him $28M in the first year and then $1M in each of the last five years! What a goddamn overpay that would've been!!

    lol. awesome.

  63. Bill Needle says:

    Horcoff's gonna have to pick up his game if he's gonna be hockey's answer to Rodney Dangerfield. I mean, Dangerfield might be one of the top 10 standup comedians of all time – top 20 without a doubt – and Horcoff isn't one of the 10 best Oilers of all time and likely isn't the top 10 or 20 NHLers today.
    Horcoff's pretty good though, one of Edmonton's best today. But in comedian terms, he's probably a Paul Reiser or Steve Landesberg. Still, not bad.

  64. MattM says:

    Oilmaniac:

    Thanks.

    I think there's an argument to be made about whether or not Horcoff's contract is worthwhile. I tend to think it is, but I can see arguments to the contrary. The point is just that discussing the actual dollar number in any single year is somewhere between misleading and useless. I mean, if Horcoff is only worth 3 million at 36, the fact that that is his actual salary won't help us deal with his 5.5 million dollar cap hit.

    And sure, if he was paid less it would be better. But only insofar as his cap hit would be lower. So there's no point saying "I wish he was getting paid a reasonable dollar figure this year which then declined" as opposed to saying "I wish Shawn Horcoff's cap hit was a million bucks less over the same term". The former just allows you to make sensationalist statements like "7 MILLION DOLLARS OMG!!" and adds nothing of substance to the conversation.

  65. Woodguy says:

    and can't cover his shadow in his own zone.

    That remark is just willfully ignorant.

  66. Bruce says:

    OT but maybe not: Ryan Giggs scored his 150th goal for Manchester United today and his 25th in the Champions League, fantastic milestones for a man who has played the entirety of his professional career with ManU. After his second-half goal drew United level, Giggs then set up the winner with a clever drop pass, and even delivered a key defensive play at the final whsitle to preserve the 2-1 result.

    You don't need to follow soccer, just sports, to know that the roar of the Old Trafford faithful was just a little louder for the native son who has been a constant contributor for a remarkable 20 seasons, often playing in the shadow of peripatetic poster boys like David Beckham, Cristiano Ronaldo and many others.

    I'm not saying Horcoff = Giggs and certainly not that ManU = (2000s) Oilers, but the possibility of a significant Oiler playing his entire career here would be a welcome first. The greatest club teams in the world seem to find room for such players, and they're not always the biggest stars either.

    I was among many fans who were crushed the day Ryan Smyth left town; I thought he would be the first Oiler For Life. Lots of people raked Kevin Lowe for drawing that line in the sand just short of $5.5 MM, leading to the messy departure of Cryin' Ryan. Yet when Lowe went the extra mile (or should I say, the extra $100,000) and signed Horcoff to a similar deal to the one Smyth wouldn't sign, it seems he gets raked by many of the same people. I don't quite get it, to me they are both pretty equivalent players, local boys made good who bust their ass and find all sorts of ways to help their team. Better or worse, the guy we kept was Horcoff; it pains me no end to see and hear some of the grief a segment of "Oiler fans" are laying on him.

  67. MattM says:

    Cory:
    Well, what do you want us to do? When you say He is not a puck possession player and can't cover his shadow in his own zone. am I just suppose to say "YOU'RE WRONG", and that would count as addressing it? I think you are wrong, but where would that get us? I would be pretty surprised if I could convince you of anything that way. Likewise, I'm not going to be convinced by you throwing out individual occurances of him blowing his coverage. That stuff happens to everybody.

    I guess we could sit down together for 20 hours and just watch tape on Horcoff, discuss every play he makes and attempt to reach consensus. But that seems like a lot of effort. Which is why around here we use math. Math can be misleading, but is never strictly wrong. It allows us to develop a common objective language for doing exactly what you are suggesting, addressing how good a player actually is. We don't have anything that's very good at indicating how a player is doing something, but for the results-oriented there are a number of useful tools available. On-ice GA/60, Corsi, Zoneshift are all parts of an objective picture to define whether your statements abou Horc's puck possession and defensive abilities are true. By every metric we have, they are not.

    Now, I doubt this is convincing for you either. You could argue GA/60 is impacted by luck and teammates, Corsi is a bad proxy for puck control because different teams have different shooting philosophies, Zoneshift is more a reflection of excellent breakout work by the dmen, that kind of stuff. All sorts of ways to tell me that those numbers don't mean what I think they mean. But at least it's a productive discussion. And yeah, like the tape review that's a lot of work. But unlike the tape review, once we get it right we can apply it to every player so we don't have to do this 660 times a year.

  68. Steve says:

    And "sawing off" when you have a -3.03 PP/PK/GFON/GAON/60 doesn't do much good.

    For every 20 minutes Horcoff was played on the special teams last year the team was down 1-0.

    Of course the mathletes never mention that.. that would involve some objectivity.

    And you'll never see them mention how many neutral zone draws Horc took when they bring up his 0/D split.

    Note to Horcoff detractors other than Traktor: the above the correct way of arguing your case: it entails bringing up counter-evidence. I'm actually pretty agnostic on whether Horcoff is worth his contract, but watching each side make its argument, there's little doubt in my mind with which crowd I'd rather be associated.

  69. MattM says:

    Traktor:

    Out of curiosity: How much were the Oilers down per 20 minutes on special teams generally? How about Horc's special teams GD on/off ice? Clearly, the number you posted sucks. But it lacks context. Does Horcoff suck at those things, or was he getting pulled down by the general black hole that was the 08/09 Oilers' special teams?

    That's not rhetorical. I'd legitimately like to see that number.

  70. bookie says:

    Okay I have been an Oilers fan for 20 years so I have watched a few of our first line centers play….

    My couch has watched the Oilers play for 20 years as well, but it doesn't mean it knows anything about hockey. Given that it is an inanimate object though, it does not have the ability to make statements like Horcoff is possibly the worst first line center we have ever had! and prove it's ignorance of the game.

  71. quain says:

    Traktor is being willfully ignorant about this. It's just disgusting. The correct number is much closer to 3.70… he completely ignores the fact that Horcoff wasn't on the ice for a shortie for, but was on for a couple against. What a dummy.

    In seriousness, even relative to his teammates he does not have good penalty killing numbers last year. There was clearly something systemic with the penalty kill last year and hopefully it gets fixed, but I also hope his numbers drop individually as well.

  72. spOILer says:

    Bruce said;

    You don't need to follow soccer, just sports, to know that the roar of the Old Trafford faithful was just a little louder for the native son who has been a constant contributor for a remarkable 20 seasons, often playing in the shadow of peripatetic poster boys like David Beckham, Cristiano Ronaldo and many others.

    Sorry to threadjack, Bruce, but want did you mean by "native son"?

    Did they move Old Trafford to Wales while I wasn't looking?

    Stupid East Lancs Road. Should've shut that down when they opened bloody motorway so people can notice these kinds of things.

  73. spOILer says:

    Sorry, *what* did you mean.

    *Curses laptop keyboard for the three thousandth time today.

    Remember way way back when we were in school and typing wasn't cool? Yeah. Who's laughin now.

  74. Smarmy Boss says:

    To play Devil's advocate. Not many centers make the kind of money Horcoff is making and are that offensively inept.

    I like Horcoff. Always have. I'm curious what sort of contract he would have gotten on the open market?

    I do agree the Oil should have tacked on a few extra years at one mil apiece. Nobody would complain about the contract then.

  75. rickibear says:

    For every 20 minutes Horcoff was played on the special teams last year the team was down 1-0.

    You need to compare him to the league average. Then give it game context. We Know his pk numbers from last year were not great for him.

    Vs. the league average:
    horcoff gave up an 8 extra goals for the year, At even strength he outscored the leagues best by ten goals for the year. On the pp he contributed 2 less goals than the league average.

  76. quain says:

    I like Horcoff. Always have. I'm curious what sort of contract he would have gotten on the open market?

    Scott Gomez and Chris Drury seem like reasonably fair comparables. Drury is a tad better offensively (30 & 37 goal years in Buffalo, but low 20's otherwise) and Gomez is an overall worse player than both, from a cursory glance. Both got paid more than Horcoff makes.

    Briere and Horcoff aren't comparable, but I'd have a hard time believing anyone who said Briere is a better player.

    Can't think of any other UFA centers in the same weight class who signed recently. Was Ribiero traded or was that FA? Either way, he's making $5M and falls in the same Briere camp.

  77. CrazyCoach says:

    (Did I mention 0 on 0 scoring contests replacing the shootout? That's right, goaltenders trying to score on each other from opposite ends of the ice! Rick DiPietro will be a superstar and you will all regret mocking his contract.)

    If there is ever a guy I want as my agent, Quain, you are it.

  78. Ryan Walsh says:

    Lowetide, Ryan Walsh from Prime Time Sports with Bob McCown. I have a request that might interest you. If you have a chance, please e-mail me at rynoradio@hotmail.com

    Thanks a lot!

  79. FlamingPavelBure says:

    Sergei Kostitsyn just officialy asked for a trade.

    Go check out his stats.

    Him vs Robert Nilsson should probably work out.

    If you'r not too much into stalking personal life, he should be a fine fine 2nd linesman.

  80. raventalon40 says:

    This is probably why hockey players have agents, because for every scholastic player you get like Shawn Horcoff, you get a Craig Conroy.

    Not to suggest that hockey players don't know how to do math, but not all players are created equal.

    And Craig Conroy in his current position can't even touch Horcoff.

    Difference between a hockey fan and a hockey villager is how you perceive Horcoff: whether you praise him for what he does do or you berate him for what he doesn't do.

    And the second group usually seems to be the one to give the vaguest and least justifiable of reasoning.

  81. raventalon40 says:

    Didn't Sergei K play with one of Gagner or Schremp while with the London Knights? Sergei could always join Gagner on the Oilers 4th line or go join Robbie on the Island. lol

  82. FlamingPavelBure says:

    Patrick Kane 58 62 83 145
    Sergei Kostitsyn 59 40 91 131
    Sam Gagner 53 35 83 118

    Arguably the most lethal junior line ever.

    Sergei's Vision is comparable to Hemsky's.

  83. Bruce says:

    Sorry to threadjack, Bruce, but want did you mean by "native son"?

    spOILer: It's not threadjacking when you're responding to a previous post. From Wikipedia:

    Ryan Joseph Wilson was born at St David's Hospital in Canton, Cardiff, Wales, to Danny Wilson, a rugby union player for Cardiff RFC, and Lynne Giggs (now Lynne Johnson). … In 1980, when Giggs was six years old, his father switched rugby codes and signed for Swinton RLFC, forcing the whole family to move north to Manchester. The move was a traumatic one, as Giggs was very close to his grandparents in Cardiff, but he would often return there with his family at weekends or on school holidays. Giggs is mixed race — his paternal grandfather is from Sierra Leone — and has spoken of the racism he faced as a child.

    The entry goes on to detail how Giggs played all his youth soccer in Manchester, was scouted as a youth by Sir Alex Ferguson, and was stolen from the list of ManCity when Ferguson signed him to a youth contract on his 14th birthday. To me that's a native son, I guess some might view it differently.

  84. NBOilerFan says:

    I can just see Lowetide now… leaning back in his lazy boy, sipping on champagne and laughing to his hearts content at he stays away from the computer knowing full well what kind of a hornets nest he'd stirred up with a Horcoff salary thread just days before the season opener.

  85. Bruce says:

    For every 20 minutes Horcoff was played on the special teams last year the team was down 1-0.

    YOU ARE INCORRECT (or something like that). For every 20 minutes Horcoff was played on each special team (in other words, 40 minutes, 20 on the PP and 20 on the PK), the team was down 3-2.

    So the differential of special teams badness is half as bad as you suggest, and the ratio of badness is still bad, but it's not infinity.

  86. spOILer says:

    Bruce said:
    To me that's a native son, I guess some might view it differently.

    Those of us who wonder why he plays for Wales do.

    Hehe.

    Sorry, Bruce, to poke at your post, but this native son business is long-standing issue of debate and a sore spot around those parts for a very long time, so I thought there should be a dissenting voice here too.

    For the record, as much as I hate Eff U Man U, Giggs has been my favorite Red Devil fer years.

    Just wish he had chosen to be a native of Manchester, and played for England. (and of course there were likely many reasons behind his choice besides where he felt allegiance).

  87. bookie says:

    Lowetide, Ryan Walsh from Prime Time Sports with Bob McCown. I have a request that might interest you.

    Don't do it man, don't leave us, we will be better. Seriously, we were just being jerks cause we didn't think you had better options. We love Horcoff, he is worth every penny. We all know the team is unbalanced and that a trade should be made. And we were just screwing around with the Shremp love… we all knew he kinda sucked….

  88. Racki says:

    Ouch… I can't say I disagree with Conroy, but pretty disrespectful to make a comment like that about a gentlemanly player like Horcoff.

  89. FlamingPavelBure says:

    Can understand attacking someone who makes deragotory comments but seriously… what the fuck?

    After seeing that video of Horcoff with a day off with his family doing luge with his kids in Edmonton, i'm asking, how could you hate the man?

  90. Oilmaniac says:

    "I can just see Lowetide now… leaning back in his lazy boy, sipping on champagne and laughing to his hearts content at he stays away from the computer knowing full well what kind of a hornets nest he'd stirred up with a Horcoff salary thread just days before the season opener."
    -NBOF

    haha…

    Then,
    "Don't do it man, don't leave us, we will be better."
    -bookie

    Its true LT, the argumentative spirit was simply bubbling.. im sorry bookie (in a sheepish tone).. i promise to be better too.. and give mr.complete w compete his respect..

    hehe

  91. Dennis says:

    McCown is certainly an acquired taste so I don't know how Lain would fare.

    As for the 10 bashing, I don't even bother to defend him anymore because it's just a legion of people who don't want to pay attention to the numbers.

  92. Hoos says:

    I think we've totally missed the motivation for Conroy's comment. He just isn't a true hockey fan.

    In all seriousness, I believe his comments to be nothing more than a potshot because of the Paul Kelly dissmisal saga. We'll see more of these shots at guys this season.

  93. Ducey says:

    "Reddox cleared. It's interesting that Schremp was taken from waivers and Reddox was not, because Reddox is a better player with wider skills and is cheap as cheap can be for the NHL roster."

    Liam Reddox has to start playing Robbie Schremp hockey.

  94. Bruce says:

    Just wish he had chosen to be a native of Manchester, and played for England. (and of course there were likely many reasons behind his choice besides where he felt allegiance).

    spOILer: This is explained in the already-referenced Wikipedia article (of course, who knows if it's accurate):

    Giggs represented England at Schoolboy level (using the name Ryan Wilson) playing at Wembley Stadium against Germany in 1989. Ryan changed his surname at the age of 16, two years after his parents' separation, so that "the world would know he was his mother's son."[6] Lawrie McMenemy, then coach of the England under-21 team, checked to see whether Giggs was eligible to play for England but discovered that Giggs had no English grandparents, and was therefore only eligible to play for Wales.

  95. spOILer says:

    Bruce…

    Art. 15 Par. 1 of the Regulations
    Governing the Application of the FIFA Statutes stipulates that "any person holding the nationality of a country is eligible to play for that country's national team."

    I believe there's also a two year residency requirement, and a requirement that citizenship be permanent, not temporary.
    Now the rules for U-21 may be different, I don't know. And this debate across the pond started long before Wikipedia ever existed, so the fans over there that I know may not be aware of that historical quirk. But their understanding was that Giggs chose Wales for the Senior team. There was quite an uproar at the time, and they're all about our age, so were witness to it.

    And maybe that choice was because of a perceived slight given by the U-21 team, I don't know.

    Judging by the Wiki article you provided, it's pretty evident Giggs feels a lot of loyalty towards Wales. And, if the article is correct and the NTSC didn't feel Giggs was native enough to play for the U21 squad, then I guess this debate over whether Giggs is a native son of Manchester is pretty legitimate.

    And of course, United would promote him to their fans as being a native player. They'd be crazy not to.

  96. Bruce says:

    spOILer: I'm too far removed from the Premiership to know how ManU promotes Giggs, but as a made-in-Manchester product seems likely. He played his youth soccer there and his entire pro career there. The fact he wasn't born there complicates things for sure. The term "native son" was my own choice, and as I said a ways up the page, some might interpret Giggs' situation differently.

Leave a Reply

Want to join the discussion?
Feel free to contribute!

Leave a Reply

© Copyright - Lowetide.ca