Blackhawks at Oilers, G23, 09-10

This is Gilles Marotte. He was part of the famous “Esposito, Hodge, Stanfield to Boston” trade in 1967, a deal that changed the fortunes of the spoked B forever.

There are two things of note about Marotte: The Bruins traded him despite the fact that he’d had success paired with Bobby Orr. Harry Sinden felt that (despite being a punishing hitter) Marotte didn’t have the aptitude to play the defensive game and he also grew tired of hits that took the young blue out of position. His assessment proved true, as Marotte became a journeyman player while minor leaguer Dallas Smith capably filled in on the Orr pairing.

I posted this card because it points out a piece of Blackhawk trivia even old-timey fans may not know: the team name changed years ago.

If you read old articles right through the 70s, the “Chicago Black Hawks” is clearly the name of the team. The original nickname came from the team’s first owner, a World War 1 veteran who fought in the 333rd or “Blackhawk” machine gun Battalion of the 86th Infantry division during the “war to end all wars.”

They were named after Chief Black Hawk, who was a prominent individual in Illinois state history. The team’s name was often spelled both ways, but in my childhood the spelling on the card above was the most prevalent and certainly history books have the “Chicago Black Hawks” winning the Stanley in 1961. My guess is the name changed in the 1980′s.

I’m getting the feeling that what we are seeing this season is a year long evaluation by the current coaching staff. Yesterday’s news cycle surrounded comments from Tom Renney (on-ice) and Pat Quinn (off-ice) about Ales Hemsky’s practice habits. This is the sort of thing that sometimes happens with losing teams, with the coaching staff attempting to change culture. Will it work? Hell if I know. I don’t recall ever reading anything about Hemsky’s leadership abilities and can give you a long list of great players with simply awful practice habits but it is also true that some of the game’s greatest coaches were absolute grumps when a practice wasn’t going well.

I believe Pat Quinn will be the General Manager of the Edmonton Oilers in due time. I believe that this season will end badly for Steve Tambellini. I believe Kevin Lowe is still in charge and I believe Daryl Katz is a long way from being the kind of owner he’d like to be and we pray for every night. Which is fine, but instead of being frustrated about missing the playoffs in 2007, 2008 and 2009 and 2010 I think it might be more beneficial to talk about “the kids” and “development.”

This edition of the Edmonton Oilers remains more about development than winning. We’ll know things have changed when the massive weaknesses of this roster (one of which Pat Quinn pointed out wonderfully in his defense of Tom Gilbert–the centers not named Horcoff don’t know what the hell they’re doing) are addressed with veteran replacements.

We wait.

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315 Responses to "Blackhawks at Oilers, G23, 09-10"

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  1. Baroque says:

    I wish I knew an Oilers fan close by – I'd give him a big hug. :(

  2. CrazyCoach says:

    Good post LT,

    Can't sleep here due to a bad cold.

    If Quinn becomes GM, I just hope that he has the smarts to keep that Olyzk (sp?) guy around to deal with the cap.

    I was excited about this team early on, but they just don't look like a team that is ready for the bigtime yet. Too many holes and those holes are not being filled.

    Quinn, Renney, and Fleming has brought some professionalism and credibility behind the bench. Not sure if Tambo has brought that to the GM position as of yet.

  3. DBO says:

    Well i thought the 20 game mark woudl be the point where Quinn went to tambellini and asked for certain things. Great point on the Quinn comments about our centers. Let's hope it actually happens.

    Guys I'd like to see
    Paul Gaustad – Buffalo ($2.3 cap till 2011/12)
    Greg Campbell – Florida ($.761 – RFA next year)
    David Steckel – Was ($.725 – UFA next year)
    Matt Cullen – Car ($2.85 cap – UFA next year)
    RJ Umberger – CLB ($3.750 cap hit till 11/12)

    gaustad would be my first choice as he is what we are missing. A big physical center with grit and can win a faceoff and play in our end.

  4. Woodguy says:

    Another development year tight to the cap and missing the playoffs, yay!

    I'd lay 2-1 that Tambellini is GM of this team July 1, 2010.

    He did well getting 3 years of 19 for 20 games of Cole.

    He got the trade he wanted in the summer, it died beyond his control.

    He signed a STANLEY CUP WINNING goaltender, and they all seem pretty proud of that fact.

    He hasn't been able to trade from his position of strength (defense) due to injuries this year.

    I think we'll see a shutdown C when 4C is no longer occupied by 13.

    13 has already been part of a package for a higher end player, no reason to think he's not trying for that again.

    Its way to early in his tenure to expect Lowe to fire his own hire.

    Lowe knows the shitty contract situation is his doing, he'll have patience to allow it to be fixed.

    Actually I'd lay 3-1 that Tambellini is GM July 1, 2010

  5. Rob Gilgan says:

    Actually I'd lay 3-1 that Tambellini is GM July 1, 2010

    Side bets allowed?

  6. Bruce says:

    I too grew up with the Black Hawks. I would have guessed the name "change" occurred more recently than the 80s, but this from the always-reliable Wikipedia supports your best guess:

    For many years, the name was spelled "Black Hawks." This ambiguity was finally settled in the summer of 1986 when the club officially decided on the one-word version based on the spelling found in the original franchise documents.

  7. rickibear says:

    Actually I'd lay 3-1 that Tambellini is GM July 1, 2010

    JesH Woodguy: Most of us have these thought hit us day to day. You allways lay it out in full though sequence.

    Yiou allways give us these beauties

    Your one of why I read here.

  8. bookie says:

    Looks like we are on an emotional downswing again…

    I am glad that Renney yelled at Hemsky. Its good coaching. This team has some terrible habits and it might take some coaching drama to break it. The reality is that some of the guys who got free rides over the past number of years are having to face new coaches now. I don't think any of us realized that the problem 'vetrans' in the room were guys like Hemksy and Horcoff, but that could be the case.

    As per the success/failure of the team (and firing Tambi and hiring Quinn as GM), there has to be some recognition that the team has been injured and ill for much of this season. The Oilers would likely have 2-3 more wins if they they had an average injury rate and I suspect there would be a little less doom and gloom to go around.

  9. Woodguy says:

    After making a good defensive team like the Flames look like AHL'ers in the 2nd period the other day, I do not have high hopes for this game.

    A good friend is in from Regina so he's coming to the game with me tonight.

    I think we are going to test Ender's theory of more beer.

    Go Oilers!!

  10. Woodguy says:


    If we can find a solid 3rd party to escrow, I'm down.

  11. Clarkenstein says:

    Tambeltooni is trying to win an ass kicking contest on one leg. Where did that other leg go? Kevin Lowe chopped it off of course! Tonight's game could be an ass-kicking of monumental proportions… to quote Rod. One can only hope the young Hawks got shit faced drunk last night and are still in the sack with some of E-towns finest skanks. But… I doubt it.

  12. Gret99zky says:

    Even # days: There's a trade coming. Book it.

    Odd # days: Standing pat.

  13. bookie says:

    On another note is any one else TOTALLY pissed off that the Oilers have added commercials to their on-line video feeds (the interviews, etc.).

    It just seems overly cheap and I actually think its stupid of them as it reminds visitors to the site that they are dealing with a business. It removes the facade that these are YOUR Edmonton Oilers and reminds us that really we are dealing with a group that is one step away from infomercials.

  14. bookie says:

    I am glad that Renney yelled at Hemsky. Its good coaching.

    I should note that I am glad that its being done if needed, I am not glad to see that Hemsky is one of the guys that needs a yelling at…

  15. knighttown says:

    There is nothing about tonight's game that predicts anything less than sodomy at the hands of the Blackcocks. If I was to list the NHL teams from top to bottom in order of who is most likely to run us out of the rink, these fellas would be at the top of the list.

    Their only (slight) weakness is handling an aggressive forecheck and goaltending. Our forecheck blows and we get outshot every night.

    My optimistic hope for tonight is no injuries!

  16. Woodguy says:

    . I don't think any of us realized that the problem 'vetrans' in the room were guys like Hemksy and Horcoff, but that could be the case.

    That sound you just heard was L.T.'S head exploding.

    10 has always been a consummate pro by all accounts.

    You always heard that MacT wanted 83 to take a more active leadership role, but I really don't think you can thrust leadership on anyone.

    Getting him to practice harder is another thing all together, and one things you always hear about the Wings is how hard EVERYONE practices.

  17. Woodguy says:

    Rickibear -thanks…. I am the least among many who are worlds better though….

  18. bookie says:

    That sound you just heard was L.T.'S head exploding.

    Ok, I have to admit, I threw that in there just to see what happened… I agree that Horcoff is a solid player and should probably be Captin on this team if Souray were not here.

  19. Lowetide says:

    I've long since given up attempting to defend Horcoff to people. I think he's been exceptional and others think he's terrible, or at the least the worst contract on the planet.

    So, we agree to disagree. If you believe Horcoff is a bad example, or a poor team player, go with God.

  20. bookie says:

    LT-Horcoff is one area where we agree totally.

    I didn't really mean to throw him in with Hemmer this morning in terms of leadership (I blame early morning pre-coffee brain)- I was mostly looking to identify guys other than Moreau and Staois who have taken a lot of hits due to their leadership.

  21. Lowetide says:

    bookie: I think the problem for this team is that there's no real connection to the Stanley team. Hemsky was gold during the run and Horcoff was a big part of that team as well. Anyone who saw Horcoff block that shot with his face in DET spring '06 would never question his heart, problem being most of the men on his side that day are in other towns now.

  22. Psyche says:

    Flames fans not happy with Olli's performance:

    "Olli trade looking like a Jok?"

  23. boopronger says:

    Was Quinn the GM and coach of the Leaves when they continually traded away draft picks for washed up players that just barely got them into eighth? if so, hes perfect for the Oilers!

    Kidding, but can someone with more knowledge then myself explain what kind of job Quinn did with the maple leafs?

  24. Lowetide says:

    Quinn was GM from summer 1999 to summer 2003.

    Under his watch they drafted Brad Boyes, Kyle Wellwood, Carlo Colaiacovo, Alex Steen, Matt Stajan, Ian White.

    They dealt Boyes the spring before he resigned as GM, and Jason Smith was dealt I believe just before he became GM. However, I'm not completely familiar with how much input he would have had in that deal even if he wasn't GM at the time (he was the coach).

  25. Hawerchuk says:

    Bruce beat me to it, but you can see that Chicago changed names between 1985-86 and 1986-87:

  26. knighttown says:

    Guys I'd like to see
    Paul Gaustad – Buffalo ($2.3 cap till 2011/12)
    Greg Campbell – Florida ($.761 – RFA next year)
    David Steckel – Was ($.725 – UFA next year)
    Matt Cullen – Car ($2.85 cap – UFA next year)
    RJ Umberger – CLB ($3.750 cap hit till 11/12)


    I'm not picking on you cause this is a good list of guys that would help this team but isn't it becoming clear that "hockey" trades simply do not happen until the deadline. Let's look at it this way; no one has ever accused Brian Burke of inactivity yet here he sits with a team in last place in the NHL and NO first round draft pick. Yet he has not made a trade since the season started. You don't think that guy is trying?

    Carolina? Same thing in a market that really can't afford to be out of the race in December.

    Here is a list of the trades since the season started that are not simply salary dumps:

    Chicago trades Aaron Johnson to Calgary for Kyle Greentree.

    Atlanta trades Jordan Lavalee-Smotherman to Columbus for futures.

    Columbus trades Stefan Legein to Philly for Michael Ratchuck.

    Boston trades a 3rd and a 4th to Buffalo for Dan Paille.

    There has not been a single trade in the NHL since November 1st.

    So the trades that are there are salary dumps like Kessel and Kobasew out of Boston. We agree that we cannot receive a salary dump at the moment because of our proximity to the cap? That would mean we'd have to dump a salary (rare) in order to allow us to look at "receiving" a salary dump. Does anyone really think that we are days away from moving Ethan Moreau for a 3rd rounder?

    We are in no position to take on a salary dump so the Chicago purge will likely result in someone going to Atlanta or Carolina or Columbus.

    IF we start to see us move Moreau, Staois and Nilsson for picks than we MIGHT be able to take on salary. I don't see that happening since any of those deals takes us further from a 2010 playoff spot. Even if we do move some of these guys we bank that cap space for the off season.

    There is one way teams are changing personnel before the deadline and that is by scouring the waiver wire. We might see a transaction like this:

    Adam Mair-recalled by Buffalo-claimed by Edmonton (half salary)

    Robert Nilsson-waived by Edmonton.

    LT and others can complain about our GM's lack of movement and in the summer, they'd have every right to. Right now, dreaming about acquiring David Steckel or Paul Gaustad is like arguing over whether you'd buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini if your won the Super 7.

    Blast Tambellini all you want for coming into the season ill-prepared but if you felt this team was contructed reasonably well on October 1st it is naive and unfair to complain about his lack of movement since.

    Ladies and Gents, the elmination of trades is yet another gift of the Bettman Dynasty.

  27. Art Vandelay says:

    Many old-timey Chicago hockey fans would prefer to forget the post-1954 era, when the team was named in honour of it's long-timey owner.

    The Chicago Miserable Cheap C#nt Hawks were renamed the Blackhawks at the beginning of the 07-08 season.

  28. Dennis says:

    I believe the Oilers D and netminding is good enough to get them into the playoffs but once we get to the whole 10 situation, then we can talk where we have fallen down a little.

    I have always said that 10 starts to look a lot better to the layman once 89 matures to the point of exploiting the softer min assignment that a guy like Horc provides him.

    It's a lot easier to point out 10's contract when the club isn't in the top eight and if 89 could do more with secondary tough min, then the club would be better and, voila, 10 isn't as "easy" a target.

    We really don't know what we have because of all the injuries that have befallen us but, yet, because we chose not to plus certain easily indentifible holes, it looks like our success was predicated on the maturation of kids like 13-89 and 12 can be thrown in there as well.

    So, if we assume that even with 37 out for a long haul that the netminding and D are good enough to compete, then where are the problems?

    1. 89 can't handle secondary tough min to the point that we need him to.

    2. 12 purchased a house in the abyss and he doesn't even come out to get the mail anymore.

    3. 13 rent's 12's downstairs basement.

    4. top nine vets like the 18-34 combo could very well be done and their collective nuisance worsens when you consider they are big cap-eaters.

    5. the PK's terrible again and 34 in particular was always a big part of it's old success.

  29. Black Dog says:

    LT – Quinn's pressers are terrific, no?

    I was early in on the idea of Quinn as GM and I think that it is a strong possibility if this team misses the playoffs. Since day one he has been very clear about the weaknesses of this team. If it comes down to a power struggle between he and Tambellini I put my money on Quinn.

    The Hawks are terrific, they absolutely crushed Calgary, all this without Bolland, Hossa and Burish.

    The Hawks benefitted from the high picks in their rebuild, sure, but note tonight how they have support players, either kids who can play different roles or vets that they have brought in – Eager, Madden, Ladd.

    They are a lot of fun to watch and certainly one of the premier contenders this winter. Tonight could be awful.

  30. Dennis says:

    Just a couple of other thing.

    1. I'm not even sure if Quinn was working with the Leaves when Gator was dealt; Smith was the GM and Murphy was the coach.

    2. For the guy who cited bargains he'd like to pick up, you don't usually trade for NHL-established bargains, you either find them on the wire or via minor league FA or from picking them up from another club's minor league team.

    Not all teams let guys like Hejda and Glencross walk away; in fact, most teams would never let that happen.

  31. Lowetide says:

    Quinn was named Toronto HC on June 26, 1998 and Jason Smith was traded March 23, 1999.

    He was named GM on July 14, 1999. So I don't know how much input he had, but he wasn't the GM when the deal was made.

  32. Bling says:


    nice point regarding the dearth of trade activity league-wide so far this year.

    I think the Leafs and Oilers are in different situations, though. You'd have to think that if Tambo was dangling Gilbert or — prior to his injury — Denis Grebeshkov, there would be some interest.

  33. Lowetide says:

    Last November, the Flyers picked up Matt Carle, Dallas and Pittsburgh made a deal (Sydor-Boucher) and the Leafs sent away Colaiacovo and Steen for Stempniak.

    So trades can be made. And a team like the Oilers–with a massive hole–might have to overpay. So be it.

  34. SK Oiler Fan says:

    Agreed on everything you said except Moreau and Nilsson getting this team closer to the playoffs. Moreau and Nilsson are not helping this team win right now.

    The waiver wire is the easiest way to make trades before the deadline.
    It's the only way portions of salaries can be paid by two teams(Re-entry). It's just like a three way deal as you said:
    Nilsson claimed by NYI on reentry waivers.
    Mair claimed on reentry by the Oilers

    There. You just traded Nilsson for Mair. Buffalo makes a player happy and gains 400k in space, Oilers gain about 600k in space and add a useful piece, Islanders get a young, offensive forward for 1M. Not saying those are the exact names and teams, but you get the idea.

    As soon as this team is reasonably healthy Moreau, Staois, Nilsson, maybe even Patio L. (due to salary) are prime candidates for the waiver wire. This team needs cap flexibility now so if a useful piece does become available they can at least fit them under the cap.

  35. SK Oiler Fan says:

    A team like Chicago heavy in Western Canadian boys always seems to have good games in Alberta.

    Call it the "show off" effect. Lots of family and friends to put on a good show for.

  36. Woodguy says:

    Fact: The Oilers need a good 3C

    Fact: The Oilers have 10,89,67,13 playing C, and 19/91 can play it in a pinch

    They will not bring in a C until the spot is available, that means 13 or 67 is gone. 13 been gone once already.

    I actually think there was a second part to the Heatly trade process, which included getting 3C because then the spot would be open.

    I think 13 and a 33/77 will be traded at some point for either 1/2LW or 2RW and then 3C will be filled.

    They may even trade 13+37/77 for 2C if Quinn gets his way, but I doubt it, management likes 89 too much to put someone else in front of him.

    Until then we wring our hands shake our fists in the direction of Rexall.

  37. Bar Qu says:

    I found the news item about yelling at Hemsky for poor practises interesting only for the old saying it raised in my head. There's no sense trying to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and makes the pig mad.

    If Hemsky has always been a poor practise guy (Brownlee says as much) then getting on him for poor practises makes little sense to me. Other than trying to show everybody else an example, I guess.

  38. Lowetide says:

    One day when we have time I'll post something on Lafleur and the things that happened when Lemaire became coach.

    Here's an example of the reaction: The surprise was that Lemaire, an offensively talented player and a defensive genius as a coach, could be so petty as to attempt to get even with Lafleur for nothing at all except that Lafleur was the transcendent superstar, while Lemaire was merely a very good centre of Lafleur's line.

    This was in reaction to Lemaire drastically cutting back Lafleur's playing time.

  39. godot10 says:

    //On another note is any one else TOTALLY pissed off that the Oilers have added commercials to their on-line video feeds (the interviews, etc.). //

    It is going to cost $7 million dollars to bury Moreau, Staios, and Nilsson next year.

  40. Woodguy says:

    Geez, I even forgot the 78 was penciled in as a C before he got his "pubis thing"

    Lots of bodies.


    If Hemsky needs to be taught to practice like a pro, then he needs to be taught to practice like a pro. He could score 2ppg and if he had shitty practice habits, he should still be taught better ones.

    Thing is, 1ppg+ guys rarely have shitty practice habits….

  41. jon k says:

    DBO: The only guys available on that list are Cullen and Umberger. Both would probably help but we'd also have to move some salary and value back. Gaustad and Steckel are not available precisely because of their value to teams.

    If we're on the subject of youth and development, at what point do we become concerned that Cogliano and Gagner were rushed?

    They've shown some appreciable improvement in defensive play and the underlying numbers to support that, but neither has taken the big step forward necessary to become impact NHL regulars.

    Hemsky had his breakout year as a 4th year pro, so there's still reason to believe it's going to happen, but it's still worrisome at this point.

  42. godot10 says:

    If Hemsky is loafing in practice, he isn't setting a good example for Gagner, Cogliano, Nilsson and the rest of the young Oilers. It means he isn't taking a team leadership role. It means he feels a sense of entitlement.

  43. Lowetide says:

    I don't think we need to fret too much about Gagner. He may not be Doug Weight but there's a fine player there and sometimes you get a quality player and he turns into Von Hayes and that's a helluva player too.

    Cogliano was 20 when he arrived, so I don't know what to say about him. Some guys have three years experience and some guys have one year of experience three times.

    He might be that guy. I'm still on his side, though.

  44. godot10 says:

    I don't think Quinn wants to be GM. I think he enjoys coaching more.

    Because Quinn and Tambellini go way back, Quinn will have a lot of input into the personnel decisions

    What about Matt Stajan?

    Cogliano and Nilsson for Stajan. i.e. Cogliano and one of the bad contracts.

  45. Bar Qu says:

    Woodguy, I wasn't saying Hemsky shouldn't be expected to practise hard, rather that he never has, so what is going to change now? Yeah, hold his feet to the fire, but you better hope he doesn't simply get in a snit about it.

    Geez, that sounds a lot like I'm calling him entitled, which I'm not. More like, let's not create a new PDP whipping boy out of the best offensive weapons on the team.

  46. knighttown says:

    "If I can't practice, I can't practice. It is as simple as that. It ain't about that at all. It's easy to sum it up if you're just talking about practice. We're sitting here, and I'm supposed to be the franchise player, and we're talking about practice. I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about practice, not a game, not a game, not a game, but we're talking about practice. Not the game that I go out there and die for and play every game last it's my last but we're talking about practice man. How silly is that?

    Now I know that I'm supposed to lead by example and all that but I'm not shoving that aside like it don't mean anything. I know it's important, I honestly do but we're talking about practice. We're talking about practice man. We're talking about practice. We're talking about practice. We're not talking about the game. We're talking about practice. When you come to the arena, and you see me play, you've seen me play right, you've seen me give everything I've got, but we're talking about practice right now.

  47. knighttown says:

    Cogliano was 20 when he arrived, so I don't know what to say about him. Some guys have three years experience and some guys have one year of experience three times.

    That's simply a great line.

  48. Black Dog says:

    godot – Stajan wouldn't cost that much, he's a UFA this summer and he's a tweener

    Had a decent season last year but overall he's just meh. Doesn't do anything particularly well, imo.

    I'll keep stumping for Ponikorovsky though. Apparently the Leafs are going to try and extend him but he's a guy who would look good in the Oilers' top six, either as a shortterm fix or longer term.

  49. Bruce says:

    Not all teams let guys like Hejda and Glencross walk away; in fact, most teams would never let that happen.

    My bet is that if you took a close look at roster movement on virtually any team over a series of summers you'd find a guy or three who management/fans regret letting walk as a free agent.

    In Calgary they're still crying over Marty St.Louis for goodness sake. Due respect to Hejda and GlenX, in hindsight that was a lot bigger mistake.

    And it's that same hindsight that allows us to see Hejda put up a couple of +20 seasons in CBJ and imagine what might have been. Well, Darcy Regehr traded him for a 7th round draft pick. And the peerless Scott Howson let Glencross go for a washed-up Dick Tarnstrom. The Oilers made those deals, brought those guys in, they helped the team for a little while, and they walked. But the only thing anybody ever seems to remember is "Kevin Lowe let those guys walk!"

  50. bookie says:

    But the only thing anybody ever seems to remember is "Kevin Lowe let those guys walk!"

    Exactly, and the same people have magically forgotten this season that it was Lowe that signed Penner.

  51. kinger says:

    Exactly, and the same people have magically forgotten this season that it was Lowe that signed Penner.

    This just reminded me of something that's been boiling under the ol' oilogosphere for the last little while.

    Was Penner a good signing?

  52. bookie says:

    Maybe we switched from MacT Trying to make a round Penner fit into a square mold to Renny/Quinn trying to make a square Hemsky fit into a round mold.

    Was that quote actually from Hemsky? (the "I mean we are talking about practice")

    There is no doubt the guy plays his heart out in games.

  53. Black Dog says:

    Funny what I remember is that this team was a goal away from being a Stanley Cup champion in June of 2006 and from that position of strength we are now working on our fourth consecutive year out of the playoffs, which would match the franchise low mark for futility.

    And that genius Kevin Lowe almost pissed that team away for want of a goalie.

    So forgive me if I'm not all that impressed with 'oh he signed Dustin Penner, he's a mad genius' as a statement in support of our team president.

    The team is a cap team, again, its going to be life and death to make the playoffs, again, and they are loaded up with big contracts going into a summer with a pile of young RFAs and a cap that isn't going to go through the roof.

    I've said it a million times and I will say it again. Taken on an individual basis you can argue that this move or that move was the right one but this club has missed the playoffs four of the last five seasons.

    His body of work speaks for itself.

  54. Black Dog says:

    bookie – that was Iverson

  55. bookie says:

    Thanks – I don't follow Bouncyball much so I didn't catch it.

  56. Bruce says:

    Not the game that I go out there and die for and play every game like it's my last but we're talking about practice man.

    KT: Do you think Allen Iverson's words apply to the way Ales Hemsky plays every game? I won't even attempt to answer cuz it'll get me in trouble, but I don't mind asking a provocative question on the subject.

  57. Lowetide says:

    Great point. Hemsky has always been a perimeter player, never one to get in there and take a risk.

  58. Black Dog says:

    Black Gold – that's some awesome shit.

  59. Lowetide says:

    As an aside, this is textbook for what happens to losing teams. Hemsky is probably a little banged up and although I have no evidence maybe he's a poor practice player.

    So, the coach (Renney) feels a need to light a fire and makes a vocal point. Not a bad plan, as long as your best player will respond and based on what we know about Hemsky it is not likely he's Shayne Corson 2.0 or anything.

    Then the media takes it to the head coach and he backs his associate coach and maybe he's a little frustrated too.

    And now we have the fans in full flame, Hemsky at the center of it all and the coaching staff wondering how in hell's name this all happened.

    Interesting organization, these Edmonton Oilers. Maybe they can shoot Hemsky out of a cannon?

  60. kinger says:

    If only we were lucky enough to land Jokinen a few years back, we'd have a real first line center to play with Hemsky and all would be well.

  61. knighttown says:

    Last November, the Flyers picked up Matt Carle, Dallas and Pittsburgh made a deal (Sydor-Boucher) and the Leafs sent away Colaiacovo and Steen for Stempniak.

    So trades can be made. And a team like the Oilers–with a massive hole–might have to overpay. So be it.

    I could pick at those trades, especially the second one as junk-in/junk-out.

    If we had any fucking salary cap room than I could see a Jeff Petry for Eric Belanger type of trade but we have -$1,860,000 in Cap space. That's negative 1.8 million. These are the types of trades that are out there for teams with Cap space.

    It's the other type, Tom Gilbert for RJ Umberger:
    -youngish veterns
    -"down" seasons
    -teams trade from positions of strength and shore up positions of weakness

    …that make so much sense on paper that aren't happening. Why is that? Are all GM's incompetant?

    I'm sure we could move Tom Gilbert for Marty Reasoner. Not being confrontational but is that kind of an overpay something you'd be comfortable with because it seems like GM's are only pulling the trigger if there is an obvious overpay. Actually, since there hasn't been a trade this month NO trades are out there but I have to acknowledge that trading is still possible. So is your whole Diane Lane thingie but I wouldn't hold my breath.

  62. Woodguy says:

    Interesting organization, these Edmonton Oilers. Maybe they can shoot Hemsky out of a cannon?

    If they did, they probably wouldn't watch where they're aiming and hit Penner and Vis and put them out for the rest of the season.

  63. kinger says:

    To add:

    Bruce, I appreciate what you bring to the conversation but I can't help but to draw a parallel between the way you present some of your arguments and a certain infamous 24 hour news station.

    "Is Barack Obama a terrorist?" (we're not saying he is, we're just asking questions)

    Reminds me of:

    "Do you think Allen Iverson's words apply to the way Ales Hemsky plays every game?" (Of course your not saying it applies Bruce, you're just asking questions)

  64. knighttown says:

    Oh, and I'm glad I haven't seen a comment like "big game tonight. With a win, we're back to .500."

    23 of the 30 teams in the NHL have records of .500 or above thanks to the three point (sometimes) games. I must say, whoever invented this concept was pretty intelligent. Being "only" 4 points out leaves hope and hope sells seats. Never mind that it's a fucking scam and that 4 points is Mountfuckingeverest…damn good marketing.

  65. The other John says:


    Agree with you re Quinn as GM. If I was Tambellini I would do something.

    Re Quinn comments on centers not helping Gilbert (aka "butter") out. I am not sure Hejduk was the center's man BUT if he was Gilbert did ZERO physically to stop him. Those goals are why I dislike Gilbert so much.

    Not sure you are right re Development. My fear is that that we have no top 30 player to buiild our team around a la Rick Nash nor do we have a strong group of top 75 players that make up for the lack of a superstar

    If our core as it develops is going to be Gagner, Cogliano, Brule, Eberle. MPS, Gilbert and Smid…. I do not expect we are going to compete to win the Cup with that core.

  66. Black Dog says:

    Interesting to note is thta listening to Quinn's remarks today he explains that the Renney/Hemsky deal was due to a Hemsky error on a drill.

    He makes a point of saying that he was not saying that Hemsky is a poor practice player.

    Of course they should still trade him because he's a bum. He kicks kittens and such. And he's a foreigner.

    Knighttown – well of course the question is who is responsible for the situation where they have no cap room – holy cow look at all of these contracts!

    Thing is if there is a will there is a way. Send Nilsson to the minors. Send Moreau to the minors. End of cap crunch. Of course its not my money.

  67. Lowetide says:

    I think you could project a strong playoff team based on the following:

    1. A quality #1 goalie
    2. Vis-Souray-Gilbert-Grebs-Smid
    3. Horcoff-Penner-Hemsky

    Plus two of the offensive kids up front developing as 40-50 point guys to play with O'Sullivan AND a veteran group at center, left wing and right wing to:

    1. win important faceoffs
    2. help the PK
    3. give the coach an experienced option when the kids have lost their brains

    The tragedy isn't that we don't have a Sam Gagner developing, it's that we don't have a Todd Marchant emerging and a Mike Grier to help him out.

    To borrow a phrase from yesterday's thread, fuckety-fuck-fuck.

  68. Woodguy says:

    Oilers 5v5 +/-ON/60 min 5 games played (all players 0+)

    Penner +2.24
    Staios +1.87
    Smid +1.68
    Hemsky +1.37
    Vis +1.32
    Souray +0.70
    Stortini +0.60
    Cogliano +0.48
    Brule +0.25
    Moreau 0
    Reddox 0

    Who (other than KT) would have picked Staios at #2?

  69. Lowetide says:

    kinger: Your typewriter has gone Abe Simpson on you. :-)

  70. PDO says:

    Chicago is only -142 tonight… pretty sure it'll be an Oiler win.

    This team is unbelievably frustrating, but they always do just enough to reel you back in.

    I'll say a 4-3 win, with no skills competition needed.

    Wouldn't it be cool if we woke up one of these days and saw that we'd waived Nilsson and dealt Cogliano for Sharp?

  71. Mr DeBakey says:

    If we're on the subject of youth and development, at what point do we become concerned that Cogliano and Gagner were rushed?

    My vote:
    two years ago

    As for the Penner signing:
    As the time I was Ok with it
    However. if the Oilers had gone to the 08 draft with all those moved picks & $4.25mm in extra Cap space,
    could something Very Good have been done?
    We'll never know.

  72. Ribs says:

    I'm thinking Quinn doesn't turn into the GM anytime soon. The Moose is in the Oilers GM Farm System right now and will be on his way shortly!

    These Hawks games are hard to watch when the Oilers seem to fall into the same trappings every time out. When will they learn not to go run and gun shoot'em out style against these guys? They're too damn fast and too damn good to keep up to. I'd like nothing more than to see our young guys outgun the Toews and Kanes of the Hawks but it just hasn't been happening and it's not going to any time soon.

    I hope the rodeo ice is still in effect. The slower the better.

  73. knighttown says:

    Knighttown – well of course the question is who is responsible for the situation where they have no cap room – holy cow look at all of these contracts!

    Don't get me wrong, this summer was pure horseshit. He tried to trade 3 guys for Heatley. Two of those guys were about to bust out and now appear to be franchise cornerstones. Then he signed a (turning) 37 year old goalie to a contract that was two years too long in the summer of the goalie. I (and MC79) were saying since the beginning of fucking time that if all these starters wanted to play in the NHL they'd be making league minimum, and voila, Biron signs for peanuts and no term. Huge, huge mistake and I won't change my tune on this unless he wins a Vezina in the next four years.

    And yeah, that Holy Grail for Oiler fans, Jim Vandermeer for a fecal burger (no offense to Brandon Prust) and Cap space happened this summer so THAT is proof that Tambo could have moved some of these guys.

    All I'm saying is that the trade ship has sailed based on the fact that teams with bigger holes than ours and more aggressive GM's continue to stand pat. I still want to skin Steve Tambellini, but for different reasons:)

    Thing is if there is a will there is a way. Send Nilsson to the minors. Send Moreau to the minors. End of cap crunch. Of course its not my money.

    That's an interesting quote. We've all talked as if this is an option but are there any quotes saying that Katz would consider a substantial buyout/bury job. Out on the right coast, we hear constant refrains from Burke that he'll park some vets in the minors, no problem…Holy Shit, I just noticed some guy named Tyler Bozek makes 3.725 M to play for the Marlies…tell me I'm reading that wrong.

    Anyway, didn't the Oil lose money last year? PJO? If I owned the team I'd tell my GM to fix his own problems, unless I was top 5 in profits every year.

  74. boopronger says:

    I find it funny and sad that everyone here talked about faceoffs and goals against as being main problems with this team and here we are with the Oilers 25th in GA and 30th in faceoffs. Solution seems easy – why is Tamboluloini waiting so long?

  75. knighttown says:

    When will they learn not to go run and gun shoot'em out style against these guys? They're too damn fast and too damn good to keep up to.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, your Edmonton Doppelgangers. Just wait until you see us play keepaway against the Red Wings and beat down those punks from Calgary!

    Le Sigh

  76. digger says:

    Some points:

    -IMO the chance that Quinn will take the Oilers GM job is negligible at best…if he were 5 years younger, my answer might be different. But now, I think he's on at most a 2 year mission to kick ass in that dressing room, then hand what's left over to Renney if he still wants the head coaching gig in 11/12. For better or worse, I think it'll be at least another 2 seasons before his job is in jeopardy.

    -The coaching staff was 100% in the right for holding Hemsky's feet to the coals for not only his lacklustre practice habits (and Brownlee confirmed that Hemsky being the first one off the ice and out the door is status quo for him), but for the example he sets for the younger offensive guys like Gagner and Cogliano.

    Hemsky is this team's unquestioned top forward in terms of talent, and its top point getter for 4 straight seasons. Like it or not, he needs to be setting a better example. He may not want to be a leader, but I have no doubt that his lead is followed (if that makes sense).

    -Like Quinn alluded to, this team's missed the playoffs enough recently that there is NOBODY on this team that's earned even the slightest right to exhibit lacklustre work habits, even during a practice. They haven't proven anything to anybody, so if they rebel against what's being set before them, then that says more about the character of the players in that room than it does about the coaching staff.

    I love Hemsky's talent, but when Geoff Ward told certain people that he didn't want a 21 yr old Hemsky anywhere near the Edmonton Roadrunners when he was coaching them during the lockout, it doesn't take much for me to imagine why.

  77. digger says:

    For better or worse, I think it'll be at least another 2 seasons before Tambellini's job is in jeopardy.


  78. Dennis says:

    A few things on a few things:

    Bruce: you can nail the Flames for not giving MSL a chance but don't you see a difference in the fact that the Oil employed GCross and Hejda and had a pretty good idea that they were going to be something or somebody/

    LT: I had obviously forgotten that Quinn was there as the coach when Gator was moved. Also, I don't want to throw Cogliano with the bathwater because of his linemates and maybe that's what I should focus on. Still, I'd like to see him with a better set of linemates before I moved him and/or I'd rather move him for someone who fits in better right now.

  79. Jonathan Willis says:

    Please don't make excuses for Tambellini, about how he hasn't been able to make moves or whatever.

    This is the same guy who offered Chris Neil 2MM/yr this summer.

    Chris Neil. Chris Neil. Chris – wait for it – Neil.

    They dumped Brodziak for picks, so they had roster room. Meanwhile, Radek Bonk had to sign in Russia, Marcel Goc took a bargain contract in NASHVILLE, Dean McAmmond and Rob Niedermayer went without deals until finally NJ signed them, Andy Hilbert took a two-way deal in Minnesota, Adam Mair hit the waiver wire, Chris Gratton still doesn't have a contract, and on and on and on.

    If this guy could clear 2MM for Chris Neil, then he could bloody well have made the sort of obvious changes everybody with two functioning brain cells and a reasonable knowledge of the team knew needed to be made.

    Tambellini's summer was miserable. Maybe he'll get better. But outside of stupidity, I'm really struggling to see what his excuse is.

  80. Jonathan Willis says:

    As for Quinn in the G.M.'s job, I think it's mostly wishful thinking.

    I'm sure he'd take it though; this summer he was talking about how coaching is a young man's game, and there's no security in it. He's been a GM before, he'd like the role again.

  81. CrazyCoach says:


    I still remember that crap Lemaire played with Lafleur when he was coach. Years later Lafleur commented that while he and Steve Shutt were scoring 60+ goals/season, Lemaire was scared of scoring 50 goals because it was too much pressure.

    As far as Renney yelling at Hemsky, I think there are still some lines being drawn between the coaching staff and the players. Some times that does take a little time and when things are going good there is plenty of time, but when things aren't well, that time is crunched. Renney feels the pressure and is simply passing it on. Maybe Hemsky needs a fire lit under him. Practice after all, should be the coaches time and games are the players time. You work hard for me as a player during my time and your time will be increased. Probably too simplistic for some in here, but that's how I run my bench.

  82. Bruce says:

    Digger: Good stuff, as usual. You really live up to your name. I'm sure I never heard that Geoff Ward remark from the lockout year; it's kinda chilling.

    LT/KT: Yes, I was deliberately being provocative; I just didn't see that specific Iverson quote being all that applicable to the guy in question. Do you?

    Dennis: My comment about there being skeletons in every team's closet remains. There's player movement every off-season, and when a guy is Unrestricted the team doesn't necessarily have the final say.

    Look on every roster for a bargain signing and you'll find another team or two who let same bargain slip through their fingers. I'll bet there are Atlanta fans who still regret letting Steve Staios walk.Wasn't it Chicago that let Rene Bourque get away? He's Calgary's leading scorer now.

    My bigger concern locally is with the relative lack of NHL-quality replacements for the ones that got away, and I suspect we agree on that score.

    JW: Agreed on Neil, I never did get that one. And I like Neil (way) more than most. But I would rather have Zack Stortini for $700 K, thanks very much. That said, Neil was a difference maker in Edmonton's loss at Ottawa just last week, so what do I know?

  83. PDO says:

    Anyone else get extremely frustrated watching Bouwmeester flying around, and wondering what could have been?

    It would have meant moving one of Souray or Visnovsky, but the guy is better than either, and we could have actually addressed a need…

  84. Lowetide says:

    Bruce: I really don't know enough about basketball to comment. I do know that there are people who believe Hemsky and Horcoff are a problem (either in terms of effort or talent) and I do not share that opinion.

    As for Mr. Iverson, I cannot comment.

  85. Hockey Noob says:

    Andy Grabia over at the Battle of Alberta blog, made a recent comment. It was probably with respect to the Flames, but it's applicable to any team.

    Basically, it alluded to the question of how many defesemen can a team afford to pay for offense from given the cap era?

    Andy suggested that one is the limit, what does everyone here think? IMO, four is definitely too many.

  86. Lowetide says:

    I'm always rambling on about having a "wide range of skills" but the more complete the player the more situations he can be useful in.

    So, the Oilers have the big 4 but there are holes in everyone's game. Lubo is gold, but lacks size and he can't exactly lean on people. Souray is huge and can hit people plus has a cannon, but he's not fast and his lateral movement isn't exactly top drawer. Grebs has some nice things but his brain takes a holiday and Gilbert's got all kinds of game but lacks that physical element.

    So, I'd say that you can have more than one offensive defender but need a guy with a complete skill set to make it go.

  87. digger says:

    BTW, Hockeycentral's reporting that Khabibulin 'tweaked' his back today, so JDD gets the start…and somebody named Tory Jeung will back up because the Oilers haven't had time yet to call anybody up from the farm.


  88. PDO says:

    Who'd of thought Khabibulin might get hurt… ;)

  89. Asiaoil says:

    Agree that Lowebellini's summer was pathetic (they are attached at the hip make no mistake) in that Penner for Heatley is actually a pretty even trade right now considering salary – might have even required a Moreau thrown in to even up the salary numbers. That Lowebellini actually was willing to throw in Smid and Cogs is pathetic. Add in the Bulin overpay and absolute lack of anything else despite the canyon like holes in the roster and it's a fantastically pathetic display of mgmt.

    EVERYONE with half a hockey brain knows what needs to be done and senior management doesn't get it. When that happens it's time for the owner to clean house. The owner needs to grow a pair – Lowe can go build a rink and not darken the area – Tambo can just go. This is like the Flames under Buttons the Clown – and change is happening at the same pace as Lowe's receding hairline. But like the leafs – the rink is full and the crowd docile so the imbeciles will continue running the roost.

  90. Bar Qu says:

    Noob, I read the same thing and I don't know that I agree that it applies to the Oil.

    There is only 2 Chris Pronger's in the league – him and Bouwmeester. Phaneuf is aspiring to be like them, and is being paid like he is. I think that is the problem for the Flames.

    Meanwhile the Oil have a bunch of complimentary parts in their 4-12 D and 2 big guys in Souray and Vis who earn their paycheques every night. Different situation entirely.

  91. Bruce says:

    LT: Not a basketball fan myself, just an All-Sports fan so do follow the game. In my limited experience — and highlight reels are very deceptive in a sport where they show you 8 scoring plays out of 80 — Iverson is a "blood and guts" type who leaves it all out on the floor every night. His comment very specifically addressed that approach, and I took it at face value at the time. He's still wrong about not practicing hard.

  92. Doogie2K says:

    In Calgary they're still crying over Marty St.Louis for goodness sake.

    And to a lesser degree, Marc Savard, though he was disgruntled by the time he left; St. Louis they just straight up gave up on.

    somebody named Tory Jeung will back up because the Oilers haven't had time yet to call anybody up from the farm.

    That would be Torrie Jung, starting goalie for Your Edmonton Oil Kings. His numbers this year: 5-11-3, 3.29, 0.903. I suspect the Oil Kings have taken a step back this year, because last year, he was 20-20-8, 2.56, 0.912, unspectacular but perfectly fine for a playoff-bubble team. (Also, because they're in a three-way tie for third from the bottom, leading only Lethbridge and the Godawful PG Cougars.)

    Question: The Lightning drafted him two years ago (7/183, 2007). Did TBL sign him? If not, is he a free agent, because it's been two years? If so, are they simply looking the other way because it's an emergency call-up?

  93. Bruce says:

    Thanks for the bad news, Digger. :) Meaning "thanks … Digger", somebody had to be the messenger.

    Defence, then forwards, now goaltending, sigh. Not a surprise though.

    Btw, Torrie Jung is the Oil Kings starter, had a looksee in training camp. Under such circumstances having such a guy right in town is as good as we can hope for. If circumstances arise that he actually gets in there, we're probably fucked in any event.

    Scary stuff.

  94. Bruce says:

    Oops, thanks Doogie, shoulda hit refresh. Presumably though, Jung wouldn't have been in Oilers camp if he had any ties to TBL.

  95. PDO says:

    This could be kinda fun to watch in a train wreck type way….

  96. Woodguy says:

    .and somebody named Tory Jeung will back up because the Oilers haven't had time yet to call anybody up from the farm.

    He's the Oil Kings goalie.
    Drafted by the Bolts, but never signed, went back into the draft this past year,but wasn't taken.

    Was the main reason the Oil Kings made the playoffs last year, IMO.

    If JDD gets shelled, I'd like to see him play.

  97. Doogie2K says:

    Thanks, Bruce and Woodguy. I sort of suspected that, but it struck me to ask anyway.

  98. Lowetide says:

    I'll be interested in seeing if Dubnyk gets the call and then sees some action. Oilers need to make a decision on JDD/DD next summer so might as well see what he looks like.

    Who's starting for the Hawks? Murray Bannerman? Mike Veisor? Ken Brown?

  99. Woodguy says:

    They dumped Brodziak for picks, so they had roster room.

    They did free up a roster spot, not necessarily for a C, seeing as they had 10,89,13,67,78 all penciled in.

    Not saying that's a good thing, but that's what they had.

  100. Hockey Noob says:

    @LT / Barque.

    Good thoughts… I've read arguments that question the value in paying for offense form dmen instead of forwards.

    How much does a Gilbert cost for his offensive production (okay let's go with last year's numbers to be nice) relative to a winger with similar or more point production?

    @Digger, please tell me that you're joking… Is it April 1 already?

  101. Lowetide says:

    Hockey Noob: I'd argue that Gilbert last season (and overall) is just an extremely valuable player. He's having a harder time this season and we can't overrate defenseman results (offensively) but this is a quality player.

    If I was GM (and you should all thanks God I'm not) the two D that I would not deal are Lubo and Gilbert.

  102. pboy says:

    Thanks for linking Quinn's pre and post game presser Gerta. Much appreciated.

  103. mc79hockey says:

    Penner for Heatley is actually a pretty even trade right now

    Might be we should wait more than twenty games before we declare that to be the case. And if you're doing the math, Cogliano's probably had negative value to date.

    Hockeycentral's reporting that Khabibulin 'tweaked' his back today, so JDD gets the start

    This is amazing. I was just walking back from the home thinking about Khabby and wondering when his back would act up. Hilarious.

  104. Lowetide says:

    Fucking Tyler. Why can't you walk back home thinking "I wonder when the Oilers are going to make a brilliant trade?"


  105. Woodguy says:

    Jung on Amateur try-out contract as per Oilers press release.

  106. mc79hockey says:

    Fucking Tyler. Why can't you walk back home thinking "I wonder when the Oilers are going to make a brilliant trade?"

    Sorry LT. Shame for the rest of you that I'm apparently the guy with the magic event creating mind AND I'm a pessimistic cynic.

  107. Lowetide says:

    No worries, Tyler. I know you want this to be right as bad as the rest of us. Just use your power for good!

  108. PDO says:

    Why are the Habs wearing blue?

  109. Hockey Noob says:


    I agree that Gilbert's a quality player and that he does some things very well. The loss of shelter from Staios and Souray being injured clearly affected him this year (arguably).

    In my mind, the question would be how much Gilbert would be worth in terms of 'cap hit' if you take his past offensive production out of the equation.

    I guess if he's considered to be somewhat weak defensively and not particularly physical, then as a GM, you're paying a premium for those second assists–especially if his point production is compared to how much he exceeds a league average defenseman.

    Would the Oilers be better off having a dman who's cheaper and perhaps better defensively while spending the cap savings up front? Just asking…

  110. Hockey Noob says:

    Sorry, and I don't mean to pick on Gilbert. Teams need dmen who could fire a shot from the point (Souray) or move the puck and score on the powerplay (Visnovsky).

    Given that the Prongers or JBo's are very rare, I think teams would be better off paying for 2 dmen who can shoots/move the puck. After that, maybe they're better off saving the extra money spent on offense from dmen.

    Find dmen who can at least play well defensively for a good value, then use the savings to buy offense up front.

  111. logical thinking says:

    Who picks the 3 stars in the nhl? Jarome Iginla scored 3 goals and was left out. Glencross got one assist and was star #1

  112. jon k says:

    With Khabby, the best we can hope is not for him to avoid injury, that's impossible.

    No, the best we can hope is for him to avoid career-ending injury.

    He retires and we are officially fucked. 3.75 million cap hit for zero value, for 3 more years.

    That contract is a beaut.

  113. Traktor says:

    "And if you're doing the math, Cogliano's probably had negative value to date."

    2.40 gfon60
    1.92 gaon60

    +0.48 differential

    8.27 PP PTS/60

    I think most GM's are smart enough to know when a kid is not getting an opportunity. The fans… not so much.

  114. knighttown says:

    I quoted the Iverson thing merely because it is the greatest "practice" quote in sports history. I'm surprised how many of you weren't aware of it…you should YouTube the whole video. Absolutely nothing was implied about Hemsky and to be honest, I haven't bothered reading the article because #83's practice habits are the least of my concerns.

    If I was forced to answer Bruce's earlier question about The Answer's effort compared to Hemsky, I'd say that Hemsky's try pales in comparison but that's only because AI had one of the best motors in sports. You know the handful of times 83 puts himself in a dangerous spot during a season? Iverson, at 165 pounds did that 5 times a game. Fearless.

    Sliiiight attitude problem tho

  115. jon k says:

    Also, forgot to mention: Our season could very well be determined by Khabibulin's injury. We could very quickly find ourselves competing with Boston and Carolina for top pick if Khabby is out for any significant time and JDD isn't up to the task.

  116. Lowetide says:

    Our season was decided by Kevin Lowe when he dealt Chris Pronger and then didn't spend the Pronger money (not the same as the return) on men who could play defense.

    All of it (Souray, Lubo, Smid) came from that transaction.

  117. knighttown says:

    According to NHLsCap website, the Leafs have -$6.5 million in Cap space. Whaat? They're slotted to use $63,327,000 by far the most in league. And that doesn't inlcude the $3.75 M price tag the put on Tyler Bozak which pretty much guarantees their prized prospect doesn't see the NHL on his deal.

    I'm not criticizing cause I simply don't know enough about the inner workings so a simple question for the Cap experts here.

    Not likely to win organization of the year, are they?

  118. Bruce says:

    All of it (Souray, Lubo, Smid) came from that transaction.

    LT: True dat. 2 of the 3 for sure.

    Who's starting for the Hawks? Murray Bannerman? Mike Veisor? Ken Brown?

    Denis DeJordy.

  119. Black Dog says:


  120. Bruce says:

    Not likely to win organization of the year, are they?

    KT: Careful with those rhetorical questions.

    It is kinda funny, though. It is my devout wish that Burke has traded they keys to the 2010 draft for his American wonder boy.

    My favourite night of the whole season was Thursday when T.O. scored the go-ahead goal with <30 seconds in regulation and still found a way to lose. Then Chicago kicked the holy shit out of Calgary in the doubleheader game.

    Hey, when the home cooking's no hell, one might as well enjoy the misery of others.

  121. Bruce says:

    Oh yeah, Cherry reminds me … another fucking vicious knee-on-knee shot from Matt Cooke, and yet again, NO SUSPENSION!!! Is the official position that he's not a rpeeat offender because they failed to suspend the fucker the other 93 times? Or does Cooke have pictures of Colin Campbell and a sheep?

    Sooner or later somebody is going to take a suspension the other way and take that mofo out. I don't condone it, but it sure as fuck won't surprise me when it happens.

  122. PDO says:

    "You gotta be like Ovechkin" – Don Cherry.

    My brain just exploded.


  123. Traktor says:

    I thought it was a clean hit. Knee on knee but it was also chest to chest. Unlucky more than anything.

  124. Rod says:

    re: Flames skeletons…

    It didn't end with St. Louis and Savard. Basically same time frame the Flames took a pass on J.S. Giguere. From that closet alone, that's two Cups (key contributions as well), while the Flames have won a total of three rounds. Since '89.

    Lowe doesn't run the best ship in the NHL (obviously), but the Flames aren't any better.

  125. Black Dog says:

    Rod – except the Flames have made the playoffs every season of the last five. And will probably make it again this year. The Oilers are one for five and less than an even bet to make it this year.

    As a guy who has been beating the Quinn GM drum for a while I guess I'll take a crack at the argument here. I watched Quinn for years here in T.O. and your man does not suffer fools gladly (witness the 'don't' clown around on my time remark about Comrie – pure fucking gold)

    Now this is likely his last gig, I would think, or close to it, before he goes off to Senioradvisortown. So here he is, coach of a team that is so obviously flawed and fully aware that these flaws have not been addressed for years.

    I am thinking that his idea of a last hurrah is not to drive a beater down that highway. He wants to go out in style. At the very least he wants a crack at the playoffs.

    Now he has watched Tambellini do nothing all summer and so far this fall.

    Does anyone think he's going to be happy to wait on him to address the issues that this club has?

    Now who the hell knows? I certainly don't, I admit, but I just can't see him sitting by and taking it. Its not his style. When all the political BS was going on at MLSE he did not stand by. He waded in and took care of his own interests as best he could, every time.

    That's it, I guess. But I can absolutely seeing him bumping off Tambellini if they don't make the playoffs again, letting Renney handle the nuts and bolts while he acts as GM and puts together a club he feels can compete. He certainly is quite clear in his pressers that this club cannot, imo.

  126. Lowetide says:

    You know, we get together a few nights a week and prattle on about what we know and about what we think we know.

    But if you copy and paste what Pat just said that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

  127. Bruce says:

    Traktor: C'mon man, what have you been watching. Do you think it was an accident the other 36 times too? The guy aims for the knees, and he does it all the fucking time. He also aims for the numbers, and the head. He is a cheap, cheating [insert HBomb's C-word here]. I have less respect for that guy than anybody in the league, and he's earned my disrespect one cheap shot at a time. In fact, he puts the "diss" in respect.

    There was one in the playoffs last year, you could watch his eyes the whole way, he went in and took the guy by the knee and went down himself to make it look like incidental and the refs and the league looked the other way yet again and I just don't fucking get it. He's an obvious guy to make an example of, nobody'll ever confuse him and Ovechkin. Sit the fucker down. Case closed. 30 strikes and you're out.

  128. Bruce says:

    BDHS: Excellent points. I think at his age and with his history and all, Quinn would prefer to take the high road. All he needs is Tambellini's ear in a tangible way, he's certainly not pulling any punches and I'm sure Tambo has heard every word he needs to and probably a few more in the land beyond microphones. If they agree on team needs — and don't forget it was Tambellini who decided the team needed Quinn! — it doesn't much matter who pulls the trigger.

    Eh, you! Kevin! Get your ear off that wall!

  129. Ribs says:

    Well, now that Quinn is GM I sure hope he doesn't trade away Steve Pisani or Mike Horcoff. Now that Khabibulin and Fernando are retired he will have some nice cap space to work with.

  130. Smarmy Boss says:

    Quinn's presser was great. Apparently, Hemsky is going to wrestle a bear in the first intermission tonight.

  131. Traktor says:

    "Do you think it was an accident the other 36 times too?"

    No, just that time.

    Love him or hate him he's an impact player and he is only a 10 goal guy.

  132. Traktor says:

    I'm probably in the minority here but hopefully Steve was just keeping the seat warm for Kevin's return.

  133. Lowetide says:

    Traktor: Where are you right now? I need exact location.

  134. Traktor says:


    That might explain things.

  135. Black Dog says:

    Interesting Hot Stove comments from LeBrun.

    Burke willing to take on salary cap issues if he gets a pick as well.

    Mr. Tambellini, pick up that phone!

  136. Lowetide says:

    Traktor: lol. You're too close to the sun.

  137. andy grabia says:

    He's still wrong about not practicing hard.

    Couldn't disagree more. Iverson was always a bit of a head-case, but the guy was an absolute killer on the court. No one can ever say he didn't give everything he had, every single night. He's listed at 6 feet, but there is no way he is that tall. I'd say 5 feet 10 inches, max. In the NBA, that's just unheard of. He was fearless driving to the net against guys a foot taller than him, and had a crossover that would make the Gods weep. As a rookie, he absolutely undressed one of the greatest defenders of all-time. Guy by the name of Jordan. You might have heard of him. Iverson was a once-in-a-generation talent who got picked on about practicing by a bunch of white dudes who didn't like his cornrolls and tatooes.

    The greater point: I couldn't care less about how Hemsky performs in practice. As LT has noted, we've never heard any of this stuff about him before, and the only reason we are hearing about it now is because the team is doing so poorly. The guy drives results for this team. End of story. And he's been doing it for years, with a (mostly) abysmal supporting cast. He plays for a ridiculously cheap $4.1 million a year on a team that has done absolutely nothing to help or protect him. I'm just happy he shows up for practices, to be honest. Most guys would have thrown up their hands in resignation at this point, or publicly thrown their coaches and managers under the bus. He plays hard, plays injured, drives results, and never bitches or complains. If he wants to switch down to second gear for practice, so be it.

  138. Ribs says:

    The announcer for this Springfield game is amazing. I don't think he's taken a breathe yet.

  139. PDO says:

    Two questions:

    #1) Any UFC fans here? The prelims are available on spike… can't believe Grove stole that… dominated the entire fight and gets one chance and locks in an armbar. My bank account can't believe it either…

    #2) I know a few people here had a torn labrum… exactly how painful did the rehab get? I'm still only doing range of motion, but I can barely love my damn left arm now without shooting pains (about 3 weeks into physio, don't see the physiotherapist again until Tuesday….)

  140. andy grabia says:

    Andy Grabia over at the Battle of Alberta blog, made a recent comment. It was probably with respect to the Flames, but it's applicable to any team.

    That was Matt Fenwick, not me, but I'm glad to accept praise on his behalf. :)

  141. Black Dog says:

    PDO – I think Danny from St. Johns likes that MSM stuff but you need to hear it from him.

    As for loving your left arm, well, I love mine too, I mean, hell it feels like someone else is doing the business, you know ;) but maybe if you're having that much pain you should just ease off, you know what I mean.

  142. PDO says:



    Move my left arm.

    Fucking perverts :-).

  143. Black Dog says:

    Its true, this little corner of the interweb is seedier than most. I have to take a shower every time I log off.

  144. andy grabia says:

    I have to take a shower every time I log off.

    Is that what you call it? Logging off? Braggart.

  145. PDO says:

    I just hope he isn't one of those people who reuses ziplocks.

  146. Jfry says:

    i wish hemsky had a little more datsyuk in him…that guy is good. wow.

  147. Bruce says:

    No one can ever say he didn't give everything he had, every single night.

    Exactly. He walked the talk. I just question how much the quote applies.

    The greater point: I couldn't care less about how Hemsky performs in practice.

    Andy: I am familiar with the theory, and realize it broadly applies to veterans, guys nursing injuries and superstars, and who knows, Ales might be all three.

    I guess where I was coming from was when Wayne Gretzky was the best player on the Oilers he was renowned for his extraordinarily hard work and focus in practice, which indeed I witnessed a few times. And when Wayne set an example like that and the mortal superstars followed, the schleps had no alternative. I heard on pretty good authority that Kent Nilsson's practice habits changed when he got to Edmonton … and you'll notice he didn't stick around, just won his Cup and went home. But his work ethic was no problem when he was here, which belied his reputation to a certain extent. :)

    Now maybe Gretzky's practice habits only meant squat to Gretzky, who knows. Maybe that team togetherness thing was all a myth, too. All I know is, whatever it was those gusy did, it worked. And what's been happening around here the past few years hasn't.

    PS: I would imagine this whole thing is about 99% overblown. Renney reamed Hemsky for misunderstanding a drill or something, not paying attention for a minute. Stuff happens. he may well not have deserved it other than everybody gets shit sometimes and it was his turn. Sather used to ream on Gretzky and Coffey all the time in the room … everybody paid attention after that.

    I'm just happy to hear evidence every other week or so that Tom Renney is doing his thing. :)

    And if Ales comes out with an "I'll show that fucker" attitude, well that's all good, isn't it?

  148. Asiaoil says:

    MC – yeah given Heatley's baggage and salary – a straight Penner for Heater swap is not silly at all. Let's swap positions and put Penner beside Jumbo and Heater on Horcoff's busted wing and see OK? Think Heater's performance drops? Maybe?

    Cogs having negative trade value? He's on an entry level contract and has basically established a 20 goal level of performance. Put down the pipe my friend – your peddling opinion and not numbers based reality here.

  149. Bruce says:

    … and if I'm Bruce Boudreau right now, I'm reaming out Ovechkin for taking too long a shift. Had a chance to change, didn't and got caught out for another 50 seconds. He was a boat anchor in his own end for a lot of that time.

    That said, I may be Bruce, but I'm certainly not Bruce Boudreau.

  150. SK Oiler Fan says:

    The Leafs are so bad their Zamboni drivers can't even get it right.

  151. Black Dog says:

    The NHL, Mickey Mouse since forever.

  152. pboy says:

    Love him or hate him he's an impact player and he is only a 10 goal guy.

    I hate Matt Cooke and I've never met the man. But there's a reason why he was a 1st liner on HBomb's C-team. Dirty, dirty player who is always willing to stick out a knee or an elbow but his gloves stay glued to his hands at all time. Basically an asshole of epic proportions.

    This Leaf game can't end quickly enough, unbelievably boring.

  153. Dennis says:

    I'm a Hoyas fan so I saw a lot of AI when he was in college – and I'm still pissed at him for being the first Hoya to come out early for the draft – so I saw a lot of him back then and then I followed him for a few years when he went to the Sixers.

    I never read this – but it must have been brought up somewhere by someone – but that little guy played so hard during the Games that I'm not surprised he loathed practice.

  154. Bruce says:

    You know you're old-school when …

    you find yourself agreeing with Don Cherry. But every once in awhile, I do.

    He is 100.0% correct on the instigator for the very reason that they usually miss the real instigator. he featured yet another cheap shot from behind by Cooke on Kovalchuk, who goes apeshit on Cooke and gets 2, 5 and 10. The league not only doesn't punish the asshole, they actively reward him and his team for his chickenshit behaviour. Makes me sick.

    Cooke is just lucky that was Kovalchuk and not Bertuzzi or McSorley or Wilf Paiement. Of course he would never fuck with guys like that in the first place, not without three or four officials and a scrumline of teammates in between.

    Fuckin' scumbag. Too bad Kovy didn't clean his clock.

  155. Bruce says:

    Random stat of the night.


    1st game: 1 GA
    2nd game: 2 GA
    3rd game: 3 GA
    4th game: 4 GA

    Dennis, is it too late to take the "over"?

  156. Kish says:

    ridiculous. 24 has tons of time and is stationary, three feet from the red line. result? icing.

  157. Lowetide says:

    Oilers have kharma on their side tonight. Lordy.

  158. Traktor says:

    I've seen better defensive coverage from the Detroit Lions.

  159. SK Oiler Fan says:

    Junior Novice hockey on their own zone.

  160. PDO says:

    That's two bad turnovers (one by Smid and one by Gagner) leading to goals against… just a terrible play by 89 along the boards there to allow the D to keep the puck in.

    That said, JDD still sucks. How he's giving up those rebounds on both those goals is beyond me….

  161. Baroque says:

    I've seen better defensive coverage from the Detroit Lions.

    Must have been when you were drinking and delusional, because I doubt that is bossible. :)

  162. Lowetide says:

    Mark Lee is so ill he sounds like the Oilers. I want Gagner to be good really bad but sometimes I wonder what he's doing out there.

  163. Bruce says:

    Baroque: Not bossible?

    Who's been brinking?

  164. SK Oiler Fan says:

    Gags turnerd it over and preceeded to watch the rest of the play above the hash marks.

  165. Traktor says:

    "Must have been when you were drinking and delusional, because I doubt that is possible. :)"

    Funny you say that. I'm actually started drinking again tonight after laying off the sauce for a good 2-3 months.

  166. Baroque says:

    I don't drink!

    It's been a long week and it's late in Michigan and the Wings got another injury so I'm stressed out. :)

  167. Lowetide says:

    JDD have a vomit bag?

  168. SK Oiler Fan says:

    Staios needs to recognize Reddox is in trouble there. He still wouldn't have had the legs to get over there though.
    All 3 goals from the blue paint.

  169. PDO says:

    Shit goal #3.

    Good thing we don't have a real backup so we can develop the "kid" we drafted 7 fucking years ago…

    That's a nice move by Kane, but there's no way there should be a five hole for him to tuck that into. None. Zero. Zilch.

  170. Bruce says:

    PDO: Gagner was culpable on the first goal too. Both Vis and Gags were way too far from the front of the net, Kane and Toews double-teamed Smid and nobody was close enough to pick up one of them walking out in front. Centre just has to be deep on a play like that … Smid was hung out to dry. Ladi gets the primary error, but far from the only one.

  171. Baroque says:

    And no, I don't BRINK either before some smartass points that out.

  172. Lucinius says:

    This.. is going to be painful to watch.

    Yet I can't look away.

  173. mc79hockey says:

    Khabby injured, JDD with an .891 save percentage…who could have foreseen any of this?

  174. Bruce says:

    Boy, we sure didn't need 3 GA on 6 shots for the second fucking game in a row.

  175. Baroque says:

    And after the third goal, you may actually be right about the Lions.

  176. Lowetide says:

    I know it is over, but this entire error thing only works if you track all of it. ALL OF IT. Not just the plays that end up GA. Just saying.

  177. Bruce says:

    Terrific move by Hemsky there. More please.

  178. Traktor says:

    "PDO: Gagner was culpable on the first goal too."

    You have a great eye for the game. I was going to say the same thing but I rag on Gagner enough as it is.

  179. SK Oiler Fan says:

    Keepaway… in the NHL

  180. Lucinius says:

    Hemsky looks decent at least. Blocked a shot, managed to clear the zone (a massive accomplishment for this team, apparently).

    Maybe more players need a lazy practice regime on this team? After all, they don't seem to be benefiting from practices… they'd at least be more rested!

  181. SK Oiler Fan says:

    Hate to admit it, but Lee just summarized the first 10 minutes. 3 Oilers outworked by 1 Hawk.
    Obviously they don't have a sniff tonight, but at least put in some work here.

  182. mc79hockey says:

    LT: Or put another way, if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, OF COURSE THE FUCKING TREE MADE A SOUND.

  183. Steve says:

    So I assume that the fact that Jung's been drafted and is now a free agent means that he's not a serious NHL prospect, right? Such that this kind of thing is going to be his only opportunity to see action?

    Put the fucker in. Kane and Toews might get a hat trick apiece, but he'll have something to tell his grandchildren.

  184. PDO says:

    Of course, if we have an NHL quality goalie in net, the Oilers are up 1-0.

    Just saying.

    LT is right that we have to count all the mistakes (and I think Dennis' work on scoring chances is doing that), but there's no denying that Gagner hasn't looked good tonight… and I'm one of Weight's biggest fans, bad night or not.. ;)

  185. Black Dog says:

    Ty – next Sunday night? You me and that pervert Winters. What say you?

    3 goals on 7 shots last game. 3 goals on 6 shots tonight.

    Dubnyk has the next start I would guess.

  186. Steve says:

    (The above suggestion may be influenced by the fact that I have Kane, Toews, and Versteeg in my fantasy league.)

  187. PDO says:


    I kinda wanna see him put in, in a "watching a trainwreck" type way.

    It'd be ugly, but…


    Catch the NYBA getting his BA kicked all over the ring?

  188. mc79hockey says:

    Agree with Steve re: Jung. Give him the third if we're not back in it.

    Pat – Saturday is no good – got a game. Sunday works – we should pick a night with a game.

    Sorry about the game tonight – meant to get back to you and tell you I had one of my own and it slipped my mind.

  189. Traktor says:


    No, I missed it like a Horcoff one-timer.

  190. Black Dog says:

    No worries, we got the guys out. Played on the Olympic ice at UCC, I'm in worse shape than usual.

    If you're up for a Sunday morning game next weekend you're invited, we have a couple of injuries and a few guys out of town so we're a little short these days.

    Yeah we were talking about Sunday night. Winters is off to Vegas the week after and then its mid December and with Christmas looming it will be a little tougher.

    I'll figure out a spot and drop you a line. Mike's in.

  191. Bruce says:

    I know it is over, but this entire error thing only works if you track all of it. ALL OF IT. Not just the plays that end up GA. Just saying.

    LT: Sorry, but I disagree. It's all about sampling. If we could track all of it, why isn't anybody doing it? Because it's too labour intensive. So you find a way to sample, and GF and GA is a perfectly reasonable place to start simply because it's actually possible to do it.

    Scoring is the exact same way. We track offence by when the puck goes into the net. At the end of the year a guy might have made thousands of good passes and created hundreds of scoring opportunities, but we're going to look at his boxcars and reach conclusions. And if one guy is 6-11-17 and another is 21-34-55 it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that the second guy is the better offensive player. Even without counting ALL OF IT.

    Sure, on a given night a guy can make 10 great plays and get nuttin' and on another he can look sideways at the puck and get two assists. So this game or that game sample can be pretty close to meaningless, but you add up enough of them and the numbers start to
    mean something.

    Same goes for errors. Within a game or a week they are an analytical tool. But over the course of a season or two or three, then they start to mean something as a statistical tool.

  192. Kish says:

    This is like one of those few games in you mens league where they're still figuring out the divisions. You show up, get killed by a team and hope that either you get moved down or they get moved up a division. If only.
    Which segues nicely into my far fetched wish: that the NHL was like the British football leagues. The bottom teams are in danger of getting relegated.
    Your 2009/2010 oilers: trying to avoid relegation.

  193. SK Oiler Fan says:

    I'm agreeing with Milbury??
    Beer me.

    Patio looked like a chicken shit

  194. mc79hockey says:

    PJ has really turned into a delightful addition.

  195. Black Dog says:

    PJ Stock makes me want to shoot myself.

  196. Traktor says:

    PJ Stock reminds me of NASCAR fans.

    Can someone post Horcoff's behindthenet numbers?

    I would post them myself but then nobody would see them.

  197. Dennis says:

    I get a kick out of Abe Simpson's honesty and frustration as much as the next guy but him nor Renney will ever be able to coach any line other than 10's the ability to be able to match with the kane-sharp-toews line.

    So, if that guy can't get get around to matching that line with the horc line, then he should shut the fuck up about everyone else.


  198. Dennis says:

    BTW, the 19-67-85 line are a collective 0/17 in terms of SC's.

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