Horcoff Hurt?

We knew Shawn Horcoff was somewhat hobbled from a blocked shot, we knew he was one of the players who had the flu. Now we find out that he was in pain after an Andy Sutton hit on Long Island. Robin Brownlee is speculating it might be a separated shoulder.

I know that it must get tiring sometimes talking about “lack of balance” on the roster and not having “enough actual NHL players” but this is getting crazy. Kevin Lowe’s team now reminds me of that scene from Planes, Trains and Automobiles where Steve Martin breaks into laughter and tells John Candy “you’ve don’t it to yourself this time.”

Only Steve Martin wasn’t laughing for long, and we’re not laughing at all.

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85 Responses to "Horcoff Hurt?"

  1. bookie says:

    "Funny thing, the radio still works"

  2. Brett Gee 英 明 says:

    "How do they know which way we're going anyways?"

  3. quain says:

    Good high-end talent in the draft this year?

  4. eggie says:

    Call up Schremp already!!

    (oops, just so used to it).

  5. uni says:

    I can just imagine what MacT will say on the TSN panel after the Oilers go 1 for 11 on faceoffs in a game, "I begged them to sign Marty Reasoner, I begged them!"

  6. Craig says:

    I cannot believe how beat up this team is.

  7. B.C.B. says:

    Beat up or not, this team is only experiencing the problems that most (if not all) rational bloggers have been pointing out for at least two years: LT's "lack of balance" or "real NHL players". We should not be blaming injuries, but the brass: Oh wait, LT was.

    It reminds me of the scene, in Planes Trains and Automobiles, between Steve Martin and the car rental agent:
    "And I really don't care for the way your company left me in the middle of fucking nowhere with fucking keys to a fucking car that isn't fucking there. And I really didn't care to fucking walk down a fucking highway and across a fucking runway to get back here to have you smile in my fucking face. I want a fucking car RIGHT FUCKING NOW! "
    Just replace the concept of the 'car' with NHL players, and the idea of 'middle of nowhere' with 9th in the West.

  8. Scott says:

    At least we have the rights to our own first rounder this time. Well, so far anyway.

  9. quain says:

    We should not be blaming injuries, but the brass: Oh wait, LT was.

    Exactly. If your NHL opening night roster has guys like Stone, Jacques, Moreau, and Stortini playing prominent roles you're setting yourself up for failure. Those are the guys that should've been playing prominent roles AFTER the injuries. Now we have to go to the well and all that's there is the corpse of Robert Nilsson, an injured Marc Pouliot, and Ryan O'Marra (We swear, he's looking great this year! Honest this time!)

  10. kris says:

    "Those aren't pillows!"

    That isn't relevant to the team -I don't think- but it's a funny bit.

    I can see Renney as the Steve Martin character, John Candy -god love him forever- as Quinn.

  11. hunter1909 says:

    Maybe it's all a complicated plot by Quinn to get Tambellini fired so he can finally take over the team.

    Meanwhile Kevin Lowe sits up two or three nights a week, cracking open Guinness cans and Scotch – at three in the morning.

  12. hunter1909 says:

    Actually that's what I occasionally do, on the principle that there is no worse imaginable time to start boozing than the middle of the night.

    Something about self destruction that holds immense appeal to me.

    Do you think there's any chance I might be allowed to take over the Oilers?

  13. Ribs says:

    Sweet, we're going for Tavares!

    …oh wait…

  14. Steve says:

    I found it kind of cool in 2006-2007 when we had to call up Sebastien Bisaillon from the QMJHL. Just saying.

  15. Phil says:

    Horcoff

    At the end of the highlight package, the Oilers are walking off, and Horcoff hands his stick to the trainer. He's holding his left arm like there is definitely something wrong with it.

  16. Schitzo says:

    I found it kind of cool in 2006-2007 when we had to call up Sebastien Bisaillon from the QMJHL. Just saying.

    Neat, Sebastien Bisaillon's dad posts on Lowetide's blog.

    :D

  17. quain says:

    Yeah, that doesn't look good. Hopefully the fact that he stayed on the bench with it and took a shift is a good sign.

  18. Phil says:

    Because I'm bored at work – it's time to cherry pick stats.

    Oilers with Ryan Stone:

    5-2-1, 29GF, 21GA

    Oilers without Ryan Stone:

    2-5-0, 14GF, 24GA

    Missing Ryan Stone is evidently the issue here.

  19. raventalon40 says:

    If the Oilers send out Nilsson and others when guys return from injury, reclaiming Schremp off waivers is not such a bad idea (for budgeting considerations alone, he makes less money than Nilsson)

  20. Satisfied_to_Ignore says:

    I know he brings a lot, and does a lot and we don't really have anyone to replace him, but isn't it just common sense that if he is hurt it would be better for him to take the time off and get better? We aren't winning with him playing hurt, so get some other guys the minutes, tough draws, tough assignments and sit Horcoff down.

  21. Bruce says:

    It reminds me of the scene, in Planes Trains and Automobiles, between Steve Martin and the car rental agent:
    "And I really don't care for the way your company left me in the middle of fucking nowhere with fucking keys to a fucking car that isn't fucking there. And I really didn't care to fucking walk down a fucking highway and across a fucking runway to get back here to have you smile in my fucking face. I want a fucking car RIGHT FUCKING NOW! "

    B.C.B. Don't forget the punch line, courtesy the car rental agent:

    "You're fucked!"

  22. uni says:

    So it looks right now like Boston has Taylor Hall locked up, so who's good at 2nd for the Oilers?

  23. Ribs says:

    Simon Gagne's out for 20 games…Maybe he can be picked up and we can look forward to next season.

    Man, am I seriously talking next season already? I'll take some deep breaths and start thinking of some positives…nevermind me…

  24. hunter1909 says:

    I'm excited about this team.

  25. kris says:

    You know, the more and more I think of it, the trade for POS was terrible.

    Don't get me wrong, POS might still turn out well, and he's been getting shots and chances. And Cole had a terrible run here and afterwards.

    But we had an asset in Cole that could've bought something we needed. And the one thing we didn't need was another smurf.

    At least with Cole in the lineup, we had a chance at a nice of balance of skill-size and age-youth.

    Penner-Horcoff-Hemsky
    Cogs/Poo/Comrie-Gagner-Cole

    I think BDHS has it right -I think he's said this- that management has made some nice trades to bring in good players, and each trade -looked at individually- is fine, but -taken as a whole- the trades we've made make it look like management has no clue about what the team needs.

  26. Steve says:

    But we had an asset in Cole that could've bought something we needed.

    What do you think twenty games of an impending UFA having a sub-par season could have bought us, given that, as a non-playoff team, a different impending UFA would have done us no good? Especially given there's no reason to believe anybody but Carolina would have given up any real value for him?

    Patrick O'Sullivan didn't exactly address a need, but I think he's positive value in 2009-2010. Erik Cole wouldn't have been, because he'd have been playing for Carolina.

  27. GSC says:

    If I wanted a joke, I'd follow you into the john and watch you take a leak. Now are you gonna help me or are you gonna stand there like a slab of meat with mittens?

    Classic.

  28. bookie says:

    reclaiming Schremp off waivers is not such a bad idea

    Yes, I agree. Speaking of which I also think that sticking your hand in a blender and peeing on electric fences is a good idea…

  29. Steven says:

    link to the brownlee story?

  30. bookie says:

    Any chance that those of you writing the '29th place' obituary of the team were planning a Stanley Cup parade last week, or are you only melodramatic on the negative side?

  31. Lowetide says:

    bookie: Please, please show me where I was speaking about this team and a Stanley Cup parade. I beg you.

  32. Woodguy says:

    Did the Ole Timey Coach have dark hair when he started here?

    He's on record saying that (paraphrased) "The center position is where you want most of your experience, forwards can come and go, but the center is the key guy on the ice"

    If 10 is on the shelf, the Oiler centers by experience:

    Comrie – 535 NHL games
    Cogliano – 179 NHL games
    Gagner – 170 NHL games
    Brule – 169 NHL games

    By contrast, the Flames

    Langkow – 953 NHL games
    Conroy – 940 NHL games
    Jokinen – 811 NHL games
    Boyd – 143 NHL games

    Nope, no holes on the Oiler roster worth filling.

    Thanks Tamblowe!!

    Can the Oilers hire a pragmatic Alberta farm boy too?

    Can the Oilers hire a pragmatic anything?

  33. kris says:

    Steve,

    I must've been unclear.

    I'm saying we could've got a lesser player that the club could've used more, and that would've been a good thing. (I agree that POS was good value)

    Now, the mere fact that we got POS and a second (flipped for Kotalik), showed that Cole had some value.

    And POS was good return, great return maybe, but not what the team needs.

    A crude analogy: If we went out and traded Pisani (pending UFA, injuries, fading play) for a Sykora-type player with a year or two left on his deal, I might say it was a great return, but not what we need right now. (Not unless it was done in conjunction with some other deals.)

    The Oilers have lots of talent on the club and lots of young guys playing or coming down the pipeline. Now is the time to start making trades, maybe giving up a little youth and skilll -not all of it mind you- to get grittier and more defensively responsible.

    Move at least one of:
    POS, Cogliano

    and Nilsson (or waive him)

    And use one of:
    Grebs, Gilbert

    to buy something(s) we really need.

    Buy a 3rd pairing D-man or two and a good solid forward who is reasonably defensively responsible:

    Suppose you dump POS and Grebs (should get decent return…)

    Without injuries you get:

    Penner-Horcoff-Hemsky
    Cogliano-Gagner-Pisani
    ForwardX-Pouliot-Stone
    Moreau-Brule-Stortini
    Comrie,Jacques

    Vis.-Smid
    Gilbert-Souray
    Staios-Good 3rd Pairing Guy
    Strudwick

    I might package some youth/picks for one more forward too, even a poor-ish Brodziak-type, especially given the injuries.

    That's a playoff team. Staios and the new D-man see some time in the top 4, which sucks, but Grebs isn't exactly out defending a whole lot of NHL defenseman lately.

  34. uni says:

    You know, the more and more I think of it, the trade for POS was terrible.

    That was a good trade, don't forget it was Patty O' and a 2nd round pick, which the Oilers flipped for 20 games of Kotalik.

    Essentially O'Sullivan and Kotalik for Cole, although I'd rather they had kept the pick and drafted someone. You know like even that reach prospect Kruger.

  35. kris says:

    Sorry,

    I mean use Grebs to buy a forward and a 3rd pairing guy and POS to buy another forward.

    Waive Nilsson.

    That's a lot of salary out, so you should be able to take a little in, too.

    The key is to buy depth, responsible D play, and some guys closer to their prime.

    That shouldn't be a hard trade, because you're selling more skilled players and getting back less skilled players.

  36. CrazyCoach says:

    Phil you have an eye for detail. Sadly I've seen that arm position all too many times. Players who hurt their shoulders hold it in two positions: One bent over slightly and letting the arm hang down and the other, like Horcoff, standing upright and pressing your hand into your chest.

    Not a good sign at all.

  37. PDO says:

    Sweet, lottery time.

    Even better that the guy who did it should have probably still been in the box for his first head hunting incident followed by a sweet crosscheck to Jacques face.

  38. SK Oiler Fan says:

    If Horc and Souray are out for any length of time this team is FKD.

    Tambo, start dumping some salary allready! There's just no cap flexibility to make changes.

    If Horc and Souray are out we need to start preparing ourselves for another development year, and that's fine with me because even this team healthy wasn't much better than a 50/50 shot to make the show.

  39. quain says:

    Any chance that those of you writing the '29th place' obituary of the team were planning a Stanley Cup parade last week, or are you only melodramatic on the negative side?

    So, essentially, your belief is any and all worry about the future of this season is negated unless you were suckered into believing that the Oilers were going to score on 20% of their shots into infinity?

  40. PDO says:

    Good news:

    Moreau and Staios should both be able to be moved at the deadline fairly easily.

    Hell, with the auctioning that usually goes on we might even get something valuable back.

    Oilers should specifically be looking for youngish cheap veterans. Guys like Bourque, Glencross, Hejda.. you know, guys that can likely be picked up for a song, but can skate, have some size, are tough on the puck and can be signed to value contracts…

  41. dubya says:

    I kinda hope he's out for a bit, it will answer some questions. I've been really unimpressed with his offense, but acknowledge his zone-start, faceoffs, and matchups make him valuable. Still, he's been underwhelming and in his absence we will see:

    (a) that he is as indispensable as most of you feel, and we will get crushed due to a lack of "real NHLers" playing centre ice

    or

    (b) Somebody, anybody, or a group of players will step up and do more with some of Horc's minutes, and perhaps show that Horc's lack of offense is part of the problem, good defense aside.

    With (a), we're on the way to a good draft pick, likely some management changes, and a real rebuild, which is good. With (b), maybe we find that someone else can handle some of Horc's load while providing more offense. I'm having trouble with the argument about Horc's "established level of offensive production," because to me he no longer looks like that player. I know "saw him bad" doesn't get much traction 'round here, but to me he looks slower, lacking in confidence, is very poor at making and taking a pass, and has developed an over-reliance on a mediocre shot (that he generally one-times while gliding backwards away from the net at an increasing angle). I almost hope it's (a) since I will feel a lot better about his contract if he proves that vital.

  42. SK Oiler Fan says:

    If in fact Horc's shoulder is FKD again there's going to be even more media/fans raging about the "7 Million Dollar Man"

    However, even the most staunch and educated Horc supporters around here have to be worried about the remainder of his contract if his shoulder is in fact FKD again.

    Horc hasn't been the same since his shoulder surgery so obviously another shoulder injury would really put the remainder of his contract into question.

  43. bookie says:

    Please, please show me where I was speaking about this team and a Stanley Cup parade. I beg you.

    LT – Not targeting you with that at all – I think you have been pretty conistant in your views.

    I just think that comments like "So it looks right now like Boston has Taylor Hall locked up, so who's good at 2nd for the Oilers?" are a litte mellodramatic.

  44. St George says:

    In response to the brutal play and questionof Horcoff's health, the Oilers marketing/pr folks release this:

    http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=504410&cmpid=oilers-twt-nhl_oilers

    An update on who is winning the mustache-growing contest.

    It sort of reminds me of Cuba or North Korea, where they try to take people's minds off the fact that they are starving to death by celebrating rediculous accomplishments of the state. Good work, Oilers PR.

  45. bookie says:

    - to follow up – if Horc is seriously hurt (along with Souray) this team could tumble a few spots. I guess if your pre-season pick was 22nd, then a drop to 29th may not be unreasonable. I just don't think that the Oilers are the worst (or the worst managed) team in the NHL.

  46. quain says:

    Horcoff has actually been closer to the original version of himself since he got away from JFJ. If you just look at the underlying stats since the Minnesota game, they look pretty good (compared to the rest of the team):

    SF/SA%: 94.7% (3rd Among Fs)
    Corsi%: 89.5% (3rd)

    He's getting killed by the on-ice SH% (and we'll just all agree to disagree about what drives that).

    Also, it would obviously be great if his above percentages were above 100, but it's important to remember that having players up and down the lineup who can't move the puck forward just creates a vortex of depth for everyone.

    If Stortini's line gets a neutral zone draw and then gets hemmed in the next line gets their Corsi crushed as well because they've still got to dig out of that hole. Horcoff obviously takes a large portion of that pain (which keeps his Corsi hurting), but it impacts everyone's scoring.

    This team, up and down the line-up, needs players who get the puck in the offensive zone, even if it just creates a muffin save (Sully), as long as they can get it there it helps the team.

    This team had more players who could do that kind of thing in 07-08 and they still got crushed with Horcoff out. It's not going to be better this year.

  47. Lowetide says:

    bookie: Completely my bad. I misread your original post. Sorry about that.

  48. dubya says:

    In response to the brutal play and questionof Horcoff's health, the Oilers marketing/pr folks release this:

    http://oilers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=504410&cmpid=oilers-twt-nhl_oilers

    An update on who is winning the mustache-growing contest.

    It sort of reminds me of Cuba or North Korea, where they try to take people's minds off the fact that they are starving to death by celebrating rediculous accomplishments of the state. Good work, Oilers PR.

    Jeez, don't they know the whole world is ending? How insensitive, talking about things like fundraising when they could be lamenting their level of suck or giving us vague comments on player injuries. :)

  49. Greg MC says:

    Things aren't looking too promising in Oilerland right now.

    Injuries, illnesses, lack of talent all piling on to create compost.

    I was optomistic that this team, with a couple of holes filled, could move up in the standings compared to their recent history.

    Now, not so much….

  50. Traktor says:

    This thread needs more 15-3-1.

  51. Greg MC says:

    How about supplying the team with C10H15N?

  52. Steve says:

    I'm saying we could've got a lesser player that the club could've used more, and that would've been a good thing. (I agree that POS was good value)

    Probably you're right that we could have gotten a lesser player who'd have helped the team more. But if that's the case, why not take O'Sullivan and flip him? I have to think his value on the trade market was higher than Cole's, and I have a hard time imagining anything useful in the present tense that we could have gotten for Cole that we couldn't get for O'Sullivan.

    The followup to the O'Sullivan trade was terrible, which is why we're now down to zero reliable centres and sixty-three smurfs in scoring slumps. But I think you make the Cole-O'Sullivan trade ten times out of ten.

  53. Dennis says:

    SK: count me among that group of strong 10 supporters who now worry about his long term viability.

    I've been saying the same things about 44 so I'm not going to be a hypocrite about it: there are guys who either put themselves in positions to get hurt or who just have bad luck and I don't want to have money tied up in either of those groups.

    In any case, I used to get a lot more upset about this stuff but the truth is that the Oil went into this season so fucking thin at pivot that they were always one situation away from being exposed and at some point you just throw up your hands.

    Like I said earlier this season, in a way the Oilers have beaten me down to the point where I don't expect much from them.

    I did geek out in that comeback win vs CBJ and I'd really love to get back fully on board but when you don't expect anything from someone or some organization in this situation, it's hard to say you're really let down anymore.

    In the meantime, yes, this becomes the ultimate moratorium on just how much the Oil need this guy and/or will miss him.

  54. jon k says:

    Phil: The funny thing is that your comparison merely demonstrates the difference in this team when healthy and when not healthy.

    With Stone, Staios, and Souray healthy this team is a lot more physical and not surprisingly is a lot more stable on the backend.

    This team will be fine if it can get healthy or make moves to address the deficiencies on the back end. One of the puck movers should be swapped for a more rounded defender who tends more to safety than sizzle.

    It goes without saying that a veteran centre would also still help.

  55. Icecastles says:

    Phil you have an eye for detail. Sadly I've seen that arm position all too many times.

    You guys are overreacting. He was clearly just holding a kitten.

  56. CrazyCoach says:

    Ice Castles, wow, that should win him a humanitarian award from the SPCA alone.

    I stand corrected.

  57. Black Dog says:

    Nicely done icecastles.

  58. Bruce says:

    I'll take Zorg against the field in the 'stache growing contest. Even money that he'll have more facial hair than the other 6 guys combined.

    Even better that the guy who did it should have probably still been in the box for his first head hunting incident followed by a sweet crosscheck to Jacques face.

    PDO: I was upset about that last night and remain upset today. I saw the replay — not the ebst angle, but enough to confirm what I thought I saw on the shitty feed last night — and JFJ did move in and maybe he did indeed warrant an instigator. That said, my defintion of an instigator is usually a guy who gets the first shot in, who jumps the other guy before he's ready, and Sutton was all too ready with two handsful of lumber. At the very very least he should have got two for crosschecking to neutralize the manpower situation for the instigator call. Instead he got his shot in at Gilbert, another free cheapshot at JFJ, and his team got the powerplay. There's something wrong with that. Add the fact that he has now added Horcoff to his growing list of Oilers he's put out and I am not a happy camper.

    The penalty calls would not have changed the outcome of last night's game, which was never my point. The situation just offends my sense of justice, is all.

    Never did see a replay of the hit that hurt Horc. Was it clean?

  59. Kenny Powers says:

    Bruce: It looked eerily similar to the hit on Gilbert. It was the same side of the ice, and Horcoff was being guided by the back-checking forward. It was just inside the blueline rather than outside, but other than that, same hit.

  60. Dennis says:

    I didn't mind the instigator penalty for 22 but why did they nail him with the 10 min misconduct? That was fuckery as far as I was concerned.

    Phil: getting 24-44 back would help with the backend but there's no one on the current roster who can come close to replicating 10's skill set so we're fucked either way, I believe.

    BTW, look at what the Flames did!

    http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/29050-Premier-orders-probe-after-Calgary-Flames-score-flu-shots-while-public-waits.html

  61. Kenny Powers says:

    Dennis: That's a new rule (I think it was a post-lockout rule, but it could even just been new last year):

    http://www.nhl.com/rules/rule56.html

    Any instigator automatically results in a minor and a 10 minute misconduct.

  62. Dennis says:

    KP: I can't believe I didn't know that before.

    Kids, watch your binge drinking;)

  63. Kenny Powers says:

    Yeah, and it's a bullshit rule that doesn't get nearly enough negative press as far as i'm concerned.

    The league (aka Mr. Bettman) wants the rule called more and I'd be fine with it if it was just the 2, but an automatic period worth of pims is just too much imo.

  64. Bruce says:

    Yeah the rule is 2, 5 and 10, but last time I checked there was also a rule against crosschecking to the face. Which is what it sure looked like Sutton did to Jacques. Knocked JFJ right down, he had to scramble back up to duke it out.

  65. Chateau la Puck says:

    Regarding O'Sullivan.

    He has had a lot of boosters around these parts (including, but not only, LT), who have sometimes seemed hesitant to explain their love of/faith in this guy.

    I said at the time of the deal that it looked on the surface too good to be true, that Lombardi is no dummy, and therefore that there was something the rest of us were not seeing and the deal had to be viewed principally as a salary dump from the Kings' perspective.

    Someone tell me something to convince me that's wrong. $2.9M is a lot of scratch for a guy who has shown what this guy has shown since joining us.

  66. Doogie2K says:

    The 2-5-10 has existed a lot longer than the post-lockout era, IIRC. In fact, wasn't it 2-5-Game when it was first implemented?

  67. Smarmy Boss says:

    Dennis I think it might be time for you to move Lowe's moniker "Warm Hands" and bestow it on Tambo. He's doing a great impersonation of Nero at the moment.

    I just wish the organization would quit this holding pattern and chose a path to take the franchise.

    I used to really enjoy reading forums about the Oilers. The last four or so years it's just been something to kill the time at work.

  68. hunter1909 says:

    The team looked totally fucked, doomed, whatever.

    Back to the Oilers I've been watching for the past 18, 19 seasons, lmao.

  69. Bar Qu says:

    Apparently Gregor has deduced that the Oilers simply need to score more to win hockey games.

    If only Kevin Lowe and Tambellini had found that magical top 6'r to play on this team, then there would be no problems left.

    It couldn't be the defensive leakage from 3/4 of the players that is actually hurting them, could it? I'm sure it's the fact that Horcoff hasn't scored 10 goals yet too!

  70. Bruce says:

    Chateau la Puck: I have the exact same issue with POS, it's not the player per se, it's value for money. Sure the deal was 20 games of Cole for 2 years + 20 games of POS, and that looks great on the surface, but in the cap era expiring contracts aren't all bad and having guys under lock and key for awhile isn't all good. The guy needs to produce something close to commensurate with his pay scale, and ideally he complements rather than replicates the other assets on the roster.

  71. hunter1909 says:

    Getting a chance to study the Oilers during the last few seasons out east, I really hate to say this, but the MacT team always gave a great account of themselves out here.

    So much so that I always liked to think they could move to the SE division.

    Poor Quinn, and poor us fans. We're in for a long first half of the season, then, making my fearless predictions, I absolutely expect to have a semblence of a team ready able and capable of making a serious playoff push, starting from the halfway mark.

    The next 25 games however, are going to be a stale cheese sandwich.

  72. Jfry says:

    i think POS's upside was supposed to be that he played all forward positions, could PK and took a ton of shots, which made one/some of the smurfs disposable and to be put into a trade.

    Thing is, no trade happened and now it just seems that we have another bad fit and duplication. It's actually amazing how tight we are to the cap, given what we could have picked up the last couple of summers for 600k-1.3m.

    I like Holland's strategy of Eaves, Williams and the 'Tuz, for 3 million a lot more than POS for 2.9. If we're junk coming home, I hope Tamblowe dumps as much contract weight as possible to finally open up some flexibility.

  73. Bruce says:

    I like Holland's strategy of Eaves, Williams and the 'Tuz, for 3 million a lot more than POS for 2.9.

    Jfry: Agreed, not on the Buttugly part of the equation, but in principle. The player is under the microscope for his performance, but his contract and value-for-money is all on management. Why tie yourself up for another two-year commitment when you're already tight to the cap, unless the new guy brings stuff you need and don't already have.

  74. Black Dog says:

    Ah fellows why so glum?

    Oh right. They're shit.

    Again.

  75. Black Dog says:

    It could be worse of course.

    'Canada's Team' is just about to hit the ice. Forty two years without even a trip to the Final.

    And Richard Peddie, when asked the other day about ticket resellers getting a fraction of face value, says 'well we're selling out every game'.

    What an asshole.

  76. Lowetide says:

    They're 6 minutes into Kessel's Leaf career and he hasn't scored a goal.

    Bad trade.

  77. Woodguy says:


    I like Holland's strategy of Eaves, Williams and the 'Tuz, for 3 million a lot more than POS for 2.9.

    Its actually 3.5.

    Eaves 500K
    Williams 1.5M
    Berdouchbag 1.5M

    Let's look at their 5v5 GF/A per 60 along with QualComp/Team differential (Qual Comp – Qual Team)

    Eaves +3.13 and -1.28 QualC/T – good value, although he has good team mates and playing the dregs (actually Eaves has the lowest (most favorable QC-QT number I have seen, although I have only looked hard at about 100 of them)

    Williams -1.17 and -0.885 so he's sucking while playing 3rd liners with 4th liners…yawn

    Berdouchebag -2.40 and +0.221 So he's playing toughish comp with decent players, but he's losing because he should have retired 3 years ago.

    For the record:

    Patio Furniture -0.31 and +0.329 Not quite above water playing toughish comp with less than toughish players.

    I agree that Furniture isn't worth 2.9 Cap, but I'll reserve judgement until game 40. Some nights I like what I see, some night…not so much, but he's playing all over the place (position, teammates, qualcomp) so hopefully he can fall into a role and re-evaluate there.

    I went through this exercise because I'm not buying into Holland=Genius.

    He has done some very good things, most notably signing very good NHL players at lowish contracts because they like playing for winner and living in Bloomfield (one of the nicest places to live in the US, don't be fooled it ain't Detroit).

    They also drafted in later rounds very well.

    So did Barry Fraser, how does everyone feel about him?

    I don't believe the Holland hype.

    He does a lot f things well, like make players learn the game in the AHL instead of the NHL, but he has also had the roster that afforded him that luxury.

    The Wings remind me of the Oilers of the 80's, a lot of really, really, really good luck in player procurement then everyone baptized a genius.

    The proof is in the next 3 years for the Wings. If they can maintain, then they are the best organization in hockey. Until then, I'm reserving judgment, and withholding adoration of Holland.

    I had some beers after work. Can you tell?

    :-)

    Berdouchebag is terrible.

    That is all.

  78. melman says:

    How is it possible for an organization with former NHL players and the amount of mgmt experience they have in place enter BACK to BACK seasons with 1 proven centre. Maybe POS would have a bit more impact if we had signed a Lang or Betts, etc. instead of Comrie – a clear repeat of existing roster players. In the cap world i agree that relief from a bad contract ie. Nilsson is as valuable as the pick/player you get in return.

  79. Woodguy says:

    How is it possible for an organization with former NHL players and the amount of mgmt experience they have in place enter BACK to BACK seasons with 1 proven centre

    Lowe is great at getting defencemen. He was a defenceman.

    Not sure what Tambellni is good at yet (if anything), but he played LW.

    Maybe they think C is over rated?

    I dunno, it defies description. How do you not address a massive hole on the team?

    Maybe there was a deal/FA Center signing behind the Heatley deal as Cogliano was involved, and it just all went to shit.

    Lowe played with some of the best players of all time when he played.

    Tambellini bounced from one team to another, never really sticking in one place.

    Maybe their playing experience is a hindrance and not a help given their NHL careers?

    Lowe never struggled (outside the first few years here), Tambellini was never in a city long enough to see progression.

    Nobody gave Tambellini the keys to the parents car until Lowe hired him.

    I liked the Heatley move at the time (wouldn't do it now unless OTT added Volchenkov), so I don't think he's unable.

    Maybe he has Lowekatz Whalehunting disease.

    This disease creates the inability to create offensive by swinging at hittable pitches for singles while swinging for the fence at the hard low breaking ball.

  80. Bruce says:

    I agree that Furniture isn't worth 2.9 Cap, but I'll reserve judgement until game 40. Some nights I like what I see, some night…not so much, but he's playing all over the place (position, teammates, qualcomp) so hopefully he can fall into a role and re-evaluate there.

    Woodguy: That is fair comment. That identical statement could have been applied to Dustin Penner last season, and by the 40-game mark he was posting some pretty strong underliers that convinced at least some of us that he was worth at least part of his contract.

    My preference for POS or Penner or anybody is to judge the player and the contract separately, with the latter coming at least partially on the GM's rap sheet. Like LT, I quite often like a player and not the contract, whereas others have trouble disentangling the two. An overpaid player can nonetheless help the team.

    Berdouchebag is terrible.

    On this we entirely agree. Buttugly is brutal. Just throws the puck away, and takes stupid penalties 175 feet from his own net. Taking an old saw and adjusting for inflation: ten million dollar body, loonie head. :)

  81. knighttown says:

    The proof is in the next 3 years for the Wings. If they can maintain, then they are the best organization in hockey.

    You sir, are a hard man to impress.

    -18 years straight in the playoffs (best streak in all sports)
    -4 Cups in 14 years
    -6 president's trophys in 14 years
    -6 "pennants" in 14 years
    -9 straight seasons over 100 points
    -8 division titles in a row

    You're still not convinced they are the best organization in hockey? Here are some monumental moments that point to their genius (if that word can ever be applied to a hockey team):

    -reading global politics (fall of the Berlin Wall) and conventional hockey wisdom ("In those days a lot of hockey people shared that prejudice. The Russians and Czechs were Communists. The Swedes were chickens. What are they going to do when they get punched in the face? Even I was asking that question."-Smith) in order to have (arguably) the greatest draft in NHL history (Lidstrom, Fedorov, Konstantinov, Drake, Sillinger, Boughner). They almost got Pavel Bure too, that year.

    -employing the greatest Euro scout of them all in Hakan Andersson. He's discovered Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Kronwall, Franzen, Filpulla, Hudler and Ericsson just in the past decade or so.

    -taking the much mocked DiPietro "loophole" contract and understanding the potential as a cap cheater to get both Z and Datsyuk signed for reasonable average cap hits. Now everyone (except the Oilers) are doing it.

    The Red Wings could go 0-246 over the next three years and still be the best organization in hockey.

  82. Jfry says:

    I don't necessarily mean those three Detroit players in particular, or that the strategy is necessarily unique to Holland. or that holland is brilliant…i was just using it as an easy example.

    I think a lot of GMs take advantage of it. Seems like Pitts is running a lot of filler through every year. Boston is doing the same this year. etc.

    Knowing what we know about summers now, I'd rather turn POS into some draft picks and a veteran 6D…for 2.9, this summer we could have had mohaltra, betts, conklin and most of martin skoula, or those trees.

    Next summer is going to be the same, so let's get prepared to take advantage. The year to year with Grebs has been an interesting case to follow.

  83. Rick says:

    Kris:

    Any team with Pisani on the 2nd line isn't a playoff team unless the 3rd & 4th liners are filling the net with pucks.

    I agree that a move must be made, but now isn't the time. Unfortunately, the Oilers record will fall more until we get to that time, which is when Souray and Staios are healthy and we can deal a top-4 defender.

    Also, I don't see other teams chomping at the bit to add one of our "smurfs"…

  84. uni says:

    I just think that comments like "So it looks right now like Boston has Taylor Hall locked up, so who's good at 2nd for the Oilers?" are a litte.

    Bookie: It's called a joke, not everything in life is serious or melodrama. That was also a thinly veiled jibe at Brian Burke because I don't see the Leafs finishing last overall.

    I would think you'd have a sense of humour if you've followed the Oilers for the last decade or so too. People need to lighten up a bit.

  85. Woodguy says:

    KT:

    I'm prone to hyperbole when drinking.

    There is no question they are a good organization, and one of the best in hockey, but I have a hard time bestowing accolades given this:

    Red Wing Player Salary vs. NHL average

    98/99 48.3 – 29.7
    99/00 43.4 – 31.3
    00/01 55.1 – 33.3
    01/02 66.6 – 38.0
    02/03 68.4 – 41.9
    03/04 77.8 – 44.4

    Money doesn't automatically make you better at your job. Just ask Glen Sather and Bobby Clarke.

    But what the ability to spend over 50% more than the league average is a huge advantage. If you are a smart hockey person it can be a devastating advantage.

    If you are spending 50% more than the average and 1/2 the teams make the playoffs, you better make the playoff every year.

    The key components of their roster were there pre-lock out. As age and attrition removes those players, we will see exactly what the Red Wings are made of.

    Maybe they are that good.

    Maybe the pizza dough gave a huge advantage to good (but not great) hockey people.

    Barry Fraser was a genius once too.

    I'm prone to hyperbole when hung over too I guess. :-)

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