Tracers

It’s always fun to look back in time. This is Vancouver (Gastown) maybe 50 years ago (I can’t really put a date on it, feel free to tell me if you know) and the subject today is familiar but distant too: the crazy expansion era decisions made by the NHL and its member teams.

This is Mike Nykoluk (someone put color into photo, God bless you). He was traded to Hershey by the Leafs at age 23 (1958) and never left during a playing career that ended 1,000 AHL games later in 1972. In 1967, the year of the great expansion, Nykoluk won the AHL MVP award on the strength of an 84 point season and a league leading 68 assists. He was a PP wizard, considered a quality 2-way center and expert faceoff man. The faceoff abilities and PP prowess were major contributors is his being chosen by Philadelphia’s Fred Shero as the first assistant coach in NHL history in 1972. He was there for the Stanley’s, then moved to NYC and eventually won a head coaching job in Toronto.

My interest at this time is Nykoluk as a player in 1967. He was MVP of a very good league–the AHL at that time would have been the direct supplier of talent to an NHL that employed just over 100 players at any given time. Nykoluk belonged to Hershey, and the Bears were free to trade or keep him just like they were an NHL team: they were not a farm team. An expansion team could have traded for him, but the Flyers and Kings had purchased entire minor league teams and the other 4 were focused on figuring out what they had from the expansion draft. A team like Oakland was ill equipped to make the kind of deal that was typical (Eddie Giacomin for 5 guys) in that era for an NHL-to-AHL swap.

For Nykoluk, it meant NHL opportunity was unavailable. It also meant that the new NHL teams–6 of them–hired 18 or so centers that summer and at least some of them would have been inferior to Nykoluk. Those first expansion teams had little offense and were dull as dishwater, the numbers suggest Nykoluk could have helped someone even if it was for a year or two.

Nykoluk probably doesn’t give a damn, he had a great time in Hershey.

You know, maybe he was so slow it wouldn’t have worked, but even then that doesn’t make sense because they were using ancients like Doug Harvey in the late 60′s expansion division. 68 assists in the 66-67 AHL should have given him a nice number in the new expansion division of the NHL. It’s just that it is so stupid. The NHL and organized hockey must have been run by idiots. And there are other examples, like the NHL’s insane 1-3, 2-4 playoff seedings (finishing first got you the third place team and finishing 2nd was best spot) but that’s more about teams and this is about the individual.

Nykoluk was 31 at the beginning of the 66-67 season. He won the MVP award and should have had (at the very least) an invite to a training camp for one of the expansion teams.

He didn’t get the chance. Idiotic.

I wonder if  people will look back on some of the NHL decisions of this era and say the same thing 50 years from now.

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45 Responses to "Tracers"

  1. Woodguy says:

    Intuitively you’d think a 30 team league in an era where the ability to gather massive amounts of data is not difficult that less players “just don’t get a break”

    That being said, Potter stands before us saying its true.

    If I had the keys to an NHL team and a very big budget, I’d make sure that my organization was gathering all the stats possible on every AHL player. Maybe the KHL and SEL too, but AHL for sure.

    Past TOI, and other box cars, you’d want all the possession metrics, battles won/lost. Passes given/taken, etc.

    I know that some teams do that already (Sharks for sure, must be others)

    I don’t think the Oilers do.

    If we are to believe what they showed us on Oilchange, the Oilers Head Professional Scout quickly looks at Games Played by Belanger , and NHL player with reams of data on his play available, to get a read on him hours before they sign him to a 3 year contract.

    I’m not sure how much stock to put into that little vignette that they showed, but it sure doesn’t inspire confidence.

    You read about NHL teams having “War Rooms”, where they list the depth charts of every NHL and AHL team in order of who they like best when they need a quick read on a situation.

    For some reason I think the Oiler’s War Room consists of pictures of Lowe with the Cup from the 80′s, some pancake syrup, Tambellini’s “Evaluation/Nap” cot, and stale pot of coffee.

  2. TheOtherJohn says:

    WG

    Do not want to be rude but how many Stanley Cup rings do you have? None …… Quit criticizing K Lowe and this organization until you do!! LOL

  3. rickithebear says:

    John: i wonder if those tools realize Lowe did not draft himself.

  4. hunter1909 says:

    “but it sure doesn’t inspire confidence”.

    This kind of thinking is precisely the reason oilers are in 29th place.

  5. LMHF#1 says:

    LT – not sure if Terry Jones spoke about it on the radio show, but very interesting to hear that Linus has spent his injury time gooning up in the gym and shooting hundreds of pucks a day.

    Competitor, fearless, wants to win like crazy, clearly loves the game, newly discovered gym rat. How can you not think this guy will succeed? I know you and I are on the same page there.

  6. knighttown says:

    I wonder if people will look back on some of the NHL decisions of this era and say the same thing 50 years from now.

    There are decisions that are controversial because some people like them and some don’t. These are things like the shootout and these things don’t bother me cause you aren’t going to please everyone.

    Then there are these mathematical decisions like that 1 vs. 3 and 2 vs. 4 scenario. There isn’t a “pros and cons” of this decision. There is no possible way to justify it. The recent version of this for me is the Bettman point. When the league is considering a rule change the first non-negotiable has to be “all games must have the same value”. After that, sure, be creative.

    They decision that then must be pro/conned is do you want to award a point to the team that loses in overtime. If you do not, then the two-point game is fine. If you do, you must now make all games worth 3 points. 3 for a clear-day win, 2 for an OT win, 1 for an OT loss and zero for a clear-day loss. This isn’t optional…it has to be.

    But it isn’t…

  7. hunter1909 says:

    I suppose one tracer for this current “management” will be if they end up trading Gagner away, in yet another attempt to elevate Shawn Horcoff to full time second line status.

    Then everyone can hope Gagner’s terrible on the new club, and other stuff.

    Trade Gagner = add another three years to the rebuild?

  8. Jordan says:

    hunter1909: I suppose one tracer for this current “management” will be if they end up trading Gagner away, in yet another attempt to elevate Shawn Horcoff to full time second line status.Then everyone can hope Gagner’s terrible on the new club, and other stuff.Trade Gagner = add another three years to the rebuild?

    Have to agree with you hunter – there’s no value in trading him away. Too young, too much upside, and too much progress facing better and better competition with similar results.

    TheOtherJohn: WGDo not want to be rude but how many Stanley Cup rings do you have? None …… Quit criticizing K Lowe and this organization until you do!! LOL

    It’s funny because it’s so depressing that the only thing a person can do to not cry is laugh.

    God, do I long for a day when we value a GM not by how many stanley cup rings they had as a player, but by how well they manage their team and by their ability to consistently contend for/win championships.

  9. bookje says:

    WG – I once saw a documentary on top poker players and what was interesting was how different various top players were in their approaches to the game. Some players were like Human Computers who could spit out exact odds for each situation they saw and others fully relied upon intuitive processes – meaning that they basically went with ‘gut instincts’. In evaluating hockey players, I imagine that in addition to the numbers, there are a lot of other factors that come into it. I imagine scouts intuitively factor things in such as the coach-player situation that a prospect is in. So, you might find a gem of a player who is in a coaching regime that doesn’t suit their strengths. Some individuals ‘calculate’ a lot of that type of information using intuitive processes, meaning thinking processes that they are not aware of. Given that they are not aware of those internal thinking processes, they cannot enunciate them, so they say something like – “My gut tells me that Belanger will do well here”.

    Anyway, this is not to suggest that using stats of all kinds is not a valuable tool and I think that all NHL teams should have a small team of statistic’s junkies there to provide that perspective, but there is room for intuition as well. Individuals who rely upon more intuition can be very effective, particularly when the variables are complex (as they always are in the real world). In both cases (rational statistical evaluation or intuition), it needs to be about results. If a scout or GM has demonstrated a record of success and their trajectory is good, then give them the keys to the organization and let them go with it. I would suggest that if Steve Tambellini has been trying to pick good players, then he has done quite poorly. Stu’s record remains up for debate.

  10. Mr DeBakey says:

    Trade Gagner = add another three years to the rebuild?

    I was thinking about that in relation to the Peckham thread yesterday.
    Move Peckham, keep Teubert,.
    Lose 125 NHL games hoping to find a better physical, third pairing defenseman.
    So, why not move Teubert, keep Peckham?

    I know, waivers.

  11. Wolfpack says:

    Interesting how the players union has changed the whole silly-decisions dynamic as well (realignment). The politics are still there, just different dynamics today.

    I watched Moneyball on the weekend and loved the scenes with the old-school scouts and how they eveluate players. “His girlfriend is only a 6, that shows he lacks confidence”. I was laughing out loud, but crying on the inside because part of me is afraid the Oilers war-room is a lot like that, and there is no Billy Beane bringing some semblence of sanity to the situation.

    “I like Barker, he has a strong jaw. Looks like a player”.

    Cringe.

  12. DSF says:

    Tim Gleason signs a 4 year, $16M contract extension with Carolina.

  13. FastOil says:

    Woodguy,

    WG a close friend (who isn’t into sports) mentioned to me by chance not long ago that the OIlers collect stats. He was talking about having dinner with a guy involved with it somehow, my friend having no idea how that would pique my interest. It makes sense, Tambellini did come from the Canucks org who try to be innnovative and gain advantage wherever they can.

    What they look at and how much they utilize it is of course a different story. I highly doubt it’s Desjardin somehow. I don’t see much evidence on the roster of advanced stats in play ;)

  14. voxwah says:

    GenePrincipe: Ales Hemsky-Andy Sutton to Det.for Tomas Jurco and 1st round pick. Hemsky and pick to Nash.for Jonathan Blum and 1st round pick #justrumors

    Interesting deals. Both sound pretty good. I’d hate to see Hemsky go butting getting Blum and a 1st is a good return.

    I’d turn around and flip the Nashville pick to Carolina for a signed Tuomo Ruutu.

    Blum and Ruutu for Hemsky would be pretty good.

  15. Matt F says:

    Re: your concluding sentence:

    It is extremely probable that we have overlooked some whole aspect of the question, if something set up by human beings like ourselves seems to be entirely meaningless and mysterious. There are reformers who get over this difficulty by assuming that all their fathers were fools; but if that be so, we can only say that folly appears to be a hereditary disease.

    Chesterton. Man, I love that quotation.

  16. Woodguy says:

    FastOil:
    Woodguy,

    WG a close friend (who isn’t into sports) mentioned to me by chance not long ago that the OIlers collect stats. He was talking about having dinner with a guy involved with it somehow, my friend having no idea how that would pique my interest. It makes sense, Tambellini did come from the Canucks org who try to be innnovative and gain advantage wherever they can.

    What they look at and how much they utilize it is of course a different story. I highly doubt it’s Desjardin somehow. I don’t see much evidence on the roster of advanced stats in play

    I know they Oilers collect stats. They included lots of stuff that you don’t see at BTN. They track battles won/lost, passing etc.

    As far as I know they only track their own players though.

    I have no idea what they use to evaluate non/Oilers.

  17. spoiler says:

    LOL, Matt. That quote reminds me of the efforts of the Green Revolution in the 1970s to bring Western-style pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers to the rice paddies of Asia. They over-turned a ton of practices that had been gained through generational trial and error, essentially rejecting centuries of built-up wisdom. The resulting crash in rice output was predictable to say the least. But despite that fact, it took years for rice farming to recover, because the initial analysis was that there was no way Western Science could be incorrect. So the view was “They’re doing it wrong.”

  18. rickithebear says:

    Gleason Signs 16M over 4YR. Full NTC. Smriggin smriggin Grrrrrrrrrr.

    Uh maybe we can tradde for Suter er! uh! or Sign Bryan Allen!

    WG: There was an article on the oilers site about a Stats guy hire. Cannot Remeber when.

  19. Woodguy says:

    bookje:
    WG – I once saw a documentary on top poker players and what was interesting was how different various top players were in their approaches to the game.Some players were like Human Computers who could spit out exact odds for each situation they saw and others fully relied upon intuitive processes – meaning that they basically went with ‘gut instincts’. In evaluating hockey players, I imagine that in addition to the numbers, there are a lot of other factors that come into it.I imagine scouts intuitively factor things in such as the coach-player situation that a prospect is in.So, you might find a gem of a player who is in a coaching regime that doesn’t suit their strengths.Some individuals ‘calculate’ a lot of that type of information using intuitive processes, meaning thinking processes that they are not aware of.Given that they are not aware of those internal thinking processes, they cannot enunciate them, so they say something like – “My gut tells me that Belanger will do well here”.

    Anyway, this is not to suggest that using stats of all kinds is not a valuable tool and I think that all NHL teams should have a small team of statistic’s junkies there to provide that perspective, but there is room for intuition as well.Individuals who rely upon more intuition can be very effective, particularly when the variables are complex (as they always are in the real world).In both cases (rational statistical evaluation or intuition), it needs to be about results.If a scout or GM has demonstrated a record of success and their trajectory is good, then give them the keys to the organization and let them go with it.I would suggest that if Steve Tambellini has been trying to pick good players, then he has done quite poorly.Stu’s record remains up for debate.

    I used to play a lot of poker at reasonable high levels.

    Every player at the higher levels know the stats of their hands value against various ranges of hands. All of them. “Feel” and “Math” players.

    Its not that hard. When you play all the time the math of poker becomes 2nd nature, which you use in

    Where the “feel player” usually differs from the “math” player is their application of their knowledge of hand reading.

    The “feel” players are more likely to “play their opponents” hand, rather than their own. Their betting patterns and goal in the hand (usually not to get to showdown, but to induce a fold) are predicated on what they think their opponent is holding and how they will react to various betting strategies.

    The “math” player does much the same thing but their actual hand value vs. the opponents range tends to play a bigger part of the decision making.

    That a very imperfect way of describing it, but that’s the basics of it.

    Poker math isn’t hard and after playing for a while you just “know” you hand value vs various ranges.

    There is no question that good non-hard stat information from the scouts can be a major contributor to decision making in personnel decision.

    I think that all “feel” scouting can be just as poor as “all stat” scouting if you are not putting things in their proper context.

    The optimal combination is up for debate but to go pure “stats” or pure “saw him good”, you are discounting information that shouldn’t be discounted.

    Information is one thing. The ability to analyze and distill that information (whether its people based or stats based) into something usable, then acting on that information is entirely another.

  20. Woodguy says:

    Jon WIllis posted this very good article from 2004 regarding the Sharks and stats based analysis.

    Sharks $ spent per win in tops in the NHL since the lock out as well, spending the least $/standing point since the lockout.

    The OIlers have spent the most $/standing point since the lock out.

    Jon was tweeting that SJS Asst. GM Joe Will might make a good GM candidate for the Oilers.

  21. Woodguy says:

    spoiler:
    LOL, Matt.That quote reminds me of the efforts of the Green Revolution in the 1970s to bring Western-style pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers to the rice paddies of Asia.They over-turned a ton of practices that had been gained through generational trial and error, essentially rejecting centuries of built-up wisdom.The resulting crash in rice output was predictable to say the least. But despite that fact, it took years for rice farming to recover, because the initial analysis was that there was no way Western Science could be incorrect. So the view was “They’re doing it wrong.”

    The resulting crash in rice output was predictable to say the least.

    Why predictable to say the least?

    Advances in farming technology (ie. Western Science) has the world producing more food per acre than ever before, and its not close.

    Its actually the main reason all the books from the 70′s and 80′s predicting a massive population collapse due to lack of food were wrong.

    The world produces food/care at a level that was non reasonable when those books were written.

    Having people apply information and technology arrogantly and without regards for specific situations doesn’t mean that the information or technology is wrong, just the application.

  22. Ribs says:

    Barons tweet…

    Second player this season to head overseas. Milan Kytnar heads to HPK of the SM-liiga.

    Well…He got to play one game!

  23. D says:

    Big $920 Million dollar cash infusion into the Katz Group today. Got to be good news. An owner with a strong cash position will always be able to spend to the cap.

  24. Traktor says:

    Woodguy:

    Advances in farming technology (ie. Western Science) has the world producing more food per acre than ever before, and its not close.

    Its actually the main reason all the books from the 70′s and 80′s predicting a massive population collapse due to lack of food were wrong.

    More food per acre but also stripped of most of the nutritional value and a much higher rate of cancer causing pesticises.

    Also, 300,000,000 people died of starvation from 1968 to 2003

    http://starvation.net/terrorism-vs-starvation-1968-2003.htm

    #gottastopthoseterrorists
    #nwo

    This isn’t a subject for LT’s blog but western science hasn’t done much to stop hunger or help the average north American get healthier (I heard there is a pill for that).

  25. Woodguy says:

    Traktor: More food per acre but also stripped of most of the nutritional value and a much higher rate of cancer causing pesticises.

    Also, 300,000,000 people died of starvation from 1968 to 2003

    http://starvation.net/terrorism-vs-starvation-1968-2003.htm

    #gottastopthoseterrorists
    #nwo

    This isn’t a subject for LT’s blog but western science hasn’t done much to stop hunger or help the average north American get healthier (I heard there is a pill for that).

    3.3 Billion people on the planet in 1965

    7 Billion today.

    Let’s stick to hockey.

  26. Woodguy says:

    Traktor: More food per acre but also stripped of most of the nutritional value and a much higher rate of cancer causing pesticises.

    Also, 300,000,000 people died of starvation from 1968 to 2003

    http://starvation.net/terrorism-vs-starvation-1968-2003.htm

    #gottastopthoseterrorists
    #nwo

    This isn’t a subject for LT’s blog but western science hasn’t done much to stop hunger or help the average north American get healthier (I heard there is a pill for that).

    Please start your renunciation of technology by getting rid of you access to the internet.

  27. spoiler says:

    Having people apply information and technology arrogantly and without regards for specific situations doesn’t mean that the information or technology is wrong, just the application.

    And what is the predictable outcome when such is done (arrogantly applying technology without regard for specific situations)? Sounds like you’re trying to prove my point and Chesterton’s quote.

    And by the way, advances in farming technology over the course of centuries in the Orient, had their region producing more rice per acre over that time period too (which also allowed vast population increases). There is no moral judgment to be made on the values of the respective technologies here, despite what seems to be your efforts to elucidate one (apologies, if not, but if not, I fail to see the point of your post). There is however, a moral judgement on the intiation, application and continued use of such technologies over other available technologies, which first Chesterton pointed out, then I pointed out with a relevant example, and now it appears, you have done as well.

  28. Woodguy says:

    Woodguy,

    Food distribution has more to do with politics than the ability to produce it.

    Ok, I’m done on this topic for sure now.

  29. Woodguy says:

    spoiler:
    Having people apply information and technology arrogantly and without regards for specific situations doesn’t mean that the information or technology is wrong, just the application.

    And what is the predictable outcome when such is done (arrogantly applying technology without regard for specific situations)?Sounds like you’re trying to prove my point and Chesterton’s quote.

    And by the way, advances in farming technology over the course of centuries in the Orient, had their region producing more rice per acre over that time period too (which also allowed vast population increases). There is no moral judgment to be made on the values of the respective technologies here, despite what seems to be your efforts to elucidate one (apologies, if not, but if not, I fail to see the point of your post).There is however, a moral judgement on the intiation, application and continued use of such technologies over other available technologies, which first Chesterton pointed out, then I pointed out with a relevant example, and now it appears, you have done as well.

    Your use of “predictably” set me off.

    It implied that applying technology and new methods was bound to fail in increasing crop production when the opposite is historically true.

  30. godot10 says:

    Woodguy,

    Those “geniuses” in San Jose missed the boat on Chris Pronger (letting him go to a rival in their division, and giving their rival a Stanley Cup. They also traded for Dany Heatley.

    How smart was that?

    At crunch time, right smack in the middle of their Stanley Cup window, the management in San Jose choked.

  31. Woodguy says:

    godot10:
    Woodguy,

    Those “geniuses” in San Jose missed the boat on Chris Pronger (letting him go to a rival in their division, and giving their rival a Stanley Cup. They also traded for Dany Heatley.

    How smart was that?

    At crunch time, right smack in the middle of their Stanley Cup window, the management in San Jose choked.

    So if you add statistical modeling to your management methods, you’ll never make a mistake?

    A team using stats as a key building block of their organization has more points per $ spent than anyone else.

    The Oiler have less points per $ spent than anyone else.

    Full stop.

    You can find micro-failures using 20/20 hindsight in any macro success story.

    I heard Einstein was a failure as student and was a terrible employee.

    Should probably discount all his other work too.

  32. godot10 says:

    Woodguy,

    Not trading for Pronger was not a minor mistake by Wilson and his team. It was a colossal strategic blunder, perhaps the most significant management mistake in the NHL in the last decade. They were too focused on their spreadsheets filled with statistics, and failed to see the big picture.

    Wilson actually had two shots at Pronger. Right after the lockout when Lowe signed him, and a year later after the Pronger-led Oilers beat the Sharks in the playoffs on the way to the finals. Two of the prime seasons in their window.

    But they are “geniuses”. Willis omitted the details of the San Jose narrative that didn’t fit the point he was trying to make. A supposed alternative stats geek intentionally omitting significant facts and pieces of information.

  33. Woodguy says:

    You’re right.

    They are terrible.

  34. Ribs says:

    I dunno…San Jose looked pretty good without Pronger. To say it’s a “colossal strategic blunder”, seems like a bit much.

  35. Smarmy says:

    Woodguy,

    I believe the peak worldwide food crop was somewhere between 2003-07. Unpredictable weather patterns, ocean acidification, salination of soil, genetic modifications and oil shortages are all hindering food production around the world. It’s going to continue to decline but just how fast depends on which climate model you want to follow.

  36. DSF says:

    One should bear in mind there are two principles driving the creation of a successful hockey team and while they can be closely related, they sometimes aren’t.

    San Jose, being a non-traditional market has been wildly successful although they haven’t won a cup.

    Being a perennial playoff team drives ticket, merchandise and concession revenue and if they can be very successful at that while saving dollars on payroll you can hardly consider not acquiring Pronger a a colossal blunder.

    I’m sure they would love to win a cup as would more than a few of the teams who will be competing for it come April but ownership can hardly be disappointed in their management record.

  37. knighttown says:

    We often talk about the goal being to win a Cup but isn’t that setting the target a little narrow? If you’re playing a 170 yard par 3, is your goal to put the ball in the hole or hit it to 3 feet? Mine isn’t. I like to think about putting a good swing on it and let the results fall where they may.

    I believe the equivalent of “putting a good wing on it” would be to build a team that consistently competes for a home ice advantage in the first round of the playoffs. After that, let the chips fall where they may.

  38. hunter1909 says:

    Win the cup or don’t bother.

    They have three potential franchise players together on the Kid Line, and are positioned to add to this with a chance to add yet another incredible player; and, as the 1984-1991 dynasty never had more than 5 of these types it’s a reasonable assumption that if nothing else the high end future is assured.

    That was, until all the Kid Line got injured.

    Where’s the captain? Oh yeah, he flat out stinks as anything more than a bottom 6 grinder.

    Where’s the defence? Seriously, Lowebellini are counting on doomed Ryan Whitney? or Cam Barker?

    Whatever happened to the Swedes? Oskar Klefbom takes a good look at the Pajaarvi/Omark mishandling and suddenly the Oilers are looking at yet one more compensation pick.

    The goalies suck. Aren’t there any more coming up from OKC? It’s patently obvious Dubnyk is a bust. He’s NEVER played on any team that’s been any good at all, and he’s nearly 30 years old. Meanwhile other teams regularly bring up goalies on an annual basis(think the Habs) who thrive.

    Fans hear rumours that Sam Gagner of all players is on the block…Gagner, the second line centre of the future, ex star of that junior tournament – but no, Lowebellini could well see fit to flush this talented player, leaving the worthless yet $5.5 million cap hit Horcoff embedded in the lineup.

    Then there’s the defence. bringing up these rookies one after the other, watching them crash and burn then bust – but look! There’s some more shiny prospects to talk about!

    As for the transparency of Katz’s mafia – other than the silly “oil change” fans know little about the real workings of this perennial bottom feeder(NY Islanders East basically), which in the age of the world wide web hardly cuts it either.

    Kid Line aside, this team has fuck all going for it. It’s little better than 1993 ffs.

  39. Woodguy says:

    Smarmy:
    Woodguy,

    I believe the peak worldwide food crop was somewhere between 2003-07. Unpredictable weather patterns, ocean acidification, salination of soil, genetic modifications and oil shortages are all hindering food production around the world. It’s going to continue to decline but just how fast depends on which climate model you want to follow.

    Many believed that worldwide food crop peaked in the 60′s. Then in the 70′s. Then in the 80′s, etc. etc.

    There’s no question there is a large number of complex issues that affect the worldwide food production, but I hesitate to buy into one person or group’s exclamation of a “peak”, when all who have stated it in the past have been wrong.

    As for global warming, one of the positive side effects is longer growing seasons in some typically cooler climates leading to 2 harvests as opposed to one.

    One of the negative side effects seems to be some desertification.

    Too many factors to state anything definite.

  40. spoiler says:

    Woodguy said…

    It implied that applying technology and new methods was bound to fail in increasing crop production when the opposite is historically true.

    No, it wasn’t implied, it was explicitly stated. When applying a diifferent technology to supplant existing technology, without rhyme or reason, failure is the expected result. What is there about this that you don’t understand?

  41. spoiler says:

    Okay, I’m being an asshole and I apologize. The point being is that the knowledge Chesterton refers to has stood the test of time. It has been accumulated by long hours of trial and error, observation and report. It too is Science. The hubris of another system to walk in and assume it is better, because it too has been successful(with a strong impetus from the Chemical companies promoting their products in new markets) just blows me away. What the hell kind of logiic is that? Who discards centuries of learning? I think Chesterton speaks of that very hubris. It’s not that Science is wrong, but that the Science of Generational Learning can be casually disregarded, because “Modern” Science is automatically better. Chesterton was right. Folly lies there.

  42. art vandelay says:

    To address LT’s original premise: yes, we will look back on this NHL era’s player-movement folly.
    Twenty years from now, if we’ve lucky enough to have a game dominated by skill not savagery, fans will look back to today and wonder how the AHL could be filled with skilled 5-10 175lb FWs who routinely put up 80-pt seasons, while 245lb POS patrol the 4th line in NHL cities everywhere.

  43. pelhem grenville says:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_Europe_(Vancouver)

    here’s that old wonderful buildings’ history via Wikipedia

    …hung out in Gastown in the late 60′s early 70′s…good times before the rich people moved in…

  44. pelhem grenville says:

    yup in an unthinkable time warp thingy here thought i was on september 30 time warp not january 31

    d’oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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