SHAWN HORCOFF 11-12: THRASHER
Shawn Horcoff played his first NHL game December 6, 2000. He got an assist in a game where Ryan Smyth played a major role and Tommy Salo got a shutout. He’ll be remembered for many things–some good, some bad–but mostly for the big contract and the long, nightmare coda that will send him on his way.
Shawn Horcoff 10-11
- 5×5 points per 60: 1.47 (6th among regular forwards)
- 5×4 points per 60: 4.99 (1st among regular forwards)
- Qual Comp: toughest among regular forwards
- Qual Team: best available teammates among regular forwards
- Corsi Rel: 7.0 (4th best among regular forwards)
- Zone Start: 50.6% (7th easiest among regular forwards)
- Zone Finish: 46.6% (13th best among regular forwards)
- Shots on goal/percentage: 78/11.5% (5th among F’s but DNQ)
- Boxcars: 47gp, 9-18-27
- Plus Minus: -1 on a team that was -52
Shawn Horcoff 11-12
- 5×5 points per 60: 1.04 (9th among regular forwards, 299th in NHL)
- 5×4 points per 60: 3.20 (7th among regular forwards)
- Qual Comp: toughest among regular forwards
- Qual Team: 5th best available teammates among regular forwards
- Corsi Rel: -1.0 (7th best among regular forwards)
- Zone Start: 43.9% (2nd toughest, 13th easiest among regular forwards)
- Zone Finish: 45.4% (11th best among regular forwards)
- Shots on goal/percentage: 123/10.6% (6th among F’s)
- Boxcars: 81gp, 13-21-34
- Plus Minus: -23 on a team that was -26
- What do these numbers tell us? Deep into his career, Shawn Horcoff is still playing the toughs. The Oilers should have a better candidate but they don’t and he’s once again answered the bell. Very, very poor offensive number 5×5, quality CorsiRel based on steepness of the mountain and his plus minus is a train wreck. Zone start drastic.
- How could these numbers be better? Oilers should be able to get him help, they tried but Belanger ended up making Horcoff look like Hercules. These are really difficult minutes and this season the Oilers decided to give him tough opponents, tough zone and lesser linemates. Maybe they’ll add juggling for next season.
- How much did he play? Led forwards on the Oilers in total minutes, number 7th at evens, led in PK minutes per game and was 4th in PP minutes.
- Still taking faceoffs? Led team in faceoffs taken, 2nd in % at 49.4 (behind Belanger).
- Shouldn’t Gagner be taking some of the load? I think coach Renney has decided to handle this differently than MacT would have, and RNH-Gagner get the softer minutes with the expectation that they can better max the offense. But yes, a young center like Gagner should be moving into this role or helping sooner than later.
- How did you get Horcoff’s jersey to flap in the wind on the photo above? Photoshop? It’s an old photo. He’s lost some footspeed along the way.
- He’s done you know. Tell that to coach Renney and the other coaches before him. Shawn Horcoff has been handling the tough minutes at center since the Oilers traded Jarret Stoll, and during a time when they’ve left the station with two rookie centers twice in 5 seasons.
- Man, give up. On what? Shawn Horcoff delivered very poor offense, and sure I can see the Oilers badly need to upgrade at center; however, this is no easy business we’re talking about here. Ask Eric Belanger, who faced easier opposition and delivered less offense. The Oilers have asked Horcoff to do every crap job that came down the pipe and he’s been noble in every step. If you’re looking for a burial, look elsewhere.
- What could he do to cover the money they’re paying him? Well, that’s a different matter. I have no problem with the money he earns, Edmonton signed him to the contract and he’s done everything they’ve asked without bitching or moaning about it. But he’s certainly not covering the bet, if that’s what you mean.
- Okay, how can he be more effective? I think the Oilers need someone to share the load. Not just the tough opp but the zone starts too. Introducing rookie centermen two at a time doesn’t help either.
- How much should they count on him? If Sam Pollock took over this team, I guarantee the Oilers would have much better depth at center by September 1.
- How much WILL they count on him? The Oilers are extremely unlikely to add anyone, might even offload Belanger. So next season it might be RNH-Gagner and then Horcoff followed by Lander. They SHOULD be trying to find the next Horcoff, but I suspect they’ll run the batteries down on this one another year.
- Three more seasons at a 5.5M cap hit. They’ll never get rid of him. I’m sure the Oilers could deal him if it came to that, he’s a $4M salary in 13-14 and then $3M the following year. Might want to replace his minutes first, though.
- Where do you see him playing after Edmonton? I always thought Detroit, but he’s 34 in September. The problem is his number, that cuts down on possible destinations. However, as I said the Oilers don’t have anyone else to protect the kids (aside from the also sliding Belanger) so his home will be Rexall unless they decide to offload him in a salary dump.
- Makes sense. Not really. Edmonton is using these veterans to protect the kids. If you think Horcoff’s numbers are bad on this graph, check out RNH and Lander and then project them against tough opposition and punishing zone starts.
- What will he do after his career? Something safer. Maybe bomb squad.
- You’re the last guy defending Horcoff, you know. I don’t think that’s true and so what if it is? People tend to attack him on the money and then the conversation heads in another direction. We can agree Horcoff is off his previous levels and he’s slipping down the batting order, but the Oilers keep using him in extreme circumstances and he’s the best available man on the roster for those zone starts and protecting the kids. Eventually the yutes will grow up and he’ll grow flowers in his retirement.
- The song implies you think he’s done, too. I think he’s no longer able to handle these minutes without drowning, and that is reflected in his 5×5 number. If the Oilers change their strategy and give him fewer minutes, better linemates and zone start one expects the offense will improve. Unlikely to happen though.
- You’ll miss him when he’s gone. Damn straight. He’s been a warrior.
- Paid in full. And that contract has defined the second half of his career in the eyes of Oiler fans. Funny how things work out.
- NHL Prediction for 11-12: 62, 13-18-31 (.500)
- Actual 2011: 81, 13-21-34 (.420)
If Sam Pollock took over this team, I guarantee the Oilers would have much better depth at center by September 1.
That’s a heck of a guarantee, LT.
I’m betting that Pollock does nothing with the center position – because, well, he’s dead.
The Oilers played Belanger and Horcoff together a little bit the last few games with VDV centering the 4th line. They might try that next year. I think VDV is ahead of Lander right now.
“Okay, how can he be more effective? I think the Oilers need someone to share the load. Not just the tough opp but the zone starts too. Introducing rookie centermen two at a time doesn’t help either.
How much should they count on him? If Sam Pollock took over this team, I guarantee the Oilers would have much better depth at center by September 1.
How much WILL they count on him? The Oilers are extremely unlikely to add anyone, might even offload Belanger. So next season it might be RNH-Gagner and then Horcoff followed by Lander. They SHOULD be trying to find the next Horcoff, but I suspect they’ll run the batteries down on this one another year.”
LT, my interpretation of your article translates to “trade Sam Gagner” unless you’re suggesting they look for a tough minutes 4C to share the load (I’m assuming that’s not the case).
Cue Traktor
My Sunday ritual = waking up, pouring a coffee, typing in “lo” in the search bar and clicking the first thing that pops up…. It’s always this site.
Thanks for all the work you put in, LT!!
Horcoff is a warrior for sure. Cut his paycheck in half and everyone loves him. VDV may be a better 4th line centre then Lander, and he may be able to take some of those minutes. Although I saw Gagner as much better on his own zone. Give Gagner some responsible wingers and he may be able to be the all situations centre. That would solve a lot of issues, and Horc would have more gas and be much more effective. And get him off the PP. He did ok there, but he’s exhausted and with the talent on this team his minutes need to be cut somewhere and PP is the obvious choice.
ItsTheBGB,
Yeah, mine too for the last four years.
Love this site.
As for the Oilers, it’s easy to lose sight of the fact that they’re largely a hodgepodge of spent and or injury prone forces, along with the gifted three (+/- the Nail/Murray).
Well that is until the playoffs are on and you pay more attention to what teams like LAK and Philly can throw over the boards.
The meme from those that deposit checks with the Oil drop on the front as Woodguy likes to refer to seems to be that the vets didn’t deliver this past season. I’m not sure that it’s their fault and certainly doubt we can expect much more from them.
It would be nice to see a shift away from milking the draft to trying to compete next season. By trying to compete, I mean actually trying to compete (real UFA signings, cap spend, etc.) We’d obviously need far more than last years acquisitions of Barker, Sutton, Belanger, Eager, Hordi etc… to actually try to compete.
That being said, it’s hard to imagine Tambo picking up some real impact players (outside of the draft), but you never know…
Anybody think the OIlers would have a chance at Paul Gaustad in the ufa market? HanzAl like guy from Buffalo$ nashville traded their first round pick for him but if they keep Suter maybe they won’t be able ot pay Gaustad?
Exactly what the Oilers need on the fourth line imo.
Question to all of you. If you could have only one who would you prefer Klefbom or Murray?
oilersfan,
He may cost a few million. Only get Gaustad if we off load Belanger. But yes, he us a perfect fit.
Funny how the Toronto media is calling for Burke to try for the top pick. Is the 5 th and Gardiner enough? Would we want Gardiner, Armstrong (expensive but fills need for tough minutes 3 rd line RW) and the 5 th overall? Or maybe Gunnarson who played tougher comp and is still cheap.
I don’t think anyone cares about the actual money Horcoff makes. The problem is sometimes players on big contracts get more opportunity than they deserve and when things go south the contract makes it hard to move on.
LT made a few points that didn’t quite make sense, one of them the idea that we should look players than can optimize Horcoff.
We don’t need a 4th line center that makes Horcoff a better 3rd line center or for Horcoff to start taking offensive zone starts instead of more skilled options. That is just ass backwards. We need a better 3rd line center.
Finding a good 3rd line center isn’t an easy task but the Oilers aren’t going to go far if they can’t admit their problems.
Horcoff is one of them.
Edmonton would certainly be better if Gagner was a more complete player and could handle the Thornton’s of the world but lets be honest, the only thing Horcoff brought to the team was the idea that he could play good players and not bleed. The ability to shorten the game. If he can no longer do that then he has no value.
I’m betting that Pollock does nothing with the center position – because, well, he’s dead.
And Mr Tambourlliniman’s excuse won’t be half as good.
Who will people bitch about when Horcov is gone? Maybe we should start a pool.
Matheson had a quote in his column today,
“You can never have enough puck-movers,” said Edmonton Oilers general manager Steve Tambellini.
So trade your best one away Steve.
Ryan: Yes, I think Gagner may be dealt this summer. For defensive help.
DBO,
Money is part of it but if even if he played for free, how do you deal with the fact that RNH, a slight 18 year old rookie, had essentially the same shots for but drastically better shots against than Horcoff? So RNH is a clearly a better defensive player already and should have been playing the toughs instead of Horcoff. You’d have to use some kind of convoluted apologetics that claims better opposition and lesser linemates manages to affect boxcars and, moreover, somehow start the conversation with team goal differential rather than individual scoring rates. Sophistry!
Horcoff was terrible and the anger deservedly falls primarily on him or his contract. Not the coach that fed him those primo minutes, and especially not the GM who dealt him the hand while grinning from ear to ear.
oilswell,
Sorry, but RNH is not better defensively. When you start most of the time in the O zone, your shot totals are going to he skewed. The Nuge is improving, and has some Datsyuk esque qualities, but he’s not ready for tough assignments.
For a second I thought Horcoff had been traded to the Thrashers. But that’s impossible, isn’t it?
Here’s something else that’s impossible: Oilers being any good of a playoff team with Horcoff sucking up capspace, primo ice time and being yet another in a sadly long list of useless Oiler captains.
Sorry, but I think Horcoff is spent. He is a true albatross. He can’t play with the kids, he would bring their level down a notch. He doesn’t raise the notch in a bottom 6 roll. If we must have him for 3 more years it should 4th line and PK only with a fair amount of PressBox time. I believe if he was UFA this summer, we would not offer another contract.
Talking about Horcoff is like talking about politics or religion, it always reminds me about the fact that the average IQ is about 100 and that means a good portion of the population falls south of that number. Next up, the provincial election… I want more services, less taxes, more freedom, but more moral controls on society….
Talking about Horcoff is like telling your buddy that you seen his girl at the bar hanging on to another guy.
Rather than accepting the truth, they bury their head in the sand and call you dumb.
LT, I need your comments on this from Jim Matheson today:
If they’re taking Yakupov, they absolutely have to make a big play to sign either the University of Wisconsin’s Jason Schultz, or Florida Panthers unrestricted free-agent defenceman Jason Garrison on July 1. Both players are adept at moving the puck
“You can never have enough puck-movers,” said Edmonton Oilers general manager Steve Tambellini.
Is this serious? Why trade Gilbert, and then have to move some of your depth at centre to get another puck mover?
I’m so sad.
Traktor,
I don’t know Trakotor, you talk like you’re fighting an uphill battle against people who refuse to see the light, but I think the article admitted most of what you claim: Horcoff is losing his mojo. Many longtime Horcoff fans (Lowetide, Me) have said outloud that this was not a good season for him.
If you’re trying to go even further and say he was only ever useful as a defensive forward and he is now worthless I’d disagree. The first point is easy to refute because he’s had two seasons with excellent offensive numbers and several other decent ones. Is he still good for anything? I think so, but maybe he can’t handle an insane workload anymore (it looks like his job actually got tougher this year, not easier). Horcoff would flourish in Belanger’s role. I don’t know that his salary allows for that.
A team needs six good defensemen. Dumb question.
Dahoosman: I have no connection to the Edmonton Oilers in any way. I do not interview the players and I don’t get fed inside info.
With that understood, I’d suggest there must have been something outside the rink that caused it. Trade request, perhaps a falling out over role, etc.
No inside info. Just seemed weird. Plus, in hindsight they left him behind so there was knowledge that the deal was going to occur. We’ll never know imo, but that would be my guess.
Until advanced stats starts tracking “whiffs per game” Horcoff’s numbers are skewed.
Eberle and Hall were taking on the toughs pretty much as rookies with Horcoff. Hall and Eberle were on pace for 50-point rookie seasons if they had stayed healthy.
The Oilers shouldn’t do this going forward, but what you said just isn’t true.
Matheson also likes Hall sliding to Centre, has Sutter pimping Murray, Mumblellini musing that the Oil don’t have a Championship quality top pairing defense.
I’m not convinced Hall should play in the middle. Shouldn’t he be the guy you want breaking the puck out of the zone? The speed of Hall and Hemsky down the walls dictate which defensive pairing an opposing coach can have out against them.
A lot of love being shown for Murray right now. I wonder if this is to try and move him a spot up the rankings and make taking him 1st more acceptable. Or if these means they are considering trading down to 2nd or 3rd. MTL would probably be a fit, but Matheson also has the Jackets in love with Murray, so maybe he goes 2nd then. Dumba is Captain of the U18 team, but that’s not quite the same endorsement as a WHC invite. If Murray is the guy they want, trading down might be a bad idea.
If Tambellini wants to improve the top 2, which would be lovely, he should be cheering for Nashville to lose this morning.
And speaking of lovely, nice goal by NSH.
Growing up around Alberta farming, then going 3000 miles to study chemistry at an excessively competitive school, there were a few things that helped get me through, and that song was definitely one of them. The whole album is a favourite for sure, but somehow Thrasher always stood out.
I’ve learned a great deal on this site about advanced statistics and for it I’m even more clear that scoring is hardly the only job on the team. The thought that defensemen are responsible to keep the puck out and forwards to put the puck in has been near completely eradicated. I think all the forwards have been strung out by an under matched defense, and probably Horc has received the worst of that load.
That he has carried the weight without a single Omarkian peep shows me character and inner strength which makes him, imo, a very worthy captain. Through the tank run of 08-12 plus looking forward for the next number of years, Shawn Horcoff may be one of the more important players this franchise has ever seen. I’ve got nothing but mad respect for the way he has handled things, and to connect a song with personal significance to the man who was so able to quietly get his ass kicked playing with kids in a man’s league, you know, I’m good with it.
My hat is off to Shawn Horcoff, he will be remembered by me for the way he did his job in spite of the obvious lack of support. May I remember this in marriage and in life, and may all the kids in his environment learn some of the same.
Over the last five years, I think (for me) today’s edition could be the best this thread has ever been.
There certainly were too many coincidences to make one believe that there were no other issues. That being said, I have come to appreciate Schultz’s very steady and unflashy style. He gets the job done.
Horcoff faced much harder comp but he also had better teammates.
Belanger had the harder zone starts with much, much, better zone finishes.
Belanger actually had the highest Ozone start/finish differential on the team last year at +5.7
I agree that the lesser the role Horcoff has the better he would do but there is no evidence that he would flourish in Belanger’s role.
Dipstick,
Are you guys kidding?
http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2012/03/02/oilers-start-up-analytics-group-to-delve-into-moneypuck-issues/
http://www.coppernblue.com/2011/6/23/2236663/oilers-summer-trade-target-nick-schultz
Don’t you guys see Bruce McCurdy standing on the grassy knoll? :p (joking, of course)
If Tambo is looking for a Championship quality defense, would Garrison or Schultz fulfill that criterion?
Would any UFA other than Suter suffice? Is it possible to beat out the Detroit, Philly, New Yorks of this world? Without a tremendous overpay?
So this improvement would have to come by trade?
Who has a top pairing defenseman they want to trade? Nashville isn’t trading Weber if they can’t sign Suter, and they can’t keep Suter if they trade Weber. Maybe something would shake loose from one of the teams that does sign Suter, say Staal from New York, but Tambellini seems strangely confident that this can get done. How many top pairing Dmen don’t have no trade clauses?
The speed of this rebuild depends on Tambo’s ability to accomplish this mission that he has set for himself.
As good as Murray might be, surely he’s more than a couple of years away from championship quality.
1, Is it Horcoff’s fault he blows? Yes, who else is to blame?
2. Is it Horcoff’s fault he’s tragically, historically overpaid? No. Nobody turns down money. Nobody.
The blame for having a 7 billion dollar slug in the lineup for another 12 years lies at the feet of whichever village idiot signed Horcoff to that contract. If I were confined to a wheelchair and could only see out of one ear, but was getting paid that kind of dough, I’d show up for work and grind it out even if 18,000 people in the vicinity and ones more in the algores called me a stupidstinkface every time they saw me. We all would and to suggest otherwise is to be a liar.
Fire the guy who signed Horcoff to that deal. Then bury Horcoff’s contract in the minors. And get serious about putting a quality team on the ice instead of this collection of wunderkinds taking feeds from rec-hockey Dmen and trying to defend women’s hockey-level goalies.
Nice read LT. Smitty may be the fan fav., but to me Horcoff is the most significant and valuable true blue Oiler since Weight.
If any moves are made, I hope they are done solely to determine the core. Aging role players can be found at any time, and should be the final pieces to flesh out a competitive young team that will be expensive at some point.
By the 2013 season start, the Oilers should have every core player in place as best as possible. Centre and the top D have to be resolved. If Gagner isn’t the man, use the supposed org. depth and get the guy you want. Personally, my choices would be
1. to target Couturier (or if not possible a similar. The first for Sean and Philly’s first. Yak can play with Schenn).
2. For a defenseman, I would target a young player. Even though Weber or Suter are great, they will be right at the end of peak when the rest of the team is hitting stride. A guy 20-22 would be better. I like Pietrangelo. If the Blues go out first or second, a case could be made that they need more scoring. Hemsky or Gagner, Blaine and a second for A P.
I can’t see how a rebuild is being performed if the most important positions aren’t being directly addressed. If they deal Gagner without acquiring another young quality centre, there is no forward progress.
Traktor was cued as soon as the letters H and O appeared in succession in the post’s title.
As for Gilbert, my hypothesis has always been that he asked for a trade. He’s traded to his hometown(-ish) team in a trade that clearly doesn’t make sense for the Oilers, and then makes comments in the media about how he’d always expected he’d play there someday? With that assumption (supported only by conjecture) made, I don’t blame the Oilers too much for the trade, because the return wasn’t awful, just insufficient.
As for the song, I used to own (before my CDs were all stolen) this album. Overall, it was disappointing and I wouldn’t recommend it, but St. Alvia’s version of Thrasher was a standout.
Marc-Andre Fleury is just killing the Pens.
Philly has the 3 first period goals. Somehow, I don’t think this game will work out the other way.
Boy these two teams sure do love each other. Could see some important ejections here.
It’s amazing how much better Briere plays while making nothing in the playoffs than when making $7 million in the regular season.
This is about 1980 hockey. Wow. Flyers and Penguins were never this good, not that I can recall. Man.
off topic but Schneider starting for nucks tonight. Would anyone want Luongo? If schneider excels tonight, it may not cost much to get Luongo. Yes high cap hit, but he is a top 5 goalie and instantly makes us better. if it didn’t cost much more then the SMYTH deal could we turn it down?
The problem with Luongo is the contract. I love Luongo’s ability, but paying for it and keeping all the kids? I can’t make that math work.
I’m a big Botterill for GM fan, but Pitts not getting an adequate backup, shows there’s flaws in even the best run teams.
Them losing those two games to NYI at the end of the season completely changed the playoff picture.
Yeah, and i guess it means dealing the 1st for immediate help. For me it comes down to does he make you a true contender? Personally i’d like to see them offer sheet Schneider just to screw them up contract wise.
An the Flyers Pens series is crazy. Just crazy. old school mean ass hockey.
This has been an unbelievable playoffs for intent to injure. Physical intimidation is the name of the game right now.
spoiler,
So does taking out instigator make it better or worse? I’m not so sure
DBO I think Tyler mentioned that (at least that I saw) and it makes sense. Maybe speeds. Anyway, adding a strong #1 for something this side of insane would help that cross eyed defense the Oilers seem bent on putting out there every season.
And this series may be the most entertaining series in a decade.
DBO,
No, I’d rather have DD at 26, than Luongo at 33?
Why would St. Louis even listen to such an offer? AP has more points than either Gagner or Hemsky last year. AP is one of the top young dmen in the league. The conversation starts and ends with one of the gifted three and even then I am not sure St.Louis would do it.
Justin Schultz and Jason Garrison would be a good start to fixing our Dcore.
Then we just need to find some Mike Grier types for the bottom of the roster.
Highlight by Neal
what’s the most goals by a team in a modern series? Philly could challenge it. At least on goals per game.
So does that mean we move down a spot and draft Grigorenko? 1OV for 2OV and Methot or Tyutin?
No. I think you take Nail. Anything else and you’re trying to solve problems instead of grabbing the best chance for super nova.
I already knew it but watching the Pens/Flyers or Sens/Rags should make others obvious that we don’t have enough grit.
Obviously we have other deficiencies (not enough good centers, terrible D) so Tambellini needs to hit two birds with one stone with any future trades or signings.
We need a few Steve Ott’s and Gator’s in their prime.
“Swingers” is on the W movie channel.
I don’t believe in anything anymore.
Everyone Knows I am a battle on the hill Horcoff fan.
But he is done. Noticed footspeed decline.
1. he is a below average PK center.
2. He is a below average PP center.
3. He was a top 5 face the toughs, hard zone start center, but now he is not even top 25.
Shawn horcoff now is a;
1. 3rd unit PK center 1:30 TOI
2. bairly 2nd unit PP center 1: 30 TOI
3. Shared toughs EV center with 13:00 TOI
The Oilers don’t have the skill to match Pens-Flyers either. Knuckle-draggers are a dime a dozen. If you’re talking about adding skilled men with size and who give effort, fine. But if we’re bringing in George Parros the same summer Linus Omark gets the gaspipe then I’m not buying.
And again back to Horcoff. Not a hitter, Not an agitator. Bottom six player and too soft.
Good grief.
It’s truly awesome isn’t it? We’ve been transported back to the 70′s.
Ditto – I was going to try to write some kind of overexagerated criticisms of Horcoff to parody the haters, but it’s like trying to Parody the GOP – you simply can’t because they are already a parody of themselves.
Agreed. That’s why he is Captain.
BOOKJE & LT
What’s Horcoff’s roll next year. How and with who would you play him for the next 3 years?
Replace Gagner with Ott, Horcoff with Talbot, and Belanger with Zack Smith and this team makes the playoffs this year. Even with our shitty defense.
Add Suter and we are cup contenders.
Oilers scored 44 in a 6-game set against the Hawks in ’85. That’s 7.3 G/G.
I keep trying to reconcile the concept of Shawn Horcoff as “soft” with memories of him blocking a shot with his face to save a playoff win at the Joe in ’06.
And, I keep failing.
Here, here. Watching StL vs SJ, Phi vs Pitt, in fact pretty much every series, grit is important. Grit (hate that word), + skill capable of playing top 2 – 3 lines. You should have at least one Lucic, Backes, Thornton, Hartnell and ice players that can inititate. Oilers have next to none and the only possible candidate is Hall as the lineup stands now.
I doubt anybody thinks it’s important to watch a Parros and Shawn Thornton duke it out in the grand scheme of things but you should be able to play physical. Both ways, at F and D.
First thing I do coaching a playoff series vs Hall, Eberle, Hopkins, Yakupov is run the shit out of them. Who’s going to kick back? Smyth? Smid? Har.
Loved the Sens pushback at the Rags last night for Boyle taking liberties with Karlsson. In Edmonton you look the other way when that happens.
Horcoff got 34 points this season playing tough minutes. I think he can be an effective third line player on a line that balances checking and scoring. I think he can slot into the first two lines when needed. I also suspect that once the workload is reduced that he will be more effective for the time that he is out there.
I have no problem with people who note that Horcoff has lost a step, etc, nor those who critique his terrible contract. However, he can still be effective at the NHL level and is probably a $2.5 million dollar player.
Also, as mentioned, with a reduced workload and perhaps some luck in the recovery/health side – he could be an important part of the improvement of the team next year.
Some of you make him sound like an ECHL player.
Speaking of ’85, though, I think Marc-Andre Fleury is actually worse than Murray Bannerman.
I see your blocked shot from 6 years ago and raise you Robert Nilsson outhitting Horcoff two years in a row.
Why do you folks bother chatting with the trolls? If you ignore them they’ll either go away or eventually start feeling kind of lonely and silly for posting endlessly on a forum where they’re ignored.
If LA beats Vancouver they’ll be the team I’ll cheer until the playoffs are over.
Philadelphia is such a well-constructed team. If they had a fully-operational Pronger right now they’d be devastating. I don’t know about you but I’m happy Pit-Phi is so brutal. The Pennsylvania turnpike has always been hot, muggy, with expensive gas, and usually backed-up traffic. I’ve never liked that state.
Was it on CBC that I heard this quote, “Edmontoon traded a offensive Dman that does not score for one of the best Shutdown Dmen.” sounds about right. There was a counter. “But he is getting lots of minutes. ” the response “great for a soon to be last place team.”
Goals goals goals! Everybody should have goals. But it’s smart to ensure they’re attainable.
Opposite points of view should allways be considered!
A true thinker is willing to change there opinion.
Besides they do not Suck Corsi C………..
@Rickithebear: It’s not clear to me there is an “opposite side” being presented. It seems to be antagonism for its own sake much of the time. You’ll notice many people here don’t post a single point of view, frequently they post several, sometimes conflicting ideas. Anyhow, I’ll stop the meta-discussion as this kind of stuff gets snore-y fairly fast.
I stand corrected, because I forgot that counted Hits = the true measure of toughness, and that Centre= Wing.
I’m curious.
What is the “true measure of toughness” and how do you feel it applies to Horcoff?
Bryz and Fleury sharing a common weakness……
Shots on goal
Its not perfect but certainly better than an example of Horcoff blocking a shot 6 years ago that was mostly to do with the shooters poor aim. Every player in the league gets in shooting lanes, what happens next is random.
I don’t think it is adequately described by numbers, certainly not a single number taken in isolation. I’ve seen Lady Byng winners that I would consider tough.
I get that Horcoff isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but to anyone calling him “soft” likely hasn’t spent a whole lot of time watching the guy grind it out for the last twelve years.
Note to Pittsburgh: pull your Johnson.
So, can Pittsburgh come back? Maybe if they use that sheet of plywood with three holes in it?
Guys at work were discussing this and I think its an interesting trade proposal.
To CLB
EDM 2012 first round pick
EDM 2013 first round pick
To EDM
CLB 2012 first round pick
CLB 2013 first round pick
Would you do it?
Philadelphia’s Under 25′s
Giroux – 24
Read – 24
Simmonds – 23
Voracek – 22
Van Reimsdyck – 22
Wellwood – 22
Rinaldo – 21
Schenn – 20
Couturier – 19
Oilers Under 25′s
Petry -24
Peckham – 24
Gagner – 22
Eberle – 21
Hall – 20
Hopkins – 19
Tell me again which team has missed the playoffs 6 years in a row and which team hash’t missed the playoffs in 5 years.
Why do that, Tamob will win the lottery again next year….have you no faith?
Apparently there are no soft players in the NHL due to eye of the beholder. Horcoff is not as effective as he was and I don’t think it’s going to change.
Whale: Agree completely with your 2nd sentence. He’s on the downside.
I’ve watched virtually every minute of that 12 years watching him grind things out.
I’ve watched him skate away staring at his laces after a team mate got mugged too many times to count.
I’ve watched 12 years of a 6’1″ 207 lb player play like he’s 5’10″ 180.
“Grinding it out” doesn’t IMO make a player tough and those who were calling him Horcules and Scorecoff should surely be embarrassed.
At his peak, he was an above average second line centre and with the decline in his hockey skills he’s a poor man’s Sami Pahlsson at twice the price for another three seasons.
That contract should have been a firing offence never mind the other gaffes that have ensued.
Man this is great (Phi – Pit)
I agree that there is more to toughness than hitting.
Can we all agree though that Shawn Horcoff is not a physical player, or an agitator that gets under the opponents skin.
Its true that Horcoff will block shots and will try and win a battle in the corner using smarts and body position but the same can be said about 99% of hockey players. Every player gets in shooting lanes and Rob Schremp is probably the only player in the league that wouldn’t go in the corners so how exactly does Horcoff differentiate himself from the rest of the NHL?
If Horcoff isn’t soft then nobody in the NHL is soft. Great.
Horcoff is fine if you are only looking at Horcoff but when you look at the core of team, what pieces the team has, it becomes obvious what the team is missing.
The Oilers are a soft hockey team and the skilled players they have are keepers.
That means the vanilla players like Horcoff and Belanger should be replaced with Talbot’s and Smith’s if we want a balanced hockey club in terms of skill and toughness.
Eddie Shore is gonna headbutt someone before this game is over.
Somehow I doubt Crosby will make it out of this series without another concussion. They’re killing each other out there.
WOW, this is some game…
The thing I find so odd about this troll-playing is the idea that you’re all going to come to some consensus, like there’s some absolute truth out there that, through sufficient on-line debate, you’re going to eke it out. This is science folks!
Hulk Hogan is on the big screen! I think he’s asking everyone to take off their shirts.
I think before you get all fancy you have to start at the bottom end of the lineup and upgrade.
Barker out – Shane O’Brien in
Hordichuk out – Andre Deveaux in
Omark out – Lee Stempniak in
All easy upgrades. Same skill sets just better. Pick the low hanging fruit.
Next sign your RFAs and Ryan Smyth (if reasonable money is possible – if it isn’t sign Alexei Ponikarovsky).
Now you can worry about all the exciting stuff.
Funny thing is…
Oilers can only afford 4-5 top players on the payroll at any time due to the cap. Right now they have 3 of the 4-5 players, and with Yakupov are set to add the 4th one, so now, please anyone please explain to me exactly how Oiler’s are supposed to procure that elusive 4th or 5th elite player to compliment the 3 already on the team…once they deal away the guaranteed 4th guy for magic beans? How? Because they can now draft a lower ranked player? Or because another team will give up a flawed youngster to the idiotic Oilers for Nail freaking Yakupov??
Honestly.
Nice to see both the Canyuck-yuks and Penguins getting bounced early.
PS: Now it makes sense. A young “Steve Smith” has his music collection stolen then goes into law to avenge wrongdoing etc.
No, I think Tambo has it right, if he follows through on the mission he’s set for himself: acquire a championship quality, top pairing blueliner.
Matt Carle is playing a lot of minutes in this Battle of Pennsylvania. Could he be snagged while teams are pre-occupied with Suter?
Man! What a game! Now the Canucks are up! Win baby or it’s a long damn summer. When does this dynasty start anyway?
f
Philly/Boston will/would be awesome
jake70,
That trade gives us a chance to draft Nathan McKinnon. From what I have heard is the next Crosby. Its a gamble but its a Gamble I would make.
hall horcoff yakupov (those wings on the same line is insane)
xxx rnh eberle
smyth xxx hemsky
eager belanger jones
gagner, mps, omark are bait for the big 2nd line lw and big tough minute center to play with Smyth and Hemmer. Lots of other assets to use in getting another couple of decent dmen (no need to hit a home run this summer) and just play dd 55 games next vear.
asiaoil,
With Gagners progression in his own zone, and the fact he is clearly better then Horc at O, i think I’d rather see the mythical 3 scoring lines (mentioned it a few days ago)
Hall-Gagner-Yakupov (all three play bigger then they are, and would prob get top checkers)
Harsky-Nuge-Eberle (will outscore in a crazy way)
Smyth-Horc-hemsky (tough minutes line. Hemsky adds needed skill)
Eager-Belanger-Jones (OK 4th line, Grit, can play 2nd toughs, and Belanger has to be better right?)
That is a fun lineup. No, it does not have the guns to fight it out like this pens-flyers series, but they are comparable to Detroit. Upgrade the D and we have a shot at playoffs.
Lander and MPS start in the minors. Giving them huge minutes, confidence and the first call ups when the inevitable injuries hit. And it also drives down Paarjvi’s next contract, thus adding a year or two of value on his deal. You can have Vandvelde as an extra forward, and possibly Petrell. You then have “grit and defensive awareness” to plug in, and if there is an injury to the top 2 lines then Smyth or Hemsky can move up and there is no issue.
Full court press for the young Shultz to pair with the veteran Shultz, and maybe a value add like a Zanon, or someone like that and we have decent depth. No top end pair, but solid.
I think it’s a question of semantics here Bruce.
Soft as opposed to Sandpaper. Think Horcoff vs. Brad Marchand etc.
Not Horcoff vs. Parros.
Horcoff is butter soft IMO, but that’s different than gutless. Same deal with Hemsky for the most part.
By saying Hemsky’s soft, it doesn’t discount the fact that he’s taken more punishment playing in the tough areas than you could reasonably ask an NHL player to do (via Regehr etc),…
However, yeah we’ve obviously had a need for top six forwards with some sandpaper to their game for what seems like forever now.
Where would you rate Horcs on a scale from 1 to Lucic?
THREE SCORING LINES?????????????????????
I was bored so I decided to look at players that finished the year with 70 hits, 35 blocked shots, and 35 takeaways. Hits for toughness, blocked shots for grit, and takeaways for defensive play. Its not perfect but gives a rough idea of some players with a wide range of skill. A lot of good players just missed the cut in one of the areas though.
46 players made the cut under those measures. Unfortunately only 3 are free agents next season: Pahlsson, Kelly and Winnik
Interesting that Glencross and Brodziak made the list. Brodziak’s giveaway/takeaway differential is incredible.
Also interesting that Ryan Jones made the list. I suspect we would regret losing him like we do with Broziak and Glencross.
Anaheim – Getzlaf
Boston – Kelly, Bergeron
Calgary – Glencross, Iginla
Chicago – Hossa
Colorado – Landeskog
Edmonton – Jones
Columbus – Umberger, Dorsett
Dallas – Benn, Fiddler, Ryder, Ribeiro
Florida – Weiss
Los Angeles – Kopitar, Richards
Minnesota – Brodziak
Montreal – Eller
Nashville – Fisher
New Jersey – Henrique
New York Islanders –Martin
New York Rangers – Dubinsky, Callahan, Stepan, Anisimov
Ottawa – Zack Smith
Philadelphia – Giroux, Matt Read
Phoenix – Vermette
Pittsburgh – Dupuis, Cooke
San Jose – Desjardins, Clowe, Winnik
St Louis – Berglund, Oshie, Backes
Tampa Bay – Malone, Stamkos
Vancouver – Burrows, Kesler, Pahlsson
Washington – Laich, Brouwer, Ward
Winnipeg – Wheeler
Traktor,
Brodziak. Glencross. Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.
It’s pretty easy to argue Paajarvi has already driven down his next contract.
He wrapped up the AHL regular season today with 0-0-0 -1 2SOG
34GP 7G 18A 25P 100 Shots SH% 7.0
As bad as that is, Pitlick appears to have fallen into an elevator shaft.
62GP 7G 16A 23P 130 shots SH% 5.4
Yeah sure – then miss out on Hall, RNH+Yakupov with these great role players.
*delusional Dynasty fan*
Bruce McCurdy,
Bruce what’s your take on Devan Dubnyk?
I was as cynical re Dubnyk as anyone around here until the last 5 games of the season when suddenly realised he’s not bad in a Markkinnen kind of way(give him an understanding defence and he can win, sort of).
He’s semi decent, if chronically flawed. What do you think, as an ex goalie? Would you be happy seeing him back next year?
The problem with playing Horcoff and Smyth vs other teams top lines is it means they will playing a ton of EV minutes. Hemsky has something left in the tank. Not so much other two. Horc is running on fumes.
If I’m the coach and I was forced with Edmonton’s current line up I would send out Horc and Belanger for every single D zone draw that I could, even if they were double shifting. I wouldn’t worry about line matching.
Then as soon as they got the puck out I would tell them to change.
I would start my top 2 two lines in the offensive zone every chance that I could, even if they were double shifting. Again, I wouldn’t worry about matching lines.
I know that setup isn’t very glamorous for Horc and Belanger but whatever. If they don’t accept that role ship them and find someone that will.
I like zone matching a lot more than I do matching lines. If we had Bolland or Hanzel I might view things differently.
You know that almost every player Pitlick’s age are still in juniors, right? He was fast-tracked to the AHL because he was drafted out of NCAA. If he played juniors again this year he would have posted huge numbers and everyone except you would be talking about how he is a blue chip prospect.
I’m pretty sure Pitlick’s 2nd half was a lot better than his first half as well.
Traktor my next upgrade was going to be Petrell out Winnik in. Winnik pushes the play in the right direction and can hold his own against above average competition while playing with below average teammates. He is also remarkably good in the faceoff circle for a winger. He wins puck battles.
Does anyone remember what was said about Brodziak when he was flushed? Lacked grit iirc, something they said Brule would bring.
First half 35, 4-6-10 .286
2nd half 27, 3-10-13 .481
Trak – if you can look down that list and seriously consider Jones as a deserving member of that group, well I don’t know what to tell you other than please don’t win the job of Oiler’s GM. No reasonable person judging by eye, number or both should accept more than that Jones is at best a replacement level player, as given his history on a good team and on the Oilers. I don’t see much has changed. If the Oiler’s trade him for anything other than a throw in at some point I would consider it a Sather.
There is a reason the Oilers lose. It is not Horcoff, Smyth, Belanger, the Trio, formerly Gilbert, formerly Whitney, Smid, Petry, Dubnyk, Schultz, Renney, Krueger, Stauffer, Tencer or Spector. It’s everyone else.
Where does the problem hide? The problems upstairs are the same as the problems on the ice.
I had the impression they thought Brodziaks grew on trees, and they were looking for another Mike Grier.
I like Jones more than most.
I also liked Brodziak and Glencross more than most and they made the list as well.
Thanks.
Looks like a young player is improving. Crazy.
Traktor,
I’m OK with lots of EV minutes for Smyth and Horcoff, as long as they don’t see much ice on the PP. Hemsky gets his extra minutes on the PP, and Smyth and Horc on the PK. Gagners line will get as much EV minutes, with the Nuge line getting butter soft zone starts and tons of PP, with probably Eberle on the PK as well.
1st PP = Hall, Nuge, Eberle, Whitney, Potter
2nd PP = Gagner, Hemsky, Yakupov (with the option to double shift any of Nuge or Eberle and only have 1 D or add Smyth to sit in front of net), Shultz (younger one)
PK:
Smyth-Horc
Belanger-Jones
Eberle/Gagner/Nuge/Hall (get them minutes dammit)
Belanger and jones are the reason we went from 29th to 14th
Smyth and Horcoff are the reason we are not better than 14th.
LT: pitlick was never going to be a blue chip.
desjardins junior curves say he was 45PT at 22.
but a 20G 40-45p two way third line center is championship team depth.
Well he didn’t get a lot of PP time in the Hat, so I don’t think we were expecting an impact scorer. Still, he scored well at evens in the WHL and I thought he’d do better this season. Came on at the end of the year and we’ll see about things in 12-13.
That 5.4% shooting percentage should be a major concern.
I’m OK with … No wait … I’m not. I’m not really OK with lots of EV minutes for Horcoff and Smyth. I want lots of EV minutes for the top six.
whale,
agreed, but someone has to play against the other teams top line, and that means our tough minutes line is going to see a lot of ice at evens. And as has been pointed out by LT and Willis and others, the kids aren’t ready for that level of responsibility. Gagner with Hall will do well in most situations, especially if they are facing the other teams 3rd line (in that they shouldn’t bleed shots against). It is to our benefit and the benefit of the Nuge and Ebs that they are protected, at lest in terms of zone start (see Sedins). The Belanger line along with the Horc line will see most of the D zone faceoffs, with gagners line sprinkled in. The Nuge should see most in the O zone and some neutral zone. You play to your strengths. Let Horcs line grind it out of the zone and then let the kids run. That in game management will give us a better shot at winning games. Especially at home.
you can protect lines, or you can give them the best chance to succeed. Either way, Nuge in the O, Gagner mostly O, Horc in the D and Belanger also lots of D zone starts.
DBO,
With some team , OK. With most, no – let them run. Next year let the other teams line match us. Period.
@Hunter: I like Dubnyk just fine. He’s gotten better every year since he was drafted, closest thing to a false step was the first couple months of this season when Khabibulin was out of his mind and DD couldn’t get any traction. But he bounced back hard with a strong second half.
Too soon? Little anxious here.
Cody Hodgson 2010-2011 (3rd year after draft) 10th Overall 2008
2010-11 Manitoba Moose AHL 52 17 13 30 14 -12 0.58 PPG (4th best PPG on the team)
MPS 2011-2012 (3rd year after draft) 10th Overall 2009
2011-12 Oklahoma City Barons AHL 33 7 18 25 4 9 0.76 PPG (highest PPG on the team)
Suddenly those numbers don’t look so bad with some actual context. I was really hoping you had turned a corner these last few days DSF and actually wanted to contribute to the conversation. Seems like you are still interested in cherry-picking certain stats and forming absolute conclusions from them in order to antagonize the people that visit this site.
Magnus is not a perfect prospect and he certainly needs to work on being more physically involved in the game (his shot is clearly not good enough for him to survive as a perimeter player) but trying to paint him as a huge disappointment is a bit much.
Even for you.
LA’s been playing dirty early. Interesting to see how this game goes.
That’s why my objective in the last thread was to take DSF through my position, proposition by proposition, to see if we could isolate our disagreement. He agreed with my first proposition, and then vanished.
(DSF, if you want to continue it, I’ll keep monitoring the last thread – no point in dragging that into this one as well, when there are all sorts of penetrating and insightful comments to be made about Shawn Horcoff.)
You realize Hodgson missed an entire season for back surgery after he was drafted, right?
You realize missing an entire season for a young player is a major impediment to development, right?
You realize coming back from a major injury is very difficult, right?
There’s some “actual context” for you.
it’s ugly in LA-I swear it’s 1977. Old time hockey. Eddie Shore.
DSF,
I agree, Hodgson is an inferior prospect to Paajarvi because he is more injury prone.
Lol
Like Hall?
It’ll be interesting to see how Hodgson produces with consistent top 6 minutes and PP time in Buffalo.
I’d wager he flirts with 30 goals and 60 points next season.
DSF,
I’d wager he flirts with 30 goals and 60 points next season
Paging Mr.Woodguy. Mr. Woodguy, please pick up the white courtesy phone
Finally, somebody caught Henrik with his head down! I can’t believe he’s back – Surely he’
s concussed.
If anybody needs to know why the Canucks are hated league wide they should watch this game.
Lappiere is a yapping chiwawa
Kesler is a diving puke
Burrows picking his spots again with Kopitar
LA is pissing it away though with there lacksidasical PP and Jeff Carter is a shadow of his old self.
Yes he missed a good chunk of time in his second year after he was drafted, at the same time MPS put up 34 points in the NHL while adjusting to life in NA. This year Hodgson did manage 41 points in 83 games, so he had a slightly better year than MPS did in his rookie season.
Also interesting to note the extreme drop-off in S% for Cody once he left the Canucks. 15.5% to 5.9% is looking like an elevator shaft to me. Perhaps being on a dominant team was inflating some of his numbers after all.
All I am saying DSF is its pretty early to start calling MPS a huge disappointment. Things have not gone as well for him as we would of hoped, but as Cody can tell you, there is only a certain amount of ice time to go around and sometimes you get passed by a better option. It will be up to MPS to adapt his game, but the kid is still young and should have some time to hopefully figure it out.
Oh my.
His production actually dropped in Buf and as mentioned above his S% plummeted. A full training camp should help him though, hopefully he is careful in the weight room…
The Hughson – Simpson homerism is on high tonight
Apropos of nothing in particular, but does anyone know if D. Sedin might overcome his injuries to play in Vancouver’s final game?
nice work by Colin Fraser and LA’s 4th line. Not as dominant as last year’s Clifford/Richardson/Simmonds combo, but they’ve created a bit of chaos in the Canucks end…
gogliano,
It was reported yesterday that he was out for the next two games. I know this because I posted the article in the Facebook feed as news that he was out for the remainder of the playoffs.
“Steve Smith”,
Thanks — his injuries have become Hodgson-esque, I guess.
Sutter needs to figure out a way to have Dustin Brown stay on the ice for the last 5 minutes of this game.
I wish the Oilers would have been able to have picked up Alec Martinez instead of Teubert in the Penner trade. He’s a horse out there.
Touching sign in the stands “LA Kings – Canada’s Team”
What a stupid fuck Edler is. Wow!
According to Simpson, it was the ice’s fault.
I’ll 2nd the Martinez comment – good skater
Mike Richards is putting on a clinic right now.
Jim Hughson is demanding they put more time on the clock. How unbiased of him.
3-0 assholes.
I’ll sleep well tonight
Lulz @ “2 girls, no cup”.
Dustin Brown is a bad, bad man.
Hard to imagine anyone would bet against him
Could be your Conn Smythe winner.
Dustin Brown is a surprise to me. I used to play pick-up hockey with him in the summertime, in Ithaca NY. He must have really been holding back because he didn’t seem very good to me at the time! But he must have been 16 or 17 years old then.
It could be that you are actually an amazing undiscovered NHL calibre talent and you are frittering away your productive years hanging out on the internet….
He’s a nice kid, and Ithaca is a great town. His little brother must be so proud of him. We used to chat about Dustin and I would always try to temper his enthusiasm. “Dustin is a little small, and not very fast, not a great team player, I wouldn’t get your hopes up.”
Looks like you won’t be getting a scouting job anytime soon.
Eberle and Blaine and a second? The thing is Oiler fans always seem to think a good player costs the moon, and every year we see them get traded for less than expected. Every situation is different. I hope they have a crack at a younger guy rather than fellows that will be on the slide in a few years. Lidstrom’s are rare. If they go UFA they need to avoid buying career years.
Gilbert is actually an easy one to figure out. He got a $2M raise (real money not cap number) this offseason and IMO the Oilers brass didn’t see the level of improvement playing with the likes of Hall and Eberle in his offensive output to warrant it, and felt that deal was an opportunity to add a different kind, yet important asset on the defensive side.
As for Horcoff, love the guy, he’s been on of my favorites for a long time, but the Oilers need a real 3rd line center. And a real 3rd line LW and RW too… I’d love to see the Smyth, Horcoff, Hemsky line (4th line?) feast on easy competition again.