TAYLOR HALL 11-12: POWDERFINGER

Few things in life inspire like a gifted hockey player as his skates cut ice and he drives to the net with abandon. Most of us will never know what it feels like–feet of clay and fear factor make it so–but watching it is an adrenaline filled release that is pure joy. Not many can do it, Taylor Hall was an expert as a teenager.

TAYLOR HALL 10-11

  • 5×5 points per 60: 1.78 (4th among regular forwards)
  • 5×4 points per 60: 3.27 (8th among regular forwards)
  • Qual Comp: 2nd toughest among regular forwards
  • Qual Team: 5th best teammates among regular forwards
  • Corsi Rel: 10.3 (best among regular forwards)
  • Zone Start: 52.0% (4th easiest among regular forwards)
  • Zone Finish: 51.2% (7th best among regular forwards)
  • Shots on goal/percentage: 186/11.8% (4th among F’s>100 shots)
  • Boxcars: 65gp, 22-20-42 (led the team in goals as a rookie)
  • Plus Minus: -9 on a team that was -52.

TAYLOR HALL 11-12

  • 5×5 points per 60: 2.07 (2nd among regular forwards)
  • 5×4 points per 60: 5.95 (2nd among regular forwards)
  • Qual Comp: 6th toughest among regular forwards
  • Qual Team: best teammates among regular forwards
  • Corsi Rel: 15.2 (best among regular forwards)
  • Zone Start: 56.5% (3rd easiest among regular forwards)
  • Zone Finish: 53.6% (2nd best among regular forwards)
  • Shots on goal/percentage: 207/13% (3rd among F’s>100 shots)
  • Boxcars: 61gp, 27-26-53 (led the team in PP goals-13)
  • Plus Minus: -3 on a team that was -26
  1. What do these numbers tell us? He’s a wonderful player, by eye and number. Hall’s CorsiRel has been team best since he got off the plane and he gives the team excellent offense. He’s still a kid too! His 2.07/60 at 5×5 is inside the league’s top 70 and he misses so many close putts it seems reasonable to suggest that in his prime Hall is going to be an enormous  5×5 player. His 5×4/60 number is nestled safely inside the league’s top 20.
  2. How could these numbers be better? Health. The only worry I have about Hall is injury. He’s a sublime, beautiful talent, absolute stud. However, he’s bleeding GP by season (38 in two seasons) and his injuries (ankle, shoulder, concussion) include some disconcerting words. I fear EDM may sign him to a long term deal and be left with Wendel Clark-style boxcars in seasons when Stanley beckons. It’s a concern.
  3. What is he good at? Pretty much anything he puts his mind to. Hall’s all reflex with a trigger, and the wide variety of ways he scores is perhaps the most heartening thing of all. He seems to be in the scoring zone all the time–there are times when he touches the puck three times in three different areas of the offensive zone during one sortie–and does a lot of things that put him in the batter’s box often.
  4. What are his top end skills? Speed, shot, effort, reflex, genetics, rubbery quality, balance, passing, quick release. The guy is also driven. I don’t know if that counts, but thought I’d mention it.
  5. Will they move him to center? A few people (Dennis King, Jason Gregor) have talked about that again recently and it does make some sense for this Oiler team. If strength up the middle is important–and we know it is–then a top 3C of Hall, RNH and Lander should give Edmonton outstanding production for years at the position.
  6. What else does he bring? This isn’t math related, but the Oilers seem to have more room to move when Hall is out there. Maybe it’s just an observation and has no real use as a weapon, but the guy cuts a swath and has defensemen on their heels when he flies into the zone. I think it might be worth a few easy goals per season for his linemates.
  7. What else is exceptional about him? Hall played injured. Quoting the player via tsn: “I’ve been playing with a pretty bad shoulder for most of this year and I’m excited to see what I can do after it’s fixed.” While playing injured–and as a teenager–he delivered NHL calibre offense and kept the puck going in the right direction.  We don’t know how much of a factor this injury has been to him, but assuming that there was some kind of negative that’s a massive item. What will he do healthy?
  8. Are there negatives aside from injury? He’s a little streaky and that sometimes inspires critical comments but overall Taylor Hall–when in the lineup–is the most dynamic player on the team.
  9. Renney protected him more this season. Not really. The biggest difference I believe came from his not playing with Horcoff this season–that would account for the Qual Comp. He got a push zone start both seasons and that makes sense unless you believe Ryan Jones is a better offensive player.
  10. So you’re going to gloss over the zone start? Hey, if Renney (or the new coach) wants to take a page from the Canucks and give him a Sedins80 zone start I’ll be fine with it.
  11. What would that mean to Horcoff? Certain death.
  12. Renney didn’t play him enough. Hall led all LW’s in TOI at evens and PP and he led all forwards in EV+PP TOI. He’ll play more next season–and he should join the other two kids and get more PP time–but Renney did try to protect him some and did start him often in the offensive zone.
  13. So Renney’s perfect? I don’t think Renney had a good handle on line chemistry all season, but am hesitant to be overly critical because he didn’t have the horses. How about we examine this issue during a later profile–say Sam Gagner?
  14. How could the Oilers get more from him? Well, since you’re asking. All three kids should get as much PP time as possible imo and if you’re going to double shift #4 on the 4line for crying out loud have a 4line that can do something with the opportunity. The Oilers 4th line was Death Valley this season.
  15. Can he score 40? Sure. Healthy, I think he can clear 40 goals for sure.
  16. What can he be? Of all the kids we’ll discuss, I don’t think we can put an outer marker on Hall yet. He could end up being a center and a PP dynamo or maybe he’s an EV strength monster and an outscorer. He’ll tell us. Just stay healthy young man.

  •  Prediction for 2011-12: 70, 32-28-60 (.857)
  • Actual 2010: 61, 27-26-53 (.869)
  • Take care, Taylor Hall

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77 Responses to "TAYLOR HALL 11-12: POWDERFINGER"

  1. stevezie says:

    Well, you’re 2 for 2 on picking the perfect Neil Young song for the player. Should we be worried about this unsustainable percentage?

  2. Bos8 says:

    It’s a Catch 22 with Hall – you put him at center, to take him off the boards and decrease the chances of injury. Other than Hemsky, who the hell is his winger that can keep up to him. Mind you I’d pay serious money to see MPS, Hall and Hemsky on one line.

    Renney kept forcing Hall onto the first line thereby simplifying coverage for other teams. The lead weights on this team are Smythe and Horcoff unless they accept third line roles.

    Right now, the only one that’s a keeper on the bottom six is Petrell and maybe Eager. I’m not suggesting whole sale changes, but upgrades as they become available. At the least Pitlick should get an honest shot next year on the fourth line.

    Oh and while they’re at it, upgrade the secondary coaching.

  3. TheOtherJohn says:

    He attacks with such ferocity!

    Have no doubt that if he stays healthy he will score 40 goals many times. But, at this point, his health is at least an “IF”. Think it goes to the first comment: “attack with ferocity”, that may lead to accumulated injuries.

    Would keep him on wing. Using his acceleration and speed n the attack

  4. nathan says:

    He’s pure competitive drive. So give him a role that leverages that drive in a healthy direction. As a centre he’d work harder to do the one thing he needs to be healthy. i.e. pay more attention to where everyone is on the ice. More time away from the boards at high speed would not hurt. If a coach does it right and orderly no matter how responsible you make this kid he’s always be one playoff whistle from the sheer abandon that breaks other team’s backs.

  5. godot10 says:

    You would take away from Taylor Hall’s major strength, his balls-to-the-walls attacking style, by loading him with the defensive responsibilities of a centre. It will also take away a lot of the fear and terror in opposing defensemen, since a centre typically comes from deeper and later. Hall can be a much more instinctual and reflexive player on wing than at centre.

    i.e. Moving him to centre is a moronic idea. You turn a top three left wing in the league into an average 1st line centre at best.

    Let someone else do the checking, like Lemaire did for Lafleur, like Kurri and Tikkanen did for Gretzky,

  6. ashley says:

    An excellent season from a superb young talent.

    However, I think there is some room for criticism in his game. I would like to see him make better decisions when entering the ozone (at mach 10). His most common decision is to unload a shot, half of which get partially blocked or deflected into the netting, and the other half are sort of off balance, long range, unscreened shots that have a very low percentage of going in.

    Getting a shot on net is valuable, to be sure, but he is usually there all by himself with no rebounders in place. His shots do produce rebounds, but no one is fast enough to be in the front of the net to cash.

    He is starting to make better decisions. His previous move of steaming up the boards and then trying to go wide around the defence was abandoned about midseason. The blueliners have watched him play. They know to back off a bit so he can’t beat them wide.

    So I think he has insight and ability to adapt, and will eventually start pulling up after entering the ozone and hitting the trailers. He attracts so much attention with his speed, there are often two teammates coming into the zone after him and only one defencemen between the two trailers and the net. That’s where the money is.

    Nonetheless, a great season for the young man.

  7. LMHF#1 says:

    If you were able to move Hall to C, you’d play him with a winger who’s used to the center role in the defensive zone (#83 has done this for much of his career, even with Horcoff) and #4 would get to play to his actual strength, which is being the guy who enters the zone with the puck (but didn’t have to rush it up the whole way) and loops for a passing chance while still being able to whistle a shot through. He has his worst games when he’s simply busting down the wing over-and-over.

    Hall will always score a ton of goals from the side of the net and in close. Where he needs to improve, oddly enough, are clear chances and breakaways. He’s gone from firing over the net all the time to only shooting five hole and taking way too many backhands. Send the kid some tape of Bure, Selanne and Bondra scoring goals. Learn him up.

  8. LMHF#1 says:

    DSF:
    CSS final rankings:

    http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=79331

    I really hope Henrik Samuelsson is on the Oilers’ radar.

  9. gd says:

    godot10:
    You would take away from Taylor Hall’s major strength, his balls-to-the-walls attacking style, by loading him with the defensive responsibilities of a centre.It will also take away a lot of the fear and terror in opposing defensemen, since a centre typically comes from deeper and later.Hall can be a much more instinctual and reflexive player on wing than at centre.

    i.e. Moving him to centre is a moronic idea. You turn a top three left wing in the league into an average 1st line centre at best.

    Let someone else do the checking, like Lemaire did for Lafleur, like Kurri and Tikkanen did for Gretzky,

    Godot,

    I think his greatest strength is what is going to shorten his career. My belief is the defensive responsibilities at C will help him play more under control and force him to pick his spots better. This move should only be done if they think he can be a top 20 in the league Centre, otherwise I’m assuming they will leave him on the wing. I think it is an experiment they should try.

  10. Lewis Grant says:

    LT, well done on the reasonable expectations. Other than being out for 20 games instead of 10 (something that is quite impossible to predict), you were pretty much dead on in goals, assists, and points per game.

    Let’s hope you’re also right about him scoring 40 goals. He was on a 27-goal pace last year and a 36-goal pace this year, so if Hall stays healthy, I think you will be.

  11. sliderule says:

    To avoid injury Hall has to get his stickup.when he feels the hit coming bring up the stick and remove a tooth or two like Messier did.

    The Nuge did that to Salo the other night after getting high sticked earlier.Salo will be a little more careful around the Nuge next year

  12. Ducey says:

    DSF:
    CSS final rankings:

    http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=79331

    Interesting that they have Murray at 2, ahead of Grigorenko. They also have Reinhart way down at 10, so that would put him out of the top 10 when you factor in Europeans.

  13. Ducey says:

    sliderule:
    To avoid injury Hall has to get his stickup.when he feels the hit coming bring up the stick and remove a tooth or two like Messier did.

    The Nuge did that to Salo the other night after getting high stickedearlier.Salo will be a little more careful around the Nuge next year

    Yeah. But he got nailed twice doing the windup down low in his own zone. Because he curls he creates a blind spot that the pinching defenseman are looking to take advantage of. If he can alter this he should be a lot safer.

  14. godot10 says:

    What will help prevent Hall from getting injured is a good defence that can actually get him the puck in stride and give him an even bigger jump on the opposing defensemen, and make him more difficult to hit. (Team Murray).

    The Oilers have Nugent-Hopkins. Much less need to succumb to the temptation to try to change Hall.

    Quit being like silly women who believe they can change their bad boy boyfriends. It is really dumb to try to over-mold an elite hockey player. Let them be what they are and fill around them. Don’t try forcing a square peg into a round hole.

    Hall has a mind honed to attack, not a mind honed to defend. He is NOT best-suited to centre. You let this pony run if you want to maximize him.

  15. bill needle says:

    Enjoy the Neil Young motif for these year-enders. How do you choose between the two-thirds of the Oilers roster who deserve “Piece of Crap?

  16. Woodguy says:

    LMHF#1: I really hope Henrik Samuelsson is on the Oilers’ radar.

    I couldn’t find Samuelsson on either list.

    Haven’t seen him live, but when listening to those who have, the report is usually glowing.

    Good skater, good hands, big, mean streak.

    Think he’ll be there at 32ish?

    Edit:

    Just saw him at 75 on the NA list. Listening to those who know way more than I do about Juniors, some have him in the 1st round.

  17. LMHF#1 says:

    Woodguy: I couldn’t find Samuelsson on either list.

    Haven’t seen him live, but when listening to those who have, the report is usually glowing.

    Good skater, good hands, big, mean streak.

    Think he’ll be there at 32ish?

    Edit:

    Just saw him at 75 on the NA list.Listening to those who know way more than I do about Juniors, some have him in the 1st round.

    I’ve only seen him a couple times, but both were solid. Combine that with the genes, size and the stats in a year where he changed continents and didn’t get prime ice time…looks to be something.

  18. stevezie says:

    bill needle:
    Enjoy the Neil Young motif for these year-enders. How do you choose between the two-thirds of the Oilers roster who deserve “Piece of Crap?

    I love that song. I’m also looking forward to who gets my favourite Neil song, “F*cking Up.” I have a hunch, but I don’t want to jinx it.

  19. slopitch says:

    Hall is an absolute stud. Im hoping like hell he can stay healthy because thats the only thing that could hold him back.

    Excellent article by @camcharron about Jamie Benn and stats. Has a good quote from Dave Tippet. Damn it makes me hope Tippet shakes lose from PHO and ends up here.

    “We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can’t move the puck.

    “Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn’t defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he’s making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he’s only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman.”

  20. Woodguy says:

    Some quotes and tweets from garbage bag day so far: (taking some quotes from video, other tweets from Tencer and Principe.)

    “We were all sitting here saying the same thing last year. At some point it has to turn into something, it can’t all be hope and promise… I think next year has to be a playoff year” – Taylor Hall

    “”We would fall apart in games.If we weren’t leading after two..we just say screw it and kind of mailed it in.That’s unacceptable” – Taylor Hall

    Hall says a lot of good things, here’s his avail:

    http://video.oilers.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=4&id=171157

    “”It certainly time to end the rebuild. It’s about time that we win more games.” – Ryan Whitney

    I hope management is listening to their players.

    Also Smytty not happy that he’s not signed.

    “I thought by now things would be resolved. I had hopes by the trade deadline a deal would be done.” – Ryan Smyth on contract status

    Not sure what he’s asking, given his age, he should understand that 1 year contracts are to be expected.

  21. DSF says:

    Woodguy,

    It appears Tambellini may have a riot on his hands next season if he doesn’t improve the team in the off season.

    And just so it doesn’t get lost….DB-19, AH-9

  22. Traktor says:

    “Everyone knows it’s us older guys who need to play better. The young guys have stepped up and contributed.” – Ryan Whitney

    Horcoff, Belanger, Hemsky, and Whitney, basically our entire veteran core, were absolute shit this year. Not much else needs to be said.

  23. gcw_rocks says:

    LMHF#1,

    You would have to think so given he plays for the Oil Kings. But I was surprised to see CSS rank him 75th. I had expected him to be ranked in the top 60.

  24. "Steve Smith" says:

    Traktor: Horcoff, Belanger, Hemsky, and Whitney, basically our entire veteran core, were absolute shit this year.,

    On the upside, Gilbert was terrific.

    Not much else needs to be said.

    I’ll take you up on that.

  25. Traktor says:

    “Steve Smith”:

    I’ll take you up on that.

    As long as everyone agrees that Edmonton’s veteran core is terrible there isn’t much to add.

    In other news, star Swedish goaltender Viktor Fasth has signed with the Ducks.

  26. "Steve Smith" says:

    Traktor: In other news, star Swedish goaltender Viktor Fasth has signed with the Ducks.

    …he added.

  27. Traktor says:

    “Steve Smith”: .

    As long as everyone agrees that Edmonton’s veteran core is terrible there isn’t much to add.

  28. Traktor says:

    Mark Spector says Hemsky and Whitney should lose their A’s to Hall and Eberle.

  29. "Steve Smith" says:

    Traktor,

    Tip: When committing the “appeal to authority” logical fallacy…at least make sure it’s an authority to which you’re appealing.

  30. Dipstick says:

    Woodguy: I couldn’t find Samuelsson on either list.

    Haven’t seen him live, but when listening to those who have, the report is usually glowing.

    Good skater, good hands, big, mean streak.

    Think he’ll be there at 32ish?

    Edit:

    Just saw him at 75 on the NA list.Listening to those who know way more than I do about Juniors, some have him in the 1st round.

    His previous ranking of 33 was as a European Skater. No idea if this is an improvement or a down grade. Either of the rankings has me scratching my head. Then again, I am completely unqualified to assess prospects.

  31. Traktor says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    Traktor,

    Tip: When committing the “appeal to authority” logical fallacy…at least make sure it’s an authority to which you’re appealing.

    You are not an authority to judge an authority and I’m not interested in your “tips”.

  32. TheOtherJohn says:

    Traktor

    Was that the same Mark Spector that said Barker was the Oilers 3rd best defenceman? Same guy? Not sure Barker would be 3rd best defender in OKC.

    Sure hope Whitney/Gregor are right that summer power skating is all that Whitney needs to return to being a top 4 defender because if not we have another hole in our roster to fill.

  33. Traktor says:

    Other John

    All reporters in all locations say dumb things from time to time. Some more than others.

    Nevertheless, some in the media are talking about it. Matty agreed that it was time to give Hall and Eberle a letter.

  34. "Steve Smith" says:

    Traktor,

    I don’t think that “nevertheless” means what you think that it means.

  35. Woodguy says:

    Traktor:
    “Everyone knows it’s us older guys who need to play better. The young guys have stepped up and contributed.” – Ryan Whitney

    Horcoff, Belanger, Hemsky, and Whitney, basically our entire veteran core, were absolute shit this year. Not much else needs to be said.

    I think you have to throw Khabby in there too.

    Hemsky should have a bounce back year.
    Whitney needs new ankle ligaments.
    Horcoff needs be 5 years younger.
    Belanger, like Hemsky had the worst season in his career in terms of a per game basis.
    Khabby needs to not be here next year.

  36. Woodguy says:

    Traktor:
    Mark Spector says Hemsky and Whitney should lose their A’s to Hall and Eberle.

    Spector is on the record as saying Barker is a top 3 Dman.

  37. Traktor says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    Traktor,

    I don’t think that “nevertheless” means what you think that it means.

    I don’t think you know what it means.

  38. Traktor says:

    Woodguy: Spector is on the record as saying Barker is a top 3 Dman.

    Lowetide is on record saying that Horcoff and Pouliot are quality. That doesn’t mean we dismiss everything else he says.

  39. "Steve Smith" says:

    Traktor,

    You would be on record as stating, in a burst of profanity, that you were never coming back here, but Lowetide did you the courtesy of deleting it. That doesn’t mean, in and of itself, that I dismiss the rest of what you say, but it’s certainly a contributor.

  40. DSF says:

    Renney’s newser delayed an hour.

    Something is afoot.

    Now, we return you to Trak And Steve….and do try the veal.

  41. Traktor says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    Traktor,

    You would be on record as stating, in a burst of profanity, that you were never coming back here, but Lowetide did you the courtesy of deleting it.That doesn’t mean, in and of itself, that I dismiss the rest of what you say, but it’s certainly a contributor.

    I don’t seek your approval so I’m fine if you dismiss what I say.

    I think the point stands that members of the media are questioning Edmonton’s leadership and feel it is time for the younger players to take a bigger role in the room. Listening to Hall’s interview today I can’t say I disagree.

  42. Ribs says:

    I think Spector has been eyeing Don Cherry’s job lately. He says some wacky stuff.

  43. stevezie says:

    “Steve Smith”,

    To the degree that there is even a point being argued here, I’m on your side, but I have to point out the irony of you criticising a classic “appeal to authority” fallacy you commited a text book ad hominem one.

    On further review, it was Woodguy who said it, not Steve Smith, and I suppose you could make a pretty good case that Spector’s previous comments on the same subject (hockey) are a legitimate reason to dismiss his current comments on that subject, and not fallacious at all.

    Now that I’ve destroyed my own credibility, the problem wasn’t the veterns’ “leadership”, it was their on-ice play. It’s kind of known that if you’re not playing well yourself, you should usually keep your mouth shut, isn’t it? All this talk of letters and who gets them is a bunch of nothin’. All the A’s mean is who talks to the refs, the leaders are going to lead regardless of what’s on their jersey. We can’t really think Eberle was holding something back because he didn’t have an A, can we? Wouldn’t that qualify as insanity?

  44. melancholyculkin says:

    Off topic, but I think there’s a real chance LA takes out VAN in the first round.

    Kings have a better score close and score adjusted Fenwick. Since the deadline, LA is almost 5 points better by the latter.

    Performance in the last 30 games of a season is a bit of a better predictor than the first 70.

    Kings allow almost 4 less shots a game than VAN. Canucks do take more shots, but less than one per game.

    VAN has a substantially better EV goal differential, +25 to -3, but considering LA's shot totals I think a lot of that difference can be attributed to some bad luck. Kings allowed less goals 5×5, they just couldn’t finish.

    Should be a good series. Looking at the numbers I’m mighty tempted to place a couple bets on LA depending on the odds.

  45. DSF says:

    melancholyculkin:
    Off topic, but I think there’s a real chance LA takes out VAN in the first round.

    Kings have a better score close and score tied Fenwick. Since the deadline, <a href=’http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2012/4/9/2936018/shot-differential-score-adjusted-fenwick-nhl-playoffs&quot; title = “LA is nearly 5 points better by the latter.”

    <a href=”http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2011/3/4/1987571/further-to-in-season-momentum&quot; title=”Performance in the last 30 games of a season” is a bit of a better predictor than the first 70.

    Kings allow almost 4 less shots a game than VAN. Canucks do take more shots, but less than one.

    VAN has a substantially better EV goal differential, +25 to -3, but considering LA’s shot totals I think a lot of that difference can be attributed to some bad luck. Kings allowed less goals 5×5, they just couldn’t finish.

    Should be a good series. Looking at the numbers I’m mighty tempted to place a couple bets on LA depending on the odds.

    The real key to LA’s potential success is the increase they saw in goal scoring when Jeff Carter arrived.

    They scored 3.25 GPG after the deadline compared to 2.29 GPG for the entire season.

  46. melancholyculkin says:

    Clear victory standings:

    Van: 22-10, .688
    LA: 18-11, .621

    Third and fourth in the conference respectively.

  47. melancholyculkin says:

    DSF,

    Yeah, LA’s been ridiculously hot since Carter came over. They’ve outshot their opponents in 13 straight games now, and 8 of those were against playoff teams.

  48. melancholyculkin says:

    Also, subtracting Jack Johnson has probably been just as beneficial as adding Carter.

    Check this out: http://drivingplay.blogspot.ca/2012/04/how-much-do-kings-miss-jack-johnson.html

    That makes me nervous because trading for Jack Johnson is totally something the Oilers would do.

  49. DSF says:

    melancholyculkin:
    DSF,

    Yeah, LA’s been ridiculously hot since Carter came over. They’ve outshot their opponents in 13 straight games now, and 8 of those were against playoff teams.

    They just needed that one last piece I think.

    Lots of talent there…could be a dangerous playoff team.

  50. Professor Q says:

    Love Renney’s tongue-in-cheek comment he just made about reffing haha

  51. LMHF#1 says:

    The way he spoke about it, Renney doesn’t understand how this squad could have imposed its will. Hold the puck. Skate like hell. Kill em on the PP. The nights they did that, they won. When they got distracted…no good.

    Thinking that he needs a team of bangers and crashers isn’t going to get the Oilers anywhere.

  52. Woodguy says:

    Traktor: Lowetide is on record saying that Horcoff and Pouliot are quality. That doesn’t mean we dismiss everything else he says.

    You need to realize dates when you quote someone.

    You are referencing discussions about Pouliot and Horcoff from 3+ years ago.

    Things change over time, including opinions.

    Spector made his pronouncement about Barker in 2012, within the last 4 months.

    We are all allowed to be wrong, but Spector is so venomous with people who disagree with him that its fun to make sure he wears it.

  53. Woodguy says:

    stevezie,

    On further review, it was Woodguy who said it, not Steve Smith, and I suppose you could make a pretty good case that Spector’s previous comments on the same subject (hockey) are a legitimate reason to dismiss his current comments on that subject, and not fallacious at all.

    Agreed that my comment wasn’t ad hominem, I am using his opinion on hockey to discuss his opinion on hockey.

  54. Woodguy says:

    DSF,

    The line on that series open at LAK +130 and the public is on VAN heavy and pushed it to LAK +170

    I think there’s real value in LAK +170.

    I think VAN wins the series, but they are -200 and that’s just too much.

  55. Woodguy says:

    Glad Renney said he doesn’t want to talk about rebuild anymore either.

    TIme to win games on a regular basis.

    If Tambellini fails to add value to the roster this summer like he has the previous 3, the apologists will be out of reasons to keep him.

    Its not the ground floor of the re-build.

    You have Hall, RNH, Eberle and whatever they get this year.

    Add DD, Petry, Smid, 2 years of Hemsky.

    That’s a lot of the toughest positions to fill on a hockey team that are already filled.

    He only has 2-3 tough spots left to fill to get them to a playoff contender, then the tweeking of the roster can start.

    Can’t tweek a roster with holes, you need to fill them.

  56. stevezie says:

    Especially with Quick in net. Add him to an L.A Kings team whose roster looks for all the world like it should have no problems scoring, and Vancouver should be nervous. They’re no slouches themselves, but L.A has to be one of the better 8th place teams in recent memory. I think L.A would smoke Chicago, San Jose or Phoenix. the only question is if they’re so good, how come they finished so low? I didn’t watch enough Kings games to say for sure, but I’d say they lacked speed up front, or we could just blame Jack Johnson.

  57. "Steve Smith" says:

    Woodguy,

    I’d say that it was still strictly speaking ad hominem, since arguments are supposed to be evaluated on their merits, and the person making the argument is never part of the argument’s merits.

    The trouble is that proceeding from first principles takes a lot of time, which is why both ad hominem and appeals to authority enjoy understandably widespread use. If a blue ribbon panel of economists unanimously predicts that a tax plan will have a certain effect, it’s technically fallacious to take their word for it, but the alternative approach – identify the relevant first principles and verify whether the economists’ conclusions follow properly from those first principles – can sometimes require picking up a graduate degree or two.

  58. bookje says:

    Woodguy:

    If Tambellini fails to add value to the roster this summer like he has the previous 3, the apologists will be out of reasons to keep him.

    Its not the ground floor of the re-build.

    You have Hall, RNH, Eberle and whatever they get this year.

    Add DD, Petry, Smid, 2 years of Hemsky.

    That’s a lot of the toughest positions to fill on a hockey team that are already filled.

    He only has 2-3 tough spots left to fill to get them to a playoff contender, then the tweeking of the roster can start.

    Let me speak for the apologists.

    The reason I am somewhat of an apologise is that the Roster is actually pretty good with just a few holes to fill – i.e. the team is pretty close to being built.

    If Tambellini fails to fill at least 2 of the 3 main weak spots on the team, then I am no longer interested in being an apologist. A lot of my ‘appolgising’ was an effort to try and explain things like the Foster signing being part of a good ‘tank job’. One good thing is that I think we now can be absolutely certain about what the team’s real goals are – the Playoffs. The whole reason for appologising – the tank job – is now done.

    I am hoping that it is the apologists and not the critics who are correct about where things are at.

  59. jake70 says:

    -Smyth’s comments in his scrum I thought were interesting. Very curious to see what happens there, will he be an Oiler in September?

    -Just got back from a playoff pool draft. Everyone was commenting on how unsure they were of the picks. Some were nervous about picking Canucks, an upset may be in the pipeline. Ovechkin went 10th overall. And, this to DSF, not one panther was picked out the 80 players chosen…oh well.

  60. stevezie says:

    jake70,

    Well yeah, but it’s still impressive they went from 3rd last to playoffs, even if they’re gonna get killed.

  61. Marc says:

    For those thinking about wagering on LA, the view of a Kings season ticket holder (and Bruins fan):

    “The Kings have a well-balanced team with an outstanding goalie, and they chase the puck pretty relentlessly (at least lately). But you can push them around, and if you want to make a cheap run at Kopitar, Quick or anyone else, you definitely don’t have to worry about someone making you pay. After sitting through half of their home games this season, that’s their biggest flaw (that I can see, anyway).”

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/23431/28-days-later-pushing-around-the-kings

    I think Vancouver is a bad match up for them. I would have liked them better against St Louis.

    The other great quote from Simmons:

    “Nobody captures their identity better than Dustin Penner, their frustrating 6-foot-3 forward who’s evolved into something of a whipping boy for the Kings faithful. One of the biggest guys on the team, Penner barely throws checks, much less punches. Every time he wades into the corner and goes through the motions of not hitting someone, you hear this chorus of pissed-off “COME ON, PENNER!” hisses coming from every direction. It’s actually taken a life of its own, at least in my section, where fans instinctively yell “COME ON, PENNER!” at other Kings who don’t finish checks. “

  62. godot10 says:

    stevezie:
    Especially with Quick in net. Add him to an L.A Kings team whose roster looks for all the world like it should have no problems scoring, and Vancouver should be nervous. They’re no slouches themselves, but L.A has to be one of the better 8th place teams in recent memory. I think L.A would smoke Chicago, San Jose or Phoenix. the only question is if they’re so good, how come they finished so low? I didn’t watch enough Kings games to say for sure, but I’d say they lacked speed up front, or we could just blame Jack Johnson.

    Daryl Sutter is a far better coach than Terry Murray. Sutter is a lousy GM, but he is a good coach as long as he doesn’t have to develop the talent. Given him a group of veteran players, and he is a good bet to get reasonably optimized results.

  63. godot10 says:

    jake70:
    -Smyth’s comments in his scrum I thought were interesting.Very curious to see what happens there, will he be an Oiler in September?

    -Just got back from a playoff pool draft.Everyone was commenting on how unsure they were of the picks. Some were nervous about picking Canucks, an upset may be in the pipeline. Ovechkin went 10th overall. And, this toDSF, not one panther was picked out the 80players chosen…oh well.

    Smyth wants term on a 35+ contract. The Oilers, rightly, don’t want to give it to him. Smyth should be happy with one year contracts going forward with NMC’s.

    Read “I feel like I still have a lot to give” as “I want more than one year on a 35+ contract”, and “I want to be paid as a 2nd liner, not a third liner.” Don Meehan is an a@#$@3.

    I’d be fairly generous on a 1-year NMC deal…i.e. $3.5 million, but it would be take it or leave it by May 15.

  64. Ribs says:

    book¡e: One good thing is that I think we now can be absolutely certain about what the team’s real goals are – the Playoffs. The whole reason for appologising – the tank job – is now done.

    I won’t be convinced that they are done rebuilding until holes are being filled. They’ve said today the same things they said last year at this time. It doesn’t mean much.

  65. delooper says:

    The thing I always noticed about Penner when he played for the Oilers was that the Oilers spent very little time playing in the defensive zone when Penner was on the ice. Sure he’s maybe not the kind of macho, traditional, big and brutal guy. But the right things happened when he was playing. And the play always seemed to be going the right direction. Whenever the opposing team managed to get the puck out of their defensive zone, it seemed like Penner turned things around, right quick.

  66. jake70 says:

    Nice touch by the Bluejays at the home opener…..honoring Gary Carter….

  67. DSF says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    Woodguy,

    I’d say that it was still strictly speaking ad hominem, since arguments are supposed to be evaluated on their merits, and the person making the argument is never part of the argument’s merits.

    The trouble is that proceeding from first principles takes a lot of time, which is why both ad hominem and appeals to authority enjoy understandably widespread use.If a blue ribbon panel of economists unanimously predicts that a tax plan will have a certain effect, it’s technically fallacious to take their word for it, but the alternative approach – identify the relevant first principles and verify whether the economists’ conclusions follow properly from those first principles – can sometimes require picking up a graduate degree or two.

    Of course, since economists are so often wrong (and often horribly so) and, since many of the same economists have a graduate degree or two, your theory leaks water like a Texan at the Alamo.

  68. "Steve Smith" says:

    DSF,

    Which theory is that? That people with a graduate degree or two are not often wrong? Because if so, I’m going to put to you that “your” does not mean what you think that it means.

  69. DSF says:

    jake70:
    -Smyth’s comments in his scrum I thought were interesting.Very curious to see what happens there, will he be an Oiler in September?

    -Just got back from a playoff pool draft.Everyone was commenting on how unsure they were of the picks. Some were nervous about picking Canucks, an upset may be in the pipeline. Ovechkin went 10th overall. And, this toDSF, not one panther was picked out the 80players chosen…oh well.

    If the herd is heading in one direction it is often fortuitous to take another path.

    I doubt I would take any Panthers either but, then, I never expected them to go from last place to cup winners in one season.

    With their prospect depth they’re likely a ways away from that but I think Tallon has dispelled the myth that you need 6 years to rebuild a hockey team (and so has Ottawa.)

  70. DSF says:

    "Steve Smith":
    DSF,

    Which theory is that?That people with a graduate degree or two are not often wrong?Because if so, I’m going to put to you that “your” does not mean what you think that it means.

    I guess in the absence of Traktor, I’ll have to jump on stage here and say I don’t think “graduate degree” means what you think it means.

  71. vishcosity says:

    Too bad that Penner isn’t an Oiler anymore. One of my favourite Neil Young songs is sugar mountain.

  72. jake70 says:

    DSF: If the herd is heading in one direction it is often fortuitous to take another path.

    I doubt I would take any Panthers either but, then, I never expected them to go from last place to cup winners in one season.

    With their prospect depth they’re likely a ways away from that but I think Tallon has dispelled the myth that you need 6 years to rebuild a hockey team (and so has Ottawa.)

    Your arguments that I have read supporting Tallon’s ability have been generally pretty good. And no panthers going in the pool shows not much confidence in that team doing anything in the playoffs, but they are in the 2nd season and hats off to Tallon. After our draft, I reviewed all the 16 teams I had printed out and the only team with no players scratched off was Florida, chuckled to myself and thought that I would mention it here to needle a bit.

  73. Schitzo says:

    Penner may surprise people in the playoffs. Although I said that about this season because it’s a contract year, and look where that got me.

  74. DSF says:

    jake70: Your arguments that I have read supporting Tallon’s ability have been generally pretty good.And no panthers going in the pool shows not much confidence in that team doing anything in the playoffs, but they are in the 2nd season and hats off to Tallon. After our draft, I reviewed all the 16 teams I had printed out and the only team with no players scratched off was Florida, chuckled to myself and thought that I would mention it here to needle a bit.

    Well, we’ve seen what an 8th seed can do in the playoffs and Dineen seems like a pretty good coach.

    Getting past NJ might be the hardest part of a run for them.

    The Devils quietly put up a 102 point season and will be very tough if they get goaltending.

  75. delooper says:

    The Cowboy Junkies cover is lovely.

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