TEEMU HARTIKAINEN 11-12: AFTER THE GOLD RUSH
The Edmonton Oilers are acquiring the hard stuff via #1 overall picks, but where are the role players going to come from. After the gold rush, how do they fill the roster?
Teemu Hartikainen 10-11
- 5×5 points per 60: 1.04 (13th among forwards but DNQ)
- 5×4 points per 60: 4.21 (2nd among forwards but DNQ)
- Qual Comp: 16th toughest faced among forwards but DNQ
- Qual Team: worst available teammates among forwards but DNQ
- Corsi Rel: .9 (9th best among forwards but DNQ)
- Zone Start: 55.9% (2nd easiest among forwards but DNQ)
- Zone Finish: 60.8% (best among regular forwards but DNQ)
- Shots on goal/percentage: 21/14.3% (tied for 2nd best among F’s but DNQ)
- Boxcars: 12gp, 3-2-5
- Plus Minus: -3 on a team that was -52
Teemu Hartikainen 11-12
- 5×5 points per 60: 1.36 (13th among forwards but DNQ)
- 5×4 points per 60: nil
- Qual Comp: 2nd toughest faced among forwards but DNQ
- Qual Team: 5th best available teammates among forwards but DNQ
- Corsi Rel: -4.5 (11th best among forwards but DNQ)
- Zone Start: 56.0% (5th easiest among forwards but DNQ)
- Zone Finish: 49.0% (8th best among regular forwards but DNQ)
- Shots on goal/percentage: 24/8.3% (12th best among F’s but DNQ)
- Boxcars: 17gp, 2-3-5 +1
- Plus Minus: +1 on a team that was -26
- What do these numbers tell us? He’s about where he was a year ago, knocking on the door. Hartikainen shows flashes during his cups of coffee but they’re never going to really know about him until they see 500 at-bats in a single season.
- How could they be better? Ordinarily with young players in this situation I’ll say he needs to grab the job, do something that will get him noticed by the coach and a job as a regular. However, Hartikainen has done that both times he’s gotten a spring recall, so now I’m wondering if there’s something they see, a hitch in his giddyup.
- What might that be? Slow starts to the season and foot speed. He’s improved footspeed, but coach Renney likes guys who can skate well. I don’t really see any other reason to hold him back at this point, not with the guys directly in front of him. The slow starts are something you’d like to see him overcome, maybe come to camp this fall and force his way onto the roster.
- Is he ready? I think so. Hartikainen’s going to have lessons to learn when becoming an NHL regular, but at the minor league level he’s certainly established himself as a consistent player.
- Will he score enough? Great question, that’s why you give him 550 ab’s. Hartikainen has averaged over 20 goals per 82 games so far in the AHL, so there’s talent there. What’s more, of his 31 goals, 17 are at even strength, and his shooting percentage is between 11.75 and 12.8 in his two AHL seasons.
- What role would you like to see him in? There’s a few areas I think he could have a lash. The wingers clearly ahead of him are Hall, Eberle, Smyth (UFA), Hemsky and I’d suggest the Oilers will make every effort to save Paajarvi. So, with Nail also in the picture, Hartikainen might be able to grab a 3line job at times and could certainly be in the mix for 4line employment.
- I don’t understand your math. Who are your regular wingers for 12-13? Okay, if we assume they both sign Smyth and draft Nail, then the 9 wingers are Hall-Eberle, Yakupov-Hemsky, Smyth-Paajarvi, Hartikainen-Jones, Eager. I think Hartikainen has enough talent to move past both Eager and Jones, although both are veterans and have good footspeed.
- What about the enforcer? I think the Oilers will have to choose between the Eager and Hordichuk positions this summer if they ever have a hope of having a legit 4line that doesn’t bleed freely.
- So, just for my own curiosity, who are your 12-13 forwards at the moment? Sure. Nuge, Gagner, Horcoff, Belanger, Lander at center. Hall, Nail, Smyth, Hartikainen, Eager/Hordichuk on LW and then Hemsky, Eberle, Paajarvi and Jones on RW.
- Is he blocked if they sign Smyth? I don’t think he could fill Smyth’s shoes, so no. Hartikainen has to establish himself as an NHL player, but replacing a quality veteran isn’t his next step. He may eventually grow into a useful top 6 winger but we’re jumping a few steps.
- He isn’t a fighter. Yes, I know. Why they keep drafting these hockey players is a complete mystery.
- Don’t be an ass. They need ugly up front. No, they need hockey players everywhere. Hartikainen is a hockey player, and he can hit and be big and isn’t shy about contact. He’s an interesting prospect for this team.
- So he’d knock someone’s block off if they hit Eberle, Jones or the Russian ruble? I think he’d contribute to a scrum, but he’s not Lucic 2.0.
- How many hits did he have? No idea. The hits stat is not accurate and doesn’t measure effectiveness in any useful way. It’s like counting the number of seconds to the bench after the player decides to make a line change. Actually, that would be a more useful stat than hits.
- Well, the answer is 36 hits in 17 games. Is that good?
- Well it’s better than Ryan Jones. Is he the Gretzky of this stat? I honestly don’t know. Does the NHL have a “hits per game” or “hits per 60″ stat?
- No. Okay, who leads the league in hits?
- Matt Martin. Who?
- Let’s move on. Would you seriously take him over Jones? I think there are good reasons to believe Hartikainen would be a better match for the young cluster. He’s bigger, their offense appears to be about equal now and the Finn will probably push his 5×5/60 as he gets established.
- What role is his outer marker? 20+ goals while providing a physical element on the wing, playing with the skilled men and getting some PP time where he goes to the net and blocks out the sun.
- So, Ryan Smyth 2.0? I think people underrate Ryan Smyth, that guy has tremendous ability that gets credited to grit or hard work. Sure, he has those things but Ryan Smyth is an outstanding talent. I don’t think we can assume Hartikainen or anyone on or near the current roster can replace or duplicate it anytime soon.
- But Hartikainen is an option for some of the things Smyth does for a team. Certainly, and Smyth would likely be a wonderful mentor if the two played an entire season on the same team.
NHL Prediction for 11-12: 45, 7-8-15 (.333)
Actual 2011: 17, 2-3-5 (.294)
We have a distinct shortage of left wingers in Alberta. Usually have to import them from those socialist European countries.
My small contribution to election season.
Thank you for #14. It’s like a mirage in the desert. You’re still dying of thirst but you feel better. There is some doofus sitting in the stands and going “There’s a hit and one more, nah that’s half a hit etc” There should be a Lowecryout about it “What does it mean” I swear Jones has a clicker in his pocket on hits and appeals to said doofus about extra hits. Hits and finishing checks – Gah
Day late and a dollar short “Finishing a check”.
Poor Teddy Peckman, nobody told him about the caveat “Hit and mostly, you’re out of the play”
I wouldn’t mind seeing Hartikanen spend another 40 games in the AHL. There is no rush. Sign a vet to take his place, and then flip the vet at the deadline and bring up Harksy for good.
And Lander definitely needs more time in the minors. He only played 16 games there. As an aspiring defensive center he needs to get as many tough minute at bats as possible. He is not going to learn much playing 8 minutes a night in the NHL on the 4th line. Let him play 20 minutes a night in the top 6 there.
Lander should have opened the season in the AHL. They did it backwards.
How playing top six minutes in a weaker league translates into a stronger defensive center is beyond me. How about better coaching and veteran defensive wingers. How about video breakdown and analysis post game?
If Harski could become a Lauri Korpikoski (Finn with Polish name), that would be a win.
Korpikoski is 6’1 200lbs and is very tough in the tough areas.
Faster than Harski, but plays a similar game.
Korpikoski scored 23 in the AHL as a 21 year old.
His NHL stats look like:
68gp 6g 8a 14pts -10 – 22 year old year
71gp 5g 6a 11pts -10 – 23 year old year
79gp 19g 21a 40pts +17 -24 year old year
82gp 17g 20a 37pts +3 -25year old year
I’d be pretty pleased if Harski could follow that career arc, and I think he has it in him.
Korpikoski obviously has a coach who understands how to progress a young player.
In the last 3 years he went from 4th toughs as a 23year old, 3rd toughs as 24 year old, and took on 2nd toughs this year.
Nice progression for a nice player.
No reason Harski can’t start on the 4th line and work his way up.
Having an actual hockey player on the 4th line would be a nice change too.
Ducey,
He is not going to learn much playing 8 minutes a night in the NHL on the 4th line
While I agree that Lander needs to excel at an AHL tough minute role before graduating to the NHL, I vehemently disagree that playing young players on the 4th line is a waste.
Coaches can get a player used to the NHL without throwing them to the wolves and if the player excels, the coach has the option of moving him up the line up.
Keeps players on the lines above motivated as well to see a good young player on the 4th line trying to take their job.
Good teams do this.
Bad teams don’t.
Damn. PHX/CHI. 5 games 5 overtimes.
Totally agree – But goddamnit have a game plan. Have an evaluation, a mission statement
“Go out there and fly Lander but first let us attach these lead weights”.
Lander basically got a small percentage of learning experience and growth from this past year. He had no one to learn from. This Oiler team has no continuity. Any good pee wee coach does this all the time.
This is why I’m so high on Schultz, he’s a hell of a teacher just by being on the ice.
Sign a Moen or Prust to play with Lander and Hartikainen and coach them to become an actual option for a shut down line.
I really take issue with Hockey’s “work hard”. Totally stupid.
Smid always worked hard. Took him too many years to get efficient. You think that putting him in a different environment might have cut a few years in his development? Players leave the Oilers and develop, coincidence? Hall blasts up the ice and hammers a shot on net from the boards over and over. Minimum results. Is he dumb or is there no one to show him other options?
I’ve always subscribed to the axiom “You show me lazy, I’ll show you efficient. How about some coachesthat teach lazy hockey. Buchberger in his career – worked hard, skated miles and lost many fights. Unless you want to use him as the bad example, he is not qualified.
Step one is good but who’s going to coach them? You could say at OKC but the NHL is a whole nother level and you have to learn there as well. Things that worked in the AHL often don’t work higher up. Until the OIlers hire some technicians for the coaching staff ala Huddy they’re working hard with few results for all the hard work.
The Oilers are such a strong team that they can’t find a roster spot for Hartikainen.
Meanwhile Shawn Horcoff plays 20 minutes a game.
Against the toughest opposition available. Yes, let’s send the kids out against the Sedins. That’ll be fun!
“13. So he’d knock someone’s block off if they hit Eberle, Jones or the Russian ruble?”
We’re not really looking for Hartikainen to protect Ryan Jones, are we?
Watching Neil Young sing After the Gold Rush at the opening ceremonies for the 2010 Olympics was a pretty special moment.
I would rather lose with players that might have a future than devote time to washed up scrubs.
Edmonton has 2 good wingers that can’t even find a roster spot and then RNH and a bunch of shitty centers in the middle.
It makes zero sense.
If management aren’t going to play Harty and MPS then they should trade them for a good center.
Mantra – Draft best player available
For the Oiler team or for stats?
Do stats translate to wins?
Do you upgrade center or add to strength?
How did Gagner do with Hall and Hemsky, arguably top twenty wingers?
I would suggest that, if Galchenyuk is recovered from his injury, drafting Yakupov is creating an even more unbalanced team. Hemsky at 5 mil is relegated to the checking line. Ad nightmarem ad infinitum.
It’s simple. You draft Yakupov and trade one of our other wingers. There is also the option of trading Gagner and moving Hall to center.
Edmonton could even trade Gags and Hemmer for a center AND move Hall to center and have 3 dynamite players down the middle.
A good center can turn a line into quality by himself. Edmonton would no longer have strength on the wings but I’m confident that MPS, Harty and Omark would produce offensively if they got to play with RNH or Hall.
LT,
With San Jose disappearing from the playoffs again, I’m wondering what changes they may be making in the off season. They have plenty of attractive defense pieces…
Agreed. I also wonder if their coach is in play this spring.
Oilers D prospects
Klefbom
Marincin
Musil
Gernat
Teubert
Blain
Plante
Davidson
Fedun
Bigos
Oilers C prospects
Lander
Ewanyk
Pitlick
Martindale
Just a prime example of how the Oilers are being built backwards.
Virtually every good team is built from the back end out and strong down the middle.
Questionable goaltending √
Weak defense √
Below average centre depth √
A plethora of wingers √
The most difficult positions to fill are top pairing defensemen and high end centres.
6 years out of the playoffs and the Oilers have come up with zero top pairing D prospects, one promising centre and a brace of talented wingers who will be demanding big paydays before the other areas have been adequately addressed.
Solution?
Draft another winger.
If Tambellini has any smarts, he should already be assessing which of Eberle, Hall or Yakupov he will need to trade to fill other holes.
Counting on Hall to move to centre and thrive is a huge risk in trying to hammer yet one more square peg into a round hole.
We’ve seen that movie before.
I don’t have problem with young player playing on the 4th line, but they should have proven themselves at a lower level first. The only guy that has come close among Oilers prospects is VDV.
The centre issue isn’t one that has to be solved this summer.
The main reason that it might be addressed is that it is easier to trade Gagner without contract than with one.
Another reason is that the centre situation in the league might be in flux again, as Pittsburgh has to start making decisions about the big three, and Rick Nash on the move is going to be an impetus for a lot of chess pieces moving around.
Crosby and Staal each have one year left. Malkin has two. Pittsburgh has to decide on their strategic course this summer.
Is the #1 plus something enough to get Jordan Staal out of Pittsburgh? (Though the Oilers would have to make sure it was a sign/extend and trade to do the deal.)
Klefbom has as much 1st pairing potential as any D prospect not playing in the NHL. Most top pairing players in the NHL developed into that role after being drafted outside the 1st round. On the flip side, many high first round picks didn’t develop into top pairing D. The best bet is to draft a lot of D and hope for the best.
Hall played center in junior before being converted to winger.
Edmonton doesn’t need to trade Hall, Eberle and Yakupov to “fill holes”. That is just dumb.
The rest I agree with.
Here is the Norris winners from the last 6 years..
Keith 54th overall
Chara 56th overall
Lidstrom 54th overall
NHL minutes leader – Girardi – Undrafted
Other top defensemen
Weber 49th overall
Timonen 250th overall
Yandle 105th overall
Steit 262nd overall
Boyle undrafted
Edler 91st overall
Campbell 156th overall
Byfuglien 245th overall
Subban 43rd overall
Giordano undrafted
Visnovsky 118th overall
If Edmonton doesn’t have a single prospect with top pairing potential then the same can be said about pretty much every team. We know that isn’t true though.. most teams will end up developing some top end talent.. and most of them will be drafted outside the 1st round.
I think one of the keys is what happens in the two years after draft day. EDM signed Klefbom and he’ll stay in the SEL, I wonder if the AHL is a better plan. Either way, I do like the patience we’re seeing in regard to the young blue.
Here is a look at last years SC winner:
Boychuk – 2nd round
McQuaid – 2nd round
Chara – 3rd round
Seidenberg – 6th round
Hnidy – 7th round
Kaberle – 8th round
Ference – 8th round
Really?
Here’s my list of the top 20 young defensemen (yours may vary) and the round where they were drafted
Erik Karlsson – 1st
Pietrangleo – 1st
Shattenkirk – 1st
Suter – 1st
Seabrook – 1st
Del Zotto – 1st
Doughty – 1st
Phaneuf – 1st
Johnson – 1st
Ekman- Larsson – 1st
Leddy – 1st
Kulikov – 1st
Gardiner – 1st
Bogosian – 1st
Subban -2nd
Weber – 2nd
Keith – 2nd
Letang -3rd
Edler – 3rd
Yandle – 4th
It would appear that finding an elite defenseman in a later round is the exception, not the rule.
Your assertion that Klefbom has as much first pairing potential as any prospect not playing in the NHL is absurd.
Not only is there nothing in his performance to indicate that, but I would think another first round pick who just scored 72 points +37 in 50 OHL games is just one example of more than a few who might be a little more likely to make it.
Dougie Hamilton.
Well of you narrow it down to “young defensemen” obviously 1st rounders will do better because the late bloomers haven’t developed yet. All you are doing is misrepresenting the truth that most top NHL defensemen get drafted outside the 1st round.
As for Klefbom, he was named the best defensemen in the WJC. Common sense tells me that if Klefbom is named best defensemen under 20, in a tournament that features the best players in the world not playing in the NHL then Klefbom would have first pairing pairing potential… unless nobody in the world has 1st pairing potential.
Dougie Hamilton is a good player, no doubt.
Go Traktor!
My sense is building a D is becoming the equivalent to building a pitching staff in baseball. Get as many strong young arms as possible and develop them as smartly as possible. Now we just have to find the hockey equivalent of Leo Mazzone.
Name your list of “top NHL defensemen”.
20 please.
We’ve already seen how deceptive a European player performing in a short tournament like the WJC can be.
It’s pretty easy to look good beating up on Norway…much more difficult to play pro hockey in North America.
Hemsky didn’t have teams lining up, to snap him up at the deadline. Gagner doesn’t get you a bigger more talented center. Horcoff and Smyth are diminishing returns, too good and not good enough – getting older rapidly. So other than the top four forwards, who are the keepers that perform according to their assigned roles and get the team to the top echelon at an established time line? In my view there is only one and that is Petrell. Did his job after adapting to a different league. Others, nada. Potential out the ying yang in the lower ranks, a lot of up arrows, no reality check. And that’s with Smid and Petry establishing themselves. If Hall is the future center then get off the dime and create some order in all this chaos. Dithers and co.
Previous WJC All-Stars
2010/2011
Ryan Ellis
Dmitri Orlov
2009/2010
Pietrangelo
Carlson
2008/2009
Subban
Karlsson
2007/2008
Hedman
Doughty
2006/2007
Letang
E. Johnson
2005/2006
Bourdon
J. Johnson
2004/2005
Phaneuf
Suter
Looks like Klefbom is in solid company. AND he is a first round pick.
No potential though.
2011-2012 Top 20 D at even strength based pts for, SF/SA, zone starts QComp +/-, QTeam +/-.
1. Ryan McDonagh
2. Zdeno Chara
3. Eric Karlsson
4. Drew Doughty
5. Keith Yandle
6. Alex Pietreangelo
7. Brent Burns
8. Brent Seabrook
9. Karl Alzner
10. Kimmo Timmonen
11. Kris Letang
12. Nikita Nikitin
13. Tobias Enstrom
14. Johnny Boychuk
15. Brad Stuart
16. Andrej Meszaros
17. Carlo Colaiavcovo
18. Paul Martin
19. Kevin Shattenkirk
20. Francois Beauchamin
I’m not going to list who I think is the 20 best defensemen because its subjective but I will point out that 36/60 of the top scoring defensemen were drafted outside of the 1st round.
60% majority would seem to indicate that you don’t need to draft someone in the first round in order for them to have a chance of playing on the first pairing.
It makes you wonder if trading a mid first rounder for two second rounders is a smart idea if a team has a need for defensemen.
Chim music.
Going to be a great 3rd period.
Traktor,
Of course he has potential, no one said he didn’t.
I would be really concerned though with his lack of offense (2PTS in 33GP) if you’re pencilling him in as a top pairing defender.
Maybe the offence will come…maybe it won’t but there are very few top pairing D who can’t score.
Both Karlsson and Hedman outscored him by a considerable margin in Sweden and made the jump to the NHL as teenagers so I guess we can assume it’s likely that Klefbom ranks below them as prospects. This coming season should tell us a lot more.
While I don’t disagree with LT that the Oilers should exercise patience with Klefbom, betting on him to be a top pairing defenseman in 3-5 years is pretty risky IMO.
To me, acquiring a sure bet on D should be Oilers’ Job One.
Nice goal by Jason Chimera. You know, he’s the kind of player Oilers should be targeting if they really want to make the playoffs.
Phoenix have a few good players too, like M.A. Pouliot, and Gilbert Brule.
Unfortunately, the game is not played entirely at even strength.
Wait a minute, I thought it was.
Isn’t that why Hall and the Nuge are bums?
New Redline Report:
http://tinyurl.com/7emujge
Does it get frustrating to constantly ignore sensible arguments DSF? You ability to look at reason and then mock it is quite fascinating. I would say that you do it to piss others off, but you continual denial of certain things.
You are correct DSF, defensive talent can be found in the first round; see Drew Doughty or Alex Petriangelo. But there are also a lot of busts, see Bryan Berard (solid, but not spectacular by any means) or Cam Barker (enough said). Drafting defenseman in the first round is not as sure fire as forwards, plain and simple. So while the young talent you stated does consist of a lot of 1st rounders, talented defenseman can be found throughout the draft. It is just their timeline to the show that will greatly differ. Would like to see that list 5 years from now, and players with players from the same age group who have made it to the show. I believe it will look a lot different. Example, I feel Petry will project to be better than Subban; size, skating and puck-handling are all there, just needs more time to but it together. Different timeline than Subban, and not an readily employable NHLer as fast, but doesn’t mean that talent is not there.
Klefbom has talent, WJC showed that. May he never be an offensive juggernaut in the NHL? Quite possibly yes. Doesn’t mean he can’t be an effective NHLer. He showed at the WJC that he was an effective player both ways. These type of players do not have any room in the current NHL then under your reasoning?
And you are right, the whole game is not played at ES. Only about 85-75% of this. As such, those who can play a game that translates to the majority of the way the game is played are not as effective as those who can play the other 25% better.
See how perversed that above paragraph is. It is not only wrong, but has little reasoning to it.
Furthermore, not everyone needs to be a top-20 NHL talent at their position. They just need to be “talented”. I saw Gernat play a game this year, and lordy, easy to see why some are so high on him. Great vision, good wheels, sees the ice very well, makes a lot of right hockey plays, just a solid player. Will he ever be a sure fire top-20 NHL defenseman? No, probably not. But could he become a very effective NHL defenseman? Hells yeah, and here is hoping he does. What is wrong with Gernat becoming that then?
I guess you can’t go around stating that Klefbom is not likely becoming an NHL player, when he has continually shown to be more often than not trending in the right direction, then at the same time say teams should have picked up on Jannik Hansen because he was always trending in the right direction when all others thought he would not become an NHL player. Yes, Hansen has better production than Klefbom, and showed it earlier on. But Klefbom has also shown to continual hold his own when given the opportunity. Isn’t that what you want from a developing player, growing at every step he takes?
As for your young defenseman, you forgot at 28 year-old (upper end of young, I know), who was selected in the 6th round but I would rather have any day over Phaneuf or Kulikov at this moment. His name: Tom Gilbert. But then again, he is not a first rounder so why use him in your discussion right? Only makes your stated list look less valid than it is, I know.
But then again, we have differing views on the matter. And if I know you well enough from your comments, any view differing from your own is not the right one, no matter how valid it may be.
mattwatt,
So many strawmen in your argument, I’ll just ignore most of it can concentrate on whether or not I said “Klefbom is not likely to be an NHL player”.
Didn’t say it…don’t believe it.
The whole point of my post, which apparently has gone right over your head, is that betting on Klefbom to be a top pairing defender is risky.
You may not think so but it’s a bet the Oilers, at the moment, can’t afford to lose since they need one so desperately.
And, if you think Tom Gilbert at the age of 28, looks anything like a top pairing defenseman on a championship team, you have very low standards,
It is all about winning a championship you know.
DSF, would contracted at one time to work for the Iraqi governments communication department during the gulf confilct? Feel you would have been well suited for the job, telling the people of Iraq how the “infidels will be crushed” while the tanks are rolling into Baghdad.
To say the Oilers do not have any young defenseman with top pairing potential is silly. Hell, we saw one in Petry just get promoted this year. Out of the other 8 or so in the system, good chance that one of them will make become top pairing potential, and likely a few of them top 4. They have all shown to have some level of talent, and we know that defenseman work on different timelines than forwards, so seems strange to say there is nothing there. There is something there; it just won’t be here tomorrow.
Also, winning teams don’t necessarily need talented centers, they just need talent throughout. Many state how the Penguins are deep up the middle, and they are, but others forget the fact the the Flyers are deeper throughout their forward positions, and it showed. When you have a lot of players that can make great plays, it is likely that more great plays will be made. Simple as that. Whether they play center or not, does not matter. Just as long as they can play.
The infidels are on the run!!!!
RR seems to confirm the general consensus that the #1 pick has special value this year insofar as the rest of the class is weak. They’ve also latched on to the hot commodity, Teravainen (at #4!).
If the Oil really want to deal the #1 it needs to be for a real NHL body. Murray et al. seem like coinflips and 10s or Jacks.
…from Mothra.
Tom Gilbert can play defenseman on a championship winning team, this I do know.
Throw Dennis Seidenberg into the waters in Edmonton, and see how he swims. Willing to bet he needs more arm floaters than Gilbert did. Yet Seidenberg was on a championship winning team, how did that happen? Maybe because the Bruins have great depth at all 3 positions, all throughout their roster. That is how you win championship, not by just individual players.
As for Klefbom, he may not become a top pairing defenseman, you may be right. However, it ignores the fact that the Oilers do not have some defenseman prospects that look appealling when in fact they do. Not everyone has to be a top 20 player, they just have to be “good” players.
Dennis Seidenberg proves this. Not the greatest NHL defenseman, but a good one. And he helped his team win. Put Gilbert on other teams solid teams, and I bet you would see that he helps those teams win. Not his fault he has been stuck in the NHL on subpar clubs.
Loved your post LT about how you would buy that guy a beer. Makes me chuckle thinking about it.
I wouldn’t trade Yakupov straight up for Jordan Staal….highly probable multiple 40 goal scorer for an elite checker who scores 20? No thanks. Lots easier to find elite checkers than elite scorers…
There you go rambling along in other directions will nilly.
If you have a team of “good players” in the NHL, you will be average.
Average in the NHL is actually quite bad.
Seidenberg works just fine as long as you have a Chara.
Do the Oilers have a Chara?
No they don’t.
They need one.
Doesn’t matter how may 10 and jacks you have when the other guys have aces and kings. You lose.
That was my point.
Sincerely,
Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf
*Please note there was no reference to Queens in the above post.
Loved that guy. He had more balls than Saddam I’ll say that, hung in there while the tanks were rumbling down his street. You have to respect that.
At the same time, Yakupov isn’t considered to be as good as Hall or Seguin, let alone a Stamkos or an Ovechkin. Tambellini has said as much and I think that reflects the general consensus about him.
I think those two facts make it a near certainty that Edmonton keep the pick and take Yakupov. Edmonton will demand a lot to move down given that Yakupov is so much better than everyone else in his draft class, but at the same time I think teams won’t want to give up a high end player plus their first round pick to take a guy who projects to be one of the weaker first overall picks in recent years.
Marc,
I’m not so certain that Yakupov isn’t as good as Hall/Seguin,
A lot of the concerns have to do with his size being unable to handle the style of game he plays.
This kid, who posted better numbers than Stamkos at the same age, didn’t put up astronomical numbers this year. But if you look closer , his PPG is BETTER than last year and he did it while not being the beneficiary of Galchenyuk’s(another top 5 pick) beautiful passes. He likely would have posted even better numbers playing with him.
DSF,
Lets start by looking at the 60 guys who played top pairing minutes in the NHL this year. Their average draft position of the 56 who were drafted, 71.
The average draft position of top 2 d for teams that made the playoffs – 71. 3 of the 36 were never drafted. That includes your guy Jason Garrison.
Lets try the 75 young Dmen (28 or younger) who played top 150 minutes this season, 4 were undrafted, average draft pick was 68.
Your list of all these great young defenceman was classic cherry picking. Where do these guys go, Jason Garrison, Josh Gorges, Dan Girardi, Marc-Eduoard Vlasic, Matt Carle, Dustin Byfuglien, Nikita Nikitin, Travis Hamonic, Trevor Daley, Mark Fayne, Andrew McDonald, and Alex Goloigoski go? Not to mention you completely missed Ryan McDonagh and Jay Bouwmeester. .
Dustin Brown with a nice dive. He should play FOR Vancouver
Samuelsson just scored a greasy goal to put the Oil Kings up 2. Guy has some game + size + mean.
Rieder just had a 2 sh goal shift
Also, thank god we didn’t take McLrath.
I would say this is false.
Chicago? Nope
Detroit? Nope
St Louis? Nope
Washington? Nope
Philadelphia? Nope
etc
In manycases worth mentioning the goaltending came along after the forwards or D were in place. Usually via trade.
You need good players right through the roster but I don’t think it matters much if that starts in goal.
You’re joking, right?
Have they changed the rules so that you get two goals if you score shorthanded? I don’t understand.
Also, if the Oilers trade the #1 I hope it is for a player straight up. Why ask for multiple assets? But I hope they keep him just because endowment effects means that comparable players won’t be shaking loose from other teams unless their are question marks on the other end.
I see by the boxscores that he had two shorthanded goals on the same penalty. I don’t think I’ve seen that before.
I think we might have a player.
Is it socially acceptable to be excited about this kid yet?
How demoralizing it must be to have your PP end and be down by 2 additional goals.
Come to think of it, I don’t think GRETZKY or ORR ever scored 2 shorthanded goals on one penalty. Amirite?
Rieder is having a heck of a season.
So I took a – very brief – look at the OHL top 10, where he sits 10th, to see where some of these other guys went in the draft, or possibly be up for 2012.
#9, right above him is Seth Griffith.
GP G A Pts PIM +/-
68 45 40 85 49 24
Rieder:
60 42 42 84 25 22
Same size, weight, both RW
Buddy fell right through last year, so if Rieder was a bargain in the 4th what the heck happened to this guy? They’re ~ twins.
Seth doesn’t show up on the CS NA skaters list at all this year. Be interesting to see what happens with him.
And I really miss last week’s LA Kings.
Also only 6 days apart in age.
Lowetide,
He actually didn’t do much on either goal, but I have seen him take on 6’7″ Tinordi on the boards and come out with the puck.
Did DSF just accuse somebody of strawmen arguments?
Awesome.
Since we’re all watching Canada’s team tonight…
When the Blackhawks anointed Corey Crawford as their starter a year ago, he had 73 career games, including a 7 game stretch in the playoffs with a .927 SV% and a 2.21 GAA. His career SV% was .918.
Cory Schneider is 27 years old has played 68 career games. His career SV% is .928. I’m excluding his playoffs because I think he only has 2 career starts despite 7 GP headed into tonight… too much of a pain in the ass to get the exact numbers.
Crawford saw his SV% this year ring in at .903, and is one of the big reasons the Hawks find themselves down 3-2, having given up 2 junk goals in OT.
While Schneider saw a few “big” starts this year, he’s generally been a backup for his numbers.
The lesson? Vancouver should be very careful about trading away an all-star goalie who just took them to the SCF to make room for a guy with 68 career GP.
I hope they’re not.
Schneider might be real.
Or he might regress when he faces the big guns and is playing every second night.
68 games isn’t enough to know either way.
C’mon LA.
Another 6-1 win for the Oil Kings. Gernat is gonna play in this building for a long time. Samuelsson could easily join him. Superb game from Ulf’s kid.
Oh, good grief.
Go look at the defensemen those teams deployed.
Tom Gilbert or his ilk wasn’t one of them
The infidels are fleeing the into the gutter where they belong!!!!
Kings tie it up. Infidels!
I love listening to Hughson and Simpson call a Dys game. They are about as objective as Scully with the Dodgers or Tommy Heinsohn and the Celtics.
Lets go Kings!!!!
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is that 2012 might be remembered as the changing of the guard in the Western Conference. This conference has been RULED by the Wings, Sharks, Ducks, Hawks and Canucks since the lockout. The other 10 teams have only had two conference finals between them compared to an average of two each for the Big 5.
Nashville and St. Louis clearly have passed San Jose and Detroit and i would say their windows have now closed, joining Anaheim. Phoenix and Los Angeles look like they’ve taken that next step. Vancouver will be back (and might not be dead yet) and Chicago just needs to fix their goaltending, but for the first time in forever winds of change are blowing out West.
Crazy shit happening in the East too but that conference has been less settled and I kinda feel the best two teams just happened to play each other. Boston…we’ll see but it’s really tough to climb the mountain two years in a row. The rest of the conference is pure vanilla.
Suter to Detroit would screw most of that up.
They keep popping up like Taliban.
Two heavyweights slugging it out.
Great hockey.
DSF,
You said successful teams are built from the backend out. The back end starts with the goaltender. Cabbiesmacker is saying that you are thus wrong in that these teams didn’t have the goaltender in place as they rebuilt.
I want you to tell me which of these guys you think is better than Tom Gilbert:
Marc-Andre Bourdon, Nicklas Grossman, Erik Gustafsson, Pavel Kubina, Andres Lilja, Andrej Mezsaros. Those guys are 4-9 on the Flyers. So to say Gilbert wouldn’t play in Philadelphia is crap.
I’d take every one of them with the possible exception of Bourdon over Gilbert.
Gilbert is strange hill to die on considering he was found expendable by on the the worst defensive teams in the entire league.
Stay classy Vancouver.
DSF,
Did you enjoy those 5 extra games Vancouver got to play?
I agree, the Oilers stole Schultz from Minnesota.
Yep.
Great games.
Hell yah! and Stoll yet to! A small bit of satisfaction for an Oilers fan for this year.
Stealing second pairing defensemen isn’t brain surgery.
So sad if that is what it takes.
DSF,
How do you feel about the Dys playing 5 more games than the Oilers this year?
Vancouver had a good run. Edmonton will win their 6th cup before Vancouver wins their 1st.
Given the narrative building off of last year’s Canucks run and their early and definitive exit this year, I’m curious to see whether they shake things up. I’ll be surprised if there are changes given Van management but don’t underestimate the power of hockey lore in Canada (how many months will hear that this is not a team built for the playoffs?).
At least Zack Kassian will help them get past the Bruins.
Hell of a game. Whenever I see these hardfought, physical, fast series with great goaltending like this one or the St. Louis series I think how bad would the Oilers lose against these teams? Obviously everybody raises their level of play come playoff time, but I just cringe thinking about how the Oilers as they’re currently constructed would fair.
I’m guessing they’d be outscored about 20-2 in 4 games in these type of series against teams that play this physical…. and they’d likely have to call up 4 or 5 guys due to injury.
Canucks are fine. They need some tweaking but will be the favorite to win the NW again by a wide margin. Game 1 of this series killed them.
Just fine.
I would expect that’s a situation that will continue for many years to come.
Any astute observer would be able to see how far the Oilers are from even belonging on the same ice as either of these teams.
I’ve been saying for a long time that the Kings are going to be a powerhouse in the WC.
Considering their prospect depth is better than the Oilers and their current team is far superior, any Oiler fan who finds some sort of satisfaction in the Kings’ win should be very, very afraid.
Brilliant.
healthy scratch too.
They could take the season off, which they did, and still win the NW.
Gillis is a very smart man.
Bad day for hockey pools.
Go Ottawa!
Have fun Albertans tomorrow in the election, should be interesting and “wild”.
Fine like the Sharks are fine? They’re on that track.
Kassian is almost three years younger than Sammy Snowpants.
Vancouver will be fine.. just not good enough to win a cup.
They should trade for Joe Thornton.
Actually, I find satisfaction in any Canucks loss, especially if it ends their season. Seeing as Stoll gave the finishing blow is a nice little bonus.
Like the Kings roster though – Stoll, Greene, and the Fat Man make it even easier to pull for them.
Except for Carter – what the hell has happened to him?
cool
It is all about winning a championship you know.
Yes it is.
The Canucks likely have 3 or 4 years to do that depending on what Gillis does.
He’s a smart guy.
Don’t count him out.
I keep hearing how smart Gillis is but if Tambo had traded a 22 yr old scoring centre for a 20 yr old project who was scratched in their final game of a series where they scored just 8 goals in 5 games and their window for cup contention might be less than 2 years, the Oilogosphere would be unforgiving.
That move, plus the Luongo contract, the Ballard trade and maybe even signing Malhotra for 3yrs at 2.5Mill to win faceoffs shows he might not be the genius he gets credit for, plus 90% of the core was there before he got there.
I just hope Vignault takes the fall for this, as I think he is the best option for the Oil.
If you say so.
Ballard was fantastic in the series, Malhotra hasn’t been the same since he almost lost an eye and Hodgson likely wouldn’t have been a factor.
The Luongo contract has become an issue but the test of Gillis will be how he deals with it.
In the meantime, Tambellini has the Horcoff, Hemsky, Khabibulin, Whitney, Jones, Belanger, Sutton, Eager and Potter messes to deal with.
Every one of them was a bad move.
How fortunate then, that he is blessed with such a dizzying intellect.
I would wager Tambellini will take the mess he and Lowe created and make it worse.
That;s what they do,
Watch.
Please tell us more about the brilliance of the Canucks and how everything is proceeding according to plan. If you could also share the map of the parade route for this spring, that would be immensely helpful. Oh how I wish I had been born a Vancouver fan.
In other news…in the AHL playoffs.
Magnus Paajarvi:
3GP 0G 1A 1P
SOG 7
SH% 0
Not sure what you want to hear.
The Canucks will be a factor in the WC for years to come.
The Oilers won’t.
Is that enough?
He won one more playoff game this year than Tamby. Genius.
Gillis will go out a get a few more cheap pukes. They just need to dive and agitate more. That will do it.
It is sufficient to bask in the radiance of Gillis’ aura of brilliance, and of course the commensurate glow of their most ardent supporters. We benighted few are blessed by such penetrating analysis and trenchant commentary. Truly, your karma is ascendant.
Thank you also for pointing out the wretched MPS. Oh how I wish the Oilers had drafted the legendary Jordan Schroeder instead.
If you think the Wings, Sharks, Canucks and likely the Hawks are done and the Oilers have an opportunity because those teams lost in the first round, you don’t know much about hockey,
All it really means is the Preds, the Blues and the Coyotes have become better.
Doesn’t mean the Oilers are any closer to icing an actual NHL team.
Until they address their horrible defense, goaltending and dreadful bottom 6, they’re a third tier team.
Ask Toronto.
Alas, I have lost face.
I can only hope that you will continue to visit here and uplift our understanding, particularly by way of the teachings of the Vancouver Canucks and their innumerable triumphs. That is the path to enlightenment.
story
Ah DSF, I so admire your consistency. You manage to be both an obnoxious winner and an obnoxious loser. That is such a gift. If you can find some cherry picked stats to make your point you feel free to use them. If one of your arguments is exposed as the garbage they usually are then you resort to authority – your own.
We can all see the rot setting in with the Canucks. They hit their peak and now its slip slide and away. The nearer they get to their destination the more they slip slide and away. You claim to be an Oilers fan but you are so clearly just a Canuck troll. Enjoy your one playoff win this year.
Anybody who can rave about Tallon and then not put Jason Garrison on his list of best young D-men just because of where he was drafted, or rather where he wasn’t is a special kind of blind. Not to mention Dan Girardi and his omission from your all seeing guaranteed to enlighten list of top 20 young D. Anybody who doesn’t get that Girardi is one of the top ten D-men in the game today is probably capable of believing many equally stupid things, like Tom Gilbert wouldn’t play on the Flyers.
In other news…in the AHL playoffs.
This comment just proves you are a troll, and try to rile up Oiler fans.
The blog would be a better place without you, no question.
Get a life man.
DSF,
If thinks that Gilbert could not play in Philadelphia’s top 4 (or 2really for that matter), you are not really discussing hockey anymore, but rather being abrasive for the sake of argument.
Does it get tiring, constantly climbing the water tower with a can of paint to defend your honor?
As for the Canucks, trading Hodgson was just plain stupid. A centre who has some top 6 upside for a bottom 6 winger (3 pts in 21 games) is not a good move, both in the short and long-term.
The Sedins slowed down a bit this year, as did Kesler. Burrows and Edler will be UFA’s next summer. Acquiring Booth and his 3 more years remaining at 4.25M was also poor management.
That’s not to say the Canucks are done, but this may have been their peak. Not every team gets opportunities to play in the SCF frequently. Luck is also required. Canucks blew it last year when they had 2 opportunities to close out Boston – it’s debatable they will reach that peak again.
Canucks are done in 5 games to the 8th seeded LA Kings – and that….EATS DSF up. LOL u mad bro?
Edler*
How DARE YOU VOR!! USING reasoning and sound arguments to take DSF on the arguments he has put forth with a false narrative? Do you not know what winning looks like, BECAUSE DSF DOES!!! MEANING ALL DSF POSTS ARE ABOUT WINNING!!! HE KNOWS WINNING GOD DAMN IT!!!
mattwatt,
Fill yer boots.
“Steve Smith”,
Oh I have had my fill for some time after today, thank you.
Aside, Canucks window of opportunity has not closed yet. They still have a few kicks at the can with the roster they have, and can still improve their situation if they do find a suitor for Luongo this offseason. I agree, they are on the downside of their peak but also believe they are not quite off of it yet either. Be interesting to see what their roster looks like starting next year, what tweaks Gillis makes.
Favorites to win the division again next year.
Thats exactly what I was implying VOR. Backend out usually means goaltender out and none of those teams did that. To be honest they didn’t all start building from D out either and if they did thats no guarantee of success.
Duncan Keith and Brent Seabrook could have played their little hearts out but until the Hawks drafted Kane and Toews and traded for Sharp and Hossa they weren’t going anywhere. When the Hawks did win in 2010 they accomplished it with ho hum goaltending and questionable depth outside of Keith and Seabrooke on D.
Lidstrom has been the Wings cornerstone but it was Datsyuk and Zetterberg drafted back to back and their ability to sign decent FA’s thats kept them near the top. Again pretty so so goaltending.
Philly keeps adding forwards and keep winning. Goaltending has been a sore spot for years. No Pronger this year. No problem. Just took out the team most thought would win it all and did it handily with a D corps I wouldn’t be bragging about.
Pittsburgh drafted Fleury first but he wasn’t in the NHL until Malkin, Crosby, and Staal were on board. Does anyone really think it’s defence or goaltending that keeps Pittsburgh near the top?
St Louis drafted Backes, Perron and Oshie THEN Pietrangelo, then made some very astute trades to land McDonald, Steen, Halak, Shattenkirk, and Stewart, and FA signings in Langenbrunner, Arnott. and Elliot. By and large that teams been slowly built over a few years but D and goaltending were not the first priorities. Coach might have been the biggest signing of all.
Washington got good after…well we all know which players, and only one of the 4 was a D. Goaltendings been a crapshoot for years.
Backend out is a nice concept but hardly a necessity. Good drafting and good trades can get you there just as well and when the Oilers get airborne it’ll be because they have enough decent assets to make trades.
As for the D comps to Gilbert the only one I would look at strongly would be Grossman. Philly won that series largely with forward depth
How does having Potter, Eager, Sutton, Belanger and Jones on the cheap constitute a mess. You could wave goodbye to all of them and not bat an eye and none of them are going to be relied upon to make the Oilers winners anyways.
Cmon dude. You’re reaching. You know whats going to make the Oilers tick for the next few years (Hall, Eberle, RNH and Yakky Doodle), and what made the Canucks tick for the past few (Mary Kate and Ashley). Which team do you honestly think has the better long term future? Your boys start next season at 32 years of age.
Considering how badly the offense dried up, it’s a bold claim to say Hodgson wouldn’t have been a factor. Sure couldn’t have made things worse.
You know, I think Luongo’s problem is that he feels extra pressure having Schneider backing him up – always threatening to take his position away from him in the playoffs.
So, perhaps a couple of Canadian teams could work something out. We have this very well mannered, elderly goalie on contract for a year. While we would hate to part with him (he is good in the room), I could see a straight up trade for Schneider. That would be good for both teams.
Not true. They could have lost the series to an eighth seed that scraped into the playoffs by a score 4-0 instead of 4-1.
Well the obvious thing nobody has pointed out here is the clear reason the Canucks lost the series: DSF is a major asshole, he cheers for the Canucks, and karma is a bitch.
Also, the Sedins will be 32 this fall…the Canucks have a 2-3 year window here and are looking more like the Flames three years ago than any dynasty on the rise.
DSF on behalf of all of us here, it couldn’t have happened to a less classy fanbase symbolized here by you. You are a total prick and now you can watch your team on the downslope as ours is clearly on the rise.
Caught the latest Oil Change episode tonight. Great spot on Fedun and his path to recovery. I’ll be cheering extra hard for him now.
Petrells old man sweater was another highlight.
He has zero goals AND a SH% of 0?
Are you sure about that?
I love how I ask about the Dys and you talk about the Kings.
There are no goalposts that are not moveable on the DSF island.
DSF,
Oilers disappointed not to get their greasy mitts on Nail Yakupov!? DSF, do you actually think anything like this? Because if you do, you’re…LOL…great trolling!
IMO: Having the four best young players in the world all playing on the top SIX guarantees a minimum of 5 awesome years ahead for the Oilers. None of these geniuses need “developing”, because they’re elite and therefore far off the capacity of any mere NHL head coach not named Toe Blake, who I suspect would just open the gate.
The management has to cobble together some kind of decent defence for training camp, unless they want a revolt led by Taylor Hall – who must be seething watching Tyler Seguin starring in the playoffs two seasons running.
Infidels!