THE IMPORTANCE OF GOOD OWNERSHIP

The Edmonton Oilers have had an uneven ownership history. Oilers owners often leave the town poorer, paranoid and perplexed. From Bill Hunter through Daryl Katz, the personalities change and the relationship between owner and fanbase has changed too. We’ve never been through an era like the Katz regime, though.

“Success comes from ownership, goaltending, and I’ve always been thinking that you can have a fire-wagon type of hockey but your ability to play good defence has got to surface.  The thread that ran through all of my success was undoubtedly ownership’s commitment to win.  I’ve been quite close to some of the owners, and the Bronfmans’ passion for the game as owners in Montreal and the Ilitches’ commitment to create a winning team in Detroit contributed greatly to our success.”

-Scotty Bowman

July 2, 2008 was a long time ago in counting time. Since that day the Edmonton Oilers have been poor:

  • 38-44 under Craig MacTavish in 08-09
  • 27-55 under Pat Quinn in 09-10
  • 25-57 under Tom Renney in 10-11
  • 32-50 under Tom Renney in 11-12

If we put this in baseball terms, Edmonton’s record is 60-102 .370. In real hockey math, the club is 122-206 during this time (.372). I know it looks less ghastly with the OTL but as a matter of fact the Oilers have been losing 50 games a season since MacT left the building. Incredible.

What’s more, the venom from fans has been placed almost exclusively at the feet of GM Steve Tambellini, coach Tom Renney and veterans like Shawn Horcoff. Incredible.

We’ve seen Mr. Katz a few times–most often in regard to the new arena–and for the most part we get information via the management group and various media in town. However, this year–after another 50 loss season–fans don’t know if the GM or the coach will return, don’t know that the organization is in any way discontent with the season past, don’t know if there’s any real appetite to improve the team this coming season.

I sincerely believe the Edmonton Oiler fans deserve some words from ownership about what the future holds. We have questions, like:

  • Taylor Hall’s media conference after the season was telling. Losing does not sit well with him and it sounds like there’s a sense of urgency with #4. Does the organization have a matching sense of the moment?
  • Is that the message you are sending to management?
  • Are you confident it is getting through?
  • What are the checks and balances?
  • What things can we look for over the summer to verify this sense of urgency?
  • Will this be a cap team?
  • When do you plan to sign the GM to a new contract?

I am once again reminded of Bowman’s money quote:

“Success comes from ownership, goaltending, and I’ve always been thinking that you can have a fire-wagon type of hockey but your ability to play good defence has got to surface.  The thread that ran through all of my success was undoubtedly ownership’s commitment to win.

Nation Radio is back on the air at noon today, Team 1260. We welcome your questions and comments on this blog, via email nationradio@theteam1260.com and you can send me a tweet @lowetide_ if you like. Scheduled to appear:

  • Julie Veilleux will help us understand the season past in Montreal and what the Habs are doing about it. Montreal’s ownership over the years (including the Bronfmans, Charles Bronfman”s photo is above) has been mostly stable. The current group (Molson again) appears to be reaching into their own past with Serge Savard’s recent emergence and we’ll explore some of the similarities between Edmonton and Montreal in this area.
  • Gabriel Desjardins from behind the net. Gabe will be by to talk about the Jets season, the electric start to the playoffs and answer your questions about advanced stats, etc.
  • Corey Graham, voice of the Edmonton Oil Kings. We’ll talk about the incredible run for this gifted young team and discuss another long layoff. We’ll also discuss some of the prospects eligible for this year’s draft.
  • Tom Lynn is a player advisor, agent and attorney, certified by the National Hockey League Players Association. He has acted as General Manager and Assistant General Manager of the Minnesota Wild and we’ll talk about the playoffs, the draft and other subjects. I’ll also ask your questions so make sure to pass them along.

Hope you tune in, should be a fun day.

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145 Responses to "THE IMPORTANCE OF GOOD OWNERSHIP"

  1. FPB94 says:

    Yes. We saw what Gillett’s ownership did for the Expos. A slow and shitty decay.

    On the other side of thing, did you watch the PHI/PIT game? Insane!

    Hat trick for my golden boy =).

  2. Lowetide says:

    The Flyer/Pen series is the best hockey I’ve seen in years. Seriously.

  3. hunter1909 says:

    Sure as xxxx the Oilers have blown! But name me another NHL team that can boast: Eberle/Hall/RNH/Yakupov(soon lol)????

    When these kids fill out in 2-3 years, it won’t be an issue of being bad – it’s going to be back to smirking watching the opposition trying to figure these guys out.

    Katz, whether through luck or design has found himself in the hockey position of sitting on the next NHL dynasty team. he’s on record as being a mega Oilers fan, and sells so many meds through the Canadian cradle-to-grave society that he has no money worries.

    Like it or not, someone has to own the Oilers. It might as well be this dude.

  4. FastOil says:

    I would be willing to make an overpay for Couturier. He is going to have Cup rings. Might have to wait for a sophmore slump though.

  5. hunter1909 says:

    Lowetide:
    The Flyer/Pen series is the best hockey I’ve seen in years. Seriously.

    For me it’s got to be the Kings crowning the Canucks. I’m also a bandwagon Flyers fan right now btw :)

  6. Lowetide says:

    I’m fine that he owns the team. I just think fans deserve the right to hear from him, at least once a season.

  7. fuzzy muppet says:

    hunter1909: For me it’s got to be the Kings crowning the Canucks. I’m also a bandwagon Flyers fan right now btw

    Boy oh Boy, DSF must be conflicted….Does he root for the DYS or his man-crush Lombardi???

  8. Ducey says:

    Scotty Bowman’s era was likely different in that there was no salary cap. Committment to winning then was code for “willing to spend”. The worst case scenario for an owner is someone like Al Davis who thinks he knows how to run a sports team because he has money. I’d rather have a hands off owner like Katz than the meddling group they have in Calgary.

    LT, maybe you could ask Tom Lynn about the timelines for Justin Schultz. When does he go back into the Free Agent pool? When does ANA lose the right to sign him? Why wouldn’t he be signing with ANA in the first place? Would it make sense for the Oilers to trade for his rights?

  9. russ99 says:

    Well done, LT.

    While things are surely looking up for the Oilers, especially so at the luck at the lottery if the pick is used or traded, it’s important to take a look at what we’ve been through and how the message from ownership is as wishy-washy now as it was then – as long as the new arena is built.

    Maybe Mr. Katz should pay less attention to his new downtown development and more to how his club is being managed. Sometimes public perception of mismanagement aren’t reality, but those perceptions are hard to dismiss when the owner who can dismiss them isn’t around to do so.

  10. FPB94 says:

    Penguins should stop scoring 3 goals in the first period.

    That silly strategy has lead them to nothing good.

  11. "Steve Smith" says:

    fuzzy muppet: Boy oh Boy, DSF must be conflicted….Does he root for the DYS or his man-crush Lombardi???

    He roots for the team that wins, like he told you all along that they would.

    LT, ask Lynn why Schultz doesn’t go back into the draft, and ask him to cite sections of the CBA to back up what he’s saying.

  12. Lowetide says:

    SS: I’m on it, speeds is on the job! :-)

  13. Traktor says:

    A good owner does what is best for the team even when shortsighted fans don’t understand what that is.

    If you need Katz to come out and tell you what is good then you are probably the type of fan that Katz should ignore.

    The positives in the organization are obvious.

  14. mattwatt says:

    Ducey: Scotty Bowman’s era was likely different in that there was no salary cap. Committment to winning then was code for “willing to spend”. The worst case scenario for an owner is someone like Al Davis who thinks he knows how to run a sports team because he has money. I’d rather have a hands off owner like Katz than the meddling group they have in Calgary.LT, maybe you could ask Tom Lynn about the timelines for Justin Schultz. When does he go back into the Free Agent pool? When does ANA lose the right to sign him? Why wouldn’t he be signing with ANA in the first place? Would it make sense for the Oilers to trade for his rights?

    There is a happy medium to this. As Lowetide has repeated stately, a good owner cares about the product but lets those he has hired to run the team as they see fit. Think of Kraft’s in New England or Illitch in Detroit. These are owners that are very much connected to the team, even occassionally speak about the club, but trust those who they have hired to run the outfit. All we can infer by Katz latest dealings is that all he cares is making money, not the product on the ice. One hopes it will change, Katz is probably a prideful man and likely will not put up with this, but we don’t know if he will. For nothing yet has been shown to the contrary.

    Furthermore Detroit has done quite well outside of the cap era. How is there no link between their recent success and ownerships commitment. Know this is not what you actually stated, but you did say running a hockey team in Bowman’s days was different. If it was different, then why do the Red Wings keep excelling?

    hunter1909: Sure as xxxx the Oilers have blown! But name me another NHL team that can boast: Eberle/Hall/RNH/Yakupov(soon lol)????When these kids fill out in 2-3 years, it won’t be an issue of being bad – it’s going to be back to smirking watching the opposition trying to figure these guys out.Katz, whether through luck or design has found himself in the hockey position of sitting on the next NHL dynasty team. he’s on record as being a mega Oilers fan, and sells so many meds through the Canadian cradle-to-grave society that he has no money worries. Like it or not, someone has to own the Oilers. It might as well be this dude.

    When I see comments like this, I cannot help but think of the saying ‘The future is always promised, but not always delivered.’ The Oilers do have an incredibly talented young nucleus, you don’t have to be a knowledgeable hockey fan to see that. But when watching the teams in the playoffs the last few nights, it is apparent that the Oilers have a long way to go. Whether watching Canucks/Kings or Pit/Philly, the level of depth these teams have far exceeds Edmonton. When Philly can run out the likes of Couturier, Giroux, Hartnell, Jagr, Voracek, Schenn, Simmonds, Briere and Talbot, it presents the Oilers as a far lesser team. Players I listed above are a great mix of youth, talent, grit, leadership and ability. The Oilers are not near that above forward depth, and it is unclear if they will ever be there. As nice as running out Eberle, RNH, Hall and Yakupov sounds, their are still 8 other forward spots to fill, and it is not known that these players will be here all that time (example, I am hearing things about Hall’s injury troubles from someone close to the team, and lets say it is not good).

    This is where the value of management and ownership become extremely apparent. Of the young 4 (I am including Yakupov in this cluster for the sake of discussion), outside of Eberle, anyone could have amassed this top end talent because all the Oilers did to get it was lose. It is how management fills out the other roster positions around this talent where the real difficulty lies.

    So far, I do not like the response management has given us. To my eye truculence and grit outweighs skill and ability, and notions of attitude and character are seemingly greater than performance. Not to say that none of what I mentioned above are without value, all items I listed do, but this club likes to put too much weight on some and not the others.

    And the longer this group manages, the less faith I have it will change.

    This problem lies on Katz, and no one else.

  15. Traktor says:

    If you want a good example of a hockey team that is committed to win, that will not accept rebuilding, and that has vocal ownership, then look no further than the Toronto Maple Leafs.

  16. Ribs says:

    I’m sure we’ll hear a lot more from Katz in the future…..When his arena is built and he can show off his shiny new thing. He appears to be a patient man.

  17. mattwatt says:

    Traktor: A good owner does what is best for the team even when shortsighted fans don’t understand what that is.If you need Katz to come out and tell you what is good then you are probably the type of fan that Katz should ignore.The positives in the organization are obvious.

    Jim Mora has once stated that if you listen to the fans, you will likely end up beside them. I agree with him on this for the most part.

    However, when your owner does not care at all to what the fans think, a la the final Davis years in Oakland or Ballard’s time in Toronto, this is problem far worse than anything else.

    Katz has yet to really show that he cares. I am fine with giving him the benefit of the doubt for now, but the longer he waits the more wick he burns.

    And he is now entering the years where he only has so much candle left.

  18. DSF says:

    mattwatt,

    Best post I’ve read anywhere for a long, long time.

  19. DSF says:

    “Steve Smith”: He roots for the team that wins, like he told you all along that they would.

    I’ve explained several times that, in the absence of NHL hockey in Edmonton, I find myself, rather than “rooting” for any team, being much more interested in how winning teams are built.

    What is ailing the Canucks is pretty simple: their PP has vanished and that’s a killer for them since their PP success last season, up until the Boston series, carried them.

    Likely a cautionary tale for the young Oilers and their third ranked PP. When opposing teams figure it out and the unit loses confidence, it’s very, very hard to get it back.

  20. bookje says:

    If Katz was not interested in winning, he would have invested elsewhere. NHL ownership would not be a natural investment for a shy individual. He also would not have invested in an expanded staff, etc.

    Katz has people who speak for him – Lowe and Tambellini – if some fans like what they are saying then that’s fine. I don’t know why people feel the need to hear it from him. Note that your quote regarding the Red Wings was not from the owner, but rather from the GM. I think Katz is also aware of the fact that he is not at all good at public speaking and as a result wisely lets others do it for him.

    I suspect that Katz is deliberating the job Tambellini has done and is not certain if he is the man for the job. I have a feeling that Lowe is wanting to see a change in GM (just my own speculation) . More importantly, I think Tambellini promised a better finish this year and didn’t achieve it. However, the team scored more, had a red hot pp and a good PK. The mixed results don’t make it a clear cut decision. I would think that we will get a statement from Katz or maybe just Lowe once the GM decision has been made.

  21. russ99 says:

    The lack of a contract for next season for both Tambellini and Renney is very interesting, but this may just be Katz hedging on a NHL vs. NHLPA work stoppage that many think is coming.

  22. bookje says:

    DSF: I’ve explained several times that, in the absence of NHL hockey in Edmonton, I find myself, rather than “rooting” for any team, being much more interested in how winning teams are built.

    What is ailing the Canucks is pretty simple: their PP has vanished and that’s a killer for them since their PP success last season, up until the Boston series, carried them.

    Likely a cautionary tale for the young Oilers and their third ranked PP.When opposing teams figure it out and the unit loses confidence, it’s very, very hard to get it back.

    I thought you were a Canucks fan and actually just came here to troll. Are you saying that the Oilers are the team you are most interested in (fan of perhaps)?

  23. slopitch says:

    LT pumped to sit and listen to your show right now. First Saturday in a while I’ve been able to listen live.

    I think Katz is doing all the right stuff but your right the fans deserve to here from him once a year. He’s doing the right things – investing in the farm, scouting ect. I just think he likes to be a puppet master who is not heard from. Which is his right. But the fans deserve to here too.

  24. DSF says:

    bookje: I thought you were a Canucks fan and actually just came here to troll.Are you saying that the Oilers are the team you are most interested in (fan of perhaps)?

    I have been an Oiler fan since the WHA days and was a season ticket holder for many, many years.

    At some point (most likely the first Ryan Smyth contract drama) I lost all patience with Kevin Lowe’s “abilities” and have watched in some bemusement and disgust as he is allowed to continue to stagger from pillar to post while smart guys like Holland, Gillis, Chiarelli, Tallon and Holmgren take his lunch money season after season.

    The beat goes on.

  25. slopitch says:

    Has there been much discussion about moving Hall to C? Jamie Benn did it last year and was highly effective. The other advantage is it moves Hall away from the boards where he is fearless to a fault. Obviously this means moving Horcoff or Gagner but I think strength down the middle is important to building a winner. Washington has one top line and an average D. We are the Caps if we put Yakovpov (a better version of Semin) on 2RW. The recent winners, Boston, Chi, Pitts are deeeep down the middle and elite.

    Fascinating times right now. So much potential. So many options. Time to convert that to wins.

  26. Ribs says:

    That was a heck of an interview, LT. I hope you can tap that resource again in the future. Excellent stuff.

  27. speeds says:

    Thanks for asking about Schultz, Tom gave a general answer but I still don’t see why he wouldn’t have to re-enter the draft. There was language based on age in the old CBA, but I don’t see where it carried over to the new CBA.

    Section 8.4 of the current CBA concerns draft eligibility, and reads as follows:

    8.4 Eligibility for Claim.

    (a) All Players age 18 or older are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft, except:

    (i) a Player on the Reserve List of a Club, other than as a try-out;
    (ii) a Player who has been claimed in two prior Entry Drafts;
    (iii) a Player who previously played in the League and became a Free Agent pursuant to this Agreement;
    (iv) a Player age 21 or older who: (A) has not been selected in a previous Entry Draft and (B) played hockey for at least one season in North America when he was age 18, 19, or 20 and shall be
    eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant to Article 10.1(d); and
    (v) a Player age 22 or older who has not been selected in a previous Entry Draft and shall be eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant to Article 10.1(d).

    And I’m not entirely sure which clause prevents him from being drafting.

    As widely as it has been reported, and based on Wheeler (although he may be different since he was drafted under the old CBA), I’m sure he going be a UFA, but I can’t find exactly why.

    Any chance you can e-mail him for info on exactly which CBA clause lets him go UFA vs. re-entering the draft?

  28. speeds says:

    If it’s at all debatable whether he’s draft eligible, I wouldn’t be surprised if some team tries to claim him in the draft, and then just go through whatever arbitration or appeal process might exist.

    EDM tried to draft an ineligible player awhile ago, FLA tried to draft Ovechkin a year early, if someone thinks they have a chance at getting Schultz, and he can’t/doesn’t sign by the draft, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone would gamble a late round pick picking him, and seeing what happens.

  29. cabbiesmacker says:

    I’d like our owner a lot better if he wasn’t a passenger in the Dakine backpack hanging off this guys shoulders.

    http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w405/leeburt1/yb2Vz.jpg

  30. "Steve Smith" says:

    speeds:
    Thanks for asking about Schultz, Tom gave a general answer…

    And after demanding the question, I missed it. What was his answer?

  31. speeds says:

    “Steve Smith”: And after demanding the question, I missed it.What was his answer?

    His answer, as I recall, was that Schultz is too old to go back in the draft. I can’t find anything supporting that in Article 8.4, perhaps it’s somewhere else.

    In the previous CBA, I think there was language that prevented older NA players from being drafted, but I don’t see it in the new CBA. Perhaps I’m just missing it?

  32. "Steve Smith" says:

    speeds,

    That’s the same answer we’re getting everywhere except from the CBA itself. This is getting really, really weird.

  33. FastOil says:

    DSF: I’ve explained several times that, in the absence of NHL hockey in Edmonton, I find myself, rather than “rooting” for any team, being much more interested in how winning teams are built.

    What is ailing the Canucks is pretty simple: their PP has vanished and that’s a killer for them since their PP success last season, up until the Boston series, carried them.

    Likely a cautionary tale for the young Oilers and their third ranked PP.When opposing teams figure it out and the unit loses confidence, it’s very, very hard to get it back.

    5v5 play is usually going to win the day. The Oil definitely need some help there. A better than average PP or PK is a bonus, and usually can’t be relied upon to stick around, as the Canucks surely know!

  34. DSF says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    speeds,

    That’s the same answer we’re getting everywhere except from the CBA itself.This is getting really, really weird.

    “If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at the time of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide college student prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft, and does not remain a bona fide college student through the graduation of his college class, his drafting Club shall retain exclusive rights for the negotiation of his services until the fourth June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such Player to retain such rights.”

    Anaheim had four years to sign Shultz after he was drafted and has not done so.

    Clause 8.5 C ii

    http://www.nhl.com/cba/2005-CBA.pdf

  35. DSF says:

    FastOil: 5v5 play is usually going to win the day. The Oil definitely need some help there. A better than average PP or PK is a bonus, and usually can’t be relied upon to stick around, as the Canucks surely know!

    Exactly my point.

  36. D says:

    LT,

    As an owner of a couple of small businesses, I can say that the business side of hockey appeals to me as much as (or even more so than) the actual on-ice product. I once made the mistake of buying a small company that looked really well put together from the outside. But as soon as I got under the proverbial hood, it was clear that it was rotting to the core.

    For an outfit the size and scope of the Edmonton Oilers, it probably took Katz some time to recognize that the infrastructure and organization was in bad shape. I believe that many business people, when they find themselves sitting on a crumbling asset like that, put together a plan to rehabilitate the asset, enter into a bunker of silence, and execute the plan.

    One of Katz’s biggest assets is his reputation. Katz can go into an investment bank, ask for 100 million dollars, and walk out with a cheque – and the bankers won’t even blink an eye. Anything that would risk Katz’s ability to do that (including making public statements about the Oilers while the organization is still not on a solid foundation) is likely not going to happen.

    I don’t think Katz will put his reputation on the line (by saying much of anything to the public) until he feels that the Oilers are back on a solid foundation. Katz’s vision from a business standpoint seems very clear. Turn the Edmonton Oilers into a top 5 elite team on the ice playing in a state of the art building, with a solid organization at all levels. Until the Oilers get to that point, I don’t believe there’s much business benefit to Katz in saying much.

  37. bendelson says:

    Communication is this organizations biggest problem.

    The owner says nothing. The Lowebellini tandem seems reluctant to go beyond stating the obvious (and only do so when pressed). And it’s now very clear that Souray spoke the truth and the players themselves are often left in the dark as well.

    Is it a product of organizational hubris?
    Is it nothing more than absolute incompetence?

    The longer the Lowebellini tandem is running the show, the more entrenched the lack of communication becomes and the harder it becomes to change.

    This is not good. The best case scenario seems to be that Katz is searching for the next GM quietly, with Lowe and Tambo on the verge of being replaced.

    Doubtful given the track record of this group but one can hope.

  38. speeds says:

    DSF: “If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at the time of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide college student prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft, and does not remain a bona fide college student through the graduation of his college class, his drafting Club shall retain exclusive rights for the negotiation of his services until the fourth June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such Player to retain such rights.”

    Anaheim had four years to sign Shultz after he was drafted and has not done so.

    Clause 8.5 C ii

    http://www.nhl.com/cba/2005-CBA.pdf

    No one is disputing that ANA loses his rights on June 1 if he leaves school (although I’m not sure if that’s correct clause, since Schultz didn’t go to school the year directly after being drafted). What we’re unsure about is whether he goes UFA or back into the draft.

  39. Ribs says:

    This might be a dumb question, but…. Why hasn’t Schultz wanted to sign with Anaheim?

  40. "Steve Smith" says:

    Ribs,

    I can’t find that in the CBA either.

  41. gd says:

    D,

    I hope you’re right. He is such a mystery, but I can’t imagine he bought the team just because he likes hanging out with Lowe. I think we will at least know if the rebuild is going in the right direction in 12 months time.

  42. FPB94 says:

    Ribs: Same case as Wheeler?

    If he IS able to pick another team, and had no intention to skip school, i don’t know why he wouldn’t let that option open for himself.

  43. Lowetide says:

    D: Excellent insight. Thanks for that, appreciated.

  44. jake70 says:

    A tidbit from the LA Times on Schultz’s situation. I wonder if all the team officials used private planes (a la pursuit of Heatley) when they went to Wisconsin to convince the guy to sign or whatever they went there for.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/05/news/la-ducks-prospect-justin-schultz-continues-to-weigh-options-20120405

  45. DSF says:

    speeds: No one is disputing that ANA loses his rights on June 1 if he leaves school (although I’m not sure if that’s correct clause, since Schultz didn’t go to school the year directly after being drafted).What we’re unsure about is whether he goes UFA or back into the draft.

    UFA.

    No one holds his rights.

  46. Ribs says:

    FPB94:
    Ribs: Same case as Wheeler?

    If he IS able to pick another team, and had no intention to skip school, i don’t knowwhy he wouldn’t let that option open for himself.

    Ah, I see. Makes sense.

  47. "Steve Smith" says:

    DSF,

    Remember the part where I asked you to cite a section of the CBA in support of your assertions? Yeah, that still applies.

    Besides that, saying that nobody holds his rights doesn’t make him a UFA. Nobody hold’s Yakupov’s rights either.

  48. "Steve Smith" says:

    FPB94,

    That makes sense, but it seems weird that he’d rather spend a bunch of years in school without graduating then spend those same years playing professional hockey (likely at least part of the time in the NHL). If school’s the priority, you’d expect him to see it through. If it isn’t, why not sign with the Ducks?

  49. "Steve Smith" says:

    “Steve Smith”,

    And now you’ve got me so worked up that I conjugated using an apostrophe, and didn’t notice it until the editing window had closed.

  50. DSF says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    DSF,

    Remember the part where I asked you to cite a section of the CBA in support of your assertions?Yeah, that still applies.

    Besides that, saying that nobody holds his rights doesn’t make him a UFA.Nobody hold’s Yakupov’s rights either.

    Why didn’t the dog bark?

    The CBA cleary states who is eligible for the draft.

    If he isn’t covered under those clauses he’s a free agent.

  51. spoiler says:

    DSF: Why didn’t the dog bark?

    The CBA cleary states who is eligible for the draft.

    If he isn’t covered under those clauses he’s a free agent.

    The CBA clearly states he IS eligible for the draft. If he goes undrafted, he will be UFA on July 1.

  52. DSF says:

    spoiler: The CBA clearly states he IS eligible for the draft. If he goes undrafted, he will be UFA on July 1.

    And he’s already been drafted.

    “His drafting Club shall retain exclusive rights for the negotiation of his services until the fourth June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft.”

    He was drafted in 2008 and has not been signed in that 4 year period.

    These are the clauses that govern older players. In each case, they must NOT have been drafted previously.

    (iv) “a Player age 21 or older who: (A) has not been selected in a previous Entry Draft and (B) played hockey for at least one season in North America when he was age 18, 19, or 20 and shall be eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant to Article 10.1(d); and

    (v) a Player age 22 or older who has not been selected in a previous Entry Draft and shall be eligible to enter the League as an Unrestricted Free Agent pursuant to Article 10.1(d).

    He is NOT eligible for the draft again because cases like his are NOT covered in the CBA.

    It’s a loophole that may get closed.

  53. spoiler says:

    DSF,

    you’ve just argued against your own argument.

    He IS eligible for the draft at his age and playing in N. America UNLESS he was previously undrafted, as the clause you quote states. And we all know he WAS NOT previously undrafted.

    Read the clauses over and over till it sinks in.

    And thank you for making our point.

  54. DBO says:

    the more nice things they say about Mike green, the more I see Tambo dealing the first for him.

    “Hey, CBC says he’s great. We need outlet passes, he does that well. And PJ Stock likes him, so he’s gold. better ask Kevin if it’s Ok to get em, just like Pronger. i am crazy like a fox!”

  55. Ducey says:

    That article linked above says that Schultz also benefits from a loophole a result of playing an extra year of major junior.

    Guess it doesn’t matter. Tamby is probably sitting back thinking: “If he calls us enough times, we might consider signing him”.

  56. FPB94 says:

    SS: I didn’t hear about that.

    Maybe he really loves random chicks and STD’s.

  57. FPB94 says:

    SS: On a more serious side, some colleges pay players to play for them. So he might find it he’l get paid the same salary and play less games / have more fun in college than in the AHL.

  58. Marc says:

    Another lawyer weighing in. I think speeds is right – Shultz will be eligible for the draft if he doesn’t sign with Anaheim.

    Anaheim lose their exclusive rights to Shultz if he doesn’t sign an ELC by June 1 of this year by virtue of section 8.6(c)(ii) or (iv) of the CBA (depending on when he enrolled at Wisconsin). He is NOT a UFA however, because he is eligible for the draft – he is over the age of 18 and none of the factors that would make him ineligible for the draft, as set out at section 8.4(a)(i)-(v), apply.

    He becomes a UFA by being eligible for the draft and not being selected, by virtue of sections 8.4(a)(v) and 10.1(d)(i). This is what happened to Blake Wheeler – he went unselected in the 2008 draft (for which he was eligible) and so became a free agent.

    Now Boston signed Wheeler on July 1 2008, but as far as I can tell they actually could have signed him on June 21 of that year (the second day of the draft), as soon as Detroit had made their 7th pick – the final pick of that draft. This is because section 8.9(b)(i) states that a player is eligible to play in the NHL if:
    – they had been eligible for claim in the last Entry Draft, but went unclaimed;
    – had played hockey in North America the prior season;
    – was age 20 or older at the time of the last Entry Draft; and
    – signed an SPC which was signed and registered with the League between the conclusion of the Entry Draft and commencement of the next NHL Season.
    Therefore a player in Wheeler’s position can sign an SPC from the conclusion of the draft that they are eligible for but aren’t selected in.

    So as far as I can tell, if Shultz doesn’t sign an ELC with Anaheim by June 1 of this year, he becomes eligible for the draft this year. If he goes unclaimed he can sign with anyone from the conclusion of the draft.

  59. spoiler says:

    Ducey: That article linked above says that Schultz also benefits from a loophole a result of playing an extra year of major junior. Guess it doesn’t matter. Tamby is probably sitting back thinking: “If he calls us enough times, we might consider signing him”.

    The article says “could”. Conditional statement, but doesn’t say what it is conditional upon.

  60. spoiler says:

    ALL Players age 18 or older ARE ELIGIBLE for claim in the Entry Draft, EXCEPT:

    a Player age 21 or older who: (A) HAS NOT BEEN SELECTED in a previous Entry Draft and (B) played hockey for at least one season in North America when he was age 18, 19, or 20.

    and

    a Player age 22 or older who HAS NOT BEEN SELECTED previous Entry Draft…

    So Schultz IS eligible because he was drafted in a previous Entry Draft and has played at least one season in N. America since. He must make it past the draft first and go unclaimed to qualify as an unrestricted free agent.

    Now if his agent lets it out that anyone who drafts him can expect him to not report and play in Europe for a year, then maybe he will go undrafted this draft (like Wheeler did in his 22 yo season), making him an UFA on July 1. If he is drafted again in 2012, then the drafting team gets his rights for one year only, so there’s some risk of the player sitting it out.

    I suspect Schultz’s agent has figured this out (or had the league figure it out) and that’s why we’re seeing some backpedaling from the Schultz camp on his plans.

  61. Dipstick says:

    Ducey:
    That article linked above says that Schultz also benefits from a loophole a result of playing an extra year of major junior.

    Guess it doesn’t matter.Tamby is probably sitting back thinking:“If he calls us enough times, we might consider signing him”.

    This has me a bit confused. I thought that major junior players were ineligible for NCAA hockey since they were no longer considered amateurs.

  62. D says:

    I agree with you. We are definitely closer to knowing an answer than not knowing.

    gd:

    I hope you’re right. He is such a mystery, but I can’t imagine he bought the team just because he likes hanging out with Lowe. I think we will at least know if the rebuild is going in the right direction in 12 months time.

  63. D says:

    Thank you LT.

    Lowetide:
    D: Excellent insight. Thanks for that, appreciated.

  64. spoiler says:

    Dipstick: This has me a bit confused. I thought that major junior players were ineligible for NCAA hockey since they were no longer considered amateurs.

    He played Tier II, BCHL, which does not compensate their players and actually has a scholarship pact with the NCAA.

  65. speeds says:

    Marc:
    Another lawyer weighing in.I think speeds is right – Shultz will be eligible for the draft if he doesn’t sign with Anaheim.

    Anaheim lose their exclusive rights to Shultz if he doesn’t sign an ELC by June 1 of this year by virtue of section 8.6(c)(ii) or (iv)of the CBA(depending on when he enrolled at Wisconsin). He is NOT a UFA however, because he is eligible for the draft – he is over the age of 18 and none of the factors that would make him ineligible for the draft, as set out at section 8.4(a)(i)-(v), apply.

    He becomes a UFA by being eligible for the draft and not being selected, by virtue of sections 8.4(a)(v) and 10.1(d)(i). This is what happened to Blake Wheeler – he went unselected in the 2008 draft (for which he was eligible) and so became a free agent.

    Now Boston signed Wheeler on July 1 2008, but as far as I can tell they actually could have signed him on June 21 of that year (the second day of the draft), as soon as Detroit had made their 7th pick – the final pick of that draft. This is because section 8.9(b)(i) states that a player is eligible to play in the NHL if:– they had been eligible for claim in the last Entry Draft, but went unclaimed;– had played hockey in North America the prior season;– was age 20 or older at the time of the last Entry Draft; and– signed an SPC which was signed and registered with the League between the conclusion of the Entry Draft and commencement of the next NHL Season.
    Therefore a player in Wheeler’s position can sign an SPC from the conclusion of the draft that they are eligible for but aren’t selected in.

    So as far as I can tell, if Shultz doesn’t sign an ELC with Anaheim by June 1 of this year, he becomes eligible for the draft this year. If he goes unclaimed he can sign with anyone from the conclusion of the draft.

    I’m not necessarily saying that Schultz will, for sure, go back into the draft. My guess is there is probably some mechanism, that I haven’t seen explained in the media, that will get Schultz to UFA status.

    The most plausible suggestion that I’ve seen is that, perhaps, Schultz has to wait to formally leave school until after the 2012 draft is over, which would bypass the draft, and at that point he’d be able to go UFA. I don’t know if that works, but then again I’m not sure what the explanation is, assuming we have all the information necessary – thata there isn’t some CBA amendment in place that we haven’t seen, or something like that.

    Given the reporting of the topic, and that Wheeler was able to go UFA, I don’t necessarily doubt that he will go UFA, I’m just not sure exactly what the mechanism that allows him to avoid draft re-entry, if indeed he does avoid draft re-entry

  66. "Steve Smith" says:

    speeds,

    That’s my position as well, but I don’t see how waiting past the draft will exempt him from the 2013 draft, and by my reading as long as he’s eligible for the 2013 draft, he’s not a UFA.

  67. Downright Fierce says:

    Seems silly to play Capgeek GM before the playoffs are a little older, not to mention the lack of a new CBA… But is it unreasonable to think The Org could sign Gaustad, Moen & Prust for $8-10 million? This would mean trading/burying Jones & Eager, but would leave more than enough space to sign Smyth, Dubnyk, Petry & overpay one of Garrison or Carle (or both, if the cap increases). Add Yakupov at LW, Justin Schultz if they can, Harding if willing to buyout Khab & another forward, Omark in my scenario. Keep Belanger & Sutton in the pressbox & I’ll be damned if that team isn’t at least on the playoff bubble.

    So many wrenches could jam up this plan, the most likely being Toonces’ terrible track record in free agency. Still, I was very negative about the UFA crop this year & building this roster has lessened that slightly… Unless you all think I’m crazy.

  68. stevezie says:

    Downright Fierce,

    Jones is debated so often that I think his flaws are better known than they maybe deserve to be. Jones can play on my 4th line anytime, I see no need to bury him.

  69. jake70 says:

    Always like the Canada /US women’s finals….going on now, Canada up 3-1, no love lost between the 2 teams.

  70. speeds says:

    Downright Fierce:

    So many wrenches could jam up this plan, the most likely being Toonces’ terrible track record in free agency. Still, I was very negative about the UFA crop this year & building this roster has lessened that slightly… Unless you all think I’m crazy.

    It’s just hard to know what they are looking to do this summer, how aggressively they might be looking to improve. I mean, they could have a pretty quiet summer (and one could even argue a good summer?) while addressing their needs.

    Draft Yakupov, re-sign Smyth, sign J. Schultz, sign another D (I’ll call him Garrison)

    Hall-RNH-Eberle
    Smyth-Gagner-Yakupov
    Paajarvi-Horcoff-Hemsky
    Hartikainen-Belanger-Jones
    Eager

    Smid-Petry
    Garrison-N. Schultz
    Whitney-J. Schultz
    Sutton-Potter

    Dubnyk
    Khabibulin

    That’s pretty quiet, not all that flashy, but does that kind of summer fit the plan going forward?

  71. DSF says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    speeds,

    That’s my position as well, but I don’t see how waiting past the draft will exempt him from the 2013 draft, and by my reading as long as he’s eligible for the 2013 draft, he’s not a UFA.

    Events have and will prove you wrong.

    Why didn’t the dog bark?

    Don’t they teach that in law school?

  72. "Steve Smith" says:

    DSF: Why didn’t the dog bark?

    Where the governing document stipulates that the dog shall bark, it’s a valid question.

    (And with dogs, the answer is that they don’t give a shit about governing documents. But the NHL and the NHLPA aren’t run by dogs.)

  73. Lowetide says:

    My dog is barking, I blame all of you.

    speeds: I like your lineup. Would you add Garrison AND another for Whitney insurance or go with Shultz or a similar young hire?

  74. Lowetide says:

    speeds: Also, I will email your request to Mr. Lynn’s representation.

  75. Downright Fierce says:

    speeds,

    Good point. I don’t see much improvement in the standings, but likely that teams sees its Goal Diff improve yet again. Maintain PP/PK numbers & let their season hinge around goaltending/kids’ development/veteran bouncebacks.

    I’ll say one thing for sure, add something like a Parros signing & that sounds precisely like a good* Toonces-helmed summer.

    *Everything is relative.

  76. godot10 says:

    Downright Fierce:
    Seems silly to play Capgeek GM before the playoffs are a little older, not to mention the lack of a new CBA… But is it unreasonable to think The Org could sign Gaustad, Moen & Prust for $8-10 million? This would mean trading/burying Jones & Eager, but would leave more than enough space to sign Smyth, Dubnyk, Petry & overpay one of Garrison or Carle (or both, if the cap increases). Add Yakupov at LW, Justin Schultz if they can, Harding if willing to buyout Khab & another forward, Omark in my scenario. Keep Belanger & Sutton in the pressbox & I’ll be damned if that team isn’t at least on the playoff bubble.

    So many wrenches could jam up this plan, the most likely being Toonces’ terrible track record in free agency. Still, I was very negative about the UFA crop this year & building this roster has lessened that slightly… Unless you all think I’m crazy.

    Somebody here has a problem counting to 50, 50 contracts.

    If Yakupov is drafted and Smyth and Petrell signed, that is about all the addition that can be made at forward without subtraction. Burying does not equal subtraction.

    Hall, Eberle, Hemsky, Yakupov. Smyth, Jones, Eager, Petrell, Hartikainen, Paajarvi

    And if Omark is qualified, that mades 11.

    Those are your 2012-13 wingers, barring a trade or Smyth or Petrell choosing to go elsewhere.

    There is less cap room than you think because any contracts you add have to be short term because of who is going to have to be signed over the next three years.

    Plus, if one wants one of those elite defensemen to choose Edmonton in UFA in a couple of years, one has to have cap flexibility.

    If Khabibulin is bought out or he retires, his cap hit is still on the books next year. Danis would likely just be signed to a one year NHL deal at a bargain rate to serve as a backup, rather than to expend big dollars on a UFA goaltender. He had a really good year in OKC behind a patchwork defence.

  77. spoiler says:

    speeds: I’m not necessarily saying that Schultz will, for sure, go back into the draft.My guess is there is probably some mechanism, that I haven’t seen explained in the media, that will get Schultz to UFA status.

    The most plausible suggestion that I’ve seen is that, perhaps, Schultz has to wait to formally leave school until after the 2012 draft is over, which would bypass the draft, and at that point he’d be able to go UFA.I don’t know if that works, but then again I’m not sure what the explanation is, assuming we have all the information necessary – thata there isn’t some CBA amendment in place that we haven’t seen, or something like that.

    Given the reporting of the topic, and that Wheeler was able to go UFA, I don’t necessarily doubt that he will go UFA, I’m just not sure exactly what the mechanism that allows him to avoid draft re-entry, if indeed he does avoid draft re-entry.

    I suppose that’s possible, but I’m not sure why you would posit that, for the following reasons:

    1. One would think that such a key mechanism would be mentioned in the CBA, but it’s not

    2. One would think if such a mechanism exists, it would have came to light during the Wheeler affair, but no such mechanism did.

    The CBA is pretty clear. To be a UFA you have to be undrafted in a draft eligible year (and over 20), or have played some professional hockey (various scenarios). Schultz does not qualify (yet) on either basis.

  78. "Steve Smith" says:

    spoiler: 1. One would think that such a key mechanism would be mentioned in the CBA, but it’s not

    The CBA, or at least the version on the NHL site (which I’m still not fully convinced is correct) is a little sketchy in a few respects. For example, if you look at the schedule that provides a calendar of significant dates, some of those dates are things that appear in the CBA, and some appear to have been made up for the purposes of the calendar.

    My hunch is still that what we’re treating as the CBA (on the not unreasonable basis that it’s posted on the NHL’s website and identified there as the CBA) isn’t actually the CBA, and there are provisions elsewhere that provide for Wheeler and Schultz to become UFAs. That’s admitted conjecture, though.

  79. spoiler says:

    Healey speculating that Ryan Murray will be invited to the WHCs and that Sutter will be the next coach of the Oil on CBC’s Hotstove.

  80. godot10 says:

    Justin Schultz might not sign a contract with anyone until there is a new CBA. If there is a lockout, he can finish his degree and play for Wisconsin. If he signs a contract, he can’t play with Wisconsin.

  81. spoiler says:

    “Steve Smith”: The CBA, or at least the version on the NHL site (which I’m still not fully convinced is correct) is a little sketchy in a few respects.For example, if you look at the schedule that provides a calendar of significant dates, some of those dates are things that appear in the CBA, and some appear to have been made up for the purposes of the calendar.

    My hunch is still that what we’re treating as the CBA (on the not unreasonable basis that it’s posted on the NHL’s website and identified there as the CBA) isn’t actually the CBA, and there are provisions elsewhere that provide for Wheeler and Schultz to become UFAs.That’s admitted conjecture, though.

    I hear ya. I use the one on the NHLPA site, btw, not that it’s any different. Wheeler didn’t need an extra provision though. Once he was unsigned and undrafted after leaving the Gophers, he qualified as UFA.

  82. "Steve Smith" says:

    spoiler,

    So your position is that Blake Wheeler left school prior to the 2008 entry draft, was accordingly available to be drafted then, but was not drafted? That’s in accordance with my read of the CBA, but as a hockey matter I find it peculiar that he wouldn’t have been picked.

  83. Downright Fierce says:

    godot10,

    Let Petrell walk & hold out for picks for Jones & Eager, until they have to bite the bullet in October & buy them out. There is a real concern in getting the three I mentioned to ink short term & of course one team will never get everything they want in UFA. As far as cap room, I think it’s more likely to go up versus staying the same or shrinking. Not worried about the elite UFA D in the next two years because players can always be moved to make room. Don’t think Harding garners “big dollars,” but you’re right that Danis+half of Khabi’s $ is better than actually playing Khabi any day of the week.

  84. spoiler says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    spoiler,

    So your position is that Blake Wheeler left school prior to the 2008 entry draft, was accordingly available to be drafted then, but was not drafted?That’s in accordance with my read of the CBA, but as a hockey matter I find it peculiar that he wouldn’t have been picked.

    Yeah, that’s pretty much it. That draft claim would only last one year. It would be easy enough for his agent to advise all the teams that Wheeler would not sign if drafted and play in Europe for the year.

  85. spoiler says:

    Healey also stated the Oil offered Smyth Bertuzzi money for 2 years and he turned it down. “There’s a very good chance he’s not an Oiler next season”.

  86. godot10 says:

    Downright Fierce:
    godot10,

    Let Petrell walk & hold out for picks for Jones & Eager, until they have to bite the bullet in October & buy them out. There is a real concern in getting the three I mentioned to ink short term & of course one team will never get everything they want in UFA. As far as cap room, I think it’s more likely to go up versus staying the same or shrinking. Not worried about the elite UFA D in the next two years because players can always be moved to make room. Don’t think Harding garners “big dollars,” but you’re right that Danis+half of Khabi’s $ is better than actually playing Khabi any day of the week.

    I believe the buyout window is in June, well before UFA opens on July 1.

    Yakupov, Smyth, and Petrell will be all. The focus has to be on signing defenseman, not changing the deck chairs of wingers on the 4th line.

    Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, Hemsky, Smyth, Paajarvi….3 lines of wingers nailed down. They aren’t going to fret about 4th line wingers.

    Defensemen, defensemen, defensemen….

  87. Ryan says:

    I’m not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night…

    I don’t know anything about where Schultz is WRT his college education, but is it possible that he’s trying to create a loophole from this:

    (c) College Players.
    (i) If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at the time of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide college student prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft, and remains a bona fide college student through the graduation of his college class, his drafting Club shall retain the exclusive right of negotiation for his services through and including the August 15 following the graduation of his college class. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such Player to retain such rights.
    19
    (ii) If a Player drafted at age 18 or 19 is a bona fide college student at the time of his selection in the Entry Draft, or becomes a bona fide college student prior to the first June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft, and does not remain a bona fide college student through the graduation of his college class, his drafting Club shall retain exclusive rights for the negotiation of his services until the fourth June 1 following his selection in the Entry Draft. The Club need not make a Bona Fide Offer to such Player to retain such rights.

    I’m guessing that he falls under article (i) as a college student then defaults to (ii) when he drops out to become a UFA.

    Anyways, I have no clue, but was curious if that’s the putative plan of his agent? It sounds a little flimsy if it is the plan…

  88. "Steve Smith" says:

    Ryan,

    (c)(ii) applies, but it operates only to get him off the Ducks’ reserve list. There’s still the question of how he becomes a UFA, rather than going back into the draft.

  89. "Steve Smith" says:

    spoiler: That draft claim would only last one year.

    How do you figure? Wouldn’t 8.6(a)(ii) allow a bona fide offer to extend that to two years? 8.6(a)(iii) appears to apply only to players drafted for the first time at age 20, which wouldn’t be Schultz.

  90. bookje says:

    spoiler:
    Healey speculating that Ryan Murray will be invited to the WHCs and that Sutter will be the next coach of the Oil on CBC’s Hotstove.

    No thanks on Sutter

  91. Ryan says:

    Hey Steve,

    Maybe I’m missing something given my lack of legal acumen as well as sleep, but wouldn’t (c)(i) mean that the Ducks retain exclusive rights to Schultz until August 15, 2012 while he’s still a full matriculating student thus making him ineligible for the draft?

    After the draft, he can choose to drop out of school and the Ducks would loose his rights at the time because of (c)(ii)

    …hence the loophole?

  92. "Steve Smith" says:

    Ryan,

    If he did that, he’d be eligible for the 2013 draft. The section by which he’d be attempting to become a free agent is 10.1(d)(i), which applies only to players i. not eligible for any future entry draft, or ii. who were eligible, but weren’t drafted.

    Under your scenario, the first wouldn’t apply, because he’d still be eligible for the 2013 draft. The second wouldn’t apply, because he’d never passed through a draft for which he was eligible undrafted.

  93. "Steve Smith" says:

    By which I mean [snide one-liner].

    Forgot who I was there for a second.

  94. jake70 says:

    The Bertuzzi deal for 12-13 and 13-14 is 2M per as per capgeek. If that (or close to that) is in fact the offer from the Oilers to Smyth, should be interesting.

  95. Downright Fierce says:

    godot10,

    Ah, right. Good point about the buyout period, I was overlooking that

    If the cap’s ~70mil, my roster has room for Garrison & Carle at overpays plus Schultz’s dollars. Miss out on any of them & you’ve got more money to spread around lesser lights. Those deck chairs should bring better secondary scoring, better size (moreso the willingness to use it) & keep the puck moving in the right direction.

    Trying to address more than one area of need in an offseason is very un-Oilers-like, I realize, but a man can dream.

  96. Ryan says:

    "Steve Smith",

    Okay, I see what you mean. From my quick scan of the CBA, it sounds like once you’re drafted 8.4(a)(iv), then there’s no way to avoid reentering the NHL without going thru another draft.

    The scenario I detailed in my previous comment would allow him to possibly avoid the 2012 draft, but not the 2013 as you mention.

  97. spoiler says:

    “Steve Smith”: How do you figure?Wouldn’t 8.6(a)(ii) allow a bona fide offer to extend that to two years?8.6(a)(iii) appears to apply only to players drafted for the first time at age 20, which wouldn’t be Schultz.

    Sheesh, the stairs between my TV and my computer are getting a workout. But I believe you’re right Steve, that’s what I get for trying to go off memory. That doesn’t mean though that a team would be convinced to take the chance given the player’s stated intent to go UFA. Still, you’d think a Cup contender would risk a 7th on it.

    But further to the argument against there being another mechanism there’s 10.2 (c). Without the requisite years of experience, no player shall have any right to Free Agency except as specifically provided in the Section. I find it very difficult to believe that the CBA is deficient on a matter it specifically defines.

    So I’m wondering if they got the Commish to class Wheeler as a defected player?

  98. jake70 says:

    Ahh great OT win for Canada.

  99. Lowetide says:

    Congrats to the Canadian Women! You kick ass! (meant in the most respectful way).

  100. jake70 says:

    That Swiss goalie who made the allstar team may have a modelling career later on. Not hard to look at (meant in the most respectful way of course).

  101. spoiler says:

    spoiler: Sheesh, the stairs between my TV and my computer are getting a workout. But I believe you’re right Steve, that’s what I get for trying to go off memory. That doesn’t mean though that a team would be convinced to take the chance given the player’s stated intent to go UFA.Still, you’d think a Cup contender would risk a 7th on it.

    But further to the argument against there being another mechanism there’s 10.2 (c). Without the requisite years of experience, no player shall have any right to Free Agency except as specifically provided in the Section. I find it very difficult to believe that the CBA is deficient on a matter it specifically defines.

    So I’m wondering if they got the Commish to class Wheeler as a defected player?

    Although again, back to my earlier point, I’m sure we would’ve heard if this had happened.

  102. Ryan says:

    spoiler,

    Sheesh I have to work at midnight :(

    I wish I hadn’t read this thread…

    Thinking about things I know very little about is not conducive to falling asleep right now.

    I agree with all above that unless he’s undrafted, it doesn’t sound like he can become a free agent.

    It also begs the question of why he’s so hell bent on not signing with Anaheim.

    NO, don’t please, please don’t make me live in Sunny California and play with Getzlaf and Perry, wtf???

  103. Lowetide says:

    I’ve said this before and my guest today seemed confident in his answer. So, it’s a patch imo. A portion of the previous CBA was understood as grandfathered and somewhere in the fine print that part of it is written in stone.

    jmo. NHL makes stuff up as they go along and this is the most recent example.

  104. "Steve Smith" says:

    spoiler,

    If Wheeler was draft-eligible in 2008, I believe that the only reason he’d have passed through the draft is if teams didn’t realize that he was draft-eligible. And I’m plenty arrogant, but I have trouble believing that none of the NHL teams have legal departments as good as me. The Oilers, maybe, but all thirty?

    Basically, the possibilities are as follows:

    1. We’re misreading the CBA.
    2. What we’re reading isn’t really the CBA.
    3. The NHL and NHLPA do not actually adhere to the CBA in this respect.
    4. Blake Wheeler passed through the 2008 entry draft without being selected, because
    (a) teams didn’t realize he was eligible, and/or
    (b) teams decided not to take him, despite realizing that he was eligible.

    That’s it, right? I’m not missing any possibilities? At this point I’m confident that it isn’t 1, and 3 and 4 just don’t seem plausible to me, which is why I’m going with 2. But regardless of the answer, it’s weird.

    (DSF doesn’t even need to read the CBA to know that it’s 1. Would that I had that kind of legal superpowers.)

  105. russ99 says:

    As per capgeek, this summer (or early fall if a work stoppage happens), the Oilers have $21M in cap space, but they’ll need to give $5-7M in raises to RFA’s Gagner, Petry and Dubnyk. More if they bring back any of the other RFAs (Omark, VandeVelde, Peckham and Barker) or UFA’s (Smyth, Petrell and Hordichuk)

    Most importantly, Hall and Eberle get their first big payday in the next calendar year, and we could be adding another top-value ELC in Yakupov.

    What looks like a lot of cap room could evaporate quickly. I’d think some other players would have to be moved to not only create room in the roster but also give us a little operating room under the cap for the coming 2-3 seasons.

  106. DSF says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    spoiler,

    If Wheeler was draft-eligible in 2008, I believe that the only reason he’d have passed through the draft is if teams didn’t realize that he was draft-eligible.And I’m plenty arrogant, but I have trouble believing that none of the NHL teams have legal departments as good as me.The Oilers, maybe, but all thirty?

    Basically, the possibilities are as follows:

    1. We’re misreading the CBA.
    2. What we’re reading isn’t really the CBA.
    3. The NHL and NHLPA do not actually adhere to the CBA in this respect.
    4. Blake Wheeler passed through the 2008 entry draft without being selected, because
    (a) teams didn’t realize he was eligible, and/or
    (b) teams decided not to take him, despite realizing that he was eligible.

    That’s it, right?I’m not missing any possibilities?At this point I’m confident that it isn’t 1, and 3 and 4 just don’t seem plausible to me, which is why I’m going with 2.But regardless of the answer, it’s weird.

    (DSF doesn’t even need to read the CBA to know that it’s 1.Would that I had that kind of legal superpowers.)

    I’ve read the CBA from beginning to end.

    More often that I’ve read the Bible.

    Occam’s Razor.

    Good grief.

  107. spoiler says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    spoiler,

    If Wheeler was draft-eligible in 2008, I believe that the only reason he’d have passed through the draft is if teams didn’t realize that he was draft-eligible.And I’m plenty arrogant, but I have trouble believing that none of the NHL teams have legal departments as good as me.The Oilers, maybe, but all thirty?

    Basically, the possibilities are as follows:

    1. We’re misreading the CBA.
    2. What we’re reading isn’t really the CBA.
    3. The NHL and NHLPA do not actually adhere to the CBA in this respect.
    4. Blake Wheeler passed through the 2008 entry draft without being selected, because
    (a) teams didn’t realize he was eligible, and/or
    (b) teams decided not to take him, despite realizing that he was eligible.

    That’s it, right?I’m not missing any possibilities?At this point I’m confident that it isn’t 1, and 3 and 4 just don’t seem plausible to me, which is why I’m going with 2.But regardless of the answer, it’s weird.

    (DSF doesn’t even need to read the CBA to know that it’s 1.Would that I had that kind of legal superpowers.)

    I think that’s a fair summary of the possibilities. LT’s response is a subset of #2 and since there are provisions for amending the CBA, or ruling on its ambiguities, it is plausible that there are amendments and agreements that have come since the original document to which we are not privy.

    It’s also possible then that whatever worked for Wheeler might not work for Schultz since Wheeler was drafted pre-CBA.

  108. bookje says:

    TV man say Schultz Free Agent. TV never wrong. Stop Thinking! Stop Talking! Make my head hurt so much.

  109. spoiler says:

    It would be nice if the NHL would comment, perhaps in response to a journalist actually doing some research. Maybe we should send a Letter to Hodge or Dreger or someone, lol.

  110. spoiler says:

    Phoenix needed to make the Hawks pay and did.

  111. Lowetide says:

    spoiler:
    It would be nice if the NHL would comment, perhaps in response to a journalist actually doing some research. Maybe we should send a Letter to Hodge or Dreger or someone, lol.

    They never do. There are 6-year olds at play who create games with higher hurdles than the men of the NHL.

  112. Rebilled says:

    I wonder what Tamby is going to do with this pick. ST could do some crazy things this summer but he probably won’t. I guess next year. Interesting that we got the #1. Shows that MacKinnon is not a guarantee if that’s what they want. Can’t count on CBJ either, especially when Nash goes…

    He’ll just draft Nail.

    But what could we get for Nail?

  113. Lowetide says:

    Word tonight that Murray has been invited to the WHC by Lowae and Team Canada. The plot thickens.

  114. DSF says:

    spoiler: I think that’s a fair summary of the possibilities.LT’s response is a subset of #2 and since there are provisions for amending the CBA, or ruling on its ambiguities, it is plausible that there are amendments and agreements that have come since the original document to which we are not privy.

    It’s also possible then that whatever worked for Wheeler might not work for Schultz since Wheeler was drafted pre-CBA.

    I would challenge the “lawyers” here to find a clause in the CBA which applies to the Wheeler/Shultz situations.

    Thing is, they can’t, because it wasn’t anticipated in the CBA and, as such, is a a loophole.

    A tenet of English Common Law is that anything that is not expressively prohibited is allowed.

    Pierre Trudeau attempted to change all this with the Charter but, like much legislation, was very flawed.

    I’m sure the NHL will put this on the negotiation agenda but I wouldn’t think it’ll be on their top 10 to-do list.

    If a drafted college player is not signed four years after he is drafted, the player becomes a free agent because the CBA does prescribe what happens next.

    If you work from the assumption that every kid who play hockey is perpetually indentured to the NHL no matter the circumstances, you might have a case but, in this case, the NHL missed one and both Wheeler and Shultz are taking advantage of their “lawyers’” neglect.

    Good on them.

  115. DSF says:

    bookje:
    TV man say Schultz Free Agent.TV never wrong.Stop Thinking!Stop Talking!Make my head hurt so much.

    TV right.

    Steve Smith wrong.

    Shultz signs with whomever the fuck he pleases.

    Watch,

  116. prairieschooner says:

    I know nothing about the draft re draft stuuf but it was explained to me once by someone who knew how it worked and although I did not pay close attention (he seemed to know exactly why Schultz was available)
    I seem to recall that the key thing was to do with him having played in the BCHL was that where he was when he was drafted or just the fact that he played Junior

  117. spoiler says:

    Lowetide:
    Word tonight that Murray has been invited to the WHC by Lowae and Team Canada. The plot thickens.

    Yeah Healey had mentioned that in the first game. Very interesting. They want to be real sure the defenseman is not the BPA or equivalent to, is my guess. They can get him into some early games at the very least. It’s a creative move in a tournament that doesn’t mean as much to Canada; a fine chance to see him on the ice with some real players rather than the dregs that were the Tips this year.

  118. oilersfan says:

    With all the relevant discussion of a bunch of laypeople’s understanding of the cba, I thought I might mention that OKC has won their first two games of the playoffs.
    Paajarvi with a goal in each game (suck it DSF!), Pitlick with an assist in each game and Marincin with an assist tonight, and is plus 3 so far in two playoff games.

  119. "Steve Smith" says:

    DSF: I would challenge the “lawyers” here to find a clause in the CBA which applies to the Wheeler/Shultz situations.

    8.4(a)
    8.6(c)(ii)

  120. "Steve Smith" says:

    DSF: Shultz signs with whomever the fuck he pleases.

    I’m not saying that he won’t. In fact, earlier this thread I said that he might well. But if he does, it will be because of one of reasons 2, 3, or 4 (with mentions of Wheeler replaced by mentions of Schultz) that I listed earlier.

  121. DSF says:

    “Steve Smith”: 8.4(a)
    8.6(c)(ii)

    They don’t and you know it.

  122. SteadyEd says:

    IIHF Ice Hockey U18 World Championship Scoring Leaders.

    http://stats.iihf.com/Hydra/292/IHM292000_85B_3_0.pdf

  123. "Steve Smith" says:

    DSF,

    I’d like to pin you down, because if we work from the assumption that the document on the NHL website purporting to be the CBA is actually the CBA, we have perfect information and should be able to do this completely logically and identify the precise point of our disagreement. So, one proposition at a time:

    When 8.4(a) says “All Players age 18 or older are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft,
    except…”, it means that all players age 18 or older are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft, unless they fall under one of the succeeding categories.

    Agree or disagree?

  124. DSF says:

    oilersfan:
    With all the relevant discussion of a bunch of laypeople’s understanding of the cba, I thought I might mention that OKC has won their first two games of the playoffs.
    Paajarvi with a goal in each game (suck it DSF!), Pitlick with an assist in each game and Marincin with an assist tonight, and is plus 3 so far in two playoff games.

    You may need to re-evaluate your position here.

    The AHL REGULAR season ends tomorrow.

    Paajarvi has now scored 7 goals and 25 points in 33 games in the AHL. (Shooting % 7.1)

    In other words, he’s batting .195 against Triple A pitching.

    Other than that, your post is very informative.

  125. DSF says:

    "Steve Smith":
    DSF,

    I’d like to pin you down, because if we work from the assumption that the document on the NHL website purporting to be the CBA is actually the CBA, we have perfect information and should be able to do this completely logically and identify the precise point of our disagreement.So, one proposition at a time:

    When 8.4(a) says “All Players age 18 or older are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft,
    except…”, it means that all players age 18 or older are eligible for claim in the Entry Draft, unless they fall under one of the succeeding categories.

    Agree or disagree?

    Agreed.

    God this is going to be painful.

    Can we jump ahead to the clause where it says a player who hasn’t been signed by the team that drafted after 4 years?

  126. Dave Casselman says:

    Lowetide,

    In part because it reminds us of Oiler playoff games of yore. And partially because it’s just damn good hockey. And partially because you, and I, would rather see a playoff game that the lead changes hands 226 times during the course of the game.

  127. "Steve Smith" says:

    DSF,

    Okay, good. Next proposition:

    None of the conditions described in 8.4(a), (i) though (v), will be applicable to Justin Schultz if he comes off Anaheim’s reserve list this spring.

    Agree or disagree?

  128. Bails14 says:

    oilersfan:
    With all the relevant discussion of a bunch of laypeople’s understanding of the cba, I thought I might mention that OKC has won their first two games of the playoffs.
    Paajarvi with a goal in each game (suck it DSF!), Pitlick with an assist in each game and Marincin with an assist tonight, and is plus 3 so far in two playoff games.

    AHL playoffs don’t start till April 16th. Barons played the Texas Stars today, but play San Antonio tomrrow. All the other stats are probably true though.

  129. jimbones100 says:

    DSF is proving to be more than your common troll. I used to despise DSF and had him labelled as your regular “let me piss in your cornflakes” poster. But in the last while he has proven to be able to more than hold his own with the big boys.

    First he takes WG the noted gambler out by the shed, “easy peasy” – and now he is teaching the smart ass lawyer SS a thing or two about the CBA.

    Well Done.

  130. Ducey says:

    Interesting that the Blues appear to have sat out a healthy Chris Stewart. He only had 30 pts this year. Is he just having a down season or is he going the way of Cheechoo?

    Brule also sat today. No surprise there.

  131. spoiler says:

    Re: Murray

    There is also the possibility the Oil are taking a closer look at the WHCs because they are willing to trade down. If CBJ were offering the 2nd and the LAK pick, it would be tough to turn down, if they really like Murray. From reports, it sounds like Murray has the leadership edge and that seems important to this management group.

    The Pat McLeans win in OT. Series evening up everywhere.

  132. PunjabiOil says:

    Oilers playing hardball with Ryan Smyth – Bertuzzi esque offer and will not be changing their position.

    Kind of silly how they will take such a hard stance on Smyth, but then throw money away for a Cam Barker.

  133. spoiler says:

    jimbones100:
    DSF is proving to be more than your common troll. I used to despise DSF and had him labelled as your regular “let me piss in your cornflakes” poster.But in the last while he has proven to be able to more than hold his own with the big boys.

    First he takes WG the noted gambler out by the shed, “easy peasy” – and now he is teaching the smart ass lawyer SS a thing or two about the CBA.

    Well Done.

    Great. Another poster with the reading comprehension of DSF. Perhaps DSF’s drawer is missing a sock.

    DSF keeps quoting a clause that has to do with a team’s reserve list and nothing to do with free agency and someone actually thinks that by being irrelevant he’s won an argument? 10 per cent into a bet and has won a bet? What a joke.

  134. Schitzo says:

    If nothing else comes of this Justin Schultz nonsense, at least we can all take solace in the fact that DSF can never again suggest that an appeal to authority is an invalid debate strategy.

  135. cabbiesmacker says:

    DSF: You may need to re-evaluate your position here.

    Other than that, your post is very informative.

    I saw what you did there.

    I chuckled.

  136. "Steve Smith" says:

    spoiler: Perhaps DSF’s drawer is missing a sock.

    Actually, I’ve noticed that he and Woodguy use an identical misspelling of “Schultz”. COINCIDENCE?

  137. oilersfan says:

    well that’s embarassing. I guess I assumed since the NHL was two games into the playoffs , and that the OKC entire homepage is about how they made the playoffs, that this weekedn was the AHL playoffs.

    Still, Paajarvi with a goal in two games in a row, Pitlick with an assist two games in a row, and Marincin with his first AHL point tonight. Now 1 assist, +3 in 4 AHL games.

    Paajarvi seems to be coming on DSF.

  138. cabbiesmacker says:

    russ99:
    As per capgeek, this summer (or early fall if a work stoppage happens), the Oilers have $21M in cap space, but they’ll need to give HORCOFF’s SALARY in raises to RFA’s Gagner, Petry and Dubnyk.

    I took the liberty of changing your original post a bit. I lick frozen handrails and work on my toaster while it’s plugged in too.

  139. cabbiesmacker says:

    “Steve Smith”: Actually, I’ve noticed that he and Woodguy use an identical misspelling of “Schultz”.COINCIDENCE?

    DSF = Da Same Fokker

  140. "Steve Smith" says:

    cabbiesmacker,

    But these Fokkers, they were Messerschmitts.

  141. godot10 says:

    PunjabiOil:
    Oilers playing hardball with Ryan Smyth – Bertuzzi esque offer and will not be changing their position.

    Kind of silly how they will take such a hard stance on Smyth, but then throw money away for a Cam Barker.

    They had plenty of cap room to risk one year on Barker. Smyth is a 35+ contract with Hall and Eberle getting paid real money a year from now, and Shea Weber as a UFA.

  142. peeps says:

    Off topic, but who watched the NY/Ottawa or SJ/St Louis games to ught, and had the following thoughts:
    - these games are exciting
    - the refs don’t seem to be calling anything at all
    - I don’t see how the Oilers will ever win a physical series with our existing top 6, even with a Yakupov

    I was enjoying the games until the third thought hit me, then I just kept drinking

  143. Marc says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    spoiler,

    If Wheeler was draft-eligible in 2008, I believe that the only reason he’d have passed through the draft is if teams didn’t realize that he was draft-eligible.And I’m plenty arrogant, but I have trouble believing that none of the NHL teams have legal departments as good as me.The Oilers, maybe, but all thirty?

    You might be selling yourself short here. I just checked the management structure of a few teams (the Oilers, and some good teams – Red Wings, Bruins, Flyers) and none of them appear to have a legal department as such. All but the Flyers have a lawyer in an executive position, but those lawyers seem to have a bunch of non-legal responsibilities as well.

    I suspect that teams instruct local law firms to do some of their legal work ie. commerical contracts with sponsors, and defer to their legally qualified executive on matters such as the CBA, but given that those execs have a lot responsibilities beyond legal work, I suspect that they may not actually have a detailed understanding of all the intricacies of the CBA.

    This particular scenario has only come up once before in this CBA. Teams had only 20 days between Phoenix losing exclusivity with Wheeler and the draft. Given all the work that teams have to do pre-draft – finalising the draft list, meeting with potential picks, exploring trades etc., as well as getting ready for free agency on July 1, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if none of the legally qualified execs sat down and figured out exactly what was going on with Wheeler under the CBA. Then after he signed with Boston, these guys probably had plenty of things going on with their own teams, and so never bothered to look into the situation after the fact. Everyone just sort of seems to have assumed that if a college guy plays tier 2 jr the first year after his draft, he can become a free agent on June 1 of his junior year of college (though you have to wait till July first to sign him) instead of August 15th of his senior year.

  144. Marc says:

    The guys that have both the time and the incentive to really understand the CBA are the player agents.

    And even if player agents know that under the CBA players in Wheeler’s position are eligible for the draft, it’s sure as hell not in their clients’ interests for that to be publicised. Not getting drafted means free agency for their client, whereas getting drafted would mean that the drafting team has the exclusive rights to their client for two years (by virtue of sections 8.6(a)(i) and (ii) and/or 8.6(c)(v)).

  145. Ryan says:

    DSF,

    I actually have always enjoyed the posts by DSF and Traktor over the years since I like seeing contrarian view points. That being said, From my one-time layman’s scan of the CBA, I would tend to agree with Smith. The language in the document doesn’t seem to show that they explicitly anticipated this type of scenario, but there’s still enough to provide restrictive parameters.

    LIke Speeds, however, I also assumed that DSF was a Canucks fan. It was touching to hear that he’s a frustrated OIlers fan like the rest of us albeit in his own sort of way.

    It sounds like Schultz would be draft eligible in either 2012 or 13 depending on whether or not he loopholes [8.6c(i) and 8.6c(ii)]. The potential loophole in that part of the CBA would seem to affect Schultz’s draft year eligibility (2013 vs 2012), but don’t provide him with UFA status.

    My 2 cents is that from the 2005 NHL PDF’s we’re all reading, it would seem that Schutz would have to go undrafted before he would be eligible for UFA status or he would have to be drafted to play in the NHL.

    As far as amendments to the 2005 CBA, I would think that they would have to have been announced like the onces triggered by Kovalchuk.

    As far as Marc’s comments, you would have to assume it falls under the rubric of fool me once, shame on you… fool me twice, shame on me. I would assume that most interested teams would be reviewing this situation and Boston would already have some depth of understanding from Wheeler.

    Either way, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

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