RE 12-13 DARCY HORDICHUK

The Edmonton Oilers continue a long standing tradition of enforcers on the roster with Darcy Hordichuk. Hordichuk is a good fit for the roster.

RE 12-13: 44, 0-2-2

  1. Why on earth would you think this is a good signing? Oilers are going to have an enforcer on the roster, it is in their DNA. So, better to have a 4 minute a night player than someone who thinks he’s a player.
  2. Do the Oilers really believe this is key? If you go back in history Edmonton has always had this kind of player. Semenko, McSorley, right through Laraque and now today.
  3. Laraque was a better fighter and player. Sure he was, no argument there. All of those guys listed above were better players. If last year’s Oilers would have had BG cycling down low on the 4line last season those Corsi numbers would have been better even with Lander.
  4. So they need a better enforcer? No. Because when the Oilers are any good the enforcer role is reduced, just like on other good teams. Laraque played only 5 minutes a night during the playoffs spring 2006.
  5. I don’t understand. The Oilers can’t let go of this idea. It’s in them. Remember the Hartnell hit on Paajarvi? That night Hordichuk took an instigator early on and that was all she wrote. He got his ass stapled to the bench. Meanwhile, Potter makes a clean check on Hartnell and he goes all Slap Shot! on Paajarvi’s knee.
  6. And what was the result? Renney’s no longer here and Hordichuk is talking smack.
  7. Do you think Krueger will let Hordichuk loose? Based on the verbal we discussed in the Eager RE and the recent Jason Gregor talk with Theo Peckham I’d say yes, at least to an extent.
  8. What extent? Well, you take a few stupid penalties and the other team scores, and pretty soon things change. You lose three of four on a homestand because your enforcer is running around and that gets changed in a quick hurry.
  9. Do you approve? At some level I think the Oilers have been too passive, but it’s my opinion that you need ‘actual NHL players’ who can be effective in real time. I don’t mean skating over to some guy after he drills Hall (ala Cory Sarich last year), but engaging the other side as a matter of game plan. Hitting is part of the game, separating player from the puck is an effective play. Don’t need to kill a guy, just end the sortie.
  10. Oilers don’t have any hitters. Sure they do. Sutton, Potter, Peckham, Nick Schultz on the back end and up front Eager, Hordichuk, Hartikainen, Smyth will all engage.
  11. So you’re fine with a 4-minute enforcer? Better than a 9-minute one.
  12. Don’t you get frustrated with having a roster spot tied up like this? I think Krueger might take advantage of having a bit player on the 4line and roll Hall (or another hot sniper) double on many nights.
  13. But do you like it? I deal with the fact the team I cheer for believes it is important, and am hopeful that one day the club will come to the conclusion they are better off with another penalty killer. But that’s in the distance.
  14. Doesn’t it get you riled up? No. I’ve been cheering for teams that do strange things since I was a kid. Gene Mauch used to bunt in the first inning, or have 5 guys who could play the middle infield–none of whom could hit a lick–so he could pull them out as needed. You won’t remember Larry Lintz or Pepe Frias or Jim Cox, but they used to  draw in and out of the lineup all the time.  Sometimes because Tim Foli got into a brawl but man Mauch had weird teams. His bench–Morales, Stinson–was often better than his starting lineup.
  15. So Hordichuk 4 minutes a night and for half a season. You bet.
  16. This is ridiculous. Why are you happy with this signing? The Oilers didn’t sign Brandon Prust or George Parros.

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70 Responses to "RE 12-13 DARCY HORDICHUK"

  1. Smarmy says:

    I like Darcy. It was a bit galling that Renney wanted some tough guys and then neutered them. Some games you just have to let Darcy run somebody. Sure he won’t be on the ice when one of the skill players gets run but he has no qualms running somebody else and he’s a decent enough skater and hitter to accomplish it. Plus he seems to pick his battles and will make his penalties count. (For a lack of a better phrase) He won’t just take a dumb minor for the sake of saying he did something.

    I’m fine with a few games a year where you let guys like Darcy and Eager be crazy. The team won’t mind killing a few penalties.

  2. Jordan says:

    Smarmy:
    I’m fine with a few games a year where you let guys like Darcy and Eager be crazy. The team won’t mind killing a few penalties.

    Only if they are in the offensive zone – aggressive penalties are much easier to kill off.

  3. Woodguy says:

    Kevin McClelland, Dave Semenko, Don Jackson, Marty McSorley, and Dave Brown all have Edmonton Oiler Stanley Cup rings.

    The game has changed a bit, but you are right that its in their DNA.

    This type of player on recent Conference Finalists:

    11/12

    LAK – Clifford
    PHX – Bissonette.
    NJD- Janssen,
    NYR – Prust

    10/11

    BOS – Thornton
    TBY- N/A
    VAN – Glass
    SJS – Mayers

    09/10

    CHI – N/A
    SJS – Staubitz
    PHI – Laperriere
    MTL – O”Byrne

    Its interesting to note that Colin Fraser had the 2nd most fights on 2 Cup teams during the regular season. LAK and CHI.

    When CHI won the cup, Eager led them in fights in the regular season, but he can actually play a regular shift.

    Thornton is like Eager that way, but shaded more to the fighter role imo, so I left him in. I could be wrong.

    TBY had Downie, but he’s more of the Eager type as well.

    I could go on, but its the same in the other years.

    Team, even Championship teams, have a guy like this.

    They may not play much in the playoffs, but they do in the regular season.

    I agree that its best to have one who is ok playing 5min a night and double shifting the kids in rotation on the 4th.

  4. bookje says:

    Woodguy,

    The disconnect between how guys like Fraser, Eager, and Hortichuk played here vs elsewhere give creedence to the argument that their was a misalignment between the team that the GM built and the way the coach was using them. Hopefully Krueger fixes all of that.

  5. Mr DeBakey says:

    Hopefully Krueger fixes all of that.

    Yeah, hopefully.
    I sure hope so.
    Here’s hoping.

    Maybe we should add a prayer.

  6. Traktor says:

    Alex Semin is still available. He has averaged 34 goals/82 games and is career +65.

    I know that Semin is Russian but if he isn’t worth a contract then why did we draft Yakupov? Does Yakupov project to be better than Semin?

    Edmonton could sign Semin and easily trade one of their other forwards to fill a need like 3C, top4D, or 1AG with Dubnyk.

    I know he doesn’t speak English but I bet he outscores Parise this year and wouldn’t cost 14 years and 100+ Million. Seems like you could really buy low on Semin compared to what Parise and some of the other top free agents signed for.

  7. Traktor says:

    Edmonton could deal Gags or Hemsky to Columbus for Artem Anisimov+ and rock an all Russian line.

    Hall – RNH – Eberle
    Semin – Anisimov – Yakupov
    Smyth – Horcoff – Hemsky
    MPS – Belanger – Jones

    That’s a pretty stacked forward group and if the 4th line can help the 3rd line with some shutdown minutes I think we could make the playoffs.

    Add Rozsival or Kubina on a 1-2 year deal and trade a bit of futures for Bernier to give Dubnyk some competition and I think Edmonton can do some damage.

  8. Rondo says:

    LT,

    Of all the rumours regarding D-men which one of these would be the most desirable for the Oilers.

    Andrej Sekera

    Fedor Tyutin

    Nikita Nikitin

    Tim Erixon

    Keith Yandle

    Jay Bouwmeester

    Mark Streit

  9. Scott Reynolds says:

    Woodguy,

    If you’re not including Eager, I’m not sure how you include some of those others. Clifford, Glass and Mayers played 9:00 a night. Laperriere was up over 12:00 and O’Byrne got 15:00 on the back end. All of those guys save Clifford played at least 1:00 per game on the PK too. They’re all valued for their toughness, but they’re all (at least) a cut above a guy like Hordichuk as hockey players too. I get what LT is saying about limiting the ice time for a player in this role, but if the choice is between a guy like Hordichuk and a guy like (pre-concussion) Laperriere, rolling with Hordichuk isn’t the right play.

  10. uni says:

    Traktor,

    Semin is reportedly looking for 6.5 million (having had offers of 10 million in the KHL but wants to stay in the NHL). The guys over at CopperNBlue, especially Zona have been banging the drum to sign the guy. Seems silly that all this fuss is being made over Parise and Nash when you can get a 30-40 goal sniper for 6.5 million per for 2-3 years.

  11. Bruce McCurdy says:

    That Philly game where Hartnell kneed Paajarvi and Hordichuk remained stapled to the bench was coached by Krueger. A 2-0 Oiler win. Renney returned from his concussion next game.

  12. Jordan says:

    uni:
    Traktor,
    Semin is reportedly looking for 6.5 million (having had offers of 10 million in the KHL but wants to stay in the NHL).The guys over at CopperNBlue, especially Zona have been banging the drum to sign the guy.Seems silly that all this fuss is being made over Parise and Nash when you can get a 30-40 goal sniper for 6.5 million per for 2-3 years.

    Well sure, if you’re only concerned about how many goals you produce for their cost… sure… that’d make sense.

    Of course, everyone knows it’s the team with the most poised players that wins the Stanley Cup.

    Isn’t that right, Tim Thomas?

  13. bookje says:

    Bruce McCurdy:
    That Philly game where Hartnell kneed Paajarvi and Hordichuk remained stapled to the bench was coached by Krueger. A 2-0 Oiler win. Renney returned from his concussion next game.

    Stop it. Krueger was coaching but was not the coach. Krueger is going to fix Hortichuk and Eager! Have faith.

  14. TheOtherJohn says:

    It is pretty interesting to read how many of the Oiler flaws today are laid at the feet of last years coach. Crummy roster….Coaches fault, not playing kids enough, coaches fault. Playing Horcoff, et all against other teams top players, again coaches fault. Did Ken Holland and Mike Babcock realize what a total failure they just signed as Associate coach?

    Improvement on PP and Pk, well clearly that is to someone else’s credit.

    Now Krueger may be the 2nd coming of Scottie Bowman (ok, actually he is WAY too old to assemble Bowman’s credentials by the time he retires, but it does make for a great albeit inaccurate story); but we did not end up 29th overall because of coaching. Expect with the horses Tambellini assembled that Scottie Bowman in his prime may have gotten last years team to 25th overall.

    Hordichuk is a mediocre player who is a decent heavyweight. if he has to fight a super heavyweight, he gets killed. But to suggest Krueger is somehow going to unleash the dogs of war (Hordichuk, Eager, Sutton Peckham) is both counterproductive and nonsensical.

    Forgot, Ralph will fill in all holes, etc

    Now rather than blaming Renney for the terrible Khabby contract, signing Barker, sheltering the kids etc, can management simply find time to get the “other” top 4 D man they were going to get us? Soon, because the season is gonna start December 10th and time she is a wasting

  15. TheOtherJohn says:

    Bookje

    What does “was coaching, but was not the coach” mean. because part of the fantastical narrative we get re Ralph is he coached the 5-1 road win over Calgary. Was he “coaching but was not the coach” then? Did the NCAA just remove that win from his record?

    Twas also the night, on about 8 shifts, Hordichuk iced the puck 3 times : comic relief

  16. Bruce McCurdy says:

    TheOtherJohn: the season is gonna start December 10th

    My fearless prediction is that the season will start on December 21, 2012.

    (Or not)

  17. bookje says:

    TheOtherJohn:
    It is pretty interesting to read how many of the Oiler flaws today are laid at the feet of last years coach. Crummy roster….Coaches fault, not playing kids enough, coaches fault. Playing Horcoff, et all against other teams top players, again coaches fault. Did Ken Holland and Mike Babcock realize what a total failure they just signed as Associate coach?

    Improvement on PP and Pk, well clearly that is to someone else’s credit.

    Now Krueger may be the 2nd coming of Scottie Bowman (ok, actually he is WAY too old to assemble Bowman’s credentials by the time he retires, but it does make for a great albeit inaccurate story); but we did not end up 29th overall because of coaching. Expect with the horses Tambellini assembled that Scottie Bowman in his prime may have gotten last years team to 25th overall.

    TOJ, you gotta have faith. If it doesn’t come true, its because people like you lacked faith!

  18. Ducey says:

    Traktor:
    Alex Semin is still available. He has averaged 34 goals/82 games and is career +65.
    I know that Semin is Russian but if he isn’t worth a contract then why did we draft Yakupov? Does Yakupov project to be better than Semin?
    Edmonton could sign Semin and easily trade one of their other forwards to fill a need like 3C, top4D, or 1AG with Dubnyk.
    I know he doesn’t speak English but I bet he outscores Parise this year and wouldn’t cost 14 years and 100+ Million. Seems like you could really buy low on Semin compared to what Parise and some of the other top free agents signed for.

    Either you see a hockey team as a bunch of robots who put up stats or you see them as people whose play will be influenced by things like emotion, confidence, attitude, morale, fear, greed etc.

    As a young player in the NHL I doubt its a real confidence boost to be challenged to a scrap and have to skate away and have that player try and initimidate you all night. Having a guy like Hordichuk tell the young player: “Its not your job to fight, I’ll take care of him” is likely a more positive situation.

    As a GM you don’t want your team to be bullied. Maybe Detroit and their crop of vets can just shrug off the threats (althought they just signed Tootoo) but a GM doesn’t want to take the chance a bunch of young players probably wouldn’t respond well. You play Hordichuk when you are playing bullies. Don’t play him when you are not.

    As for Semin, there is no doubt that he will put up the points but the impact in the dressing room can’t be ignored. I am always of the impression that one of the reasons players play in Edmonton (if they have a choice) is the tight dressing room they tend to have. Having Semin’s poor attitude rub off on the young players just isn’t worth it.

    You may say Semin isn’t the no-trying, bitter, weird cancer he has been made out to be. Thats probably true. But there is little doubt he doesn’t smile, doesn’t seem to enjoy playing hockey (he might, but doesn’t show it), isn’t going to deal with the media, and is not a leader.

    Let him sign with a team with a veteran core who can deal with his intricacies.

  19. OilClog says:

    This is a wasted contract, I have no problem carrying a enforcer on the team, sadly Hordichuk is not that. He tries, and give him props for it.. But he scares no one, intimidates no one, Laraque would be a better choice right now. Staple him to the bench until needed, then unleash.

    Also Ryan Smyth is one of the worst hitters ever, he’s a smooth veteran at protecting himself, but a hitter.. It’s like saying he has one hell of a slapper..

  20. Traktor says:

    Ducey:

    You may say Semin isn’t the no-trying, bitter, weird cancer he has been made out to be. Thats probably true. But there is little doubt he doesn’t smile, doesn’t seem to enjoy playing hockey (he might, but doesn’t show it), isn’t going to deal with the media, and is not a leader.

    I would say Semin’s intangibles are almost the same as Hemsky’s except Semin is a better hockey player.

  21. OilClog says:

    Ducey,

    You’ve been in the capitals dressing room? You’ve ate dinners with Semin? You’ve closely followed the man’s career thus far? you’ve interviewed players that have nothing good to say.. All this Semin is venom to a team talk is crap. Semin is a good hockey player, and shouldn’t be thrown under the bus because msm says so. Would he fit here, not unless we subtract, but adding a Talent like Semin is a win. The Capitals as a whole went down the drain, it’s crazy how it’s all one mans fault.

  22. Jordan says:

    OilClog,

    There’s been a lot of suggestions by people all over the hockey world that Semin’s attitude is a part of the problem. I’m lazy, and not going to source them, but if you don’t beleive me, go look for yourself.

    Considering how hard the Oilers have worked to keep players who don’t want to be a part of “the team” away from the org, they won’t take a risk on him, regardless of his hockey upside.

    Some people might call it the “one bad apple can spoil the bunch” philosophy towards building a winning team and organization. Mike Comrie called it communism.

    Whatever you want to call it, it’s how they run things here.

  23. Ducey says:

    OilClog,

    I don’t know Semin but Matt Bradley does.

    He said: “I don’t mind saying Alexander Semin’s name, because he’s one guy who has so much talent, he could easily be the best player in the league, and just for whatever reason, just doesn’t care,” Bradley said. “You need him to be your best player, or one of your best players, and when he doesn’t show up, you almost get the sense that he wants to be back in Russia.”

    As the article points out, the Russians didn’t want him for the World Championship team.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/capitals/on-hockey-matt-bradley-is-spot-on-with-critical-comments-about-capitals-alexander-semin/2011/08/17/gIQA6sw5LJ_story.html

    Traktor: I would say Semin’s intangibles are almost the same as Traktor’s except Semin is a better hockey player.

    Fixed it for you.

  24. commonfan14 says:

    OilClog: You’ve been in the capitals dressing room? You’ve ate dinners with Semin? You’ve closely followed the man’s career thus far? you’ve interviewed players that have nothing good to say

    From former teammate Matt Bradley:

    “I don’t mind saying Alexander Semin’s name, because he’s one guy who has so much talent, he could easily be the best player in the league, and just for whatever reason, just doesn’t care.

    “When you’ve got a guy like that, you need him to be your best player, or one of your best players, and when he doesn’t show up, you almost get the sense that he wants to be back in Russia. That’s tough to win when you’ve got a guy like that who’s supposed to be your best player not being your best player, or one of your best players.”

    I wonder if Semin could sue Bradley over those quotes if he can’t get the contract he wants. It seems like they may have played a part in potentially costing him a lot of money.

  25. TheOtherJohn says:

    Bruce

    To save winter Classic leafs/Red Wings, NHL needs to have season start a wee bit earlier. That game/event is SO big, they may actually have some pressure to get a deal done by then. But if we miss that deadline, I could see us miss an entire season. That would be terrible!!

    Craziness of labour situation makes our signing of Yak this week so very important.

    Bookje

    Not sure my faith in what we are told is managements plan is gonna effect the Oiler team. It is the players you dress. Last year we dressed way too many bad players. Most of them are back, save Yak and j Schultz.. Not sure 29th place team with 2 rookies is gonna compete, faith or not

  26. Woodguy says:

    Scott Reynolds,

    Those are all good points, I was more or less defending the role of the tough guy in today’s game for those who say good teams don’t have one.

    I’d say playing someone like Mayers for 9:00 is worse than playing Hordi 5:00 though.

    Basically all these guys are Corsi black holes, so if you can fill the “need” with 5:00 of a bad player instead of 9:00 of a bad player, you are further ahead.

  27. Ducey says:

    NAS matches the offer on Weber.

  28. bookje says:

    See you guys in a while, I am off to that place where Steve Smith was a while ago.

  29. Mr DeBakey says:

    A lot of this Semin crap is Halak’s fault.
    If he hadn’t posted that insane Save % in the play-offs a few years back, who know how far the Caps might’ve gone.
    Who knows how many holes they’d have shot in Loser Theory that’s developed around the team and its stars.

    I’ve read it said that players like having a goonster or two beside them on the bench or ice. So, while I’d normally tend to side with the sign-a-player-for-gawdsakes types, I prefer to remain mum on the topic.

    The 7 defensemen:
    Fedor Tyutin & Jay Bouwmeester have No Trade/Move contracts.
    Tim Erixon is all potential at this point, the Oilers already have a tonne of that in the system.
    Keith Yandle has low-ish QC numbers, kills it, and is signed for many years. Could he hold his offense while playing overall tougher opponents?
    Mark Streit is UFA in a year, wait for him.
    That leaves Sekera & Nikitin. Sekera is more of a Gilbertish good at everything type. Nikitin generates more offense. Nikitin is probably the better of the two, though either would help.
    Nikitin.

  30. Ducey says:

    bookje: See you guys in a while, I am off to that place where Steve Smith was a while ago.

    Lawschool?

  31. Mr DeBakey says:

    Prison

  32. OilClog says:

    Who says Semin doesn’t want to be part of a team? Does Washington ridiculous philosophy of taking a highly offensive team and turning it on its head because it didn’t fully pay off due to a hot goaltender..not play a factor? Isnt Ovi the same then? Actually watch Semin play.. When the msm was crying about his lack of goals they always swept his shot total under the rug. Is McGuire says he’s garbage, then man is the exact opposite. I really hope the oilers don’t freak out like Washington and decide scoring is awful and we unload our talent because of it.

  33. hunter1909 says:

    OilClog,

    Oilers are a team that’s won multiple cups in it’s history, and has gone the extra mile in retaining some of the best and brightest minds in hockey from that era.

    Capitals are a more or less perennial mediocre or simply bad team, which for the past few years has had the luxury of being able to build around Ovechkin…now…just because they’ve pretty well fucked Ovechkin up and face another trip back down to the bottom of the standings – doesn’t particularly mean anything viz the Oilers.

  34. Truth says:

    http://oilersnation.com/2012/7/4/hordichuk-ralph-and-i-are-on-the-same-page

    Great signing. It’s too bad Laraque didn’t have Hordichuk’s attitude or he would be a great asset. Wasn’t Laraque the mascot for the Green party or something at one point? Hordichuk knows his role and plays within it, he doesn’t think that he would best serve his team by trying to contain the puck in the offensive corner or throw in the odd goal. He’s on the bench to ensure nothing gets out of hand and although he might not win all his fights he will fight anyone and everyone. Best quote of that that transcript of Jason Gregor’s interview with him is the bit that he doesn’t mind taking a suspension to make sure everyone knows where the line is and not to cross it. Just a good Canadian kid as Grapes would say.

  35. stevezie says:

    OilClog:
    Who says Semin doesn’t want to be part of a team? Does Washington ridiculous philosophy of taking a highly offensive team and turning it on its head because it didn’t fully pay off due to a hot goaltender..not play a factor? Isnt Ovi the same then? Actually watch Semin play.. When the msm was crying about his lack of goals they always swept his shot total under the rug. Is McGuire says he’s garbage, then man is the exact opposite. I really hope the oilers don’t freak out like Washington and decide scoring is awful and we unload our talent because of it.

    Fudge yeah. Trying to drive that sports car like a dump truck was indefensilbly stupid. Taking more than two years to win a cup is not a gin that your system is broken. Winning a cup is hard and takes luck. LA won because they had zero injuries to defenceman, for example. Good to be lucky, lucky to be good. If you are good, just keep trying and youw ill eventually get lucky.

    LT, I don’t understand why you’d prefer a 4 minutes enforcer to a 9 minute one. Doesn’t the latter imply a better player? Prust costs way too much, but all tings being equal he is alegit penalty killer. Thornton is a ten goal, decent player. There are those who swear Parros is a better player than he gets credit for. Do you just not want the contract, or… I can’t think of another option. What is the advantage to an enforcer being worse at hockey? It’s easier to bench him?

  36. "Steve Smith" says:

    Truth: Best quote of that that transcript of Jason Gregor’s interview with him is the bit that he doesn’t mind taking a suspension to make sure everyone knows where the line is and not to cross it.

    You know what you get suspended for? Trying to injure people (beyond the de minimis range), or showing reckless disregard for whether you do. Darcy Hordichuk is saying that he doesn’t mind trying to injure people to secure an advantage (which is more perceived than real – ed.) in a hockey game.

    You’re welcome to your values, but there are plenty of us “good Canadian kids”* who find that contemptible.

    * If Darcy Hordichuk qualifies as a kid, so do I.

  37. DSF says:

    Woodguy:
    Scott Reynolds,

    Those are all good points, I was more or less defending the role of the tough guy in today’s game for those who say good teams don’t have one.

    I’d say playing someone like Mayers for 9:00 is worse than playing Hordi 5:00 though.

    Basically all these guys are Corsi black holes, so if you can fill the “need” with 5:00 of a bad player instead of 9:00 of a bad player, you are further ahead.

    Or,you could pay someone like Zenon Konopka or Shawn Thornton to do the job.

    They at least bring some skill to the table.

    Hordichuk, not so much.

  38. Scott Reynolds says:

    Woodguy,
    DSF,

    This makes me wonder about why teams carry so many players in the first place. I mean, the reality is that Mayers for nine minutes or Hordichuk for five are both pretty poor options. These players are athletic enough to play a lot, so it seems like you’d be better off carrying, say, ten forwards and eight defenders per game with an extra forward in the pressbox. You’d be able to spend more on good players because you’re not wasting ~ $1.5M on your bottom two slots, and your best players would be on the ice way more often. A player like Belanger would be great as the 10th guy because he can fill in anywhere in case of injury or poor play, is good on draws, good on the PK, and can do some DZ work at evens.

  39. Wolfpack says:

    I don’t mind Hordichuk in a limited role – I can remember enough games last year where he threw hits or chirped opponents, and whether he was effective at it or not, the Oilers need more of that. Any player that makes the Oilers more difficult to play against is going to be someone I can cheer for. I don’t put too much stock in his trash-talking in the offseason – it’s what fighters do whether it is boxing, MMA, whatever.

    LT – I noticed you added Google’s ad code to your site to bring in some pennies. You’ll need to downsize your logo at the top of each page a bit, as it is cutting off the 728X90 leaderboard ad unit.

  40. "Steve Smith" says:

    Wolfpack,

    Insofar as playing hockey entails scoring and preventing goals, Hordichuk makes the Oilers easier to play against, not harder.

  41. Woodguy says:

    DSF: Oilers are a team that’s won multiple cups in it’s history, and has gone the extra mile in retaining some of the best and brightest minds in hockey from that era.

    Two more players where the play goes to die.

    I’d rather double shift Yak and Hall.

  42. Woodguy says:

    Scott Reynolds:
    Woodguy,
    DSF,

    This makes me wonder about why teams carry so many players in the first place. I mean, the reality is that Mayers for nine minutes or Hordichuk for five are both pretty poor options. These players are athletic enough to play a lot, so it seems like you’d be better off carrying, say, ten forwards and eight defenders per game with an extra forward in the pressbox. You’d be able to spend more on good players because you’re not wasting ~ $1.5M on your bottom two slots, and your best players would be on the ice way more often. A player like Belanger would be great as the 10th guy because he can fill in anywhere in case of injury or poor play, is good on draws, good on the PK, and can do some DZ work at evens.

    Haven’t some coaches moved to 11 and 7?

    8 Dmen on the bench may lead to cold legs for key guys if you have to keep rotating.

  43. Bar_Qu says:

    Ducey,

    Theory of Ice had a few words on the Semin issue:

    http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/07/23/alex-semin-and-the-politics-of-performance/

    And to take Matt Bradley’s opinion on a guy who’s jockstrap he isn’t qualified to carry is ridiculous. Matt Bradley has a total of 149 points in 675 games (Semin had 221 in just over 200 games), had a RelCorsi of -20.9 in 45 games (Semin was 11.0 in 77, playing 4 mins more per game), which if we assume that getting points and moving the puck in the right direction wins hockey games, makes Semin on his worst night infinitely more valuable as a hockey player than Bradley. But, hey, TRY is important right? The girl grunting the loudest in tennis always wins, the guy who skates as hard as he can every shift is better for a team than a player who coasts occasionally and puts the puck in the net frequently.

    This abhorrence of Semin based on hearsay and ‘intangibles’ is total crap and indefensible from every angle. Ty Cobb, Patrick Roy and Chris Pronger say hi.

  44. "Steve Smith" says:

    I haven’t seen anybody post it here, yet, but Nashville matches the Weber offer sheet.

  45. Bar_Qu says:

    And there’s this too

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/free_agency/2012/07/24/alexander_semin_worth_the_risk_free_agent_washington_capitals/#.UA8Ip2msKes.twitter

    but, hey, he wouldn’t fit in Edmonton very well. Low poise/60 or some such crap.

  46. Ducey says:

    "Steve Smith": Wolfpack, Insofar as playing hockey entails scoring and preventing goals, Hordichuk makes the Oilers easier to play against, not harder.

    In so far as schools provide education and discipline, the use of funds on a janitor reduces the quality of education.

  47. Bar_Qu says:

    Ducey: In so far as schools provide education and discipline, the use of funds on a janitor reduces the quality of education.

    Especially when said janitor is used to teach calculus.

  48. "Steve Smith" says:

    Ducey: In so far as schools provide education and discipline, the use of funds on a janitor reduces the quality of education.

    This is a perfect parallel, provided that there is statistical evidence of schools becoming worse at education and discipline once a janitor sets foot in them.

  49. Jordan says:

    Woodguy: Two more players where the play goes to die.

    I’d rather double shift Yak and Hall.

    You realize that Belanger is 4C right now. Would you really risk letting those players play in the Belanger Triangle?

    No, you know what? To hell with it – You’d have to be crazier than meth addict on bath salts to risk playing those players with Belanger.

  50. commonfan14 says:

    Bar_Qu: And to take Matt Bradley’s opinion on a guy who’s jockstrap he isn’t qualified to carry is ridiculous. Matt Bradley has a total of 149 points in 675 games (Semin had 221 in just over 200 games), had a RelCorsi of -20.9 in 45 games (Semin was 11.0 in 77, playing 4 mins more per game), which if we assume that getting points and moving the puck in the right direction wins hockey games, makes Semin on his worst night infinitely more valuable as a hockey player than Bradley.

    So now people are bringing RelCorsi into discussions about whether a player is qualified to talk about how be directly observed one of his teammates affect others on the team? I’d say that’s more than a little overboard in the “stats are everything” department.

  51. Scott Reynolds says:

    Woodguy,

    I haven’t noticed that phenomenon. Do you know of someone doing going with 11 and 7 consistently?

    As for the cold legs issue, why would it be an issue for defenders but not forwards (who rotate through four groups now)? There’s no reason you couldn’t shorten your bench early in the game for defenders just as teams do now for forwards. If it weren’t for the CBA mandating that 18 skaters be dressed (except in the case of an emergency), I’d be arguing for 10 forwards and 7 defenders to cut another spot and save a bit more money.

  52. spoiler says:

    "Steve Smith": This is a perfect parallel, provided that there is statistical evidence of schools becoming worse at education and discipline once a janitor sets foot in them.

    And so you have evidence that not using an enforcer increases the scoring and preventing of goals by the skill players?

  53. "Steve Smith" says:

    spoiler,

    No, I have evidence that, when enforcers are on the ice, the team employing them is worse at both scoring and preventing goals (which is why I didn’t say “…provided that there is statistical evidence that schools without janitors have teachers that can teach better”, which would have been the appropriate parallel in that case).

    It is of course possible that this is not a causal relationship (although it almost certainly is), and also possible that their negative impact on scoring and preventing goals while they’re on the ice is offset by some impact they have when they’re off the ice. But given the evidence we have, it seems to me that the burden is on advocates of that position to adduce statistical evidence in support of it. I am not aware that any have.

    I also have evidence that, on a team-to-team basis, fighting is negatively correlated with winning. I do not purport to have shown that that is a causal relationship, however, or at least not in any one direction.

  54. Bar_Qu says:

    commonfan14,

    I use the stats to show that Matt Bradley might have a ton of try, but the fact is he can’t play hockey much beyond the AHL level. And I put my comments in context of Time of Ice’s article where she says the level of ‘try’ or ‘caring’ in an individual human being is a completely immeasurable quality, being contained entirely in a person’s head. And any external evidence is based solely on learned behaviours which people ascribe to ‘hard work’, despite the fact they really mean nothing.

    To sum up, a player’s value is directly proportional to his ability to help a team win. Semin has high value, Bradley near negative value; to have the latter criticise the former smacks a little (a lot) of sour grapes, imo. (which, now that I write it, strikes me as ironic – my opinion of another person’s opinion – as substantial as air, that).

  55. spoiler says:

    "Steve Smith": No, I have evidence that, when enforcers are on the ice, the team employing them is worse at both scoring and preventing goals (which is why I didn’t say “…provided that there is statistical evidence that schools without janitors have teachers that can teach better”, which would have been the appropriate parallel in that case).It is of course possible that this is not a causal relationship (although it almost certainly is), and also possible that their negative impact on scoring and preventing goals while they’re on the ice is offset by some impact they have when they’re off the ice. But given the evidence we have, it seems to me that the burden is on advocates of that position to adduce statistical evidence in support of it. I am not aware that any have.I also have evidence that, on a team-to-team basis, fighting is negatively correlated with winning. I do not purport to have shown that that is a causal relationship, however, or at least not in any one direction.

    I prefer that the burden of proof be on those advocating something different from what virtually all teams do.

  56. "Steve Smith" says:

    spoiler,

    You should try this new cologne – Eau d’Authorité. I think you’d find it appealing.

  57. Woodguy says:

    Jordan: You realize that Belanger is 4C right now.Would you really risk letting those players play in the Belanger Triangle?

    No, you know what?To hell with it – You’d have to be crazier than meth addict on bath salts to risk playing those players with Belanger.

    I think that Belanger will have a bounce back year.

    Playing with a top 6 winger rotating in won’t hurt.

  58. Ducey says:

    Bar_Qu: Ducey, Theory of Ice had a few words on the Semin issue:http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/07/23/alex-semin-and-the-politics-of-performance/And to take Matt Bradley’s opinion on a guy who’s jockstrap he isn’t qualified to carry is ridiculous. Matt Bradley has a total of 149 points in 675 games (Semin had 221 in just over 200 games), had a RelCorsi of -20.9 in 45 games (Semin was 11.0 in 77, playing 4 mins more per game), which if we assume that getting points and moving the puck in the right direction wins hockey games, makes Semin on his worst night infinitely more valuable as a hockey player than Bradley. But, hey, TRY is important right? The girl grunting the loudest in tennis always wins, the guy who skates as hard as he can every shift is better for a team than a player who coasts occasionally and puts the puck in the net frequently.This abhorrence of Semin based on hearsay and ‘intangibles’ is total crap and indefensible from every angle. Ty Cobb, Patrick Roy and Chris Pronger say hi.

    Not sure anyone ever suggested Cobb, Roy, or Pronger lacked compete. Quite the opposite.

    No offense, but I’ll take the facts over your opinion:
    1)His team let him walk for nothing
    2)His ex teammate who hung out with him for 6 seasons threw him under the bus (and according to the article I linked above his other team mates didn’t really disagree)
    3)his national team didn’t want him
    4)no GM has signed him in 54 days despite all the genius advice from guys on the internet.
    5)MSM guys who are around the team all the time have nothing good to say about him
    6)he has 12 pts in his last 30 playoff games over the last 3 seasons including 4 in 14 games last season
    7) there is no evidence of any attempts by KHL teams to grab him

    But he scores and gets shots, so he must be just what the Oilers need…we are back to robots that just churn out stats regardless of the circumstances around them.

  59. Ducey says:

    "Steve Smith": This is a perfect parallel, provided that there is statistical evidence of schools becoming worse at education and discipline once a janitor sets foot in them.

    I’M still waiting for the evidence that teams win less over an 82 game sched. because they have a scrapper playing 4 minutes a night, 44 games a season

  60. Woodguy says:

    Scott Reynolds:
    Woodguy,

    I haven’t noticed that phenomenon. Do you know of someone doing going with 11 and 7 consistently?

    As for the cold legs issue, why would it be an issue for defenders but not forwards (who rotate through four groups now)? There’s no reason you couldn’t shorten your bench early in the game for defenders just as teams do now for forwards. If it weren’t for the CBA mandating that 18 skaters be dressed (except in the case of an emergency), I’d be arguing for 10 forwards and 7 defenders to cut another spot and save a bit more money.

    Given that two sets of forwards see 2-3x more TOI than 4th line, coaches already keep the important legs legs warm. Special teams also play an important part in that too.

    On the crackberry, when at an actual computer will try to find who is using 11-7.

    Top of my head, you’d want your 10-11 F to be PK guys.

  61. buster says:

    @ Steve Smith……But given the evidence we have, it seems to me that the burden is on advocates of that position to adduce statistical evidence in support of it. I am not aware that any have.

    Everybody could look for the statistical information you demand or we could take a moment to ask actual hockey players how they feel about having a teammate who will take on hockeys toughest job to help insure they aren’t abused because of their skills. When looking for someone qualified to speak to the issue we might want to start with Wayne Gretzky. Or do you, “Steve”, purport to understand the game more then Wayne because you only look up statistics to support your shaky theories??

  62. spoiler says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    spoiler,

    You should try this new cologne – Eau d’Authorité.I think you’d find it appealing.

    Lol. I’ll take your word for it.

    And, as everyone knows, in any debate the burden of proof is on those who want change from the status quo. Surely we all remember that much from our janitored high schools.

  63. "Steve Smith" says:

    buster: Everybody could look for the statistical information you demand or we could take a moment to ask actual hockey players how they feel about having a teammate who will take on hockeys toughest job to help insure they aren’t abused because of their skills.

    We could indeed do either. The first way is more legitimate.

  64. Bar_Qu says:

    Ducey,

    I appeal to stats because there is no argument to counter, “he’s a lazy player who’s poisonous in the room” with anything more substantial than “I’m like rubber, you’re like glue…”

  65. buster says:

    “Steve Smith”,

    Absolutely, listening to a stats nerd who cherry picks his stats is far more legitimate than listening to the best player to ever put on skates ( unless you have stats to prove Wayne wasn’t).
    By the way, just because you might be legitimate doesn’t make you brighter or more correct than someone who is illegitimate.

  66. TheOtherJohn says:

    Duce

    Who are the teams dressing a knuckle-dragger 82 games a year? 45 games a year? 30 gamesa year?Those teams must be coached by last years Renney (aka the dumbest man in the world) because if you dress a knuckle-dragger against Detroit you are beyond an idiot.

    P.s. I liked Renney. Thought he was a decent coach, was given chicken s&#t and was asked to make chicken salad. Tough to do with the unbalanced roster we had last year

  67. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Ducey,

    Bar_Qu,

    There is also this:

    http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2012/7/7/3142627/refutation-of-stupid-semin-arguments

    I don’t think appeals to the wisdom of the old boys club and an ex-teammate with a grudge make for an argument.

    The anti-Semin arguments seem to boil down to “poor fighting skills” = ???, “he’s Russian”, he has “bad body language” and more along these lines.

    The guy is guilty of getting a crap rap…

  68. Truth says:

    “Steve Smith”,

    I agree that one way to get suspended is to attempt to injure. Other ways would include jumping off the bench to join an altercation after the play has stopped, doing something blatantly disrespectful to the general public (flipping the crowd the bird, for example), intentionally harming the referee, improper equipment, etc. Most of which I would not agree with (however I wouldn’t be against an Oiler enforcer getting a few games for jumping the bench if the Nuge or alike was getting pummeled), but you are correct that Hordichuk saying that is to attain an advantage. Much alike every single hockey coach I had as a kid telling the team to hit hard and hit often early in the game int the attempt to intimidate the opposing players to think twice about going into the corner, cutting to the middle, receive passes, etc. I believe this somewhat works the same. If Hordichuk has to dust up Sarich a bit even though Sarich is cowered on the ice and Hordichuk takes a game or two I would be willing to bet Sarich would remember that the next time he steps on the ice against the Oilers, as would those who witnessed it. Say thats not true and I don’t believe you’ve ever played hockey.

    I am yet to come across someone who has played competitive hockey (or at least competitive enough that fighting recieves a major and not a game misconduct) that is more hesitant in throwing the elbow into a guys face knowing that the opposing team has a player that will kick the snot out of you. Not saying that it doesn’t happen and everyone will be intimidated, but I’d rather be on the team with the guy that will break your nose just because than playing against him. Same goes for the pros, I have heard and read countless quotes of pro players saying intimidation is a factor.

  69. stevezie says:

    I liked what Souray had to say about intimidation. We have to remember that almost everyone who makes the NHL considers themselves tough, and absolutely everyone is getting paid dumptrucks full of money. I would fight George Parros to keep my million dollar job and so would you, and in the modern NHL you might not even have to fight if you didn’t want to because that’s just the way it works. (Perfect example: Dustin Brown).

    That said, there is still an effect. In Souray’s words, knowing a tough guy is out there “slows ou down.” You still hit, and trash talk and maybe even throw some elbow, but you think twice, hit a touch softer, hesitate a little. I don’t know if that’s enough of an effect, but it’s out there.

  70. stevezie says:

    Connected note: I think you could argue it’s okay for a fighter to get suspended for fighting someone who doesn’t want to fight. It depends on the circumstances. If Paul Bissonette jumps Zetterberg, he’s a jerk. If Biz calls out Brown for the Rosival hit and Brown declines… in this situation Bissonette is not getting paid to avoid a suspension.

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