WEBER OFFER SHEET: PHILLY

Flyers. 14 years upwards of $100M as per Darren Dreger. Lordy.

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51 Responses to "WEBER OFFER SHEET: PHILLY"

  1. wordbird says:

    How does this affect the Flyers cap-wise? Does someone shake loose?

    And does this mean our GM swoops in majestically and comes away with something useful for the Oil?

  2. jfry says:

    it’s really tough watching teams push these insane contracts right up until the cba deadline knowing they’re fighting against them in the future.

  3. Lucinius says:

    It must suck to be a Predator fan right now.

  4. Wes Mantooth-11 says:

    I wonder if the Oilers were one of the 4 teams mentioned?

  5. Wes Mantooth-11 says:

    Does Nashville take the picks? Nashville is in a tough place now, but a shrewd move by Philly.

    Your not trading him to us, will just take him thank you very much.

    Jeez wish our GM had some balls to make a move.

  6. stevezie says:

    wordbird:
    How does this affect the Flyers cap-wise? Does someone shake loose?

    Unless I’m confused, definitely. Good news for everyone who wants something the Flyers have.

    Lucinius:
    It must suck to be a Predator fan right now.

    I think this is great for them. Now they know they can sign Weber. Before there was a chance he goes to free agency and they lose him for nothing (again), but now they can just match, and voila! He’s theirs.

    Any other team and I’d shy away from the deal, but Nashville? Don’t they kind of hafta? Especially if it’s only two firsts, a second and a third?

  7. stevezie says:

    Wes Mantooth-11:
    Does Nashville take the picks?Nashville is in a tough place now, but a shrewd move by Philly.

    Your not trading him to us, will just take him thank you very much.

    Jeez wish our GM had some balls to make a move.

    Really? This is not a movie I would be anxious to make. Term deals are loaded with so much risk that it only makes sense when there is no other option. Nashville is in that place of desperation. I don’t think Edmonton is- yet. I don’t think Philly is either, frankly. I’d gladly part with the picks, but not the term.

  8. oilersfan says:

    the only dman making any money Philly has without a NTC is Meszaros.

    What do the fancy stats say about him? He’d probably be available for a third

  9. oilersfan says:

    two bad nobody has details of the deal, It must be very front end loaded. Probably 10-15 million per year for the first 5-10 years with a big decline after, so Nashville would have a tough time paying it.

    THat being said, they must have been budgeting for Weber and Suter so only having to pay one is at least possible. They just sign him and its done for 14 years.

  10. jb says:

    Wow that’s surprising! I don’t know about these long term deals though… is there some sort of loophole to get out of them? Like a good ol retirement/oh hey I’m back type thing? I know Vancouver fans likes to think they can deal Luongo whenever they’d like.. but I honestly believe they’re stuck with the guy.

    Meszaros could be a good option for sure.

  11. wordbird says:

    Philly, NYR, Detroit and San Jose.

    Oiler brass were busy catching up on ‘Murder She Wrote’ via Netflix.

  12. Wes Mantooth-11 says:

    stevezie,

    With the upcoming CBA, I wonder if Philly made the term to both scare Nashville out of matching but also to have Weber grandfathered in should the CBA term gets changed?

  13. stevezie says:

    oilersfan:
    two bad nobody has details of the deal, It must be very front end loaded. Probably 10-15 million per year for the first 5-10 years with a big decline after, so Nashville would have a tough time paying it.

    THat being said, they must have been budgeting for Weber and Suter so only having to pay one is at least possible. They just sign him and its done for 14 years.

    If they think they can trade him for more than four late 1sts they can sign him and trade him next year. Of course, they’d still need to find the cash for one year, but they could do that, couldn’t they?

  14. mumbai max says:

    If the compensation is 4 firsts, and if the report of 26 m up front is also true I would let him go.
    That return is nothing to sneeze at. Would he get 4 firsts on the open market? Probably
    not. There is also great value in having flexibility coming out of this CBA round.
    What if the cap goes to 60? Prudent teams will not be handcuffed. Not to mention that
    it is likely all those shiny firsts will be cheaper and will have longer ELC’s.

    Philly is going to have massive money tied up in G and D. Sometimes bold equals foolish.
    Sometimes a little dithering goes a long way!

  15. remember reijo says:

    Opens up another playoff spot if he signs in the East. Im all for it just for that. Suter and Weber….how does a team recover from that. They would go from the strongest D to one of the weakest in a matter of a week.

  16. remember reijo says:

    Not a bad move for the Flyers in the sense that either they get him or he stays out of the East though.

  17. franksterra says:

    mumbai max,

    You coud argue that he’d fetch far more value than 4 1st round picks though, esp. as Philly’s picks are unlikely to be above 20th or so for some time.

    in a trade (a signed) Weber could fetch 1 or 2 firsts, a very good established still-young forward, a decent d-man and/or an extremely promising D-prospect, and very likely another valuable lower-level roster player or high upside prospect,

    E.g., I’d say our 1st rounder, Gagner, N.Schultz, Klefbom and Jones have more value than four 20-30th place picks.

  18. SpotTheLoon says:

    It will be interesting to see what happens as a result of this. If Nashville matches the offer, which I think they ultimately will, how does Weber feel about returning and being locked in for 14 years in Nashville? Maybe it isn’t an issue and he was simply looking for that long term guarantee before a new CBA comes in and limits the length of contracts. Lots of story angles could come of this. But it certainly rocked the hockey world last night.

    Also, why would the Oilers be involved in this? I see some of the above posters are annoyed that Tamby wasn’t in the mix. Wouldn’t signing Weber to a big ticket cap hit like this simply push the Oilers into cap management hell sooner? As a hockey signing, I get it. But the cap system is the trump card in most signings these days.

    If Nashville chooses not to match, maybe Weber can play goal for the Flyers as that seems to be their biggest issue as far as I can see. ;-)

  19. knighttown says:

    I see people complaining that the Oilers weren’t in on this. The teams that were, Flyers, Wings, Rangers, Sharks are no accident. It’s way less expensive for them than it is for the Oilers. Let me explain:

    There’s a Ford F-150 (Webber) available for purchase. It’s value is calculated at around $30,000 (4-mid first round draft picks). Some people just may not need a truck so aren’t interested but those that are agree that $30,000 is a fair, if steep, price. Now how would you feel if you heard some people were being offered the truck for $15,000 (4 crappy first round draft picks). How much worse again would you feel if you knew that you would have to pay $80,000 (4 Top 5 or 10 first round draft picks).

    This is exactly what’s happening here. Precisely the teams that need the services of Shea Webber (Islanders, Habs) have to pay WAY MORE than those that don’t even need the guy (Flyers, Wings). If the Oilers had made an equivalent purchase four years ago the cost would have been Paajarvi, Hall, Nugent Hopkins and Yakupov. If the Wings made that move the cost would have been Brendan Smith, Jakub Kindly, Riley Sheahan and Tommy McCollum. One deal is a huge overpay and the other is a massive bargain.

    This system is the equivalent of running the NHL entry draft in direct order of how the teams finish the season instead of (roughly) inverse as it is now. So the Canucks would have added Yakupov, Nuge, Seguin or whatever and the Oilers would have added whichever piece of shit the Canucks drafted recently. A reverse Robin Hood if you will.

    What I’ve always proposed is to take the current model where the salary has a value (in this case 4 x #15 overall picks) and generate a sliding scale of points attached to that. For simplicity sakes, maybe the value is 100 points and a draft pick at slot #15 is worth 25. If you draft there every year you are paid back after four year. Slot #29 might only be worth 4 points. Slot #1 might be worth 75 or even 100. The point is that all teams would pay the same “aquisition cost” to sign a player instead of this shit system where the players that could really use him CANNOT make this move without putting their team into the dark ages.

  20. godot10 says:

    Weber wa

    franksterra:
    mumbai max,

    You coud argue that he’d fetch far more value than 4 1st round picks though, esp. as Philly’s picks are unlikely to be above 20th or so for some time.

    in a trade (a signed) Weber could fetch 1 or 2 firsts, a very good established still-young forward, a decent d-man and/or an extremely promising D-prospect, and very likely another valuable lower-level roster player or high upside prospect,

    E.g., I’d say our 1st rounder, Gagner, N.Schultz, Klefbom and Jones have more value than four 20-30th place picks.

    I doubt Weber was interested in signing on to a rebuild after Nashville, regardless of how promising. He wasn’t coming to Edmonton. A year from Edmonton might have been able to make a case, but it would have been a hard sell now when Philly is whispering in your ear.

  21. Ducey says:

    knighttown,

    Good post.

    And why I think that Nashville will likely just match the offer. They might have to take a big gulp if there is that big bonus at the front, but getting a bunch of 27th overall picks is not going to be very helpful.

    I presume the offer has a NMC so that NASH couldn’t just flip him to some other team without Weber’s consent.

    You want to be a hockey owner? You are just minding your own business barely making a few million a year and all of a sudden you have to scrape up $25 million for a bonus. Its a tough spot.

    If they don’t match, it looks like PHI will be over the Cap a by a couple of million (I assume that bonus doesn’t count). They must know that Pronger is going to retire (although Holmgren said in June he wasn’t). If he isn’t, they are going to have to move someone useful or hope that Pronger doesn’t come back until later in the season so they can pro-rate his salary. They are going to be in tough in 3 years when they have B. Schenn, Couturier and Giroux all needing new contracts.

    I guess they figure they will have a few Cups by then and won’t care. I figure they will be undone by their goaltending – again.

  22. godot10 says:

    Philly is hoping Pronger DOESN’T retire. If Pronger retires, they CANNOT use LTIR for his contract.

    They want him to show up every September, fail his medical, and have them or whoever insured the contract pay Pronger for the season for the next 5 years, all so they can put him on LTIR.

    Otherwise, they have to endure the cap hit every year.

  23. godot10 says:

    That or the Flyers are hoping for a amnesty buyout period in the new CBA.

  24. franksterra says:

    godot10,

    Just to clarify Godot I never advocated Weber coming here or believed he ever would. I was just pointing out that Weber would have more value on the trade market than four 1st rounders from a perennial playoff team.

  25. rich says:

    Part of the move here by Philly was to also do something pre-emptive and keep Weber from going to the NYR and having to play him 6x a year. Supposedly, they were talking about a trade before the offer sheet (heard on the radio driving in this morning here in Nashville).

    While likely a big cap hit up front, Nashville has the money (is way under the cap) if they want to match the offer sheet. They also added another partner to the ownership group early this spring, so they should (if needed) be able to match financially as they’ll have the resources.

    If they let him walk, they’re really in a re-build mode. They have some decent defense prospects, but they’re all 3-7, no #1 or #2. The 4 Philly picks though are likely to be in the 20′s and don’t offer as much immediate value to Nashville. But don’t underestimate the Preds scouts ability to find gems in the draft…especially on the back end.

    In the end, this offer sheet did Nashville a favor because now the saga doesn’t linger from now until the trade deadline for that team. In the end, unless Weber comes right out and tells them, I think Nashville matches.

  26. gcw_rocks says:

    Godot10. Usually, you can’t buy out injured players. And if I were Nashville, I would be pushing Betman to keep it that way, even with an amnesty.

  27. gcw_rocks says:

    Looks like Voracek is still unsigned. If he was looking for a raise, things just got a lot tougher.

  28. jp says:

    SpotTheLoon:

    Also, why would the Oilers be involved in this?I see some of the above posters are annoyed that Tamby wasn’t in the mix.Wouldn’t signing Weber to a big ticket cap hit like this simply push the Oilers into cap management hell sooner?As a hockey signing, I get it.But the cap system is the trump card in most signings these days.

    If the 26M bonus is true, the cap hit going forward would be in the ball park of one of the kids re-uping. Would you trade Eberle for Weber straight up if they were both signed and making similar money? I would.

    There would be compensation picks going one way, but these could be recovered to some extent if/when we needed to move a kid. And Re: quality of the compensatory picks, I’d be pretty confident Weber = playoffs, so not such a huge issue.

    Apparently the Oil weren’t involved in this (bad dreams about pancakes?), but I can see appeal. All this aside, I’d be pretty shocked if Nash lets him walk…

  29. gcw_rocks says:

    And you would have to think Bettman is crapping bricks right now, with CBA talks going on and the Flyers pulling a stunt like this. I hope the cap does come down to 50% of revenues (should work out to about a $61M cap). That would definitely shake some players loose from Philly

  30. gcw_rocks says:

    jp,

    Bonus counts against the cap hit. If its $100M over 14 years, the cap hit is $7M+

  31. SpotTheLoon says:

    jp,

    I would think that Nashville matches. Wonder if Weber is thrilled about going back to the team though. Time will tell, I suppose.

  32. jp says:

    gcw_rocks:
    jp,

    Bonus counts against the cap hit.If its $100M over 14 years, the cap hit is $7M+

    Oops, my bad. That is more than a little rich for the Oilers situation then…

  33. godot10 says:

    gcw_rocks:
    Godot10.Usually, you can’t buy out injured players.And if I were Nashville, I would be pushing Betman to keep it that way, even with an amnesty.

    I said if the new CBA has an amnesty of some sort. The Flyers could then buy him out at the full value of his contract, and not the standard 2/3rds buyout. They or their insurance company is stuck paying Pronger, but an amnesty would allow them to escape the salary cap impact.

    Philly pays their NHL bills. Nashville gets NHL handouts. I think Philly will get an amnesty clause in the new CBA, especially since the NHLPA benefits from an amnesty clause. Having Philly cap constrained takes a deep pocketed bidder out of the makret.

  34. bookje says:

    I look forward to him hitting a rut and ‘whitneying’ his ankle.

  35. russ99 says:

    Shady business by Philly – sets a really bad precedent. Especially the part of getting back at Nashville because they wouldn’t budge in trade talks.

    What if one of these rich east coast teams pulls the same stunt when Hall, Eberle, RNH or Yakupov are RFAs?

    It would truly suck being on the cusp of contention then having to either let one go for more “rebuilding” or destroy our cap room to keep one player from being poached. Then of course the remaining big 4 all would want the same salaries.

    The Oilers have to lock down at least 2 of them in the next year to prevent such shenanigans.

    Also ironic that the CBA talks shift to the NHL bargaining to save themselves from such tactics.

  36. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    russ99:
    Shady business by Philly – sets a really bad precedent. Especially the part of getting back at Nashville because they wouldn’t budge in trade talks.

    What if one of these rich east coast teams pulls the same stunt when Hall, Eberle, RNH or Yakupov are RFAs?

    It would truly suck being on the cusp of contention then having to either let one go for more “rebuilding” or destroy our cap room to keep one player from being poached. Then of course the remainingbig 4 all would want the same salaries.

    The Oilers have to lock down at least 2 of them in the next year to prevent such shenanigans.

    Also ironic that the CBA talks shift to the NHL bargaining to save themselves from such tactics.

    the real answer to these problems is creating an environment where players want to stay and win. there are a number of factors to that, too many to mention and a lot of them are out of the team’s hands (Edmonton can’t change the fact that it is Edmonton for example)

    but all these issues that flow out of the CBA (offer sheets, the Schultz loophole, etc) don’t change the fact that if a player doesn’t want to be where they are there isn’t much the team can do about it… these issues are just symptoms of the fact that a player wants out… even if loopholes get closed, in that situation (a player wanting out) the best a team can hope for is

    1) to convince the player (Weber say) to stay (very hard)
    2) to try and keep it out of the media and make a deal before the spotlight of “you’re mismanaging your team to doom” arrives
    3) hope the player is stalwart enough to bide his time gentlemanly (Nash is a good example here so far)

    Those are your best case scenarios it seems. After all, these are autonomous parties coming to some hopefully mutually beneficial agreement. The onus remains on the team to attract players and maintain them beyond the bare commitments of the contracts already signed and players have all kinds of ways to force the hand of the team via nuclear options.

  37. nathan says:

    Compensation in this case is actually based on the average salary of the first 5 years. If the first 5 years exceeds $39.7 the compensation would be 4 1st rounders. If they put most of the value in the middle years they might have screwed Preds out of 2 first rounders (2nd and 3rd instead).

    You had to know the contract would go long as whatever Weber signed he knew the Preds might take.

    wikipedia: “averaged annual salary is determined by dividing the total compensation by the LESSER of the number of years of the Offer Sheet or five.”

  38. nathan says:

    russ99,

    The 5 year contract limit would really help the Oil. It only takes one GM ready to do one of these crapshoot cap evading deals.

  39. russ99 says:

    nathan,

    Perfectly understandable, but the player initiates this process by signing the offer sheet, and essentially gets a UFA contract during RFA.

    Would a player like Hall pass on an offer sheet, if he’s not liking the usual Oiler “hometown discount” RFA offer and the progress of the franchise? Hopefully it doesn’t get to this, but you never know…

    I hope they do close these loopholes in the new CBA, just that we don’t have to miss the hockey season to do so.

  40. nathan says:

    russ99,

    I’d miss a hockey season to have a chance to sign the core. If the players can only get 5 years and the cap figures are real it’s a level playing field between rational and nothing left to lose GMs. Doubt the 5 year limit will be the sticking point if we lose a season.

  41. prairieschooner says:

    Nashville are probably unhappy but not disappointed right now.
    They can match the offer and lock Weber up for a year and trade him later with cash coming back because they will have to pay the upfront money 2x because it is after July 1st

  42. nathan says:

    If the Flyers middle loaded the deal to keep 2 of the 4 first round picks the Preds have to match.

  43. Rondo says:

    If Nashville does not match , they probably could get something worthwhile for the 4 first round picks

  44. nathan says:

    Apparently it’s 60 M in bonuses the first 5 years and 8 M in salary. So Weber is pretty immune to salary rollbacks. And Philly is hitting Nashville’s case flow hard in an attempt to avoid matching. Think they’ll match anyways. See Stevens, Scott. Poile won’t want to relive that one. Up to the owner.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/blog/eye-on-hockey/19614302/with-big-offer-sheet-decision-to-make-predators-gm-david-poile-been-here-before

  45. Rondo says:

    If it is 4 first round picks still a pretty good deal for Philly. That would be 4 upper 20′s picks for one of the best D man in the league. I guess it all falls apart if he gets seriously injured, which is now part of the NHL.

    They lost Carle , Pronger is probably retiring. They need a top Dman.

  46. Gret99zky says:

    You gotta tip your hat to Holmgren. He seems to be in on every big deal out there and doesn’t waste too much time “evaluating” what will make his team better, he just does it.

  47. Gret99zky says:

    Watch the Preds match and Weber ask for a trade next season because of bad blood.

  48. nathan says:

    Preds reiterate their prev statement about matching but will study all details first.

    Eklund making sense this morning referring to the “Gratton” option.

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=19970821&id=5vAvAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w_wDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5727,91946

    Preds have just put Philly on the clock to sweeten those 4 late 1st round picks.

  49. Wolfie says:

    Can the Preds still trade Weber prior to the 7 day deadline?

  50. gcw_rocks says:

    godot10,

    From what I could see of the previous “amnesty” or “compliance buy out” specified in the old CBA, you could not buy out injured players in an amnesty period either.

    The NHLPA is okay with buyouts of healthy players because in most cases they end up making more money between the buy out and any new contract they sign. This is much less likely with injured players so I doubt they would allow a player like Pronger to be bought out in a new CBA.

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