BEYOND THE HEART OF THE ORDER 2.0

The Oilers blueline these days consists of interesting young players, two solid veterans, a quality 2-way man with legit injury issues and ten miles of kids.

How many of the current Oilers could we answer ‘yes’ to when applying their name to the following question:

  • Could the Oilers win a Stanley with (player name) as their (position on the roster)?

It isn’t many, not so far. Whitney, Smid, Schultz the elder all contribute when healthy and Sutton was effective in a 5-6 role and should be again this season. Jeff Petry was a revelation, Justin Schultz should be quality and of course there’s the Klef-hangers and their stories bubbling under.

The 80-81 Oilers

  • LD: Kevin Lowe, Paul Coffey, Pat Price, Doug Hicks
  • RD: Risto Siltanen, Lee Fogolin

I can remember each of those players very well: Lowe the dogged defender, Coffey the sublime skater, Hicks tough as nails, Siltanen with the slap shot that could end up anywhere (think super ball with a puck–man he shot it hard) and heart and soul Fogolin–you still can’t find an old timey Oiler fan who will say 5 bad words about him. Lee Fogolin was a man on the blueline. Pat Price always had his shoulder slumped, like he was crumbling under the weight of the Pattison contract.

PP GF (on ice)

  1. Siltanen 60
  2. Price 22
  3. Coffey 21
  4. Hicks 16
  5. Lowe 15
  6. Fogolin 2

Siltanen’s slap shot used to make a sound as they hit the boards behind the net. Seriously. A very unique sound, that’s how hard he shot. Price was traded at the deadline, Coffey was brand new, and then Hicks begins the stay at homes.

PK GA (on ice)

  1. Fogolin 43
  2. Siltanen 29
  3. Hicks 27
  4. Lowe 24
  5. Price 24
  6. Coffey 6

As we might have guessed, Fogolin was the top defender on the PK. Siltanen played heavy minutes, he was very mobile and could skate. He didn’t have size but he could play. Hicks, Lowe and Price would all have been obvious PK choices–big, strong, and both Hicks and Price were veterans by this time.

It’s very difficult to match these fellows to current Oilers. Siltanen was an undersized Finn with some crazy skills–a very unique player–reflected by the impressive return Sather got for him. He probably led this team in TOI, but I honestly can’t compare him to a current Oiler. He was not a ‘complete’ defender, and his defense was the issue, but Siltanen was well thought of in 80-81 as an NHL defenseman.

Fogolin was a veteran stay at home, Nick Schultz would be the comparable there.

Doug Hicks was 25 or so by this time, but he sort of stalled as a player; still delivered the toughness but he was not as effective defensively as Fogolin or even Lowe by this time. He was moving down the depth chart. No current Oiler has the same resume, but all of the tough guys–Peckham as an example–would be similar in style (Hicks had some pretty good offensive seasons, though).

Lowe was Lowe pretty early, he was probably below average as a rookie defenseman but after that was a rock. By this time I think you could say he was taking playing time away from Hicks and Price. Kevin Lowe’s post playing career may cloud the issue for some, but he was an excellent NHL player over a long period of time. Smid would be the current comparable from my pov.

Price was never close to what was expected of him, and he was dealt at the deadline. There always seemed to be something about him–both on the Island and here–that kept him outside. Can’t put my finger on it, but he was never going to be a part of the Oilers when they were great and I think most fans would have agreed even before the trade.

Coffey? Well, he wasn’t really of this earth even as a rookie. He made dreadful, galling, spectacular errors but he also recovered in a heartbeat and could skate the puck out of a storm like it was a Sunday drive. Paul Coffey had his detractors–Scotty Bowman was one–but holy hell was he an effective hockey player in his prime. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen another Paul Coffey, let alone finding one on this roster.

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46 Responses to "BEYOND THE HEART OF THE ORDER 2.0"

  1. PhrankLee says:

    Since I was so wrong on the internet yesterday that blood vessels were popped in foreheads across the Oilogosphere I will agree with the Smid/Lowe comparison. KL was my kind of defender and blocked shots with true effectiveness. Maybe the meanest Oiler of all time. I cannot credit Smid with that sublime nastiness but the guy may find it. Risto…. one of a kind. I remember tensing up a bit watching him wind up for a shot out of concern for everyone unfortunate enough to be in front of him. Could not hit a bulls ass with a scoop shovel but he hammered it! I will always hold up defenders on this team to compare them to Lee Fogolin. In my mind he was what a defenceman should be. Should be still. But the game changes and Coffey was a huge part of ushering in this new style of defending and offensive prowess. He was and still is the anomalous mad genius that everyone hopes they have uncovered. In some ways I think it has hurt the game by denying true defensive experts a better shot at making a squad. I am excited about Klefbom. I think he may have something to really offer this team.

  2. Woodguy says:

    I think the Smid=Lowe is apt.

    Opponents seem to not like playing against Smid and the same can certainly be said for Vish and his stick work.

    I had a table hockey game as a kid (we all did, didn’t we?), and I broke one of Dmen.

    I rigged up a pencil stub with some tape to the spindle and it worked well.

    Turned out that pencil shot the puck way harder than the plastic guys, so we named him Stiltanen.

    Not many players broke the heavy old plexiglass in the old days with a shot using a wooden stick.

    Risto did though.

    Nuke Laloosh style control just added to the excitement when he wound up.

  3. Chris Hext---formerly EasyOil--- says:

    It is interesting looking at the OIlers’ blueline that year. Only three (Lowe, Coffey, Fogolin) were around for the good times, compared to all of the (future) superstar forwards being in place that year, well before the cups starting coming. Huddy and Gregg wouldn’t make the team full time until 82-83. I know Lowe and Coffey were the future cornerstones, but I reckon without Huddy and Gregg (or comparable players) the Oilers wouldn’t have been quite so good.

    This gives me hope. I know lots of people have said the Oilers rebuild is being done backwards, as it is believed that because by the time our young d-men mature into capable NHLers (IF they do) our forwards will be onto their second and third contracts and the team will be past it’s window. But I’m not sold on that. I know it was a different era and there was no salary cap to consider, but those 80s Oilers had their impact forwards well before their impact d-men became impact d-men. Worked out ok for them. Although I am aware that just because it worked out then, doesn’t mean it’ll work now.

    Point is, there is still time for some of the young’uns (Schultz Jr., Klefbom, Marincin) to really develop to compliment the Smid’s and Petry’s of the team. And of course management needs to find impact veterans to help out. Every team needs impact veterans to help out.

  4. Woodguy says:

    As far as the D goes, the group you mentioned transitioned into a group of:

    Coffey
    Huddy
    Lowe
    Gregg
    Fogolin
    Jackson

    That group was the top 6gp Dmen in 82-83

    I think Petry and Shultz are in the Gregg/Huddy mold of having many tools in the tool bag, including the first pass and defensive ability.

    I think Shultz trumps them all if he continues on the trajectory he has shown in college, but you can’t put him in Coffey’s strata, that’s reserved for Orr, Bourque and maybe that’s it.

    Klef seem multi-tool but with more a defensive slant.

    People bitch that the Oilers have not “True #1″ Dman coming up, but having 4 of your 6 starters able to play in all situations and move the puck in 2-3 years will be a pretty special group.

  5. oilersfan says:

    I see J Schultz as Coffey

    N Schultz as Huddy

    Smid as Lowe

    There is no Fogolin or Gregg here, although tentacles Marincin might become Gregg like and Teubert Fogolin like.

    Not sure what they will do with Whitney. Hmmm maybe Sutton has a bit of Gregg in him.

  6. bookje says:

    Stop talking about our defence. Have you seen our FORWARDS, they are awesome!

  7. Woodguy says:

    oilersfan,

    I don’t think N. Shultz has Huddy’s skating or passing ability.

    Not from what we saw last year,

    Huddy’s tool kit was a bit more full than Nick’s.

  8. Halfwise says:

    MAB always reminded me of Risto. Short, stocky, quick, and a threat at both ends of the ice. I can remember yelling Rrrriiiiiissssto just because it was fun, and he was a lot of fun to watch what with all the chaos and upside and loose cannon stuff.

  9. bendelson says:

    LT – you have sparked one of my earliest Oiler memories – the Pat Price trade.

    As a youngster new to Edmonton, I can recall the radio interview with Pat moments after hearing the news of his trade… Why does this seemingly innocuous moment in Oiler history stand out so vividly in my mind you may wonder?

    Although at the time I was still proudly wearing my Lafleur jersey, the interview was the moment I realized that the group of young Oilers were something special. Why? B/c of the absolute devastation in Pats voice throughout the interview. It wasn’t your typical ‘its tough but also very exciting’ type fodder. He was a broken man – as memory serves, he did not like the trade, did not understand the trade, and sounded like he knew his chance had just passed him by… Given what happened around here in the years following, it’s not hard to figure out why.

    I’ll never forget that interview.
    Thanks LT.

  10. VOR says:

    I think Oilers fans should be paying more attention to 1981,1982, 1983 than we are. That is really when the Boys on the Bus years were crafted. Some of it, as I’ve said before was luck, but not all of it.

    As 1980-1981 begins the Oilers look like a patchwork quilt on defence. An ugly one. I can remember all the chatter on phone in shows about how the Oilers had to get bigger and meaner and better on D if they were ever going to win anything. They were working on it that off season but none of us fans had any clue how close the future was.

    It begins not with brilliant trades or free agent signings but with an off ice move. In 1981 the Oilers replaced Ace Bailey as the coach of the Wichita Wind with a former AHL coach of the year. At the time (no Internet) I am not sure fans even knew the Oilers had made the move. The new guy was a career AHL coach named John Muckler.

    Next up Sather caught a break and the recession hit. Don Jackson, a better real estate agent than hockey player, accepted a trade to Edmonton from the Minnesota North Stars. When first confronted with the idea he had said he was going to retire and sell real estate. He got assigned to the Wind.

    He was joined by a free agent the Oilers had signed who had spent most of the previous season with the Houston Apollos. Charlie Huddy had looked pretty good in a brief stint with the Oilers the previous year. However, he was very much still a work in progress.

    Muckler was the guy who turned Huddy and Jackson into NHL defencemen. They both spent part of 1981-1982 with the Oilers. Huddy looked sure to stick, Jackson not so much.

    Desperately shallow on defence Sather talked Randy Gregg, fresh home from playing pro in Japan to suit up and play in the Stanley Cup Playoffs, even though he was determined to return to school that next fall. So by the end of the 1981-1982 season they are all in place, the d that would win a cup.

    The thing is, if we didn’t have history to tell us what happened next we’d have said – “God what a horrible defence, some good things but not deep enough or good enough to win anything.” So for anybody who thinks we are years away from a good d-corps consider just how quickly it can all change. An obscure coach is hired, a no name free agent is signed, a meh trade is made, and an untested player is talked into delaying his medical career. Doesn’t sound like signing Ryan Sutter and trading for Shea Weber does it?

  11. Lois Lowe says:

    I think Kelfbom is going to be the Huddy comp. I don’t remember the latter really bringing much offense to the table, but he was solid positionally, could skate and make a pass.

  12. Dave Casselman says:

    bendelson,

    Great post. Love memory lane stories from the old days.

    Ya gotta feel bad for Pat Price, wherever he may be these days. I recall him being VERY highly regarded coming out of junior. Whatever the reason for not living up to his billing, it’s too bad. He seemed, at least in his interviews, to be a good kid. Wouda coulda shoulda is a bitch.

  13. justDOit says:

    Halfwise,

    That’s a pretty good comparison, although my recollection of Ritsu is kind of fuzzy after 30 some years. I remember MAB, early on with the Oilers, standing up big Bertuzzi who was rushing down his right wing. Just inside the Oiler blue, Bergeron hits him with all hes got – MAB nearly bent right over backwards, but stayed on his skates while Bertuzzi found himself at a sudden stop. Gritty little player.

  14. Moosemess says:

    One question that’s interesting to consider as we watch this team start to try and climb the mountain again is ‘how much value is derived from having done it before?’

    Particularly during the 2006 run, I got the sense that team benefited hugely from the calm and conviction of folks like MacT and Lowe who innately knew the proper way to prepare for those must win games as well as the best way to let off steam and forget those crucial losses that can be oh so damaging to the collective psyche and team momentum.

    You said it well LT. It’s unfortunate that Lowe’s time in the management chair has likely coloured the perceptions of the average Oiler fan and it’s too easy to forget what a colossal gamer he was on the ice. We can say a lot about Lowe, but you can’t question his competitiveness or passion. The guy simply lives and dies to win hockey games and he bleeds Oiler blue. It can be argued that ultra competitiveness in the management chair doesn’t impact the on ice performance (and recent results would certainly support that conclusion), but once the team becomes a contender again, I think having leadership at the top that HAS to win as opposed to would LIKE to win is a key ingredient in a Cup winner. Because of this elite competitive drive, they will simply demand more of the players and in turn, how can someone like Smid or Peckham not get fired up by a guy who played for the Cup with two broken ribs and a broken wrist? By way of contrast, do you think Henrik or Daniel get lit up by Mike Gillis to charge bravely once more into the breach?

    Along these lines, Tambi has said that one of the things he focuses on is the character and leadership qualities of the players they draft. Given those Oiler teams of yore had easily 5 or 6 players that could’ve been captains on other teams in the league, I think that is a smart approach to follow. Beyond their obvious skill and playmaking, one thing I most like about our young phenoms is that, just like those dynasty teams of yore, they’re ‘rink rats’ with all the great attributes that term implies.

    That said, is there a danger that the boys on the bus can draw too much on past experience as gospel when building out this roster? What these Beyond the Heart of the Order posts seem to point out is how reliant Slats was on filling out the roster with homegrown talent. Is that an optimal approach to follow in a salary cap era? Given how deficient the club has been with its pro scouting in recent years, I think it’s likely the approach they should follow regardless, but there may come a time sooner rather than later when they’ll have to make a key FA signing that could have significant impact on their core salary structure. Goaltending is the most obvious candidate here IMHO.

    Another nice factor to ponder is that winning solves a lot of problems. Slats was great at bringing in talent like Kenta and Reijo that were hungry to win the Cup and kept motivation alive in the dressing room during the run. If nothing else, the Justin Schultz signing demonstrates the inherent wisdom of burning it down and rebuilding with blue chippers. In the salary cap era we live in, it is quite conceivable we may have to prematurely bid adieu to players like Ebs or Yak or Smid at some point. But much like the Pens keep slotting in new wingers around Crosby and Malkin, it’s possible that the Oil will always find willing trading partners and prospective FA signings as long as the team continues to contend. Is our current management team capable of turning a Gologoski into Neal, secure in the knowledge that Letang is rising fast? When those occasions arise, that will be a critical acid test.

    Apologies for the rambling post, but it is nice to be able to start considering all of the positive possibilities for a change!

  15. Mr DeBakey says:

    A couple of thoughts about the last two days worth of Posts & Comments.

    I gotta disagree with Spoiler about Brett Callighen.
    If the Oilers hadn’t lost Callighen to eye injury, he would’ve been an excellent winger for Gretzky/Kurri; decent speed, decent skills, feisty [but not big].
    Instead of Callighen, the Oilers used Semenko and Pouzar as Gretzky’s LW for the next couple of seasons. Both useful players, but not as good as Callighen.
    Eventually, Tikkanen, a better version of Callighen, took that role.

    I think the hope is that Pitlick becomes a bigger Callighen.

    Some of it, as I’ve said before was luck, but not all of it.

    When two undrafted Defencemen, Huddy & Gregg, become key players on a Stanley Cup team, we’re talking about plenty of luck.

    Its all been said before , but
    • Messier 48th
    • Anderson & Kurri both 69th
    • Moog 132nd
    • Steve Smith 111th
    • Tikkanen 80th

    Luck! A truck full of luck.

  16. Dalton says:

    What’s up with the Oil Kings intra-squad fistfighting?

    From the Oilers official site:

    But once a goal had been tallied, other scores needed to be settled. Teammates or not, the gloves came off. First up, 5’11″, 179-pound Stephane Legault engaged the much larger White defenceman, Cody Corbett. The pair danced for nearly a minute, but the bout was declared a draw.

    Just three seconds into the second period when the score remained the same, Oilers prospect Mitch Moroz (Red) took on Klarc Wilson in another energetic tilt.

    Moroz wanted more late in the game when a lippy Henrik Samuelsson started to run his mouth near the benches. The Oilers’ second round pick in 2012 had enough, dropped his gloves and did his best to calm the situation. Samuelsson, chosen 27th overall by the Phoenix Coyotes, wasn’t interested.

    Isn’t that strange behaviour? I don’t think I’ve seen this before but I don’t watch much juniour besides the big games.

  17. Woodguy says:

    Lois Lowe:
    I think Kelfbom is going to be the Huddy comp. I don’t remember the latter really bringing much offense to the table, but he was solid positionally, could skate and make a pass.

    Huddy brought a reasonable amount of offense, although nothing spectacular.

    1982-83 76gp 20g 37a 57pts +62 (led the NHL in +/-)
    1983-84 75gp 8g 34a 42pts +50
    1984-85 80gp 7g 44a 51pts +50
    1985-86 76gp 6g 35a 41pts +30
    1986-87 58gp 4g 15a 19pts +27
    1987-88 77gp 13g 28a 41pts +23
    1988-89 76gp 11g 33a 44pts +0
    1989-90 70gp 1g 23a 24pts -13
    1990-91 53gp 5g 22a 27pts +4

  18. Woodguy says:

    Dalton:
    What’s up with the Oil Kings intra-squad fistfighting?

    From the Oilers official site:

    Isn’t that strange behaviour?I don’t think I’ve seen this before but I don’t watch much juniour besides the big games.

    There’s always lots of fights at any training camp.

    Thugs want to impress and its the only way they can.

    NHL camps are the same.

  19. bendelson says:

    Fun facts about Jill Hennessy:

    Born in Edmonton.
    Appeared in her first film (a heart warming little film called Dead Ringers) with her twin sister – they played prostitutes – Mimzy and Coral.

    Curious? Check it out on the utube…

    Humina humina!

  20. bookje says:

    Woodguy: Huddy brought a reasonable amount of offense, although nothing spectacular.

    1982-8376gp20g37a57pts+62 (led the NHL in +/-)
    1983-8475gp8g34a42pts+50
    1984-8580gp7g44a51pts+50
    1985-8676gp6g35a41pts+30
    1986-8758gp4g15a19pts+27
    1987-8877gp13g28a41pts+23
    1988-8976gp11g33a44pts+0
    1989-9070gp1g23a24pts-13
    1990-9153gp5g22a27pts+4

    To be fair, in the 1980′s on the Oilers, pretty much everyone got 30 or 40 points just for showing up. In 1984 Grant Fuhr had 14 points in 45 games. Some guy named Risto Jalo had 3 points in 3 games and never played in the NHL again (Note – Sather wrecked Risto Jalo who was a known VHS tape star with his crazy penalty shot antics).

  21. Dalton says:

    Lois Lowe:
    I think Kelfbom is going to be the Huddy comp. I don’t remember the latter really bringing much offense to the table, but he was solid positionally, could skate and make a pass.

    Klefbom is an offenside defenseman… Just with really, really low season stats at the moment.

  22. VOR says:

    Hey don’t be knocking Risto Jalo. He is actually, I swear I am not making this up, one of the greatest Finnish players of all time. He just didn’t like the NHL. He scored well over a point a game in the elite league in Finland. He also had a wicked performance at the Olympics. In other words 3 points in 3 games is what you would expect from a stunningly talented player.

  23. Dalton says:

    Woodguy: There’s always lots of fights at any training camp.

    Thugs want to impress and its the only way they can.

    NHL camps are the same.

    Do any examples come to mind? I can’t recall any fights before the preseason on the Oilers at all, and I’m a pretty strict observer of the team.

  24. Woodguy says:

    Dalton: Do any examples come to mind?I can’t recall any fights before the preseason on the Oilers at all, and I’m a pretty strict observer of the team.

    Every AHL lunkhead who gets to camp?

    Seriously, there are lots every year.

    Usually between each other.

  25. regwald says:

    Woodguy,

    WG, the only difference we see here is the combatants are vets against vets. So, you wonder if it was a little score to settle or was it just to fun or did someone think that the rub out in the scrimmage was rougher than necessary.

  26. bookje says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYGKnnIucoM

    Hans Benson vs Sean McMorrow

    One is in the ECHL now and the Other is in jail for trying to smuggle drugs across the border.

    There are lots of training camp fights each year, they just tend to involve people you have never heard of and that you will never hear of.

  27. jimmers says:

    Dalton: Do any examples come to mind?I can’t recall any fights before the preseason on the Oilers at all, and I’m a pretty strict observer of the team.

    Mostly it is between guys you have never heard of before or will again. Matt Green had a pretty notorious fight with Geoff Paukovich in 2007 (or so). One imagines that Eager wanted to have a word with Tulupov last year…

  28. Woodguy says:

    regwald:
    Woodguy,

    WG, the only difference we see here is the combatants are vets against vets. So, you wonder if it was a little score to settle or was it just to fun or did someone think that the rub out in the scrimmage was rougher than necessary.

    Ahhh, missed that part.

    I should pay attention.

  29. sliderule says:

    Eberle sign for 6 and 36 million

  30. Wolfie says:

    sliderule beat me to it!

  31. OilLeak says:

    Damn that one came out of no where.

  32. striatic says:

    hallz+ebz=sidebysideinbigboybeds4eva!

    .. or for six years, at least.

  33. sliderule says:

    Looking at the 80 defence you realize how weak it was.
    Price the number one pick in 75 and Hicks a number 6 pick were given up by the teams that drafted them.They were considered busts and played that way with the oil.
    Fogolin was a great team guy but skated like Barker and would be really exposed in today’s speed game.
    Looking back at what we had gives me a whole lot of hope for our group of D and prospect D

  34. Mr DeBakey says:

    Looking at the 80 defence you realize how weak it was.

    Yeah. it was two kids – Lowe & Coffey
    3 guys left unprotectred by their teams in the WHA “expansion” draft – Fogolin, Price & Hickes
    And Risto.

    The Oilers also had Colin Campbell for a season courtesy of that expansion draft..

  35. Lois Lowe says:

    It is a strange feeling to be fairly satisfied with the Oiler front office this summer.

  36. Doug McLachlan says:

    LT, thanks for the picture at the top of the artlcle.

    I often explain to people that Jill Hennesy is the reason I went to law school. Rather rudderless after my undergrad a good buddy of mine had his life take a real 180 and while he was recouping in the hospital the two of us watched a LOT of Law & Order re-runs. Seeing how things can take a turn very, very quickly I finally buckled down to do something with my life and with the promise that Ms. Hennesy awaited me my choice seemed pretty clear. Good job (as evidenced by my Lowtiding at work), fantastic wife (beautiful, brilliant lawyer who will tolerate my hockey-obsession with good humour) and two amazing kids are proof that I have little to complain of outside of an impending hockey lock-out.

    So thanks Jill Hennesy and your Law & Order colleagues. If only we could resolve the CBA in one nice, compact 60 minute episode…

  37. Moosemess says:

    We should probably thank our lucky stars that Hall and Ebs are side by side in big boy beds. Otherwise one might speculate that Hallsy could get rankled at the fact that a 22nd overall pick just signed for the same salary as he (a vaunted 1st overall).

    Interesting to note that the Eberle camp didn’t want to part with that additional UFA year so easily.

    All that aside, I’m really happy with this contract. I have my concerns about Hall’s term primarily over injury concerns, but Eberle definitely strikes me as Jari Kurri redux (i.e. a player that will be consistently healthy and uber productive for a very long time).

    Tyler Dellow will no doubt go to town on this being a drastic overpay, but regression be damned, Eberle is the real deal.

    We’ve locked up Starsky and Clutch!

  38. bookje says:

    I would have preferred 12 years at 1.5 million per year, but this is pretty good.

  39. Bar_Qu says:

    bookje:
    I would have preferred 12 years at 1.5 million per year, but this is pretty good.

    Eberle is poison in the room. Look at the overpay!

  40. Moosemess says:

    bookje:
    I would have preferred 12 years at 1.5 million per year, but this is pretty good.

    I wish you were an agent. More specifically, I wish you were the agent of every player on the team.

  41. DeadmanWaking says:

    Hall wouldn’t have given up that extra UFA year, either, if he weren’t fresh off the table. It might also be that Oiler management wanted to stagger the end of contract negotiations by a year. Having two guys like that threatening to bolt in the same year can unravel the entire rag doll. Trending downward in 29 GM offices: UFA cartels.

  42. cc says:

    Jordan Eberle – six-year, $36 million contract extension. Good for the Oilers and Ebs.

  43. cc says:

    BAR_QU… Grow-up

  44. Lowetide says:

    I think he was joking.

  45. leadfarmer says:

    Pffft, should of argued it down to league minimum until age 36.

    bookje,

  46. leadfarmer says:

    Bbbut, but he wanted 7, at least.

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