OILERS TRADE RIEDER FOR KALE KESSY

The Edmonton Oilers have traded unsigned F prospect Tobias Rieder to Phoenix for rugged forward Kale Kessy. He is a player we looked at briefly before the 2011 entry draft, and Kirk Luedeke did a nice piece on him (found a scout who called Kessy a “poor man’s Milan Lucic”).

My feeling is this: Rieder is the better prospect, but the Oilers:

  • felt they didn’t need another 5.11 forward in their system
  • felt Rieder’s offense this year was more reflective of his actual ability than last year’s eye popping totals.

In Kessy, they got a big, tough and filthy forward. At 20, Kessy has played 60 WHL games (21-22-43) with 106 pims, and has caught fire in the post-season with 4 goals in 4 games for Kamloops. He is 6.03, 202 and served a 12-game suspension (he has had 7) early in the 2012-13 season for a vicious elbow that landed flush on the head of Lethbridge defenceman Ryan Pilon.

I would put him offensively on the better side of Travis Ewanyk and the poor side of Mitchell Moroz, and I don’t think the Oilers have a player in their system with the kind of edgy rep that Kessy possesses.

In trading for him earlier this season, Vancouver Giants GM Giants Scott Bonner said “Kessy is a guy, I think, when he plays the game, he’s a very effective player. He is just going to have to play hockey, be a big, strong guy who goes to the net and takes the body but does it clean.  I’m assuming he’s going to bring some courage to our guys and allow them to play the way we need to have some success. We have a younger group and, at times, a timid group and I think people like Kessy make those types of players feel comfortable.”

Neither player has a signed pro contract at this time.

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157 Responses to "OILERS TRADE RIEDER FOR KALE KESSY"

  1. Lucinius says:

    I do not understand this trade. Rieder was doing well, as Woodguy illustrated in the last thread. Had more points in fewer games. Just because Kessy is bigger? haven’t these people learned by now that bigger is only better if the skill level is equal? Skill trumps everything.

  2. Minister D- says:

    “Physical and hardworking.” Jeebus Gawd, there’s the rationale right there.

  3. Kris11 says:

    Tambellini just broke Ricki’s heart forever.

  4. Lucinius says:

    I’m trying to find some silver lining in this…

    Maybe it fulfills our bonehead trade of the year requirement?

  5. Kris11 says:

    Someone send Tambellini a note saying the following. 1. A tough player can only he use his toughness if he can take a regular shift. So aquiring crappy junior players who are incredibly likely to never play in the NHL is always unwise, even if they are tough. 2. Tough players for the bottom of the roster are available for cheap at every UFA deadline or on waivers. 3. Thevalue of toughmess for winning is highly dubious, so you need to add more than toughness around the young talent to win games, especially a top pairing legt-handed Dman.

  6. Thinker says:

    We bich and moan about the need for size, and this is how managment chooses to address it. Stupid, stupid trade. I doubt reider had a place on this team, but he was worth more than the return, and he would have been a useful trading piece for a playoff run in a year or two. Dammit!

  7. MrSmitty says:

    More stupidity from Tambo. We are doomed if this bunch of clowns are allowed to continue to be the decision makers for this organization.

  8. Kris11 says:

    Also,

    Kessy appears to be a worse (or at least not much better) player at 20 in junior than when he was drafted, stats wise.

    Ouch.

  9. Hayek says:

    Kessy has 4G 12A in 49GP this year. 10G 14A in 65GP last year.

    It’s bad enough we have one Travis Ewanyk in the system.

    Now we have two.

    Terrible deal.

  10. misfit says:

    Hayek: Kessy has 4G 12A in 49GP this year. 10G 14A in 65GP last year.It’s bad enough we have one Travis Ewanyk in the system. Now we have two.Terrible deal.

    Those are his numbers from last year.

    He’s 21-22-43 in 60GP this year between the Tigers, Giants, and Blazers. He’s 4-2-6 in 4 playoff games this year.

  11. striatic says:

    i like this trade because it demonstrates the phone lines are still working on Kingsway Ave.

    i dislike this trade for every other reason.

  12. Kris11 says:

    Rieder is now a middling prospect, so this is a minor trade in terms of consequences. But this is the worst trade I have ever seen Tambellini make, or nearly any GM, in terms of likelihood to improve the team. Ever.

    There is just no way that Klapsy (whatever, forget his name now, because he will never take a regular shifti the NHl) is better than Rieder, even if Rieder ain’t great. Any scout and GM would say that, so Tambellini just traded an undeniably better player for a worse one straight up for no reason at all. None.

    Heck, even Klofty plus a 6th would have been something better than Kloopy for Rieder straight up, when Rieder is a clearly better propsect.

  13. Lowetide says:

    Updated the story, added some links including an interesting one from Luedeke.

  14. TheOtherJohn says:

    FFS

    I am a proponent of getting bigger in top 4D, top 7F because those are the players that play the really big minutes. Disproportionately big minutes.

    Wow just WOW

    Expect this another player from the Coke machine era: or maybe Kessy destroyed someone on the Oil Kings badly in a fight.

    Am sure we will see his 3:41 TOI frequently moving forward. Silver lining we don’t have to pay him $850K on a one way contract to play in AHL

  15. Hayek says:

    Kris11,

    Gilbert for Schultz, that was the most terrible trade imo.

  16. TheOtherJohn says:

    LT

    Can you raise Kessy with Luedeke tomorrow along with the St Albans, Mass. high school league update ;-)

  17. Kris11 says:

    Hayek,

    Even that trade is more defensible. There was a little cap savings and it is hard to measure how good a defensive dman like Schultz will be, and as crazy as the reasons for not liking Gilbert were, at least they were reasons.

  18. "Steve Smith" says:

    Hayek,

    That was worse in that it hurt the team far more than this one did, but I think Kris’s point is that there is approximately a 0% chance of this one improving the team. I mean, Gilbert could have suffered a career-ending injury after the trade last season, which would have meant that the trade improved the team, because we’d have been left with Schultz, who’s basically serviceable. If Rieder suffers a career-ending injury tomorrow, though, this still doesn’t improve the team, because we got a guy who is not going to play on the team.

  19. prairieschooner says:

    OIlers were not going to be able to sign Rieder so they got something for what was going to be nothing

  20. "Steve Smith" says:

    I don’t hate this trade only because it probably doesn’t matter very much: we traded a guy with an 8% chance of making an impact in the NHL for a guy with a 2% chance of doing so. It’s not a smart trade at all, but it also really doesn’t matter.

    (Numbers based on a study in which I tested different numbers until I found two that looked good.)

  21. Woodguy says:

    I don’t hate this trade.

    Rieder is trending to be Liam Reddox and I’d much rather have a Kessy than an Abney.

    Problem is having both, along with Ewanyk and Moroz.

    Now that they have Ptilick, Hamilton, Kessy, Ewanyk and Moroz maybe they won’t spend either of the 2nd rounders this year going after the same type.

    I wonder if all 5 of those players are in OKC next year?

    All the pucks will be hacked square.

    For a large man who likes to fight I rather like that Kessy’s offensive output is trending up.

    Its a long shot that either player in this trade ever takes a regular shift in the NHL so I’ll save my emotions for when real NHLers or close are involved in a trade.

  22. "Steve Smith" says:

    prairieschooner,

    Does that suggest that they are going to sign Kessy? And, if so, why?

    I appreciate that Rieder is worthless to the team if they weren’t going to sign him. But by the same token, Kessy is also worthless to the team if they’re not going to sign him, which means that they only got “something” if they do so. Which they really shouldn’t, because there is no point at which the Oilers’ reserve list is going to be in a state that adding Kessy to it would be worth the contract it would take up.

    Hence my point above about this being basically a nothing-for-nothing trade.

  23. Kris11 says:

    misfit,

    As a 20 year old, coming off garbage seasons, in his fourth full season in junior, after an intriguing pre-draft campaign, he scored 20 goals and 40 some points. Blech.

    You’re supposed to absolutely dominate junior hockey at that age if you’re going to make the NHL.

    Bust. Lucky to have a solid AHL career.

  24. Woodguy says:

    I might be being hard on Rieder in comparing him to Reddox as Rieder had an injury that may have impaired his progress this year.

    Still long shots for long shots.

  25. Clarkenstein says:

    Nothing to see here folks….move along please!

  26. striatic says:

    prairieschooner,

    that’s the only explanation that makes any sense.

    why wasn’t Reider going to sign though?

  27. Kris11 says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    I don’t hate this trade only because it probably doesn’t matter very much: we traded a guy with an 8% chance of making an impact in the NHL for a guy with a 2% chance of doing so.It’s not a smart trade at all, but it also really doesn’t matter.

    (Numbers based on a study in which I tested different numbers until I found two that looked good.)

    Just like with cap hits, getting the best prospects is an efficiency game, Every little bit counts. Ewanyk, Abney, Moroz, Kesspy all count against you and they all add up. If just one of the better available picks we could have grabbed at those slots is a career 3rd liner, that sucks.

  28. Kris11 says:

    Woodguy:
    I might be being hard on Rieder in comparing him to Reddox as Rieder had an injury that may have impaired his progress this year.

    Still long shots for long shots.

    Long shot for a demonstrably longer shot.

    I’ll trade you my nickel for your dime. My nickel is tougher and it suits your needs.

  29. Lowetide says:

    The only real reason to be at least a little happy is that this is a guy they were going to Jeremie Blain (imo) and now they get something for him instead of nothing.

    It also means they’re signing Bigos.

  30. "Steve Smith" says:

    Kris11:
    I’ll trade you my nickel for your dime. My nickel is tougher and it suits your needs.

    That’s actually an excellent analogy. But when you include a rule that I can only have fifty coins of a certain age, I tell you to take my dime and keep your nickel, so that I can limit myself to loonies and twoonies.

  31. TheOtherJohn says:

    WG

    Better Q: wonder if all 5 of those guys are in ECHL next year?

  32. Kris11 says:

    Add up all the picks, cap dollars, amd roster spots this team has spent on toughness, and it makes me wish they’d just held on to Macintyre or Jessie Boulerice, even at 2.5 MM a year.

    3rd for Abney, high second for Moroz, A third for Brown.

    Two roster spots (and now contract spots) for Eager and Hordichuk, along with a small protion of Eager’s cap hit as it is buried.

    What kind of players could be traded for if the Oilers offered a high second rounder, two thirds, and the willingness to bury two bad, small contracts?

    I’ll note that the Pens paid less for Iginla than a high second and two thirds and some buried contracts. (Okay he wanted to go there and had a NTC, and is a rental, but you get the point.) Certainly, the aoilers could’ve got useful players for the bottom of the roster by trading those picks.

    Could sweeten the pot more with the the picks used on Rieder and Ewanyk, too.

  33. Lowetide says:

    Part of this is that the Oilers are looking for this player type and bottom 6 forwards. Pollock used to draft Chris Nilan’s in the 17th round, but the early rounds were devoted to skill. If you have too much skill? Trade it to Oakland.

  34. Woodguy says:

    Kris11: Long shot for a demonstrably longer shot.

    I’ll trade you my nickel for your dime. My nickel is tougher and it suits your needs.

    Proman actually thinks Kessy has a better chance at being an NHLer (probably due to size, he didn’t say, as per his twitter timeline), but likes Rieder more, but will make the NHL as a Pisani type, not a scorer if he makes it at all.

    Tyler also linked to something he did about NHL scorers and their development curve.

    Rieder essentially has no chance at being an NHL scorer.

    http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=4220

  35. WeridAl says:

    Love this trade

  36. Smarmy says:

    Reider’s age 20 season is not a good season. With Kessy they might have someone that could one day play the bottom six but probably not.

    This is a ho hum sort of deal that isn’t really worth any emotion.

  37. leadfarmer says:

    Wish we would have combined these garbage cave troll picks and traded up to pick Samuelson at the draft. At least we would have a shot at one good player instead of several players who look like at best the would be waiver wire pickups

  38. Crooked says:

    He demotes Eager and Horichuk then trades for Brown and adds another coke machine? Huh?

  39. Lowetide says:

    Smarmy:
    Reider’s age 20 season is not a good season. With Kessy they might have someone that could one day play the bottom six but probably not.

    This is a ho hum sort of deal that isn’t really worth any emotion.

    This isn’t his age 20 season, it’s his age 19 season.

  40. Smarmy says:

    Lowetide,

    I stand corrected. I thought this was his last eligible junior year. It’s still pretty ho hum though.

  41. nelson88 says:

    I’m part of the Reider fan club and think he is going to surprise on the upside. Suspect the oil got the worst of this deal but hopefully at lease a couple of these “skilled” big guys actually makes it.

  42. Lowetide says:

    The guy to worry over imo is Gernat. If the Oilers don’t sign him, or trade him, then I just don’t know.

  43. Marc says:

    nelson88:
    I’m part of the Reider fan club and think he is going to surprise on the upside. Suspect the oil got the worst of this deal but hopefully at lease a couple of these “skilled” big guys actually makes it.

    Statistically speaking, 1 in 4 second round picks play 200 games in the NHL in any capacity, and this falls to 1 in 8 players picked in the third round or later. So for the Oilers to find a single big fourth line player they really need to pick five or six guys over a few drafts – which is exactly what they’ve done.

    They’ve actually done the same with undersize forwards (Omark, Rajala, Pelss, Reider, Jones) and goalies (Roy, Bunz, Perhonen, Touhimma) – if they’re lucky one in each category will turn into a player.

    I find it hard to get too upset about the Oilers trading one player who’s unlikely to make the NHL for another player who’s unlikely to make the NHL, especially when they’re trading a player type that (rightly or wrongly) isn’t going to get much of a chance to play in the bottom six in this for a player type that they organisation will play in the bottom six if they develop NHL calibre (or in some cases sub-NHL calibre) skills.

  44. bookje says:

    McKenzie tweeted that the Oilers were really interested in getting Ham Sandwich from LA, but LA wanted them to throw a conditional 2nd round draft pick based upon Ham Sandwich being delicious in his first season,so Tambellini went with Kessy.

  45. spoiler says:

    Marc: Statistically speaking, 1 in 4 second round picks play 200 games in the NHL in any capacity, and this falls to 1 in 8players picked in the third round or later.So for the Oilers to find a single big fourth line player they really need to pick five or six guys over a few drafts – which is exactly what they’ve done.

    They’ve actually done the same with undersize forwards (Omark, Rajala, Pelss, Reider, Jones) and goalies (Roy, Bunz, Perhonen, Touhimma) – if they’re lucky one in each category will turn into a player.

    I find it hard to get too upset about the Oilers trading one player who’s unlikely to make the NHL for another player who’s unlikely to make the NHL, especially when they’re trading a player type that (rightly or wrongly) isn’t going to get much of a chance to play in the bottom six in this for a player type that they organisation will play in the bottom six if they develop NHL calibre (or in some cases sub-NHL calibre) skills.

    Dead on.

  46. LoDog says:

    I wouldn’t be surprised if reider had no plans on signing with the Oilers. He could see as well as anyone else he had no chance at a top six with the Oilers in the next five years or ever.

  47. spoiler says:

    Have to think that Kessy is a player who would have been extensively scouted by Magbastard Stu.

  48. TheOtherJohn says:

    spoiler:
    Have to think that Kessy is a player who would have been extensively scouted by Magbastard Stu.

    Pretty sure Moroz, Abney and Tuebert meet that criteria as well…….And so?

  49. nelson88 says:

    Marc,

    I won’t lose any sleep over it. Agree that Rajala’s season and to a lesser extent Pelss likely had them feeling the small, skilled “bucket” had decent depth.

  50. nelson88 says:

    He’s also from SK so at the very least he is likely a good “team” guy and can throw em ;)

  51. rickithebear says:

    Last year his Goals per game pace was bettter than C. perry’s.
    This year he played 3rd line till mid jan. when they got him a set-up guy like last year.
    Those who didn’t know this did not do there work.

    Since then
    22GM 18G 14A 32P .81GPG 1.46PPG
    in your 19 year season the players NHLE range is .35 to .40% based on age.
    Rieder is .37
    last year he trend to 25G 25A
    This year he trends to 25G 25A

    Kessy
    His trending says a
    12G 12A player in the NHL.
    but i wish dejardins junior curves had size a measure.
    i like alot hear believe a 6’3″ players curves may be stalled by a year
    so we are getting a
    12-15EVG 12-15EVA power forward who can hit and fight.
     
    I was so pisse when i read this.
    But!
    1. then i realized rajalas season made rieders spot gone.
    2. based on Production Kessy may actually be the one!

  52. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    I’m going to find a single positive: “Kale Kessy.”

    The guy knows how to have a name.

  53. Htiran says:

    I don’t understand all the the hate about this trade unless i’m reading the stats wrong. Rieder this year has 56 points in 56 games, and Kessy has 43 points in 60 games. Rieder had a crazy year last year but now its back to roughly the same as his first year in the OHL point wise. Kessy on the other hand seems to be trending upwards, that is unless this year is a freak year for Kessy. last year his point totals dipped a bit because he played almost 20 less games than the previous seasons. Also, looking at the stats it seems like Kessy is a 3rd-4th line winger who is 6th in scoring on and pretty high scoring team. While, Rieder on the other hand is playing in the top 2 lines and has close to around the same points production as Kessy. Mind you, the Rangers don’t seem like a team that is scoring at the same pace as the Blazers, considering their leading scorer only as 73 points in the regular season, while the Blazers top 4 has 80+ points each, so that is something to consider. But base on the production this year and for his size it seems like a good trade no? I got the information here for their stats.

    http://www.kitchenerrangers.com/main/index

    http://whl.ca/stats/show/type/skaters/ls_season/242/ls_team/203

  54. Lowetide says:

    Redline’s Kyle Woodlief via chat the week of the 2011 draft

    Red Line:
    Good question on Kale Kessy. At Red Line, we do think he could become more than just a brawler. He played on a Medicine Hat team that was deep in skilled forwards, so he only saw third line icetime, and rarely saw any quality time on the PP. But we think he’s got the skating ability to be a force as well, and when he moves up the pecking order in the Hat, he’ll start developing his puckhandling skills. He really is the definition a raw, green kid who could round out his game nicely and become a late bloomer offensively.

  55. sliderule says:

    This switch while minor should make all MPS fans very nervous.

    There is a reason that Lowe has Buchberger and Semenko as oilers for life.They had two things in common as players cement heads and hands.

    Lowe loved that in them and if he doesn’t see it in his players he ships them out a la Gilbert Stoll Brodziak etc.

  56. Lowetide says:

    House (Hamilton)

  57. Woodguy says:

    Lowetide,

    Big men who can skate is their MO.

    Abney still baffles.

  58. Lowetide says:

    Rondo:
    Redline’s Kyle Woodliefmock draft 2011.

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/columnist/woodlief/2011-06-22-red-line-report-mock-nhl-draft_n.htm

    Who is that at #29 ?

    Well, that’s crazy.

  59. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    I feel like my fond memories of cheering for Rieder at the WJC this year have been burgled.

    Maybe we’ll draft that Leon Draisatl kid down the road and my memories will be restored.

  60. VOR says:

    This is not meant as a knock on Kale Kessy but rather on Oilers’ brain trust.

    Oilers’ management wants a particular kind of player – lets call him Milan Lucic (I don’t think they are looking for the second coming of Marty McSorley) – their approach for acquiring same is to acquire young men who have some of the same attributes as Lucic. I see that as a flawed approach since you need all the key atributes (ie. it is essential the guys you acquire can score). Of the over agers in the WHL the only guy currently putting up a Lucic resume is Dave Lowry’s son Adam. Huge kid, good skater, great hands, good hitter, not much of a fighter but willing. He could be a real handful in a fight when he fills into that massive frame because he has fast hands, really fast hands. Who do the Oilers trade for? A guy who at best will be an NHL goon.

    You can make an argument that Lowry has had more opportunity than Kessy and maybe the real Kessy is emerging in the year’s playoffs. If not then this another dumb attempt at using the quantity over quality approach to getting tougher. I think they would be better off to acquire big skilled coke machines and hope one of them shows up early and in a bad mood than continue to get guys with the tude but not the talent. That is if they insist on using size as a decisive factor in their decisions in the first place.

  61. sliderule says:

    Rieder with a goal and two apples.

    Could this be Ray Whitney all over again.

  62. Lowetide says:

    None of the players traded today is an overager. They are both in their 19 year old seasons.

  63. shawwwood says:

    like to hear everyones thoughts on some of Barons scratches tonight. Hordichuk, Eager, VandeVelde and Teubert

  64. Lowetide says:

    Rajala (Lander)

    There’s your Rieder roster spot right there. Rajala ate his lunch.

  65. hunter1909 says:

    shawwwood:
    like to hear everyones thoughts on some of Barons scratches tonight. Hordichuk, Eager, VandeVelde and Teubert

    The four are being sent to Pittsburgh in a 4 for 1 swap to bring Jerome Iginla to the oilers.

  66. sliderule says:

    VOR you are bang on.

    You can bring toughness and grit out of big kids but you will never get hands if they don’t show it early.

  67. Lowetide says:

    shawwwood:
    like to hear everyones thoughts on some of Barons scratches tonight. Hordichuk, Eager, VandeVelde and Teubert

    scrubs, apparently. Barons up 3-0 now.

  68. Lowetide says:

    Arcobello (Green)

  69. oilersfan says:

    I couldnt help but notice on woodlief”s list that Brandon Saad was ranked 30rh and if he lasted that long he’d be the steal of the draft. Well he was there at 31 and the Oilers took Musil who might in three years replace peckham or teubert or fistric as a third pairing banger. Way to go mediocre bastard.

  70. Woodguy says:

    Lowetide:
    None of the players traded today is an overager. They are both in their 19 year old seasons.

    Thanks for the clarification LT.

    I was part of the problem there.

    Math is hard.

  71. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Lowetide:
    None of the players traded today is an overager. They are both in their 19 year old seasons.

    does KK have another year of JR. then?

  72. nelson88 says:

    shawwwood,

    Road game with limited bunks on the bus so not surprising that Eager and Hordi aren’t there. Perhaps VDV is the C that Krueger mentioned coming up. Teubert is a bit of a surprise but wouldn’t be shocking if he is traded twice before he is 22 (?). Wouldn’t be a great loss imo.

  73. hunter1909 says:

    I love seeing tiny hockey players eliminated in all forms from the roster. Why? because around 2000 the oilers always used to draft 15th or thereabouts – never high enough to get a stud player, so they’d “make do” and take flyers on pint-sized forwards with possible NHL upside – and where did that get them?

    Marchant, Comrie, Cogliano, MAB, and a host of other dwarves none of which did anything other than help the oilers lose, and lose. I guess no one remembers Modano effortlessly sailing through the middle of the ice, while oiler’s dwarves would be forced by bigger bullies like Hatcher into playing entire series’ three feet off the boards. Oh yes – always hoping for that killer miracle ala Marchant that statistically, simply doesn’t happen very often.

    So, over time, oilers and their fans have grown into fanatics – always hunting for the small white hope that will finally vindicate both the psychological impairment of KLowe/MacT, and for the veteran fans, the Messier for Bernie Nichols “trade”.

  74. sliderule says:

    Okay hunter list all the big players we have drafted that have been good.

    Maybe JFJ or MAP?

  75. Lowetide says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: does KK have another year of JR. then?

    He could play at 20, yes. So could Rieder btw, they’re about 1 month apart in age.

  76. bookje says:

    Kris11: Long shot for a demonstrably longer shot.

    I’ll trade you my nickel for your dime. My nickel is tougher and it suits your needs.

    The thing is, nickels don’t matter. They should have gotten rid of them with the penny. Just drop the decimal, get rid of quarters and start stamping $0.50 pieces. Nobody cares about nickels and nobody should care much about this trade.

  77. Woodguy says:

    Lowetide:
    Rajala (Lander)

    There’s your Rieder roster spot right there. Rajala ate his lunch.

    Very good point.

    There is a lot of hand wringing about a guy who barely put up 1pt/gm in WHL this year and Rajala is putting up 1pt/gm in the AHL.

    He’s only 5’10 165lbs and the Oilers haven’t run him off.

    Kristins Pelss is taking a regular shift in OKC and he’s 5’11 190lbs

    To supplement men like the above and Gagner, RNH, Eberle, the Oilers are looking for big men who can skate and play at the NHL level and they will have to audition a bunch of them until they find a couple who will stick. It takes a lot of rough to find the diamond.

    The key to not making it a gong show is clearing the failing ones out as fast as they bring new ones in and not have 1/3 of the 50 man full of coke machines.

    Let’s not forget the Pisani was 6’1″ 210lbs, was 23 years old when he started in the AHL and 26 before he stuck in the NHL.

    I have no illusions that Kessy can be a Pisani type, but the point is that the bottom of the roster is best filled with size and ability, not just ability.

    Its when they fill the bottom of the NHL roster with size and no ability that we can bitch with gusto.

    There is too much loosing of minds about young marginal types.

    The Oilers can afford to be making more long shot type choices as the top of the forward roster looks very solid for a long time.

    I bitch about management as much as most, if not more, and this move is very defensible.

    Tempest in a teapot.

  78. hunter1909 says:

    sliderule: Okay hunter list all the big players we have drafted that have been good.
    Maybe JFJ or MAP?

    With respect, answering your question has no bearing whatsoever on my remarks. The fact is, they constantly look to find “gems” where there aren’t any, and as a result waste their time(which arguably is impossible).

    The fact they’re totally shit at drafting simply adds more wood to the fire that needs to be built, in order to cleanse the franchise from their incompetence/nepotism/favoritism.

  79. hunter1909 says:

    bookje,

    But what would become of all the new property “millionaires”?

  80. nelson88 says:

    speaking of rajala.

    makes me reminisce for good old DeeSFU who assured us earlier in the year that Rajala was a small, skinny waste of pick that wouldn’t be able to handle the AHL (as he was ripping up the ECHL). I commented that he was a 4th round pick so we couldn’t complain too much given that the Canucks picked a very similar player at the tail end of the 1st round.

    Excellent time to reflect on that
    Rajala: 34 Games, 11G, 20A, 33 pts. and +13
    Schroeder: 33 Games, 10G, 13A, 23 pts. and -2

  81. BlacqueJacque says:

    I don’t hate this trade, but I do think it would have been better to hold on to Rieder, let him develop in the AHL, and keep him as a chip for a future need (like a playoff rental defenceman),

  82. GordM says:

    OKC being unkind to the recently AHL assigned Brian Elliot. 3-0 Barons after 2. Rajala, Arcobello, House.

  83. sliderule says:

    I went to the oiler training camp when they brought Ray Whitney in for tryout.

    The buddy i was with said he is the best player in the camp.I said man he is small.

    I learned my lesson but I don’t think the oilers have.

    In fairness it was under Sather but don’t measure players by size.

    Measure by skill and grit.

  84. Kitchener says:

    Fucking Hell.

    Rieder has more upside than downside. A longshot to make the NHL, but serious chops at his level. Kessy better be worth it.

    How many $20′s have a sprung to see a future Oiler’s OHL games? How many $8 beers? Tambo owes me big time.

    Outrage from Kitchener.

  85. Lowetide says:

    Kitchener:
    Fucking Hell.

    Rieder has more upside than downside.A longshot to make the NHL, but serious chops at his level.Kessy better be worth it.

    How many $20′s have a sprung to see a future Oiler’s OHL games?How many $8 beers?Tambo owes me big time.

    Outrage from Kitchener.

    Ha! I love Oiler fans.

  86. GordM says:

    GordM:
    OKC being unkind to the recently AHL assigned Brian Elliot.3-0 Barons after 2.Rajala, Arcobello, House.

    Hey idiot…you are about 10 posts too late…read the comments before replying.
    Regards,
    GordM

  87. kinger_OIL says:

    Umm, Hello: maybe they just traded away on of the 50 roster spots, for someone unsigned so they could do a one for two, or something like that?

  88. Traktor says:

    Small skill guys are on waivers all the time re: Jokinen

    Same thing with tough guys but Kessey has enough
    skill to play skill to play regular 4th line minutes and he is a legit tough guy.

    Doesn’t seem like such a bad trade,

  89. sliderule says:

    Kitchener I have liked reading your eyes on reports on Rieder.

    Let’s hope they draft an OHL player you can follow.

    What do you think of Monahan?

  90. Henry says:

    Lowetide: This isn’t his age 20 season, it’s his age 19 season.

    Look what happens if you have an off day at age 19.

  91. Henry says:

    Lowetide:
    The guy to worry over imo is Gernat. If the Oilers don’t sign him, or trade him, then I just don’t know.

    They have to sign him. How can the amateur scouts continue to toil for the man if they don’t sign a guy for getting injured in his teens? Does that make them wrong about Gernat? no. Rieder, I hope not, but have my doubts. I was hoping for Rieder to be their MacT, the player.

  92. Lowetide says:

    By the way, Pitlick playing tonight for the first time in 2 months.

  93. WeridAl says:

    Lowetide,

    Has had a couple of good rushes, still some rust though.

  94. hags9k says:

    As Woodguy said, “The hunt for Lucic continues…..”

    Good! And why shouldn’t it?

    It’s not like we’re seeing any big up arrows from Pitilick, Hamilton, Ewanyk, Moroz.

    We need to keep turning over rocks. Unfortunately for Reider there is only so much room on the “small skilled” bus and as was mentioned, Rajala probably ate his lunch.

    We moan and groan about St. Louis banging us around, we moan and groan about the roster imbalance and duplicity, then moan and groan when they make a totally reasonable trade trying to find a power forward. If one of these guys pans out we will have filled a huge hole, but if they don’t we say they wasted another spot on a coke machine. Guys, do we want a Lucic type or not? I think we do.

  95. Lowetide says:

    Brandon Davidson gets an EN goal. Great story continues.

  96. dawgtoy says:

    Lubo gets a contract extension on Long Island.

  97. dawgtoy says:

    2 years at 9.5. Cha-Ching, at first he won’t go , then they make him a sweet retirement deal.

  98. sliderule says:

    I would take Brad Marchand every time over Lucic.

    Look for hockey players don’t get fixated on body types.

  99. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    sliderule:
    I would take Brad Marchand every time over Lucic.

    Look for hockey players don’t get fixated on body types.

    give me bergeron. Marchand has “Hall’s disease” he’s going to run into one too many dump-trucks along the way and break down.

  100. justDOit says:

    Romulus Apotheosis,

    Bergeron is one of the most under-rated players in the game. I have a friend who is a B’s fan, and he worships the ice Bergeron skates on. Lucic – not so much.

  101. russ99 says:

    hags9k,

    Sure, but there’s only one Lucic and it’s foolish to waste draft picks and prospects on bottom six coke machines when a bunch are available with nhl experience on the FA market every year, not to mention waivers.

    The trade itself shouldn’t really bother anyone, as Reider was a long shot at best. Yet the chronic mismanagement does.

  102. RickDeckard says:

    Lowetide,

    Wrong. Kessy is a 1992. Just because he was first eligible for the draft in 2011 doesn’t change that.

  103. prairieschooner says:

    Lowetide,

    I am concerned here too LT

  104. BONVIE says:

    They must have been trying to trade for Samuelson, and then Phoenix said we have another similar type player we would trade how about Kessey?

  105. whale says:

    Interesting talk about Kessy. I hear he’s a center. That’s a good thing.

  106. maudite says:

    Am I reading this right:

    Kessy has one more year prior to requiring a pro contract, where as Reider does not?

    If so, I’m not 100% on the deal as I’ve seen neither really play enough but I definitely am a fan of what appears to be thought given to the 50 man contract limit for the first time ever…

  107. jp says:

    misfit: Those are his numbers from last year.

    He’s 21-22-43 in 60GP this year between the Tigers, Giants, and Blazers.He’s 4-2-6 in 4 playoff games this year.

    Trending.

    TheOtherJohn:
    Silver lining we don’t have to pay him $850K on a one way contract to play in AHL

    Not yet anyway.

    Woodguy:

    Rieder is trending to be Liam Reddox and I’d much rather have a Kessy than an Abney.

    Problem is having both, along with Ewanyk and Moroz.

    Kessy-Ewanyk-Moroz
    You may have pinpointed managements dream bottom 3.

    Kris11:

    I’ll trade you my nickel for your dime. My nickel is tougher and it suits your needs.

    The nickel is also bigger. Nickel wins the trade.

  108. godot10 says:

    You live by the sword. You die by the sword.

    Tobias Rieder pulled a Justin Schultz/Riley Nash. So you either trade him, or you can be stubborn and get nothing for him.

    Rieder and his agent took a lay of the land and decided that 3 to 5 years locked up inside the Oilers organization at the AHL level was not the best place for him to have an NHL opportunity on a team that had Nugent-Hopkins and Gagner, and was likely to draft a centre this year in the top 10.

    I don’t see why people are so riled up. The player was NOT going to sign a contract.

  109. squeezboks says:

    godot10:
    You live by the sword.You die by the sword.

    Tobias Rieder pulled a Justin Schultz/Riley Nash.So you either trade him, or you can be stubborn and get nothing for him.

    Rieder and his agent took a lay of the land and decided that 3 to 5 years locked up inside the Oilers organization at the AHL level was not the best place for him to have an NHL opportunity on a team that had Nugent-Hopkins and Gagner, and was likely to draft a centre this year in the top 10.

    I don’t see why people are so riled up.The player was NOT going to sign a contract.

    This.

  110. jp says:

    godot10:
    You live by the sword.You die by the sword.

    Tobias Rieder pulled a Justin Schultz/Riley Nash.So you either trade him, or you can be stubborn and get nothing for him.

    Rieder and his agent took a lay of the land and decided that 3 to 5 years locked up inside the Oilers organization at the AHL level was not the best place for him to have an NHL opportunity on a team that had Nugent-Hopkins and Gagner, and was likely to draft a centre this year in the top 10.

    I don’t see why people are so riled up.The player was NOT going to sign a contract.

    Nice narrative, but is there any evidence this is what really happened? If so, then of course you’ve got to make some kind of move if you can.

    Valuing a Coke machine over a small skilled forward also fits what we’d expect from this management team though. I don’t see why we should doubt this is the guy they really wanted.

  111. BlacqueJacque says:

    This Sam Reinhart kid, he’s a 2014 eligible player, right?

    Quite impressive.

  112. dessert1111 says:

    The only way this would make sense is if Rieder wouldn’t sign and knew he would be signed by someone else if he became a free agent.

    I don’t know anything about the guy the Oilers got but this sounds like a horrible trade. I would find it hard to believe the Oilers either didnt do their homework or were seemingly so dumb. Rieder has good offensive totals for someone who is known for playing a two-way game and being on the best penalty killers in the OHL. I understand the desire for big bodies to play with skill in the NHL, but that doesn’t mean Rieder’s player type isn’t more useful, and it doesn’t mean Rieder isn’t the better player.

    I am biased because Rieder is/was my favourite prospect, but he was my favourite because I saw him good a lot and thought he played a more complete game than the vast majority of 19 year olds.

    This seems like a really dumb trade, though I can understand why they did it. Still very frustrating.

  113. dessert1111 says:

    Re: Rajala taking Rieder’s spot: I’ve seen both play quite a few times and they don’t seem like the same player type. I get the size comparison, but Rajala is also significantly smaller than Rieder. The biggest difference IMO is that Rieder projects as a responsible 2-way 3rd line RW who can PK effectively and play up the lineup in the top 6 for spot duty. Rajala projects to a scoring line, which is where they have no size and presumably want more.

  114. hunter1909 says:

    jp: Valuing a Coke machine over a small skilled forward also fits what we’d expect from this management team though. I

    Yes. How dare they stop small skilled forwards from being valued over big tough prospects, because…

    Maybe they like the idea of oiler’s eventually having some players that can actually help the young stars? Maybe another “small skilled forward’ simply isn’t going to cut it?

    Or, should they continue to find more smurfs, even this one who obviously hasn’t signed a contract and therefore is about to walk free from the clutches of Steve Tambellini’s Flying Circus?

  115. Lowetide says:

    dessert1111:
    Re: Rajala taking Rieder’s spot: I’ve seen both play quite a few times and they don’t seem like the same player type. I get the size comparison, but Rajala is also significantly smaller than Rieder. The biggest difference IMO is that Rieder projects as a responsible 2-way 3rd line RW who can PK effectively and play up the lineup in the top 6 for spot duty. Rajala projects to a scoring line, which is where they have no size and presumably want more.

    That’s the one thing about the trade that could bite them in the ass. Rieder has a nice range of skills, and could get to the NHL in any number of ways:

    1. offense blossoms
    2. refines his skills as an EV scorer in the AHL
    3. remains a 2-way player
    4. adds value with effective PK work

    That’s a few things.

  116. Lucinius says:

    Well, Dallas and Columbus winning continues to make things way too close in the West. Odds-makers aside.. its not really that hard to imagine anyone from 7-13 ending up in the playoffs. I include San Jose because they are a very streaky team and it could very well break into a losing streak as easily as a winning streak for them.

    Basically, every team in that range has enough flaws in them and enough upside to make the push if things break right.

    Really curious to see what Colorado does this deadline/off season.

  117. supernova says:

    Woodguy,

    Woodguy,

    Couldn’t agree with you more.

    If we make a list of guys that are in the league and can score 20 goals plus a year and physically intimidate the opposition we might be 6 or 7 deep, and you can’t get trade for them unless you seriously overpay.

    We can knock management all we want but we are the biggest hyprocrites around, what have the blogs been calling for? We are saying trade hemsky, trade ….. For a goal +, 100 PIM players.

    If 1 out 10 or 12 of these guys ” Coke machines” turns into even a clutterbuck, or a Dorsett, we would all be over the top happy.

    The real alternative will be instead of spending 3 and 4 th rounders they will start using 1st again, how is mikhonov working out?

  118. WeridAl says:

    supernova,

    Very true.

  119. Kitchener says:

    sliderule,

    Thanks. I go to OHL games only often enough to keep tabs on Oil kids or generally noteworthy prospects. Zharkov, Subban, etc. I went to see Nail months before he was drafted, etc. Monahan hasn’t been on my radar, but it looks like my radar needs some reorientation.

    I agree – drafting 10 Coke Machines is a plan that may work out. Sigh.

  120. dessert1111 says:

    Lowetide:

    1. offense blossoms
    2. refines his skills as an EV scorer in the AHL
    3. remains a 2-way player
    4. adds value with effective PK work

    That’s a few things.

    Precisely. And it would seem a wise bet to invest in someone who has multiple ways to enter the league vs a guy who has one, especially when his one (i.e. being “Lucic-like”) seems much more unlikely to blossom than an effective PK-er, a two-way winger or even a scorer.

    I really worry about this management. It’s no fun to cheer for a team who seems to be run incompetently. It’s not like this is the first thing they’ve done that seems like a poor bet.

  121. supernova says:

    Kitchener,

    I would estimate it is a organizational goal to use 1 to 2 picks a year out of 7, until they get a player In the big leagues.

    Look at how much praise LA gets for Nolan, and King. If you watch the OHL he looks a lot like Kessy doesn’t it?

    Whether we agree or not it is an organizational decision to fill out the roster with these guys.

    I have seen Kessy live quite a few times, if he makes the oil in a few years he will be loved. He intimidates the opposition and they are always looking for him, he can transfer that at the very least bcause he shows no fear at all.

  122. Lowetide says:

    dessert1111: Precisely. And it would seem a wise bet to invest in someone who has multiple ways to enter the league vs a guy who has one, especially when his one (i.e. being “Lucic-like”) seems much more unlikely to blossom than an effective PK-er, a two-way winger or even a scorer.

    I really worry about this management. It’s no fun to cheer for a team who seems to be run incompetently. It’s not like this is the first thing they’ve done that seems like a poor bet.

    That’s always been my pov. Having said that, I don’t know really how much of this is actually worthwhile rolling out. I mean, most of the good 2-way forwards in the NHL were pretty damn good scorers in junior, right?

    I don’t know. I guess what we’re wondering is this:

    1. Does this trade in any way represent one of those awful freaking trades people look back on and vomit, like nothing for Hasek or pebbles for Naslund?

    No.

  123. TheOtherJohn says:

    Sight unseen WG the day you see Kale Kessy in the NHL and think he reminds you of Fernando Pisani, simply post that thought here & I will buy you a bottle of 12 year old Scotch. Pisani is one of the smartest players that ever played for he Oilers and suspect Kessy will remind no one of Pisani

  124. VOR says:

    I don’t like the decisions the Oilers management are making but there is much to admire in the approach they take. Oilers management are consistent, they are following a plan, they are conservative, and inch by inch the team is getting better. Yet to hear us talk you’d think they were fools stuck in the world’s largest all you can eat buffet but unable to find food. Most of our criticisms are pure straw man arguments.

    Here abouts we spend a lot of time criticizing what they haven’t done (acquire this free agent or make that trade), criticizing what they will never do (imaginary trades they are going to make that would f the team up and keep us in the purgatory of the re-build), and criticizing what they have done in the past. The first is flawed because we don’t have insider knowledge and have no idea what is or isn’t possible. The second seems to consist of only our fevered nightmares regurgitated endlessly. With the third we forget that hindsight is twenty-twenty.

    Plus, we re-write history to make the argument more compelling like that the injury that has ruined the last two seasons of Ryan Whitney’s career was present when he came to Edmonton. Or that Eric Belanger didn’t want to be here from the time he signed. Or that somehow the Oilers’ management should have known Ben Eager would suffer a serious concussion in training camp. These imaginary sins get added to the real ones (Cam Barker) and a dossier of foam is treated like a tombstone of granite.

    As several bloggers have pointed out in posts here tonight the Oilers are trying the cheaper by the dozen approach to toughness. We can choose not to like it but no Oiler fan would feel too bad if the next time somebody ran Taylor Hall the second coming of Marty McSorley tried to kill the culprit. So Oilers mangement is damned if they don’t fix the toughness problem or they are damned for how they are fixing it.

    My argument above was that they went after Kessy while there was a bigger, better option, Adam Lowry available – Winnipeg isn’t sure if his recent surge is real or not and has been humming and hawing about moving him if possible. Lowry, Kessy, and Reider were all born within four months of each other but Lowry is younger than the other two, he is bigger, he is a better scorer and yes he would have cost us more than Kessy but we could reasonably have expected him to eventually play in the NHL because he has many ways to get there. He is a truly amazing penalty killer for example.

    Today’s trade follows a long established pattern. It seems straightforward but the Oilers organization has never been to grasp that you always take the best big man if you are looking for size. Had we simply gone for the biggest center available when we took MAP provided they had outscored MAP in a comparable league we would have ended up with Boyle and while not a world beater he is certainly an NHL player. If they are going coke machine shopping they should get the best coke machine available. Instead with Ewanyk, Moroz, and Kessy they went for they went for the best fighter available which isn’t at all the same thing. There is no way to predict which players’ pugilistic skills will survive the transition to the pro game and thus it should be very low down the list of Lucic tools on management’s shopping list. It isn’t.

  125. TheOtherJohn says:

    supernova:
    Woodguy,

    Woodguy,

    Couldn’t agree with you more.

    If we make a list of guys that are in the league and can score 20 goals plus a year and physically intimidate the opposition we might be 6 or 7 deep, and you can’t get trade for them unless you seriously overpay.

    We can knock management all we want but we are the biggest hyprocrites around, what have the blogs been calling for? We are saying trade hemsky, trade ….. For a goal +, 100 PIM players.

    If 1 out 10 or 12 of these guys ” Coke machines” turns into even a clutterbuck, or a Dorsett, we would all be over the top happy.

    The real alternative will be instead of spending 3 and 4 th rounders they will start using 1st again, how is mikhonov working out?

    FFS

    Kessy has scored 12goals in his draft year +1. Lucic scored 30 w 68 pts in same year we are not talking late bloomers,we are talking about rearranging deck chairs on Titanic. Better idea, dodge the icebergs

  126. McSorely Head says:

    Do we know KK’s middle name? Hopefully not Kelvin.

  127. mc79hockey says:

    Plus, we re-write history to make the argument more compelling like that the injury that has ruined the last two seasons of Ryan Whitney’s career was present when he came to Edmonton.

    Robin Brownlee wrote about it on the day after he was acquired!

    Or that Eric Belanger didn’t want to be here from the time he signed.

    The objection to Belanger is more the third year than anything. And it was obviously a bad bet when the deal was signed.

    Or that somehow the Oilers’ management should have known Ben Eager would suffer a serious concussion in training camp.

    Ben Eager once got a concussion without knowing how he got it and had a lengthy history of concussions. This shouldn’t be surprised.

    The problem isn’t bloggers with hindsight. It’s a fanbase with a short memory.

  128. TheOtherJohn says:

    Holy shit

    Did not think anyone still bought into the conservative roster build. Or at least anyone credible. It’s not true but more importantly there is zero evidence to support the suggestion. Nada. Whitney’s feet/ankle problems did not arise here and you are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to rewrite facts, Whitney had 2-3 year problems with his arches/ankles and now could not turn to save his life. Real good passer. Can’t turn. It ain’t an Oiler problem except that we traded for him.Its akin to trading for Josh Harding and expressing suprise he is not what he once was.

    No freaking clue what you are suggesting w Belanger . Bad choice but more so because he was 33 when we signed him to a bad contract and a bad candidate to grow roster if you believed conservative roster nonsense you are selling here today. Ie 33 at signing and 36 when stupid 3ear contract ends. Not too mart nor conservative

    Now as to Eager, does anyone believe the conclusions started this year? Last year? Or years go. Either Oilers did no due diligence before inning him, inadequate due diligence before signing him or his concussions just manifested themselves this year.

    What with Whitney, Souray & now Eager I’m thinking there’s a pattern n it ain’t conservative management skills its manifest and repeated stupidity

  129. dessert1111 says:

    Lowetide: That’s always been my pov. Having said that, I don’t know really how much of this is actually worthwhile rolling out. I mean, most of the good 2-way forwards in the NHL were pretty damn good scorers in junior, right?

    I don’t know. I guess what we’re wondering is this:

    1. Does this trade in any way represent one of those awful freaking trades people look back on and vomit, like nothing for Hasek or pebbles for Naslund?

    No.

    You are absolutely right, but i will say this: advanced statistics that measure two-way ability are a relatively recent development in hockey. If things like corsi were measured in Junior, would the organization take his two-play play more into consideration to determine that he is the superior player?

    I guess what I’m driving at is that this decision seems to be based on projecting Rieder solely as an offensive player, which just seems to me like poor evaluation/decision-making. If it happens on this level, there is no reason to believe that it doesn’t happen at the present NHL level. A bad decision is a bad decision, even though its consequences would be obviously much more apparent if the trade was Fernando Pisani with more scoring upside for Mike Brown.

    Perhaps in the past only players who were enough of offensive standouts to garner attention were given the opportunity to compete for NHL jobs. The players who stick out the most at each level are the ones who get the most points, imo, especially in the past when hockey wasn’t as heavily scouted. What if players who projected more as 2-way types were given the same opportunity to be groomed to the NHL as kids who were primarily scorers? We might see more effective 2-way NHL players who weren’t necessarily lights-out scorer in Junior. And it’s not like scoring at Rieder’s clip isn’t good — there must be several NHL players, 2-way and otherwise, who scored at Rieder’s clip in Junior, no?

    We’ll probably be better able to see if there is an increase in effective NHL 2-way players who weren’t primarily scorers in Junior in 5-10 years, especially if advanced statistics start to be undertaken at the Junior level.

  130. Ducey says:

    Went to the Oil Kings game tonight. 4-1 win for the home team.

    1. Gernat had a tough game. A few poor pinches resulted in odd man rushes. Got stapled to the bench for most of the third. He is a riverboat gambler with poor decision making. He has a long, long ways to go to make the NHL;

    2. Despite all the dislike here for Moroz, the guy can play. Good wheels, can check, good hands, tough. Some trouble burying the puck but generates some chances. Got boarded (5 minute major and game for Dirk) in the third and looked dead. Back in 5 minutes.

    3. Ewanyk and Musil didn’t stand out.

    4. The Oil Kings play a pretty tight defensive system. I expect that this reduces some offensive stats

    5. Lazar had two goals (One EN). A nice player.

    6. I would like to see the Oilers find a way to draft Cody Corbett. A solid all round dman.

    I like the trade for Veggie boy. On top of what has been said, big guys have value to other teams.

  131. oilersfan says:

    All you guys who hate the idea of having some toughness in the lineup arent considering something important – the opinions and feelings of the star players who get beaten up every game. Backes and Jackman were trying and succeeding in intimidating Hall and Eberle. Why do you think they barely played in the third period against St Louis? Krueger was literally protecting them. These players want toughness in the lineup. They are scared. Other meaner bigger men are threatening to hurt them. It is nice for us to philosophize about it while we lay on our couch and have a beer watching the game in hd while guys ten years older and forty pounds heavier pound the crap out of hall et al every night. Read what hall said after the st louis game ” i have never had this many bruises after a game”. The kid wants some back up. Wouldnt you?!!

  132. TheOtherJohn says:

    Ducey

    Thanks Duce for your impressions. Reinforces my views of Gernat & Oil Kings scoring/defense. No doubt Lazar will be a good winger. Moroz is good skating guy that can’t score. Brodziak scored 32 30 62 in his 19 year old year & 39 54 93 as a 20 year old on his way to being a checking centre in the NHL. Any chance Moroz scores 93 pts next year? 50 pts?

  133. "Steve Smith" says:

    oilersfan,

    The force can’t do a decent job, ’cause the kids got no respect for the law today, and blah blah blah.

  134. Ducey says:

    TheOtherJohn:
    Ducey

    Thanks Duce for your impressions. Reinforces my views of Gernat & Oil Kings scoring/defense. No doubt Lazar will be a good winger. Moroz is good skating guy that can’t score. Brodziak scored32 30 62 in his 19 year old year &39 54 93 as a 20 year old on his way to being a checking centre in the NHL. Any chance Moroz scores 93 pts next year?50 pts?

    I hear you but I think we need to look at circumstances. 3 of Moroz’s goals came on the PP this year. I would expect he gets very little PP time and likely a lot of defensive zone starts and some checking assignments against other team’s best lines. Add in uncertainty regarding TOI and lesser linemates and who knows? In the right circumstances he could get a point/ game next year in junior.

    From a tools perspective I like him. He is better than Ewanyk. He is miles and miles better than Abney.

  135. hunter1909 says:

    oilersfan: All you guys who hate the idea of having some toughness in the lineup arent considering something important – the opinions and feelings of the star players who get beaten up every game.

    I suspect most of the pacifists grew up listening to the endless procession of Dave Hodge types who love preaching liberalist “awareness” under the guise of talking ice hockey.

    Most of them have probably never been in many(if any) real fights, particularly with larger opponents. Most will have grown up playing video games, safe from those bad boys outdoors who prey on them at school etc. They no doubt think the anti-bullying movement is a wonderful improvement on the horrible old-fashioned method of teaching your kid to stand up for him/herself, instead of the declining civilization-teaching it’s kids to run to authority figures like so many docile, helpless, overgrown infants.

    So, hockey, no matter how violent can instead be “cleaned up”, as if there was something wrong with the sport to start with. They imagine a father David Bauer ideal, where both sides ice 18 Dave Keons who skate beautifully around the ice, with minimal body contact. Then, after the games everyone goes home to read tomorrow’s instructions from the Inner party.

    In short they’re well-meaning idiots, who don’t understand how to make women laugh.

  136. McSorely Head says:

    hunter1909,

    Has someone started a Don Cherry parody on this forum?

  137. hunter1909 says:

    McSorely Head,

    It’s late.

  138. fifthcartel says:

    Our forward prospect depth is pretty atrocious right now. Rieder may have been small but he was at least scoring, but I’m thinking he didn’t want to sign, or at least that’s what I’m going to tell myself to better rationalize this trade.

  139. Woodguy says:

    TheOtherJohn:Sight unseen WG the day you see Kale Kessy in the NHL and think he reminds you of Fernando Pisani, simply post that thought here & I will buy you a bottle of 12 year old Scotch. Pisani is one of the smartest players that ever played for he Oilers and suspect Kessy will remind no one of Pisani

    You must have missed this part of my post:

    I have no illusions that Kessy can be a Pisani type, but the point is that the bottom of the roster is best filled with size and ability, not just ability

    Its when they fill the bottom of the NHL roster with size and no ability that we can bitch with gusto..

  140. russ99 says:

    It’s a good bet that a skill team will win the cup this year, likely Chicago, Anaheim, or Pittsburgh.

    So can Oilers brass stop trying to copycat the Bruins, Devils and Preds, especially on moves that won’t affect the NHL roster in 3-4 years?

  141. bookje says:

    hunter1909: I suspect most of the pacifists grew up listening to the endless procession ofDave Hodge types who love preaching liberalist “awareness” under the guise of talking ice hockey.

    Most of them have probably never been in many(if any) real fights, particularly with larger opponents. Most will have grown up playing video games, safe from those bad boys outdoors who prey on them at school etc. They no doubt think the anti-bullying movement is a wonderful improvement on the horrible old-fashioned method of teaching your kid to stand up for him/herself, instead of the declining civilization-teaching it’s kids to run to authority figures like so many docile, helpless, overgrown infants.

    So, hockey, no matter how violent can instead be “cleaned up”, as if there was something wrong with the sport to start with. They imagine a father David Bauer ideal, where both sides ice 18 Dave Keons who skate beautifully around the ice, with minimal body contact. Then, after the games everyone goes home to read tomorrow’s instructions from the Inner party.

    In short they’re well-meaning idiots, who don’t understand how to make women laugh.

    I used to fight a lot. It was part of the culture I grew up in. It was a stupid culture and I am glad that much of society has moved on to a more civilized state. While I support notions of ‘standing up for oneself’ I am very glad that there is an anti bullying movement. Bullying is one of those things that our culture used to condone. It shouldn’t .

    Fighting in hockey is done. The game is better without it. Those who don’t understand that are living in a past era and romanticize an imaginary time when players ‘respected’ one another. It never existed.

  142. godot10 says:

    fifthcartel:
    Our forward prospect depth is pretty atrocious right now. Rieder may have been small but he was at least scoring, but I’m thinking he didn’t want to sign, or at least that’s what I’m going to tell myself to better rationalize this trade.

    That is NOT the way Rieder would look at it. There are much quicker routes for Rieder to the NHL than through Edmonton. Phoenix is one of them. I expect Rieder’s agent did the research, gave the Oilers a list of teams, and said sorry, it isn’t you, but we aren’t signing. These are places we would be willing to go. Otherwise we are re-entering the draft.

  143. godot10 says:

    godot10,

    Rieder is perhaps 40 AHL games away from the NHL if he signs in Phoenix. Since he can check, and is going to play for Dave Tippett in a highly structured system, he might pull a Doug Gilmour, and play out of the box.

    The Oilers are going to have Nugent-Hopkins, Gagner, Horcoff (signed for two more years), and a high 1st round drafted centre this summer.

    If I’m Rieder, I ask myself, why wait. I have the leverage RIGHT NOW to choose an organization where I can play soon over one where I probably don’t.

  144. spoiler says:

    A

    mc79hockey:
    Plus, we re-write history to make the argument more compelling like that the injury that has ruined the last two seasons of Ryan Whitney’s career was present when he came to Edmonton.

    Robin Brownlee wrote about it on the day after he was acquired!

    No, he didn’t. He wrote about a different injury. This is exactly the sort of revisionist history to which VOR refers and then you immediately go prove his point. Pretty stunning.

    Or that Eric Belanger didn’t want to be here from the time he signed.

    The objection to Belanger is more the third year than anything.And it was obviously a bad bet when the deal was signed.

    There has also been a strange meme running around that Belanger didn’t want to be here. VOR addresses it. And then you go move the goalposts. Why?

    Besides, Belanger would not have signed here without the 3rd yr. He has kids, it was important to him.

    And he was signed because the GM’s coach was begging for a vet FO centre… He’s one of the few players on the team +0 or better by the way.

    Again you are proving VOR’s general point and I don’t understand why.

    Or that somehow the Oilers’ management should have known Ben Eager would suffer a serious concussion in training camp.

    Ben Eager once got a concussion without knowing how he got it and had a lengthy history of concussions.This shouldn’t be surprised.

    VOR should have framed this more accurately for the nit-pickers: Or that Oiler mgmt should’ve known Eager would get a serious enough concussion in training camp that it would change the way he plays.

    The problem isn’t bloggers with hindsight.It’s a fanbase with a short memory.

    I guess we know now this statement is wrong.

    The problem with the the blogosphere is and always has been the fact that it is agenda-based… as your response so clearly shows. That will never change I expect.

    Most conversation is agenda-based anyway, so that’s not a huge knock on the blogosphere and the advantage out here is that many opinions can be expressed and one can pick and choose among the available narratives what one wants to believe.

    And, apparently, how bitter one wants to be about one’s entertainment focus.

  145. supernova says:

    TheOtherJohn,

    My point was don’t expect “lucic” expect something far less, but if he makes the show even as a 4 th liner it will be a success. The caveat being if one of them turn out to be more than a 4th liner/ AHL guy, all oiler fans will say where is our second one.

    Advance stats on junior players outside the top 10 to 15 are meaningless. Especially with players with size.

    Where did clarkson get drafted? David Backes must have out kicked their coverage. Glencross, Wayne Simmonds.

    The list isn’t deep and nearly all of them are way beyond their projected metrics. You can’t project the value size + scoring+ real intimadation bring.

  146. VOR says:

    Hey Spoiler,

    Thanks. I was just about to say the same thing.

    Whitney has said his doctor maintains the career threatening injury had nothing to do with his foot deformities. He stepped in a rut on terrible ice (which we could argue is management’s fault) and suffered a freak injury. In order to flog management the accepted position has become that Whitney already had the injury when he arrived here – ignoring he was having a Norris Trophy season when he stepped in the rut. MC79 is not only making my point but also demonstrating that even the best of bloggers get caught beating their own tin drum from time to time rather than describing the music of the spheres.

  147. supernova says:

    oilersfan,

    Agreed completely it is obvious if you truly watch the game at forget advanced stats.

  148. VOR says:

    Not to pick on MC79 but he also points out another problem with we Oilers’ fans. We don’t always fact check our statements. He nicely states another growing meme, that Eager was damaged goods when he got here. if we don’t posit that then we have to admit that the management team got just a little unlucky with Eager’s signing.

    As it happens there is a new paper out in the March issue of Neurology talking about the care and handling of concussions and concussion like symptoms. It is by Giza, Kutcher and Ashwal and is available for free online. They are summarizing the new recommendations in the field. Anyone who wants to speculate on what Oilers management should have made of the two previous concussions Eager had before he signed with the Oilers might want to read it. I get it as saying aside from long term cognitive impairment any one concussion is maximally predictive of another up to ten days post injury. From there each case with each player should be taken as unique from a treatment and return to play perspective. So unless Eager had symptoms of permanent cognitive impairment at his medical with the Oilers management could not predict the Tupilov hit and its consequences for Eager’s career.

    It is great to believe Oilers’ management should be all seeing and all knowing but perhaps it is a little unfair given how flawed we poor mortals be.

  149. jp says:

    hunter1909: Yes. How dare they stop small skilled forwards from being valued over big tough prospects, because…

    Maybe they like the idea of oiler’s eventually having some players that can actually help the young stars? Maybe another “small skilled forward’ simply isn’t going to cut it?

    Or, should they continue to find more smurfs, even this one who obviously hasn’t signed a contract and therefore is about to walk free from the clutches of Steve Tambellini’s Flying Circus?

    My main point was whether we have any evidence that Rieder didn’t want to sign in Edm. I’ve not seen any – please enlighten me if I’ve missed it. The idea that he doesn’t want to sign makes some sense but is just speculation as far as I know. The deadline to sign 2011 picks is June 1st, so he’s not “about to walk free”.

    This trade was made either:
    1) because the Oilers knew Rieder wouldn’t sign and got anything they could for him, or
    2) because the Oilers like Kessy better than Rieder.

    My guess is it’s the latter. This means, from what I can tell, the Oilers got the worse player in the deal. I don’t disagree that the Oilers could use more size/physicality in their lineup, but imo they just traded a guy with a 5% chance of becoming a 3rd liner for a guy with a 5% chance of being a 4th liner.

    The issue with the Oilers search for Coke machines is the lack of hockey playing ability many of these guys have. “Big” and “tough” are great, but on their own aren’t enough. The scoring totals of Kessy (or Moroz, Ewanyk, etc) suggest most likely an AHL/ECHL player, and an NHL 4th liner if everything breaks right. Virtually zero chance of a top 9 player. The issue is not a love of small players, it’s an aversion to players who can’t play hockey well.

  150. ashley says:

    VOR:

    Plus, we re-write history to make the argument more compelling like that the injury that has ruined the last two seasons of Ryan Whitney’s career was present when he came to Edmonton.

    All of Whitney’s current problems are related to a developmental foot deformity that is particularly vexing for athletes. There is no doubt.

    Also, Whitney’s chronic foot problems were well known in the hockey community. If I knew about it, the Oilers should have known about it.

    The team doctors were not even consulted prior to the trade as it happened very fast minutes before the deadline. According to information I received at the time, the Oilers had a trade set up with WSH for Vis (who wanted out), but it fell apart. I also heard that ANA offered their first round pick (which turned into Fowler) and a prospect, but Lowe insisted on a roster defenceman.

    Failed due diligence resulted in the surrender of a high quality puck moving defenceman for a player that very few organizations would have paid more than a second round draft pick for.

  151. godot10 says:

    jp: My main point was whether we have any evidence that Rieder didn’t want to sign in Edm. I’ve not seen any – please enlighten me if I’ve missed it. The idea that he doesn’t want to sign makes some sense but is just speculation as far as I know. The deadline to sign 2011 picks is June 1st, so he’s not “about to walk free”.

    This trade was made either:
    1) because the Oilers knew Rieder wouldn’t sign and got anything they could for him, or
    2) because the Oilers like Kessy better than Rieder.

    My guess is it’s the latter. This means, from what I can tell, the Oilers got the worse player in the deal. I don’t disagree that the Oilers could use more size/physicality in their lineup, but imo they just traded a guy with a 5% chance of becoming a 3rd liner for a guy with a 5% chance of being a 4th liner.

    A smart agent and a decent organization will handle these situations discreetly to avoid bad publicity on all sides. Doing it well before the deadline is one of the ways of keeping it discreet.

    The simplest explanation (Occam’s Razor) is that Rieder did not want to sign with Edmonton, and provided a list of teams he would be willing to be traded to, so Edmonton could get some value for him, and Rieder could go to an organization where his prospect for an early NHL career were better.

    There is no logical reason for Edmonton to trade him otherwise. The Oilers are deep in forwards at the NHL level, but not at the AHL level.

    An overperforming late round European draft pick with an European out has leverage against an NHL team. When you know you hold a losing hand, you cut your losses as quickly as possible. You don’t wait for the turn card out of spite and stupidity.

    Anaheim lost Justin Schultz even though they wanted him. In this case, Rieder, not the Oilers, had the leverage. If Rieder were to handpick an organization where he could maximize his chances of advancing to the NHL quickly, Phoenix is one of those organizations.

  152. jp says:

    godot10: A smart agent and a decent organization will handle these situations discreetly to avoid bad publicity on all sides.Doing it well before the deadline is one of the ways of keeping it discreet.

    The simplest explanation (Occam’s Razor)is that Rieder did not want to sign with Edmonton, and provided a list of teams he would be willing to be traded to, so Edmonton could get some value for him, and Rieder could go to an organization where his prospect for an early NHL career were better.

    There is no logical reason for Edmonton to trade him otherwise.The Oilers are deep in forwards at the NHL level, but not at the AHL level.

    An overperforming late round European draft pick with an European out has leverage against an NHL team.When you know you hold a losing hand, you cut your losses as quickly as possible.You don’t wait for the turn card out of spite and stupidity.

    Anaheim lost Justin Schultz even though they wanted him.In this case, Rieder, not the Oilers, had the leverage.If Rieder were to handpick an organization where he could maximize his chances of advancing to the NHL quickly, Phoenix is one of those organizations.

    Well, there was no logical reason to draft Abney in the 3rd round either, but they did.

    As I said, Rieder wanting out of the org is certainly plausible, but the simplest (or at least equally simple) explanation for the trade is that the Oilers think Kessy has a better chance of contributing in the future than Rieder. Based on their drafting and trading history, I don’t see why we’d assume they were forced into trading Rieder. I don’t disagree that it’s possible though.

  153. oilswell says:

    Marc: Statistically speaking, 1 in 4 second round picks play 200 games in the NHL in any capacity, and this falls to 1 in 8players picked in the third round or later.So for the Oilers to find a single big fourth line player they really need to pick five or six guys over a few drafts – which is exactly what they’ve done.

    A great point, but this very trade suggests a different way also: pick a skill player and trade him for muscle that is trending well. Not saying Kessy’s that guy, just suggesting that it should be worth trading value in a player for reduction in risk, turning 1 in 8 into 1 in 3.

  154. gcw_rocks says:

    Kris11,

    You are so right on this. Sure, Reider was a long shot, but if he hits his full potential, he will be an effective third line winger who can play some centre, play a solid two-way game, contribute secondary scoring, and can kill penalties (something he is already supposed to excel at). Those players are incredibly valuable to championship teams. And if you have to draft 10 Reiders to get the one that hits, its a decent investment.

    On the other hand, NHL ready Kesseys can be had for 5th to 7th round picks at your whim (unless you are Lowe and Tambo, in which case they cost a 4th round pick) and they don’t consume a contract slot until you need them. Actually investing development time and a contract slot in these guys is about a stupid as it gets. Trading a skilled player for one is even stupider.

    What worries me about the current run is that if the Oilers make the playoffs, there will not be a house cleaning and we will continue to make these absolutely moronic trades and draft selections.

  155. VOR says:

    Ashley, No offence but prove it. Prove there is no doubt that when Whitney stuck his skate in that rut his congenital foot deformities had anything to do with the tendon slipping out of the notch, Give us one study, one reputable source for your pronouncement. As for the rest I will take your word for it. However, if you can not prove the first statement of no doubt the second is irrelevant. Your certainty about the first issue raises red flags, especially given the fact the doctor who did the surgery to replace the tendon has said neither the deformities nor the earlier surgeries contributed to the tendon injury. I can see you might disagree and be able to make an argument for it but expecting me or anyone else to take your word for it is not close to enough to convince me and simply serves to validate my point about management bashing.

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