WOULD YOU DO?

Would you deal #7  for Jake Gardiner and #21? A nice writeup on him here.

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112 Responses to "WOULD YOU DO?"

  1. Wes Mantooth-11 says:

    Yes……..Hell yes!

  2. yegCopywriter says:

    Without question. In a deep draft year with no sure thing after about the first 4 picks, you take the sure thing in Gardiner and hope a gem remains at 21. Gardiner would be a fantastic addition to our young cluster in an area of need and he can contribute now—not in a few years from now like #7 would.

  3. B_Oilers says:

    Yes I would. Wasn’t he Schultz’s partner in the minors? Or am I thinking of another guy

  4. B_Oilers says:

    Maybe Lazar is still available at #21, I thought the Oilers were pretty high on him. Plus MacT said something about there being plenty of guys he was high on in this draft

  5. Doug McLachlan says:

    Umm, yes. I will take the bird in hand plus the lotto ticket for the higher lotto ticket.

    Is the point of the exercise, LT, to replace Gardiner with any bona fide NHL top pairing d-man (or top-six forward) and expect a different answer?

  6. jonrmcleod says:

    I think I probably would.

  7. kelevra says:

    No way the leafs do that, would be shocked if MacT pulls that off..Id happily accept Jake and their 2nd

  8. Young Oil says:

    In a second. What do you think we could throw in to somehow get Frattin and/or the rights to MacArthur?

  9. Captain Obvious says:

    Of course. The question is whether you would trade the #7, Schultz, and another pick or prospect. The answer to that question is still yes.

  10. Lowetide says:

    Doug McLachlan:
    Umm, yes. I will take the bird in hand plus the lotto ticket for the higher lotto ticket.

    Is the point of the exercise, LT, to replace Gardiner with any bona fide NHL top pairing d-man (or top-six forward) and expect a different answer?

    No, I’m asking because imo it makes a lot of sense for both teams. Leafs get a quality player (my guess is a center) and the Oilers improve their top 4D.

  11. Kris11 says:

    No. Gardiner doesn’t look that great to me. A bit small and weak. Good offensively but no sign of greatness. Not sure how good he is as a two-way player, really.

    I’d trade for Gardiner with something, but not down,

    IMO, the 7th could (people go off the board in drafts which drop the best prospects, see Couturier) net you any of: Barkov, Nicushkin, Lindholm, or Monahan. That is a way better prospect than at 21, IMO.

    Here’s a thought experiment: would you trade 7th for Gardiner and a second?

  12. speeds says:

    I would do it, provided no one I really liked slid to 7. Not likely, but you don’t have to see that many drafts to know that it’s possible.

  13. Woodguy says:

    You do it and it’s not close.

    I have a hard time believing that Gardiner and the 21st is available for the 7th.

  14. spoiler says:

    6:05 pm…. LET’S GET IT ON!!!!!!!*

    *There has to be at least 15 more minutes of pre-game ceremonial bullshit to come.

  15. Kris11 says:

    I am in the minorty, apparently.

  16. bendelson says:

    That’s not a tough decision, regardless of what Kris says….

  17. Lowetide says:

    Woodguy:
    You do it and it’s not close.

    I have a hard time believing that Gardiner and the 21st is available for the 7th.

    Probably isn’t, but it’s an interesting trade.

  18. sliderule says:

    No no no.

    Jake Gardiner is not a good fit .he is six. foot two and 185 lbs same as Schultz .You can only have one defender under 190 lbs if you want to play in WC .

    Number 21 picks since 2005.only one player has played more than 99 games and that’s Tukka Rask a great pick but so far the only real player out of eight picks that looks good.The last pick Jankowski Flames 2012 .Maybe pick is jinxed as the last time we used it was Nash.

    Number seven picks are a different story.You have solid NHLers like Okposo ,Voracek,Wilson and young stars like Skinner and Kadri.Five out of eight and still waiting on Schiefle and Dumba the two more recent.

    So if you are happy picking up a one dimensional defender along with magic beans with a low percent jinxed pick against a good percent chance of getting maybe a Kadri or Skinner go for it.

  19. skinny65 says:

    I’d do that deal even for Gardiner and the leafs 2nd round pick.

  20. Lois Lowe says:

    You do that trade every time if you’re Edmonton, but why would you do that trade if you’re Toronto? I guess there’s a chance they have Nichushkin at the top of their board (they did have Morgan Reilly as their #1OV), but I just don’t see the upside to trading him for the Leafs unless it’s because Reilly’s ready to take those minutes next season.

  21. Young Oil says:

    Lowetide,

    We would probably need to throw in something else that can guarantee to help Toronto now. Maybe the 7th, Gagner, and Rajala for the 21st, Gardiner, and Frattin? Then make a Petry+21st for Couturier to gain back center depth? Would that make us a better team, or be a lateral move?

  22. B.C.B says:

    I would do the deal with Toronto in a heart beat, and then I would looking to trade the late round pick for more help before I sat back down. If the Oilers are lucky they are going to develop this pick into an NHL play in about three years: maybe a year early or late, but also maybe never. The Oilers suck so bad that they need more help than might be possible in a single off season. The late first round pick in a deap draft, should be able to get a decent RFA winger on the craziness of draft day.

    Cal Clutterbuck is an RFA that is making $ 1.7 million, with a 1.4 million dollar cap hit this year—likely looking for a 2 or 3 year contract between 2.5-3 million dollars, minimum. The Wild only have 8 million in cap space with Clutterbuck, Cullen, Backstrom, & Spurgeon, (or their replacements) to sign. With no 1st round pick in this years deep draft, he is the most likely player to get flipped for a draft pick, a la Troy Brower in 2011

    Cal Clutterbuck 25 years old (6 pro seasons, 346 gp, 62-48-110, 337 pim)
    Last season boxcars: 47 GP, 4 G, 6 A, 10 Pts, 27 PIM, -5, 155 “hits”
    13:14 TOI/G (1:37 SH TOI/G, the rest even strength)

    He should be able to replace many (but not all) of Hemsky’s even strength minutes, and chip in on the PK. His game is aggressive, and he can skate. He is not huge (5’11” 213lbs), but is aggressive, hits, and can skate. Might be able to pinch-in on the second line for a shift here or there / short injury, because he has more skill than a Coke Machine.

    Would people do a trade like this?

    Edmonton:
    Jake Gardiner
    Cal Clutterbuck
    Toronto
    #7 overall pick
    Minnesota
    #20 overall pick

  23. theres oil in virginia says:

    He is small, but everywhere I look (including the article LT linked) they talk about his skating ensuring that he will have an NHL career. The only question seems to be at what level (replacement, elite, in-between). My guess is surely above replacement.

    I can’t see how the Leafs let him go for simply swapping 1st rounders. I don’t think they are even looking to trade him. I think the answers above pretty much prove that it’ll take more. When both sides are smarting a little after the trade is done, then it’s about right.

    Someone previously floated:
    Horcoff + Marincin + 7th OV
    -for-
    Gardiner + 21st OV

    What about that one?

  24. Captain Obvious says:

    sliderule:
    No no no.

    Jake Gardiner is not a good fit .he is six. foot two and 185 lbs same as Schultz .You can only have one defender under 190 lbs if you want to play in WC .

    I can’t tell if this is satire or not.

    Gardiner is a top four Dman right now with considerable upside. Trading the #7 for him straight up would be a great trade for the Oilers. The only interesting question is how much more than the #7 would you trade for him.

  25. bendelson says:

    Kris11,

    you mentioned a thought experiment…

    You have the #21st pick. Will you trade the pick plus Justin Schultz for my #7?

  26. Captain Happy says:

    sliderule:
    No no no.

    Jake Gardiner is not a good fit .he is six. foot two and 185 lbs same as Schultz .You can only have one defender under 190 lbs if you want to play in WC .

    Number 21 picks since 2005.only one player has played more than 99games and that’s Tukka Rask a great pick but so far the only real player out of eight picks that looks good.The last pick Jankowski Flames 2012 .Maybe pick is jinxed as the last time we used it was Nash.

    Number seven picks are a different story.You have solid NHLers like Okposo ,Voracek,Wilsonand young stars like Skinner and Kadri.Five out of eight and still waiting on Schiefle and Dumba the two more recent.

    So if you are happy picking up a one dimensional defender along with magic beans with a low percent jinxed pick against a good percent chance ofgetting maybe a Kadri or Skinner go for it.

    Gardiner is not “one dimensional”.

    He was sent back to the Marlies to learn how to play D and was under the tutelage of Dallas Eakins.

    While he still has some developing to do, the kid is only 22 and managed to put up 1G and 5P in the NHL playoffs against the Boston Bruins.

    The notion that Toronto would trade him for the 7th AND throw in a draft pick is ridiculous.

    The Leafs got JVR out of Philly for Luke Schenn.

    If they want to move Gardiner for a centre, they’ll trade him to Philly for Couturier.

  27. theres oil in virginia says:

    bendelson:
    Kris11,

    you mentioned a thought experiment…

    You have the #21st pick.Will you trade the pick plus Justin Schultz for my #7?

    If you trade Justin Schultz (without him requesting it), no one else in that situation will sign in Edmonton for a long time.

  28. Lowetide says:

    Captain Obvious: I can’t tell if this is satire or not.

    Gardiner is a top four Dman right now with considerable upside. Trading the #7 for him straight up would be a great trade for the Oilers.The only interesting question is how much more than the #7 would you trade for him.

    #7 AND something for Gardiner? No. Not a chance.

  29. theres oil in virginia says:

    bendelson,

    Sorry. I see I didn’t read that closely enough. I see the comparison you’re making.

  30. Maverick says:

    I wrote it yesterday and I will write it again today;

    7th overall for Gardiner and the 21st, and drafting Rychel at 21. Nice first few hours of the draft for the Oilers, if they’re getting Gardiner and Rychel.

    Would I do it? Yes Sir!

    However, after yesterdays many comments may have to throw something into the deal for Toronto, maybe a prospect or something.

    People from Toronto are forgetting they have a better Gardiner waiting in the wings…..Morgan Reilly. Not suggestion the Oilers ask for him cause he is at least 2 years away.

  31. FastOil says:

    Kris I’m with you. I like offense but am not into chaos D. I also have concerns about his build and puck battles against a quality opponent. Gardiners been sheltered and the Oilers don’t have the depth or vets to shelter him given Klefbom will play nearly for sure unless he can’t and Belov is new as well. I’d take McDonagh however.

  32. sliderule says:

    Captain Happy,

    You guys are too funny.

    Have you even watched Gardener.He would be booed out of Edmonton in one season.

    Hits no one is weak in puck battles.

    Too funny.

  33. Maverick says:

    Captain Happy: Gardiner is not “one dimensional”.

    He was sent back to the Marlies to learn how to play D and was under the tutelage of Dallas Eakins.

    While he still has some developing to do, the kid is only 22 and managed to put up 1G and 5P in the NHL playoffs against the Boston Bruins.

    The notion that Toronto would trade him for the 7th AND throw in a draft pick is ridiculous.

    The Leafs got JVR out of Philly for Luke Schenn.

    If they want to move Gardiner for a centre, they’ll trade him to Philly for Couturier.

    Captain Happy or is it Captain Sad, which ever,
    Trading Gardiner for Couturier? Nope Toronto would need to add something, straight up Gardiner isn’t enough.

  34. theres oil in virginia says:

    Lowetide: #7 AND something for Gardiner? No. Not a chance.

    That’s a pretty tight gradient between people jumping on your initial suggestion as a great deal, and this flat out refusal of something extra along with 7. Do you equate Gardiner’s value to roughly the #7? Do the Leafs make that deal? I can’t see how they would do that.

  35. Lowetide says:

    theres oil in virginia: That’s a pretty tight gradient between people jumping on your initial suggestion as a great deal, and this flat out refusal of something extra along with 7.Do you equate Gardiner’s value to roughly the #7?Do the Leafs make that deal?I can’t see how they would do that.

    The initial question I asked was ‘would you trade #7 for Gardiner and #21′ which is a mile and a half from #7 and something for Gardiner. If the Leafs value Gardiner that highly, I pass on the opportunity. jmo.

  36. Captain Happy says:

    sliderule:
    Captain Happy,

    You guys are too funny.

    Have you even watched Gardener.He would be booed out of Edmonton in one season.

    Hits no one is weak in puck battles.

    Too funny.

    I watched every Leaf game this past season and a few Marlies games to boot.

    Gardiner is still a work in progress but has a wide range of skills including elite skating and hockey sense.

    Did you watch Justin Schultz in the last half of the season?

    He was a disaster.

  37. theres oil in virginia says:

    Lowetide: If the Leafs value Gardiner that highly, I pass on the opportunity. jmo.

    Well, that’s what I was looking for. The other question I have is, assuming the Oilers could get Gardiner, whether Smid-Petry could be an adequate 1st pairing to shelter Gardiner + ? on the 2nd pairing.

  38. Captain Happy says:

    Looks like the end is nigh in Arizona:

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=425325

  39. theres oil in virginia says:

    sliderule,

    Definitely that’s the downside of Gardiner. Although, I recall Smid (and Gilbert) looking pretty awful just a couple of years ago. I was ready to give up on both those guys. Young defensemen take time to come around to the defensive side of the game, but when they do…

  40. sliderule says:

    Captain Happy,

    You ate right about Schultz as a defender.

    The difference he has big time offensive upside.

    Gardener doesn’t have the same upside but has the chaos.

    The oil if they want to get better can’t have two guys like that..

    I am sorry I just don’t see top four for Gardiner for at least a few seasons .

  41. vesci says:

    If you change the player coming back to Shattenkirk or Del Zotto does it change anyone’s opinion? Would the 7th straight up for either of these two make sense?

  42. Lowetide says:

    theres oil in virginia: Well, that’s what I was looking for.The other question I have is, assuming the Oilers could get Gardiner, whether Smid-Petry could be an adequate 1st pairing to shelter Gardiner + ? on the 2nd pairing.

    They have to imo. Gardiner is an excellent young defender but there’s no way that he’s going to be able to handle the big minutes next season.

  43. Jordan says:

    Kris11,

    I agree Kris – I’m also in the minority, but I’m a gambling man. I’d rather take a risk on a 1st/2nd line forward in the top ten than trade for a 2-8 Dman (depending on whether he hits his potential) and a later 1st who may also turn out or not, but likely has a lower ceiling.

    If my scouts are telling me to trade down because the guy we want will be available, then sure – I just don’t believe that will be the message from Stu at the end of June.

    Realistically, if this team has both Gardiner & Schultz on the blueline this year… Klefbom hopefully would be in the minors, and would likely spend most of the year there. Otherwise we’d have 3 almost rookie d-men + Petry who’s got a year + and Belov who’s never played NA hockey.

    Sounds like one of the greenest D’s in the NHL. Could be great, but could also be a train wreck.

    Highly doubt MacT would risk that much – if he’s trading 7, it’s for more than Gardiner. Either that, or it’s as part of a larger deal, which I don’t want to speculate on at this time.

  44. nelson88 says:

    Captain Happy,

    Based on some of your comments from last nights thread. Curious as to who you think has more value. Justin Schultz or Gardiner?

  45. Captain Happy says:

    nelson88:
    Captain Happy,

    Based on some of your comments from last nights thread. Curious as to who you think has more value. Justin Schultz or Gardiner?

    In the long run, Schultz by a little.

    But Gardiner is ahead of the curve at the moment.

    Would you trade Justin Schultz for the 7th pick AND throw in the 21st?

    Didn’t think so.

  46. nelson88 says:

    Streit at $6M/year? Over 35; still no way to bury the contract other than compliance buyout? no thanks!

  47. Captain Happy says:

    sliderule:
    Captain Happy,

    You ate right about Schultz as a defender.

    The difference he has big time offensive upside.

    Gardener doesn’t have the same upside but has the chaos.

    The oil if they want to get better can’t have two guys like that..

    I am sorry I just don’t see top four for Gardiner for at least a few seasons .

    Oh, good grief.

    Gardiner played the second most minutes among Leaf defensemen in the playoffs (23:01/G) and his ice time was being apportioned by Randy Carlyle who knows his defensemen and doesn’t like to play youngsters.

    Gardiner is already a top 4 defenseman and he’s only 22.

  48. spoiler says:

    vesci:
    If you change the player coming back to Shattenkirk or Del Zotto does it change anyone’s opinion?Would the 7th straight up for either of these two make sense?

    I was thinking about the same players after reading the post.

    While LT’s trade proposal is interesting, I’m not sure Gardiner is the right type of player the Oilers should be seeking. It’s nice he has the past history with Schultz, but I’m thinking the Oil need more of a Seabrook type to go with Schultz. Huddy. Someone who can play in his own like Sgt Schultz, but who brings a little more offense and puck skill.

    I would also prefer to add a more veteran player than what Schultz represents.

    So for me not Gardiner, Shattenkirk or Del Zotto.

    I think the 7th can be put to better use. Either as part of a package for a can do-it-all defenseman like OEL or Pietrangelo… or for a Bogo or someone similar who can be Seabrook to PFC Schultz’s Keith.

  49. theres oil in virginia says:

    Lowetide,
    It’s possible that I’m undervaluing the #7 pick. I remember the 90s. I still have the scars: Hulbig, Bonsignore, Kelly, “The Swiss Miss”. I know it’s not the same group that’s drafting now, but it doesn’t seem like it was that long ago.

  50. sliderule says:

    Captain Happy,

    We will see how top four he is when he plays a full season

  51. spoiler says:

    I do think though out of Shattenkirk, Del Zotto and Gardiner,St. Louis and NYR are far more motivated than the Leafs to make a deal due to cap issues.

    And hell, if you can use the 7th to get McDonagh, you move heaven and earth to get it done.

  52. Captain Happy says:

    sliderule:
    Captain Happy,

    We will see how top four he is when he plays a full season

    In his rookie season, 2011/12:

    Phaneuf – 25:17
    Gunnarsson – 21:42
    Gardiner – 21:35
    Liles – 21:20
    Komisarek – 16:39
    Franson – 16:11

    Looks like top 4 to me.

    In his second season:

    Phaneuf – 25:10
    Kosta 22:04
    Gunnarsson – 21:16
    Gardiner 20:28
    Franson 18:47
    Liles – 18:46
    Holzer – 18:30
    Fraser – 16:57

    Looks like top 4 to me.

    Did I mention he’s only 22?

  53. Woodguy says:

    sliderule:
    Captain Happy,

    We will see how top four he is when he plays a full season

    A full season of Gardiner?

    You mean like his 75gp rookie season where he was named to the All Rookie team?

    Where he was 3rd on TOR in TOI/gm?

    Dion Phaneuf 25:17:00
    Carl Gunnarsson 21:42:00
    Jake Gardiner 21:35:00
    John-Michael Liles 21:20:00
    Mike Komisarek 16:39:00
    Cody Franson 16:11:00
    Keith Aulie 16:07:00
    Luke Schenn 16:02:00

    Where he was 2nd among Leaf Dmen in shot differential and only 1 of 2 TOR Dmen to be in the positive?

    CODYFRANSON 2.8
    JAKEGARDINER 0.28
    DIONPHANEUF -0.36
    JOHN-MICHAELLILES -0.86
    CARLGUNNARSSON -3.17
    LUKESCHENN -7.38
    MICHAELKOMISAREK -7.72
    JAYROSEHILL -13.13

    Where he has the fourth toughest Corsi Quality of Comp?

    NAME Corsi Rel QoC
    CARLGUNNARSSON 1.145
    DIONPHANEUF 1.399
    JOHN-MICHAELLILES -0.192
    JAKEGARDINER -0.328
    MICHAELKOMISAREK 0.046
    LUKESCHENN -0.154
    CODYFRANSON -0.698
    JAYROSEHILL -2.308

    Where 10 of his 16 most common line mates (every player with over 100min TOI together) had a better shot differential with him than without him?

    SCHENN, LUKE 46.5 47.6 -1.1
    KESSEL, PHIL 51.3 48.3 3
    BOZAK, TYLER 47.4 47.6 -0.2
    GRABOVSKI, MIKHAIL 59.2 51.2 8
    LUPUL, JOFFREY 51.4 47.1 4.3
    MACARTHUR, CLARKE 55.7 49.4 6.3
    LOMBARDI, MATTHEW 42.3 48.8 -6.5
    CONNOLLY, TIM 46 48.7 -2.7
    FRANSON, CODY 53.6 50.1 3.5
    KULEMIN, NIKOLAI 55.3 49.6 5.7
    FRATTIN, MATT 49.4 48.3 1.1
    CRABB, JOEY 48.6 48.3 0.3
    STECKEL, DAVID 47.7 48.6 -0.9
    SCRIVENS, BEN 46 49.8 -3.8
    PHANEUF, DION 60.9 48.5 12.4
    BROWN, MIKE 47.1 47.6 -0.5

    Is this the full season you can’t wait to see?

  54. prairieschooner says:

    If we can’t get the centre we want what about Darnell Nurse and bolster the blue line with blue collar Dmen on short contracts until Nurse and Kleffbom and even Justin is ready to run the show.
    They say Nurse has a mean streak we could call him Betty

  55. sliderule says:

    Woodguy,

    Yep

  56. spoiler says:

    Woodguy: A full season of Gardiner?

    You mean like his 75gp rookie season where he was named to the All Rookie team?

    Where he was 3rd on TOR in TOI/gm?

    Dion Phaneuf25:17:00
    Carl Gunnarsson21:42:00
    Jake Gardiner21:35:00
    John-Michael Liles21:20:00
    Mike Komisarek16:39:00
    Cody Franson16:11:00
    Keith Aulie16:07:00
    Luke Schenn16:02:00

    Where he was 2nd among Leaf Dmen in shot differential and only 1 of 2 TOR Dmen to be in the positive?

    CODYFRANSON2.8
    JAKEGARDINER0.28
    DIONPHANEUF-0.36
    JOHN-MICHAELLILES-0.86
    CARLGUNNARSSON-3.17
    LUKESCHENN-7.38
    MICHAELKOMISAREK-7.72
    JAYROSEHILL-13.13

    Where he has the fourth toughest Corsi Quality of Comp?

    NAMECorsi Rel QoC
    CARLGUNNARSSON1.145
    DIONPHANEUF1.399
    JOHN-MICHAELLILES-0.192
    JAKEGARDINER-0.328
    MICHAELKOMISAREK0.046
    LUKESCHENN-0.154
    CODYFRANSON-0.698
    JAYROSEHILL-2.308

    Where 10 of his 16 most common line mates (every player with over 100min TOI together) had a better shot differential with him than without him?

    SCHENN, LUKE46.547.6-1.1
    KESSEL, PHIL51.348.33
    BOZAK, TYLER47.447.6-0.2
    GRABOVSKI, MIKHAIL59.251.28
    LUPUL, JOFFREY51.447.14.3
    MACARTHUR, CLARKE55.749.46.3
    LOMBARDI, MATTHEW42.348.8-6.5
    CONNOLLY, TIM4648.7-2.7
    FRANSON, CODY53.650.13.5
    KULEMIN, NIKOLAI55.349.65.7
    FRATTIN, MATT49.448.31.1
    CRABB, JOEY48.648.30.3
    STECKEL, DAVID47.748.6-0.9
    SCRIVENS, BEN4649.8-3.8
    PHANEUF, DION60.948.512.4
    BROWN, MIKE47.147.6-0.5

    Is this the full season you can’t wait to see?

    That looks like the 6th toughest QUALCOMP based on the numbers you posted, WG.

  57. Thiru says:

    There’s no way Toronto bites on a deal like that. I’m not even sure if they would do it for the #7 straight up.

    Gardiner was practically annointed as a top-pairing dman by the T.O. media AND by his teammates in their first round series versus the Bruins. Lupul was particularly bullish on his play, likening him to Neidermeyer (Scott, not Rob).

    I think you’d have to put Gagner’s name on the table for Nonis to even take a sniff.

  58. sliderule says:

    LT
    Your next should be number 7 for Krug and Bruins second rounder.

    If you like Gardiner you have got to like Krug

  59. oilgreg says:

    Lowetide,
    You ask what is really a very simple question. The answer is simply this;
    “Who gets the best player?”

    The 21st pick can not be part of the primary decision making.

    If we look at Gardiner, what we have here is a defenceman that was drafted 17th overall in 2008. Today, he is a guy who played the previous season, as a 22 year-old, in the minors. While it can be debated whether he should have been in the AHL, the fact is his parent NHL team determined it was better with him not on it.
    I am sure that as a 23 year-old, he will be on the NHL team.

    With the 2013 draft, we have what is rated as the best group of eligible players since 2003. The player drafted #7 that year was Ryan Suter. Drafted in the 8th to 20th spots were eight guys who would today be considered quality players, seven of whom were impact players at the age of 22.

    So, building a team to win, knowing that winning is based primarily on the team with the grouping of ‘best players,’ the answer is:
    draft.

  60. Captain Happy says:

    sliderule:
    LT
    Your next should be number 7 for Krug and Bruins second rounder.

    If you like Gardiner you have got to like Krug

    Torey Krug is 5’9″ and 180.

    He’s having a “Pisani” but he’s a smurf.

  61. Gerta Rauss says:

    I’d do the deal, but then call 911 immediately after, because Nonis would have to have incurred head trauma to make that deal.

  62. sliderule says:

    oilgreg,

    Clap clap clap.

    Well said.

  63. Gerta Rauss says:

    would you….?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izBbP2kro-c

    and yes, that’s Molly Ringwald

  64. sliderule says:

    Captain Happy,

    It’s height and weight.

    If you have ever been hit by a guy who is krugs size you will know the difference

  65. Captain Happy says:

    sliderule:
    Captain Happy,

    It’s height and weight.

    If you have ever been hit by a guy who is krugs size you will know the difference

    I have.

    I’m 6’2″ 240.

    Pfffttt.

  66. spoiler says:

    And Seabrook nearly MABs Crawford out of the series.

  67. Lowetide says:

    sliderule:
    LT
    Your next should be number 7 for Krug and Bruins second rounder.

    If you like Gardiner you have got to like Krug

    I have no idea what you’re getting at with this, sliderule. We clearly have different views on the value in this player, but I don’t think there’s a hockey fan alive that would make the connection you’ve made between these two players.

    Is this somehow reducing the value of Gardiner? the value of my opinion? It’s baffling.

  68. Woodguy says:

    spoiler: That looks like the 6th toughest QUALCOMP based on the numbers you posted, WG.

    Weird.

    Must have done something transferring it to the spreadsheet.

    Here it is again:
    NAME Corsi QoC
    CARLGUNNARSSON 1.154
    DIONPHANEUF 1.049
    JOHN-MICHAELLILES 0.094
    JAKEGARDINER -0.243
    MICHAELKOMISAREK -0.342
    LUKESCHENN -0.391
    CODYFRANSON -1.279
    JAYROSEHILL -1.381

  69. Woodguy says:

    sliderule:
    Woodguy,

    Yep

    Glad that you admitted the error of your opinion.

  70. sliderule says:

    Lowetide,

    What I was trying to say that Gardiner is still an unknown quantity despite the ice time or whatever with the Leaves. He had a very good playoff but he has just over a season with them.Not enough viewings.

    Krug is a free agent pick who has had a very good playoff.Stats in AHL and college were similar to Gardiner.

    The seventh pick can be special and in a draft that is supposed to be strong it looks like you can get an outstanding player.

    I am sorry if I don’t agree with the consensus posting I don’t think Gardiner is proven enough .

  71. Lowetide says:

    sliderule: No worries, agreement is boring. :-) I do think we disagree about the level of proof in regard to Gardiner, but I can see your point of view in that regard.

  72. theres oil in virginia says:

    sliderule,

    I think there’s anything but a consensus here on Gardiner’s value.

  73. mustang says:

    I wouldn’t do it, I like the top 8 better than Gardner. J.Schultz is a better version of him anyway, if we are trading the pick I would want a centre like Couturier or a more established dman like Seabrook and add whatever within reason.

  74. Woodguy says:

    oilgreg,

    If we look at Gardiner, what we have here is a defenceman that was drafted 17th overall in 2008. Today, he is a guy who played the previous season, as a 22 year-old, in the minors. While it can be debated whether he should have been in the AHL, the fact is his parent NHL team determined it was better with him not on it.

    If we look at Gardiner today, he was an NHL all rookie who played top 4 minutes his rookie year.

    By the time Carlyle took his head out of his ass and played Gardiner he was top this year too.


    With the 2013 draft, we have what is rated as the best group of eligible players since 2003. The player drafted #7 that year was Ryan Suter. Drafted in the 8th to 20th spots were eight guys who would today be considered quality players, seven of whom were impact players at the age of 22.

    Two things

    1) Why does the #7 this year equal Suter? Why doesn’t he equal the #4 from 2003 in Zherdev or the #8 in Colburn?

    The happy accident that the #7 in the draft year that 2013 is most compared to was Suter doesn’t make the #7 this year another Suter. Can easily be another “whoever” Its the draft, futures are not written in stone, and you *know* what Gardiner is and have a chance to get another decent player at #21. Hell, they might luck out and get a 2003 #24 in Mike Richards.

    Would you rather have #4 from 2003 or #24?

    Hindsight is 20/20, especially in regards to the draft.

    That being said, I trade up for Barkov in a heartbeat if I have a choice between that and the Gardiner trade.

    2) You might get lucky and get a player who can contribute at 22 like you said. The only problem is that Hall only has 2 years left before he’s a UFA at that time.

    Oilers need players now.

    Window is open now.

    Now that v4.2 isn’t here throwing away draft picks they Oilers have lots of time to accumulate young players over the next few years and keep the pipeline full.

    Hell, they might get lucky like NAS did with the #49 in 2003 in Weber

    Or they might get somewhat unlucky like NAS did with the #37 in 2003 with Klein.

  75. Woodguy says:

    sliderule,

    What I was trying to say that Gardiner is still an unknown quantity despite the ice time or whatever with the Leaves. He had a very good playoff but he has just over a season with them.Not enough viewings.

    If you ignore his NHL all rookie year.

  76. jp says:

    Jordan:
    Kris11,

    I agree Kris – I’m also in the minority, but I’m a gambling man.I’d rather take a risk on a 1st/2nd line forward in the top ten than trade for a 2-8 Dman (depending on whether he hits his potential) and a later 1st who may also turn out or not, but likely has a lower ceiling.

    If my scouts are telling me to trade down because the guy we want will be available, then sure – I just don’t believe that will be the message from Stu at the end of June.

    Realistically, if this team has both Gardiner & Schultz on the blueline this year… Klefbom hopefully would be in the minors, and would likely spend most of the year there.Otherwise we’d have 3 almost rookie d-men + Petry who’s got a year + and Belov who’s never played NA hockey.

    Sounds like one of the greenest D’s in the NHL.Could be great, but could also be a train wreck.

    Highly doubt MacT would risk that much – if he’s trading 7, it’s for more than Gardiner.Either that, or it’s as part of a larger deal, which I don’t want to speculate on at this time.

    #7 for Gardiner and #21 would be a good trade for the Oilers imo. Whether or not the Leafs would do that deal is a completely different issue, but If it was available I’d do that deal in a heartbeat.

    That the Oilers D would be ‘green’ if Gardiner was in the top 4 next season has very little bearing on the trade though. If the Oilers win the deal (which I think they would) then they should do it. If Gardiner has to spend another year in the AHL before being ready for top 4 minutes I’d still do the deal. Playoffs are the goal next season (as they have been for a few years now), but unless this thing falls completely apart then Gardiner’s value in 2, 3, 4 years is far more important.

    sliderule:
    No no no.

    Jake Gardiner is not a good fit .he is six. foot two and 185 lbs same as Schultz .You can only have one defender under 190 lbs if you want to play in WC .

    Number 21 picks since 2005.only one player has played more than 99games and that’s Tukka Rask a great pick but so far the only real player out of eight picks that looks good.The last pick Jankowski Flames 2012 .Maybe pick is jinxed as the last time we used it was Nash.

    Number seven picks are a different story.You have solid NHLers like Okposo ,Voracek,Wilsonand young stars like Skinner and Kadri.Five out of eight and still waiting on Schiefle and Dumba the two more recent.

    So if you are happy picking up a one dimensional defender along with magic beans with a low percent jinxed pick against a good percent chance ofgetting maybe a Kadri or Skinner go for it.

    Maybe it is a case of “unlucky 21″, but # 22 produced Eberle, Pacioretty and Giroux over the same period. There’s still quality available at that stage of the draft.

  77. sliderule says:

    Captain Happy,

    I am six foot two and 220 and when I played football my toughest hits were guys that were low and heavy..
    I never said pfft.

  78. theres oil in virginia says:

    I say:
    Gardiner >> #7 pick

    What say you?
    Gardiner >> #7
    Gardiner > #7
    Gardiner == #7
    Gardiner < #7
    Gardiner << #7

  79. sliderule says:

    theres oil in virginia,

    I don’t think a Gardiner or our Schultz is worth a number seven in a great draft.

  80. Ducey says:

    Darnell Nurse > Gardiner.

    In three years I think the Oilers really regret that trade. Especially as Gardiner gives them another softer finesse player.

    The only reason you make the trade is impatience. Not a good excuse.

  81. mustang says:

    Ducey:
    Darnell Nurse > Gardiner.

    In three years I think the Oilers really regret that trade.Especially as Gardiner gives them another softer finesse player.

    The only reason you make the trade is impatience.Not a good excuse.

    Ducey I agree 110% with you, last thing we need is a small soft Gardner. Nurse I think is going to be a beauty in a few years.

  82. Rondo says:

    Ducey,

    Have you read this article on Nurse?

    http://ohlprospects.blogspot.ca/2013/05/my-final-top-50-ohl-players-for-2013_27.html

    “Offensively, he’s very solid and there’s massive room for growth in that department. He played on the second powerplay unit because the Hounds had two of the best (including the CHL d-man of the year) running the top unit, which got 75% of the time. When he’s on the first unit next year, his stat line will jump.”

  83. Woodguy says:

    Ducey: The only reason you make the trade is impatience. Not a good excuse.

    At the end of their careers Nurse may be better than Gardiner, we don’t know.

    I think we can say with greater probability that Gardiner will be better than Nurse for the next 4 years.

    Dmen, even good ones take a while to develop.

    The Doughty’s of the NHL are rare exceptions, not the rule.

    Oilers have a 7 year window before the uncertainty of Hall’s FA year, Eberle is UFA in 6years.

    You can’t afford to wait for over half of that hoping a pick will contribute, even a pick as good as Nurse.

    You can’t afford to be patient with glaring Tambellini sized holes on the roster and a very good core of forwards ready to play now.

  84. wheatnoil says:

    sliderule:
    theres oil in virginia,

    I don’t think a Gardiner or our Schultz is worth a number seven in a great draft.

    The problem here, of course, is that we don’t really know that. Gardiner is a known quantity. The draft pick at #7 is an unknown entity. It could be anyone from Nichushkin to Monahan to Lindholm to Nurse to any number of other players and all of those players are themselves unknown entities RELATIVE to Gardiner, who himself is an unknown entity relative to a veteran NHLer.

    The argument going on here is based partly on how good Gardiner is today, partly on how good he may become tomorrow, but also how high each of us value the uncertain potential of the #7 pick. One viewpoint is that this is a deep draft, thus the #7 pick is worth more than a typical year, but we don’t know that for sure until at least 5 years down the road. The #7 pick could be a Hall of Famer. The #7 pick could never suit up for an NHL game in his life.

    Of course, no trade happens until the #6 pick is called. Then everyone knows who’s left on the board. At that point, you’ve got to make a call as to whether the guy you’d pick at 7 is worth the risk. I suspect that MacT, impatient man that he is, will go for the known quantity over the unknown in that situation, if the known quantity is Gardiner or equivalent. Gardiner is the safer pick and the one that you can project onto the roster now or close to now. The #7 pick you can’t project onto the roster for 2-5 years, and even then it’s a maybe.

    In my opinion, THIS year, given MacT wants to be impatient and bring NHL players in now, it’s a potential opportunity to grab a young NHLer with a lower risk of crashing out and a much greater chance of adding real value to the team next year. THIS year, I go with Gardiner. Perhaps in a different year, when the roster is either more strong/stable or if it’s so terribly poor that they’re not going to challenge for the playoffs anyways, maybe in that year I take the draft pick and cross my fingers for a home run. Keep in mind though, that if the Oilers draft a defenseman and he follows the same development curve as Gardiner thus far… I would actually call that a reasonably successful draft pick at #7 (at an equivalent point in his career).

  85. theres oil in virginia says:

    Woodguy,

    I’m counting that as: Gardiner > #7. Fair?

  86. mustang says:

    Off topic here but does anyone know how often the winner of game one goes on to win the cup?

  87. Jordan says:

    Woodguy: At the end of their careers Nurse may be better than Gardiner, we don’t know.

    I think we can say with greater probability that Gardiner will be better than Nurse for the next 4 years.

    Dmen, even good ones take a while to develop.

    The Doughty’s of the NHL are rare exceptions, not the rule.

    Oilers have a 7 year window before the uncertainty of Hall’s FA year, Eberle is UFA in 6years.

    You can’t afford to wait for over half of that hoping a pick will contribute, even a pick as good as Nurse.

    You can’t afford to be patient with glaring Tambellini sized holes on the roster and a very good core of forwards ready to play now.

    I appreciate that this team needs a lot of help really fast to go from playoff contender to cup favourite.

    But, for this baby to have sustain, you NEED to have HIGH END talent coming on board just as you get REALLY GOOD, when you really need those value contracts to offset the large contracts at the top end of the roster, and thereby ensure you have quality depth throughout the lineup.

    You get those by keeping top 10 picks, and filling the roster with smart pickups and quality vets, so that as the vets fail or get traded over the next couple of years, there is cheap quality in those picks coming up to fill out the roster and produce a cup contender.

    Trading the #7 for Gardiner is counter productive – he’s got one season of quality and one season in the minors with a good playoff run in the bigs. His D is questionable, and his O is going to get him a big contract.

    You don’t trade those picks for that guy. It’s bad business.

    Remember 2 years ago when we were talking about wasting the ELCs of Hall, RNH, Yak… Well guess what? They have a lot of value – if you use them intelligently. The same could be true for a Lazar, a Monahan, a Barkov (maybe most for him, because he can keep developing in Europe, and pushing back his ELC).

    And this doesn’t even get into the fact that Tambellini isn’t filling those holes anymore – MacT is. And judging on what he’s done so far… the man knows what needs doing and does it. So… Straw man?

  88. Racki says:

    I say we look at St. Louis Blues and take the #7 pick + Petry and try and ship him off for Alex Pietrangelo. With him about to get a raise, and them being a lower cap team, maybe they’d do that deal. I’ve been overly obsessed with Pietrangelo for a while.. I just think he has the makings of a superb d-man. I think we could really serve this team well to find our next Pronger (minus the skipping town part).

    I’d consider deals like that with this pick, as a package, to try and land a stud d-man or big C that we’re looking for. It might not quite have the value we’re hoping for though, so you might have to add one of our farm forwards in there too or something to sweeten the deal… or add in a player like Hemsky, and take salary back in the form of a player that addresses a need such as a 2nd pairing LHD, or some depth forwards, or something to that effect.

    I think moving #7 for Gardiner would be aiming our sights a little too low. Good offensive minded d-man, but I’d give up a chunk more and try and land a complete D-man. Easier said than done, but perhaps danging Petry and some prospects with that pick would make teams listen.

    Pietrangelo might be a long shot though, cause sounds like St. Louis will match any RFA offer sheets.. so they’re serious about him. But there are others out there like Zack Bogo, perhaps..

  89. VOR says:

    I can argue it both ways. I think Gardiner is a fine young defenceman part of the way through his development cycle. He is likely to be a fine 3/4 for a lot of years. He is much closer to a sure thing than all but a few kids in the draft. One of those kids, Curtis Lazar, is likely to be available when we pick (I am not making this up – Lazar is considered a certainty to have an NHL career because of his non-stop motor and all round tool kit). So by trading down you get a D who is likely to play a lot of minutes this year for the Oilers and a kid who might well make the team next year (Lazar – or for that matter Rychel).

    On the other hand this is a deep draft and maybe there is someone great available at #7. The Ryan Suter comment above is interesting. Yes, he was drafted at 7 in 2003 and that was a great pick. However, lets say your scouting staff was good at their job, and if they aren’t what makes you think they can get #7 correct, and that staff had picked the best player left at 21 OV in 2003. We could argue all day who that would be. Their are a lot of contenders. I am going to arbitrarily pick Corey Perry.

    So is Corey Perry and Jake Gardiner as a package greater or less than Ryan Suter? You decide. Just don’t assume that there won’t be great players on the board at 21 or that there isn’t a real risk of making a terrible pick at 7 this year.

    On the other hand I suspect someone will go off the board in the top five and take Samuel Morin. The Chara effect you might call it. Morin is a giant, his play is progressing rapidly, and he was phenomenal at the combine. A project certainly but one that if it pays off might give you a D not unlike Chara. A decade from now we will know if that was a smart move, not five years.

    If somebody makes that sort of bold move then a closer to consensus player will be available at 7 and consensus while not perfect increases you odds and makes that pick more valuable. But as somebody said above you won’t know until the 6th OV is announced if the top people left are the ones you think can help immediately. I’d say it is entirely possible that both teams would be crazy to make the trade or both teams could end up looking great or almost anywhere in between.

  90. sliderule says:

    Racki,

    I would do that as to me pietrangelo is elite and like fine wine matured.

    He would match up well with our young forwards

  91. FastOil says:

    I’d rather have a solid 30 point D than a chaos 60 point D in the playoffs against teams like the Bruins.

    How about the 7th for overpaid Lucic? Gagner would do well with him.

  92. Rondo says:

    VOR,

    I’m dizzy

  93. oilgreg says:

    Woodguy,

    Would you rather have #4 from 2003 or #24?
    Hindsight is 20/20, especially in regards to the draft.
    That being said, I trade up for Barkov in a heartbeat if I have a choice between that and the Gardiner trade.

    Right, Hindsight is 20/20, but looking over the history of the draft, you get a much better player at #4 than #24. For that matter, you get a much better play at #7 than at #21. And, you get a much better player at #4 than at #7.

    So, lets agree to stick with whichever movement gets us the best player, historically.

  94. Ducey says:

    Woodguy: At the end of their careers Nurse may be better than Gardiner, we don’t know.

    I think we can say with greater probability that Gardiner will be better than Nurse for the next 4 years.

    Dmen, even good ones take a while to develop.

    The Doughty’s of the NHL are rare exceptions, not the rule.

    Oilers have a 7 year window before the uncertainty of Hall’s FA year, Eberle is UFA in 6years.

    You can’t afford to wait for over half of that hoping a pick will contribute, even a pick as good as Nurse.

    You can’t afford to be patient with glaring Tambellini sized holes on the roster and a very good core of forwards ready to play now.

    Nurse will likely make the NHL in 2 yrs and hopefully become useful in 4. You are right there.

    But the Oilers need to look ahead to continue to bring in very good players. Trading a future stud so you can make the playoffs for a few yrs might sound ok now. But once the Oilers try and make the next step to contender, they will need guys like Nurse.

  95. Captain Happy says:

    mustang:
    Off topic here but does anyone know how often the winner of game one goes on to win the cup?

    76%

  96. Captain Happy says:

    sliderule:
    Captain Happy,

    I am six foot two and 220 and when I played football mytoughest hits were guys that were low and heavy..
    I never said pfft.

    When i played football (and basketball), I learned how to use my knees and elbows to make sure they never came back for more.

  97. Captain Obvious says:

    I would like you all to bookmark this thread. Gardiner is a top flight NHL defenseman today. In one year half we can revisit this and half of you can eat crow. Trading for Gardiner would be the trade of the decade.

    As to the comparison with Nurse he has as much greater chance being mediocre like Schenn and Reinhardt than he has of being half as good as Gardiner.

  98. LMHF#1 says:

    I’d rather sign Paul Ranger, then move the 7 plus 2 players for a top flight center or defenceman.

  99. Lowetide says:

    Classic game one. wow.

  100. LMHF#1 says:

    FastOil:
    I’d rather have a solid 30 point D than a chaos 60 point D in the playoffs against teams like the Bruins.

    This 60 point animal you speak of does not exist.

  101. RMGS says:

    What a first game.

    Also, NBC shines compared to the kitschy CBC production.

  102. Rondo says:

    Lowetide,

    Hossa is a great player

  103. mustang says:

    Thanks captain, I searched but couldn’t find it.

  104. godot10 says:

    The better option is just to offer sheet Gunnarsson at the high 2nd round draft pick compensation level (around $3 million per season).

    I’d prefer #7 + Gunnarsson for the cost of surrendering a 2014 2nd round draft pick.

  105. hags9k says:

    No I don’t do that deal. In 3 years Nichushkin could be supernova. In 3 years Gardiner could be a good #3D. I don’t think Gardiner and maybe Lazaar is enough. Why all the rush to deal the pick in a deep draft year? Isnt that exactly stupid? Pick a C at 7 and smile. Trade the # 7 pick in a shallow draft! Geez.

  106. MrSmitty says:

    I still think we need to gun for Floridas pick at #2 or Tampas at #3 if florida takes Drouin. And we should try to move heaven and earth to get it. I also am a fan for gunning for petrangelo as well if the trade for the #2 isn’t there. And lastly, if all that fails I am for drafting Nicushkin at #7. Drafting D this early in the draft is just too risky imho.

  107. Woodguy says:

    theres oil in virginia:
    Woodguy,

    I’m counting that as: Gardiner > #7.Fair?

    Gardiner + 21 >#7 for the next 4 year, maybe for the careers of all 3

  108. Woodguy says:

    oilgreg:
    Woodguy,

    Would you rather have #4 from 2003 or #24?
    Hindsight is 20/20, especially in regards to the draft.
    That being said, I trade up for Barkov in a heartbeat if I have a choice between that and the Gardiner trade.

    Right, Hindsight is 20/20, but looking over the history of the draft, you get a much better player at #4 than #24. For that matter, you get a much better play at #7 than at #21.And, you get a much better player at #4 than at #7.

    So, lets agree to stick with whichever movement gets us the best player, historically.

    Well, we know who the better player is historically.

    The one who already has shown they can play at a high level in the NHL.

    Gardiner.

  109. Woodguy says:

    Jordan: I appreciate that this team needs a lot of help really fast to go from playoff contender to cup favourite.

    But, for this baby to have sustain, you NEED to have HIGH END talent coming on board just as you get REALLY GOOD, when you really need those value contracts to offset the large contracts at the top end of the roster, and thereby ensure you have quality depth throughout the lineup.

    You get those by keeping top 10 picks, and filling the roster with smart pickups and quality vets, so that as the vets fail or get traded over the next couple of years, there is cheap quality in those picks coming up to fill out the roster and produce a cup contender.

    Trading the #7 for Gardiner is counter productive – he’s got one season of quality and one season in the minors with a good playoff run in the bigs.His D is questionable, and his O is going to get him a big contract.

    You don’t trade those picks for that guy.It’s bad business.

    Remember 2 years ago when we were talking about wasting the ELCs of Hall, RNH, Yak… Well guess what?They have a lot of value – if you use them intelligently.The same could be true for a Lazar, a Monahan, a Barkov (maybe most for him, because he can keep developing in Europe, and pushing back his ELC).

    And this doesn’t even get into the fact that Tambellini isn’t filling those holes anymore – MacT is.And judging on what he’s done so far… the man knows what needs doing and does it.So… Straw man?

    If they don’t solve their D probably ASAP the sustain is of being out of the playoffs.

    This may be the last high draft pick (top 10) that the Oilers get for a while (if they fix their holes), so I get not wanting to trade it.

    The still get 7 picks a year to fill up the pipe to sustain.

    Look at what’s sustaining CHI after they had to get rid of many of their good young players to keep under the cap (after the Tallon’s offer sheet screw up).

    They are being sustained by draft picks. They don’t have to top 10 to be good, especially if you have a good development system.

    The Oilers need NHL quality players today.

    Trading the #7 doesn’t mean their entire development system collapses.

    Maybe the miss on a good NHL down the road, but if you get Gardiner and #21 back, that’s a very easy gamble that fits today’s need with Gardiner and tomorrow’s pipeline with #21, albeit with less probability of #21 being as good as #7, but you get real NHL player still on his ELC back.

  110. russ99 says:

    If we want the rebuild to take 2-3 years longer, sure deal a quality asset for another unfinished product at D.

    Too much is made with Gardiner and Schultz playing together, they’re the same kind of defenseman, and we don’t want to stall things by having too many young developing players. We need a mix, youth and experience, skill and toughness.

    What we really need is a big, experienced, tough minute-eating defenseman, akin to the kind of games Keith and Chara put in last night. Those players are hard to come by, and I just don’t see Gardiner being that kind of player.

  111. Truth says:

    Woodguy:
    sliderule,

    If you ignore his NHL all rookie year.

    I know I’m late to the party. Other All-Rookie D-men in the last 10 years that I would value less than #7 OV in this draft: Tom Gilbert, M E Vlasic, Matt Carle, Andre Meszaros, J M Liles, Joni Pitkanen, Luke Schenn, and Justin Faulk.

    I know this isn’t the question being asked but would you do Tyler Myers for #7 OV? I’m sure Buffalo would love back to back picks and Myers and his contract have not been too popular lately in Buf. He was also a member of the All-Rookie team.

  112. gcw_rocks says:

    Truth,

    I think I would be more interested in Myers than Gardiner. I get the desire to trade this pick for immediate help, but I am not convinced Gardiner is the answer for this particular defence. I am going to spend the 7th overall pick this year, I am pursuing Kulikov, Larsson, Myers, Bogosian, and then Gardiner, I think..

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