A FEW CRUSTY BITCHES AND A HANDFUL OF RAG TAGS

Number 11 is Mark Messier. Of all the factors that have turned the Oilers around in the last few weeks, none has been more important than Mark’s decision to apply himself. The reckless abandon of the early months had now turned into a controlled fury on the ice, and in many games he has been the Oilers most exciting player.

He kills penalties and adds zest to the powerplay. Although he has been converted from centre to left wing on Matti (Hagman’s) line (with Glenn Anderson), Sather still sends him out for crucial faceoffs. It is a favorite play for Sather to send him out with veteran center Stan Weir, then have Stan deliberately mix it up with the opposing center, get waved off and then hand the faceoff duties to the kid.

No one knows for sure what has turned Messier around, although it appears more than coincidence that he began his new dedicated approach at about the same time as his cousin (Donny Murdoch) was banished to the minors. So many of the other youngsters take their moods from him that there are those who believe he will one day be the captain of the Oilers.

Peter Gzowski, “The Game of Our Lives” McLelland and Stewart 1981.

The Oilers find themselves trying to answer a question they’ve had since trading Messier: where are the big men who can play with skill and play the role of enforcer? They’ve had that player only a precious few times since Messier (the last one was Guerin in my opinion).

 azorcan

The Oilers now have their two best natural centers hurt (Nuge, Gags) and their best player out of position to replace them. Him. It’s confusing. There’s talk that Jordan Eberle might step in and play center during the first month of the season, and, incredibly, I’m not prepared to call this ridiculous. A depth chart with Ebs in the middle make a lot of sense artistically:

  • Hall-Smyth-Hemsky
  • Eberle-Perron-Yakupov
  • Gordon-Joenssu-Jones
  • Acton-R Hamilton-Brown
  • Lander, Omark

I’m actually okay with the lines this way, and would like to point out that C has a lot of talent considering Ryan Nugent-Hopkins and Sam Gagner aren’t in the lineup. This team has so much talent it’s silly. I’ll have a GDT up at 5pm today, and it’ll be heavy on the Omark because he could be important.

GangsOfNewYork_1

I don’t like injuries to the Oilers best players any more than the next guy, but it’s becoming more and more difficult to agree with a major portion of the fanbase about the importance of enforcers. Enforcers don’t work, they really don’t. If you’re talking about “John Ferguson Montreal Canadiens winger” enforcer then I have all kinds of time for it, because he played a regular shift and protected Jean Beliveau (Beliveau was no shrinking violet btw).

If you’re talking “Steve MacIntyre Edmonton Oilers winger” then I don’t believe that’s helping win hockey games or keeping the best players from getting run/injured. Enforcers are used to “react” to events, or “set the tone” or “change momentum” and they also don’t do any of those things. But what they really don’t do is stop “next time” and that’s what you want as a hockey club. John Scott may have created havoc (Randy Carlyle made a major tactical error and David Clarkson lost the ability to reason) but he sure as hell didn’t help his team for next time.

Let me ask you something: do you think Cal Clutterbuck worries about Steve MacIntyre? What about Taylor Hall? What about taking another stupid penalty and getting his team in a goals against hole? Cal Clutterbuck never worries about Steve MacIntyre because they’re never on the ice together–and when they are, for those few seconds–all he has to do is laugh and taunt until the moment ends or MacIntyre does something stupid and gets his team in a goals against hole.

The modern enforcer issue baffles me, and the smart coaches don’t use one. Why? Roster spots are too important, and the worst actual hockey player in the system is still 25 miles better as a player than an enforcer. The rules have changed, the word is out, the solution is clear: score powerplay goals. And if one of your skill players goes a half bubble off plumb on Cal Clutterbuck one night?

Look shocked, stare at the clock and wait until the moment passes.

enforcer  Oilers

 

A couple of things about the Gagner injury: looks like 6-8 weeks (he got a “break” in that he doesn’t have to have his mouth wired shut) to recover and that takes us to November. I suspect the Oilers have had a timeline in mind for RNH (assuming he found his way to the doctor’s office since TC began) and we may hear about it today or tomorrow.

Another item: I have been a little surprised in the reaction toward MacT. Center is an issue now because the top two centermen are hurt–that’s a major issue for any team–but am also surprised that few have been critical of management in regard to addressing center. It’s the one spot on the roster that was thin going in and there was already the #1C hurt. I’m a MacT guy but for me a TC invite for one of the available centers would have been good business. I suspect we’ll see someone airlifted in this week via trade or waiver.

Finally, the enforcer issue as described by McKenzie above. This is an excellent test for new management: they’ve spent the summer talking about possession stats, and now they are apparently in pursuit of a “super heavyweight” addition. I think we’ll see the club acquire a big hockey player who can also fight and be a physical element, and not an enforcer strictly.

There’s been iron in the words of MacT and Eakins all summer long. They’ve backed them up with actions so far, I have no  reason to expect anything different today. We wait.

LOWDOWN AT LOWETIDE

GangsOfNewYork_126

Busy morning on the show, 10am on Team 1260. Scheduled to appear:

  • Tyler Dellow from mc79 hockey. We’ll talk Gagner injury, Kassian suspension and blocking shots.
  • Eric Rodgers will talk OKC Barons. New players like Oscar Klefbom on their way south.
  • Rob Vollman from ESPN and Hockey Prospectus. We’ll talk Gagner injury, expectations for the season and biggest off-season moves.
  • Kirk Luedeke from Redline Report and New England Hockey Journal. Bruins, Eastern Conference and possible Calder winners.

10-1260 via text and Lowetide_ on twitter.

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203 Responses to "A FEW CRUSTY BITCHES AND A HANDFUL OF RAG TAGS"

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  1. stevezie says:

    I don’t think anything proves the connection between fighters and injuries better than Marc Savard getting killed with Chara, Lucic and Thornton on his team. Whatever fighting does, it does not stop professionals from doing their jobs.

    Yes the instigator is a factor, but I do not yearn for a return to the Flyers jumping people.

  2. B S says:

    I wouldn’t worry about anything Bob Mackenzie says right now. Almost always, when he’s talking about Western Conference teams he’s spouting the popular opinion as if it is fact.

    Oilers got beat up last night. Oilers have a small, skilled (and therefore wussy, because it’s 0 sum of course) team. Therefore common sports analyst sense (and a look at past Oiler aquisitions) dictates that the Oil must look for a goon. In Mackenzie’s tiny simplistic mind this makes it fact.

  3. theres oil in virginia says:

    When tensions run high, it’s important for the older generation to maintain composure. The younger man in me wants blood. The older man wants an end to this foolishness. I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with everybody else, as well as what I posted previously. The only conclusion I can come to is that the NHL as a whole is to blame.

    Thanks for maintaining your composure LT, even though (I think) I can tell this whole thing bothers you too. I’d hate to see what’s on ON right now.

    All of this rests on the shoulders of the NHL head office. I remain skeptical that their response will be constructive (since I don’t remember that ever happening before).

  4. godot10 says:

    I’d rather go:

    Smyth, Hall, Hemsky
    Perron, Gordon, Eberle
    Jonessu, Lander/Arcobello, Yakupov
    Hamilton, Acton, Brown.

    Yakupov can carry a soft minutes line. Lander will be boring but efficient between a decent winger and a great winger. Yak’s brilliance compensattes for Lander’s weaknesses. Or alternatively, experiment between Lander and Arcobello.

  5. slopitch says:

    Man oh man. Acquiring a top 9 power forward is no small task.

    Washington isn’t gonna move Tom Wilson. Evander Kane would cost too much. Philly isn’t moving Simmonds. I’d honestly think Hartnell or Franzen is the most likely to move but I hate the contracts.

    Brendan Morrow? No. We need guys who can play. Dallas has some players of interest. So does SJ.

    Steve Ott? He’s a crowd favorite in Buffalo. With a rebuild looming (I think) they will keep him to sell seats.

    Glencross? Just made assistant. Oilers dont trade with Flames.

    I don’t mind adding a Patrick Kaleta type guy who serves as a distraction rather then a deterrent.

    Dubinsky or RJ Umberger might be a possibly. But we’re gonna have to move something useful. The price will be dear.

    Doubt you could pry Bjugstad from Florida.

    Is our first in play?

    OK I’m rambling :)

  6. Woodguy says:

    The Oilers will probably bring a tough guy in.

    I hope like hell he can play a bit.

    Given what Eakins has said about that player needing to be able to play, the pickings may be slim.

    Also,

    Bruce had a brilliant tweet about how effective enforcers are:

    Bruce McCurdy ‏@BruceMcCurdy 10m

    During SMac’s full year in #EDM, Eberle missed 13 games,Gagner 14,Hall 17 (hurt fighting!),Hemsky & Horcoff 35 each. Only 3 F reached 70 GP.

    Nuclear deterrents do nothing for a hockey team in terms of “toughness”

    Guys like Eberle, RNH, Gagner etc giving a jackass a little carbon fiber in the teeth occasionally works better imo.

    Also remember that the only thing that seemed to slow Cooke down was suspensions (once they got long enough)

    NHL can stop this shit if they choose to.

    The fact that Kassian has an in person hearing means he’s getting 6+ games.

    Hope he gets 10.

    I’v e always been in favour of a minimum number of games for vicious acts like what Kassian did, with the upper limit being suspended for the amount of time the player they hurt is on the IR.

    Put a guy out for 10 weeks, then you are out 10 weeks.

    Put a guy out for a year and you lost a year’s salary.

    That would keep this shit to minimum.

  7. Woodguy says:

    stevezie:
    I don’t think anything proves the connection between fighters and injuries better than Marc Savard getting killed with Chara, Lucic and Thornton on his team. Whatever fighting does, it does not stop professionals from doing their jobs.

    Yes the instigator is a factor, but I do not yearn for a return to the Flyers jumping people.

    I tweeted that exact thing to Spector on the weekend.

  8. Woodguy says:

    B S:
    I wouldn’t worry about anything Bob Mackenzie says right now. Almost always, when he’s talking about Western Conference teams he’s spouting the popular opinion as if it is fact.

    Oilers got beat up last night. Oilers have a small, skilled (and therefore wussy, because it’s 0 sum of course) team. Therefore common sports analyst sense (and a look at past Oiler aquisitions) dictates that the Oil must look for a goon. In Mackenzie’s tiny simplistic mind this makes it fact.

    I heard they were looking hard at a couple of “enforcer who can play” types before this weekend.

    Heavier men than Eager and Brown.

    The VAN game probably just solidified it.

  9. sliderule says:

    The enforcer is just a waste of a roster spot.

    Do like isles keep your goons in AHL and bring them up when needed.

    The NHL condones most of the attempts to injure so nothing will change.

    Take Horvats hit on Nurse.At one time what he did was called boarding.Nope just another hockey play called a good hit that was really an attempt to injure not separate Nurse from the puck

  10. RT26 says:

    Want to get rid of this thuggery on the ice? Move to Olympic sized ice sheets, and let the skilled teams skate rings around the meatheads. Won’t happen though, it would cost too much to retrofit the existing stadiums and create lost revenue from seat contraction though.

    Also, the MacArthur suspension will create salary cap havoc for Toronto. I would offer them a low rated prospect or late round draft pick for Joe Colbourne. See if he could reinforce the bottom 6 center position for a while and create some competition for Lander, Arcobello or Acton.

  11. B S says:

    Woodguy,

    I’m pretty sure that came from TSN too. I’m not doubting that MacT is looking for a mean 4th liner (hopefully a center) I mean we’ve all been expecting him to add more depth to the bottom 6, but I don’t think Mackenzie has any “inside” information on this one.

  12. maxwell_mischief says:

    unrelated: i wish Smyth would not have to take up a roster spot. Each time he’s scored in the preseason, I have cursed. He’s slow to the puck/checks, physically weak and makes some real dumb decisions. 10/10 times I would rather have Eager/Brown/Hamilton/Omark. Smyth looks like he doesn’t belong, and playing him with Hemsky and Hall is a charity case and a waste of a valuable slot in the line up, Joensuu or Perron would be better suited there, while Smyth probably serves the Oilers best surrounded by he Oilers “cheer team” signing autographs for the blue collar fans, who think he actually has sick “flow”, on the main concourse at Rexall

  13. Truth says:

    The handling of RNH is going to be interesting. MacT and management were setting themselves up to look good with the handling of his return. Clearly they have a timeline, but have been reserved about letting the media know the plan. Maybe it’s Oct. 10 and maybe it actually is Nov.1, but now any advancement of the November gameplan they have been publicly mentioning may appear to be them rushing RNH into the lineup ahead of schedule. Of course, they’ll say it was the plan all along, and it very well could have been. But how do we know?

    As a fan of old time hockey and someone who had played the game for a long time, I am of the belief that an enforcer does play a role in hockey games. I have always viewed stage fights to have little to no value to an actual hockey game. The purpose has always been to set a rank within the league’s enforcers. Every heavyweight knows the opposing heavyweight. Every heavyweight keeps tabs on the other fights in the league and who beat who. They relish the opportunity to face the other guy that hasn’t lost yet.

    An enforcer brings value to a game only when they are somewhat viable hockey players on the ice. If I was coaching the Oilers on Saturday night, immediately after the Weise hit on Hall I would have put Brown on the ice for every shift Horvat was out there. Brown would be told to hit Horvat as hard and as often as possible until someone is forced to step in and fight Brown. The Canucks then have two options; return the favor on the Oilers young stars (which was already their game plan anyway), or they will lay off. If they don’t lay off, Brown is out there the next shift continuing the abuse on Horvat. Does this have the potential to turn in to the Leafs/Sabres melee? Yes, it does. Most importantly, does this tell the Canucks coaching staff that this will happen again if the next time they play each other the gameplan is to run the Oilers young stars?

    The Oilers young stars will continue to be targeted until they show that will not lay down and take it. What has Vancouver learned from recent years? Having a deadly PP is not going to save your star players in a 4 series x 7 game playoffs.

  14. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Couple interesting non-Oiler tweets:

    Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun 1h
    And as @jprutherford says, it’s $1.5 million on the one-year deal for Morrow. Bargain for the Blues for that caliber of player
    Expand
    Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun 1h
    Brenden Morrow has agreed to a one-year deal with the St. Louis. Obvious connection there with Hitchcock/Armstrong from Dallas days…

    Gord Miller ‏@GMillerTSN 25m
    Sounds like hybrid icing is a longshot for this season, NHL board vote today will be close, and NHLPA approval isn’t guaranteed either.

    ———–
    I figure that puts Whitney on the outs? Can’t imagine there is room now.

    If hybrid icing goes down, but we get no-touch, it will be a blessing. If we go back to the status quo it will be a calamity.

  15. stevezie says:

    RT26,

    No, this doesn’t make sense. Olympic ice makes for less exciting games, and Russia is full of goons and has Olympic ice. I assume you meant Clarkson when you said MacArthur.

    Romulus Apotheosis,

    Hybrid icing is a useless compromise. SO the idea is that icing races are too exciting to get rid of, so the ref will only blow the race down if it looks close? Just bring in full np-touch. It speeds the game up so much, safety is just an added bonus.

  16. Colonel Obvious says:

    Re: Hybrid Icing

    The old boys club of the NHL can’t do anything right. This move is so obvious but these are really just this stupid and selfish.

  17. goldenchild says:

    Not going to comment on the goon talk because honestly i think 98% of people are working to hard to convince 2% of people. I’ll just say this, its dumb to have people who are bad at playing hockey on a professional hockey team. Seems basic to me.

    The depth at C was a danger all summer and it took only 4 preseason games for it to show up, Im ok with MacT and Eakins trying to solve internally short term but there has to be an actionable plan B.
    Last year I killed the former GM for sitting and doing nothing when Horc went down and the team started drowning without him. Any chance they had to make a run was lost in that month, we have a fuill season here, maybe they can get through a week or so and Nuge gets back but they cannot afford a run like last season. If Eberle at C or Perron, or some combo of Lander/Archabello doesnt work then MacT needs to move quickly. Ive liked everything this group has said and done so far, need to make sure there good work isnt wasted by sitting on their hands early.

  18. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    I stayed out of the fray yesterday and missed everything doing doings around the house.

    My takeaways: hiring an enforcer is a loser’s game trying to play justice. It’s a reactive, stupid way to damage your own team.

    I said during the nuck GDT that the nucks, esp. when icing a bunch of goons, scrubs and twerbs, make you hate hockey and crave blood. I hate that more than I hate them. I love watching the Sedins play hockey. I hate watching a twerb like Kassian play thug. It’s not hockey.

    The answer though is simple. At the team level:

    1. yes. try to find a big man that can play.

    2. no. don’t let that pursuit become a monomaniacal one. we’ve got at team here, a team with an identity. reinforce that identity and give them the best shot at winning.

    3. no. the best shot at winning with our team’s identity does not include an enforcer on the team. Roster spots are too valuable. Remember, you have to be at least marginally a threat to score.

    4. yes. the center depth is poor. was before Gagner. MacT has to act, be impatient. But this thing, this need, is unrelated to this other thing, the thing about toughness. Don’t become confused. Center depth is much more important to the success of the team than an enforcer. Don’t make Tambo’s mistake and try to claim Volpatti but ignore Hall and Jussi J. That’s the fool’s way. We’re smart now. Be smart.

    and, at the league level:

    5. The NHL needs to realize the sport is live, lively, physical and that they can sell the “these people are on the verge of death” line just fine without encouraging wholly reckless nonsense. The NHL needs to grow up and dole out some serious punishments.

  19. Kris11 says:

    If they want to replace Eager or Brown with a tougher guy, so be it. (As long as the cost isn’t dear.) If they want to add a tough guy to play in the same lineup as Eager and Brown, that is a problem. (BTW, Brown is definitely a bubble guy, no? He could go down, right?)

    You can hide one guy on the roster and give him few games and few minutes in the games he plays. And if it is just one guy, he drags down the overall Corsi and +/- of the team only a very little bit; it is probably insignificant. But if you carry two tough guys or three, your lineup has holes, the tough guys play more minutes, and the playoffs become less likely to a small but significant degree.

    The fighting debate is over, IMO. Goons don’t protect players. But even if you are on the other side of the debate, there is no point in us going through it all again.

    My solution is to hire a lunatic who will attack the other players best player by swinging his stick at his head as hard as possible, whenever the other team does anything I don’t like. When that lunatic is suspended, I will sign a new one. Maybe that works. (NB: Deterrence has to be nuclear and total to be effective. And hockey enforcers aren’t nuclear weapons so much as Scud missiles.)

  20. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    RT26: Also, the MacArthur suspension will create salary cap havoc for Toronto.

    Either I missed something or this is an interesting slip up.

  21. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Unrelated question for cba fiends:

    why did Bachman have to clear waivers? I’m guessing number of years played pro, or number of pro games or something?

  22. Dead Cat Bounce says:

    Jason Strudwick weighs in on the Oilers lack of toughness:

    http://oilersnation.com/2013/9/23/the-road-gets-a-little-bumpier

  23. RMGS says:

    “I have been a little surprised in the reaction toward MacT.”

    MacT is Teflon Man in the Oilogosphere. He’s performed very well in several areas, from hiring the new coach to revamping 40% of the line-up. But, the mistake of failing to address the big league center depth is glaring.

    What happened is something for which good teams prepare, especially when your number one center is already out. Whether or not the preparation works is always debatable, but doing nothing (or hedging your bets on AHL or college men) is negligent at best.

    I’m pissed, because the team IS talented and looks to be on the cusp of taking the next step. Having only one proven NHL natural center (and a third line center at that) in your opening line-up when you’ve had all summer to sign or trade to strengthen the position is baffling.

    At this point, playing Hall and Eberle out of position is a better option than signing leftovers or hoping AHL men can carry the load for a month or two.

    Hyperbole’s the norm for Oilers supporters, so: this could cost the team a shot at the playoffs!

  24. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Kris11: My solution is to hire a lunatic who will attack the other players best player by swinging his stick at his head as hard as possible, whenever the other team does anything I don’t like. When that lunatic is suspended, I will sign a new one. Maybe that works. (NB: Deterrence has to be nuclear and total to be effective. And hockey enforcers aren’t nuclear weapons so much as Scud missiles.)

    I won’t be watching if this is what happens. My fandom has limits.

    I’m fine with the ole’ “make myself sharp with elbows and stick butts” routine… but I stop way short of attempted murder, which this would be.

    The league needs to have stepped in long before this becomes the norm.

  25. Truth says:

    Worst case scenario if and when the Oilers get a Colton Orr is that Hall/Yakupov/Eberle/Perron get more ice time.

    An example:
    Without a heavyweight:
    Joensuu/Lander/Brown – 8:00 per night
    Eberle/Hall/Perron – 19:00 per night

    With a heavyweight:
    Joensuu/Lander – 8:00 per night
    Orr – 2:00 per night
    Eberle/Hall/Perron – 21:00 per night (each alternate shifts on 4th line)

    Is this such a bad thing, providing Orr makes a difference on the roster (I know, debatable, but ask NHL players)

  26. Colonel Obvious says:

    Kris11: My solution is to hire a lunatic who will attack the other players best player by swinging his stick at his head as hard as possible, whenever the other team does anything I don’t like. When that lunatic is suspended, I will sign a new one. Maybe that works. (NB: Deterrence has to be nuclear and total to be effective. And hockey enforcers aren’t nuclear weapons so much as Scud missiles.)

    I rather agree with this. It satisfies both sides of my personality. On the one hand, it would satisfy my need for revenge. On the other, it would expose the internal contradictions of the North American Enforcionist System. Both work for me.

    In seriousness, making Kassian or Weise pay the price is totally useless. We saw that on Saturday, Brown fought Weise before Kassian hit Gagner

  27. Colonel Obvious says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: I won’t be watching if this is what happens. My fandom has limits.

    I’m fine with the ole’ “make myself sharp with elbows and stick butts” routine… but I stop way short of attempted murder, which this would be.

    The league needs to have stepped in long before this becomes the norm.

    You are missing the genius of this. It is the only thing that will force the league to step in. When the league wants to eliminate things it does. The leaving the bench penalty is a good example. Real, vicious, vigilante justice will force the league to establish real, juridical, justice.

  28. RMGS says:

    I’m astonished that most of the Oilers player acquisition discussion is about a goon, when the team currently would ice a line-up with only one proven NHL natural center. WTF?

  29. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Colonel Obvious: You are missing the genius of this. It is the only thing that will force the league to step in.When the league wants to eliminate things it does.The leaving the bench penalty is a good example.Real, vicious, vigilante justice will force the league to establish real, juridical, justice.

    The league has proved very adept over the years of pretending the violence it curries has nothing to do with the “bad apple” events it makes an exception of. They will take no lessons from an incident like this and treat it as an isolated event.

  30. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    RMGS:
    I’m astonished that most of the Oilers player acquisition discussion is about a goon, when the team currently would ice a line-up with only one proven NHL natural center.WTF?

    Bingo!

    My thoughts exactly.

    My hope is MacT is on the same wavelength and this conversation is a hangover from the testosterone high the lower-quarters of the fan-base and media have been enjoying all weekend.

    MacT is being tested right now. Does he shop at his own store, where size must have skill, must be a threat to score? Where puck possession and depth matter?

    Or does he shop at the Tambo retail mall of wasted dreams?

  31. Zipdot says:

    slopitch: Dallas has some players of interest.

    Horcoff? We’d have to unload some salary to make it happen…

  32. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Things worth looking into in the light of day:

    Unsigned:

    Steckel: still hasn’t been signed

    Smithson: Bruce made a limited case for him early in the Summer
    http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/06/02/the-case-for-jerred-smithson/

    Reasoner: old Oil hand

    Malholtra: re-clam project?

    Uncertain status:

    Mueller: has a Euro contract… might have an out

    Thoresen: has a Euro contract… might have an out (My personal choice)

    Wellwood: has a Euro contract… might have an out

    Waiver/trade possibles/targets:

    Colbourne: in a pickle over there in TOR, may get a spot with Clarkson out

    R-Jo: reportedly on the outs with new management in the summer, could take a king’s ransom

    The Applicator: One of LT’s prime targets… may take a prize prospect and pick?

    Zack Smith: LT’s other target, If that Hemsky trade didn’t happen before, why now?

    Other choices…???

  33. Ribs says:

    So I guess Ben Eager is finished as an NHLer? Too bad, he was the kind of guy they were looking for not so many years ago.

  34. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Ribs:
    So I guess Ben Eager is finished as an NHLer? Too bad, he was the kind of guy they were looking for not so many years ago.

    He’s never really succeeded at the role and to be honest, I think he resents it. After those concussions I would too.

  35. VOR says:

    Many of the posters here might not be able to remember on of the seminal moments in hockey history.

    In the middle and late seventies hockey was dominated by the meanest, dirtiest team in the history of hockey – the Broadstreet Bullies. The Flyers, I do want to point out, were also possibly the hardest working team I have ever seen and had some real talent. However, they won by scaring the living crap out of every team they played. At the heart of the team was Dave “the Hammer” Schultz. He is probably the most feared fighter in history. Not that he always won. It was more that he never stopped coming, never stopped throwing.

    I can’t, sadly, put a date to this. I’d guess it was the 1974-1975 playoffs. The newly minted New York Islanders had spent a 4th OV on a kid who some scouts thought would never have the offence to play in the NHL. They did it because the kid had intangibles, one of which was he could really fight. Then the Islanders stuck this poor kid straight into their NHL lineup.

    You can, I imagine, predict the result. The kid turned into a pacifist. It was pretty clear he didn’t like to fight, his heart wasn’t in it. What was left was a solid checker and decent skater who could take and make a pass.

    Then came the playoffs. Some Flyer ran one of the Islanders young players. The 4th OV dropped his gloves and beat Dave Schultz so thoroughly that the Flyers had to jump in and pull the kid off the Hammer. Schultz either turtled or was unconscious on his feet. In either case he was helpless. As Moose Dupont said in the press, “the kid was going to kill him.”

    From that moment on Clark Gillies was the most feared goon in hockey. He was the Islanders enforcer, their fighter, and more. They were team tough Lord knows but the nuclear deterrent was Gillies. He was a very tall tree and the Islanders dynasty grew up underneath his protection.

    But here is the punch line. Gillies never had 100 penalty minutes in a season. He had something like 57 career fights. Yet everybody in the NHL was terrified of him. In 1980 the Boston Bruins, as dirty a team as ever suited up, had the fight taken right out of them when Gillies pulverized Terry O’Reilly not once but twice in the playoffs.

    Gillies knew when to drop them and put his whole heart and soul into when he fought but he didn’t run around the ice trying to start something. Much of the time he played like he wanted the Lady Byng. But from time to time he annihilated someone, and invariably they deserved it. Gillies could hit like Raffi Torres but back then that was legal. He had a well earned reputation for waiting months or even years for the moment when he evened things up. But then he made it count. The other teams goons were really reluctant to give him a reason to come after them.

    What I am trying to say is if the Oilers want to run Clark Gillies (or as LT said, John Ferguson) out there as a goon every night I am all for it. If they want to run Steve MacIntyre I think it is just a waste of a roster spot. It is the difference between a Hall of Famer and a footnote in hockey’s long history. So I think those posters who are recommending a goon be deployed should say what goon they think could play on our first line and actually be effective as both a deterrent and a talent?

  36. Jordan says:

    This whole situation would be resolved if the NHL justice system worked like this:

    You injure a player, you’re suspended until they return to play. If they never return, I hope you enjoyed your career.

    It’s that simple. You hurt someone, you’re out. No more Knee-on-Knee, no more elbows or head shots, no spears, no more trying to run someone’s head through the boards. Because if you injure the player, you’re gone.

    And while you’re suspended, you eat up a roster spot on the team, and all your earnings go to the player assistance fund.

    Penalizes teams with goons, eliminates the need to level fines or define suspension lengths, and takes out most of the bullshit that gets in the way of a great game.

    Just hockey.

    Of course, it will never catch on – the wheel of justice is far too entertaining to give up!

  37. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    I think we need to pause and acknowledge that Klefbom was sent down.

    Nurse is still hanging around. But sending Klef down was a good confirmation of what we’ve been hearing from MacT on the player.

  38. RMGS says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    Other choices…???

    I put out Connolly’s name in another thread, but someone pointed out that he played for Eakins last year (after being waived by the Leafs for cap reasons, mostly) and put in a mediocre boxcar performance.

  39. Dead Cat Bounce says:

    Ryan Rishaug ‏@TSNRyanRishaug 1m
    Oil claim Mcintyre

  40. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    MacT goes the Tambo route:

    Follow

    Ryan RishaugVerified account
    ‏@TSNRyanRishaug
    Oil claim Mcintyre

  41. justDOit says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    I think we need to pause and acknowledge that Klefbom was sent down.

    Nurse is still hanging around. But sending Klef down was a good confirmation of what we’ve been hearing from MacT on the player.

    Jeez, for a moment there, I thought he had been PUT down – Ole Yeller style.

    As for the suggestion of the Oilers to get a Gillies in the lineup, I’m all for it. Now all they need to do is find one of those guys…

  42. Colonel Obvious says:

    VOR,

    Well the Oilers just claimed MacIntyre so there you go. First major error of the MacT regime. MacIntyre makes Scott look like a hockey player.

  43. justDOit says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    MacT goes the Tambo route:

    Follow

    Ryan RishaugVerified account
    ‏@TSNRyanRishaug
    Oil claim Mcintyre

    Alright – I’m going to close my eyes, think of something nice and serene, and then read that again…. CRAP! It STILL reads that the Oilers have claimed McIntyre. Sheesh. Maybe he can center Eager and Brown?

    As the kids say: #downtotheirlevel

  44. bookje says:

    I’m ok with Macintyre if it’s just for the preseason.

  45. Ribs says:

    Well, if they were looking to pick up a guy to pummel people, they got the best one out there.

  46. LMHF#1 says:

    VOR:

    What I am trying to say is if the Oilers want to run Clark Gillies (or as LT said, John Ferguson) out there as a goon every night I am all for it. If they want to run Steve MacIntyre I think it is just a waste of a roster spot. It is the difference between a Hall of Famer and a footnote in hockey’s long history. So I think those posters who are recommending a goon be deployed should say what goon they think could play on our first line and actually be effective as both a deterrent and a talent?

    Looks like they tried. Via hockeydb: Clark Gillies Drafted by Edmonton Oilers
    - round 1 #7 overall 1974 WHA Secret Amateur Draft

  47. justDOit says:

    Colonel Obvious:
    VOR,

    Well the Oilers just claimed MacIntyre so there you go.First major error of the MacT regime.MacIntyre makes Scott look like a hockey player.

    So the other team’s pregame talk will no doubt include something like this:

    “Ok guys, they’ve got SMac dressed tonight, so remember to keep your head up out there. If he wants to fight you, just remember to keep skating and he won’t be able to catch you. If he does get one of our guys cornered, someone else on the ice will have to quickly start a fight with one of their other guys. Starting a fight during another fight carries a bigger penalty, and he knows that. Now GO RUN THEIR TALENT!”

  48. bookje says:

    Let’s not get too critical of this. As a short term fix to address the last 3 preseason games, this is ok. If Smac is on the roster in a month, that is different,

  49. RMGS says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    MacT goes the Tambo route:

    Follow

    Ryan RishaugVerified account
    ‏@TSNRyanRishaug
    Oil claim Mcintyre

    So, with this nonsense out of the way (and with the roster balance now further off kilter), can MacT please move on to acquiring a NHL center?

  50. LMHF#1 says:

    Is MacTavish resorting to “I know a guy…” tactics?

    Should we be expecting Thoresen, Reddox, Petersen and others to start showing up?

    Jason Arnott is still out there, isn’t he? Pick him.

  51. goldenchild says:

    bookje,

    Hope you are right but FFS Macintyre? There is zero semblance of a hockey player there.

  52. RMGS says:

    bookje:
    Let’s not get too critical of this.As a short term fix to address the last 3 preseason games, this is ok.If Smac is on the roster in a month, that is different,

    Because he was claimed off waivers, doesn’t he have to be on the big league roster?

  53. delooper says:

    Nice post, VOR.

  54. delooper says:

    RMGS: Because he was claimed off waivers, doesn’t he have to be on the big league roster?

    I think you can re-waiver a player you take off waivers.

  55. rickithebear says:

    Kris11: My solution is to hire a lunatic who will attack the other players best player by swinging his stick at his head as hard as possible, whenever the other team does anything I don’t like. When that lunatic is suspended, I will sign a new one.

    Having watched the flin flon bombers and my first non coerced team the Flyers.
    this is effective!

    wonder how Shannahan treats this.
    Gagner was a 23 year old who was .79PPG.
    Other post lockout 23 yr seasons.
    by rank;
    25th Hemsky .83
    #29 j. Staal .81
    #30 P. Kane .80
    #30 z. Parise .80
    #30 P. Statsny .80
    #30 J. Benn .80
    #34 S. Gagner .79

    wonder how league thinks of Gagner.?
    U24 Fwd rank by production.
    Hall #1LW #3C
    Eberle #2 RW
    Yakupov #6 RW
    Perron #6 LW
    Gagner #7C
    RNH #5 C his one healthy year.

    Teenage seasons since lockout 05-06
    Crosby #1(19) 1.52ppg & #2 (18) 1.26
    Stamkos #3 (19) 1.16 & #20(18) .58 ppg
    P. Kane #4(19) .88ppg
    Kopitar #5 (19) .85 ppg
    Toews #6 (19) .84 ppg
    RNH #6 (18) .84 ppg & #18 (19) .60ppg
    Skinner #8 (18) .77ppg & #9 (19) .69ppg
    Duchene #10 (19) .68
    Mueller #11 (19) .67
    Tavares #12 (19) .66
    Hall #13 (19) .65
    Yakupov #14 (19) .65
    hubredeau #15 (19) .65
    Landeskop #16 (19) .63
    Gagner #17 (18) .62 & #22 (19) .54
    E. Kane #19 (19) .59
    Galchenyuk #21 (18) .56
    j. Staal #23 (18) .52
    Voracek #24 (19) .48
    Zibanejad #25 .48
    i like to insert these names instead of Gagner when discussing the suspension.

  56. B S says:

    B S,

    Holy crap, it’s true:

    Edmonton Oilers @EdmontonOilers
    It’s true! #Oilers have claimed forward Steve MacIntyre off waivers from Pittsburgh. Welcome back to #OilCountry, @smacker33!
    5 minutes ago

    once I stop laughing I’ll give you a sincere apology DCB.

  57. bookje says:

    RMGS: Because he was claimed off waivers, doesn’t he have to be on the big league roster?

    No, if you go to demote him, he goes on waivers again and I think the team that lost him has the first claim.

  58. fifthcartel says:

    What a waste of a roster spot. I’d rather have MacT play than Steve MacIntyre.

  59. Kitchener says:

    Plan A didn’t work (“acquire functional toughness”)

    Now Plan B is in place (4 minutes a night for a 4th line winger) and it comes with a side benefit: an easy way to get the skill wingers more ice time.

    This is no-one’s first choice resolution, but at least it’s settled.

  60. jake70 says:

    LOL, Welcome back Bubbles. LT, take your MacT poster down from your wall. – Just kidding ;)

    I’m like Oil in Virginia, I agree with everything I read on both sides of this issue. LT and Racki’s exchange last night was very good, well articulated on both sides. I just don’t know.

  61. RMGS says:

    bookje: No, if you go to demote him, he goes on waivers again and I think the team that lost him has the first claim.

    Indeed and thank goodness (just looked up the rules).

  62. B S says:

    Apologies DSF, I’ve seen enough crap posted by TSN’s so-called “analysts” and it truly seemed both too absurd, and too coincidental to be true.

    On a similar note: So flashbacks to last night eh. What do you guys think about the Oilers trying to acquire Tavares to cure their Center woes. Quickly everyone, discuss!

  63. Kris11 says:

    Just to be clear, the lunatic would smash his stick (preferably lead core) over the other team’s best player’s head repeatedly until stopped. Even if that player is on the bench. That would deter people.

  64. zatch says:

    So what was that idea about having 3 lines of skilled regulars, then 3 guys who can be plugged in situationally again? Maybe that justifies this move?

    Just kidding. If this isn’t a temp fix for the worthless goons other teams play in the pre-season, then this movie is beyond stupid.

  65. Kris11 says:

    I always love that people favor beating people up to enforce the rules, but not hurting the beaten up. No hurt = no enforcement. If we’re going to use physical force to enforce the rules, it has to do real damage, e.g. brain damage, broken bones, etc.

  66. Kris11 says:

    I am fine with SMAc if

    A.) We waive Brown and Eager and recall them only under very rare circumstances. (They’ll make it through, I think. If Brown doesn’t, who cares?)

    B.) When SMac is in the lineup, other wingers are double shifted to keep him under 5 minutes a game. (Which should obviously be illegal, BTW, to ice a guy who sees multiple games, fights, and who averages less than 9 minutes.)

  67. FastOil says:

    “but am also surprised that few have been critical of management in regard to addressing center”

    Maybe they don’t want to offend you knowing MacT is your man :)

    For me repeated same problems are a sign of something not working at the Bat Cave. We moved past the free pass years ago for me. MacT is new in his position but not new. Nothing is new except Katz but nothing seems to have changed for the larger items.

    The Oilers can get away with Smid and Petry if they are supported. They brought in competition for Potter and Jones and Dubnyk. Even before injury they needed more competition and depth at the most important position other than goal. Either by UFA or trading a young valuable winger for a young valuable centre. Centres can play wing well but not the other way.

  68. delooper says:

    Kris11:
    I always love that people favor beating people up to enforce the rules, but not hurting the beaten up. No hurt = no enforcement. If we’re going to use physical force to enforce the rules, it has to do real damage, e.g. brain damage, broken bones, etc.

    If you’re going to break the rules to get things done, why not go all the way? There’s a famous book by Machiavelli that’d help the Oilers out with strategy. Basically, the smart thing to do is kill all your enemies in their sleep.

  69. Bank Shot says:

    Colonel Obvious:
    VOR,

    Well the Oilers just claimed MacIntyre so there you go.First major error of the MacT regime.MacIntyre makes Scott look like a hockey player.

    The attempted Clarkson contract. Failing to address center depth.

    Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss! Won’t get fooled again!

  70. RexLibris says:

    I wonder if the acquisition is less to do with the Gagner injury and more to do with the brouhaha between Toronto and Buffalo last night.

    Dressing MacIntyre for the preseason can serve a purpose in so far as the games don’t appear to matter to the other coaches so best to have and not need. Once the season begins the Oilers can reassess and losing MacIntyre to waivers is not concerning.

    @LT I am critical of MacTavish for not getting more center depth this summer, but I credit him with a long, hard day’s work in all the other areas as well. At this point the blame, in my opinion, should sit 50/50 with l’ancien regime and MacTavish. Jussi Jokinen looks like a good band-aid to this situation, as does new-Blue Brendan Morrow.

    Sign Wellwood and be done with it for a month.

  71. Kris11 says:

    I hate it when others say “we” to refer to the Oilers. Sorry that I did that myself.

  72. RexLibris says:

    delooper: If you’re going to break the rules to get things done, why not go all the way?There’s a famous book by Machiavelli that’d help the Oilers out with strategy.Basically, the smart thing to do is kill all your enemies in their sleep.

    I prefer the Sun Tzu way, paraphrased: true victory lies not simply in conquering your opponent, but in removing their ability to oppose you.

    Although, those Renaissance Italians knew a thing or two about “compete factors”.

  73. RMGS says:

    RexLibris: At this point the blame, in my opinion, should sit 50/50 with l’ancien regime and MacTavish.

    It’s good that Tambellini is still on the payroll. He’s earning it as scapegoat.

  74. VanOil says:

    Retribution

    Vancouver and Edmonton, both teams that have struggled for a couple years with center depth.

    If Edmonton solved there problem with Malhotra (the last working solution for Van) then beat them out for a playoff spot or better yet the playoffs wouldn’t that be the best retribution?

    Kassians suspension or future facepunching (which will likely gift Van a win on the score sheet) not so much.

  75. Hammers says:

    Surprised . Yes . Didn’t think McT would bring the Smack back . If in the 13 or 14 it still means Hamilton / Brown / or Jones goes down to the AHL .It didn’t work last time so I don’t get it unless we play him against Van in the 2nd game .

  76. stevezie says:

    People talk like if we had a fighter Kassian would be afraid, but so many dirty players are also great fighters. Kassian himself beat Eager, Jordan Tootoo will fight anybody of any size and hold his own, historically Tie Domi was filthy and feared no one… Even Smac got his face caved in by the giant killer Goddard (slayed Boogard too). Fighting someone isn’t even a guarentee of vengeance.
    EDIT- It appears Kris is saying the same thing. So yeah, I agree.

    Kitchener: Plan A didn’t work (“acquire functional toughness”)

    What functional toughness? Brown? He’s better than Macintyre but is still a borderline 4th liner. Eager? He has always sucked as a fighter and I don’t know why everyone talks about him like he can play. He can skate, it’s not the same thing.

    The only real players we have who fight are Smid and Gagner.The OIlers have long been team-soft.

    I guess we can add Ference to that list, and some say Perron. I agree with Eakins- being able to swarm the other team is probably the most useful thing.

    Like a young Ender before him, RNH, Eberle Yak et al. are going to need to internalize that while they may be avenged, no one is going to protect them. They are their own omega plan.

  77. Ribs says:

    Kris11:
    I hate it when others say “we” to refer to the Oilers. Sorry that I did that myself.

    Kevin Lowe says he likes it when fans refer to the team with “we” or “us”, so it’s okay :)

  78. theres oil in virginia says:

    Oilers play Canucks in 2nd reg. season game.

  79. LMHF#1 says:

    stevezie:
    Jordan Tootoo will fight anybody of any size and hold his own

    BAHAHAHA! Oh that’s funny.

  80. russ99 says:

    Aw jeez, the Oilers claimed MacIntrye.

    What the heck, is Tambellini still running the team? We need a center, not a goon. Total reactive move, not in keeping with the best interests of the hockey club, i.e. becoming a legitimate playoff contender.

    If any of Brown, Eager or MacIntyre make the team over Omark due to a perceived lack of “team toughness” whatever the heck that is, I’ll have a conniption.

  81. Bank Shot says:

    Ribs: Kevin Lowe says he likes it when fans refer to the team with “we” or “us”, so it’s okay

    Only the tier ones. You other fans don’t even think about it!

  82. Truth says:

    I posted this at ON as well:

    Gene Principe ‏@GenePrincipe 4m
    “I always said that having even a cutout of Dave Brown on the bench was worth a hundred thousand dollars a year.”Craig MacTavish

    I think you’ll find that people who have played hockey will laugh and say “yep”, and others will be looking up related Corsi numbers on sheets of cardboard.

  83. stevezie says:

    LMHF#1,

    Why? He does. He fights way bigger guys. Sometimes he wins, and sometimes he looses, but it is clear that no one strikes fear into his heart. Whoever called enforces “scuds not nukes” is right.

  84. B S says:

    russ99:
    Aw jeez, the Oilers claimed MacIntrye.

    What the heck, is Tambellini still running the team? We need a center, not a goon. Total reactive move, not in keeping with the best interests of the hockey club, i.e. becoming a legitimate playoff contender.

    If any of Brown, Eager or MacIntyre make the team over Omark due to a perceived lack of “team toughness” whatever the heck that is, I’ll have a conniption.

    The only disagreement I have with this is that Omark hasn’t done anything to distinguish himself from any of these guys (in terms of skill and scoring) so far in TC.

  85. bookje says:

    Truth:

    I think you’ll find that people who have played hockey will laugh and say “yep”, and others will be looking up related Corsi numbers on sheets of cardboard.

    What if we played hockey, and fought a lot (both in hockey and out of hockey) and still disagree with you? Is that ok? Or are you claiming the territory of Hockey Player Tough Guy know it all?

  86. B S says:

    Jack Michaels @EdmontonJack
    There’s no question, from comments by both MacTavish and Eakins, that last night’s line brawl in TOR played huge role in MacIntyre claim.
    12 minutes ago
    Jack Michaels @EdmontonJack
    Asked if MacIntyre has improved his skating, GM Craig MacTavish answered, “he is what he is…he’s a nice weapon to have.”

    can’t be bothered to check who brought up last night’s TO/Buf game, but there you go.

  87. LMHF#1 says:

    stevezie:
    LMHF#1,

    Why? He does. He fights way bigger guys. Sometimes he wins, and sometimes he looses, but it is clear that no one strikes fear into his heart. Whoever called enforces “scuds not nukes” is right.

    Mr. run and hide behind the refs avoids fighting any actual fighter whenever he can.

    Also, no fighter “looses”. Sorry Stevezie but that drives me absolutely nuts.

  88. Bar_Qu says:

    #Oilers Dallas Eakins jokes when asked if MacIntyre fills a definite need, "Second line centre."— Chris Wescott (@TheChrisWescott) September 23, 2013

    #Oilers coach Eakins: "We want team toughness. Not just 2-3 guys."— Chris Wescott (@TheChrisWescott) September 23, 2013

    Eakins seems to have the most realistic assessment of the situation.

    I don’t want to wade into the whole goon thing, but if the Oilers got SMac, I doubt it is going against what Eakins wants. I also doubt that SMac plays much more than the pre-season and ends up in OKC soon.

  89. B S says:

    RexLibris,

    B S:
    Jack Michaels @EdmontonJack
    There’s no question, from comments by both MacTavish and Eakins, that last night’s line brawl in TOR played huge role in MacIntyre claim.
    12 minutes ago
    Jack Michaels @EdmontonJack
    Asked if MacIntyre has improved his skating, GM Craig MacTavish answered, “he is what he is…he’s a nice weapon to have.”

    can’t be bothered to check who brought up last night’s TO/Buf game, but there you go.

    I lied apparently, looked it up. hopefully you’re right Rex.

  90. Truth says:

    bookje: What if we played hockey, and fought a lot (both in hockey and out of hockey) and still disagree with you?Is that ok?Or are you claiming the territory of Hockey Player Tough Guy know it all?

    Expected that. So why did you fight (in hockey)?

    The point is there are variables within the game of hockey that cannot be quantified by stats. Having a high level of confidence is of utmost importance to an athlete. Hence the current standard of team shrinks.

  91. FastOil says:

    If Smac doesn’t beat Kassian, Weise and Alberts and everyone else to the point of injury and against their will it is all for not, pointless. And he cannot lose, ever. This goes to the point of VOR’s story.

    Katz should threaten Shanahan now with restricting his Viagra supply if rulings aren’t favourable.

    I still think Tulipov would be great at the job as a forward and would be as good as Smac or Brown at the hockey thing. Might even be better at the destruction thing. Get him too.

  92. LMHF#1 says:

    FastOil:

    I still think Tulipov would be great at the job as a forward and would be as good as Smac or Brown at the hockey thing. Might even be better at the destruction thing. Get him too.

    If they are going down this path I would have much rather had Tulupov than MacIntyre.

  93. goldenchild says:

    If Ryan Jones is on his way out, and Hall plays C for extended part of the year, wouldnt it make sense to sign a guy like Mason Raymond or someone like that to at least improve the depth of guys who can play in the top 9?

  94. stevezie says:

    LMHF#1,

    You are 100% right on the spelling mistake. I feel great shame.

    On the other thing though, he’s got 71 career fights- more if you count pre-season. He doesn’t fight the Macintyres or the Scotts, but it is accepted that no one fights the heavys except for other heavys, which is what makes them so useless (something John Scott is clearly trying to change).

    Tootoo is 5’9″, 190 lbs- he gives up weight to everyone he fights but notable weight differences include Sesito, Krys Barch and Boris Valabik, who is 6’7″ and 245 and has topped 100 PiMs in several leagues. He doesn;t accept every offer- that’s not his job, but whatever else you might (justly) say about him it’s not fair to put him in the same class as Avery or Lapierre.

    Someone on 1260 was arguing he would be perfect for the Oilers and I do think he has legitimate uses as a player, but I’m not sure I want to inspire the other team to start targeting our guys. With Scott going after Kessel I feel like the Zeitgeist in the NHL on fighting might be changing back to Tiger WIlliams said his job was: take out the other team’s stars.

    Williams said something along the lines of, “I don’t understand the point of these tough guys just fighting each other. When I played, if I was doing my job and the other guy was doing his sooner or later we would meet, but that was not priority number one. That’s just WWF nonsense, nothing to do with hockey. I was trying to neutralize their good hockey players so my team could win.”

    There’s the problem with enforcers- the main people enforcers “protect” their stars from is other enforcers.

  95. wordbird says:

    RexLibris:
    I wonder if the acquisition is less to do with the Gagner injury and more to do with the brouhaha between Toronto and Buffalo last night.

    So relieved they’ve signed a big lunkhead to chase Phil Kessel around during those 2 Leafs games in October. :/

  96. rickithebear says:

    Steve macintyre played 302:57 he was a -1.19 GD/60 player in that time.

    he played with 63 players.
    he was an even or plus player with 52/63 209 minutes
    1.29Gf/60 .86Ga/60
    He was a negative player with 11/63 94 minutes
    .318Gf/60 1.57GA/60
    the 11;
    Storitini, Kreps, R. jones, R. omara, MAP, Mathias, VDV, Duco, Pisani, Dvorak, Cogliano.

    the only question for me beyond this is.
    Is a roster spot taken when a guy is on suspension.

  97. stevezie says:

    bookje,

    As Truth points out some things are hard to quantify. Players testimony is a legitimate qualitative data, non?

    As smart as I’m sure I am, and as clear as the numbers usually are, I am willing to accept that people who have played the game at high levels know things about it that I don’t.

    Say it’s a placebo (I think College and international hockey existing is a pretty good argument for this) and I won’t argue, but I don’t condemn people for trying acupuncture, chiropractors or faith healers if they help and are affordable. A good placebo is hard to find.

  98. FastOil says:

    LMHF#1: If they are going down this path I would have much rather had Tulupov than MacIntyre.

    He must really be a nutter if the AHL doesn’t even want him. Guys that big and tough don’t have to play hockey well. Perfect.

    Kassian can play hockey and there are few who can handle him in a fight. You aren’t going to beat him at his game which is physical, but he’s an oaf. The way to deal with him is to goad him into penalties and irritate the crap out of him. 8 times a year or more try to get him to take majors and suspensions until his rap sheet neutralizes him, as Torres’ is limiting him now.

    What the team needs is Tikkanen. The Oilers need a fearless pest or two. Call him a sissy for sticking Gagner, get him to go and turtle on him. Remember how apoplectic especially Lowe and everyone else used to get over Neil Sheehy? Brains over brawn.

  99. Andropod says:

    I always liked Smack. He is what he is, maybe he can be trained to screen the goalie?
    By my eye as a 2nd class fan the Oil always seemed to be less intimidated when he was around doing no-charge tooth extractions and involuntary anesthesia.

  100. bookje says:

    Truth: Expected that.So why did you fight (in hockey)?

    The point is there are variables within the game of hockey that cannot be quantified by stats.Having a high level of confidence is of utmost importance to an athlete.Hence the current standard of team shrinks.

    This is a lot like debates around Full Moons causing crime rates and hospital birth rates to spike. Lots of people believe that – many of them are police and/or hospital workers. They are perfectly comfortable ignoring the stats that demonstrate that it is not true.

    I fought in hockey (and elsewhere) because it was accepted as appropriate to do so and I was rewarded for it by my peers. I stopped fighting as I got older because my role in society changed (punching your colleagues in a meeting doesn’t gain you the same social kudoos as punching someone in a hockey arena). I much prefer the conditions that promote skill (in the game or in life) over brute force.

    With that said, there are two arguments being made. The first is that in today’s version of the NHL, tough guys and fighting do or do not reduce the aggressiveness of the opposition team. The second is about whether an alternative form of hockey (such as that played in the Olympics where fighting is discouraged both by the formal rules and the accepted norms of practice) would be a preferred alternative.

  101. Colonel Obvious says:

    Stauffer, of all people, actually made a good point. If one-dimensional MacIntyre replaces a one-dimensional player like Petrell are the Oilers worse off?

    Myself I’d try and fill all my roster spots with hockey players but the good thing about Macintyre is that he’ll be healthy scratched most nights.

  102. bookje says:

    For those who think Stauffer is the ultimate Oilers insider – a few hours ago he tweeted this.

    Bob Stauffer ‏@Bob_Stauffer 2h
    Steve MacIntyre is down to 245 pounds and in great shape. But I don’t see the #Oilers claiming him on waivers

  103. LMHF#1 says:

    FastOil:
    What the team needs is Tikkanen.

    We do need a Tikkanen, but do any even exist any more?

  104. LMHF#1 says:

    bookje:The second is about whether an alternative form of hockey (such as that played in the Olympics where fighting is discouraged both by the formal rules and the accepted norms of practice) would be a preferred alternative.

    Anyone saying this should go watch a Golden Bears game. This doesn’t work either – in fact it makes it works because sticks are swinging instead.

  105. stevezie says:

    Colonel Obvious,

    Stauffer doesn’t get enough credit.- especially for his willingness to change his tune. He is an old school guy who has fallen in love with Tyler Dellow and through him is beginning to understand advanced stats, and has started to publicly back off from the idea that heavyweights serve any purpose. Once upon a time he was banging the drum for drafting McIlrath, but just last week admitted he is changing his mind. Argue I’m giving him credit for something he is supposed to do (change you opinion based on new information), but so few people in the hockey world are willing to do this that I’ll celebrate it wherever I see it.

    Plus he takes care of his kids!

  106. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Stauffer seems to think all of Eager, Brown and SMac make the team.

    yikes!

  107. stevezie says:

    On further thought, Smac being benched? Send him down every game you don’t need him! Mercenary is the perfect job for him! He can just bounce around the league on waivers whenever someone needs to prevent something (Smac is more of a preventer, I’m not sure he has the psycho gene- this isn’t a criticism I’m saying he seems like a decent person).

    Who cares if he gets picked up off waivers? When will GMs learn- there is always an available heavyweight, and since their main job is to fight the other guy’s tough (it doesn’t really matter if they win) it doesn’t matter which one you have. Functional toughness is very valuable, one dimensional fighters might be the most replaceable things in hockey.

    Sorry about posting so much, I’ve gone back to school (a lot of people go to school for eight years…) and trying to study has given me a lot of time to catch up on message boards and guitar practise.

  108. RMGS says:

    Most disappointing MacT quote to date: “You need a deterrent … especially with our team” (on acquiring Steve MacIntyre).

    http://video.oilers.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=4&id=446754

  109. Andropod says:

    Seeing neither can fight, isn’t Omark a better bet than Eager?

  110. stevezie says:

    John Scott and Ben Eager have both realised the original point of “tough guys” was to exploit soft guys, not to fight each other.
    “Ben Eager on the Canucks: “We play them a lot down the stretch, and we’re going to go after their skill players also.”
    That’s from Spector’s twitter.

    I’m not sure how accurate “we” is, but the rest makes sense.

    I’m not sure a team with the Oil’s target-to-toughness ration wants to start any wars.

    If this is the way you want to go get Tootoo, not MacIntyre. Get Brian Boyle. Get the “functional toughness” you’ve long pretended to have.

    Andropod,
    Agreed. Eager is not an intimidating fighter. He is willing to be a jerk though.

  111. spoiler says:

    stevezie: As Truth points out some things are hard to quantify. Players testimony is a legitimate qualitative data, non?

    I’m not sure which side I fall on this issue, but there is a logical fallacy here being employed by LT and Woodguy and many others–all of whom’s opinion I respect greatly, by the way.

    But the error in logic is still being made. It goes along the lines of this:

    Because liberties are still being taken with enforcers on the bench and with enforcers even fighting within the game, an enforcer does not prevent liberties from being taken during that game or any future game.

    From the observations contained within the statement, it can be said that enforcers don’t prevent ALL liberties. However, it cannot be said that enforcers don’t prevent ANY liberties. Such a statement cannot be tested empirically. Yet this is essentially the inference being made.

    As such, we should put some faith in the anecdotal justifications from players and coaches, and respect their perceptions on this matter.

  112. Kris11 says:

    spoiler,

    Spoiler,

    Part of the argument is that teams without enforcers do not have more injuries.

    It is possible that the players have false beliefs about the game that they watch. What evidence is there that their belief (which isn’t a consensus) isn’t just a false and pervasive myth, perpetuated by the hockey culture they grew up in and live in.

  113. Dead Cat Bounce says:

    From Gregor’s latest on ON:

    “I will say this; however, I had four different Oilers walk up to me with a huge smile on their face saying MacIntyre is coming back.”

    http://oilersnation.com/2013/9/23/gdb-3-opportunity-knocks

  114. Beaker says:

    Colonel Obvious:
    Stauffer, of all people, actually made a good point.If one-dimensional MacIntyre replaces a one-dimensional player like Petrell are the Oilers worse off?

    Myself I’d try and fill all my roster spots with hockey players but the good thing about Macintyre is that he’ll be healthy scratched most nights.

    its not a good point. Its a bad justification. If your argument is “well we’ve just replaced crap with a different kind of crap so were not really worse off” you seem to be totally disregarding the whole idea of “getting better”

  115. wheatnoil says:

    spoiler: From the observations contained within the statement, it can be said that enforcers don’t prevent ALL liberties.However, it cannot be said that enforcers don’t prevent ANY liberties.Such a statement cannot be tested empirically.Yet this is essentially the inference being made.

    It can be tested to some extent though. You can pool all games played with a dedicated enforcer and games played without a dedicated enforcer for every team and determine if there is a statistical difference in injuries, shots, goals, and wins between the two categories. I seem to think that this has been done, but I could be wrong about that.

    Of course, because injuries are generally speaking rare events (even rarer than goals) so you’d have to have a pretty significant different in the numbers for it show up statistically.

  116. Beaker says:

    Dead Cat Bounce,

    i smiled when they brought in Hal Johnson and Joanne Macleod to do amazing race canada. doesnt mean i watched the show. maybe they just like the guy. Maybe they pumped laughing gas into the locker room. Results will be what matters here.

  117. Colonel Obvious says:

    spoiler,

    While it is true that it isn’t possible to demonstrate the negative cases, i.e. all the injuries that don’t happen, it does not follow from this that we should therefore infer from this that the players with experience know what they are talking about. That would be tautological since their belief in the effectiveness of intimidation precedes their experience and does not arise from their experience. Incidentally this is why it is impossible to let the facts decide questions. In any case there is going to be more than one internally coherent set of explanations for a given set of facts. Therefore the facts cannot be the standard by which one chooses between competing explanations. Hence, in this case both sides of the debate think what happened this weekend proves their case.

    Thus, in this question, like all questions, we are forced to engage in philosophical discussion. So while you are right that the argument does not, strictly speaking, rest on empirical validity. However, the argument remains sound on a rational basis. There is no reason to believe an enforcer on the bench protects players on the ice. There is also no evidence that it provides protection. Therefore in the absence of both reason and evidence, I conclude that an enforcer makes no difference.

  118. RexLibris says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: Rex

    Yikes indeed.

    I’ve been a proponent of a tough line in the past, but it usually centered around players like Zenon Konopka, you know, someone who could skate and win a faceoff.

    Personally, I’d demote Eager and keep Omark. I like Brown and I think he actually plays a 4th line role well with some good puck possession numbers for a Hordichuk-style player (i haven’t looked at his numbers, just guessing on the preseason-to-date).

    Eager, Brown and MacIntyre is a line that gets fed vulcanized rubber all night long. Like the scene in Plains, Trains and Automobiles “You’re going the wrong way!”

  119. wheatnoil says:

    I wonder if the SMac pick-up may also shed some light on what MacT thinks of his depth forwards. Consider this exchange from the press conference:

    Question: Does the fact that Dallas (Eakins) is willing to have some of his skill players kill penalties instead of using, you know, traditional 5-6 forwards, does that provide a mechanism that [helps provide a role for MacIntyre]?

    MacT: Yeah. I think that definitely helps. (…) There are two ways of looking at it. That your fourth line has to play and maybe as you get deep in the playoffs that happens, (…) I think that it gives, at times, your top 9 forwards another opportunity if you are going to shorten your bench and then maybe Steve doesn’t play as much. (…) That can be beneficial if you need the offense. It really speaks to the whole philosophy, these things work when your team is good (…) you can have guys that can really fit a specific role and we’re hopeful that our team is going to be strong enough to support some individual weakness.

    I wonder if MacT looks at his roster and really likes his top 9 and feels his bottom 3 don’t have much to offer. They don’t necessarily kill penalties, especially if Eakins is using skill guys on the penalty kill. I wonder if Eager and Brown don’t offer enough additional benefit in his eyes. He looks around for functional toughness and doesn’t see anything available for cheap. So he figures, “Hell, I’ll just get SMac, so Eakins can play him 4 minutes a night, and run the top 9 more often. Maybe later in the season when we need to rest the top 9 more I can send him down and pick up more depth but for now I’d rather play the top 9 as much as possible. Maybe when Gagner and Nuge are back we’ll have the depth to run four lines.”

    Just a thought. This move seems to run counter to a lot of what he said earlier, so I’m trying to make sense of his thought process.

  120. RexLibris says:

    wordbird: So relieved they’ve signed a big lunkhead to chase Phil Kessel around during those 2 Leafs games in October.:/

    I think John Scott is more the kind of player they are thinking about.

  121. DeadmanWaking says:

    It always amazes me how many people have never played a war game with a combat model governed by dice.

    You start out with a sensible strategy. For example, the ever popular “first I take Manhattan, then I take Berlin”. You roll a fat wedge of tanks into New Jersey and you throw them down. Snake eyes. Better luck next time. Then in the other confrontation, box cars. Darnell Nurse single-handedly takes out two armored divisions and walks into Berlin. Well, I wasn’t expecting that to happen on the first attack, but I guess I’ll take it.

    But hey, Manhattan remains my primary goal so I’ll I flip some fighters into Boston and try again. Snake eyes. Then you walk into Moscow against vastly superior forces on some cardboard cutouts and a double double of fives and sixes.

    Sweet, but weird. Well, my adversaries are so busy taking back their capital cities (which I’ll never hold) that I can continue to pour resources onto the eastern seaboard. Finally my subs are within range, let’s pound Manhattan again, for the third time with a superior force. Then you lay down 1-2, 2-3, 1-3. Blub blub blub, six subs are scrubbed. This is getting damn irritating.

    Then buddy bonehead walks into the room and goes “Idiot! Can’t you see that taking Manhattan is the key to your position!” Then buddy bonehead walks out of the room tossing a banana peal at the garbage can, which strikes the rim, sits there for a moment, before slithering to the floor.

    Thanks, buddy bonehead, for the sharp insight.

    The entire engine of these games is that you can never rest assured that you will obtain your primary objective even if you pour your best resources into it turn after turn, year after year. Bad luck on one front where you expect victory is usually compensated by good luck on another front where victory appeared unlikely. If you manage to win more battles than you lose, and keep your adversaries hopping with little setbacks of their own, eventually the clouds open up on your main chance, if by then it still matters.

    A GM’s "off"-season is not that different. Under the cap, one has to be careful not to bait too many lines at the same time. You’ll lose your fishing license if you can’t pull them all into the boat.

    If you’ve got a bite on MPS that improves your roster at a position that’s not your primary need, do you take it? Of do you hold off, playing the odds that you eventually do manage to swap him in some package for a serviceable center in the warm reprise of Indian summer? Do you hold up everything to make sure you land the player of highest need, at the risk of leaving every other problem unsolved for the duration, and then go on a spree the week before the season begins snapping up bargains from empty cupboards? Errr, haven’t we tried that already?

    What would buddy bonehead do, with his fine strategic acumen?

    I have a good idea how MacT came out on the schneid on depth at center. The price was wrong, turn after turn. He had many irons in the fire, on many fronts. After all, he came into this with more than the normal list of holes to fill. And he’s made many changes with no feedback yet from how the team performs on the ice, which only adds to the fog of logistics.

    Let’s not start saying this looks like the old Tambo. Is this a problem Tambo managed to inflict upon himself? Nine fresh bodies and not yet the sober aftermath of the first skirmish of official hostilities?

    It’s just a thing that happens. — Harrison Mooney, a man whose name will live in infamy.

    Time to load this idiot into a recumbent helicopter built to service the 7½ floor. Hey buddy, don’t lose your lid stepping out. The pilot? Oh no, he’s in no danger. He shuts the rotors down before stepping out. Between whistles. What’s with the complaining? As you know, the blades have no intent. If they flutter, it’s just something that happens. No aim, no foul. It’s not like a knife-edged 12-foot long pole coming around in a blur is hard to duck.

    What’s that you say? Some patent nonsense about military standards for segregating blades and faces? Get out there, scrotbag! Sarge plants a fat boot on his ass and expels him into a thicket of wind-whipped blackberry canes, before lifting off at maximum rotor torque as the radar lights up, which snaps the midget tail rotor around unexpectedly just as the skids suck free from the mud. Oh well, shit happens. No need for the pilot to burden his mind with incidental physics. He’s got game.

  122. stevezie says:

    Fighters aren’t just there to prevent injuries- hell you could argue they’re not there to do that at all. They make the team’s good players “play six inches taller”, or so the legend goes.

    The players’ belief that fighting matters is evidence that it does matter. We are debating whether or not it is a placebo, but it is established that placebos work. Well it is established medically- I think studies that show fighters don’t affect win-loss records are more useful than ones that show they don’t prevent injuries.

    Can you quantify confidence and enthusiasm?

    Probably more than a lot of people are ready to admit. I don’t buy the players’ arguments, but I’m not ready to completely dismiss them either.

    Colonel Obvious,

    Well, obviously.

  123. RMGS says:

    The Dallas Eakins redemptive press conference experience continues: http://video.oilers.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=4&id=446733&lang=en.

  124. wheatnoil says:

    RMGS:
    The Dallas Eakins redemptive press conference experience continues: http://video.oilers.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=4&id=446733&lang=en.

    How in hell did Eakins surpass MacT as “the guy that makes the most sense”? It’s kind of disturbing how much sense he makes.

  125. slopitch says:

    I dont like the hire but SMac wont be here past xmas. And I enjoy a good fight. Give the extra minutes to Yak.

    Im more worried about the C depth.

  126. stevezie says:

    wheatnoil: I wonder if MacT looks at his roster and really likes his top 9 and feels his bottom 3 don’t have much to offer.

    Have any of the candidates to replace Petrell been so good that the opportunity cost of ManIntyre is unacceptable? With improved fitness an tv timeouts the 4th line is less important than ever before.

    This only makes sense if Macintyre provides any value whatsoever. I’d rather have Brown, he can play a bit and guys will fight him.

    Beaker: i smiled when they brought in Hal Johnson and Joanne Macleod to do amazing race canada.

    Really? How’d they do?

  127. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    http://www.capgeek.com/oilers/reserve-list/

    looks like SMac makes 50.

    MacT is going to have to move someone to make another waiver pick up, trade, FA signing.

  128. wheatnoil says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    http://www.capgeek.com/oilers/reserve-list/

    looks like SMac makes 50.

    MacT is going to have to move someone to make another waiver pick up, trade, FA signing.

    Doesn’t Khaira slide? Assuming Nurse eventually gets sent down, he would slide too. So that would make 48.

    Edit: I wonder if Rimmer ends up getting an AHL deal this year.

  129. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    wheatnoil: Doesn’t Khaira slide? Assuming Nurse eventually gets sent down, he would slide too. So that would make 48.

    Edit: I wonder if Rimmer ends up getting an AHL deal this year.

    Good eye. That orange band should have alerted me.

    Is Rimmer ineligible to play Jr? I imagine if he goes minor pro he goes to ECHL as a call up option.

  130. James says:

    Kassian on Steve ‘Deterrent’ MacIntyre, over at TSN:

    “Perfect,” Kassian told reporters after being informed of the move. “I don’t think he can skate, that’s the last thing on our mind.”

    He may not be 100% wrong, but I don’t think I’d be giving SMac more reasons to try to knock my head clean off my shoulders.

  131. Woodguy says:

    spoiler,

    From the observations contained within the statement, it can be said that enforcers don’t prevent ALL liberties. However, it cannot be said that enforcers don’t prevent ANY liberties. Such a statement cannot be tested empirically. Yet this is essentially the inference being made.

    I get what you are saying, that you cannot prove what doesn’t happen, so you have to rely on anecdotal evidence.

    I was of that same position.

    I’m not any more.

    One of the reasons is that the Oilers lost more man games due to injury the year Smac played a full season.

    I know its a small sample and doesn’t prove anything, but it is still funny that it happened that way.

    I’ve never played hockey at a high enough level to know how an enforcer actually changes the player’s mindset/confidence, so to that end we have to go with anecdotal evidence, but you also don’t know who is just toeing the company line.

    MacT said that a cardboard cut out Brown was worth $100K, but that was back when enforcers could go up to a guy and pound the shit of him and only get 5 for fighting.

    Its a different world now, and yesterday’s TOR/BUF game proves that.

    Scott trying to fight Kessel was a disgrace.

    There has been exactly 1 player in the history of the NHL to play 150 games and score 5pts or less.

    John Soctt.

    That’s not hockey

  132. wheatnoil says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: Good eye. That orange band should have alerted me.

    Is Rimmer ineligible to play Jr? I imagine if he goes minor pro he goes to ECHL as a call up option.

    He’s 21 now, so I think he’s got to go pro. So I agree, I think he gets an OKC deal and gets sent down to Bakersfield to split time with Bunz.

    —-

    Reporter: Ryan Smyth played center last year. Are you thinking of putting him back at center?

    Eakins: Right now I’d consider YOU at center! It’s like I said before, this winger, centre… listen you’re a forward, just go out there… how hard is it to win a face-off? I will try anybody there. Could Ryan Smyth go back there? Absolutely. Jeez, maybe Yak’s going to be the centre. The way Justin Schultz skates, maybe I should put him there. We will find a solution!

    Hilarious!

  133. Woodguy says:

    stevezie,

    Have any of the candidates to replace Petrell been so good that the opportunity cost of ManIntyre is unacceptable? With improved fitness an tv timeouts the 4th line is less important than ever before.

    I disagree.

    CHI’s 4th line was key to their playoff win.

    They were sent out in the last game when down by 1 and got the tying goal.

    An Edmonton 4th line (as currently constructed) couldn’t give Eakins that option.

    THEN, when CHI went up by 1 Quenville sent out the 4th line again to protect the lead with the Cup on the line.

    He went to Toews line, then the 4th, then Toews, then the 4th.

    4th lines matter when they can outplay the other team.

  134. stevezie says:

    Woodguy,

    John Scott isn’t hockey, but last night he was effective. Whatever the hockey ethics of what he did, it makes more tactical sense than pushing Macintyre towards McGratton and acting like the result changes the hockey game.

    Not that it isn’t exciting. I don’t like what is says about me or humanity, but it is exciting to not simply defeat your opponent but to really beat them.

    I wonder if Gregor understands the ending of Slapshot yet? I remember hearing him say he never understood the striptease. John Scott.

  135. BlacqueJacque says:

    wheatnoil,

    Because MacT never really made that much sense, just relative to Lowe. Remember, we almost had David Clarkson for the low low price of more years and/or dollars than what Toronto already ridiculously overpaid.

  136. BlacqueJacque says:

    Woodguy,

    It’s a ridiculously small sample and you’re lumping in all injuries with ones that result from dirty play.

    I admit I don’t understand what MacIntyre brings other than fighting the other super heavyweight, but clearly the players overwhelmingly want enforcers on their team.

  137. stevezie says:

    Woodguy,

    Oh I agree that a good 4th line is key to a cup run. New Jersey in particular made it to the finals, I thought, on the strength of four strong lines, but to paraphrase some guy from sports highlights, “Cup Finals?You’re talking about finals? You kidding me? I just hope we can win some games.”

    There are multiple things between us and a cup run, and Steve Macintyre is not at the top of that list. For the time being I would coach towards a playoff spot and hope that the increased respect helps us land a good UFA next summer. Run the horses ragged! We can worry about getting the girl once we make it to the dance.

    Woodguy: 4th lines matter when they can outplay the other team.

    Exactly, but if they can’t it is easier and less costly to bury them than ever before.

  138. BlacqueJacque says:

    James:
    Kassian on Steve ‘Deterrent’ MacIntyre, over at TSN:

    “Perfect,” Kassian told reporters after being informed of the move. “I don’t think he can skate, that’s the last thing on our mind.”

    He may not be 100% wrong, but I don’t think I’d be giving SMac more reasons to try to knock my head clean off my shoulders.

    What’s to prevent Mike Brown from tying up Kassian until Smac can jump in and Ivanans him?

  139. ASkoreyko says:

    B S:
    I wouldn’t worry about anything Bob Mackenzie says right now. Almost always, when he’s talking about Western Conference teams he’s spouting the popular opinion as if it is fact.

    Oilers got beat up last night. Oilers have a small, skilled (and therefore wussy, because it’s 0 sum of course) team. Therefore common sports analyst sense (and a look at past Oiler aquisitions) dictates that the Oil must look for a goon. In Mackenzie’s tiny simplistic mind this makes it fact.

    I am really not trying to pick on you as I never would of believed the SMac pick-up until it happened, but I was wondering why you seem to dislike Bob McKenzie so much? McKenzie is generally regarded as one of the truly plugged in insiders on TV and I always find his analysis to be fairly thoughtful and accurate. He is basically as far as you can get from Pierre Macguire or Doug MacLean so I was hoping to hear your reasoning.

  140. bookje says:

    ASkoreyko,

    Yes, Bob MacKenzie is very reliable.

  141. B S says:

    Re: enforcers/goons and wins/losses of games. Two problems for the arguments that Enforcers have a detrimental effect on winning. 1) when are enforcers/goons most commonly deployed? usually in blowout games where 1 team (lets call them Calgary, for discussion later) decides that if they aren’t going to win they might as well do some damage. 2) effects, placebo or not, are not immediate, they are inherently going to be long term (assuming they are present at all). Every stat I’ve seen on fighting and wins has looked at the the game, the next game, or maybe the next 4 games. you don’t usually play the same team within 3 or 4 games.

    I’ve also yet to hear a reasonable explanation for how scoring a goal (likely in a lopsided or meaningless game) can make up for a severe injury to Hall, or Yakupov (miss even a quarter of a season). I flipflop on the whole enforcer/no-enforcer debate. That’s why I try to use qualifiers like “devils advocate”, but the pp argument alone just doesn’t math right for me. The closest compromise I could come up with was the Krueger strategy: remember Calgary above, say losing a game 4-1, taking runs at the kids. Krueger didn’t goon it up, he just kept putting the skill payers out and scoring goals, he had his foot on their throat in the 3rd period and decided to step. He embarassed the Flames badly enough that they laid off on the dirt in the next game. But his requires you to have the upper hand to start, and to have a big enough skill advantage to rip them up.

  142. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Raymond signs with the Leafs. One year, 1M.

    I’d rather him over Jones let alone SMac.

  143. B S says:

    Watched that Kassian video again. No way it’s an accident.

  144. Woodguy says:

    BlacqueJacque:
    Woodguy,

    It’s a ridiculously small sample and you’re lumping in all injuries with ones that result from dirty play.

    I admit I don’t understand what MacIntyre brings other than fighting the other super heavyweight, but clearly the players overwhelmingly want enforcers on their team.

    Most of those injuries came from being hit by others.

  145. Jordan says:

    OT: I really love listening to Eakin’s pressers. Love them. Man is full of great quotes.

    My favourites from today:

    “…I think he’s been good at camp. But good is the enemy of great.”

    “We want our guys to complete… And it’s a violent sport. It is! You’re out there with this hard puck, there’s blades on the end of your feet, you’ve got a stick in your hands and you’re skating around at 30 miles an hour… Like… And you’re asking them to hit each other!

    It’s a violent game.

    But the one thing I firmly believe in: as much as I want my team to play tough and to play hard and to complete, they have a firm duty to protect the other guys on the other team. And the things that you saw the other night… That’s over the line for me. And will our team step over the line? Absolutely we will – we’ll make a mistake somewhere along the way. But in the end, this isn’t about suspensions or getting fined, or whatever. This is about playing hard and knowing where the line is – About where you could really do some damage”

    “The players make the decisions – not us. Their play will determine what’s going on here (who’s being cut).”

    “you need your team to go through adversity. And… Maybe not right away like this, but when you get winning during the season, some quietly as a coach you’re going Meh, it wouldn’t be bad if we got kicked in the butt a couple of times here. Just to face a little adversity as you go along.”

    Love it!

  146. Colonel Obvious says:

    NHL general managers are an interesting kind of incompetence. Most of what Nonis has done this summer was terrible. The Clarkson deal was terrible. Choosing Bozak over Grabovski and MacArthur is terrible. Chasing Fransom away is dumb. Giving Orr a multi-year contract is inexplicable.

    Then he goes around and signs a good player like Mason Raymond for peanuts. Great move. Why didn’t we do this?

  147. delooper says:

    B S:
    Watched that Kassian video again. No way it’s an accident.

    Is someone saying it was an accident?

    I remember a game where Messier broke someone’s jaw using a flying elbow. The Kassian stick to Gagner’s face could be argued as karmic retribution just as easily as it being an accident.

  148. delooper says:

    Colonel Obvious:
    Then he goes around and signs a good player like Mason Raymond for peanuts.Great move.Why didn’t we do this?

    I’m with G.W.Bush when I say we should let history decide whether or not that was a boneheaded move.

  149. RexLibris says:

    stevezie:
    Woodguy,

    I wonder if Gregor understands the ending of Slapshot yet? I remember hearing him say he never understood the striptease. John Scott.

    That’s funny. Last night I went to bed with the John Scott thing still fresh in my mind, and I couldn’t stop thinking about Michael Ontkean’s striptease. I was imagining when it was in the theatre with a bunch of hockey guys sitting there waiting for the big, explosive, bloody ending and them collectively going “huh?”

    As much as the Hanson brothers were entertaining and hilarious, they were a parody, a satire of what hockey can be. Onkean’s character was an almost nihilistic incarnation of what was left of the skill in the game.

  150. Lucinius says:

    The Scott thing, in my mind, was excellent hockey. it was not his fault Carlyle put the Kessel line out there when he knew what the Sabres wanted. He trotted out Kessel as the lamb to the slaughter and almost paid for it.

    As for Scott going after a skill guy? LOVE IT. One of the things I have always hated about the NHL was the idea that non-skill guys were not allowed to tussle with skill guys who didn’t have a penchant for dropping the gloves. Its hockey. Everyone is fair game so long as what you’re doing is legal — what Scott tried to do was within the bounds of the rules.

    Its something I want the Oilers to do. Kassian takes out Gagner? Have Brown or whomever try to beat the shit out of Horvat or a similar skill guy that’s playing. Ignore the dirty players — you cannot stop them because they refuse to engage and will always make the dirty split-second decision when it comes down to it, because that is who they are.

    Take it out on the other team’s skill guys — then the coach might reign in his dirty players because he realizes MAD is now in effect.. and unlike them you’re doing it within the bounds of the rules.

  151. spoiler says:

    Woodguy: spoiler, From the observations contained within the statement, it can be said that enforcers don’t prevent ALL liberties. However, it cannot be said that enforcers don’t prevent ANY liberties. Such a statement cannot be tested empirically. Yet this is essentially the inference being made.I get what you are saying, that you cannot prove what doesn’t happen, so you have to rely on anecdotal evidence.I was of that same position.I’m not any more.One of the reasons is that the Oilers lost more man games due to injury the year Smac played a full season.I know its a small sample and doesn’t prove anything, but it is still funny that it happened that way.I’ve never played hockey at a high enough level to know how an enforcer actually changes the player’s mindset/confidence, so to that end we have to go with anecdotal evidence, but you also don’t know who is just toeing the company line.MacT said that a cardboard cut out Brown was worth $100K, but that was back when enforcers could go up to a guy and pound the shit of him and only get 5 for fighting.Its a different world now, and yesterday’s TOR/BUF game proves that.Scott trying to fight Kessel was a disgrace.There has been exactly 1 player in the history of the NHL to play 150 games and score 5pts or less.John Soctt.That’s not hockey

    One thing about all of this that I do believe, is that the league should learn their lesson from this pre-season and remedy the issue.

    And that issue is the situation that with nothing on the line, the league has created an incentive for bad behavior during such games.

    They need to step up to the plate and de-incentivize bad behavior by doing something along the lines of double suspensions for infractions that occur during the pre-season.

    And if I were MacT I think I would risk a fine by going public and saying so.

  152. delooper says:

    spoiler: One thing about all of this that I do believe, is that the league should learn their lesson from this pre-season and remedy the issue.

    Or you could do something like have a 1-game suspension for anything more than a minor penalty. That way if a fringe player is trying to show their value by being a goon, they know they’d be cutting their own head off in the process.

  153. FastOil says:

    B S:
    Watched that Kassian video again. No way it’s an accident.

    Agreed. When the puck is no where near, there is only one reason to swing your stick at a player which is clearly what happened. He may not have wanted this much damage but he wanted to hurt him. There is no reasonable counter argument, thus he will be suspended.

  154. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    stevezie: I wonder if Gregor understands the ending of Slapshot yet? I remember hearing him say he never understood the striptease. John Scott.

    Did he say he didn’t understand it?

    That’s kind of amazing.

  155. Kris11 says:

    Lucinius,

    “Its hockey. Everyone is fair game so long as what you’re doing is legal — what Scott tried to do was within the bounds of the rules.”

    You keep using that word “rules,” and I do not think you know what it means.

    :)

  156. FastOil says:

    Lucinius:
    The Scott thing, in my mind, was excellent hockey. it was not his fault Carlyle put the Kessel line out there when he knew what the Sabres wanted. He trotted out Kessel as the lamb to the slaughter and almost paid for it.

    As for Scott going after a skill guy? LOVE IT. One of the things I have always hated about the NHL was the idea that non-skill guys were not allowed to tussle with skill guys who didn’t have a penchant for dropping the gloves. Its hockey. Everyone is fair game so long as what you’re doing is legal — what Scott tried to do was within the bounds of the rules.

    Its something I want the Oilers to do. Kassian takes out Gagner? Have Brown or whomever try to beat the shit out of Horvat or a similar skill guy that’s playing. Ignore the dirty players — you cannot stop them because they refuse to engage and will always make the dirty split-second decision when it comes down to it, because that is who they are.

    Take it out on the other team’s skill guys — then the coach might reign in his dirty players because he realizes MAD is now in effect.. and unlike them you’re doing it within the bounds of the rules.

    I have visions of Mac I skating around after the Sedins all over the ice, completely ignoring the play, and almost catching one because they were never fast and are slowing.

  157. delooper says:

    Kris11:

    You keep using that word “rules,” and I do not think you know what it means.

    Well, there’s the functional in-game rules and then the bigger rules. A 2-minute penalty for tripping or holding is sometimes considered a “good penalty” to take. So in a sense it’s within the “broad rules of the game” in that it’s acceptable behaviour met with very limited repercussions, it’s “discouraged” as opposed to being against the rules. You aren’t removed from the game permanently for tripping. You aren’t suspended and your career is not terminated.

    In this broad sense, being “outside the rules” would mean, for instance, behaviour that resulted in the termination of your contract with the league. Criminal prosecution, etc. One could imagine a team hiring someone whose sole purpose would be go skate up to Kassian, brain him and leave him permanently disabled or dead. That would be against the rules in the strong sense.

  158. jake70 says:

    FastOil: I have visions of Mac I skating around after the Sedins all over the ice, completely ignoring the play, and almost catching one because they were never fast and are slowing.

    That would be great entertainment. Sort of like those wildlife shows where you get those freeloading hyenas boldy nibbling on a lion’s kill and the lion starts chasing them and they are scared shitless.

  159. Truth says:

    I think there are a few forgetting what the game of hockey is to MacT:

    First, the GM himself:
    http://youtu.be/PbJ641B91EE

    Then, his running mate (and many who equate THall to):
    http://youtu.be/PbJ641B91EE
    http://youtu.be/_BJ12dpgRIA

    And just for fun, I think this would end up in the world exploding:
    http://youtu.be/jZMEE7tlq6A

    Of course, times have changed. As an adult in St. Albert you now have a wear a helmet while riding a bicycle. It’s a for real law.

  160. denny33 says:

    I have been talking about an enforcer for a year now….

    People in other cities are talking about all the garbage that Vancouver aimed at some elite young Oilers…..

    I realize this is a stats based forum but…seriously?

    I actually thought Hemsky would not walk again after a LUDICROUS cross check.

    Not even a penalty?

    Somebody has to be held to account – most of the dirty stuff was not even called on Saturday.

    We watched Eric Belanger play for the Edmonton Oilers for two years and receive incredible amounts of icetime…..

    I think we can dress someone that can – at least try to prevent the mass targeting of our star players…

    Ludicrous to rely on the NHL to protect our stars….

    Andrew Alberts played the whole game….WOW!.

  161. denny33 says:

    Woodguy,

    What about what the captain of the team said about Big Mac…..?

    An actual dissertation by a player goes a long way for me…..

  162. hunter1909 says:

    Funniest thing I’ve read since the Canuck/Kassian/Gagner’s broken jaw:

    Someone thinking the Kings and Sharks were going to police the division for the Oilers: who therefore could remain small, skilled, and looking at either the refs to protect them – from pre-season, through the regular season, all 82 games, plus the playoffs; the time of year when refs tend to stop calling much of anything.

    Har har har.

  163. denny33 says:

    Romulus Apotheosis,

    Ryan Jones was embarrassing Saturday night…..

    Struggled to dump the puck in even…..startling..

  164. hunter1909 says:

    Hilarious also: Today I’m in the minority. I totally agree with, and am cheering on the Oilers GM in Lowetide’s blog…

  165. Scotty LaDouche says:

    I didn’t see what happened in the game before the fiasco, but when they lined up for the faceoff, it didn’t exactly look like Kessel was acting like a choirboy and got jumped by a thug. It seemed to me he was beaking Scott, and thinking he was an ‘untouchable’ skill guy, even threw the first shove/punch, trusting that Scott wouldn’t dare break the unwritten code wrt skill guys.. Kessel chirped above his league, got called on it, and responded like a b****.

    If an incident identical to Kassians swing had, hypothetically, been caught on camera during a beer league game, resulting in lost teeth and broken jaw, would lawyers and police become involved, or is it just part of hockey, where actual laws do not apply?

  166. hunter1909 says:

    denny33: What about what the captain of the team said about Big Mac…..?

    With respect, Oilers currently haven’t got a captain.

    There’s no need to bring up that now Dallas Stars 6 million dollar bust either. Not now, not ever.

  167. denny33 says:

    Scotty LaDouche,

    You don’t have to worry about Kessel – the NHL and refs will ‘take care of it’….

  168. hunter1909 says:

    .75 ppg former Oiler and centreman Rob Schremp I’d bring in on a 1 year contract. Just for fun.

  169. hunter1909 says:

    They’re crazy if they don’t send Nurse back to junior. He nearly got killed last game. Let him go back to the OHL and think about that all season, which will really help develop his mean streak.

    Nucks showed that goon hockey is still alive and well, in the NHL.

    Brian Burke’s not going to be copying this also? He who is running a terrible, untalented bottom feeder hockey franchise?

  170. Scotty LaDouche says:

    Ok, I think I got it now….

    You’ll pry my enforcer out of my cold, dead hands.

    The only way to stop a bad coach with an enforcer, is a good coach with an enforcer.

    The only reason those players were hurt was because they were in an ‘enforcer free zone’.

    Mao took all of the enforcers from his people, and look what happened!

  171. Lucinius says:

    Kassian gets rest of pre-season and five games.

    Weiss gets just the rest of pre-season.

    According to Bob McKenzie.

  172. Woodguy says:

    Lucinius:
    The Scott thing, in my mind, was excellent hockey. it was not his fault Carlyle put the Kessel line out there when he knew what the Sabres wanted. He trotted out Kessel as the lamb to the slaughter and almost paid for it.

    As for Scott going after a skill guy? LOVE IT. One of the things I have always hated about the NHL was the idea that non-skill guys were not allowed to tussle with skill guys who didn’t have a penchant for dropping the gloves. Its hockey. Everyone is fair game so long as what you’re doing is legal — what Scott tried to do was within the bounds of the rules.

    Its something I want the Oilers to do. Kassian takes out Gagner? Have Brown or whomever try to beat the shit out of Horvat or a similar skill guy that’s playing. Ignore the dirty players — you cannot stop them because they refuse to engage and will always make the dirty split-second decision when it comes down to it, because that is who they are.

    Take it out on the other team’s skill guys — then the coach might reign in his dirty players because he realizes MAD is now in effect.. and unlike them you’re doing it within the bounds of the rules.

    That’s not hockey.

    I love violent sports.

    I grew up playing hockey, football and rugby.

    The test of sports is often a test of strength and endurance and compelling to watch.

    I appreciate that hockey has allowed fights as a “pressure release” lest someone use their stick to end a career or even a life.

    Tempers can get up when you are battling physically and the hockey fight has served a purpose over time.

    Scott trying to beat Kessel isn’t that, and it’s not close.

    Imagine if an Oakland D lineman gets fed up with the ass kicking the Broncos is going to lay on them and ripped off Peyton Manning’s helmet and started punching the shit out of him.

    Is that football?

    No.

    Scott dropping the gloves and trying to beat Kessel isn’( hockey either.

    It’s a perversion of hockey that has been growing since 1986 when the designated puncher started to gain acceptance in the game.

    It’s bullshit and the worst thing ever to happen to hockey.

    I love a good hockey fight.

    I hate goons.

  173. Woodguy says:

    denny33:
    Woodguy,

    What about what the captain of the team said about Big Mac…..?

    An actual dissertation by a player goes a long way for me…..

    The time before the waived him or the time before the let him walk in free agency?

    Pap for public consumption and a team mate having someone’s back isn’t how i’d make a decision.

  174. Lucinius says:

    Woodguy,

    You’re making it sound as if Kessel was some kind of wallflower. he lined up opposite Scott and was beaking with him. Why should he be untouchable? He’s on the ice and fighting is part of the game. Why should Scott not be allowed to go after a guy he’s lined up against that he’s beaking with, right after a moment in the game that had his team’s hackles up?

    If Scott throws first he gets an instigator. Kessel doesn’t have to engage (and didn’t, and in my mind he got some respect from me by being smart enough to get out of dodge until someone in his weight class showed up). of course, any respect he gained was lost when he went to spear Scott, who was being held by a ref, away from other players. That spear was far more ‘that’s not hockey’ to me than Scott trying (and failing) to catch a guy to engage him in a fight.

  175. prairieschooner says:

    Smac does nothing for functional toughness as he will not play enough to have an impact.

    In world conflict every country in the world knows that Israel will retaliate to any attack from anywhere.

    The only effective role I can see for Smac is to retaliate for any gooning by an opposing team. tough physical hockey is totally acceptable but teams have to learn that if you goon one of our stars we will goon one of yours into the morgue.

    Teams should also know that it may not be in that game either

  176. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    TSNBobMcKenzie: VAN’s Zack Kassian gets 5 regular season games and rest of pre-season for highsticking Gagner.

  177. spoiler says:

    Lucinius: Kassian gets rest of pre-season and five games.Weiss gets just the rest of pre-season.According to Bob McKenzie.

    As stated above, I would like to have seen more games handed out as a punishment for using a nothing game as an excuse to behave recklessly.

  178. BlacqueJacque says:

    spoiler,

    This league is a fucking joke. If they were serious about protecting star players, Weiss would be looking at 20 games for just the attempt at a headshot, and Kassian would be gone for 20. Regular season games. You know, the ones they get paid for.

    But no, whether it’s Sidney Crosby or Marc Savard, it doesn’t matter even if you’re a star, there’s no protection.

  179. Clarence Oveur says:

    I thought the Oilers had turned the corner this offseason, had learned that roster spots are too valuable to waste on someone who will only play 3-4 minutes per game.

    I thought wrong.

  180. spoiler says:

    BlacqueJacque: spoiler, This league is a fucking joke. If they were serious about protecting star players, Weiss would be looking at 20 games for just the attempt at a headshot, and Kassian would be gone for 20. Regular season games. You know, the ones they get paid for.But no, whether it’s Sidney Crosby or Marc Savard, it doesn’t matter even if you’re a star, there’s no protection.

    Agreed.

    My belief is that the league is a big proponent of parity (hence the Bettman point), and that they view this mess they have created as something that levels the playing field between the skilled and the lesser skilled.

    Despite the fact Wiese did not hurt Hall, his suspension should have been at least as large as Kassian’s, as Wiese’s act came with deliberate intent to injure the head. Waiting for acts to cause injury is just asking for the mess the league has created.

  181. hunter1909 says:

    “You need a deterrent”. MacT

    “He’s a nice weapon to have”. MacT on Steve MacIntyre

    “I’m sure Mr. MacIntyre will help the other team keep their sticks down”. Dallas Eakins

    “Definitely someone the other team talks about before the game”. Dallas Eakins on Steve MacIntyre

  182. Woodguy says:

    Lucinius:
    Woodguy,

    You’re making it sound as if Kessel was some kind of wallflower. he lined up opposite Scott and was beaking with him. Why should he be untouchable? He’s on the ice and fighting is part of the game. Why should Scott not be allowed to go after a guy he’s lined up against that he’s beaking with, right after a moment in the game that had his team’s hackles up?

    If Scott throws first he gets an instigator. Kessel doesn’t have to engage (and didn’t, and in my mind he got some respect from me by being smart enough to get out of dodge until someone in his weight class showed up). of course, any respect he gained was lost when he went to spear Scott, who was being held by a ref, away from other players. That spear was far more ‘that’s not hockey’ to me than Scott trying (and failing) to catch a guy to engage him in a fight.

    Scott has said that when he lined up against Kessel that he told him that, “you know we have to go”

    As for Kessel “beaking”, care to share the transcript?

    What you said is pretty much the opposite of what the players said happened.

  183. spoiler says:

    spoiler: Agreed.My belief is that the league is a big proponent of parity (hence the Bettman point), and that they view this mess they have created as something that levels the playing field between the skilled and the lesser skilled. Despite the fact Wiese did not hurt Hall, his suspension should have been at least as large as Kassian’s, as Wiese’s act came with deliberate intent to injure the head. Waiting for acts to cause injury is just asking for the mess the league has created.

    And the media seems complicit in the League’s choices. Why is some reporter not asking Savard about all this? The media could easily put a lot of pressure on the league. Bobcat McCowan and Damien Cox were coming down on the League during Bob’s radio show, but it needs a more concerted effort than that, and USA media fully engaged too.

  184. OilClog says:

    I pretty much disagree with it all, SMAC is going to make every player on this team bigger. Last time he was here this was a completely different team. We have the horses up front to hide SMAC on the bench until he is needed on the ice. If he only plays 3-5minutes a game but stops all the intentional running of our star players.. Hello SMAC!

    SMAC doesnt need to have a positive Corsi, doesn’t need to ever touch the puck, doesn’t need to do anything but enforce. Someone runs Hall, SMAC goes out and runs the goalie. It’s the only way this team is ever going to be tough to play against again. As it stands right now, no team in the league respects the Oilers and they do think they can bash our heads in as they please. Our Powerplay isn’t going to deter that when all our stars are on the IR. Harsh realities

  185. hunter1909 says:

    “You know your top centreman? He’s getting it next”. Dallas Eakins discusses tactical NHL hockey.

    Anyone Who Wishes to learn about NHL Hockey, Read These Quotes.

  186. spoiler says:

    hunter1909: “You need a deterrent”. MacT“He’s a nice weapon to have”. MacT on Steve MacIntyre“I’m sure Mr. MacIntyre will help the other team keep their sticks down”. Dallas Eakins“Definitely someone the other team talks about before the game”. Dallas Eakins on Steve MacIntyre

    They’re not really talking about a deterrant. They are talking about giving the players the confidence to be dirty themselves, knowing they have a response if their opponents take exception to the Oiler’s own bad behavior.

  187. spoiler says:

    The tweetbox is still frozen on June 11, so I’m going to say it…

    New Thread!

  188. hunter1909 says:

    OilClog: As it stands right now, no team in the league respects the Oilers and they do think they can bash our heads in as they please. Our Powerplay isn’t going to deter that when all our stars are on the IR. Harsh realities

    Lots of tears shed being today.

  189. Racki says:

    I don’t think I’d go so far as to say that MacIntyre will stop idiots like Kassian for tomahawking players in the face “by accident”(ly on purpose). However, he will satiate my desire to see some other team get a beat down when I’m watching Oilers games.

    People say he’s too slow to catch anyone. I’m not so sure Dustin Boyd felt the same way. I am wondering if Stoner felt that. What about the players involved in this mess? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hImezA0nbDU That’s goon hockey at its finest, and after seeing the Canucks kick sand in the Oilers face for too long, I think I’m quite fine with it now. All he needs is a faceoff / stoppage in play to get his message out there. Hell, he could run any player when they’re not expecting it.

    He’ll get suspended.. the team will have several penalties, but in the grand scheme of things it may end up doing some long term benefit. For once, maybe one of their dipshit players is out with an injury. I don’t typically condone that kind of play, but they don’t seem to have any problem injurying any Oilers. This is hockey, not bible class… I’m tired of the Oilers turning the other cheek and going the powerplay route. That one powerplay does sweet f— all compared to say Gagner being out for a month or two.

    The Oilers haven’t needed a super heavyweight in the past… they needed a guy that will go ballistic, Dave Semenko / Dave Brown style if something happens to one of our players. He needs to not fear suspensions. He needs to get the green light from the coach. Only then does this “enforcer” thing work (if even then, but I think it’s *possible*).

  190. stevezie says:

    Woodguy: I love a good hockey fight.

    I hate goons.

    100%. I think a good way to eliminate goons would be to start aggressively getting fighting out of junior hockey. No one spends years training for the role and teenagers probably don’t need to be getting punched in the head regularly anyway.

    Lucinius, has a point though. I don’t think the Peyton Manning analogy holds up perfectly. If Peyton walked over to a much bigger D lineman and started beaking him, and possibly had been doing so all game long, I think it changes things.

    I think my favourite thing about fighting in hockey is it makes hockey the one sport where you have to back everything up. Or at least it is supposed to.

    This another reason why I hate “the code”. Like most implied documents it is poorly written and makes no sense. It’s not right that Kessel gets beaten by a talentless thug with eighty pounds on him, but neither is it right for a little guy to run his mouth endlessly with assumed immunity because he is widely known to be unwilling to fight.

    When hockey fights are working as they should (which might be never) no one’s mouth is writing cheques their butt can’t cash.

    I remember when one of my acquaintances slept with one of our mutual friend’s gf and then refused to even talk about it because he didn’t want to get punched. You don’t want to get punched? Fine, that’s your right- but then you can’t do anything that warrants you a punch in the head. Pacifists aren’t allowed to taunt people.

    Kessel attacking Scott twice while he was being held down, and then claiming the moral high ground after he bloodied the only guy on the ice smaller than him makes him a hard man to sympathize with. If someone closer to his size jumps him during the next Leafs-Sabres games don’t look for me in the sympathy line.

  191. Clarence Oveur says:

    hunter1909:
    “You need a deterrent”. MacT

    “He’s a nice weapon to have”. MacT on Steve MacIntyre

    “I’m sure Mr. MacIntyre will help the other team keep their sticks down”. Dallas Eakins

    “Definitely someone the other team talks about before the game”. Dallas Eakins on SteveMacIntyre

    I really thought these two were smarter than that.

    This ain’t the 80s where you could grab someone and cave his face in. Hasn’t been that way for a while now.

  192. stevezie says:

    Woodguy,

    You’re right, we don’t know that Kessel said anything to Scott, and I have no problem writing off the first two swings as self defence. I applaud them in fact. However, he also swung a third time once Scott was held down, and then after the fray picked his stick back up and gave Scott a taunting spear while the larger man was restrained by refs. He was laughing and smiling at the bench.

    I don’t actually begrudge him his hatred for Scott. I think it’s fine, if he’s willing to back it up by following his society’s norms the next time someone his class comes calling.

  193. hunter1909 says:

    Clarence Oveur: I really thought these two were smarter than that.
    This ain’t the 80s where you could grab someone and cave his face in. Hasn’t been that way for a while now.

    I’m sure you know more about hockey than both the GM and head coach of the NHL Oilers.

    Thanks for the heads up.

  194. FastOil says:

    Is it any worse to have Mac I riding pine than Brown or Eager? They all suck and I hate watching our enforcer lose. Players are hesitant to fight him and not the other two because they can beat them.

    I think it hurts the team psyche to employee a enforcer that loses, seriously. It reinforces exactly the opposite of what you want.

  195. Racki says:

    FastOil:
    Is it any worse to have Mac I riding pine than Brown or Eager? They all suck and I hate watching our enforcer lose. Players are hesitant to fight him and not the other two because they can beat them.

    I think it hurts the team psyche to employee a enforcer that loses, seriously. It reinforces exactly the opposite of what you want.

    Eager doesn’t fight any more, but I don’t think Brown really loses much at all. Seems like at worst he comes out even or it’s a short scrap. He’s one some good ones. I like him for the light heavyweight class. I personally think our goon vs. their goon fights are useless. I like Big Mac though, as long as he’s used to punish the crap out of anyone that looks sideways at the Oilers stars.

    Brown’s fight vs. Weise wasn’t helpful at all though, so I would agree on something like that that it didn’t help much. We all want to see Weise in a bloody mess being carted off, I think. At least in that moment.

  196. Clarence Oveur says:

    hunter1909: I’m sure you know more about hockey than both the GM and head coach of the NHL Oilers.

    Thanks for the heads up.

    I know there’s plenty of evidence out there to support the opinion that enforcers don’t deter cheap shots and don’t protect star players.

    I also know from experience that running around and getting in fights doesn’t really prevent anything, it just perpetuates the cycle (I played and I did exactly that, and got my ass suspended plenty of times because of it).

    You’re welcome.

  197. Racki says:

    In my opinion (albeit one that is based off of watching far too many Don Cherry videos), Brown and others are needed for the fights in the moment or shortly there after. Brown can chase down a guy and invite him to “dance”.

    MacIntyre is around to hulk rage on the other team when they take a liberty on one of the Oilers. He doesn’t have to get even with the guy who did it.. just anyone. Send him out for the next faceoff, and let him go ballistic. Can’t worry about the powerplay or suspension that comes out of it.

    From that point on, Mac should victimize anyone on that team he can at an opportunity. He’ll get suspensions, but his salary minus suspensions in the NHL is still a fair bit higher than what he’d earn in the AHL.

  198. hunter1909 says:

    Clarence Oveur: I also know from experience that running around and getting in fights doesn’t really prevent anything, it just perpetuates the cycle (I played and I did exactly that, and got my ass suspended plenty of times because of it).

    Zach?

  199. hunter1909 says:

    Clarence Oveur,

    You certainly have an argument.

    Unfortunately for your argument, it falls at the first hurdle.

    My college rhetoric fades, but this is a red herring? Arguing something not actually being argued.

    You fight? I certainly wouldn’t be running off at the mouth like I’m doing to your face. I’d have to be respectful, lol.

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