A BRIDGE TOO FAR

A few days ago, I was a guest on Jason Strudwick’s show. I’m always interested in talking to Jason (he’ll be my guest at 3 this afternoon on TSN 1260) because he’s actually played the game at its highest level. He asked me how many (among Marincin, Klefbom, Nurse and possibly Ekblad) rookies I’d like to see manning the Oiler blue next season, and my answer was one: Martin Marincin. Why?

RickLeyIn the early 1970′s, the Leafs had a bunch of young defensemen growing up together. Jim Dorey, Jim McKenny, Rick Ley, Mike Pelyk, Brad Selwood, Brian Glennie and others were all kids together. This came on the heels of the team icing a group of old men like Allan Stanley, Tim Horton, Bob Baun, Carl Brewer and Larry Hillman, so the nation of Canada noticed (there was even a movie, Face-Off, which included on-ice footage and featured Jim McKenny).

Those kids, and Howie Meeker’s telestrator, taught me about young defensemen. Meeker would be featured between periods and say things like “KIDS, DON’T PLAY LIKE THE LEAFS!” in his excited voice. He would then painstakingly teach me about the game, why kids on defense could not be trusted, and what it meant to the results of the game. Meeker, who is one of the truly underrated people in the game’s history, would then show something positive about the Leafs (usually Keon, or maybe some new kid like Billy MacMillan making a good play) and that was Saturday when I was a kid.

petry7

 THE CURRENT OILERS BLUE

  • Justin Schultz, 70, 10-20-30. A 23-year old college defenseman who is mobile squared. Schultz at even strength this season (70, 9-11-20) has posted impressive numbers, but there’s too much chaos. Dallas Eakins is going to have to cut back his playing time at evens next season.
  • Jeff Petry, 76, 6-10-16. The 26-year old is Edmonton’s best defenseman full stop. The fanbase isn’t excited about him in a Tom Gilbert kind of way, but that doesn’t obscure the fact that he’s effective at hockey. I think he’s a legit top 4D, and that’s news on this team.
  • Martin Marincin, 40, 0-5-5. Just turned 22, and looks brilliant in 3D. Oilers could not have hand picked a better solution to their defensive woes, and the timing of his arrival was also brilliant. Marincin makes simple, intelligent plays, is a mobile player who can pass tape to tape and move the puck up expertly. His 40 games in the NHL expose the recent seasons of Oilers blue as fraudulent.
  • Andrew Ference, 75, 3-15-18. Ference is 35 years old and brings much needed experience to the team. He’s the opposite of Petry in that the ‘informed’ fans are on his back but the fanbase considers him to be quality. My own feeling is that Ference was a solid add, but the struggles of the team highlight a need for more, not fewer, of this player-type.
  • Anton Belov, 53, 1-6-7. Big Russian rookie is 27 and seems equipped with equal parts useful play and fatal shortcomings. He’s a frustrating mark, because 500 at-bats should be enough to figure out any player. Maybe MacT’s “if you have to ask the question” applies here.
  • Oscar Klefbom, 13, 1-2-3. The 20-year old defender seems to grow in stature with each game. Klefbom is very mobile and can close a gap in a heartbeat. He’s more effective with the puck than his boxscores in other leagues imply. If Struds asked me the same ‘how many?’ question after last night’s game I would change my answer to add Klef bomb. Then again, Rick Ley says hello.
  • Phil Larsen, 26, 3-6-9. 24-year old rover who I compared to Corey Potter in the summer, pointing to the fact that players with similar stats can be wildly different as actual players. Larsen is not going to be an effective NHL defenseman, but may have a role in an M-A Bergeron kind of way. He may also end up playing right wing—Larsen has been very effective late season in that role.
  • Mark Fraser, 38,1-1-2. 27-year old enforcer/defender hasn’t worked out at all. I’m reminded of the Ulanov rental period when he came over from Montreal that year, buddy couldn’t do a thing to help. Igor worked hard to get it back, maybe this guy will do the same. There was a time in this fair land when the Oilers could find a defenseman at midnight in a snowstorm. I don’t believe they have Midas in their scouting department these days, and suspect Fraser will not be welcomed back next year.

Une question d’une réponse

  • Strud’s question to you: How many of the kids (Marincin, Klefbom, Nurse, maybe Ekblad, Simpson et al) would you like to see on the opening night roster?

PS, Saturday Sports Extra is 3-5p today, after the Oil Kings broadcast. We’ll have Jason Strudwick, Paul Almeida from a soccer pitch in Spain, Corey Graham from the Oil Kings broadcasts and Steve Dangle from Leafs Nation to preview HNIC.

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204 Responses to "A BRIDGE TOO FAR"

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  1. Marcus Oilerius says:

    Sometimes I forget to head out into the world and talk Oilers outside of this blog, and then when I do, I finally run into the kind of fan who hates Petry.

    It’s going to be a real shame if the fans run him out of town the way they did with Gilbert and Poti.

    I don’t understand why Oilers brass doesn’t lay down the law with guys like Jones, Rishaug and Matheson, who take it upon themselves to foment unrest over good or serviceable players who don’t happen to play their style.

  2. Thinker says:

    I really don’t know about Petry. When I look at the numbers, he looks like a player, but every time I watch him he costs us a goal. I guess I’ve just seen him bad.
    I think defence is going to be a long project. We can’t bring rookies in next year, and the ufa crop is dreadful. Our best assets are underperforming, and quite frankly I don’t trust management.
    I would like to compliment MacT on the Holmberg move. It reminds me of Lombardi signing Linden Vey. He has a good chance to play in the bigs, but at the very least it was an intelligent move.

  3. Lowetide says:

    Thinker:
    I really don’t know about Petry. When I look at the numbers, he looks like a player, but every time I watch him he costs us a goal. I guess I’ve just seen him bad.
    I think defence is going to be a long project. We can’t bring rookies in next year, and the ufa crop is dreadful. Our best assets are underperforming, and quite frankly I don’t trust management.
    I would like to compliment MacT on the Holmberg move. It reminds me of Lombardi signing Linden Vey. He has a good chance to play in the bigs, but at the very least it was an intelligent move.

    I mentioned this on the Lowdown yesterday, but losing organizations often focus on what their best players CAN’T do. Petry might be an example. We’ll see. I’m a fan, imo he’s the best D on the team, but there seems to be a little smoke around him.

  4. RexLibris says:

    Answer: One. Marincin.

    For all the reasons that it would imply.

    It would mean that Klefbom hasn’t been perceived as a panacea. It would mean that the Oilers didn’t take Ekblad at the draft and went with a center instead. It would mean that there had been added a better option for the blueline sometime during the off-season.

    So, with those factors in consideration, just Marincin to start the season.

    By December I’d expect to see the situation revisited.

  5. RexLibris says:

    Thinker:
    I really don’t know about Petry. When I look at the numbers, he looks like a player, but every time I watch him he costs us a goal. I guess I’ve just seen him bad.
    I think defence is going to be a long project. We can’t bring rookies in next year, and the ufa crop is dreadful. Our best assets are underperforming, and quite frankly I don’t trust management.
    I would like to compliment MacT on the Holmberg move. It reminds me of Lombardi signing Linden Vey. He has a good chance to play in the bigs, but at the very least it was an intelligent move.

    I think one of the reasons that Petry “costs us a goal” is because he is a very good 2nd pairing defenseman who is having to play as a 1st pairing.

    Smith and Staios looked really good together but would occasionally “cost the team a goal”, but once Pronger and Spacek were added to the group those weaknesses seemed to disappear.

    It isn’t about Petry not being able to do something, but about him not being able to do everything.

    They don’t necessarily need another Jeff Petry, but they sure as heck can’t be getting rid of him unless it is for a clear 1st pairing defender. The minute this team loses Jeff Petry they’ll be looking for someone else just like him.

  6. Woodguy says:

    Bob was saying yesterday that in his mind the Oilers have their 3 LHD for next year in Marincin, Klef and Ference.

    Went on keep Shultz and Petry and the right side and add a Matt Greene type for 3RD.

    This is not what I’d like to see.

    That still has too many Dmen playing above their established NHL ability, which has been a HUGE problem for this team for years.

    There is nothing wrong with starting Klef as the 7D or even 8D (starting in OKC) and adding a good vet LHD (read:better than Ference) to give depth and stability to the left side for a year or two.

    Injuries happen and Klef will probably still spend most of the year in EDM even if he starts as 8D.

    As for the right side, EDM seems sold that Badger is the real deal.

    All the verbal both from the team and Bob has him in the “untouchable” category.

    That probably means there is no cavalry coming to push Petry and Shultz down to 2 & 3 RD.

    On my team I add a real NHL RD to push them down a notch, or at the very least give the coach an option if either of them isn’t on their game or injured.

    Matt Greene, who is a healthy scratch often, playing 2nd pair in EDM because one of Petry or Jultz is hurt is soooooo Because Oilers.

    So how many kids to start?

    One.

    Marincin, with Klefbom at the ready for the first injury.

    What will happen?

    Klef and Marincin will start the year with the Oilers.

    MacT said publically he wants to add a short term vet to fill out the D roster next year.

    The big question is: “1LHD/1RHD or 3RD?”

    MacT’s decision here might be the difference between meaningful games in March or not.

  7. godot10 says:

    Picking 3rd or 4th, I don’t think the Oilers have to worry about what to do with Ekblad. He won’t be there.

    I think you start the season with Schultz, Marincin, and Klefbom in the NHL. And Dillon Simpson and Oesterle in OKC. I’d sign Fedun to a two-year one way deal for the tweener role shuttling between Edmonton and OKC (I think he is waiver eligible.)

    Nurse is the wild card. Good problem to have. I like these kinds of problems.

    And run three fairly balanced pairings.

    Ference — sign or trade for a vet
    Marincin — Petry
    Klefbom — Schultz
    Belov or Matt Greene or some similar vet (NOT Fraser)

    Gernat — Fedun
    Simpson — Musil
    Oesterle – Hunt
    Davidson

    Lallegia should stay in college one more year and then he get Hunt’s contract next summer.

    If Gustafsson has potential, he should be tradeable for a later round draft pick.

  8. Caramel Obvious says:

    It’s amazing what subtracting Gazdic and Jones has done for the quality of the fourth line. What does it say that a defensemen who has past through waivers represents such a dramatic improvement of quality of play at the forward position.

    Philip Larsen is a hockey player. Skates like the wind, good puck skills, and battles hard. He should be on the team next year.

    As bad as this team has been this year I like most of the players on the current iteration. If you add three good hockey players to this group (four if you trade Gagner) I think you can win.

    Now adding three good players in a single offseason without subtracting anyone is a very hard thing to do. And if you start subtracting players then you need to add more than three good players because there is no surplus talent to trade.

    Plan A: offer sheet/trade for Subban + free agents
    Plan B: trade Gagner for Josi + free agents
    Plan C: sign free agents

    Those are the three paths that are open. A and B are better than C. C is more likely than A and B. Plan D of blowing up the roster is a bad plan.

  9. John Chambers says:

    The Oilers will either overpay for Markov or Niskanen, and also trade for a young D with potential.

    MacT is no dummy, and my guess is that Klef starts the season as no higher than the #7.

    I could see us with Markov and Byfuglien as our top-2 next season. It was a good good thing Smid was flushed when he was.

  10. Ducey says:

    I’d like to see Marincin only to start the season.

    Ekblad won’t be there when the Oilers draft at 4.

    My plan would be to keep Nurse in junior, and Klefbom on the farm as a call up around Jan 1.

    And most important, bring in an assistant coach who can teach the young players to play.

    Charlie Huddy could coach in a snowstorm.

    I don’t see defensemen making significant improvements in the NHL. In fact some regressed (Smid). Therefore replace Smith (and Buchy – what the F does he do anyway?). Bring in a Dman guru.

    Oh, and I wouldn’t mind see Larsen in a kind of 4th line winger/ PP defenseman role. As an extra player on the bench he could be very useful.

  11. Gino says:

    Keep Schultz, Petry, Ferance and Marincin cut loose the balance of Belov, Fraser, 2 way deal Larsen and Klefbom and Simpson start in OKC.
    Look to the UFA market or trade for 2 d.men with at least 400 games NHL experience.
    Let the kids mature in OKC.

  12. David says:

    Based on their play so far I would think that it is reasonable to think that Marincin and Klefbom could be positive pieces of our blue next year. In the limited play this year they have been the strengths not the weaknesses of our D. Or I’ll put it this way: the problem with the Oilers blue right now isn’t Marincin and Klefbom. They are the bright lights that are getting it done.

    I would go hard after Markov and Boyle in free agency definitely willing to over pay to land them. Or offer sheet Subban. Either way I’d have both Marincin and Klefbom with the big club barring poor preseasons,

  13. oliveoilers says:

    No doubt Alec Guinness’ finest movie.

  14. Gino says:

    By the way we don’t really need Ekblad with the crop of young D we have down the road. Trade the pick for real needs now. A top D or Centerman.

  15. oliveoilers says:

    oliveoilers:
    No doubt Alec Guinness’ finest movie.

    Wrong bridge, dumbass.

  16. Ben says:

    Assuming Eakins stays, my ‘dream’ assistant team: Huddy, Ramsay, Nelson

  17. Manitoba Oilers says:

    Gino:
    By the way we don’t really need Ekblad with the crop of young D we have down the road. Trade the pick for real needs now. A top D or Centerman.

    We have prospects but none are RD

  18. Lowetide says:

    oliveoilers: Wrong bridge, dumbass.

    Hahahahahahaha. I was just about to write a tasteful post about ‘Bridge On the River Kwai’ and then read this post. spit coffee. Ass! :-)

  19. Thinker says:

    RexLibris,

    I agree 100% Petry has what I call gagner syndrome. He isn’t good where he is, but trading him leaves a bigger hole. I’m not sure how you use Petry as part of a bigger deal, when the league is so starved for defence. In all likelihood, Petry will play over his head until a draft pick (current or future) arrives.

    I still think that schultz will establish himself as the best dman next year. Young players need big minutes to get established, especially dmen. Subban was a wreck defensively in his first few years.

  20. Marc says:

    LT

    You (and many others on here) seem to take it as read that there is a correlation between the amount of time a young D spends in the minors and the speed at which they become an effective Dman at the NHL level.

    Out of curiosity, has anyone done any work to check whether or not that is in fact true?

    It would seem logical, the Detroit model and all, but without verifying that there is such a correlation it’s a dangerous to assume that as a general rule, young D should be left in the minors as long as possible.

    An alternative theory would be that, as young D will need time to adjust to the speed etc of the NHL game regardless of how long they spend in the minors, it’s better to get the player into the NHL as soon as they are physically ready, so you can get those adjustment games over with and get an effective young Dman as quickly as possible.

    I have no idea which of these two approaches might be correct (if either is), but would be curious to know if anyone has seen any work in that would support one approach over the other.

  21. Esa10 says:

    How many? 2. Klefbom as a #7 and marincin as a regular

    If oilers do not get ekblad, which I don’t think they will,

    Expect the oilers to overpay for a right hand shot.

    My guess, oilers give niskanen a 6 mill over 6 years contract. Maybe longer!

    I hope mact signs a stop gap on the left side like a nikitin, fayne, or Quincy. But the oilers like shiny prospects so I’m going to guess our left side stays the same as this year. I hope not.

  22. TheOtherJohn says:

    We are 28th OV and the Oilers like the blue line it currently has. And we wonder why we have the worst organizations in the NHL.

    You cannot make this up.

    I would dress Marincin.. Klefbom gets another 45 games in OKC. We have zero clue how close the balance of our D prospects are.

    If the Oilers are signing a 3rd pairing D as an “add” to this roster another year goes by without the playoffs. It’s ok though because the new arena isn’t ready yet

  23. Gino says:

    Face-Off was a good movie for a Canadian production. It was cool to see Armstrong, Henderson and a very young Sittler in it as well as Hull, Howe and my favorite player other than Orr a moustached Derek Sanderson.

  24. Woodguy says:

    Tyler posted this last night on twitter during a conversation about the D:

    mc79hockey ‏@mc79hockey 11h
    @RomulusNotNuma I have a pet theory that soft pussy D who move the puck are the Scott Hattebergs of hockey. @Woodguy55 @mparkatti

    I think this is true as well.

    NHL GMs seem to over value size and “ability to clear the front of the net” at the expense of having the puck more than the other team.

    There has been a couple good posts on this recently, I can only find one:

    http://nhlstatsandopinions.wordpress.com/2014/03/21/evaluating-the-effectiveness-of-defensive-defensemen/

    The other post broke down all the D in the NHL into 3 categories. Offensive, Defensive and “mixed” (I think) if anyone can find it, that would be great.

    This not to say that size, strength, ability to clear the net are not desirable, of course they are.

    It is to say giving roster spots to that type of Dman who can break the cycle, but cannot pass at the expense of those who can break the cycle and pass hurts the team overall.

    It doesn’t take thunderous body checks to remove the man from the puck.

    Its fun to watch, makes you feel like the team you cheer for (or report on…..) is “tougher to play against”, but it doesn’t help the team win.

    Teams that beat you are tough to play against.

    Teams that make you skate miles and miles and chase they play because you never have the puck are tough to play against.

    Of course the ultimate is a player who is big, mean AND can make the good first pass, but they are rare and rarely available in trade.

  25. Mr DeBakey says:

    We have prospects but none are RD

    Sign Gilbert Gilbert!

    They are the bright lights that are getting it done.

    I don’t disagree entirely, but careful of the hyperbole.
    Phoenix’ second goal last night was all on Marincin; he lost the puck behind the net and then Chipchura was his man

    I’d like to see Marincin only to start the season.

    I’m here too.
    If nothing else its about organizational depth. Another constant over the recent past is running out of players after Christmas. Depth. Depth. Depth.

  26. Lowetide says:

    Marc:
    LT

    You (and many others on here) seem to take it as read that there is a correlation between the amount of time a young D spends in the minors and the speed at which they become an effective Dman at the NHL level.

    Out of curiosity, has anyone done any work to check whether or not that is in fact true?

    It would seem logical, the Detroit model and all, but without verifying that there is such a correlation it’s a dangerous to assume that as a general rule, young D should be left in the minors as long as possible.

    An alternative theory would be that, as young D will need time to adjust to the speed etc of the NHL game regardless of how long they spend in the minors, it’s better to get the player into the NHL as soon as they are physically ready, so you can get those adjustment games over with and get an effective young Dman as quickly as possible.

    I have no idea which of these two approaches might be correct (if either is), but would be curious to know if anyone has seen any work in that would support one approach over the other.

    I think (generally speaking) there are very few NHL defensemen who have played 40 games (at age 21) like we’ve seen from Marincin. The two things history tells us about defensemen is that:

    1. flying more sorties makes you better
    2. staying healthy is really difficult

    I think any study that looks at development would have to have a major eye on the injuries.

  27. spoiler says:

    LT said…

    Anton Below, 53, 1-6-7. 

    Was this on purpose, lol?

  28. speeds says:

    “My own feeling is that Ference was a solid add, but the struggles of the team highlight a need for more, not fewer, of this player-type.”

    Ference in particular is an interesting situation for the Oilers, IMO.

    He’s best suited as a 3rd pair D, MAYBE a 2nd if the rest of your D is pretty good. But the problem is that those spots, going forward, are probably ideally used for Klefbom, Marincin, and Nurse. Sure, you could move him over to the right side, but I’m not sure how effective he is there*? Even if he’s passable, you still might choose a cheaper option in a Larsen or Fedun (or someone else entirely), depending on what those guys might cost and whether Ference is movable.

    * Has anyone looked into Ference’s numbers depending on which side of the ice he’s playing on this year, I’m genuinely curious how those look?

  29. Gino says:

    TheOtherJohn:
    We are 28th OV and the Oilers like the blue line it currently has. And we wonder why we have the worst organizations in the NHL.

    You cannot make this up.

    I would dress Marincin.. Klefbom gets another 45 games in OKC. We have zero clue how close the balance of our D prospects are.

    If the Oilers are signing a 3rd pairing D as an “add” to this roster another year goes by without the playoffs. It’s ok though because the new arena isn’t ready yet

    If they like what they have this team is hooped again next year if they just sign another 3rd pairing D. NHL caliber D with a minimum of at least 5 years experience need to be added not kids and not projects like Belov, Grebeskov or Fraser.
    These are only short term fixes that don’t address the real problem we need men who can play against the Getzlafs, Perrys, Kopitars, Carters and Thortons in or division as our top pairing and bump everyone doen a notch – we need NHL level D.

  30. rich says:

    I’m constantly amazed at the number of people who want to run Petry off. Same ones who didn’t like Gilbert or Visnovsky I guess.

    You bring in a vet D (top pairing) and you solve a lot of problems on the blueline and you solve a lot of the issues with this team. If MacT could bring in a #1 and a #2, well, unicorns.

    But assuming they just bring in 1 vet, my sense is 2 of the kids – Marincin and Klefbom start the year in Edmonton. I would not be for Klefbom starting as a 7D – we’re better off sending him to OKC so he can play because that’s what he needs – ice time. Fraser should be cut lose, Simpson goes to OKC and Davidson is the emergency call-up. Larsen is 7D and Belov is elsewhere (KHL or another NHL team).

    Too bad Nurse has to go back to junior’s and can’t do the AHL, but that’s ok, it’s better than us having 3 kids to start on the blueline.

  31. Lowetide says:

    speeds:
    “My own feeling is that Ference was a solid add, but the struggles of the team highlight a need for more, not fewer, of this player-type.”

    Ference in particular is an interesting situation for the Oilers, IMO.

    He’s best suited as a 3rd pair D, MAYBE a 2nd if the rest of your D is pretty good.But the problem is that those spots, going forward, are probably ideally used for Klefbom, Marincin, and Nurse.Sure, you could move him over to the right side, but I’m not sure how effective he is there*?Even if he’s passable, you still might choose a cheaper option in a Larsen or Fedun (or someone else entirely), depending on what those guys might cost and whether Ference is movable.

    * Has anyone looked into Ference’s numbers depending on which side of the ice he’s playing on this year, I’m genuinely curious how those look?

    Tyler looked at RH side for Ference last summer, he was ineffective even with Chara iirc.

  32. godot10 says:

    Marincin has had a classically normal development path.

    Klefbom has been playing against men since he was seventeen…i.e. AHL type hockey.

    Nurse is that one that the Oilers have to be careful with.

  33. Caramel Obvious says:

    The talk of #1 vs. #3 defensemen is dramatically overblown. They all have the same job and the difference in level of competition isn’t that great. Petry is a good player. He’s the same player if you trade for Shea Weber. You haven’t magically made him better.

    Similarly, when looking for a RD this offseason you don’t have to get a #1 guy. It’s a term without meaning. Instead find the best guy you can. He isn’t made any worse because of the label you’ve applied to him.

    To act otherwise is to give mystical qualities to positions that do not exist. There are no specific attributes that a #1 D requires that a #4 D does not. They differ in degree not kind and hence drawing arbitrary hard lines between players makes it seem that players like Petry are worse than they are.

    Myself, I like Anton Stralman. He’s not a #1 D but that’s a term without meaning. He would be an improvement on what the Oilers have and that is all that matters.

  34. Woodguy says:

    I’ve posted this a ton in the last month or so, but in my mind it is very essential to the “new paradigm” in the NHL.

    Dave Tippett on Defensive Defensemen:

    “I’ll give you an example,” he said. “We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can’t move the puck.

    “Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn’t defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he’s making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he’s only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman.”

    Source: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2012/04/06/20120406phoenix-coyotes-dave-tippett-perfect-fit.html#ixzz2wvVWK5J4

    You’re starting to see articles on “why Canadian NHL teams aren’t winning”

    Most totally miss the most important issue.

    The Canadian teams are being built with some old thinking that is no longer true in today’s NHL.

    Remember when the MSM asked “What the hell is Doug Wilson doing trading his only physical Dman?????” when he dumped Murray on GM of The Year Shero?

    Wilson was ridding his team of a puck possesion black hole (got 2 2nds for the effort too!).

    Who plays on the Sharks back end?

    In order of 5v5 TOI/gm:

    Marc-Edouard Vlasic
    Justin Braun
    Dan Boyle
    Brad Stuart
    Matt Irwin
    Jason Demers
    Scott Hannan

    Are SJS fans screaming about Demers and Boyle turning over the puck?

    Are they screaming for “someone to hit someone!!”

    Is the local media crucifying Vlasic because he doesn’t rub his glove in guy’s faces after the whistle?

    No, no, and no.

    Why?

    They win.

    They have one hell of a forward group to pass to, but make no mistake, with the Oilers’ D for most of the year (read: Nultz being everyday 2LD) , the SJS forwards are probably battling for 11th-8th in the conference, maybe lower.

    The new paradigm that the better teams are following isn’t that new (see Islanders D during the dynasty) , but with the lack of obstruction (even if they allow some back in), puts a premium on breaking the cycle, skating the puck out of danger and making the good first pass.

    Off the glass and out, unless its an emergency, need not apply.

  35. Gino says:

    Caramel Obvious:
    The talk of #1 vs. #3 defensemen is dramatically overblown.They all have the same job and the difference in level of competition isn’t that great.Petry is a good player.He’s the same player if you trade for Shea Weber.You haven’t magically made him better.

    Similarly, when looking for a RD this offseason you don’t have to get a #1 guy.It’s a term without meaning.Instead find the best guy you can.He isn’t made any worse because of the label you’ve applied to him.

    To act otherwise is to give mystical qualities to positions that do not exist.There are no specific attributes that a #1 D requires that a #4 D does not.They differ in degree not kind and hence drawing arbitrary hard lines between players makes it seem that players like Petry are worse than they are.

    Myself, I like Anton Stralman.He’s not a #1 D but that’s a term without meaning.He would be an improvement on what the Oilers have and that is all that matters.

    I can agree with a lot of this we don’t need a Weber type we just need to add some more experience to the core and lets see what happens. If everyone gets bumped down that’s a bonus,

  36. Gino says:

    Woodguy:
    I’ve posted this a ton in the last month or so, but in my mind it is very essential to the “new paradigm” in the NHL.

    Dave Tippett on Defensive Defensemen:

    “I’ll give you an example,” he said. “We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can’t move the puck.


    “Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn’t defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he’s making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he’s only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman.”

    Source: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2012/04/06/20120406phoenix-coyotes-dave-tippett-perfect-fit.html#ixzz2wvVWK5J4

    You’re starting to see articles on “why Canadian NHL teams aren’t winning”

    Most totally miss the most important issue.

    The Canadian teams are being built with some old thinking that is no longer true in today’s NHL.

    Remember when the MSM asked “What the hell is Doug Wilson doing trading his only physical Dman?????” when he dumped Murray on GM of The Year Shero?

    Wilson was ridding his team of a puck possesion black hole (got 2 2nds for the effort too!).

    Who plays on the Sharks back end?

    In order of 5v5 TOI/gm:

    Marc-Edouard Vlasic
    Justin Braun
    Dan Boyle
    Brad Stuart
    Matt Irwin
    Jason Demers
    Scott Hannan

    Are SJS fans screaming about Demers and Boyle turning over the puck?

    Are they screaming for “someone to hit someone!!”

    Is the local media crucifying Vlasic because he doesn’t rub his glove in guy’s faces after the whistle?

    No, no, and no.

    Why?

    They win.

    They have one hell of a forward group to pass to, but make no mistake, with the Oilers’ D for most of the year (read: Nultz being everyday 2LD) , the SJS forwards are probably battling for 11th-8th in the conference, maybe lower.

    The new paradigm that the better teams are following isn’t that new (see Islanders D during the dynasty) , but with the lack of obstruction (even if they allow some back in), puts a premium on breaking the cycle, skating the puck out of danger and making the good first pass.

    Off the glass and out, unless its an emergency, need not apply.

    And this whole Shark D core can move the puck and skate. Belov, Fraser and even Ferance you have to admit are not a fleet footed bunch.

  37. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Apparently Evander Kane is scratched tonight. So… there’s that.

    gather your best trade proposals.

  38. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    oliveoilers:
    No doubt Alec Guinness’ finest movie.

    Oh, good god man watch the Ealing comedies.

  39. Hammers says:

    For me , forget Ekblad and hope Garnat turns out like Marincin . Next year 2 of Nurse , Klefbom & Marincin will make it . Add Schultz , Petry & Ference . So 5 + 1 very good experienced “D” . Belov could handle #7 & Larsen #8 .

  40. speeds says:

    Caramel Obvious:
    The talk of #1 vs. #3 defensemen is dramatically overblown.They all have the same job and the difference in level of competition isn’t that great.Petry is a good player.He’s the same player if you trade for Shea Weber.You haven’t magically made him better.

    Similarly, when looking for a RD this offseason you don’t have to get a #1 guy.It’s a term without meaning.Instead find the best guy you can.He isn’t made any worse because of the label you’ve applied to him.

    To act otherwise is to give mystical qualities to positions that do not exist.There are no specific attributes that a #1 D requires that a #4 D does not.They differ in degree not kind and hence drawing arbitrary hard lines between players makes it seem that players like Petry are worse than they are.

    Myself, I like Anton Stralman.He’s not a #1 D but that’s a term without meaning.He would be an improvement on what the Oilers have and that is all that matters.

    You haven’t actually improved him as a player, but he will likely “look” better because he would likely be playing in more favorable circumstances.

    As a general philosophy, I think the Oilers might be better to try to improve to a passable D vs. an excellent D via trades and free agents this summer. What I mean by that isn’t that you don’t acquire the best players possible, of course you do, but you temper your aggressiveness because of the young players coming, the potential cap costs and term involved in signing UFA’s, the team’s needs (IMO) at F, and the likely trade cost in terms of current players/picks involved in trading for D.

  41. speeds says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    Apparently Evander Kane is scratched tonight. So… there’s that.

    gather your best trade proposals.

    Schultz, Gagner + ??? for Kane and Byfuglien

  42. Andy P says:

    Thinker:
    I really don’t know about Petry. When I look at the numbers, he looks like a player, but every time I watch him he costs us a goal. I guess I’ve just seen him bad.
    I think defence is going to be a long project. We can’t bring rookies in next year, and the ufa crop is dreadful. Our best assets are underperforming, and quite frankly I don’t trust management.
    I would like to compliment MacT on the Holmberg move. It reminds me of Lombardi signing Linden Vey. He has a good chance to play in the bigs, but at the very least it was an intelligent move.

    “Our best assets are underperforming”
    You’ve nailed it right there. Now, ask yourself the question, how badly our defence has performed since Steve Smith arrived……

    I believe that MacT is doing all he can reasonably be expected to do withing the constraints of this market.

    I believe we will take a quantum leap forward if we hire competent Offense and Defense assistants and a competent Goalie Coach.

  43. Gino says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    BTW, I wrote this, this morning… give it a read

    http://www.coppernblue.com/2014/4/5/5584546/best-farm-practices-mactavish-and-green-on-the-move

    Good read, you can see Bob Green’s stamp on the recent OKC adds from the CHL.

  44. Hammers says:

    Nurse will start the season and get his 9 games over maybe 11-12 Oiler games . Once back to junior expect Klefbom to come up from OKL .Regarding Petry he could play 1st pairing minutes if he is with a true top 2 “D” . So Petry & X ; Schultz & Marincin ; Ference & Nurse to start then Klef . Belov #7 as he can play both sides . Larsen as #8 for both “D” and 4th line winger . How to get the top “D” I still say our 1st rd pick + Gags

  45. rickithebear says:

    Young? Old?
    How many can prevent EVGA and PKGA.
    Current D.Comp EVGA ZS and PKGA near or below avg
    Marincin 1st 2.14 44.6% 5.80 PKGA
    Ference 1st 2.94 43.9% 6.53 PKGA
    Petry 1st 3.21 42..7% 6.48 PKGA
    Klefbom 1st/2nd 2.59 38.0% not enough minutes to tell but 0 goals on PK.
    J. schultz 2nd 2.84 46.7% 2.87 PKGA
    Larsen 2nd 2.84 45.6%
    Fraser 3rd 2.64 39.5%

    Marincin top 10 +/- Dman in AHL,
    One of the better Tough Comp DMen this year!
    Strong PK.
    Good puck Movement.
    YES

    Klefbom
    WJC allstar Dman.
    Lead the SEL D in +/- before injury.
    Below league Avg EVGA when facing tough Comp.
    Well above League AVG EVGA facing soft comp with Fraser.
    No GA on PK
    Strong Puck Movement.
    YES

    Ference
    top 60 EVP and EVA Dman
    1st Comp league average EVGA.
    Then a marked increase in EVGA.
    WAS playing with tore PEC.
    How long?
    YES

    J. Schultz
    Top 5 EVG top 15 G; Top 40 Pt; EVP
    2nd comp improved from 3.49 to 2.84 EVGA last half of season
    Playing around 2.19 EVGA/60 last half.
    #8 PKGA Dman in Game
    YES

    Petry YES!

    Performance before Age!.

  46. icecastles says:

    Lowetide: I mentioned this on the Lowdown yesterday, but losing organizations often focus on what their best players CAN’T do.

    I need to put this quote up somewhere and reread it every day. Such good advice, so easily forgotten, and so applicable in so many areas.

  47. icecastles says:

    Gino: I can agree with a lot of this we don’t need a Weber type we just need to add some more experience to the core and lets see what happens. If everyone gets bumped down that’s a bonus,

    There’s no team in the NHL that doesn’t need a Weber type. If they have one, they need another one. You need good players. Full stop.

    The more gooderer they are, more morer you need them.

    Probably not really the point you were making but I have been at work for 5 hours already and ate a box of oreos for breakfast. I’m not myself.

  48. Esa10 says:

    speeds,

    Gagner, yak, 3rd overall, prospect
    For
    Kane, byfuglin, burmistrov

  49. Bank Shot says:

    Woodguy:
    Tyler posted this last night on twitter during a conversation about the D:

    mc79hockey ‏@mc79hockey11h
    @RomulusNotNuma I have a pet theory that soft pussy D who move the puck are the Scott Hattebergs of hockey. @Woodguy55 @mparkatti

    I think this is true as well.

    NHL GMs seem to over value size and “ability to clear the front of the net” at the expense of having the puck more than the other team.

    Is that really true though?

    Seems like a lot of NHL GM’s were willing to give Matt Gilroy a chance but if you are a soft, offensive defenseman that doesn’t get results you get turfed from the league once they realize you can’t fulfill your potential.

    David Rundblad is on his fourth organization and still getting opportunities. Are these guys really getting the shaft?

    If the hypothesis that NHL GM’s undervalue small/soft offensive defensemen is true, then that means there should be a large surplus of quality veteran offensive defensemen playing in Europe and the AHL that could step into the NHL and be quality contributors.

    When is the last time that happened?

    I look at the KHL and the AHL and I really don’t see the pure talent screaming off the stats page. The Oilers picked up one of Russia’s top offensive Defensemen in Anton Belov and he hasn’t shown much of anything at the NHL level.

    Should the OIlers recall Brad Hunt?

    Sure there are a lot of fans and media that don’t like soft players, but there are a lot of fans that don’t like useless goons as well. I don’t see a smoking gun that shows NHL GMs and coaches are discriminating against soft, offensive Defensemen.

  50. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Gino: Good read, you can see Bob Green’s stamp on the recent OKC adds from the CHL.

    thanks!

    yea. Bob Green is key and the position created for him seems like a really important role for future NHL teams.

  51. Gino says:

    Hammers:
    Nurse will start the season and get his 9 games over maybe 11-12 Oiler games . Once back to junior expect Klefbom to come up from OKL .Regarding Petry he could play 1st pairing minutes if he is with a true top 2 “D” . So Petry & X ; Schultz & Marincin ; Ference & Nurse to start then Klef . Belov #7 as he can play both sides . Larsen as #8 for both “D” and 4th line winger . How to get the top “D” I still say our 1st rd pick + Gags

    Nurse should not even be thought of as someone starting a game on this blue line. I hope he has a good camp and then send him back to junior. Klefbom should play in OKC and only should be available as an emergency call up. As for Petry with his less than 250 games in the NHL we shouldn’t be asking for him to be in our top pairing if at all possible. We have to sign or trade for a true experienced pair for our top pairing minute crunchers or we will see the same thing next year such as being outshot and out played in our own end. How we get a pair of top D is up to Mac T. because we have the means, a top 3 / 4 pick with value and players with value and also the cap space. By doing these moves will not only improve but will change the dynamic of this team big time.

  52. Gino says:

    icecastles: There’s no team in the NHL that doesn’t need a Weber type. If they have one, they need another one. You need good players. Full stop.

    The more gooderer they are, more morer you need them.

    Probably not really the point you were making but I have been at work for 5 hours already and ate a box of oreos for breakfast. I’m not myself.

    Understood, I’m just waiting for the wife to whip up some leftovers for lunch as well as I’m getting a little cranky.

  53. Bank Shot says:

    The Oilers should go into the offseason looking to acquire as many quality NHL defensemen as possible.

    They should not, They should not hold a spot for ANY of their own young defencemen. If they can go out and somehow get 3-4 quality NHL defencemen then Marincin can get sent down for all I care.

    If you look at the top 4-5 defences in the West, Marinicin wouldn’t be playing on them anyway.

    If you can only get a couple of quality NHL defencemen then I’m ok with having Marincin on the team.

    I’m not ok with anymore youngsters then that as I believe if you can’t acquire enough real NHLers to keep Klefbom and Nurse off the team then you really aren’t even trying.

  54. frjohnk says:

    The crop of UFA D men, is lacklustre, not much for top end, and not much depth in top 4 players. By my count there are about 8 UFA’s that could play top 4 next year. I don’t think we will able to sign a top 4 D man, unless we overpay in term and/or money.

    It would be better if we could trade for 1 or 2 more top 4 D, but if that does not happen, we could see next year

    Marincin/Petry
    Klefbom/Schultz
    Ference/???????

    3 years down the road, I think that is a nice top 4, but now…..ughhh, growing pains.

  55. Lowetide says:

    Bank Shot: Is that really true though?

    Seems like a lot of NHL GM’s were willing to give Matt Gilroy a chance but if you are a soft, offensive defenseman that doesn’t getresults you get turfed from the league once they realize you can’t fulfill your potential.

    David Rundblad is on his fourth organization and still getting opportunities. Are these guys really getting the shaft?

    If the hypothesis that NHL GM’s undervalue small/soft offensive defensemen is true, then that means there should be a large surplus of quality veteran offensive defensemen playing in Europe and the AHL that could step into the NHL and be quality contributors.

    When is the last time that happened?

    I look at the KHL and the AHL and I really don’t see the pure talent screaming off the stats page. The Oilers picked up one of Russia’s top offensive Defensemen in Anton Belov and he hasn’t shown much of anything at the NHL level.

    Should the OIlers recall Brad Hunt?

    I think we can all agree that ‘player-type’ and ‘level of talent’ are two different things. Brad Hunt’s career path says more about Brad Hunt than it does about bias toward his player-type.

  56. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Lowetide: I think we can all agree that ‘player-type’ and ‘level of talent’ are two different things. Brad Hunt’s career path says more about Brad Hunt than it does about bias toward his player-type.

    This…

    but, while we’re at it, after seeing the Barons give Lavoie another PTO, I think it is worth remembering that for a lot of hockey players getting to play consistently at the AHL level is a big deal. These are success stories too. And, Hunt is an amazing one, really:

    http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=712840

  57. regwald says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    Apparently Evander Kane is scratched tonight. So… there’s that.

    gather your best trade proposals.

    Tyler tweeted that there were a few tweets about Kane was seen at courtside at the Raptors game last night having beers.

    Coincidence ?

  58. frjohnk says:

    Lowtide,
    On your show yesterday, you mentioned, or somebody mentioned instead of trading Eberle, the oilers should look at trading Perron for a D man or Centerman. The reasoning behind this was for two reasons, 1. Perron is two years from UFA. 2. Trading Eberle could have an affect on Hall and some of the fan base. When that line of RNH, Hall and Eberle are at the top of their game, they are one of the best lines in the game. Their chemistry can be magic. Games against the Ducks and Sharks this week are proof.

    Perron has a 3.8M dollar cap hit for the next two years. That is extreme value for a player of his stature. I really like Perron and I believe we could use more players like him on this team. But if there is a sense that he won’t sign here, then he could be nice trade bait in a package this summer and get a nice piece back like a top 4 d man or 2nd line center.

  59. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    regwald: Tyler tweeted that there were a few tweets about Kane was seen at courtside at the Raptors game last night having beers.

    Coincidence ?

    Yea. It came up this afternoon too…

    I don’t know. It would be weird if he were scratched for being seen with a beer… if he was hungover? maybe.

    whole situation is nuts.

  60. FastOil says:

    Petry and Schulz are finesse players. I think they would both flourish with a competent bigger partner with more of a physical game. Like Smid but can pass and think at a high enough level. If they were seen as tough all the better to calm things down against teams that try to intimidate like the Blues.

    It’s probably a lot easier to acquire or sign a second tier type of player, and it could still create effective pairings and give the coach some options and different looks for different teams, that could like, actually play hockey.

    I am reading The Game right now and agree that a team is best made up of a group of players with varying talents, all of course competent at least, to be able to play any team, any style, and have a chance to win. And to keep a balance of youth and experience at various stages of their careers. Like the old timey Oilers.

    EDIT: Marincin has been a gift, but I think he’s still too young and skinny to give Petry and Shulz the right compliment to help them play their best, so I’d like to see him on a killer 3rd pairing.

    If Ference can’t handle his off side at 3rd I wonder if they really should buy him out.

  61. v4ance says:

    Caramel Obvious:

    Plan A: offer sheet/trade for Subban + free agents

    We don’t have our 3rd round pick next year unless we get it back from Anaheim (Fasth trade)

  62. Bank Shot says:

    Lowetide: I think we can all agree that ‘player-type’ and ‘level of talent’ are two different things. Brad Hunt’s career path says more about Brad Hunt than it does about bias toward his player-type.

    Granted, but if there is a systemic undervaluing of the “soft/offensive Defenseman” player type then we should expect to see more of these players stuck in the minors and Europe shouldn’t we?

    We don’t really see it though. We see guys like Brad Hunt are some of the top AHL defenders.

    We see guys like Justin Schultz getting a huge push in ice time even though he’s terrible in every aspect except offence.

  63. Chris says:

    Right handed defenseman who are are available potentially and play more than 20 minutes a game from the UFA list..

    Matt Niskanen Age 27 presumably looking for a big raise from 2.5 million

    Marek Zidlicky Age 37 making 3 million plus bonuses

    Dan Boyle Age 37 making 6.66 million

    Tom Gilbert Age 31 making 0.9 mill

    To be blunt this is a pretty short list. Basically unless you think Zidlicky or Dan Boyle are ageless wonders like JJ, its either welcome home Tom Gilbert or sending a Katz Brink truck to Niskanen on the free agent market presuming none of these players are resigned.

  64. Lowetide says:

    Bank Shot: Granted, but if there is a systemic undervaluing of the “soft/offensive Defenseman” player type then we should expect to see more of these players stuck in the minors and Europe shouldn’t we?

    We don’t really see it though. We see guys like Brad Hunt are some of the top AHL defenders.

    We see guys like Justin Schultz getting a huge push in ice time even though he’s terrible in every aspect except offence.

    I’m not sure that proves anything. Talented players rise to the top, no matter the player-type. Brian Rafalski went to Finland for a few seasons, still found his way. Player-type bias can be argued, but proven? I think it’s in the eye of the beholder.

  65. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Carter Baum ‏@CarterBaum 16m
    Todd Nelson said after morning skate that Khaira, Chase, C. Jones, K. Jones and Oesterle will all play. Horak will be back.#OKCBarons

  66. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Lowetide: Player-type bias can be argued, but proven? I think it’s in the eye of the beholder.

    Do you really think that?

    Why does Murray play so much and Subban doesn’t?

  67. speeds says:

    SSM is down 2-0 heading to Erie. Fair to imagine EDM would send Nurse to OKC if Erie wins that series?

  68. rickithebear says:

    Name me one UFA Dman that faces 1st comp and has a better EVGA than Marincin.

  69. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    speeds:
    SSM is down 2-0 heading to Erie. Fair to imagine EDM would send Nurse to OKC if Erie wins that series?

    where are they in the standings?

    and, yes, I’d imagine they would

  70. Bank Shot says:

    Lowetide: I’m not sure that proves anything. Talented players rise to the top, no matter the player-type. Brian Rafalski went to Finland for a few seasons, still found his way. Player-type bias can be argued, but proven? I think it’s in the eye of the beholder.

    Agreed unless you are part of the Oilers management staff.

    In that case there is a proven case of favouring prospects and marginal NHLers over good NHLers going back to about 2006/2007. :)

  71. Pouzar says:

    rickithebear:
    Name me one UFA Dman that faces 1st comp and has a better EVGA than Marincin.

    +1

    Like I said before, if we have 5 better d-men than Marincin next we’ll be in the playoffs in a heartbeat.

  72. regwald says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: Yea. It came up this afternoon too…

    I don’t know. It would be weird if he were scratched for being seen with a beer… if he was hungover? maybe.

    whole situation is nuts.

    It does seem like a flammable situation. Stories about bad judgement by Kane (many different stories) and strange handling by the Jet (in response to Kane behaviour ?). Seems like a kid writing his ticket out of town.

  73. regwald says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    Carter Baum ‏@CarterBaum16m
    Todd Nelson said after morning skate that Khaira, Chase, C. Jones, K. Jones and Oesterle will all play. Horak will be back.#OKCBarons

    Wow, that’s a lot of young players in the line up. Initiation by fire. I know they have been lacking scoring, so maybe this is his answer ? or direction from MacT to ensure all the new signed players get ice ?

  74. Woodguy says:

    Caramel Obvious,

    The talk of #1 vs. #3 defensemen is dramatically overblown. They all have the same job and the difference in level of competition isn’t that great.

    I disagree with this.

    You are right that most players see most other players on the ice, especially the top 4 D, but there are significant differences.

    The difference is most pronounced at home when the coach has last change.

    Not all coaches match forward lines, but most coaches try to have their “#1 D pair” out against the opposition’s best, especially at home with last change.

    Conversely, the coach will try to get his best line away from the opposition’s best D pair, especially at home with last change.

    Here are two good examples:

    Last night’s EDM/PHX game.

    Hall had 19min of 5v5 time and here is who he saw (in terms of Dmen) in that 19min:

    Michalek – 15min
    OEL – 15min
    Morris – 2.8min
    Summers – 2.7min
    Yandle – 1.8min
    Stone – 1.7min

    Its pretty clear that OEL and Michalek had the toughest row to hoe. They actually won the battle and kept Hall to 35%CF.

    If we look at PHX’s extra skater QC metric for Dmen for the year we see:

    OEL 29.9%
    Michalek 29.9%
    Murphy 28.8%
    Morris 28.4%
    Yandle 28.3%
    Stone 28.2%
    Summers 28.0%

    They don’t look too far apart in this metric, but in practice the gulf can be quite wide.

    The same night WAS played at NJD.

    Ovechkin had 15.8 min 5v5 time.

    During that time he saw:

    Greene – 11.6min
    Fayne – 9.7min
    Harrold – 3.0min
    Larrson – 2.1min
    Zidlicky – 1.9min
    Gelinas – 1.9min
    Volchenkov – 1.8min

    Again, its clear that Greene and Fayne have much tougher minutes that the other D on the ice.

    Their Extraskater QC stats line up as close as the PHX defenders.

    I think the fancystats QC metrics lose some nuance that is actually present in Quality of Comp.

    1st pairing D see the opposition’s best as often as their coach can make it happen, and the best line on most NHL teams is significantly better than the 2nd line of most NHL teams, and miles ahead of the other 2 in terms of being able to generate offence, quality of the players and being tough to play against.

  75. Lowetide says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    Lowetide: Player-type bias can be argued, but proven? I think it’s in the eye of the beholder.
    Do you really think that?

    Sure. That’s a dummy coach who deserves to be fired. There ARE examples of players who should have been in the NHL (Guyle Fielder) and were not, but I can’t think of too many NHL calibre players who have spent the heart of their career outside the NHL because of bias.

    Free agency solved that problem..

  76. Lowetide says:

    Bank Shot: Agreed unless you are part of the Oilers management staff.

    In that case there is a proven case offavouring prospects and marginal NHLers over good NHLers going back to about 2006/2007. :)

    Yeah, agreed. Some of that is on the player though. Pouliot had a helluva chance

  77. sliderule says:

    I went to the game last night with my kids.
    I always like to see warmup so we were early.
    I don’t know what the ice was like or what Nuge had for lunch but he toe picked and fell down twice in the warmup.the whole Coyotes team was doing static stretching which surprised me as that’s a no no in warmups today.Everything should be dynamic.
    At any rate the game
    Schultz had a good game but Klefbom was the best oiler D.I kept track of Bom when he was not directly involved and he is thinking the game well and uses his great skating to keep his gaps right.
    Marincin was not as good but it looks like he has some injury as he missed a couple of shifts and looked like his upper body was bothering him.
    Gagner looks like he is fighting an injury.A couple of times he left the ice in pain and I thought he might be done.He is tough as he kept coming out even though he stopped taking many face offs.
    Eberle had the best game of the oiler forwards and had the most jump
    The only bottom six forward that impressed me was Larsen.He skated his but off and even made a couple of hits.May I say Cogliano lite.
    I haven’t seen the oilers live for a few years and I have to say I had forgotten how much you pick up away from the play that is not on Tv.

  78. Woodguy says:

    Bank Shot: Is that really true though?

    Seems like a lot of NHL GM’s were willing to give Matt Gilroy a chance but if you are a soft, offensive defenseman that doesn’t getresults you get turfed from the league once they realize you can’t fulfill your potential.

    David Rundblad is on his fourth organization and still getting opportunities. Are these guys really getting the shaft?

    If the hypothesis that NHL GM’s undervalue small/soft offensive defensemen is true, then that means there should be a large surplus of quality veteran offensive defensemen playing in Europe and the AHL that could step into the NHL and be quality contributors.

    When is the last time that happened?

    I look at the KHL and the AHL and I really don’t see the pure talent screaming off the stats page. The Oilers picked up one of Russia’s top offensive Defensemen in Anton Belov and he hasn’t shown much of anything at the NHL level.

    Should the OIlers recall Brad Hunt?

    Sure there are a lot of fans and media that don’t like soft players, but there are a lot of fans that don’t like useless goons as well. I don’t see a smoking gun that shows NHL GMs and coaches are discriminating against soft, offensive Defensemen.

    The notion is necessarily that these players don’t have jobs, its that their contribution, and therefore salary are undervalued.

    Another part of being undervalued is being freely available in trade.

    Diaz gets traded for Weise (who’s type is always available) and Murray gets his ice time.
    Gilbert and Hainsey have to sign PTO to get jobs and each gets a 1 year contract.
    Reghr gets more TOI than Martinez

    The list of this of inefficiency manifesting itself is quite large if you take time to look at how many (not all) NHL teams deploy their D and who they hire for their D.

  79. Woodguy says:

    frjohnk:
    Lowtide,
    On your show yesterday, you mentioned, or somebody mentioned instead of trading Eberle, the oilers should look at trading Perron for a D man or Centerman.The reasoning behind this was for two reasons, 1.Perron is two years from UFA.2.Trading Eberle could have an affect on Hall and some of the fan base.When that line of RNH, Hall and Eberle are at the top of their game, they are one of the best lines in the game.Their chemistry can be magic.Games against the Ducks and Sharks this week are proof.

    Perron has a 3.8M dollar cap hit for the next two years.That is extreme value for a player of his stature.I really like Perron and I believe we could use more players like him on this team.But if there is a sense that he won’t sign here, thenhe could be nice trade bait in a package this summer and get a nice piece back like a top 4 d man or 2nd line center.

    CBJ has C’s that the Oilers could use (Anisimov/Dubinksy)

    Kekalinen was STL’s Head Scout when they drafted Perron.

    Discuss.

  80. Woodguy says:

    Bank Shot: Granted, but if there is a systemic undervaluing of the “soft/offensive Defenseman” player type then we should expect to see more of these players stuck in the minors and Europe shouldn’t we?

    We don’t really see it though. We see guys like Brad Hunt are some of the top AHL defenders.

    We see guys like Justin Schultz getting a huge push in ice time even though he’s terrible in every aspect except offence.

    The inefficiency can manifest it self in many ways.

    Who holds NHL jobs is just one way.

    You would also need to be intensely aware of the ability of every AHL Dman to say conclusively “we don’t see that”

    We don’t know.

    What we do know is that we can see the inefficiency in the NHL in many ways.

  81. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Lowetide: Sure. That’s a dummy coach who deserves to be fired. There ARE examples of players who should have been in the NHL (Guyle Fielder) and were not, but I can’t think of too many NHL calibre players who have spent the heart of their career outside the NHL because of bias.

    Free agency solved that problem..

    Oh, sure.

    I didn’t realize the question was are good puck moving D being left out of the NHL etc.

    I thought you were contesting the idea that to a still surprising degree puck moving D get slighted in a variety of ways

  82. Marcus Oilerius says:

    Hope the Oilers sign Cody Corbett. Kid’s got a good fighting name, a Royal Navy name of centuries of tradition.

  83. Lowetide says:

    Marcus Oilerius:
    Hope the Oilers sign Cody Corbett.Kid’s got a good fighting name, a Royal Navy name of centuries of tradition.

    Signed with Avs

    http://www.milehighhockey.com/2014/3/5/5473970/avalanche-sign-undrafted-defenseman-cody-corbett

  84. Lowetide says:

    Woodguy: The notion is necessarily that these players don’t have jobs, its that their contribution, and therefore salary are undervalued.

    Another part of being undervalued is being freely available in trade.

    Diaz gets traded for Weise (who’s type is always available) and Murray gets his ice time.
    Gilbert and Hainsey have to sign PTO to get jobs and each gets a 1 year contract.
    Reghr gets more TOI than Martinez

    The list of this of inefficiency manifesting itself is quite large if you take time to look at how many (not all) NHL teams deploy their D and who they hire for their D.

    Jesus Alou. That’s Doug Murray.

  85. Lowetide says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: Oh, sure.

    I didn’t realize the question was are good puck moving D being left out of the NHL etc.

    I thought you were contesting the idea that to a still surprising degree puck moving D get slighted in a variety of ways

    Sure, lots of guys get crushed in many different ways. OTOH, I saw most of Taylor Chorney’s career and sometimes these player types get too much time. Or at least too early.

  86. LMHF#1 says:

    Marcus Oilerius:
    Hope the Oilers sign Cody Corbett.Kid’s got a good fighting name, a Royal Navy name of centuries of tradition.

    Too late. Signed with the Avalanche.

  87. LMHF#1 says:

    Off the glass and out is dead except in the world of Dallas Eakins. His team whips the puck around the boards to the other team more than any sad sack squad I’ve seen.

    I hope the D is good enough next year that they simply ignore him, but #1 cheerleader Andrew Ference will still be here, making passes to the Boston Pizza ad.

  88. Jasmine says:

    sliderule:
    I went to the game last night with my kids.I always like to see warmup so we were early.
    I don’t know what the ice was like or what Nuge had for lunch but he toepicked and fell down twice in the warmup.the whole Coyotes team was doing static stretching which surprised me as that’s a no no in warmups today.Everything should be dynamic.
    At any rate the game
    Schultz had a good game but Klefbom was the best oiler D.I kept track of Bom when he was not directly involved and he is thinking the game well and uses his great skating to keep his gaps right.
    Marincin was not as good but it looks like he has some injury as he missed a couple of shifts and looked like his upper body was bothering him.
    Gagner looks like he is fighting an injury.A couple of times he left the ice in pain and I thought he might be done.He is tough as he kept coming out even though he stopped taking many face offs.
    Eberle had the best game of the oiler forwards and had the most jump
    The only bottom six forward that impressed me was Larsen.He skated his but off and even made a couple of hits.May I say Cogliano lite.
    I haven’t seen the oilers live for a few years and I have to say I had forgotten how much you pick up away from the play that is not on Tv.

    Gagner has an ankle injury he’s playing through. He missed a game recently and has sat out practices as a result.

  89. OilClog says:

    If Maricin, Klef, and Nurse are 3 of the best 7 or 8 how do you not have them playing. I understand that having three Greens on the back is not ideal. Yet these 3 aren’t typical D, Maricin and Klef are 2 of our best 3 now. MacT Will not be able to bring in 5 able men this summer to push these kids down the ladder, if he does it will mean these kids aren’t that good because we’re not landing that much quality, no way no how. Maybe 1 big fish, or a few angry dogs that’s it.

    What good will it do Nurse to be sent back to the OHL next year, it’s redundant. He’s played extremely well in the pre-season, superb in the OHL and is determined to make the squad next year.

    MacT will need to bring in 5 able better Defencemen in the offseason for these 3 not to be playing.

  90. bendelson says:

    Woodguy: CBJ has C’s that the Oilers could use (Anisimov/Dubinksy)

    Kekalinen was STL’s Head Scout when they drafted Perron.

    Discuss.

    There is a team in Montreal that, if the rumours are indeed true, covet French-Canadian players with both skill and spirit.

    Nobody wants to get rid of Perron – he’s been fantastic but if there are a couple of teams willing to significantly overpay, it would be foolish not to do your due diligence…

    Anisimov/Dubinksy?
    How close to Galchenyuk does Perron get you?
    It’s a question worth asking.

  91. Mr DeBakey says:

    OilClog: If Maricin, Klef, and Nurse are 3 of the best 7 or 8

    If Maricin, Klef, and Nurse are 3 of the best 7 or 8 we’ll be scouring the Entry Draft scouting reports by Valentine’s Day.

    OilClog: What good will it do Nurse to be sent back to the OHL next year,

    Kevin Lowe, one of the best Oilers’ D ever, played junior until he was 20

  92. DeadmanWaking says:

    Woodguy:
    Off the glass and out, unless it’s an emergency, need not apply.

    Ahhh, the penny finally drops. That old play wasn’t just “off the glass and out”. We fell into the vernacular trap of substituting slogan for reality. The actual play was “off the glass and out, then link arms at the blueline, form a flying wedge, and tackle anything that moves”.

    New rule, for a new era: Real defensemen don’t wear Huggies with glass suspenders. (Adult product line: Hugies.)

    It’s like that old joke about the Navy putting their recruits through Head 101.

    First lesson: water conservation, number one.
    Second lesson: water conservation, number two.
    Third lesson: paper conservation, number one.

    By the end of the fourth lesson, their aim is true, come hell or high water. After such a remorseless course of fine instruction, the hoarse roar of salty dogs keeling over in severe GI distress is tolerated in the tradition of Original Sicks. The deeper truth of this economy is that the Navy mops rather than shovels. For one thing, that’s why they’re so busy conserving water.

    This course of instruction doesn’t fly with the Marines. After they teach you how to properly wash your hands–and all the logistical support this implies–they’ve now got enough sunk in your higher education and deployment they no longer want you doubled over in the line of duty over anything less severe than smirking at a drill sergeant.

    New school: Threading the outlet.

    Old school: Flaunting the face wash.

    Typical primates. We fixate on the urgent upside, then neglect to consider the messy implications of splash radius vs girth.

    Somehow it appears Canada hasn’t gotten over the glorious age of steam power and National Unity. All Navy, no Marines. Why don’t we even have Marines? Because it takes far more to support a projection force than the motto “off the glass and out”. We can’t handle advanced logistics.

    Ankle burn from our pinched penny loafers.

    —-

    I’ve been reading White Planet by Mark Anthony Jarmon. His power of language is first rate, if you’re the kind of person who likes what I did there, before my post crossed the line.

    Here’s the opening page from his short story Bluebird Driver.

    He’s invisible, but we hear the yawl and pitch of his drunken voice. The young waitress explains to the young female bartender that she doesn’t want to serve the drunken sailor anymore.

    A young blond guy in a ballcap hears the voice, mutters, “That’s my old man. Navy. Esquimalt. Get me a beer! he’d yell when I was a kid. Get me a beer! Canadian navy they teach ‘em to drink. The crews are older in the Canadian navy, guys stay longer. Different than the American ships. Canadian navy teaches ‘em to drink and they don’t stop.”

    The young waitress dials a Bluebird taxi for our drunken sailor. The sailor walks up to the bar, leans against my right arm. We’re watching the Stanley Cup play-offs, Edmonton Oilers and the Dallas Stars tied. Great hockey, could go either way, though we know the Oilers are doomed.

    Here’s the closing bracket as it winds to a close. The drunk was carted off, and he’s now conversing with the blond guy.

    He asks about my pint, local and dark. He likes light beer. The young blond guy won’t drink Coors because Coors gave money to Greenpeace and Greenpeace puts loggers out of work and wrecks families. The young guy used to be a logger up island …

    I fail to tell him that I stopped drinking Coors eons ago because back then they were cutting cheques to the John Birch Society instead of Greenpeace. Times change.

    Dallas scores late in the third period. The American team wins the game and the Oilers are gone from the playoffs and the coach will get the axe, even though they almost beat the team that goes on to win the Stanley Cup.

    I bumped the TAB key and ended up posting prematurely. Coach didn’t actually get fired until a year or two later. Last night I looked it up. Times change.

  93. frjohnk says:

    Woodguy: CBJ has C’s that the Oilers could use (Anisimov/Dubinksy)Kekalinen was STL’s Head Scout when they drafted Perron.Discuss.

    I think if they are trading Perron, it is because they believe they won’t sign him after the two years is up and dont want to risk losing him for nothing. Dubinsky and Anisimov will become UFA in 2 and 1 years respectively. For that reason, those two players would not be ideal coming back. Trading Perron for one of those guys is just a lateral move contract wise, and wouldnt make sense especially if they wouldn’t sign an extension here. Don’t get me wrong, those two are exactly what the 2nd line needs but I believe the Oilers would be looking for someone younger and with more term. Is there a trade to be made? Yeah, I think so, but who is another question.

    In a salary cap world along with pending UFA’s, trading for what they need is not easy. I’m sure MacT could write a few books about this….

  94. Alpine says:

    I’ve noticed Mark Fayne’s a FA this summer. He’s 27 in May, plays borderline top four minutes with NJ, great Corsi numbers, used in diffcult situations etc, RH shot. I’m surprised he isn’t being talked about more, however he could just be a product of Deboer or possibly being paired with the very useful Andy Greene.

    I’d bet on him as you could probably get him cheap on 2 year deal, plus we’re crying for a competent RHD here. Grabbing Fayne and Ron Hainsey to take the load off of Marincin and Petry would be a cost effective way to help fix the defense.

  95. icecastles says:

    LMHF#1: Off the glass and out is dead except in the world of Dallas Eakins. His team whips the puck around the boards to the other team more than any sad sack squad I’ve seen.
    I hope the D is good enough next year that they simply ignore him, but #1 cheerleader Andrew Ference will still be here, making passes to the Boston Pizza ad.

    Let me get this straight: You are actually saying, without any hint of irony, that Dallas Eakins’ official actual strategy is to pass the puck to the other team.

    We have one of the weakest and least experienced defense corps in the game, but you are suggesting their inability to clear the zone effectively isn’t because of their inexperiennce/lack of skill. Rather, they are in fact so good that they can execute Eakins’ plan perfectly (despite their inability to do much else correctly), but Eakins is a secret agent for the other 29 teams.

    There’s hating Eakins, then there’s witch hunting, then there’s crazy, then there’s… well, then there’s whatever you call your theory. Come on, man.

  96. Thinker says:

    The assistant coaches aren’t the problem. Even if they are bad, which I think they are, it’s the people keeping them employed who are to blame. Lowe’s job has been to oversee hockey operations, and be a sober second thought who can offer expertise. If you saw your GM wanted to make a Tambellini-type trade, would you not intervene. The Oilers problems start at the top. I don’t really think MacT is one of the problems, but I would rather clean house than bet on him. The organization needs a new way of running. I hesitate to keep turning over players, when it isn’t being done right. Everybody should have been moved for picks in 2010 ala buffalo. Instead, we basically half rebuilt.

  97. icecastles says:

    OilClog: What good will it do Nurse to be sent back to the OHL next year, it’s redundant. He’s played extremely well in the pre-season, superb in the OHL and is determined to make the squad next year.

    Rush players; ruin players.

    Reasons to develop a player slowly:
    - Build confidence rather than shatter it.
    - Gain experience that they can learn from rather than from games so fast that they’re just overwhelmed.
    - Not play out of their depth. Dominant in junior or preseason is not the same as dominant against a real NHL team in a real NHL game. Not even close.
    - Avoid playing against men twice their size. how many more shoulder surgeries does this team need?
    - Learn to think the game at a higher level. Being a defenseman in the NHL is not easy. See the above points.
    - Avoid sense of entitlement and let players earn their way up.

    Reasons to bring a player up early:
    - We are impatient and want to win a little bit now instead of a lot later.
    - We like setting prospects up for failure.
    - Marketing.

  98. icecastles says:

    Thinker: The assistant coaches aren’t the problem. Even if they are bad, which I think they are, it’s the people keeping them employed who are to blame.

    So if someone hires an employee who doesn’t pan out, you keep the terrible employee and fire the guy who hired him?

    Thinker: If you saw your GM wanted to make a Tambellini-type trade, would you not intervene.

    People on the “Fire Lowe” train really need to sort out if they hate him because he interferes too much, or because he doesn’t interfere enough.

    Thinker: I don’t really think MacT is one of the problems, but I would rather clean house than bet on him.

    Is your nickname intentionally ironic?

  99. Thinker says:

    icecastles,
    No. But if you hire a bad employee, and keep them, then you are a bad employer. I expect mistakes to be made, but you have to be able to detect and correct them. This isn’t a one year thing

    Lowes job is to make sure hockey operations run smoothly (oversee day to day hockey operations). I don’t care how much he interferes. If he has good people working under him he doesn’t have to do anything. When things are run like horse shit, it is his job to fix it. Simple as that. Since Lowe failed to fix how the team was run, people have started to question his knowledge as well.

  100. icecastles says:

    Thinker: Lowes job is to make sure hockey operations run smoothly (oversee day to day hockey operations). I don’t care how much he interferes. If he has good people working under him he doesn’t have to do anything. When things are run like horse shit, it is his job to fix it. Simple as that. Since Lowe failed to fix how the team was run, people have started to question his knowledge as well.

    Very good points… I agree with you 100%. Don’t think your conclusions (fire MacT in particular) follow from this at all though.

    And the assistant coaches are there to help the coach. Therefore it should be the coach, or at most the GM, who influences if those guys stay or go. If they say they want them around (which they did, though I suspect and hope that changes this summer), then POHO should not overrule them and fire them anyway.

    That said, the Old Boys Club factor definitely does mess with all this as I can’t imagine it being easy for Mactavish or Lowe to tell Bucky and Smith they’re out of there.

  101. denny33 says:

    Woodguy,

    The big question is: “1LHD/1RHD or 3RD?”
    MacT’s decision here might be the difference between meaningful games in March or not.
    ***************************************************************************************************
    25 other GM’s are after the same 1LD or 1RD…..

    Some people in here are still complaining about the cost of David Perron.

    The cost to a very thinly talented Oiler club will start with the words Shock and Awe…

    I am pretty luke warm on Mac T and even I could not ask him to go fetch a 1st pairing D-man.

    Are any even for sale?

  102. denny33 says:

    I keep seeing PK Subban’s name in here ( in Lowetide)…..why not trade for Malkin after that?

  103. Bank Shot says:

    Woodguy: The notion is necessarily that these players don’t have jobs, its that their contribution, and therefore salary are undervalued.

    Another part of being undervalued is being freely available in trade.

    Diaz gets traded for Weise (who’s type is always available) and Murray gets his ice time.
    Gilbert and Hainsey have to sign PTO to get jobs and each gets a 1 year contract.
    Reghr gets more TOI than Martinez

    The list of this of inefficiency manifesting itself is quite large if you take time to look at how many (not all) NHL teams deploy their D and who they hire for their D.

    What makes you think the Diaz type isn’t always available? He’s been traded twice this season. What makes Diaz underrated? In 12/13 he had the worst zone starts and worst corsi on the HABS.

    That’s similar to Regehr this season in LA who is apparently not the ES player that Martinez is.

    Drewskie also had a better corsi in LA last season than Regehr and this season he couldn’t crack the Montreal roster.

    How are you determining which players are over and under utilized? Diaz is a good example of how different situations left him with a widely varying CORSI in different seasons.

    I can see why Tom Gilbert is in the situation he is in. He played himself off a playoff team last season and probably didn’t want to settle for a low dollar contract this season. Hence the one year show me contract.

  104. icecastles says:

    denny33: Some people in here are still complaining about the cost of David Perron.

    I’ve never heard anyone on LT express this.

    Bank Shot: What makes you think the Diaz type isn’t always available?

    If Cameron Diaz is available, I’ve got a phone call to make.

  105. LMHF#1 says:

    icecastles: Let me get this straight: You are actually saying, without any hint of irony, that Dallas Eakins’ official actual strategy is to pass the puck to the other team.

    We have one of the weakest and least experienced defense corps in the game, but you are suggesting their inability to clear the zone effectively isn’t because of their inexperiennce/lack of skill. Rather, they are in fact so good that they can execute Eakins’ plan perfectly (despite their inability to do much else correctly), but Eakins is a secret agent for the other 29 teams.

    There’s hating Eakins, then there’s witch hunting, then there’s crazy, then there’s… well, then there’s whatever you call your theory. Come on, man.

    The D stink, but Eakins is advocating ringing the boards, just as he’s advocating “chipping it past the D” at the other end.

    Watch the games. Listen to the coach and the players. It is clear that this is not desperation.

    I’m not saying Eakins understands that this simply means you give the other team the puck. He clearly doesn’t. This is a man and who thinks Mark Fraser is capable. He doesn’t understand the requirements of a modern NHL defenseman.

  106. Ryan says:

    frjohnk:
    Lowtide,
    On your show yesterday, you mentioned, or somebody mentioned instead of trading Eberle, the oilers should look at trading Perron for a D man or Centerman.The reasoning behind this was for two reasons, 1.Perron is two years from UFA.2.Trading Eberle could have an affect on Hall and some of the fan base.When that line of RNH, Hall and Eberle are at the top of their game, they are one of the best lines in the game.Their chemistry can be magic.Games against the Ducks and Sharks this week are proof.

    Perron has a 3.8M dollar cap hit for the next two years.That is extreme value for a player of his stature.I really like Perron and I believe we could use more players like him on this team.But if there is a sense that he won’t sign here, thenhe could be nice trade bait in a package this summer and get a nice piece back like a top 4 d man or 2nd line center.

    You could make the argument that the Oilers have to trade Perron this summer.

    The Oilers have holes everywhere and Perron is an excellent winger with an exceptional contract. His value is never going to be higher than it is now. If they ride out one more of his contract, maybe he gets you a late first and a tuebert at the next deadline.

    Even if Perron were willing to sign here instead of testing free agency, he’s going to be very expensive.

    I love Perron, but if the Oilers can parlay him into the right centre or dman, you have to pull the trigger.

  107. icecastles says:

    Ryan: The Oilers have holes everywhere and Perron is an excellent winger with an exceptional contract. His value is never going to be higher than it is now. If they ride out one more of his contract, maybe he gets you a late first and a tuebert at the next deadline.

    Oh, so true. I hope the brass are able to see it that way, but I suspect they see his banner year and expect it will always be thus.

    When was the last time the Oilers actually moved someone when they were at their maximum value? I honestly can’t think of an instance since the lockout.

    Buying high and selling low has to be one of the biggest reasons this hole has lasted so long. Someone has a career season and rather than maximizing that value to fill a need, they assume every following year will be as good and sign the player to a ridiculous contract that means they’ll never get value in a future trade.

    I love Perron. Until today I’ve been thrilled he’s an Oiler. Now the thought of trading him is just so tantalizing. You bastards keep sucking the naive joy out of this game and replacing it with good ideas.

  108. denny33 says:

    icecastles,

    I’ve never heard anyone on LT express this.
    **************************************************************
    Your friend Godot – just 48 hours ago…pointing out that the 2nd rounder is gong to be a very high pick.

  109. icecastles says:

    denny33,

    Ol’ Shopping Cart doesn’t count.

    I was going to say “I’ve never heard any reasonable person on LT express this,” but then I honestly thought it was one of the few crazy things that had never been uttered on here. I should have known….

  110. Lowetide says:

    icecastles:
    denny33,

    Ol’ Shopping Cart doesn’t count.

    I was going to say “I’ve never heard any reasonable person on LT express this,” but then I honestly thought it was one of the few crazy things that had never been uttered on here. I should have known….

    ‘THIS^^^^^^^^

  111. Marc says:

    Lowetide: I think (generally speaking) there are very few NHL defensemen who have played 40 games (at age 21) like we’ve seen from Marincin. The two things history tells us about defensemen is that:

    1. flying more sorties makes you better
    2. staying healthy is really difficult

    I think any study that looks at development would have to have a major eye on the injuries.

    I don’t doubt that flying more sorties makes you better. What I’m wondering is whether there’s any evidence that flying those sorties in a lower level league is better for a player’s development than flying them in the NHL as soon as they are physically able to do so.

    Lots of people seem to be suggesting that Nurse should go back to junior, Klefbom should start in the AHL etc because it will ultimately be better for their long development that way. I’m wondering why it is we think that.

    The Oilers are the only team I follow closely, but the evidence from the D they’ve developed over the last decade or doesn’t suggest any clear relationship between time in the minors and development at the AHL level.

    Smid and Grebeshkov both spent the year after they got drafted in their home country, then came to the AHL. Grebeshkov played twice as many games in the AHL as Smid, plus another full season in Russia before he made the NHL for good. All that extra time in the minors didn’t seem to make it appreciably easier for him to adapt to the NHL game than Smid though. It took him the best part of two years before he was somewhat effective in the NHL.

    Petry and Schultz both played for 4 full years (1 in junior, 3 in college) before they even got to the AHL. They each played about 50 games there – Petry was good, and Schultz utterly dominant, before making the leap to the NHL for a partial season. By the end of his first full season Petry was already looking like an effective NHL D – score one for lots of time developing in the minors. Schultz on the other hand is struggling with the defensive side of the NHL game, notwithstanding his 4.5 years in the minors and his dominant play at those levels. One wonders if he might of been better served learning the game at NHL speed after 2 or 3 years instead of dominating leagues he was too good for.

    Then there’s Marincin. Two years in junior and one and a bit in the AHL before his promotion. In a fifty game smaple he’s either been the Oiler’s best, or second best, D. He’s adjusted more quickly to the NHL game than either Petry or Schultz did, despite being promoted more than a full season earlier than they did.

    Klefbom is perhaps the most interesting case. In a very small sample size he’s looked good, getting better every game it seems. Woodguy has seen him good. Sliderule said he was the Oilers best D last night. He’s played 89 games total in the minors – not much more than one season’s worth – over three years, and he looks more comfortable with the NHL game at this stage than Smid did after two seasons in the NHL.

    It’s difficult to conclude from the Oilers recent’ experience that keeping young D in the minors as long as possible is the best way to develop them.

    That’s not to say it isn’t. I just think that if no one’s done any real analysis to try and verify this assumption, and the anecdotal evidence is decidedly mixed, then we should treat the assumption with some caution.

  112. Bank Shot says:

    rickithebear:
    Name me one UFA Dman that faces 1st comp and has a better EVGA than Marincin.

    Marincin isn’t really playing 1st comp though. At least not hard matched against the top lines. I don’t think there is much difference in quality of comp for Edmonton’s top 6 compared to some teams.

    For example if you look at the shift charts when Anaheim and San Jose last came to Edmonton, Marincin saw maybe 6-8 shifts per game out of 24-26 against Getzlaf/Perry and the two Joes.

    Definitely not the same as how Woodguy was pointing out how other teams match their top pair to Hall.

  113. Woodguy says:

    Alpine:
    I’ve noticed Mark Fayne’s a FA this summer.He’s 27 in May, plays borderline top four minutes with NJ, great Corsi numbers, used in diffcult situations etc, RH shot. I’m surprised he isn’t being talked about more, however he could just be a product of Deboer or possibly being paired with the very useful Andy Greene.

    I’d bet on him as you could probably get him cheap on 2 year deal, plus we’re crying for a competent RHD here. Grabbing Fayne and Ron Hainsey to take the load off of Marincin and Petry would be a cost effective way to help fix the defense.

    Fayne would be a target for sure.

  114. Woodguy says:

    denny33:
    I keep seeing PK Subban’s name in here ( in Lowetide)…..why not trade for Malkin after that?

    Subban is getting less and less TOI under his coach and is RFA this summer.

    There may be every chance that he refuses to sign in MTL and asks for a trade.

    One cool thing about the KHL is that it gives players a credible alternative money wise and forces team to capitulate and trade.

  115. oliveoilers says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: Oh, good god man watch the Ealing comedies.

    Grew up watching them. Loved them all, the emergence of Peter Sellers (Pompey boy, like me), Peter Ustinov, just all round great acting and better writing. Passport to Pimlico was great, Titchfield Thunderbolt, Great Train Robbery. Cream of the crop though had to be The Ladykillers. Often imitated, never bettered. Besides, as LT pointed out, I had the wrong bridge!

  116. Woodguy says:

    Bank Shot,

    What makes you think the Diaz type isn’t always available? He’s been traded twice this season.

    That helps make my case.

    What makes Diaz underrated? In 12/13 he had the worst zone starts and worst corsi on the HABS.

    Have you looked at his WOWY’s from that year?

    http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1512&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

    Two most common D partners:
    45.7% with Gorges – Diaz when apart from Gorges 50.2%
    41.4% with Murray – Diaz when apart from Murray 50.3%

    Diaz wasn’t the issue.

    Also read these: (Rom linked to it earlier lots of good info)

    http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2014/2/3/5374414/the-value-of-raphael-diaz-why-trading-him-was-a-mistake
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/habs-bought-into-a-myth-when-they-dealt-diaz/

    That’s similar to Regehr this season in LA who is apparently not the ES player that Martinez is.

    Almost every King is worse with Regehr than others, almost every Hab was better with Diaz. That’s the difference.

    Drewskie also had a better corsi in LA last season than Regehr and this season he couldn’t crack the Montreal roster.

    I don’t know Drewiskie well enough to comment, but a coach that is playing Murray ahead of Subban isn’t the authority I’d appeal to.

    How are you determining which players are over and under utilized? Diaz is a good example of how different situations left him with a widely varying CORSI in different seasons.

    Spitballing mostly with the teams I follow fairly close due to fantasy hockey. LAK and MTL have already been mentioned. OTT with Cowan this year (although his time was cut back) and my fav there Weircioch fall off a cliff too. Orpik ahead of Matta in PIT, (look at Orpik’s WOWY, just horrendous) I had also mentioned that SJS purged their version of this player.

    I can see why Tom Gilbert is in the situation he is in. He played himself off a playoff team last season and probably didn’t want to settle for a low dollar contract this season. Hence the one year show me contract.

    I don’t think he played himself off MIN as much as they counted on buying out Heatley to make room for Suter and Parise, but with Heatley on LTIR, they couldn’t and Gilbert was the logical choice to sacrifice to make room. He was a reasonable 4/5 option and they kinda miss him this year with Brodin having a tougher year than last year.

  117. Gerta Rauss says:

    Woodguy: Subban is getting less and less TOI under his coach and is RFA this summer.

    There may be every chance that he refuses to sign in MTL and asks for a trade.

    One cool thing about the KHL is that it gives players a credible alternative money wise and forces team to capitulate and trade.

    Also, an unpleasant negotiation just 15 short months ago iirc

    Until Subban is signed people will speculate and make trade proposals, that’s just the way it is.

  118. Woodguy says:

    Bank Shot,

    For example if you look at the shift charts when Anaheim and San Jose last came to Edmonton, Marincin saw maybe 6-8 shifts per game out of 24-26 against Getzlaf/Perry and the two Joes.
    Definitely not the same as how Woodguy was pointing out how other teams match their top pair to Hall.

    Perhaps this is evidence that the Oilers really don’t have a top pair.

    :)

  119. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    oliveoilers: Grew up watching them.Loved them all, the emergence of Peter Sellers (Pompey boy, like me), Peter Ustinov,just all round great acting and better writing.Passport to Pimlico was great, Titchfield Thunderbolt, Great Train Robbery.Cream of the crop though had to be The Ladykillers.Often imitated, never bettered.Besides, as LT pointed out, I had the wrong bridge!

    Awesome…! I love the Ealing Comedies.

    That’s where I tend to start with Guinness. Most North Americans shun foreign films, even when the foreign land is just the UK.

    Green for Danger is just great

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2giC3rvfjY

    (not an Ealing Comedy).

    (doesn’t matter — I knew which bridge you were talking about)

  120. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Woodguy: Fayne would be a target for sure.

    Yep. Fayne is my top target if we can’t actually get Markov (we can’t).

  121. speeds says:

    The lack of games remaining really crept up on me – I didn’t realize the Oilers had already clinched, at worst, the 4th OV draft pick.

  122. cabbiesmacker says:

    icecastles: Oh, so true. I hope the brass are able to see it that way, but I suspect they see his banner year and expect it will always be thus.

    When was the last time the Oilers actually moved someone when they were at their maximum value? I honestly can’t think of an instance since the lockout.

    Buying high and selling low has to be one of the biggest reasons this hole has lasted so long.

    I love Perron. Until today I’ve been thrilled he’s an Oiler. Now the thought of trading him is just so tantalizing. You bastards keep sucking the naive joy out of this game and replacing it with good ideas.

    Because this is how the NHL perennial powerhouse teams i.e. SJ, CHI, LA, and DET stay at the top. They trade away their best players, in their prime years, for wishes and prayers.

    I can’t believe any Oiler fan would be stupid enough to advocate a move like this. Seriously. I can definitely see it being a reality from the worst NHL management team in the league the past 10 years but the fans shouldn’t be given a pass for promoting the one-way to Loserland.

    Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised though. It’s the end of another pathetic 180 days and Oiler fans have already begun to forget the debacles of another wasted season while believing in their heart of hearts that they actually have enough top 6 talent to be a contender “next year.” This is laughable. Again.

    Trade the crapshoot that is Yakupov and the just plain crap that is Gagner, along with 4 of the bottom 6 Walking Dead, grab a Dman or two and try to get near a playoff spot next season, but you don’t give up one of the actual real hockey players on the team. Hanging on to the “future potential” of two guys like the aforementioned just because there’s a 40% chance they might actually turn out to be solid contributors is fools play.

    Now if you’d said it would be awesome to have a GM that didn’t throw 3 x $5M contracts at middlin players making them untradeable without eating large chunks of his salary you’d be on to something.

    Damn I hope the Hawks trade Toews. His value has never been higher and he’ll be 26 and on the decline soon. I’m sure they could get the 2C they so desperately need and maybe a nice D prospect or two for him. It makes perfect sense right? It didn’t hurt Philly one little bit getting rid of Carter and Richards afterall.

    Man. Fools rush in.

  123. Woodguy says:

    Marc: I don’t doubt that flying more sorties makes you better.What I’m wondering is whether there’s any evidence that flying those sorties in a lower level league is better for a player’s development than flying them in the NHL as soon as they are physically able to do so.

    Lots of people seem to be suggesting that Nurse should go back to junior, Klefbom should start in the AHL etc because it will ultimately be better for their long development thatway.I’m wondering why it is we think that.

    The Oilers are the only team I follow closely, but the evidence from the D they’ve developed over the last decade or doesn’t suggest any clear relationship between time in the minors and development at the AHL level.

    Smid and Grebeshkov both spent the year after they got drafted in their home country, then came to the AHL.Grebeshkov played twice as many games in the AHL as Smid, plus another full season in Russia before he made the NHL for good.All that extra time in the minors didn’t seem to make it appreciably easier for him to adapt to the NHL game than Smid though. It took him the best part of two years before he was somewhat effective in the NHL.

    Petry and Schultz both played for 4 full years (1 in junior, 3 in college) before they even got to the AHL.They each played about 50 games there – Petry was good, and Schultz utterly dominant, before making the leap to the NHL for a partial season.By the end of his first full season Petry was already looking like an effective NHL D – score one for lots of time developing in the minors.Schultz on the other hand is struggling with the defensive side of the NHL game, notwithstanding his 4.5 years in the minors and his dominant play at those levels.One wonders if he might of been better served learning the game at NHL speed after 2 or 3 years instead of dominating leagues he was too good for.

    Then there’s Marincin.Two years in junior and one and a bit in the AHL before his promotion.In a fifty game smaple he’s either been the Oiler’s best, or second best, D.He’s adjusted more quickly to the NHL game than either Petry or Schultz did, despite being promoted more than a full season earlier than they did.

    Klefbom is perhaps the most interesting case.In a very small sample size he’s looked good, getting better every game it seems.Woodguy has seen him good.Sliderule said he was the Oilers best D last night. He’s played 89 games total in the minors – not much more than one season’s worth – over three years, and he looks more comfortable with the NHL game at this stage than Smid did after two seasons in the NHL.

    It’s difficult to conclude from the Oilers recent’ experience that keeping young D in the minors as long as possible is the best way to develop them.

    That’s not to say it isn’t. I just think that if no one’s done any real analysis to try and verify this assumption, and the anecdotal evidence is decidedly mixed, then we should treat the assumption with some caution.

    Lots to chew on there.

    I think age has a lot to do with it.

    We need to ignore someone like Doughty who comes in and kills it at 18/19 because they are the outlier, even among top draft picks.

    The college players you mention are 22+ when they got to the NHL and to me that’s a big deal.

    More man strength, more experience playing games in a top league are better than not.

    The jump from junior to the NHL is huge, massive, humongous. The results of many young men floundering and the verbal you hear from the players who have gone through it are testament to the size of the jump.

    You risk hurting the confidence of young Dmen (19-20) who jump from junior to the AHL and hurting them physically.

    Marincin just turned 22 and is a NHL rookie from the CHL.

    Klef turns 21 in July and has played against men for 3 years.

    Nurse just turned 19 in February and would be 19 for most of next year.

    I don’t have any numbers to back me up, but I’d guess that the number of players who were “hurt” by playing in the NHL too early significantly dwarfs the number who were “hurt” by not being graduated to the NHL a year or two too late.

    Terrible rambling post, sorry.

  124. cabbiesmacker says:

    speeds:
    The lack of games remaining really crept up on me – I didn’t realize the Oilers had already clinched, at worst, the 4th OV draft pick.

    You have to Speed up Speedsman. It took looking at the remaining games for this to creep up on you? Some of us got “crept” when we looked at the schedule 4 days before the season opened.

    want an early prediction for 14/15 while we’re talkin?

  125. Woodguy says:

    cabbiesmacker: Because this is how the NHL powerhouse teams i.e. SJ, CHI, LA, and DET stay at the top. They trade away their best players, in their prime years, for wishes and prayers.

    I can’t believe any Oiler fan would be stupid enough to advocate a move like this. Seriously. I can definitely see it being a reality from the worst NHL management team in the league the past 10 years but the fans shouldn’t be given a pass for promoting the one-way to Loserland.

    Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised though. It’s the end of another pathetic 180 days and Oiler fans have already begun to forget the debacles of another wasted season and believing in their heart of hearts that they actually have enough top 6 talent to be a contender “next year.” This is laughable. Again.

    Trade the crapshoot that is Yakupov and the just plain crap that is Gagner, along with 4 of the bottom 6 Walking Dead, grab a Dman or two and try to get near a playoff spot next season, but you don’t give up one of the actual real hockey players on the team. Hanging on to the “future potential” of two guys like the aforementioned just because there’s a 40% chance they might actually turn out to be solid contributors is fools play.

    Now if you’d said it would be awesome to have a GM that didn’t throw 3 x $5M contracts at middlin players making them untradeable without eating large chunks of his salary you’d be on to something.

    Damn I hope the Hawks trade Toews. His value has never been higher and he’ll be 26 and on the decline soon. I’m sure they could get the 2C they so desperately need and maybe a nice D prospect or two for him. It makes perfect sense right? It didn’t hurt Philly one little bit getting rid of Carter and Richards afterall.

    Man. Fools rush in.

    You make a very good point about getting good players and keeping good players.

    That is always the model you want to follow.

    The one difference between the teams you mentioned (SJS,CHI,DET) and EDM is that EDM has massive holes at C and D, the teams you mentioned don’t.

    When SJS did have a massive hole at C they did this:

    San Jose sent forwards Marco Sturm and Wayne Primeau and defenseman Brad Stuart to the Bruins, sacrificing three members of their young core for Thornton, a probable 2006 Canadian Olympian and three-time All-Star considered one of the NHL’s top power forwards.

    CHI was lucky enough to draft most of their top players outside of Hossa and Sharp.

    DET has drafted most of their players as well, although they did sign 2C Weiss this off season to terrible results and traded for a short term fix in Legwand.

    The Oilers have not drafted well enough to date and there are two holes that remain large. 1/2C and 1D.

    You can make a case that in a year or two the Oilers have lots of candidates for the 1LD and 1RD spot and they shouldn’t trade for that today, but sign a FA short term.

    You can’t make that case for 1/2C.

    There is nothing in pipeline.

    If they think they can sign what they want in FA, then don’t trade.

    If they can’t then they need to trade from abundance (wing) to address need (C)

    Good team get good players and keep good players, but they also address freight train sized holes in their roster and in terms of the Oiler organization the C position is 120 cars long.

  126. frjohnk says:

    cabbiesmacker: Because this is how the NHL perennial powerhouse teams i.e. SJ, CHI, LA, and DET stay at the top. They trade away their best players, in their prime years, for wishes and prayers.

    I can’t believe any Oiler fan would be stupid enough to advocate a move like this. Seriously. I can definitely see it being a reality from the worst NHL management team in the league the past 10 years but the fans shouldn’t be given a pass for promoting the one-way to Loserland.

    Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised though. It’s the end of another pathetic 180 days and Oiler fans have already begun to forget the debacles of another wasted season while believing in their heart of hearts that they actually have enough top 6 talent to be a contender “next year.” This is laughable. Again.

    Trade the crapshoot that is Yakupov and the just plain crap that is Gagner, along with 4 of the bottom 6 Walking Dead, grab a Dman or two and try to get near a playoff spot next season, but you don’t give up one of the actual real hockey players on the team. Hanging on to the “future potential” of two guys like the aforementioned just because there’s a 40% chance they might actually turn out to be solid contributors is fools play.

    Now if you’d said it would be awesome to have a GM that didn’t throw 3 x $5M contracts at middlin players making them untradeable without eating large chunks of his salary you’d be on to something.

    Damn I hope the Hawks trade Toews. His value has never been higher and he’ll be 26 and on the decline soon. I’m sure they could get the 2C they so desperately need and maybe a nice D prospect or two for him. It makes perfect sense right? It didn’t hurt Philly one little bit getting rid of Carter and Richards afterall.

    Man. Fools rush in.

    I advocate trading him IF it looks like he wants to head towards free agency. He is UFA in two years. I really like him and would love to see the oilers sign him, but if he says he wants to test free agency, the oilers need to be looking to see if there is deal to be made this summer.

    If his return is a very good 2nd line C, pull the trigger

  127. Pouzar says:

    Woodguy: You make a very good point about getting good players and keeping good players.

    That is always the model you want to follow.

    The one difference between the teams you mentioned (SJS,CHI,DET) and EDM is that EDM has massive holes at C and D, the teams you mentioned don’t.

    When SJS did have a massive hole at C they did this:

    San Jose sent forwards Marco Sturm and Wayne Primeau and defenseman Brad Stuart to the Bruins, sacrificing three members of their young core for Thornton, a probable 2006 Canadian Olympian and three-time All-Star considered one of the NHL’s top power forwards.

    CHI was lucky enough to draft most of their top players outside of Hossa and Sharp.

    DET has drafted most of their players as well, although they did sign 2C Weiss this off season to terrible results and traded for a short term fix in Legwand.

    The Oilers have not drafted well enough to date and there are two holes that remain large. 1/2C and 1D.

    You can make a case that in a year or two the Oilers have lots of candidates for the 1LD and 1RD spot and they shouldn’t trade for that today, but sign a FA short term.

    You can’t make that case for 1/2C.

    There is nothing in pipeline.

    If they think they can sign what they want in FA, then don’t trade.

    If they can’t then they need to trade from abundance (wing) to address need (C)

    Good team get good players and keep good players, but they also address freight train sized holes in their roster and in terms of the Oiler organization the C position is 120 cars long.

    That was a terrible terrible trade for the Bruins. My theory today is that if they retained Big Joe there was no way they would have been players for Chara and we all know how that worked out. Doesn’t excuse that brutal return however.

  128. Pouzar says:

    Connor Jones centering legit wingers in Roman Horak & Matt Ford. Man, this lineup is sorta fun. #OKCBarons

  129. David says:

    Brett Pollock with 2 more assists today. 6, 4-4-8.

  130. stevezie says:

    bendelson: There is a team in Montreal that, if the rumours are indeed true, covet French-Canadian players with both skill and spirit.

    I like Peron and his desperately needed attitude and his contract enough that I think trading him for anything less than a slam dunk (which I do not think Dubinsky or Anisimov qualify as, but I guess I could be convinced) would be a mistake.

    However, if his accent means you can get a buck twenty-five on the dollar for him from Montreal, well you have to be willing to kick tires on Subban for him and the first, right? Throw Klefbom in if you think that’s not even close, or Musil if you think it’s about right.

    Benlson’s Galenchyuk suggestion intrigues me, but I actually think your odds are better on P.K.

  131. stevezie says:

    I have been critical of most post-Hemsky trade proposals involving a talented winger moving, as that would just create another hole, but I will admit that the list of UFA wingers this summer beats UFA defenders.

    Sometimes it makes sense to rob Peter to pay Paul when Peter is in a better position to recoup the loss.

    http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents for anyone who is curious.

  132. Lowetide says:

    Eric Rodgers ‏@ericrsports 7s

    Andrew Miller and Brad Hunt get the assists on Stretch’s goal. #OKCBarons
    Expand

  133. godot10 says:

    denny33:
    icecastles,

    I’ve never heard anyone on LT express this.
    **************************************************************
    Your friend Godot – just 48 hours ago…pointing out that the 2nd rounder is gong to be a very high pick.

    I said the deal was good in concept but will likely look not so good in hidesight over the longer term because of the mistake of hiring Eakins set the team back.

    Perron will not be value for money on his next contract (he will get full value as a UFA), when the Oilers begin to be competitive. He is value for money now, but Eakins set the team back two years. So in two years, Paajarvi and the high 2nd round pick would like be the better value.

    The Perron trade was a NOW trade. But the Eakins hire was a BACKWARDS move. The second neutralizes the benefits of the first.

  134. Ryan says:

    cabbiesmacker: Because this is how the NHL perennial powerhouse teams i.e. SJ, CHI, LA, and DET stay at the top. They trade away their best players, in their prime years, for wishes and prayers.

    I can’t believe any Oiler fan would be stupid enough to advocate a move like this. Seriously. I can definitely see it being a reality from the worst NHL management team in the league the past 10 years but the fans shouldn’t be given a pass for promoting the one-way to Loserland.

    Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised though. It’s the end of another pathetic 180 days and Oiler fans have already begun to forget the debacles of another wasted season while believing in their heart of hearts that they actually have enough top 6 talent to be a contender “next year.” This is laughable. Again.

    Trade the crapshoot that is Yakupov and the just plain crap that is Gagner, along with 4 of the bottom 6 Walking Dead, grab a Dman or two and try to get near a playoff spot next season, but you don’t give up one of the actual real hockey players on the team. Hanging on to the “future potential” of two guys like the aforementioned just because there’s a 40% chance they might actually turn out to be solid contributors is fools play.

    Now if you’d said it would be awesome to have a GM that didn’t throw 3 x $5M contracts at middlin players making them untradeable without eating large chunks of his salary you’d be on to something.

    Damn I hope the Hawks trade Toews. His value has never been higher and he’ll be 26 and on the decline soon. I’m sure they could get the 2C they so desperately need and maybe a nice D prospect or two for him. It makes perfect sense right? It didn’t hurt Philly one little bit getting rid of Carter and Richards afterall.

    Man. Fools rush in.

    Okay. We’re not on the same page here. Have fun watching Perron burn the last two years of his contract playing on shitty roster with no top 4 dmen or a 2c.

    All things being equal, I agree with you on the surface that I like Perron a hell of of a lot better than Gagner or Yakupov. But the pool of available UFA 2c and top 4 dmen is razor thin.

    Sure we can dream of signing Markov and Stastny to play with Perron while we parlay Gagner into free cap space…

    If that’s even remotely possible, keep Perron, otherwise you have to trade an asset with value to get things this team needs.

  135. godot10 says:

    Perron should not be traded until Yakupov has signed a new contract. And well, it would be wise to see another Yakupov season before deciding whether to pay or trade Perron.

    Of course, if a legit 2nd line centre is offered locked up for longer…

  136. Woodguy says:

    Abe Simpsont10: I said the deal was good in concept but will likely look not so good in hidesight over the longer term because of the mistake of hiring Eakins set the team back.

    Perron will not be value for money on his next contract (he will get full value as a UFA), when the Oilers begin to be competitive.He is value for money now, but Eakins set the team back two years.So in two years, Paajarvi and the high 2nd round pick would like be the better value.

    The Perron trade was a NOW trade.But the Eakins hire was a BACKWARDS move.The second neutralizes the benefits of the first.

    What are your feeling about the Oilers’ coaching?

    You’re always so vague.

  137. pboy says:

    Derek Morris is an UFA this off season according to cap geek. He’d be solid on a 2 year deal IMO.

  138. jayzz says:

    Why does everyone just assume that the kids won’t be able to compete at the NHL level??? What if all three outperform and out play the likes of petry ference and Shultz ?? Let training camp and exhibition games determine who stays and who gets sent down, to hell with contracts and other arguments to that end. Keep the ones who have success and throw the rest to the waiver wire. I have a feeling that the whole reason nurse was so emotional when he was cut was because he and everyone watching could see that he was ahead of at least 3 of the defenders staying.

  139. Pouzar says:

    Neal ‏@tweetneal 1m
    Jujhar Khaira gets the gold star for being a defensive beast at the center position. Swoon. #OKCBarons

  140. striker says:

    Barons win. Khaira looking very good, Nelson throwing him out there to take the last few dzone faceoffs with the game on the line. Looks like a man already, bigger than I thought he was. His skating also looks strong (mind you this is AHL speed, not NHL speed; see Anton Lander)

  141. regwald says:

    Pouzar:
    Neal ‏@tweetneal1m
    Jujhar Khaira gets the gold star for being a defensive beast at the center position. Swoon. #OKCBarons

    And 4 shots on net to boot. Fedun with 6 shots.

  142. RexLibris says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    Apparently Evander Kane is scratched tonight. So… there’s that.

    gather your best trade proposals.

    I was thinking about whether Brian Burke might offer a couple of 1st round picks and a 2nd rounder for him.

    You know, just for old time’s sake.

  143. RexLibris says:

    David:
    Brett Pollock with 2 more assists today. 6, 4-4-8.

    And Kulda with 2 goals and an assist. ;)

    Race you to which one gets drafted first? (It’ll be Pollock due to the Latvian factor)

  144. stevezie says:

    jayzz,

    Saying that people of their age and experience will have trouble adjusting to the NHL is a historically valid generalization, not an assumption.

  145. Pouzar says:

    striker:
    Barons win.Khaira looking very good, Nelson throwing him out there to take the last few dzone faceoffs with the game on the line.Looks like a man already, bigger than I thought he was.His skating also looks strong (mind you this is AHL speed, not NHL speed; see Anton Lander)

    Were you able to watch the game? Any other scouting reports? thx

  146. Pouzar says:

    Neal ‏@tweetneal 46m
    Connor Jones is an intelligent fella. Knows exactly what he wants to do with the puck. Strategic player. #OKCBarons

  147. RexLibris says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: Yep. Fayne is my top target if we can’t actually get Markov (we can’t).

    Can I also add my vote for Fayne? He looks like an under-the-radar signing who could help this team not lose (keeping my expectations moderate there).

  148. Bank Shot says:

    Woodguy:
    Bank Shot,

    What makes you think the Diaz type isn’t always available? He’s been traded twice this season.

    That helps make my case.

    What makes Diaz underrated? In 12/13 he had the worst zone starts and worst corsi on the HABS.

    Have you looked at his WOWY’s from that year?

    http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1512&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

    Two most common D partners:
    45.7% with Gorges – Diaz when apart from Gorges 50.2%
    41.4% with Murray – Diaz when apart from Murray 50.3%

    Diaz wasn’t the issue.

    Also read these: (Rom linked to it earlier lots of good info)

    http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2014/2/3/5374414/the-value-of-raphael-diaz-why-trading-him-was-a-mistake
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/habs-bought-into-a-myth-when-they-dealt-diaz/

    That’s similar to Regehr this season in LA who is apparently not the ES player that Martinez is.

    Almost every King is worse with Regehr than others, almost every Hab was better with Diaz.That’s the difference.

    I was talking about 12/13 not 13/14. Diaz played the Regehr minutes in 12/13 and got the Regehr results.

    In 12/13 Murray didn’t play on the Habs and Diaz played the worst zone starts on the Habs. He was similar to Regehr in that almost every Hab did better without him.

    When different usage in terms of zone starts has that big of an effect on WOWY and corsi, you have to question how much is player ability and how much is coaching effects.

  149. rickithebear says:

    Marincin was facing the 40th toughest comp value in the game.
    there are very few true hard matching D..
    he plays with 4th line tea mates.
    look at a lot of the others top 40 .
    they are playing with 1st and fringe seconds. P V P
    facing 1st with 4th support
    versus facing 1st with 1st.

    Fuck man!

    Not really facing true firsts!

    I am sure marincin would prefer to face 1sts with
    Hall-RNH-perron

  150. Alpine says:

    pboy,

    Something about Morris just screams Andrew Ference to me. And not in a good way. Now if we didn’t have Ference already, then yeah I could get behind signing him to play as a 4/5.

  151. cabbiesmacker says:

    Woodguy,

    WG

    I agree with most of what you say, as usual, but you don’t trade Perron. IMO he’s as valuable or More valuable than some of the younger kids that get mentioned when the “core” is referred to. WTF isn’t Perron Core? The only forward above him is Hall in terms of what they bring every night and Perron brings the irritant factor on top. Good teams have these sorts of players. Actually a lot of very good teams WISH they had players like this.

    In your SJ example the Sharks didn’t lose valuable pieces for Thornton. They stole him just like MacT did with Perron.

    Lose Yakupov and Gagner. They’re redundant and top 6 suited only. Use them, this years draft pick and D prospects to get your C or grab a plug in piece you can rely on through free agency. Having only one top two C hasn’t hurt the Hawks too badly because the surrounding cast, the Perron types, are in abundance.

    Build piece by piece instead of trying to do it all at once. The Oilers need this years #1 draft pick like a moose needs a hatrack. Use it along with the flotsam mentioned above to get what you want OR, because Oilers, wait 2 -3 years until the kid you draft can contribute.

    Most of all stop giving crap like Gagner these ridiculous contracts. Lose it and him and give $2M of it to Perron so you can keep a real hockey player instead. Oilers dont have enough of them.

    Yes CHI and BOS and DET are in a better place due to drafting. Oilers suck at it. Get a new bunch of leadership at the top.

  152. Andy P says:

    Thinker:
    The assistant coaches aren’t the problem. Even if they are bad, which I think they are, it’s the people keeping them employed who are to blame. Lowe’s job has been to oversee hockey operations, and be a sober second thought who can offer expertise. If you saw your GM wanted to make a Tambellini-type trade, would you not intervene. The Oilers problems start at the top. I don’t really think MacT is one of the problems, but I would rather clean house than bet on him. The organization needs a new way of running. I hesitate to keep turning over players, when it isn’t being done right. Everybody should have been moved for picks in 2010 ala buffalo. Instead, we basically half rebuilt.

    We have sucked consistently since the last year of MacT’s reign as coach. One Assistant Coach is the only non-change in that team from then to now. If it’s not at least that assistant, then how do you explain the constant of suck with a complete change in everything else?

  153. RexLibris says:

    Hehehe…Leafs…hehehehe… :)

  154. Pouzar says:

    RE: Chase

    Eric Rodgers ‏@ericrsports · 15m
    @17Mintz He looks like he’s ready for the AHL level. Has some amazing puck sense from what I’ve seen so far.

  155. Woodguy says:

    Bank Shot: I was talking about 12/13 not 13/14. Diaz played the Regehr minutes in 12/13 and got the Regehr results.

    In 12/13 Murray didn’t play on the Habs and Diaz played the worst zone starts on the Habs. He was similar to Regehr in that almost every Hab did better without him.

    When different usage in terms of zone starts has that big of an effect on WOWY and corsi, you have to question how much is player ability and how much is coaching effects.

    Those are good points.

    Zone starts always have a significant impact, especially on D that is starting with the Gordon types

  156. Woodguy says:

    cabbiesmacker,

    I never say never about trading anyone because you never know the return.

    I don’t know how you can trade Yak. If there was ever a player who’s perceived value was far below actual value its him.

    Yes CHI and BOS and DET are in a better place due to drafting. Oilers suck at it. Get a new bunch of leadership at the top.

    You can’t decide on a draft until 5 years out and the early returns of MacT first draft are pretty good.

    I think the drafting has improved immensely but the problem is that you don’t get to experience it for 5-6 years.

  157. cabbiesmacker says:

    godot10:
    The Perron trade was a NOW trade.But the Eakins hire was a BACKWARDS move.The second neutralizes the benefits of the first.

    Why does it have to be a now trade when the guy is 25 and could likely be extended long term at $ 5M ish. Makes a lot more sense than giving Yakupov or gagner that kind of money doesn’t it?

    Why a NOW trade when he’s a stronger contributor than any other F on the team outside of Hall?

    Aquire good players. Keep good players. Learn it. Love it. Live it.

    Oh and lose shit players like SG and longshots like Yak. Dude’s probably whining it up in the KHL in 3 years anyways just like most of the other prima donna Ruskies.

  158. cabbiesmacker says:

    striker:
    Barons win.Khaira looking very good, Nelson throwing him out there to take the last few dzone faceoffs with the game on the line.Looks like a man already, bigger than I thought he was.His skating also looks strong (mind you this is AHL speed, not NHL speed; see Anton Lander)

    Damn that Nelson is a pretty damned good coach isn’t he? Tough to look that way with the hand the senior OIlers hand you every year.

  159. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    The Barons game was tight but fun. The fun mostly came from watching all these disparate parts try to figure out who everyone was.

    Khaira looked great. You see what the appeal is for the team. Part of me suspects after a year in the AHL of lack-lustre scoring we’ll be hearing things like we do with Pitlick: “looks like a hockey player” and I don’t mean that as a diss either. I just mean he looks like a guy that can play but he will probably struggle to score.

    It was interesting to see the twins and not on the same line. Not sure what that was all about… but they are pretty fun to watch. More defensively responsible than I would have suspected.

    If Eager was 5 years younger and could cut the crap he’d still be an effective NHL player.

  160. icecastles says:

    cabbiesmacker: Man. Fools rush in.

    And here you are.

  161. cabbiesmacker says:

    Woodguy:
    cabbiesmacker,

    I never say never about trading anyone because you never know the return.

    I don’t know how you can trade Yak.If there was ever a player who’s perceived value was far below actual value its him.

    Yes CHI and BOS and DET are in a better place due to drafting. Oilers suck at it. Get a new bunch of leadership at the top.

    You can’t decide on a draft until 5 years out and the early returns of MacT first draft are pretty good.

    I think the drafting has improved immensely but the problem is that you don’t get to experience it for 5-6 years.

    Disagree on waiting 5 years to analyze a draft. That’s long even if we’re only talking Dmen.

    Oh and I trade Yakupov in a heartbeat. How many cut from the same cloth do you need man? Ruskies are a gamble at the best of times. The Ovy flack is just beginning to hit the fan and we’ve already seen this kid pull the whine card via his agent.

  162. cabbiesmacker says:

    icecastles: And here you are.

    Using what you know about hockey for comedic relief

    Been a long day and I do appreciate your chuckle providers

  163. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    cabbiesmacker: Disagree on waiting 5 years to analyze a draft. That’s long even if we’re only talking Dmen.

    Oh and I trade Yakupov in a heartbeat. How many cut from the same cloth do you need man? Ruskies are a gamble at the best of times. The Ovy flack is just beginning to hit the fan and we’ve already seen this kid pull the whine card via his agent.

    hahahaha

    quoted for bullshit

  164. Pouzar says:

    cabbiesmacker: Disagree on waiting 5 years to analyze a draft. That’s long even if we’re only talking Dmen.

    Oh and I trade Yakupov in a heartbeat. How many cut from the same cloth do you need man? Ruskies are a gamble at the best of times. The Ovy flack is just beginning to hit the fan and we’ve already seen this kid pull the whine card via his agent.

    You’ve done it now.

    While I don’t share 10% of the exuberance here regarding Yak I think selling low is not the best way to go. But you never know, it only takes one Garth Snow to get some serious value.

  165. Woodguy says:

    cabbiesmacker,

    longshots like Yak. Dude’s probably whining it up in the KHL in 3 years anyways just like most of the other prima donna Ruskies.

    How’s the weather in 1986?

  166. Woodguy says:

    cabbiesmacker,

    Disagree on waiting 5 years to analyze a draft. That’s long even if we’re only talking Dmen

    You are entitled to be wrong.

    I insist on your right to be.

  167. frjohnk says:

    What kind of look are the oilers going to give Chase next fall? Great season in the WHL and from all reports he is doing very well in the AHL. Small sample size, but still nice to see. He cant play AHL, so its NHL or the WHL next year. I hope they send him back, but I think Chase could make it interesting.

    I see him possibly as a David Perron type player. Same size and play a similar type of in your face game.

    Perron was not drafted in his first year of eligibility as he played junior A that year and I’m guessing he was not scouted much that year. In his second year of eligibility he scored
    39 G 44A 83 Pts 83 PIM in 70 Games. Chase at the same age scored
    35 G 50 A 85 Pts 83 PIM in 70 Games

  168. Numenius says:

    Nice to see the Leaves lose to the Jets.

    It’s all Reimer’s fault too.

    Jets 69.6% EV Corsi, 39 SF
    Leaves 30.4% EV Corsi, 15 SF

  169. tcho says:

    Chickens finally coming home to roost with the Laughs. Statistically an even worse team than the Oilers.

  170. Lowetide says:

    cabbiesmacker: Disagree on waiting 5 years to analyze a draft. That’s long even if we’re only talking Dmen.

    Oh and I trade Yakupov in a heartbeat. How many cut from the same cloth do you need man? Ruskies are a gamble at the best of times. The Ovy flack is just beginning to hit the fan and we’ve already seen this kid pull the whine card via his agent.

    There’s not a word I agree with here.

  171. cabbiesmacker says:

    Lowetide: There’s not a word I agree with here.

    And that’s allowed of course.

    Don’t agree he pulled the whiners card and has been sulking at times this year or that Ruskies are a gamble? Long list of evidence there LT.

    As far as how he projects for the future? Neither of us has anything but opinions.

  172. striker says:

    Pouzar,

    Just caught the third period of the game. Nothing more to report really. Just that Khaira stood out from what I saw. Hopefully Barons make the playoffs so Chase, Khaira, et al can get some playoff experience.

  173. cabbiesmacker says:

    tcho:
    Chickens finally coming home to roost with the Laughs. Statistically an even worse team than the Oilers.

    Couldn’t happen to a more deserving team. If only the Habs missed as well life would be perfect

  174. striker says:

    The mini-Flames just lent a helping hand to the Barons playoff aspirations by beating Rockford. tonight. Barons now tied for the final playoff spot in the West.

  175. cabbiesmacker says:

    Woodguy:
    cabbiesmacker,

    Disagree on waiting 5 years to analyze a draft. That’s long even if we’re only talking Dmen

    You are entitled to be wrong.

    I insist on your right to be.

    Brothers in the fight for the right to be wrong

    Which you are in this case of course. 5 years is max time for even the Red Wings

    Still hoping to salvage something after the first OV in 2010? Anything but a chunk of Perron from 2009? 2004 was written on the wall as soon as the first round was in the bag. 2003 the second Lowe stepped to the podium. Sometimes you can see you’re headed for a brick wall at a high rate of speed when certain people are involved in the process. No need for 5 years there let alone 5 seconds.

  176. Jon K says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: hahahaha

    quoted for bullshit

    QFBS. That should be a thing now. Lowetidians invented QFBS.

  177. cabbiesmacker says:

    Woodguy:
    cabbiesmacker,

    longshots like Yak. Dude’s probably whining it up in the KHL in 3 years anyways just like most of the other prima donna Ruskies.

    How’s the weather in 1986?

    I had to check with Kovalchuk, the Kostitsyns, Radulov, and Burmistrov, They say it’s awesome and send their regards

  178. Pouzar says:

    hee hee

    steve simmons ‏@simmonssteve 2h
    The analytics idiots are out in full force tonight. They take glee in every Leaf loss. Hey guys, there is no stat to indicate lack of pride.

    Mark Spector ‏@SportsnetSpec 2h
    @simmonssteve The zeal with which they declare they got one right, makes one think it doesn’t happen very often.

    In other news, filming for Dumb and Dumber 2 is complete.

  179. cabbiesmacker says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: hahahaha

    quoted for bullshit

    Quoted for asskissing and not having a valid rebuttal

  180. Lowetide says:

    Come on folks. Conversation forward. CS is a member in good standing, and so is Rom. Words.

  181. stevezie says:

    cabbiesmacker: I had to check with Kovalchuk, the Kostitsyns, Radulov, and Burmistrov, They say it’s awesome and send their regards

    Kovalchuk likely would have won the Conn Smythe if the Devils had beat the kings. Took him a while to learn to care about defence, but learn he did. He was one of the bet players in the league.

    In fact, my rebuttal would start with Kovalchuk says hi. I might throw in Zubov, Gonchar, Malkin or Datsyuk hollering back.

    We can debate whether or not “bad character” guys are over-represented in Russian NHLers, but I think the conclusion would be “not dis-proportionally enough to justify avoiding them as a rule.”

    I think you could more reasonably say that, because of culture/language/differences in league styles, players drafted out of the KHL are more likely to have difficulty transitioning to the NHL than N. American junior players, but that doesn’t apply to Yak.

    Also, you called a first overall pick who is so young he is still on his entry-level deal a “long-shot”.

    This kind of hyperbole is going to attract attack, and rightly so.

  182. Numenius says:

    cabbiesmacker:

    Dude’s probably whining it up in the KHL in 3 years anyways just like most of the other prima donna Ruskies.

    Yak has never given the slightest indication that he wants to leave the NHL.

    Play for a different coach, yes.

    But not leave the NHL.

    From drive-by comments like this, I wouldn’t blame him for thinking it, though.

  183. icecastles says:

    Lowetide: CS is a member in good standing

    Fair enough but lines like “just like most of the other prima donna Ruskies” start to dance a little close to the line between biased criticism and racism. Do we really want to go down that road?

    I’ve got more reason than most on here to hate Russia, but I would never say or condone to be said that kind of stereotyping.

  184. mumbai max says:

    Kevin Lowe out

    Bob Nicholson in

    I actually don’t think firing Lowe has much effect on things, but this just makes sense. And does not use up draft picks or cap space!

  185. godot10 says:

    cabbiesmacker: Why does it have to be a now trade when the guy is 25 and could likely be extended long term at $ 5M ish. Makes a lot more sense than giving Yakupov or gagner that kind of money doesn’t it?

    Perron will sign for $6.5-$7 million per season as a UFA. Hometown discount will be if he accepts the Taylor Hall salary cap. The top first line guys are getting over $8 million. In 2 years, the top 2nd line guys will all be getting ofer $6 million. Semin is already there.

  186. Chris says:

    Generally speaking trading David Perron would be a mistake. I mean we can all envision a trade where it makes sense for the Oilers to make that trade for example if Poile is deep in his cups and decides that Shea Webber is holding the Predators back etc… But realistically barring some sort of ridiculously lopsided scenario Perron is a reasonably responsible two way forward who scores goals, draws penalties and competes at a high level on a regular basis. This is on a team where the level of competition is often questioned. Trading one of the emotional and demonstrative leaders in that regard seems foolish.

    Its Cosh’s tragedy of the Oiler fan that we have become so conditioned to negative results that the fans look at every good player and start scheming about how said player can be peddled before something bad happens to him. Ideally we keep our good players and acquire more.

    As much as people have obsessed about the defense, this team does not need an incredible defense. It needs a passable defense. In recent memory the Carolina Hurricanes have won the Stanely Cup with a defense core which scared nobody. The New Jersey Devils were recently in the finals with a less than awe inspiring defensive unit.

    The strength of this team is likely to be the forwards. We started the year with lousy defense and lousy goaltending. The goaltending appears to have been upgraded to good – great. If we can get the defense from lousy to okay as long as the forwards are going great guns the team will be good.

  187. stevezie says:

    Chris,

    Pessimism is a part of it, but I think at least some of the the “Trade him” proponents feel the team is broke, talent-wise, and needs to trade some loonies for twonies if they’re going to restock the cupboard.

    We all like David, but right now his trade value might exceed his actual value. Since we are not contenders and desperately need to get better, this makes a trade the sensible route.

    I get the reasoning, but I do not subscribe to it as I think hockey trades are a lot less cut’n dry than currency exchanges. Peron is not a stock; we have a player who fits here, who addresses needs here. Do not move that unless you’re godfathered,

  188. Lowetide says:

    icecastles: Fair enough but lines like “just like most of the other prima donna Ruskies” start to dance a little close to the line between biased criticism and racism. Do we really want to go down that road?

    I’ve got more reason than most on here to hate Russia, but I would never say or condone to be said that kind of stereotyping.

    When people make wrong-headed arguments the group calls them out. Logic and good sense tell us that sweeping statements like that are either hyperbole or poorly thought out. I suspect CS was in a mood to get a reaction.

  189. Colieo87 says:

    http://www.puckrant.com/Apuckalypse_Now/Oilers_to_NHL_Teach_me_how_to_dougie

    @ puck rant interesting article and even more so is the trade he suggests,

    “What if the Oilers gave up Yakupov, Sam Gagner and their 1st round pick in June for Henrik and Daniel Sedin? I’m being completely serious here. The Canucks are going to go full-rebuild, and there’s no doubt the twins will want out if they do. Anyone who doesn’t recognize the quality and leadership these two bring is an idiot. Sad to say Canucks fans, but the Oilers are closer to respectability now than your team is. Could you imagine an Oiler team that has one line comprised of Hall-Nuge-Ebs and the other Sedin-Sedin-Perron? I’m not saying it’s going to happen. I’m just saying if you want to bring in real-deal leadership, you need to be prepared to cough up some real assets.”

    To much fools gold or what lads let me know what you think?

  190. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Colieo87:
    http://www.puckrant.com/Apuckalypse_Now/Oilers_to_NHL_Teach_me_how_to_dougie

    @ puck rant interesting article and even more so is the trade he suggests,

    “What if the Oilers gave up Yakupov, Sam Gagner and their 1st round pick in June for Henrik and Daniel Sedin? I’m being completely serious here. The Canucks are going to go full-rebuild, and there’s no doubt the twins will want out if they do. Anyone who doesn’t recognize the quality and leadership these two bring is an idiot. Sad to say Canucks fans, but the Oilers are closer to respectability now than your team is. Could you imagine an Oiler team that has one line comprised of Hall-Nuge-Ebs and the other Sedin-Sedin-Perron? I’m not saying it’s going to happen. I’m just saying if you want to bring inreal-deal leadership, you need to be prepared to cough up some real assets.”

    To much fools gold or what lads let me know what you think?

    No.

    I love the Sedins, but that is too much for them.

    And, I don’t give up contract control that easy. Yak and this year’s 1st rounder represent a lot of years of control and some years of value contracts. I don’t trade that, or their potential unless it is for much younger players under contract at reasonable terms.

  191. Woodguy says:

    cabbiesmacker,

    Still hoping to salvage something after the first OV in 2010?

    Well there’s a Dman they picked up at 46 who looks like he might be a player.

  192. Woodguy says:

    cabbiesmacker: I had to check with Kovalchuk, the Kostitsyns, Radulov, and Burmistrov, They say it’s awesome and send their regards

    The Kostitsyns are from Belarus.

    They have a different flag and national anthem and everything.

    Also,

    Alex Ovechkin
    Evgeni Malkin
    Vladimir Tarasenko
    Andrei Markov
    Alexander Semin
    Artem Anisimov
    Pavel Datsyuk
    Valeri Nichushkin
    Slava Voynov
    Fedor Tyutin
    Nail Yakupov
    Sergei Gonchar
    Nikolai Kulemin
    Andrei Loktionov
    Dmitry Kulikov
    Nikita Kucherov
    Alexei Emelin
    Nikita Nikitin
    Dmitry Orlov
    Evgeny Kuznetsov
    Anton Belov
    Anton Volchenkov
    Mikhail Grigorenko
    Nikita Zadorov
    Semyon Varlamov
    Sergei Bobrovsky
    Anton Khudobin
    Evgeni Nabokov
    Ilya Bryzgalov

    Say hello.

    And that’s just active Russians from this year.

  193. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Woodguy: The Kostitsyns are from Belarus.

    They have a different flag and national anthem and everything.

    Also,

    Alex Ovechkin
    Evgeni Malkin
    Vladimir Tarasenko
    Andrei Markov
    Alexander Semin
    Artem Anisimov
    Pavel Datsyuk
    Valeri Nichushkin
    Slava Voynov
    Fedor Tyutin
    Nail Yakupov
    Sergei Gonchar
    Nikolai Kulemin
    Andrei Loktionov
    Dmitry Kulikov
    Nikita Kucherov
    Alexei Emelin
    Nikita Nikitin
    Dmitry Orlov
    Evgeny Kuznetsov
    Anton Belov
    Anton Volchenkov
    Mikhail Grigorenko
    Nikita Zadorov
    Semyon Varlamov
    Sergei Bobrovsky
    Anton Khudobin
    Evgeni Nabokov
    Ilya Bryzgalov

    Say hello.

    And that’s just active Russians from this year.

    but none of them will stay and/or they are stupid and I hate them.

  194. wheatnoil says:

    Woodguy:
    cabbiesmacker,

    Still hoping to salvage something after the first OV in 2010?

    Well there’s a Dman they picked up at 46 who looks like he might be a player.

    Right, but 5 years is too long to ascertain the quality of a draft, even for a D… so I’d say that 46 pick is a lost cause… trade him! ;)

  195. frjohnk says:

    Colieo87,

    I don’t know if it is coaching, injuries or just age catching up to the Sedins, but they are not the players they were 2, 3 years ago. When I have watched, when they have not been injured, it seems that they do not have the time and space they used to have. To me, it seems they have lost a step, while the rest of the league has gained a step. They cant do the things they used to, there are definitely some flashes of the past, but not as consistent.

    Both Sedins are signed for four more years at 7M per

    If Henrik were to take another step back next year and Gagner improves closer to last season, which both are plausable, trading Henrik for Gagner would be about even, that means the oilers would be trading Yak and the first rounder for Daniel. We are potentially trading 2 guys, first one ( Yak) who could become an annual 30 goal scorer for the next decade, 2nd guy ( Draisaitl ?) a very good big 2nd line center who puts up 60 to 70 points per year.

    Oilers could get absolutely hosed in this deal, not to mention that they could be paying 14M to two players in 2017-18 who might not even be 2nd line quality.
    Those contracts are albatrosses>

    Gagner and this years first for the Sedins but the Canucks retain 1.5M per Sedin per year and then we are talking

  196. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    John Moore ‏@rinkrant 2m
    Asked if @FlaPanthers would take Ehlers in top 5, Tallon replies “Why not? He reminds me of Patrick Kane & we took a chance with him.”

  197. frjohnk says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    John Moore ‏@rinkrant2m
    Asked if @FlaPanthers would take Ehlers in top 5, Tallon replies “Why not? He reminds me of Patrick Kane & we took a chance with him.”

    While the 2014 draft class seems to lack a franchise type player or even a true number 1, I think this draft is underrated in its depth for top 6 forwards. There might not be much gap in talent between picks number 5 and number 15.

    These are the forwards that will most likely go between 5 and 15.

    DAL COLLE
    NYLANDER
    PERLINI
    VIRTANEN
    RITCHIE
    KAPANEN
    BARBASHEV
    EHLERS

    That s a good list

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