RE 13-14 DAVID PERRON: AND IT STONED ME

David Perron came to Edmonton in exchange for future greats or heartbreaks. He delivered a quality season and was a good soldier. In a season where it’s hard to find a kind word, Perron has universal appeal in Oiler Nation.

DAVID PERRON 13-14

  • 5×5 points per 60: 1.93 (3rd among regular forwards)
  • 5×4 points per 60: 4.03 (4th among regular forwards)
  • Qual Comp: 3rd toughest among regular forwards (top line opp)
  • Qual Team: 9th best teammates among regular forwards (3line linemates)
  • Corsi Rel: 7.0 (3rd best among regular forwards)
  • Corsi for % 5×5: 45.7
  • Corsi for % Rel 5×5: +2.5
  • Zone Start: 48.9% (7th easiest among regular forwards)
  • Zone Finish: 45.7% (6th best among regular forwards)
  • Shots on goal/percentage: 220/12.7% (2nd among F’s>100 shots)
  • Boxcars: 78, 28-29-57
  • Plus Minus: -16 on a team that was -51

RE13-14: 69, 20-24-44 (.638)

ACTUAL: 78, 28-29-57 (.731)

  1. This is a terrific season. I love it. I’ll remember Perron’s first Oiler season for a long time. He’s a delight.
  2. Can you frame his season? Sure. According to the info above, he scored well 5×5 despite playing tough competition with middling linemates. His zone starts weren’t severe, but he didn’t get a push either. Perron’s boxcars and Corsi for % 5×5 were terrific compared to his team without him. He is an excellent NHL player and had a very good year in less than ideal circumstances.
  3. When you say “middling linemates” who specifically are you discussing. Perron’s WOWY tells us he played most 5×5 with Gagner (459 minutes), RNH (277), Hall (254), Smyth (207) and Eberle (202). He also played Gordon (195), Yakupov (176), Arcobello (158).
  4. So, everyone. Yeah, but he played with Gagner a lot. I’m surprised it’s so much (about 40% of his total playing time 5×5). He got 37% of his 5×5 offense while playing with Gagner and 39% of his shots with 89. Graph is here. He does well with Belov. Lordy.
  5. He’s signed for a couple more years? $3,812,500 for two more years. Free agent summer 2016.
  6. Good value? GREAT value. Tied for 26th in NHL goals, tied for 28th in power-play goals. Skilled, prickly, wonderful passer, does things to drive opponents around the bend. A wonderful trade and a very fine player. Wish we had three more.
  7. Downside? He’s not a speed demon, and concussions are part of the past and could be part of the future. I’m frankly thrilled he’s an Oiler.
  8. Wow, you do like him. Anything else good? Sure! 220 shots puts him 45th in the league, and represents a major leap for Perron. He had 114 shots in 57 games in 11-12 and 84 shots in 48 games during the lockout year. Perron will have to do it again, but if this is a change in the weather, well, that just increases his value.
  9. So, he’s part of the team next season. Where? Perron can play either wing, which gives the team some flexibility.
  10. Anything else about his season? At even strength, he played 15:49 a night, tied for third among forwards with Eberle. If the Oilers can find two guys who can wheel with Perron, this offense is going to get 150 goals from their top two lines.
  11. How many goals did the top two lines score this year? Hall-Nuge-Eberle scored 74 goals, Gagner-Perron-Yakupov scored 49.
  12. How did the two lines do at EV strength? Nuge line 53 goals, Gagner line 35 goals. Perron had 19 EV goals, same as Patrick Kane.
  13. When did he start to emerge as a quality player on the team? At the very start. Eakins in September: “Boy I think we got a lot. We’ve got a guy who can score, competes hard, he’s not afraid to get his nose dirty, we’ve let him loose on the penalty kill a little as well, I think we’ve got a well rounded player.”
  14. He’s a real dink, isn’t he? Yes, Perron has the ability to upset the other guy and change priorities. It’s a good skill to have.
  15. I thought you didn’t like the physical side of the game? I’ve never said anything of the sort. The best Oiler teams had a physical element, BUT the physical element could play. In the 1980s golden era, Messier, McClelland, Lowe, Fogolin, Linseman, Coffey, Hunter, Anderson, Steve Smith, McSorley, Beukeboom, Tikkanen and Buchberger could all play the game and be physical. In the late 90s run, Edmonton had Arnott, Richardson, BoBo, Smyth, Grier and others. In 2006? Pronger, Jason Smith, Smyth, Staios, Peca, Raffi, the good to great Oiler teams have had players in skill slots who had a physical edge. I welcome Perron and his antics.
  16. How many players like that do they have on the team now? Among regulars? Well, I’d count Perron, Ference, Hendricks, and I’ll mention Hall—who has a little of the Messier crazy in him, and should let it loose more often, and Yakupov—who is a little sneaky but is capable of doing real damage with that Coke Machine build.
  17. You’ve stretched the Hall-Yakupov inclusion there. Sure, but they do have a physical element to their games. Hall is 6.01, 201—that’s decent size—and Yakupov is 5.11, 186. I think Hall’s an emerging physical player, although some may disagree. He’s a man now.
  18. Are there any minor league and junior forwards who have size? The guys over 200 pounds in the system: John McCarron (219), Mitch Moroz (211), Jujhar Khaira (210), Greg Chase (205), Bogdan Yakimov (200).
  19. Chase is 205? At 19. The kid is a load.
  20. And Draisaitl? Yeah, probably.
  21. What about Pinizzotto? Yep, absolutely. I think he did what the club hoped Hartikainen (last spring) and Joensuu (this year) would do: play with some edge. I can absolutely see him eating Pitlick’s lunch.
  22. And trade? Yeah, I think the Oilers will add a center with size this summer, and a better Hendricks. Perron helps though, he really does have an ability to get people off their game. Underrated skill.
  23. It doesn’t show up in the analytics. Woodguy is fond of saying that if it’s a skill, then it does in fact show up in the numbers. Perron acquired some power plays over the year, I guess that’s not really measureable. Then again, it we acknowledge it, then it’s an asset recognized.
  24. Why this song? One of my favorites. It’s about a specific moment in time, and “stoned” means shocked or stunned. Van Morrison: “I suppose I was about twelve years old. We used to go to a place called Ballystockart to fish. We stopped in the village on the way up to this place and I went to this little stone house, and there was an old man there with dark weather-beaten skin, and we asked him if he had any water. He gave us some water which he said he’d got from the stream. We drank some and everything seemed to stop for me. Time stood still. For five minutes everything was really quiet and I was in this ‘other dimension.’ That’s what the song is about.”
  25. So, David Perron: Time stood still? Kinda. It was an experience to have him on the Oilers. Consider it a scratch itched, an experience enjoyed. Thoroughly.

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118 Responses to "RE 13-14 DAVID PERRON: AND IT STONED ME"

  1. Pouzar says:

    “What about Pinizzotto? Yep, absolutely. I think he did what the club hoped Hartikainen (last spring) and Joensuu (this year) would do: play with some edge. I can absolutely see him eating Pitlick’s lunch.”

    Saw this as well. Have a lot of time for Pinni

  2. Lowetide says:

    On the Lowdown this morning at 10, TSN 1260:

    Alan Hull, Copper and Blue
    Tom Lynn, Vertias Hockey
    Guy Flaming, Pipeline show
    James Mirtle, Globe and Mail

    Lottery! Draft! Preparing kids for draft and pro, and Mirtle’s calling the Leafs season last summer.

  3. LMHF#1 says:

    I wonder how long Perron stays. He’s exactly the kind of second line killer you want, but you wonder if they’ll give him the dough he wants next contract.

    That Eakins quote mentions the skilled PK. I miss that. Hope they give it another go. There’s part of me that would really love to see an NHL team attempt to win during at least part of a season by giving the 5×5 and PK icetime disproportionately to the top six, then have a line of PP specialists in the bottom six. The Oilers actually could have done that at the beginning of this year but it seems like a gameplan from Mars to most hockey people.

  4. sumaclab says:

    Would you do Josh Baily and the Isles #4 pick for Perron? His trade value is massive right now. Unless Matt Moulson resigns with the Isles this summer they are sorely lacking after JT.

    The Isles really are a good trade partner for the Isles. They would be more comfortable having a shot at McDavid next year. The Oilers are looking to add to the rebuild. This year.

  5. regwald says:

    Finished catching up on Ask LT from late last night. We should organize a Kickstarter to fund the book for LT. I would love to read it and have LT spend more time digging and working through the details.

    What says the blog ?

  6. sumaclab says:

    LMHF#1,

    I think Perron’s value is sohigh right now that MacT would do well to use him to get a big winger and or a top 4 defender.

  7. Rondo says:

    OT: Interesting article

    Why do people’s opinions on Andrew MacDonald vary so widely? The answer may be based on how he plays in the neutral zone.

    http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/4/15/5615178/andrew-macdonald-flyers-defenseman-neutral-zone-play

  8. sumaclab says:

    Pouzar:
    “What about Pinizzotto? Yep, absolutely. I think he did what the club hoped Hartikainen (last spring) and Joensuu (this year) would do: play with some edge. I can absolutely see him eating Pitlick’s lunch.”

    Saw this as well. Have a lot of time for Pinni

    Pinizottoin a short stint has shown more than TH and JJ showed in the past 2 years.

  9. sliderule says:

    We need two more players that can score in the twenty goal range.

    Comparing oiler to top scoring teams we are a long way off.

    Ducks Bruins. Avs. Hawks. Oilers
    Top 3 forwards. 96. 79. 79. 91. 83
    Second three. 53. 69. 66. 69. 40
    Bottom six. 57. 54. 47. 54. 31
    Defence six. 28. 45. 46. 29. 27

    You can see our top three scoring forwards compare well.They need to add one scorer and hope that Yak moves into the 20-30 goal range if they are going to compete with those top teams

    Draft one of those top forwards and at least offensively they could be locked and loaded for a few years.

  10. Ducey says:

    sumaclab: Pinizottoin a short stint has shown more than TH and JJ showed in the past 2 years.

    Unfortunately he also showed (and scored) more than Lander.

    Lander 27 gp 0 1 1
    Pinizzotto 6 gp 0 2 2

  11. icecastles says:

    He’s a real dink, isn’t he? Yes, Perron has the ability to upset the other guy and change priorities. It’s a good skill to have.

    I apologize to whoever said it that I don’t recall the source, but a poster nicely summed up Perron for me this season when they said, He’s a jerk, but he’s our jerk.

  12. Ducey says:

    sumaclab:
    .The Isles really are a good trade partner for the Isles. .

    Garth Snow would find a way to lose on both ends of that trade.

  13. Eastern Oil says:

    Pouzar,

    I never really thought about this to be honest, but I definitely agree with it. With guys like Moroz/Chase/Ewanyk 2-3 years away from attempting to crack the lineup, and Pinnizotto playing better than JJ, does he get a 2-year shot instead?

    I would love to see Pitlick stay healthy so we can actually see what he can do, but maybe Pinnizotto is worth it as a 13th forward.

    I attempted to find something by Young Willis on him but did not have much luck. I know he plays hard, can fight, has a touch of the crazy but what is he like on the D side of the puck?

  14. thejonrmcleod says:

    I’m surprised nothing was said about Perron’s ability to draw penalties and his habit of taking penalties. His value would be even higher if he could post a strong penalty plus/minus.

  15. sumaclab says:

    Ducey: Garth Snow would find a way to lose on both ends of that trade.

    That is absolutely funny.Made my day. The Isles are under huge pressure todeliver a winning product to Brooklyn. They could care less about a #5 pick. They need proven bodies that can score. I see the vultures circling from here in Edmonton.

    Garth Snow does nothing and keeps this years pick and the Isles failnext yearthen they give their State rivala shot a generational player.

    That is why I think their pick this year,If they take it , could be had for a pickin next years draft. Snow is in that situation where a guy either picks a slow death from poison,or a quick death from the ax.He is so fraked.

  16. su_dhillon says:

    All MacT has to do now is make this this trade again for a D and C and were on our way.

    The thing about watching Perron was that it feels like we haven’t seen a skilled guy in his age group in a long time or really any players in that age group. For too long we have had guys at the very emrionic stages of their careers or nearing the end, seeing a guy just entering his prime has been refreshing refreshing.

    I think that is a part of Perron’s universal appeal, all we have seen here the last few years is the sausage being made, Perron was fresh from the butcher and ready for the grill.

  17. sumaclab says:

    Eastern Oil:
    Pouzar,

    I never really thought about this to be honest, but I definitely agree with it.With guys like Moroz/Chase/Ewanyk 2-3 years away from attempting to crack the lineup, and Pinnizotto playing better than JJ, does he get a 2-year shot instead?

    I would love to see Pitlick stay healthy so we can actually see what he can do, but maybe Pinnizotto is worth it as a 13th forward.

    I attempted to find something by Young Willis on him but did not have much luck.I know he plays hard, can fight, has a touch of the crazy but what is he like on the D side of the puck?

    Perhaps Pitlick and Pinizotto start on the 3rd line with Arcobello up the middle.

  18. sumaclab says:

    With Andrew Macdonald resigned in Philly at 5 is Coburn now expendable?

  19. Racki says:

    I didn’t think Pinizzotto would be that good of a player. Needed to watch him more but will say that I loved watching him tune Belesky in. If he can play regular shifts too, then fantastic. I didn’t pay much attention to his game outside of hitting (although I did note his two point night). I wouldn’t count Pitlick out just yet though. He had a great showing before that injury. So I’d give him time to recoup and see what he can do next year. I’d like to see some solid vet presence in that bottom six though. So not sure if there will be room for both.

  20. Bag of Pucks says:

    If the Oil end up picking #3, and Draistatl and Ekblad are both on the table, I would offer the Isles either Yakupov or Schultz for the #4 pick. Eliminating development question marks while getting size AND skill in return. Would think the Isles would find a Tavares>Yakupov combination enticing.

  21. LMHF#1 says:

    sumaclab: Perhaps Pitlick and Pinizotto start on the 3rd line with Arcobello up the middle.

    Yuck. That’s 2/3 of a 4th line. Maybe.

  22. RexLibris says:

    Perron acquired some power plays over the year, I guess that’s not really measureable.

    BtN used to keep track of penalties taken/drawn per 60. They have Perron at 1.4 taken vs 1.3 drawn this season, although I know that this site hasn’t been as up to date as some others recently.

    So there are some attempts at measuring the data, but I would say that, by eye, Perron drew heavily in the first half of the season and took more than a few in the waning stages.

    Either way, I’d take him. He reminds me of Henrik Samuelsson in that he is the player that can make the opposition bench so furious that they take their eyes off of another forward for a shift or two.

  23. LMHF#1 says:

    Racki:
    I didn’t think Pinizzotto would be that good of a player. Needed to watch him more but will say that I loved watching him tune Belesky in. If he can play regular shifts too, then fantastic. I didn’t pay much attention to his game outside of hitting (although I did note his two point night). I wouldn’t count Pitlick out just yet though. He had a great showing before that injury. So I’d give him time to recoup and see what he can do next year. I’d like to see some solid vet presence in that bottom six though. So not sure if there will be room for both.

    In the current context, isn’t this a Pinizotto vs Gazdic question?

  24. Bag of Pucks says:

    What’s most important?
    Improving the possession game.

    Give me an example
    Roman Horak helps you more than Luke Gazdic.

    Btw LT, I just had to respond to this comment from your Ask LT post.

    When will this obsession with a single 4th line W end? Honestly, if the Bruins can win the Cup with Shawn Thornton on their 4th line, I think the Oil can turn the trick with Gazdic on there’s.

    Gagner, Yakupov, RNH, Schultz, Petry, Ference. There are so MANY players who this team needs improved play from next season that would have a far more consequential impact on W/Ls, I find it remarkable that we feel compelled to throw bricks at a role player playing MINIMAL minutes.

    If only replacing Gazdic could solve the possession problems of this club, if only it was that easy.

  25. su_dhillon says:

    So I guess safe to say that the Flyers dont believe in analytics

    43.2 GF%: 44.5 CF%, -8.1 CF Rel this year and gets $30Mil over 6 years.

  26. Bag of Pucks says:

    sumaclab: Perhaps Pitlick and Pinizotto start on the 3rd line with Arcobello up the middle.

    Good thinking. McDavid pick here we come.

  27. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    I frankly don’t get this Pinizzotto love.

    From the OKC games and Oilers games I’ve seen, he’s beyond reckless. He loses his steam pretty quick and takes a lot of stupid penalties, think Eager.

    And, from his general game play he doesn’t have the make/take a pass skill needed to get puck deep and cycle it effectively, which a player of his stripe has to be able to do. His decision making skills aren’t good either.

    He is, however, much more willing to throw his body around and mix it up. I see him as a low grade Hendricks. And, that isn’t much. I’d much rather have Pitlick (who’s also much younger)

  28. Hammers says:

    Perron is a great pick up by McT .We must hope he pulls off another deal similar to the Perron deal . Here is the problem we all know that both a center & a defenseman are needed and Perron has greater value than Gags grouping . The old saying of making trades when players are at the top could apply to a Perron . My guess is McT will keep that so called core Hall , Nuge , Ebbs ,Schultz , Yak & Nurse but he needs a trade and as of now Perron , Petry , Marincin , Klefbom have the most value and Gags , Lander , Pitlick are 2nd tier players who may be traded .Perron & Petry probably get the best return .

  29. su_dhillon says:

    Bag of Pucks: What’s most important?Improving the possession game.Give me an exampleRoman Horak helps you more than Luke Gazdic.Btw LT, I just had to respond to this comment from your Ask LT post. When will this obsession with a single 4th line W end? Honestly, if the Bruins can win the Cup with Shawn Thornton on their 4th line, I think the Oil can turn the trick with Gazdic on there’s. Gagner, Yakupov, RNH, Schultz, Petry, Ference. There are so MANY players who this team needs improved play from next season that would have a far more consequential impact on W/Ls, I find it remarkable that we feel compelled to throw bricks at a role player playing MINIMAL minutes. If only replacing Gazdic could solve the possession problems of this club, if only it was that easy.

    Dont think anyone will argue that a change on the 4th line instantly makes this team a contender, the argument is you upgrade at every position you can, ice the best players you can ice. Horak is a better more useful player than Gadzic, your team has a better chance if he is one the ice than Gadzic. Frankly it would be nice if they aimed higher than Horak.

  30. Chris says:

    I’m okay with next year’s forward line up being something like

    Hall – Nuge – Eberle
    Yakopov – Gagner/Gagner Replacement – Perron
    Penner/Winnick – Gordon – Kulimen
    Hendricks – Arcobello – Horak

    We have an in house fourth line which isn’t bad. Its really the third line which needs bodies. The second line could be better even if left the same simply due to the fact that Gagner and Yakupov were so bad, they couldn’t possibly be that bad again. I also like Penner better than Winnick because when you think about it in the event of injury you can play Penner up in the line up.

  31. Ducey says:

    LMHF#1: In the current context, isn’t this a Pinizotto vs Gazdic question?

    Pinizzotto is just 200 lbs. He isn’t going to be an enforcer. More like Dave Lumley.

    I could see sending him down thru waivers to start next season (with Pitlick) and using him for depth when injuries hit. He might play 20 – 30 games, which would be plenty.

    If you wanted to keep him up, maybe you have Pinizzotto – Arco – Gazdik as the 4th line. As Racki said though, ideally you give the spot to someone with more experience and more of a well wounded game.

  32. Bag of Pucks says:

    su_dhillon: Dont think anyone will argue that a change on the 4th line instantly makes this team a contender, the argument is you upgrade at every position you can, ice the best players you can ice.Horak is a better more useful player than Gadzic, your team has a better chance if he is one the ice than Gadzic. Frankly it would be nice if they aimed higher than Horak.

    This misses the point of what Gazdic is. He’s not a fighter jet (Hall) or a humvee (Gordon). He’s an ICBM. He’s sitting in that silo so the Kassian’s of this world don’t think they can smash Gagner or Nuge’s face in anytime he feels like it.

    Obviously Horak’s a better player, but LT fails to acknowledge what Gazdic DOES bring to the table when making the argument for Horak over him imho.

    And yes, the optimal situation would be a team fully stocked with functional toughness throughout the lineup so you don’t need a fighter deterrent. But the Oilers are not that. There is a LOT of wimps on this team (RNH, Eberle, Gagner, Petry, Schultz). Unless that changes, Gazdic is a necessary evil.

    The amazing thing is how easily people forget this. As soon as the Oil don’t have a player like this in the lineup, and the opposition start taking liberties all over the ice, all of sudden the memory is refreshed and the conversation changes drastically. This is one of the problems with a player like Gazdic. You don’t truly appreciate what he’s giving you until it’s not there. Eakins and the players ‘get it’ We know that much.

  33. theres oil in virginia says:

    thejonrmcleod:
    I’m surprised nothing was said about Perron’s ability to draw penalties and his habit of taking penalties. His value would be even higher if he could post a strong penalty plus/minus.

    Very astute observation. I was thinking this myself.

    RexLibris: I would say that, by eye, Perron drew heavily in the first half of the season and took more than a few in the waning stages.

    That’s my thought too. I hope he got a bit undisciplined simply because it’s hard to hold back when the games aren’t as meaningful. Was this an issue in St. Louis? I seem to remember Hitchcock having some issues with him, but I don’t remember what.

  34. RexLibris says:

    regwald: Finished catching up on Ask LT from late last night. We should organize a Kickstarter to fund the book for LT. I would love to read it and have LT spend more time digging and working through the details.What says the blog ?

    So say we all!

  35. regwald says:

    Bohologo: Thought the exact same thing, fully endorse this initiative.

    I particularly look forward to the chapter(s) heaping scorn on the Habs for their skulduggery.

    Chapter ? I think it will be woven throughout every chapter and the closing chapter all about the Habs skulduggery. :)

  36. russ99 says:

    Chris,

    IMO, we need as much as a rework of the bottom six as we did last offseason. Gordon and Hendricks are the only keepers.

    I’d much prefer NHL veterans on the 3rd and 4th line to kids and/or facepunchers – one of which as the 13th forward isn’t a bad idea. Let’s start the season with the best chance to win, but if one or two actually earns a spot over the course of a season, then fine.

    Wow, the Flyers are taking stupid pills: Andrew McDonald supposedly signing a 6y/$30M deal. You’d think they would have learned from Streit…

  37. russ99 says:

    Bohologo,

    And the Gund brothers chapter… I’m in. :D

  38. Eastern Oil says:

    Romulus Apotheosis,

    Without a doubt Rom, I think I was a little too glowing in my previous post as I do not know much about him. I would like Lander higher than the 4th line and I know Pinni could be a cheap bridge to Chase/Moroz/etc. But I agree with your general statements about him as I saw a few OKC games as well as a few of his “moments”.

    I would rather see Pitlick there but with him being an injury concern, a full/near-full season in the AHL would be best.

    I see, and I hope you don’t mind me saying so, that you and Patricia (@Artful_Puck, def worth a follow) talking about OKC/Bakersfield UFA/RFA’s. Who do you see coming back full time with the Barons? Interesting time with some new blood coming in, especially on D.

  39. theres oil in virginia says:

    theres oil in virginia: Was this an issue in St. Louis? I seem to remember Hitchcock having some issues with him, but I don’t remember what.

    I thought I remembered something like this:

    http://espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=400442938

    Perron took 3 penalties that game and think somebody got under his skin. He took a diving call at one point. St. Louis still won 3-0, so there’s that. I don’t know if this was the exception to the rule or a regular habit, but I seem to remember the announcers mentioning that it had been a problem. I’m sure it’s difficult playing right to the edge without going over.

  40. RexLibris says:

    Bag of Pucks,

    I think Gazdic is a more useful player option than the typical “nuclear (pronounced Noo-ku-lur) deterrent” sitting on the bench.

    For someone like Gazdic to be an effective anti-Kassian he first has to be able to play and secondly has to be given the opportunity to not only punish Kassian himself but suggest to the Canucks bench that should anything untoward happen to an Oilers player, something unfortunate might befall a Sedin.

    I don’t like intentional headhunting, but the dirty truth of the NHL is that until these actions are routinely and heavily penalized the realpolitik requires that some teams be made to understand that the game will be played an eye for an eye.

    The beauty of a player like Perron is that he instigates retaliatory behaviour outside of the scope of Kassian/Cooke level of violence. Drawing a 2 minute minor for roughing is a useful way to create a disturbance in an opponent’s game plan. Retaliating against an opponent by turning one of their stars’ cerebellums into soemthing approximating two-day-old gravy is not useful.

    I like Gazdic, and I think he play to a league minimum level. I’ve seen improvements in him this season from beginning to end, so I think he may be a useful player next season. But he has to be able to continue to develop.

  41. su_dhillon says:

    Bag of Pucks: This misses the point of what Gazdic is. He’s not a fighter jet (Hall) or a humvee (Gordon). He’s an ICBM. He’s sitting in that silo so the Kassian’s of this world don’t think they can smash Gagner or Nuge’s face in anytime he feels like it. Obviously Horak’s a better player, but LT fails to acknowledge what Gazdic DOES bring to the table when making the argument for Horak over him imho. And yes, the optimal situation would be a team fully stocked with functional toughness throughout the lineup so you don’t need a fighter deterrent. But the Oilers are not that. There is a LOT of wimps on this team (RNH, Eberle, Gagner, Petry, Schultz). Unless that changes, Gazdic is a necessary evil. The amazing thing is how easily people forget this. As soon as the Oil don’t have a player like this in the lineup, and the opposition start taking liberties all over the ice, all of sudden the memory is refreshed and the conversation changes drastically. This is one of the problems with a player like Gazdic. You don’t truly appreciate what he’s giving you until it’s not there. Eakins and the players ‘get it’ We know that much.

    The problem I have with the ‘deterent’ angle is its very rare that the guy running around and hammering the skill guys is a tough guy that is going to fight Gadzic because those guys aren’t on the ice when Hall or Nuge is.
    Also I am convinced that a guy like Kassian is going to keep playing the way he does whether Gadzic is there or not, I saw plenty of people running the Oilers skill this year with Gadzic in the lineup so I am skeptical how much deterring actually happens.

  42. Bag of Pucks says:

    RexLibris:
    Bag of Pucks,

    I think Gazdic is a more useful player option than the typical “nuclear (pronounced Noo-ku-lur) deterrent” sitting on the bench.

    For someone like Gazdic to be an effective anti-Kassian he first has to be able to play and secondly has to be given the opportunity to not only punish Kassian himself but suggest to the Canucks bench that should anything untoward happen to an Oilers player, something unfortunate might befall a Sedin.

    I don’t like intentional headhunting, but the dirty truth of the NHL is that until these actions are routinely and heavily penalized the realpolitik requires that some teams be made to understand that the game will be played an eye for an eye.

    The beauty of a player like Perron is that he instigates retaliatory behaviour outside of the scope of Kassian/Cooke level of violence. Drawing a 2 minute minor for roughing is a useful way to create a disturbance in an opponent’s game plan. Retaliating against an opponent by turning one of their stars’ cerebellums into soemthing approximating two-day-old gravy is not useful.

    I like Gazdic, and I think he play to a league minimum level. I’ve seen improvements in him this season from beginning to end, so I think he may be a useful player next season. But he has to be able to continue to develop.

    100% agree

  43. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Eastern Oil: I see, and I hope you don’t mind me saying so, that you and Patricia (@Artful_Puck, def worth a follow) talking about OKC/Bakersfield UFA/RFA’s. Who do you see coming back full time with the Barons? Interesting time with some new blood coming in, especially on D.

    everyone interested in the Barons should follow the great Teter. and @tweetneal at a minimum.

    As I mentioned in my post last night:

    http://theoilersrig.com/2014/04/carryin-hockey-lives/

    I think they will qualify Lander, Pitlick and Horak and re-sign Fedun. Of those, I’d bet Fedun and one of the forwards at least start the season with the Barons… but it’s hard to say what will happen with TC.

    As I told Patricia this morning, I figure Holmberg (with the Condors now) and the Joneses end up as AHL/ECHL tweeners next year.

    Of the D signed to for next year, only Oesterle looks like a lock to play in OKC. The others will probably bounce up and down.

  44. VanOil says:

    Gazdic would be great next year delivering a glowering stink eye from the Press box. He would be helping Lowe feel less emasculated by having skilled players and less tempted to trade them away. If you wish to dress him for the odd Stink of Alberta game or Leafs game that is fine. It is hardly lack of skill that is stopping the Oilers from winning against the Flames or the Leaves. Against good teams, or even Vancouver, he should be far away from the ice if you value wining.

  45. Bag of Pucks says:

    su_dhillon: The problem I have with the ‘deterent’ angle is its very rare that the guy running around and hammering the skill guys is a tough guy that is going to fight Gadzic because those guys aren’t on the ice when Hall or Nuge is.
    AlsoI am convinced that a guy like Kassian is going to keep playing the way he does whether Gadzic is there or not, I saw plenty of people running the Oilers skill this year with Gadzic in the lineup so I am skeptical how much deterring actually happens.

    The deterrence only occurs if A) Gazdic fights Kassian early in the game to take him out of it or send a message or B) If Eakins is willing to eat the instigator penalty should a player like Kassian take a liberty that requires sending out Gazdic against him later in the game.

    Yes, star players are still getting hit (run), but there’s a big difference between a hard, clean check and illegal stick work. Gazdic is a very good fighter. He has an impact on the opposition mindset.

    Would you want to fight him? No? I guess that’s a bit of a deterrent then, right?

    Saying these players have no deterrent effect is like saying bouncers don’t belong in night clubs.

  46. rickithebear says:

    I look at Perron And i think of Chicago black hawks.

    In Chicago cup run 09-10
    ESP-PPP-SHP- +/-
    Kane 16 – 11 – 1 – (-1)
    Sharp 15 – 6 – 1 – (+10)
    Hossa 14 – 1 – 0 – (+7)
    Toews 13 – 15 – 1 – (-1)
    Keith 12 – 5 – 0 – (+2)
    Byfuglien 11 – 5 – 0 – (-4)
    Versteeg 12 – 2 – 0 – (+4)
    Bolland 10 – 4 – 2 – (+6)
    Seabrook 8 – 1 – 2 – (+8)
    Hjarlmasson 8 – 0 – 0 – (+9)
    Brouwer 7 – 1 – 0 – (-1)
    Sopel 6 – 0 – 0 – (+7)
    Ladd 6 – 0 – 0 – (+4)
    Kopecky 5 – 1 – 0 – (+2)
    Campbell 5 – 0 – 0 – (+11)
    Eager 3 – 0 – 0 – (+2)
    Madden 2 – 0 – 0 – (-2)
    Bickell 1 – 0 – 0 – (+3)

    you need to have an established Base.

    Campbell and Sopel 11 – 0 – 0 – (+18)
    were replaced by
    Oduya & Rozival 12 – 0 – 0 – (+21)

    Byfuglien; Versteeg; Brouwer; Ladd; Kopecky; Eager 44 – 0 – 0 – (+7)
    were replaced by
    Handzus; Frolik; Shaw; Kruger; Stahlberg 39 – 3 – 0 – (+6)
    for much cheaper.

    this year
    Bolland 6 – 0 – 0 – (-2)
    Frolick 9 – 0 – 1 – (+1)
    Stahlberg 3 – 0 – 0 (-1)

    were replaced by
    Kruger in bollands roll
    Versteeg 12 – 2 – 0 (+4)
    Smith ???????? 8th best EVP total on team.

    there repetitive Base is strong EVP and GD players.

    Hall 64 EVP #4 FWD 6M
    Eberle 44 EVP #31 6M
    Perron 43 EVP #36
    RNH 36 EVP #69 6M
    Gagner 29 EVP #134 4.8M
    Yak 18 EVP 3.775M
    Hemsky 17 on pace for 23 #200 5M does not cut it for a top 6 FWD
    Smyth 16 ELITE PK and Good for Tough ZS
    Arco 15 on pace for 29 #134 Ideal Top ( on the Cheap
    Gordon 15
    Jones 6
    Hendricks 6

    Chicago this year
    Sharp 53 #11
    Toews 48 #18
    Kane 44 #31
    Hossa 43 #36
    Saad 36 #69
    Shaw 30 #121
    Versteeg 28 #143
    Kruger 27 #153
    Smith 24 #192
    Bickell 15

    we have 3 Fwds in the top 40
    we need another in the top 30 to match Chicagos top 5.

    Trading our top 4 is a fools game.

    Our player with who they had the best results with.

    Hall-Arco-XXX
    XXX-RNH-Eberle
    Perron-XXX-XXX
    hendricks-Gordon-XXX

    Yak was most successful with Horcoff his 1st year.

  47. theres oil in virginia says:

    rickithebear,

    Looking at your CHI-EDM comp, it looks like the big diff is in the next several after the top 5, rather than the top 5 itself.

  48. Pouzar says:

    Eastern Oil:
    Pouzar,

    I never really thought about this to be honest, but I definitely agree with it.With guys like Moroz/Chase/Ewanyk 2-3 years away from attempting to crack the lineup, and Pinnizotto playing better than JJ, does he get a 2-year shot instead?

    I would love to see Pitlick stay healthy so we can actually see what he can do, but maybe Pinnizotto is worth it as a 13th forward.

    I attempted to find something by Young Willis on him but did not have much luck.I know he plays hard, can fight, has a touch of the crazy but what is he like on the D side of the puck?

    IMO, we put worse warm bodies out there.

  49. Pouzar says:

    sumaclab: Perhaps Pitlick and Pinizotto start on the 3rd line with Arcobello up the middle.

    Would love to see a Horak-Arco-Pinnizotto line.

    Arco and Horak had some really nice chemistry when Arco was sent back down and before the injury bug hit.

  50. Jordan says:

    Listening to MacT’s presser now (sorry LT).

    Based on what he’s said, he’s not expecting to change ANY of the coaching staff – from his perspective, the right people are in place.

    On a related note, I’m starting a torch and pitchfork business on Kingsway – anyone have money they want to invest?

  51. Marcus Oilerius says:

    Bag of Pucks,

    To this day I don’t understand how the 2 minute instigator penalty – or any penalty at all, including a series of game misconducts – can stop the Oilers from pinning Kassian in a corner and then unleashing MacIntyre on him. When someone needs a beatdown or a crosscheck to the face after cheapshotting one of your players, you eat the penalties, pure and simple.

  52. 719 says:

    Yakupov specifically not mentioned as part of the “core” that MacT spoke of. He said Hall, Eberle, RNH and J. Schultz. Not looking good for the young man…

  53. DeadmanWaking says:

    I just had a stray thought.

    Suppose we win the lottery ball and the ignominy that comes along with four consecutive first overall picks. When we finally win the Stanley Cup (a sure thing if it weren’t for this onerous making-the-playoffs hurdle) everyone is going to pucker up their smug and say “well, you ought to win a Stanley Cup after wallowing in one lucky thing after another” (those voices weren’t on the boards of broken mirrors for seven long years).

    It will still suck that everyone says this.

    But then … about five years after our hallowed cup victory (or two), I’ll be on some hockey board where someone is complaining that the home boys should “follow the Oiler model” and the biggest smile I’ve ever had will cross my face, and the whole damn thing will have been worth while after all.

  54. book¡je says:

    Those wanting to see the press conference, here is a youtube link. For the record, for most live Oiler events (and many other things like announcements by politicians,etc), I find youtube to be the best location to see them as other sites can’t handle the traffic.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk7Mruzdjj4

    You can also jump back and forth through it as you like.

  55. FastOil says:

    It’s been proven time and again that designated fighters do nothing helpful. I see a main reason as being the culture change. Players can keep face while refusing to fight. That wasn’t the case in the past. Kassian wouldn’t fight Smac (career ending calibre fighter) , he’s an ass but not quite retarded, forgive the lack of PC. I doubt Gazdic (tough but you’ll live) worries him.

    Eakins around the time of ‘the incident’ referred to jumping the guy not being an option anymore. The league will allow Kassian to smash a guy’s face in, but the retaliation in attacking him is a no no. It’s still a bush league operation in many ways.

    What has to happen is what Nuge did in the Canucks game, a pretty nice slash on an exposed calf. The only player really that was protected on the 80′s team was Gretzky. The rest were mean enough and strong enough to fight o retaliate for themselves.

    I do think a top 4 D can MAYBE play this role by being on the ice a lot when things go down, if he’s willing to step in. Chara would be an example, horrible to the degree nobody really wants a piece. Other than that it would have to be a guy like Penner, someone who can play with a timid player, and is so big guys don’t really want to go with him, assuming he’ll play protector. A lot of scrums broke up with the opponents looking the other way when he was an Oiler, and allowed Gagner to play his best for example.

    The best thing is for the current guys to learn a bit of French Canadian Perron flair and become a little less boy scout and a little more jerkish. If they appear ready to retaliate the bullies are discouraged, but at the end of the day it’s a brutal game. Just is.

    Learning to accept the pain and be smart about protecting themselves is the best thing.

  56. RexLibris says:

    DeadmanWaking:
    I just had a stray thought.

    Suppose we win the lottery ball and the ignominy that comes along with four consecutive first overall picks.When we finally win the Stanley Cup (a sure thing if it weren’t for this onerous making-the-playoffs hurdle) everyone is going to pucker up their smug and say “well, you ought to win a Stanley Cup after wallowing in one lucky thing after another” (those voices weren’t on the boards of broken mirrors for seven long years).

    It will still suck that everyone says this.

    But then … about five years after our hallowed cup victory (or two), I’ll be on some hockey board where someone is complaining that the home boys should “follow the Oiler model” and the biggest smile I’ve ever had will cross my face, and the whole damn thing will have been worth while after all.

    I have envisioned virtually the exact same scenario taking place.

    Success enables surprising feats of historical revisionism.

  57. denny33 says:

    VanOil,

    Gazdic would be great next year delivering a glowering stink eye from the Press box. He would be helping Lowe feel less emasculated by having skilled players and less tempted to trade them away. If you wish to dress him for the odd Stink of Alberta game or Leafs game that is fine. It is hardly lack of skill that is stopping the Oilers from winning against the Flames or the Leaves. Against good teams, or even Vancouver, he should be far away from the ice if you value wining.
    *********************************************************************************
    Great idea…we would run around all the WC teams.

    More time for the feared 2C Sam Gagner to give opposing Western Conference forwards stern looks in the face off circle.

  58. Ducey says:

    Jordan:

    Listening to MacT’s presser now (sorry LT).

    Based on what he’s said, he’s not expecting to change ANY of the coaching staff – from his perspective, the right people are in place.

    On a related note, I’m starting a torch and pitchfork business on Kingsway – anyone have money they want to invest?

    Poor business model.

    Torches and pitchforks are so 1800′s. The internet has taken their place.

    Now people can just bitch on the Oiler’s site for a while without getting kerosene all over themselves – all the while driving up Katz’s ad revenues.

    For the really dedicated they can pay $400 for a seat so they can throw their $200 jersey on the ice.

    If you were to start up your business, Katz would likely find a way to become your wholesaler :)

  59. Bag of Pucks says:

    Marcus Oilerius:
    Bag of Pucks,

    To this day I don’t understand how the 2 minute instigator penalty – or any penalty at all, including a series of game misconducts – can stop the Oilers from pinning Kassian in a corner and then unleashing MacIntyre on him.When someone needs a beatdown or a crosscheck to the face after cheapshotting one of your players, you eat the penalties, pure and simple.

    Depends on the score of the game and the situation. Clearly you’re not taking that penalty with 2 mins left in a tied game. if you can avoid it.

    Post Bertuzzi/Moore, the league is also a lot more inclined to wade in now with fines and suspensions when a coach sends a player over the boards with the clear intention of fighting.

    The deployment has to be less obvious now, so I think some of the deterrent message that accompanied that in the past is somewhat muddled as a result.

    Fighting is like any other aspect of the game imo. It can be discussed in the context of the greater game with facts, logic and cogent perspectives. When people throw out terms like ‘eye glow,’ it’s clear they have a ban fighting agenda or inherent bias to begin with and thus they add very little to the conversation imo. As of today, fighting IS a part of the game so it’s impact seems pertinent.

  60. VanOil says:

    denny33:
    VanOil,

    Gazdic would be great next year delivering a glowering stink eye from the Press box. He would be helping Lowe feel less emasculated by having skilled players and less tempted to trade them away. If you wish to dress him for the odd Stink of Alberta game or Leafs game that is fine. It is hardly lack of skill that is stopping the Oilers from winning against the Flames or the Leaves. Against good teams, or even Vancouver, he should be far away from the ice if you value wining.
    *********************************************************************************
    Great idea…we would run around all the WC teams.

    More time for the feared 2C Sam Gagner to give opposing Western Conference forwards stern looks in the face off circle.

    You are absolutely correct. Gagner is a better hockey player than Gadzic. There are better players than Gagner, Gadzic is no where close to being one of them. Or, are you suggesting stern looks and head punching is more likely to win hockey games than scoring goals?

  61. Caramel Obvious says:

    The Pinnizzotto talk needs to stop. He has a long and established record. We know exactly what he is.

    Romulus has this right. ‘Zot is Matt Hendricks except with less skill, toughness, and experience.

    The fact that he looked better than Ryan Jones only tells you that Ryan Jones isn’t going to be in the NHL next year.

  62. icecastles says:

    Last week I was heavily chastised by some posters (they know who they are) for suggesting that NHLers are paid, in part, to be role models and that character is an important part of the decision-making process. Since I relish in the few chances I get to say “I told you so”, I present the following from MacT’s presser today:

    MacTavish talked further about the type of player he wants to add to the organization — and the type of players he has added over his 12-month tenure as general manager.

    “We want character. When I took the job over, my mandate was to bring in leadership. We want hard working people, we want competitive people. The strategy is really a simple one. The sophistication is in the execution of that strategy,” he said. “I want players on our bench, when that puck goes in our net to feel as bad as the coach.”

    Character counts. Role models matter. Suck it.

  63. 719 says:

    theres oil in virginia,

    He has a personality and showed up with white skates at his first training camp.

  64. icecastles says:

    Jordan: Based on what he’s said, he’s not expecting to change ANY of the coaching staff – from his perspective, the right people are in place.

    I’m not convinced of that. I think MacT has learned to play his cards closer to his vest (not close enough, but he’s better than a year ago) and isn’t going to throw any ass coaches under the bus until he has at least made those decisions with Eakins. Firing guys through a press conference… now THAT’S bad business.

    I’m almost certain we will see at least one or two new assistance coaches to start the 14/15 season.

  65. icecastles says:

    Bag of Pucks: Yes, star players are still getting hit (run), but there’s a big difference between a hard, clean check and illegal stick work. Gazdic is a very good fighter. He has an impact on the opposition mindset.
    Would you want to fight him? No? I guess that’s a bit of a deterrent then, right?
    Saying these players have no deterrent effect is like saying bouncers don’t belong in night clubs.

    No, it’s not a deterrent. At all.

    If I don’t want to fight a guy, you know what I do? I avoid the fight. Which is pretty freaking easy if I know we’re unlikely to ever be on the ice together. And if I’m a punk like Kassian or Clutterbuck, I’ll happily take the two for one deal of knowing I can injure a star player AND draw a penalty when some non-scoring goon is put on the ice to start a fight with me in a thoroughly ineffective attempt at retaliation. It’s win-win for the bad guys.

    If you want the bouncer analogy to apply, imagine the bouncer outside the nightclub, on the street, taking shots at guys after they’ve already left the club. Except the bouncer is rarely at the right door to find the offenders, and is just going to get charged with assault even if he does find them and lay a beating on them. A beating which is only occurring after, not before, he’s done his damage inside the club anyway.

    The bouncers you are trying to equate fighters to are indeed in the game, of course. They’re called referees.

    You want to punish a player or a team? Score on them.

  66. FastOil says:

    DeadmanWaking:

    But then … about five years after our hallowed cup victory (or two), I’ll be on some hockey board where someone is complaining that the home boys should “follow the Oiler model” and the biggest smile I’ve ever had will cross my face, and the whole damn thing will have been worth while after all.

    I could go with almost worth it :)

  67. Rondo says:

    Nothing Mact says today is going to make Oilers a better team. I don’t care how articulate he is.

    “We’re far more inclined to embrace positive information about our own investments than negative information. We often turn that off,” says Tali Sharot, author of “The Optimism Bias: A Tour of Our Irrationally Positive Brain.”

    What if the “power of positive thinking” is simply a numbing drumbeat that reinforces the positivity delusion, leading us to make blockheaded business and investment decisions?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/the-negative-power-of-positive-thinking/2014/04/11/50f73c5e-bea6-11e3-b195-dd0c1174052c_story.html

  68. Rondo says:

    “Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”

    The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.

    The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man.”

  69. icecastles says:

    Rondo,

    So what you’re saying is, in your eyes, MacT is going to be wrong no matter what because you’ve already decided that you don’t like him. Thanks for that.

    Rondo: What if the “power of positive thinking” is simply a numbing drumbeat that reinforces the positivity delusion, leading us to make blockheaded business and investment decisions?

    If you’re talking about the extreme version of positive thinking espoused by books like ‘The Secret’, then I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a single educated, successful person anywhere who would disagree with you. If you’re speaking more generally of the importance and effect (or lack thereof) of positive thinking, I think two good words to sum up your conclusion would by “cynicism” and “defeatism.” So for the second time in as many paragraphs… Thanks for that.

  70. Rondo says:

    icecastles,

    The only result so far we have from MacT is failure. His expectations this year were not in line with reality.

    And no I don’t think MacT will always be wrong.

  71. steveb12344 says:

    MacT says he is either going to add a very high-end D-man or roll with the young guys. No middle of the road D-men (see Greene,Matt)

    I like it.

  72. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    steveb12344:
    MacT says he is either going to add a very high-end D-man or roll with the young guys.No middle of the road D-men (see Greene,Matt)

    I like it.

    Greene isn’t a middle of the road. he’s an end of the road.

    MacT can always add bottom feeders and not contradict himself.

    I think this comment means, say goodbye to Fayne, Hainsey, Gilbert, Niskanen, Nikitin. No 2nd pair guys.

  73. icecastles says:

    Rondo: The only result so far we have from MacT is failure.

    Trading away Horcoff which many though was impossible: failure.
    Getting Perron: a failure.
    Being aggressive to fix the goalie problem: failure.
    Getting Bryz for nothing: failure.
    Trading him for picks rather than letting him walk: failure.
    Scrivens: failure.
    Fasth: failure.
    Hendricks: failure.
    Keeping Marincin up: failure.
    Horak: failure.

    I applaud high standards, but I think you’re confusing high standards with impossible expectations.

  74. russ99 says:

    Let’s see what MacT’s actions are before getting the tar and feathers ready.

    I suspect if he keeps the coaching staff in place, dumps Yak and runs with the kids on D, he’ll be gone by next year at this time anyway.

    I’m listening to the audio now, and I have to say some of the things he’s saying about Eakins are downright laughable. Can’t tell if he’s trying to push a consistent agenda to the public/other GMs or if he’s clueless.

  75. Bag of Pucks says:

    icecastles: No, it’s not a deterrent. At all.

    The only problem with your argument is it completely ignores the facts.

    After the Oilers acquired Gazdic and the next time they played the Canucks, Gazdic had a little chat with Kassian in the pre-game warm up. Well documented with video.

    I imagine the chat went something like.

    “Hey Zach, how’s the family? So anyhoo, if you try to injure any of my boys, your face is going to look like a jigsaw puzzle with a couple pieces missing.”

    “Hey Luke, the family’s good. Thanks for asking and thanks for the heads up. Duly noted”

    Oddly enough, no Oilers were injured in the making of this scene, nor have any been injured by Mr Kassian since. True story.

  76. RexLibris says:

    icecastles:
    Rondo,

    So what you’re saying is, in your eyes, MacT is going to be wrong no matter what because you’ve already decided that you don’t like him. Thanks for that.

    If you’re talking about the extreme version of positive thinking espoused by books like ‘The Secret’, then I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a single educated, successful person anywhere who would disagree with you. If you’re speaking more generally of the importance and effect (or lack thereof) of positive thinking, I think two good words to sum up your conclusion would by “cynicism” and “defeatism.” So for the second time in as many paragraphs… Thanks for that.

    Books like “The Secret”, and their many commercial spin-offs drive me crazy. Conflating advanced particle physics into some sort of science-based post-modern religion that purports to deliver material wealth using the power of the mind as a tool to reorganize reality is in the same vein as those that argue The Matrix delivered new and powerfully insightful philosophical arguments to human the human experience. It is snack-food philosophy – filled with what appears to be flavour but offering nothing of real substance.

    Sorry for the rant.

  77. icecastles says:

    Bag of Pucks: The only problem with your argument is it completely ignores the facts.

    Nice anecdote. Forgive me if I’m not swayed by your massive sample size of one event.

    Bag of Pucks: Oddly enough, no Oilers were injured in the making of this scene, nor have any been injured by Mr Kassian since. True story.

    By the making of this scene that you openly acknowledge you more or less imagined : “I imagine the chat went something like.”

    I take it these are some of the “facts” to which you are referring? You’re going to have to do better than a single anecdote of circumstantial evidence if you’re going to convince me I’m “completely ignor[ing] the facts.”

    And by the way, I believe the Oilers still lost that game.

  78. icecastles says:

    RexLibris: Sorry for the rant.

    It’s a fair rant. Though if you think The Secret is offensively bad, you should try the Celestine Prophesy. And to add insult to injury, these books are even worse as straight-up literary works than they are as philosophy or pseudo-science.

  79. RexLibris says:

    icecastles: It’s a fair rant. Though if you think The Secret is offensively bad, you should try the Celestine Prophesy. And to add insult to injury, these books are even worse as straight-up literary works than they are as philosophy or pseudo-science.

    Seen Celestine.

    I guess I can ignore that one because it has largely passed by the public consciousness so I don’t see it on a daily basis.

    The dyed-in-the-wool cynic in me wants to write one of these books that convinces others the means to wealth is “happy thoughts and a patented ionic bracelet” as a way of making myself rich, thereby simultaneously proving the theory that embracing positive thinking brings wealth and undermining the entire belief by way of its own crass drive for material gain.

  80. Bag of Pucks says:

    icecastles: Nice anecdote. Forgive me if I’m not swayed by your massive sample size of one event.

    You’re forgiven.

  81. russ99 says:

    “Our development process and development department in my mind is the best in the game”

    Wow, that’s a really tough quote to stomach.

  82. rickithebear says:

    theres oil in virginia:
    rickithebear,

    Looking at your CHI-EDM comp, it looks like the big diff is in the next several after the top 5, rather than the top 5 itself.

    I have stated all year.
    EVGA for top 10 fwds needs to be top 200.

    From the Canuck Game day thread:

    //rickithebear says:
    April 12, 2014 at 1:03 pm

    Lets look at EVG from fwd 1-3 – 4-6 – 7-9 – EVG total – top 6fwdPPG – Overall G
    EDM 59 – 28 – 15 = 102 – 35 PPG = 138
    CHI 66 – 49 – 32 = 147 + 37 = 184
    SJS 63 – 42 – 29 = 134 – 37 = 171
    STL 59 – 42 – 30 = 131 – 36 = 167
    ANA 79 – 41 – 26 = 146 – 33 = 179
    COL 61 – 48 – 27 = 136 – 36 = 172
    PHI 53 – 38 – 31 = 122 – 50 = 172
    BOS 68 – 48 – 27 = 143 – 27 = 170
    PIT 63 – 37 – 17 = 117 – 49 = 166

    Tthere is a reason we are bottom of the league.//

    Our young top 3 is 5 G short of the avg 64.
    Our 4-6 fwds 28G is 15G short of avg 43
    Our 7-9 fwds 15G is 14G short of Avg 29

    That was what I have been trying to Convey since the start of the year.

  83. Bag of Pucks says:

    russ99:
    “Our development process and development department in my mind is the best in the game”

    Wow, that’s a really tough quote to stomach.

    Tough to stomach, that phrase always reminds me of a quip my uncle used to make.

    “No wonder I felt sick, my stomach was full of puke!”

  84. linkfromhyrule says:

    “I really feel (Smith) he’s developing into an exceptional coach. He’s got great rapport and Kelly Buchberger, for all the things he does and the cultural piece that he adds, that gives us a little bit of a tie to a much more successful era. … Kelly Buchberger has a lot of great traits that he adds to this hockey club, but ultimately it’s the head coach’s decision.”

    hmm… I guess the assistants aren’t changing. Hopefully they can figure out how to teach defense.

    That being said, I liked the press conference overall. Reassuring to hear him say good things about Yak and Petry despite the media and stupid side of the fanbase turning on them.

    Looks like he learned not to be so open with his moves lol no more proclamation of bold moves. He said a lot of the right things but this summer he has his work cut out for him

  85. FastOil says:

    “he’s developing into an exceptional coach”

    I guess they really don’t get the whole “is an exceptional coach” thingo. It could be linked somehow to a historically bad team. And appalling and astonishing indifference to ineffective, or, does not work.

    The worse the pain now the more the joy later?

  86. Numenius says:

    Bag of Pucks:
    If the Oil end up picking #3, and Draistatl and Ekblad are both on the table, I would offer the Isles either Yakupov or Schultz for the #4 pick. Eliminating development question marks while getting size AND skill in return. Would think the Isles would find a Tavares>Yakupov combination enticing.

    Note that the Isles would be picking #5 and the Flames #4. Their order changed the last day of regular season.

  87. Racki says:

    LMHF#1: In the current context, isn’t this a Pinizotto vs Gazdic question?

    I assumed it would be until I saw this thread. I assumed Pinizotto was more a comparable to Gazdic than Pitlick but I hadn’t followed Pini enough, so was surprised to read that he could beat out Pitlick for a job.

    I will say that while some don’t like them, I typically gravitate towards enforcer types so I’ll be disappointed if Gazdic isn’t back next year even if because he was replaced by Pini. But I do know the shelf life for one dimensional fighters isn’t long. At least he isn’t terrible.. But I get it. Not helping the team nearly enough.

  88. LMHF#1 says:

    Racki: I assumed it would be until I saw this thread. I assumed Pinizotto was more a comparable to Gazdic than Pitlick but I hadn’t followed Pini enough, so was surprised to read that he could beat out Pitlick for a job.

    I will say that while some don’t like them, I typically gravitate towards enforcer types so I’ll be disappointed if Gazdic isn’t back next year even if because he was replaced by Pini. But I do know the shelf life for one dimensional fighters isn’t long. At least he isn’t terrible.. But I get it. Not helping the team nearly enough.

    I have trouble seeing Pitlick getting a job period unless the forward group gets worse. That’d be just great…

  89. LMHF#1 says:

    linkfromhyrule:
    “Kelly Buchberger has a lot of great traits that he adds to this hockey club.”

    No way.

  90. DeadmanWaking says:

    Sturgeon’s posthumous 2.5th law: the expected utility of submitting a web form is inversely proportional to the number of required fields.

    In the case where each time after you click submit you are dunned with an additional required field *and* on each occasion you have to type (and reconfirm) your selected password yet again, utility declines as exp(-k). If you *also* have to complete a new CAPTCHA on each iteration and you still persist in completing the web form, well then, eff with me black and blue, shame on me.

    I recall one such form of no great import where the form designer went to extra coding trouble to disable “paste” (either by keyboard or mouse) in the confirmation e-mail and password field so you were forced to type these again manually (or so they presumed). I suspect my response–it’s quite a while back–when faced with this severe insult, was to first key my value into the confirmation field, then find some sneaky way to copy what I had just typed onto my clipboard before pasting it into its primary companion field where paste wasn’t disabled. There’s almost always a way around a petty cordon if you think outside the box. I have to confess I would probably resort to editing the web form itself before conforming with manually retyping a form field. Fortunately, while obnoxious forms are common, bullet-proof obnoxious forms are thin on the ground. Very few web-form coders were previously employed engineering pacemakers or heart-lung machines. Must have something to do with job satisfaction.

    After all this friction, much of the internet believes that I live at “666 Unrequired St”, located somewhere in the settlement of “Unrequired”–perhaps a nudist colony–found in any old random province, where people track the progression of years rather carelessly, and the dollar fluctuates madly if they dare to pry that deep.

    End random snark.

  91. godot10 says:

    Pinizotto is 29. It would be foolhardy to waste a NHL contract on him. You will need it for Curtis Hamilton. He was a stop gap because of all the injuries in OKC.

    He is what he is. An AHL veteran who is serviceable in a pinch on the 4th line in the NHL. i.e. He duplicates Ryan Hamilton who is also a 29 year old AHL veteran already signed to an NHL contract next year by the Oilers. Along with Will Acton. Those are your two AHL veteran forwards on NHL contracts. A third would be insane.

    You can only play what plus 25 AHL players at the same time. 4? You can’t have both Pinizotto and Ryan Hamilton on the same AHL squad.

    The Oilers have Hendricks and Gadzic and Pitlick and then will need someone like Kulemin (or Winnik)

    If Pinizotto is on the Oilers roster next year, we are talking McDavid by November.

    Ideally, we should be hoping Hendricks is on the 4th line. Hendricks on the 3rd, and Pinizotto and Gadzic on the 4th or in the PB, neither of whom can play centre is lunacy.

  92. godot10 says:

    Tha TALKING season. All sunshine and light. Since one thing both MacT and Eakins are good at is talking.

    12th place in the Western Conference on December 31, 2014. My line in the sand for PASS/FAIL.

  93. theres oil in virginia says:

    DeadmanWaking,

    I’m Tom Joad, 111 This St, Somewhere, VA. Nice to meet you. I’d like to visit the town of Unrequired some day. I never have figured out what purpose they could possibly have in prohibiting the copy-paste for those forms.

  94. TheOtherJohn says:

    RexLibris: I have envisioned virtually the exact same scenario taking place.

    Success enables surprising feats of historical revisionism.

    When we finally win the Stanley Cup should read “IF” we finally win the Staney Cup

  95. denny33 says:

    icecastles,

    Nice anecdote. Forgive me if I’m not swayed by your massive sample size of one event.
    ***************************************************************************************
    Don’t be swayed….just watch NHL games…

    Chicago or Boston….Mike Brown getting paid to play hockey for San Jose..

  96. denny33 says:

    russ99,

    “Our development process and development department in my mind is the best in the game”
    Wow, that’s a really tough quote to stomach.
    *********************************************************
    Only caught the first few minutes of the presser….

    There are going to be a lot of people in here trying to ‘spin’ that quote instead of understanding where this organization is at with itself.

    He started it off saying how the team really **improved** during the final 30 games….

  97. Ducey says:

    godot10: Pinizotto is 29. It would be foolhardy to waste a NHL contract on him. You will need it for Curtis Hamilton. He was a stop gap because of all the injuries in OKC. He is what he is. An AHL veteran who is serviceable in a pinch on the 4th line in the NHL. i.e. He duplicates Ryan Hamilton who is also a 29 year old AHL veteran already signed to an NHL contract next year by the Oilers. Along with Will Acton. Those are your two AHL veteran forwards on NHL contracts. A third would be insane.You can only play what plus 25 AHL players at the same time. 4? You can’t have both Pinizotto and Ryan Hamilton on the same AHL squad.The Oilers have Hendricks and Gadzic and Pitlick and then will need someone like Kulemin (or Winnik)If Pinizotto is on the Oilers roster next year, we are talking McDavid by November.Ideally, we should be hoping Hendricks is on the 4th line. Hendricks on the 3rd, and Pinizotto and Gadzic on the 4th or in the PB, neither of whom can play centre is lunacy.

    You may want to check your rules before commenting:

    Of the 18 skaters (not counting two goaltenders) that teams may dress for a game, at least 13 must be qualified as “development players.” Of those 13, 12 must have played in 260 or fewer professional games (including AHL, NHL and European elite leagues), and one must have played in 320 or fewer professional games. All calculations for development status are based on regular-season totals as of the start of the season.

    Acton has only 214 games and is still “developmental”. Keeping Pinizzotto on the farm team is not a problem numbers wise. It worked this year and will next year. Eager/ Grebs/ SMac won’t be returning and that is an extra spot on the AHL roster (between them) and three on the 50 man list.

    I don’t think they should re sign Curtis Hamilton either. He has not done enough to be considered having any chance of making it. Not tough enough, not durable enough and doesn’t score enough. A bad combo.

  98. Bank Shot says:

    “We’re building a team capable of winning a Stanley Cup”

    Oh fuck off Mact.

    Why not try to build a team that can finish higher than 28th overall before you dream of cups?

  99. hunter1909 says:

    godot10: Pinizotto is 29.

    Hang on. Didn’t he just play well, don’t good teams keep players who do this?

    ha ha just waiting for the Oiler’s SC finals = the Lottery!

    Kevin Lowe phoned me offered free Dutch beer tonight. Just for noticing. What a guy.

  100. hunter1909 says:

    Has anyone else been sent free stuff from Lowe, aside from the sheer enjoyment to be had, following the NHL Oilers?

    Okay they’re not really NHL at all. What’s a good English lower division soccer team that mirrors Edmonton…one that many long years ago won major trophies, but no one remembers aside from blind Tom the groundskeeper.

    Nottingham Forest are good match with Lowe’s glory boys. Imagine the hell of having to follow that team post Brian Clough, forever.

  101. icecastles says:

    Bank Shot:
    “We’re building a team capable of winning a Stanley Cup”

    Oh fuck off Mact.

    Why not try to build a team that can finish higher than 28th overall before you dream of cups?

    The point is that it’s easy to mortgage the future to get a roster good enough for 7th or 8th place. There are plenty of teams who make the playoffs, even rteams who make it in more often than not, but their realistic chances of getting anywhere near the SCF are negligible. The Calgary Flames through the late 00′s are a good example of what that looked like, and where they are now is a good example of how it ends up.

    Building a team that can be a genuine contender is a slower and more difficult process. They absolutely screwed up the first several years of the rebuild, nobody is contesting that. But it’s a fool’s game to confuse failure to meet the objective with having the wrong objective.

    “We want to contend for the Stanley Cup, but we failed. Therefore we were wrong to want to contend for the Stanley Cup.”

  102. prairieschooner says:

    icecastles,

    Chris Pronger was an ass hole from start to finish .The Oilers put up with his crap because he added way more than he subtracted.
    Talk about character is all airy fairy stuff for me. Professional hockey players are highly paid to execute their skills in the NHL.
    What is the difference between Professionalism and Character?

  103. icecastles says:

    prairieschooner:

    Chris Pronger was an ass hole from start to finish .The Oilers put up with his crap because he added way more than he subtracted.
    Talk about character is all airy fairy stuff for me. Professional hockey players are highly paid to execute their skills in the NHL.
    What is the difference between Professionalism and Character?

    There’s a lot of speculation in this. Call it airy fairy as much as you like, but if the GM says the opposite, I’m going to go with his opinion over yours. Is he right? Irrelevant. He’s the one making the decisions. My point was never about how it should or shouldn’t be. My point was about how it actually is. The presser today made clear in black and white where the Oilers stand.

    There are loads of things in the world with which I disagree. I have yet to successfully wish any of them away.

    Maybe you were a fan of “The Secret”?

    Incidentally, perhaps you can elucidate what exactly it was that he “subtracted”? This is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone saying he subrtacted anything from the team for which he played.

    And in what ways was he an “asshole” beyond playing an abrasive style of hockey? This sounds deeply speculative on your part. Or do you think being made an NHL captain is also completely removed from the “character” discussion? Even you would have to acknowledge that would be a difficult argument to make.

  104. Ducey says:

    prairieschooner: icecastles, Chris Pronger was an ass hole from start to finish .The Oilers put up with his crap because he added way more than he subtracted.Talk about character is all airy fairy stuff for me. Professional hockey players are highly paid to execute their skills in the NHL.What is the difference between Professionalism and Character?

    I don’t thihnk MacT is saying character = being a nice/ moral guy.

    He wants guys who will compete hard and want to win. Thats his definition of character and I don’t think anyone can say Pronger didn’t exhibit that.

  105. hunter1909 says:

    prairieschooner: What is the difference between Professionalism and Character?

    Moot on an Oilers message board.

  106. hunter1909 says:

    I’m less bothered by MacT, now that I no longer have to see him behind the bench destroying Robbie Schremp and countless others, like Rita, Salmalainen etc.

    Now I’ve got Dallas Eakins destroying Nail Yakupov, Sam Gagner etc.

    Kind of hoping for nothing else than another 4-17 start, just to see him canned.

    I no longer associate winning hockey with this franchise, for what it’s worth. Yakupov’s going to be a superstar playing for the Islanders, says me. I hope to be a fan of the Brooklyn Islanders as soon as they’re moved in. They’re going to make the Rangers look like bums, ha ha.

  107. icecastles says:

    hunter1909: Now I’ve got Dallas Eakins destroying Nail Yakupov, Sam Gagner etc.

    Agreed. I was so pissed off when Eakins took to the ice and broke Gagner’s jaw.

  108. Bank Shot says:

    icecastles:

    Building a team that can be a genuine contender is a slower and more difficult process. They absolutely screwed up the first several years of the rebuild, nobody is contesting that. But it’s a fool’s game to confuse failure to meet the objective with having the wrong objective.

    “We want to contend for the Stanley Cup, but we failed. Therefore we were wrong to want to contend for the Stanley Cup.”

    Of course every GM has an objective of winning the Stanley Cup. You just look foolish and arrogant when you are prattling on about it when your team is miles and miles away from even making the playoffs.

    Maybe they should quit talking about their end goal or “vision” for the team as Stanley Cup Champions and talk more about the process of how they are actually going to get better.

    Going with youth on defence and talking about the limitless potential of Justin Schultz makes me think they don’t quite get it.

  109. godot10 says:

    I hope Todd Nelson gets the Nashville job.

    That would probably be the best situation for him and his skill set.

  110. icecastles says:

    Bank Shot: Of course every GM has an objective of winning the Stanley Cup.

    I disagree. I don’t believe teams like the Islanders or Buffalo or Florida have that objective. As a desire, sure. As a specific plan with steps and a timeline? No.

    Bank Shot: You just look foolish and arrogant when you are prattling on about it when your team is miles and miles away from even making the playoffs.

    What alternative would you propose? I see your point, and I get how some people see this as arrogant perhaps. But it’s part of the ‘game’ and part of the business. Selling the plan, selling hope, selling tickets… it doesn’t mean people are buying, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having lofty goals and being willing to say it.

    This is one of those “damned if he does damned if he doesn’t” scenarios to me. If he expresses the sentiment, detractors say he’s oblivious or arrogant. If he doesn’t, detractors say he’s got no plan or doesn’t even believe in his own plan enough to say it.

    Bank Shot: Maybe they should quit talking about their end goal or “vision” for the team as Stanley Cup Champions and talk more about the process of how they are actually going to get better.

    Why do you see these things as being mutually exclusive? He’s talked about both, as well he should.

  111. Bad Seed says:

    icecastles: I disagree. I don’t believe teams like the Islanders or Buffalo or Florida have that objective. As a desire, sure. As a specific plan with steps and a timeline? No.

    What alternative would you propose? I see your point, and I get how some people see this as arrogant perhaps. But it’s part of the ‘game’ and part of the business. Selling the plan, selling hope, selling tickets… it doesn’t mean people are buying, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having lofty goals and being willing to say it.

    This is one of those “damned if he does damned if he doesn’t” scenarios to me. If he expresses the sentiment, detractors say he’s oblivious or arrogant. If eh doesn’t, detractors say he’s got no plan or doesn’t even believe in his own plan enough to say it.

    Why do you see these things as being mutually exclusive? He’s talked about both, as well he should.

    Don’t forget the Oilers on that list. We’ve seen no specific plan here other than to shit all over themselves to get the 1st overall.

  112. Marcus Oilerius says:

    If the Oilers win the draft tonight, the Oilers under Kevin Lowe’s watch will have become a draft dynasty the way they became a Cup dynasty when Gretz was here. Four out of five.

  113. icecastles says:

    Bad Seed: Don’t forget the Oilers on that list. We’ve seen no specific plan here other than to shit all over themselves to get the 1st overall.

    This isn’t constructive. Trolling should at the very least be clever.

    Marcus Oilerius: If the Oilers win the draft tonight, the Oilers under Kevin Lowe’s watch will have become a draft dynasty the way they became a Cup dynasty when Gretz was here. Four out of five.

    He said he knows something about winning… Turns out he was right. Guess we should have asked him to specify? :)

  114. stevezie says:

    icecastles,

    Of course I can’t report any of this as fact, but Pronger is fairly notorious for being a pretty ruthless leader in the locker room. Jamie Mclenan mentioned in his book about what a merciless hardass he was on teammates, and what a demanding person he was in general. (He followed it up with tales of how much he gave- not just as a player but as a friend. Pronger expects of you what Pronger expects of Pronger.)

    In Philly the word on the street was there was a pretty serious rift in the locker room because as soon as Pronger arrived he decided to take over from Richards. Heresay, but we’ve heard a lot of it and the way that situation played out fits in.

    Also he is the second most suspended person in league history. At best, he showed a disregard for other people’s safety. At worst, a malice to match Messier.

    Also, look at that smug, self-satisfied bastard. Just look at him.

    I don’t know that any of these things took away from the team. You could argue they all added. But they do qualify him as at least some type of asshole.

    He’s also the best hockey player I’ve seen since Lemieux. Lidstrom was more consistent, but I think Pronger had a higher apex.

  115. prairieschooner says:

    .

    Fair Comment Ice Castle
    Maybe someone should have asked MacT what he meant by character maybe he would rapped his press notes on his chest and said “Heart, we gotta have heart” it used to be truculence was the buzz word.
    I don’t know if my opinion is speculative or deeply speculative but the antics around Pronger leaving Edmonton were those of someone who lacks character which I believe make him an asshole.
    To confirm my opinion of Pronger I participated in an event in which he was hired as a keynote speaker by a major corporation.

    He showed up one hour late keeping attendees sitting twiddling their thumbs

    He did not inform the organisers that he was running late blaming his phone for not working

    He had no key note speech to offer the attendees

    I am thinking Asshole!

    Captaincies are offered to players for many different reasons, most popular, hardest working, best player, most ice time, honestly I could easily give Pronger the job if I was in charge.
    The “secret” is too deep for me.

  116. icecastles says:

    stevezie: Of course I can’t report any of this as fact, but Pronger is fairly notorious for being a pretty ruthless leader in the locker room. Jamie Mclenan mentioned in his book about what a merciless hardass he was on teammates, and what a demanding person he was in general. (He followed it up with tales of how much he gave- not just as a player but as a friend. Pronger expects of you what Pronger expects of Pronger.)

    Jesus. Chris Pronger was the Steve Jobs of hockey.

    stevezie: In Philly the word on the street was there was a pretty serious rift in the locker room because as soon as Pronger arrived he decided to take over from Richards. Heresay, but we’ve heard a lot of it and the way that situation played out fits in.

    I recall this. I’d love to know what really happened there. One of those stories where regardless of what the truth is, it’s probably a good story.

    stevezie: Also he is the second most suspended person in league history. At best, he showed a disregard for other people’s safety. At worst, a malice to match Messier.

    Not a minus to his team though. Just evil to play against.

    stevezie: Also, look at that smug, self-satisfied bastard. Just look at him.

    Okay, I’m with you now. Fuck that guy.

    stevezie: He’s also the best hockey player I’ve seen since Lemieux. Lidstrom was more consistent, but I think Pronger had a higher apex.

    I spent the first part of his career (pre-oilers) ignoring pro hockey, and the latter part (post-oilers) hating him. I missed out on being able to appreciate one of the modern giants.

  117. stevezie says:

    icecastles:

    I spent the first part of his career (pre-oilers) ignoring pro hockey, and the latter part (post-oilers) hating him. I missed out on being able to appreciate one of the modern giants.

    It gave me an appreciation for defensive defenceman that lasts to this day. When Pronger was on the ice, you just didn’t need to worry. I think he went the first seven game without being on the ice for an even strength goal against- playing in front of Ty Conklin, “yes the” Ty Conklin!

    Of course it is now widely understood that a good defensive defenceman must be able to move the puck, or what’s the point? If Pronger was 5’7″ he could have still played, he passed so well.

    I’m no expert- I’m just a guy with a heavy Smyth divison bias. I think the highest level a player can achieve is controlling the game. Lemieux did that. When he was out there everything that happened was a reaction to him. He bent the game to his will. No one since then could do that better than Pronger. No one. (Just, admittedly, not all the time. A few seasons where he was only “really good”.)

    That anyone anywhere thought anybody else deserved the Conn Smyth trophy is cause for abandoning the democracy experiment.

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