HARVEST MOON 2014

The Edmonton Oilers 2014 Entry Draft is in the books, and as expected it reminds of 2008. That season, Jordan Eberle was the big selection in the first round, and then it was a long time waiting for another selection. That season, when it came turn for the Oilers to pick, they grabbed a Swedish defenseman, same as this time. In 2008, deep inside the draft the late-round gem appeared (Teemu Hartikainen) and we recognized him right away. This year? Same thing.

In the 2008 Harvest post I wrote:

  • Round Six: C Teemu Hartikainen. This is the type of player who can get somewhere from this point in the draft. Good size and strength combination, he has feet of clay but some pluck and desire. Finns seem to be genetically predisposed to playing well in the North American style and based on his resume this fellow would seem like a worthy candidate. The third most valuable player taken by the Oilers this weekend.

And we may have another ‘Hartikainen’ this year. More on that in a moment.

Earlier today, we discussed the value of the picks on Day Two. I suggested we should expect a career anywhere from Teemu Hartikainen to Zack Stortini from these picks, and that remains true. Harski’s career total in GP  is 52, Stortini’s is 257. Somewhere in here is that player, and maybe he becomes Jason Chimera. The good thing for us today: we know who he is, and we certainly know who he isn’t.

HARVEST MOON 2014

  • Round 1, No. 3 overall: C Leon Draisaitl, Prince Albert WHL. 64GP, 38-67-105. NHLE: 82gp, 15-25-40. Bruce McCurdy compared him to a nose tackle, and I think that’s a very good description (if the nose tackle was the quarterback). Wonderful possession center with size, expert passer and creative thinker. Oilers love the big brains, imagine he has a big that, too. An extremely valuable young man.
  • Round 4, No. 91 overall: D William Lagesson, Frolunda Swedish Jr. 44GP, 8-12-20. Scrappy defenseman with size and an idea about how to get the puck up effectively, he was very impressive at the U18′s (7GP, 3-0-3 +5) and is a worthy selection. He’s 6.03, 203 so the size that opened with the Draisaitl selection continues here, although I would not call either a Coke Machine selection.
  • Round 4, No. 111 overall: G Zach Nagelvoort, Michigan NCAA. 24GP, 2.20 .929 I don’t think they needed to take a goalie here, but if they were going to take one Nagelvoort was a good one. A .929 save percentage out of the box in college? Yes, please. He’s 20, so may not turn pro until his prime, but I’m fine with the player.
  • Round 5, No. 130 overall: C Liam Coughlin, Vernon BCJHL. 53GP, 18-27-45. NHLE 82gp, 4-6-10. This is the ‘Evan Campbell Special’. At 17, Jujhar Khaira—who is shy offensively as an NHL prospect—scored 1.46 points-per-game in the BCJHL. At 19, Coughlin scored less than a point-per game. Kirk Luedeke’s text to me: “Big kid, can skate. Had him as my “super sleeper” a year ago, but didn’t see him at Vernon. Raw as hell but passionate, industrious.” Saw him good. I like that. Would love 20 more points from the BCJHL season and it’s hard to justify this pick at No. 130 when there was so much left on the table.
  • Round 6, No. 153 overall: R Tyler Vesel, Omaha USHL. 49GP, 33-38-71. NHLE: 82gp, 15-17-32. This is our Hartikainen. Although he’s an older prospect, and should have dominated (which he did), there’s a nice history of offense with this player. I don’t really care about his obscurity, and those numbers are just really good. There’s plenty to criticize in this draft, but the Vesel pick isn’t one of them.
  • Round 7, No. 183 overall: G Keven Bouchard, Val d’Or QMJHL. 27GP, 2.95 .887. I’m not going to speak at length about goaltenders, because they are miles from my area of expertise. An .887 save percentage is not a good one. Suspect someone saw him good.

This was not a good draft year overall, but I believe the Oilers made it less effective than it could have been via goalies and saw him good. I really like the German, the Swede, the Dutchman and the kid from Rochester. Luedeke’s stories about Coughlin have me curious, but I don’t  think that’s a pick that will hold it’s value based on what we know.

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167 Responses to "HARVEST MOON 2014"

  1. VanOil says:

    About bloody time. You must of taken a good 2 hours between posts there. Lollygagging Schultz style.

    A 2 Nuge Nose Tackle. Is all the we can reasonably expect from this draft. But that is not a bad return.

  2. spoiler says:

    A recap of today’s trades:

    Toronto dealt Carl Gunnarsson and a fourth-round pick in the draft to the St. Louis Blues in exchange for defenceman Roman Polak.

    The Calgary Flames traded their third-round selection, 83rd overall, to the Chicago Blackhawks for forward Brandon Bollig.

    Canucks traded the 50th pick in the Draft to the Los Angeles Kings for forward Linden Vey.

    The Winnipeg Jets sent the 159th pick in the draft and goaltender Eddie Pasquale to the Washington Capitals for 164th overall selection, 192nd pick and seventh round pick in 2015.

    Rumour du Jour::

    @TSNBobMcKenzie: MTL D Josh Gorges’ name is out there in trade talk. TOR made a pitch for Gorges but no CDN team is on list of 15 teams he can be dealt to.

  3. striatic says:

    I like the Vesel pick and love the Nagelvoort pick, but Coughlin seems like a waste of a pick in the 5th round. Total walkabout.

    At least the walkabout is happening in the 5th round and not the 2nd or 3rd, but still so typical.

  4. Rondo says:

    LT,

    Do you think Calgary had Draisaitl ahead of Bennett on their list.

    I don’t think Edmonton saw much value in the draft after a certain point , they had assets if they wanted a 2nd or 3rd round pick

  5. Lowetide says:

    Rondo:
    LT,

    Doyou think Calgary hadDraisaitl ahead of Bennett on their list.

    Literally no idea, wouldn’t even guess. I think we shouldn’t be surprised if they did, though.

  6. One-Timer says:

    So overall the drafting was about a B-minus?

    Factoring in Perron and Scrivens, is it close to an A for the Oil this year?

  7. Marc says:

    spoiler:
    A recap of today’s trades:

    Toronto dealt Carl Gunnarsson and a fourth-round pick in the draft to the St. Louis Blues in exchange for defenceman Roman Polak.

    The Calgary Flames traded their third-round selection, 83rd overall, to the Chicago Blackhawks for forward Brandon Bollig.

    Canucks traded the 50th pick in the Draft to the Los Angeles Kings for forward Linden Vey.

    The Winnipeg Jets sent the 159th pick in the draft and goaltender Eddie Pasquale to the Washington Capitals for 164th overall selection, 192nd pick and seventh round pick in 2015.

    Rumour du Jour::

    @TSNBobMcKenzie: MTL D Josh Gorges’ name is out there in trade talk. TOR made a pitch for Gorges but no CDN team is on list of 15 teams he can be dealt to.

    That’s nothing compared to the Oilers though. They went a bit off piste with their fifth and seventh round picks!!!!!

    Heads must roll!!!

    Someone must pay!!!!!

  8. Rondo says:

    Lowetide,

    Size seems to be the theme in the West.

  9. Lowetide says:

    One-Timer:
    So overall the drafting was about a B-minus?

    Factoring in Perron and Scrivens, is it close to an A for the Oil this year?

    If we’re discussing strictly using assets for assets? A. That was a good use of second and third round selections.

  10. One-Timer says:

    Lowetide,

    Right on. MacT can now head into the FA frenzy with bags of cap space cash. This could be the most productive segment of the rebuild in years.

  11. VanOil says:

    With Ekblad in Florida and Draisaitl in Edmonton surely Gagner for Kulikov makes sense for both sides. Or do they both wait until the first rush of free agency is over?

  12. FPB94 says:

    Coughlin picked in the Oiler tradition of picking guys who’s best outcome possible is worth less than the pick they used.

    Really like Draisatil and Vesel tho.

    Probably one of the best 1st rounds in a long while.

    Worst picks: Mcean, Larkin, Bleakley and Quenneville.

  13. spoiler says:

    Couple more:

    Capitals GM Brian MacLellan claims money is “a little prohibitive right now” in his efforts to re-sign Mikhail Grabovski, who is believed seeking up to $5 million per season.

    The Pittsburgh Penguins could have interest in signing Leafs pending UFA winger Nikolai Kulemin, who’s a friend of Penguins star Evgeni Malkin.

    From Spector’s Hockey Rumours.

  14. FPB94 says:

    Josh Gorges is apparently up for trades, interest over here?

  15. Melman says:

    Agonizing over a 5th in a weak draft seems a bit like picking the pepper out of fly poop. If your scout who has logged umpteen miles to drink rink coffee is pushing for a guy he “saw good”, I think it’s OK to throw him a bone in the late rounds from time to time. As an org it gives you an opportunity to evaluate your scout on a pick that has a what? 6% chance of making the show.

    Edit: I’m so happy they got Leon everything after that was just gravy

  16. spoiler says:

    I’m not sure I can watch the Eskies attempt to play football this year.

  17. FPB94 says:

    Melman,

    Doesn’t mean you have a bad percentage you can make it even worse. It’s this kind of ”reward system” that makes the Oilers be in the shit hole; they haven’t had a lot beyond round 1 for a while now and it’s killing them

  18. Younger Oil says:

    FPB94:
    Josh Gorges is apparently up for trades, interest over here?

    McKenzie said that he refuses to go to any Canadian team IIRC.

  19. FPB94 says:

    Younger Oil,

    That’s pretty odd. Well still, I suppose there can be some convincing.

    PS: I think it’s fucking dumb players can ask for trades and then use their NTC (like Spezza and Heatley, not Gorges ofc)

  20. Younger Oil says:

    Lowetide:
    No. 209

    http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160320

    No. 210

    http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160296

    That’s how you reward your scouts.

    This. All day, this.

    Those two might turn out to be the best F and D picked after the 3rd round. Most mock drafts had them going in the top 100.

  21. striatic says:

    FPB94,

    NTC. He wouldn’t come to Edmonton.

  22. limit says:

    Like many other posters, chalk me up for Mayo + Watson > Coughlin + Bouchard

  23. FastOil says:

    If Vesel is 180 as DB lists I can live with the chance he keeps producing. If he 163 as your post had about him It seems like a wasted pick because even if he’s good the Oilers won’t have him and don’t seem to know how to cash small skill as the Lightning and Hawks have.

    The Oilers have serious issues with the pipeline and while it’s hard to find late round NHL players there are better odds to take than they seem to be able to get their heads around. It’s disappointing. At least the important ones weren’t goofed.

  24. One-Timer says:

    There’s some irony with Watson falling all the way down to the Kings’ last pick, if his size was the issue. Then again, they tweaked towards more skill for this last cup run.

  25. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Recall that Brossoit had an .887 SV% in his draft year too, LT. You can dislike that they took 2 goalies, but complaining about his SV% is not a valid reason. Most CHL goalies from rounds 3-7 have poor SV%s, and they’re typically even lower in the QMJHL.

  26. striatic says:

    Wasting a 5th round pick wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t indicative of a continuation of a philosophy that over time has produced nothing even remotely close to producing a return at the NHL level.

    It is the sort of thing where over time those percentages add up and this franchise more than any others needs to adopt a strategy of using the entire buffalo if they want to advance.

  27. Derek says:

    Lowetide:
    “Wonderful possession center with size, expert passer and creative thinker. Oilers love the big brains, imagine he has a big that, too. An extremely valuable young man.”

    Wait… What?

    Lowetide:
    “Oilers love the big brains, imagine he has a big that, too.”

    Oh dear, is LT channeling Pierre Mcguire?

  28. FPB94 says:

    Just a comparison of what’s been produced beyond the 1st round for the last 10 years, all final four teams and the Oilers.

    Oilers: Reddox, Peckham, Omark, Hartikainen, Lander (1 NHL job, 1 still with team)

    Canadiens: Emelin, Grabovski, Streit, Latendresse, D’Agostini, Kostitsyn, White, Weber, Subban, Gallagher, (8 NHL jobs, 1 Norris, 1 KHL job, 4 still with team)

    KIngs: Quick, Simmonds, Martinez, King, Voynov, Loktionov, Clifford, Toffoli (8 NHL jobs, 1 Vezina, 5 still with team)

    Rangers: Dubinsky, Callahan, Pyatt, Anisimov, Hagelin, Weise, Stepan, Horak, (8 NHL jobs, 1 traded for all-star, 2 sitll with team) (But they traded these guys for useful pieces)

    Blackhawks: Bickell, Bolland, Brouwer, Hjallmarson, Kruger, Shaw, Saad, Smith (8 NHL jobs, 5 still with team).

    Oilers’ record is appallingly bad.

    Good teams fuel partly on their late round picks.

  29. jfry says:

    We also signed some high end 20 year olds to ahl/echl contracts this spring which i think helps save the procurement season a little.

    Gotta figure watson is really about 5’2″ for him to have dropped that far.

    I like vey for a 50 pick.

  30. sliderule says:

    Lowetide:
    No. 209

    http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160320

    No. 210

    http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160296

    That’s how you reward your scouts.

    Those last few picks by Stu pretty much show how little value they see in later round picks.

    Mact has charged his head scout to improve his later picks.

    I don’t think he will have to wait five years to prove the folly of these picks.

  31. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Younger Oil: Do you know if there were any CHL prospects in their first year of eligibility who put up a point per game and didn’t get drafted?

    Tkachev.

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=211956

    little offensive juggernaut.

    Red Line had him 58th OV

  32. Lowetide says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    Recall that Brossoit had an .887 SV% in his draft year too, LT. You can dislike that they took 2 goalies, but complaining about his SV% is not a valid reason. Most CHL goalies from rounds 3-7 have poor SV%s, and they’re typically even lower in the QMJHL.

    Fair enough, and I’ll freely admit that goaling isn’t something I like seeing my team devote 33% of their picks to.

  33. Andy P says:

    Lowetide: Literally no idea, wouldn’t even guess. I think we shouldn’t be surprised if they did, though.

    Somehow I’d rather have Nuge or Draisatl facing Bennett than Nuge or Bennett facing our shiny new Panzer. I think there are some long nights ahead for the “smaller” players that have to deal with Leon.

  34. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    sliderule: Those last few picks by Stu pretty much show how little value they see in later round picks.

    Mact has charged his head scout to improve his later picks.

    I don’t think he will have to wait five years to prove the folly of these picks.

    I think they started with such a low bar.

    My post on MacT and “impact players” the other day got into this.

    Some kind of crisis hit after 2009 with the Abney and Hesketh picks.

    Stu was told not to do that again. But he wasn’t fired. Bob Brown was told not to do that again. But wasn’t fired.

    Now we get Bob Brown giving us what he thinks an “impact player” looks like.

    And, I’ll give him this. He’s setting the bar higher than Abney.

    But, two years running he’s pegged over-aged BCHL players who can’t score much in a poor league in which they are much bigger and stronger and older than the other players.

    Here’s the under 20 players from that league:

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?season=2013&leagueid=BCHL&nation=&sort=u20

    Coughlin is actually a step back from Campbell

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?season=2012&leagueid=BCHL&nation=&sort=u20

    Seriously. Fire Bob Brown.

    Also… Dancs left on the board.

  35. Henry says:

    I like the look of the 4th rounders. .929 is pretty impressive in the NCAA. If necessary Nag can develop in a good program until he is 23 when the Oilers should have a pretty good idea of what they have.

    The defenseman’s description makes him sound like a Swedish Niiniimaa. Maybe without the skating.

  36. FPB94 says:

    Lowetide: Fair enough, and I’ll freely admit that goaling isn’t something I like seeing my team devote 33% of their picks to.

    Darcy Kuemper is the only NA goalie who had less than ,900 regardless of league and finished in the top 30 of league SV% in the last 2 years lel. (to add to the point)

  37. Lowetide says:

    I didn’t even get into Dancs, because he’s an acquired taste and I get why people may not like him. But I read him good, and for me he would have been such a great pick. The promise of last season is lost, and we’re back to these picks we stare at, walk away from, stare at again, walk away from.

  38. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Also,

    I agree with LT here.

    I really like the Swede and I think the College G and Vesel are interesting reasonable picks, if high for me (I’d also prefer to find these guys in free agency), I’d have taken the little scorers as my twitter feed suggests.

    The second goalie is baffling. And the Evan Campbell 2.0 pick nuts.

    Also… I was pretty troubled by Stu saying he had to “fight with” MacT to get the Gs taken.

    two points on that:

    1. maybe this relationship isn’t working out.

    2. I’m really not happy that you stood your ground, fought hard for a pair of players and this is all you got to show for it.

  39. Caramel Obvious says:

    I’m torn. On the one hand missing out on Watson is appallingly bad. On the other, when there are 28 1/2 of your colleagues agree with you, you are standing on the far side of the majority.

    So I’m not going to worry about it too much. Watson may punch above his weight and turn into Toni Rajala. That’s both doing pretty well and yet still nothing.

    Remember folks, we could be Toronto which has lit the franchise on fire the past two years.

    Nonis is even worse than Tambellini, if such a thing were possible.

  40. FPB94 says:

    Well I guess next time I get lectured by how I can’t know more than professional coffee drinkers around the draft I can just point out the past few years.

    Surprise: Dumb people get high importance jobs.

  41. Younger Oil says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: I think they started with such a low bar.

    My post on MacT and “impact players” the other day got into this.

    Some kind of crisis hit after 2009 with the Abney and Hesketh picks.

    Stu was told not to do that again. But he wasn’t fired. Bob Brown was told not to do that again. But wasn’t fired.

    Now we get Bob Brown giving us what he thinks an “impact player” looks like.

    And, I’ll give him this. He’s setting the bar higher than Abney.

    But, two years running he’s pegged over-aged BCHL players who can’t score much in a poor league in which they are much bigger and stronger and older than the other players.

    Here’s the under 20 players from that league:

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?season=2013&leagueid=BCHL&nation=&sort=u20

    Coughlin is actually a step back from Campbell

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/league.php?season=2012&leagueid=BCHL&nation=&sort=u20

    Seriously. Fire Bob Brown.

    Also… Dancs left on the board.

    Agreed on all points, that pick is indefensible IMO. Absolutely baffling.

    Also, the top scorer under 20 in the BCHL league, Adam Rockwood, is 5’4”, 115lbs! Not sure what that says about him as a player, or the BCHL as a league, but I was very surprised to see that!

    Edit: HockeyDB says 5’10”, 175lb, must have been a very old measurement.

  42. spoiler says:

    That’s probably the worst screen play I’ve seen in a few years, and yet somehow the Esks are in a one point game.

  43. spoiler says:

    Lowetide: Fair enough, and I’ll freely admit that goaling isn’t something I like seeing my team devote 33% of their picks to.

    Why are you looking at such a small sample size?

  44. Henry says:

    Caramel Obvious,

    Precisely so. The Gunnarson trade is perplexing. It will be interesting to see how he looks under Hitch and Polak under Carlyle.

  45. godot10 says:

    FPB94:
    Just a comparison of what’s been produced beyond the 1st round for the last 10 years, all final four teams and the Oilers.

    Oilers: Reddox, Peckham, Omark, Hartikainen, Lander (1 NHL job, 1 still with team)

    Jeff Petry, Martin Marincin.

  46. spoiler says:

    Henry:
    Caramel Obvious,

    Precisely so.The Gunnarson trade is perplexing.It will be interesting to see how he looks under Hitch and Polak under Carlyle.

    Leafs were desperate for a RHS defenceman. All they had was Franson.

  47. FPB94 says:

    godot10

    1 more stable NHL job, 1 more hopeful; It’s still shit.

  48. Henry says:

    spoiler,

    Will they move Gardiner next to Dion? Or Dion to the left side with Polak?

  49. Lowetide says:

    spoiler: Why are you looking at such a small sample size?

    Because the 2nd pick and the Evan Campbell pick ruined a perfectly good day. Put Dancs and Mayo or Irving and Watson in place of them and music!

  50. Henry says:

    FPB94:
    godot10

    1 more stable NHL job, 1 more hopeful; It’s still shit.

    FPB94,

    It’s a given that development, drafting, poor goaltending 2009-2013, poor trades from 2007-2012 and inappropriate free agent pickups have led to much badness.

    Each category has been better since April 2013 though I know little about this draft crop. This team will get better. They will.

  51. RexLibris says:

    So now we start the clock running on the 2015 draft.

    Rumoured to be deep, and with this draft class likely to disappoint, shall we suggest that it would be foolhardy for the Oilers to begin trading away picks too soon?

    As it sits right now the Oilers have a 1st, 2nd, two 3rds, a 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th.

    Given that the organization will likely need to restock the cupboard of junior-level talent next June, how many of those picks should be in play relative to likelihood of talent we could expect in return?

  52. speeds says:

    RexLibris,

    EDM only has 1 3rd.

    They have OTT’s 3rd (Hemsky trade) and ANA has EDM’s 3rd (Fasth trade).

  53. spoiler says:

    Lowetide: Because the 2nd pick and the Evan Campbell pick ruined a perfectly good day. Put Dancs and Mayo or Irving and Watson in place of them and music!

    I dunno. To me we’re arguing about choosing between 14 and 16 on a 6/49 pick…which number is better? I think there was a plan to add goaltending, and some prospects that can be slow-cooked through the college ranks, availing more time and space for the Khairas and Houcks of this world to also develop.

  54. Zangetsu says:

    Not as interesting as last years draft. Nobody really interests me outside of Draisaitl. I can’t believe the oil passed on Kulda.

  55. Lowetide says:

    spoiler: I dunno. To me we’re arguing about choosing between 14 and 16 on a 6/49 pick…which number is better?I think there was a plan to add goaltending, and some prospects that can be slow-cooked through the college ranks, availing more time and space for the Khairas and Houcks of this world to also develop.

    We’ll see. That kid from the BCJHL looks like a distant bell from here.

  56. Zangetsu says:

    Hall RNH Ebs
    Perron Draisaitl Yak
    Those seem like two very solid lines to me. Obviously softer zone starts and qualcomp on the second line. It’s time for the 1line to start being more PvP. 3line would hopefully bridge the gap. 4line needs to be more shutdown. Biggest thing for me this year is getting offence into the bottom six. I’d like to see it shakedown like this.
    1line 85-95 goals
    2line 70-80 goals
    3line 50-60 goals
    4line 25-35 goals
    rough total 230-270 goals

    I think the top two lines could likely be in the range. 4line won’t come close if Hendricks Gordon and Lander find themselves there.

  57. Woodguy says:

    There was the theory being floated out there that the Oilers didn’t like much of the lesser CHL players, so took all US kids going to college in order to not have to make decisions within 2 years to sign medium grade CHLers and keep the 50 thin.

    I don’t know how much stock I put in that.

    If you like a guy, sign him.

    If you don’t, don’t.

  58. Rondo says:

    Ryan Foss would have been a good pick in the 7th rd for Oilers.

  59. sliderule says:

    If you look at second day picks by Kings everyone was over 6-1 withe the exception of Watson.

    Watson at 5-9 and 170 looks like he will be thick.

    If you look back at previous Kings drafts the later round picks are mostly big kids .They target big players with some scoring ability and take the chance they will improve.

    The oilers target older kids with about the same limited scoring in a tier 2 league.

    It’s driving me nuts that they don’t do something about it.

  60. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Lowetide: Fair enough, and I’ll freely admit that goaling isn’t something I like seeing my team devote 33% of their picks to.

    They also hadn’t taken a goalie in the previous two drafts so 2/23 draftees being goalies.

    I’d rather they take a goalie in the 4th and a goalie in the 7th than trading roster players for the Brossoits of the world.

    When Brossoit is starting in OKC two years from now, who’ll be below him in the system? Now we have our potential answers

  61. spoiler says:

    Lowetide: We’ll see. That kid from the BCJHL looks like a distant bell from here.

    Everyone available needs luck at the point he was taken. There will be reasons why some of the favourites here weren’t taken and reasons why the players that were taken, were. We can speculate as to what those stories are, but without knowing the stories, it is pretty difficult to criticize that reasoning.

  62. eidy says:

    When you have only 6 picks in a draft, going off the board seems like the wrong idea. Hearing your proscout had to fight with your gm to take a goalie in the 7th round is concerning.

    Talk about small sample sizes, but changing out 2 of those guys with non-walkabout picks and this becomes a interesting draft. Going off of the board and hoping you are the smartest guy in the room potentially puts your job at risk I suspect. I am not a fan of drafting goalies, seems like there are plenty of them around and projection is exceedingly difficult.

    I was very surprised that they passed on the oil kings so many times when they would have clearly been seen as value picks. Any of Mayo, Irving, or even Kulda in the “Evan Campbell” spot. Shockingly they went to the arena to where Dancs played and scored 1.2 PPG to take the kid that scored 0.8 PPG.

    Interesting also that other than Drai Ice, I don’t think any of them went to the combine

  63. One-Timer says:

    RexLibris:
    So now we start the clock running on the 2015 draft.

    Rumoured to be deep, and with this draft class likely to disappoint, shall we suggest that it would be foolhardy for the Oilers to begin trading away picks too soon?

    As it sits right now the Oilers have a 1st, 2nd, two 3rds, a 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th.

    Given that the organization will likely need to restock the cupboard of junior-level talent next June, how many of those picks should be in play relative to likelihood of talent we could expect in return?

    Keep everything except for the 1st. Trade Gags & the McDavid lotto ticket for something useful this year. Two upsides to this:
    1. Sends a clear message to the players and the fanbase that the Oilers will no longer be tanking for talented teenagers.
    2. Value of the 1st is likely to be higher early on, as the oil come out of the starting blocks as clearly established bottom feeders. Any improvement in the standings will diminish the returns.

  64. Yak2 says:

    LT,

    can you do a NHLE for this man: Oskar Osala

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=8396

  65. bsmart says:

    Why the hell not take Kulda in the 7th round. I hate the late round selections !!!!

  66. Marc says:

    Woodguy:
    There was the theory being floated out there that the Oilers didn’t like much of the lesser CHL players, so took all US kids going to college in order to not have to make decisions within 2 years to sign medium grade CHLers and keep the 50 thin.

    I don’t know how much stock I put in that.

    If you like a guy, sign him.

    If you don’t, don’t.

    And if all the guys you actually like are gone by the time the fifth round pick us on the board?

    Then guys that can develop in college for four years instead of taking up a contract in two seem appealing.

  67. Ryan says:

    One-Timer: Keep everything except for the 1st.Trade Gags & the McDavid lotto ticket for something useful this year.Two upsides to this:
    1. Sends a clear message to the players and the fanbase that the Oilers will no longer be tanking for talented teenagers.
    2. Value of the 1st is likely to be higher early on, as the oil come out of the starting blocks as clearly established bottom feeders.Any improvement in the standings will diminish the returns.

    Dude, you’re smoking the drapes. :)

    No way you trade the McDavid lotto ticket especially with the new draft lottery rules. Never mind the reality that the Oilers are a lock for the bottom 8 next season.

    The Oilers long ago went from tanking for picks to tanking cos they suck. The Nurse draft year, they held onto pending ufa’s and added Smithson.

  68. spoiler says:

    The Eskies with the lead halfway through the 4th. I never would have guessed that pre-game, even with Lulay Lemon out.

  69. Lowetide says:

    Yak2:
    LT,

    can you do a NHLE for this man: Oskar Osala

    http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=8396

    35 points. Any reason?

  70. sliderule says:

    RexLibris:
    So now we start the clock running on the 2015 draft.

    Rumoured to be deep, and with this draft class likely to disappoint, shall we suggest that it would be foolhardy for the Oilers to begin trading away picks too soon?

    As it sits right now the Oilers have a 1st, 2nd, two 3rds, a 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th.

    Given that the organization will likely need to restock the cupboard of junior-level talent next June, how many of those picks should be in play relative to likelihood of talent we could expect in return?

    If the 2014 draft is an indication they might as well trade everything but the first and second round.

  71. One-Timer says:

    Ryan: Dude, you’re smoking the drapes.

    No way you trade the McDavid lotto ticket especially with the new draft lottery rules.Never mind the reality that the Oilers are a lock for the bottom 8 next season.

    The Oilers long ago went from tanking for picks to tanking cos they suck. The Nurse draft year, they held onto pending ufa’s and added Smithson.

    How often have the Pens won the cup with Sid, and how many years into his career? Assuming Connor is as good as Sid, then project that result onto the present-day Oilers, if they’re lucky. Depressed yet?

    More high picks is not the way forward. We have Taylor Hall. He needs to be complemented by good mid-20′s players, not more 18-year-olds, however talented.

    They still need a C (and I don’t mean Leon, who should go back to PA) and a D. Get one through FA, get the other on a long-enough contract via my trade proposal, and let this group mature together. With some actual NHL veterans on this team, it might not be such a long wait for contention.

    You should try the drapes some time. They’re… interesting…!

  72. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    LadiesloveSmid: They also hadn’t taken a goalie in the previous two drafts so 2/23 draftees being goalies.

    I’d rather they take a goalie in the 4th and a goalie in the 7th than trading roster players for the Brossoits of the world.

    When Brossoit is starting in OKC two years from now, who’ll be below him in the system? Now we have our potential answers

    don’t do either.

    trade a 3rd for Fasth. Or Scrivens.

    Or, a 2nd for Bishop (first trade). or whatever the hell the second trade was again.

    Or sign Fasth initially. or Ericsson. Or Raata. fuck….

    Goaltending is not the thing you waste draft picks on. The

  73. Zangetsu says:

    In other news , gernat is shrinking.
    http://whl.ca/roster/show/id/8729
    http://oilers.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8476364

    Why does something as simple as height have to be such a moving target? Is draisaitl 6’1, or what?

  74. Rondo says:

    Zangetsu,

    He is getting old or it is cold water

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DoARSlv-HU

  75. sliderule says:

    Has the NHL released the new draft lottery odds.

  76. OilLeak says:

    Zangetsu:
    In other news , gernat is shrinking.
    http://whl.ca/roster/show/id/8729
    http://oilers.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8476364

    Why does something as simple as height have to be such a moving target? Is draisaitl 6’1, or what?

    Draisaitl is 6′ 1.5″ and 204 lbs according to the scouting combine results

  77. FastOil says:

    spoiler: I dunno. To me we’re arguing about choosing between 14 and 16 on a 6/49 pick…which number is better?I think there was a plan to add goaltending, and some prospects that can be slow-cooked through the college ranks, availing more time and space for the Khairas and Houcks of this world to also develop.

    And this is precisely the Oiler’s problem. These aren’t their children, to be nurtured and trained until successful, they are young men trying to become millionaire pro athletes in the best hockey league in the world. If they aren’t up to it or fortune doesn’t smile, kudos for trying their best and all respect for reaching close to their dream. There is no shame in trying and not succeeding in something like this.

    They deserve fairness and respect, and nothing else. Make the team the best in the league, and don’t stop.

    You draft players to try to take out those you already have – get better, every day.

  78. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Lowetide: Because the 2nd pick and the Evan Campbell pick ruined a perfectly good day. Put Dancs and Mayo or Irving and Watson in place of them and music!

    The 2nd pick?

    The Swede?

    I wasn’t and am not thrilled about it. But, I see him as the Betker pick. A D with a range of skill who we can check back on in 3-4 years to see if he’s still alive.

    Kind of like him. He’s the win of the day for me.

  79. RexLibris says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: The 2nd pick?

    The Swede?

    I wasn’t and am not thrilled about it. But, I see him as the Betker pick. A D with a range of skill who we can check back on in 3-4 years to see if he’s still alive.

    Kind of like him. He’s the win of the day for me.

    To me he seems like Gustafsson from a few years’ back.

    The one they decided not to sign this year.

    Has more of an edge, but less offense. And considering which of those two traits we generally believe to be the more valuable by way of projecting, I’m not terribly encouraged.

  80. Lowetide says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: The 2nd pick?

    The Swede?

    I wasn’t and am not thrilled about it. But, I see him as the Betker pick. A D with a range of skill who we can check back on in 3-4 years to see if he’s still alive.

    Kind of like him. He’s the win of the day for me.

    Now, I actually like that pick, had him at 77. The second goalie is what I clumsily referred to there.

  81. RexLibris says:

    Ken Campbell (THN) suggesting Spezza to the Preds was a possibility, nearly happened today, apparently.

    #ICYMI Jason Spezza to Nashville? Could have happened and could still happen, says senior writer @THNKenCampbell. http://bit.ly/1qWHcRk

    I wonder if the stumbling block hinged on discussions of a player whose last name begins with “W”?

  82. RexLibris says:

    Lowetide: Now, I actually like that pick, had him at 77. The second goalie is what I clumsily referred to there.

    Last year I was frustrated that Tambelllini didn’t move some expiring assets for picks in a deep draft when it seemed the value was high. I think it could have meant the Oilers keeping their pick (Zykov) while still netting Yakimov and company.

    This year, with a paucity of picks, I was frustrated to see something creep back into the draft board that I thought had been expunged with Tambellini, best exemplified by the inclusion of two goalies in the selection.

    I still recall the Tuohimaa and Perhonen selections (3rd and 7th rounds, if I recall correctly) and was not especially thrilled with Perhonen at #62 overall then. Granted, this was not a considered to be a banner year for the draft, but there was value available, and while I have argued that sometimes a team needs to draft the Best Fit Player Available, in the deep rounds I think you just take the best shot you can.

    We may grumble about this draft for the next two seasons the way we did the Moroz and Musil picks, because many of these selections seem to fall in the draft-and-follow category, but I believe there are enough examples now to begin to suggest that MacGregor’s scouting team is not sacrosanct.

    What really surprised me was that with Bob Green on board, and the Oil Kings winning the Memorial Cup, there were crickets from the Oilers about interest in their junior team.

  83. Younger Oil says:

    RexLibris:
    Ken Campbell (THN) suggesting Spezza to the Preds was a possibility, nearly happened today, apparently.

    #ICYMI Jason Spezza to Nashville? Could have happened and could still happen, says senior writer @THNKenCampbell. http://bit.ly/1qWHcRk

    I wonder if the stumbling block hinged on discussions of a player whose last name begins with “W”?

    TSN reported that Spezza refuses to waive his no trade clause to go to NSH

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=455939

  84. theres oil in virginia says:

    RexLibris,

    TSN says that Spezza nixed the deal.

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=455939

  85. Younger Oil says:

    As for Lagesson, I like the player, I like the pick, I don’t like the fact that he’s a left hand shot. We have way too many of those. If a couple of Hunt, Davidson, Musil etc are dealt, then I’d be happier with it.

  86. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Lowetide: Now, I actually like that pick, had him at 77. The second goalie is what I clumsily referred to there.

    ok. that makes a lot more sense.

    If they came out of this draft with Leon, this Swede and any of the following:

    Watson, Chase de Leo, Kulda, Tkachev, Point, Descheneau…

    I would have been ecstatic.

    This draft had late round high skill and we whiffed.

  87. oliveoilers says:

    RexLibris:
    Ken Campbell (THN) suggesting Spezza to the Preds was a possibility, nearly happened today, apparently.

    #ICYMI Jason Spezza to Nashville? Could have happened and could still happen, says senior writer @THNKenCampbell. http://bit.ly/1qWHcRk

    I wonder if the stumbling block hinged on discussions of a player whose last name begins with “W”?

    Spezza turned it down. ‘Cos he’s tough. LOL, how the hell do they turn the players against them in the nation’s capital?

    ‘If he (Heatley) doesn’t want to be here, he has to let us make a move’ – Jason Spezza (July 2, 2009)

    Ass-hat. (Not you, Rex!)

  88. Rondo says:

    I would argue that Oilers did not see much in the draft, they have assets they could have used to make trades. They probably choose positions rather than BPA because they could not differentiate after the 4th rd.

  89. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Woodguy:
    There was the theory being floated out there that the Oilers didn’t like much of the lesser CHL players, so took all US kids going to college in order to not have to make decisions within 2 years to sign medium grade CHLers and keep the 50 thin.

    I don’t know how much stock I put in that.

    If you like a guy, sign him.

    If you don’t, don’t.

    I threw something similar out there on twitter this morning as the picks started coming in… crazy if that was actually there thinking.

    Some of the scribes clearly had the same thought because they asked Stu about it:

    http://video.oilers.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=627165&catid=4

    and while he demurs and says “no, no, we took the next guy on our list”

    he goes on to talk up how they really like not having to decide on contracts for years. all of which is weird.

    It also answers the question… those were the next guys on your list, because you constructed it with a stupid philosophy of success avoidance.

    ——–
    at any rate, I’m going to write something about this tomorrow… any chance you have an actual source on this? or read it written down by one of the EDM peeps?

  90. Yak2 says:

    Lowetide: 35 points. Any reason?

    He’s a good friend of Yakupov’s. Based on that number, he seems like a good bottom-6 forward we should go for. I’ve been giddy over this guy for a number of years. He’s the type of guy we need.

  91. Yak2 says:

    OilLeak: Draisaitl is6′ 1.5″ and 204 lbs according to the scouting combine results

    Draisaitl’s 6’2 215 lbs.

  92. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Rondo:
    I would argue that Oilers did not see much in the draft, they have assets they could have used to make trades.They probably chose positionsrather than BPAbecause they could notdifferentiateafter the 4th rd.

    that doesn’t make any sense.

    let’s say they chose positions?

    Ok… you still have to identify the best D or whathaveyou, right?

    And, if your scouting staff can’t figure out the Watsons from the Coughlins after the 4th round… you fire them. plain and simple.

    Sham Sharron’s potato can figure this shit out.

  93. Numenius says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: Also… I was pretty troubled by Stu saying he had to “fight with” MacT to get the Gs taken.

    \

    Yes, absolutely. The first G I could see, but not the second.

    Stu mentioned that Chabot knows Bouchard, so he may be the one most responsible. This gives me even less confidence with Chabot than I had before. I don’t know much about him but Is there any goalie Chabot’s has successfully developed for the OIl or for anyone?

  94. RexLibris says:

    theres oil in virginia:
    RexLibris,

    TSN says that Spezza nixed the deal.

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=455939

    Missed that, just was scrolling through the THN Winners and Losers at the draft and saw the tweet.

    Btw, winners declared were St. Louis, Calgary and Anaheim. Apparently THN was pleased with the Flames’ selections. Can’t say I share their opinion.

  95. justDOit says:

    Younger Oil: TSN reported that Spezza refuses to waive his no trade clause to go to NSH

    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=455939

    Poor Jason. With the cap number being lower than initially expected, the teams he might want to go to don’t have much (or any) cap room. Then he eliminated most of the other teams he could go to with his NMC. Considering his cap/salary ratio is 7/4, he’s more sought after by cap-floor teams that he doesn’t like either. He is effectively killing his trade value.

    Murray has a tough job with this one, and I’m sure the lack of return for Heatly is still fresh in his mind, making this next trade even more difficult.

    I would still like to see him in the ol Bleu/Orange/Blanc. C’mon Jason – feed Hall and Yak for a year and watch your value rise again!

  96. Rondo says:

    Romulus Apotheosis,

    I can’t believe they went for BPA , given their choices. Stu even said he had to be convinced to pick a second goalie. Really it sounds like they didn’t have a game plan.

  97. RexLibris says:

    oliveoilers:

    Ass-hat.(Not you, Rex!)

    Ha, I’ve been called way worse.

    Agreed. I’ve always held Spezza in high professional regard, I think he is/was a very good player.

    Some of his behaviours and, this is going to sound lame, his body language suggested to me that he wasn’t exactly a glue guy in the room.

    Put it this way, some guys are “core” talent but “complementary” personality.

  98. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Guys…

    I don’t get the Spezza deal here.

    Think it through.

    You sign a contract. Your team wants to trade you because they hate to spend money.

    You realize, hey that would actually work for me too, I’ll never win here… they don’t spend money.

    Then you follow through on your contract and submit teams that you don’t want to be traded to.

    Then your GM, that wants to trade you and knows NASH is on your no-go list, sets up a deal with NASH anyway.

    Then when your agent says, “um… what? that team is on our no-go list… what are you talking about?”, your GM leaks to the press that you are big baby for submitting a list of teams you don’t want to go to, like everyone agreed to when the contract was signed.

    Now, the MSM and all the fans have decided you’re some entitled jerkoff.

    for what? signing a contract and then agreeing to a team’s request to submit the names of teams as per your mutually agreed upon contract so that team can trade you?

    it’s absurd.

  99. Rondo says:

    Romulus Apotheosis,

    Politics in motion.

  100. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Rondo:
    Romulus Apotheosis,

    I can’t believethey went for BPA , given their choices. Stu even said he had to be convinced to pick a second goalie.Really it sounds like they didn’t have a game plan.

    In the link I posted above he suggest he had to “fight with” MacT to take the goalies.

    and, as I suggested above, I think the 3 over-agers bound for college is hardly an accident.

  101. Rondo says:

    Perhaps he was freeing up money and time with the 3 college players.

  102. justDOit says:

    Romulus Apotheosis,

    To be clear, I’m not saying he’s a jerk. I’m saying that Spezza has to realize that his value right now is extremely low. Big teams are probably his most desired destinations, but they’re mostly up against the cap ceiling, so that’s probably not going to happen. Cap-floor teams seem to be on his no-trade list, but they would want a player with a high cap number. And then he doesn’t want to go to a Canadian team (most likely because of the pressure). Something has got to give, and Murray doesn’t want to be it.

  103. RexLibris says:

    Romulus Apotheosis,

    Remember when Murray leaked the Heatley deal components to the media – Smid, Cogliano and Penner.

    Tambellini was furious because it left him in a very bad position with his players while Murray tried to dance his way out of a bind.

    I’ve been cautious of Murray ever since. Not saying he’s a bad GM, just that I don’t think he is necessarily a GM I would want running my team. Of course, Melnyk has been acting out more lately as well, and we know from Ed Snider in Philadelphia that an unstable owner can have a ripple effect on management.

    I agree that Murray shouldn’t be going to the press here, but at the same time I think it is incumbent on the player to take fiscal realities into play.

    I’m not saying he has to do to the Senators what Iginla did to the Flames (hehe, still chuckle over that) but if Murray goes to him and says he can’t trade him to those teams because none of them have the cap space, well, adjust your expectations to fit reality because there ain’t no way its ever going to go the other way around.

  104. jake70 says:

    These NMCs essentially make these guys free agents while under contract, all they have to do is ask for trade. No sympathy here. I posted once where I said contracts should be done where the money and term are agreed upon first. Then and only then do you start talking no trade, no move etc., and that has to cost a player dearly to get one, meaning they reopen the money and take a healthy percentage off.

  105. Rondo says:

    justDOit,

    So your saying we should discard the laws of contracts

  106. eidy says:

    I miss the 2013 draft day. Loved the picks of Slepy and Chase.

    I wonder if their subscription to redline ran out and they are mad at pronman for being behind a paywall

  107. "Steve Smith" says:

    Rondo:
    justDOit,

    So your saying we should discard the laws of contracts

    First, these situations are not governed by the law of contracts generally, because the CBA nixes a whole lot of fairly essential components of that (including the rather foundational freedom to contract).

    (Counter-point: the CBA is itself the result of the freedom to contract, since the parties to that contract have collectively decided to enter into it.)

    (Counter-counter-point: Shut up.)

    But more importantly, criticizing somebody for the way that he exercises options legitimately available to him under a contract is not the same as “discard[ing] the law of contracts”, anymore than (get ready for a callback here) criticizing somebody for offensive, unfunny, and/or idiotic comments is “discarding freedom of speech”.

  108. FastOil says:

    justDOit:
    Romulus Apotheosis,

    To be clear, I’m not saying he’s a jerk. I’m saying that Spezza has to realize that his value right now is extremely low. Big teams are probably his most desired destinations, but they’re mostly up against the cap ceiling, so that’s probably not going to happen. Cap-floor teams seem to be on his no-trade list, but they would want a player with a high cap number. And then he doesn’t want to go to a Canadian team (most likely because of the pressure). Something has got to give, and Murray doesn’t want to be it.

    Deadline deal approaching. I am not sure the market for legacy stars is so hot at the moment, too many disappointments recently. Hard to buy wins in the NHL.

    Hoping it’s the Hawks or Kings or some future strong American opponent and a long term re-up.

  109. Rondo says:

    “Steve Smith”,

    Really,

    There was a meeting of minds when they entered into this agreement. Which is enforceable by the laws specifically contract law. Sure he can ask him to waive NMC . But making Jason look bad in the public eye is not right and other players thinking of going to Ott will think twice

  110. justDOit says:

    Rondo:
    justDOit,

    So your saying we should discard the laws of contracts

    Wow. Hyperbole much? We’re not talking about Haitian labor movements getting shut down by the US state department here. Follow along:

    The NHL cap number for next season is lower than expected.

    Jason has a much higher cap number than salary ($3M).

    Then, he doesn’t want to go to cap-floor teams or Canadian teams. Looks like he might have to play for the team he doesn’t want to play for.

  111. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    My bottom line: I don’t like being manipulated by by a bunch of rich dudes into some stupid “character” narrative.

    Murray has a shitty owner.

    Spezza is exercising the terms of his contract.

    Murray tried to force Spezza beyond those terms, first by going around them and then by going public against him.

    This has nothing to do with character.

  112. oliveoilers says:

    One way to look at Spezza: Imagine he is a very highly paid executive, but wants out for whatever reason. Now, in the NHL, he can’t quit and join another company. Oh, no, no, two painful lockouts to the detriment of the fans has ensured this. He demands to be ‘let go’ and says “Oh, by the way, would you be so good as to arrange a transfer to our most successful competitor? Same or better money, naturally.” What other recourse does Murray have? Doesn’t anybody remember ‘Keep it in your pants’ Pronger?

  113. oliveoilers says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    My bottom line: I don’t like being manipulated by by a bunch of rich dudes into some stupid “character” narrative.

    Murray has a shitty owner.

    Spezza is exercising the terms of his contract.

    Murray tried to force Spezza beyond those terms, first by going around them and then by going public against him.

    This has nothing to do with character.

    Then, if his character is sound, he’ll have no problem honouring his contract to the best of his abilities then.

  114. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    oliveoilers: Then, if his character is sound, he’ll have no problem honouring his contract to the best of his abilities then.

    except for the fact that the Sens don’t want to because they don’t want to pay him or renew him and therefore want to maximize return now.

    How are you missing this part?

    Of the two parties, I imagine Spezza is much more willing to honor the contract and play out the year in OTT.

  115. "Steve Smith" says:

    Rondo: But making Jason look bad in the public eyeis not right…

    …nor is it in any way precluded by the law of contracts. That is why your suggestion that JustDoIt’s position amounted to “discard[ing] the law of contracts” was absurd.

  116. oliveoilers says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: except for the fact that the Sens don’t want to because they don’t want to pay him or renew him and therefore want to maximize return now.

    How are you missing this part?

    Of the two parties, I imagine Spezza is much more willing to honor the contract and play out the year in OTT.

    Err, except that HE asked for the trade.

    How are you missing THIS part?

    The only thing you have right is the Sens wanting to maximise their return. Which now they can’t.

  117. Woodguy says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: I threw something similar out there on twitter this morning as the picks started coming in… crazy if that was actually there thinking.

    Some of the scribes clearly had the same thought because they asked Stu about it:

    http://video.oilers.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=627165&catid=4

    and while he demurs and says “no, no, we took the next guy on our list”

    he goes on to talk up how they really like not having to decide on contracts for years. all of which is weird.

    It also answers the question… those were the next guys on your list, because you constructed it with a stupid philosophy of success avoidance.

    ——–
    at any rate, I’m going to write something about this tomorrow… any chance you have an actual source on this? or read it written down by one of the EDM peeps?

    No source.

    Been glancing at twitter occasionally today and not sure who had put it out there.

    Given that a MSMer asked, it was a reasonable angle.

  118. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    oliveoilers: Err, except that HE asked for the trade.

    How are you missing THIS part?

    man… Murray has a real nice friend here.

    look. When your GM dangles you out there for a while and your owner pays the floor bill thus never giving you a chance to win… then you finally, say… fuck it, sure trade me then…

    Yea… he’s the guy that asked for the trade. he’s the guy causing trouble for poor Ottawa. If only that Spezza wouldn’t be such a dink things would be great over there.

    Seriously… follow the story and read all the pages. Not the ones Murray bookmarks for you.

    http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/04/14/ottawa-senators-spezza-not-naive-to-trade-talk

    http://nesn.com/2014/06/jason-spezza-asks-for-trade-from-ottawa-senators-4-5-nhl-teams-interested/

  119. Moose says:

    Romulus Apotheosis,

    That article is concerning on a number of levels because it sounds like the Penguins are going to be after a lot of the same targets as the Oilers. They need to round out their bottom 6 as we do.

    We can probably offer some of those guys a bit more money, but the lure of playing on a contender with Crosby and Malkin is gonna hold a lot of sway.

  120. Big Dan says:

    Let’s say MacT strikes out on signing Jokinen or Kulemin (I’d take less to play with Crosby/Malkin if I were them too). And Winnik/Goc choose elsewhere too… I’m not interested in David freaking Moss.

    Another option for that third line is Chris Kelly, who can play C and W. He has 2 years left at $3M, not too bad. Boston is in cap hell thanks to Iginla scoring 30 and Savard still on the books. We may be able to flip a 4th round pick or something for him.

    I am surprised he has not been mentioned much here. He is big and fast.

  121. russ99 says:

    This is a bit ridiculous.

    People are criticizing 5th, 6th and 7th round picks because we passed on specific Oil Kings like pretty much everyone else in the league?

    Boy. It sure would be great if the club had so few problems where something like this was a big deal…

  122. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    russ99:
    This is a bit ridiculous.

    People are criticizing 5th, 6th and 7th round picks because we passed on specific Oil Kings like pretty much everyone else in the league?

    Boy. It sure would be great if the club had so few problems where something like this was a big deal…

    It’s like you didn’t bother reading any of the criticisms at all and authority and the status quo are your favorite things.

  123. FastOil says:

    Why trade a decent player with a high cap hit and low salary on a budget team? The relationship is broken, token attempt, get more value hopefully later. There are only a few select players that deserve that much clout based on constant top level production and dominance. Spezza is not one.

  124. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    FastOil:
    Why trade a decent player with a high cap hit and low salary on a budget team? The relationship is broken, token attempt, get more value hopefully later. There are only a few select players that deserve that much clout based on constant top level production and dominance. Spezza is not one.

    because they wanted to. And now he wants to. So, they’ll see if they can find a deal. If they can’t they’ll have to just carry on. And, they probably will.

    This happens all the time. It’s not really interesting. The only interesting parts are watching people buy into Murray’s narratives.

    ps. does every player with clauses not deserve them?

  125. Lowetide says:

    russ99:
    This is a bit ridiculous.

    People are criticizing 5th, 6th and 7th round picks because we passed on specific Oil Kings like pretty much everyone else in the league?

    Boy. It sure would be great if the club had so few problems where something like this was a big deal…

    We went into the day knowing this was going to be a crapshoot. And that’s what we got.

  126. Gerta Rauss says:

    Big Dan: Another option for that third line is Chris Kelly, who can play C and W. He has 2 years left at $3M, not too bad. Boston is in cap hell thanks to Iginla scoring 30 and Savard still on the books. We may be able to flip a 4th round pick or something for him.

    I might be willing to help out Chiarelli by taking both Kelly and Boychuk off his hands

  127. PerryK says:

    FPB94:
    Just a comparison of what’s been produced beyond the 1st round for the last 10 years, all final four teams and the Oilers.

    Oilers: Reddox, Peckham, Omark, Hartikainen, Lander (1 NHL job, 1 still with team)

    Canadiens: Emelin, Grabovski, Streit, Latendresse, D’Agostini, Kostitsyn, White, Weber, Subban, Gallagher, (8 NHL jobs, 1 Norris, 1 KHL job, 4 still with team)

    KIngs: Quick, Simmonds, Martinez, King, Voynov, Loktionov, Clifford, Toffoli (8 NHL jobs, 1 Vezina, 5 still with team)

    Rangers: Dubinsky, Callahan, Pyatt, Anisimov, Hagelin, Weise, Stepan, Horak, (8 NHL jobs, 1 traded for all-star, 2 sitll with team) (But they traded these guys for useful pieces)

    Blackhawks: Bickell, Bolland, Brouwer, Hjallmarson, Kruger, Shaw, Saad, Smith (8 NHL jobs, 5 still with team).

    Oilers’ record is appallingly bad.

    Good teams fuel partly on their late round picks.

    Good summary FPB!

  128. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: don’t do either.

    trade a 3rd for Fasth. Or Scrivens.

    Or, a 2nd for Bishop (first trade). or whatever the hell the second trade was again.

    Or sign Fasth initially. or Ericsson. Or Raata. fuck….

    Goaltending is not the thing you waste draft picks on. The

    You get average goaltending through those small trades. Bishop turning out how he did isn’t common. You’ve got to hit a home run in the draft to find a good starting goalie. People won’t give them away/they won’t sign for little in Edmonton.

  129. raventalon40 says:

    RexLibris: To me he seems like Gustafsson from a few years’ back.

    The one they decided not to sign this year.

    Has more of an edge, but less offense. And considering which of those two traits we generally believe to be the more valuable by way of projecting, I’m not terribly encouraged.

    “Gustafsson has signed a two-year contract with Frolunda of the Swedish Hockey League, beginning in 2013-14.”

    Gustafsson pretty much decided to stay in Sweden.

  130. nycoil says:

    Been traveling all day to Santa Fe so just catching up on day 2.

    -Leafs face palm

    -Kings did alright mid and late rounds again

    -Barbashev to Blues hurts. A couple of weeks back a reporter gave MacT kudos on the Perron trade and I remember his response was, “Well, that pick ended up being a lot higher than we wanted” or something along those lines. Ouch.

    -I don’t know this Coughlin fellow or the goalies, but aren’t goalies such a crapshoot that you don’t waste decent picks on them? Haven’t they learned from Tuohimaa, Roy, Bunz, etc.? Just trade a 3rd rounder to get Scrivens or a 4th to get Halak, like…average puck stoppers are cheap as chips. Unless you have a can’t miss guy like Carey Price or something (and even he had ups and downs to start), don’t do it!!! Hurts even more if there are decent players still around and it seems like there were.

    -Rom’s bit about Stu saying he had to fight MacT to take the goalies is disturbing to say the least. Is it possible that the prior drafts had more of Stu’s fingerprints on them than Tambellini’s? Tambellini is so passive he might have just deferred to Stu outside the #1 overalls. I’m giving Stu credit for Marincin and Hartikainen and Eberle, but the rest of his grade is incomplete. I’ve taken both the M and the B away from his moniker to be fair to him for now.

    - The draft went Eine: Ekblad, Zwei: Reinhart, Drai

    Good night

  131. mumbai max says:

    V interesting thread around Spezza.

    As we know in pro sports by now, everyone is the villain in these stories.

    I would like to see a simple change in the CBA. If you officially ask for a trade, then you void your NMC. You are in fact asking for movement, and therefore forfeit your rights to pick where.

    Seems reasonable.

  132. "Steve Smith" says:

    mumbai max: I would like to see a simple change in the CBA. If you officially ask for a trade, then you void your NMC.

    And if you officially declare war, you are in violation of international law.

    (The less obvious problem with your suggestion is that there is absolutely no incentive for the NHLPA to agree to it. A CBA is not some kind of foundational governance document imposed by some representative body charged with looking out for the public interest; it is the product of a negotiation in which two parties are concerned only with their own self-interests. Accordingly, modifications to the CBA are not made, as you propose, on the basis of what “seems reasonable”, but rather on the basis of what furthers both sides’ self-interests.)

  133. raventalon40 says:

    mumbai max:
    V interesting thread around Spezza.

    As we know in pro sports by now, everyone is the villain in these stories.

    I would like to see a simple change in the CBA. If you officially ask for a trade, then you void your NMC.You are in fact asking for movement, and therefore forfeit your rights to pick where.

    Seems reasonable.

    Only makes sense if there is an official story of whether the player wants to be traded or the team just wants to trade the player. In Spezza’s case, I agree. If it’s Marleau, then all the power to the contract.

  134. mumbai max says:

    "Steve Smith": And if you officially declare war, you are in violation of international law.

    (The less obvious problem with your suggestion is that there is absolutely no incentive for the NHLPA to agree to it.A CBA is not some kind of foundational governance document imposed by some representative body charged with looking out for the public interest; it is the product of a negotiation in which two parties are concerned only with their own self-interests.Accordingly, modifications to the CBA are not made, as you propose, on the basis of what “seems reasonable”, but rather on the basis of what furthers both sides’ self-interests.)

    There are many elements of the CBA that are not player friendly. These were achieved by negotiation. I am proposing that the NHL negotiates this as a new clause in the next CBA. Certainly as possible as many of the provisions that already exist.

  135. mumbai max says:

    raventalon40: Only makes sense if there is an official story of whether the player wants to be traded or the team just wants to trade the player. In Spezza’s case, I agree. If it’s Marleau, then all the power to the contract.

    I agree. There would have to be a formal process where players officially ask to be traded for this to work.

  136. "Steve Smith" says:

    mumbai max,

    Sure, but the owners would have to give something up. And given the utter toothlessness of such a provision (hence my declaration of war analogy), I can’t see why they‘d do that.

  137. mumbai max says:

    “Steve Smith”:
    mumbai max,

    Sure, but the owners would have to give something up.And given the utter toothlessness of such a provision (hence my declaration of war analogy), I can’t see why they‘d do that.

    It would not have to be toothless. An official provision would exist where the player would declare their desire to be traded and waive their NMC. Basta.

    As for the owners, I suspect the owners of Vancouver and Ottawa would be willing to give something up for the adoption of this clause.

  138. "Steve Smith" says:

    mumbai max: It would not have to be toothless. An official provision would exist where the player would declare their desire to be traded and waive their NMC.

    And no player would ever, ever avail himself of the provision, because he would gain nothing, and would give something up (the NMC).

  139. mumbai max says:

    "Steve Smith": And no player would ever, ever avail himself of the provision, because he would gain nothing, and would give something up (the NMC).

    Thus solving the problem. Et voila!

  140. rickithebear says:

    Just so we are clear.:
    NHL Players 5:
    1st: Draisatl
    2nd + MP: Perron
    3rd: Scrivens
    5th+ 2015 3rd: Fasth
    5th Nikitin

    4th Laggesson 8th ranked Euro d. 8th euro D drafted at # 91
    8th NA was at #55 .46 PPG junior .43 WJC 18; .50PPG Hilinka
    of the Dmen drafted before him
    Only 2 Dmen were better with Size junior; WJC; Hlinka;
    Physical play.
    Ekblad and Sanheim.

    NCAA goalies U20 yr last year.
    Jon Gilies 2.16 GAA .931 Save%
    Nagelvoort 2.20 GAA .929 Save%
    Demko 2.24 GAAA .919

    I would say we got the best NA goalie in the draft.
    Maybe the best overall.

    Jesus!
    SMB!

  141. Rocknrolla says:

    Take a look at this behind the scenes video.

    http://video.oilers.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=627165&catid=4

    2 interesting things:

    Nice to see Messier at the conference table…I wonder if his role may end up becoming more of a player personnel guy who can help motivate and lead the young prospects.

    At the end when Drai is speaking German to his father, they translation is there. He says MacT said he can be in the lineup this year if he works hard.

  142. Henry says:

    PerryK: Good summary FPB!

    I dont know about that. The Oilers have been sub par but fpb left out marincin petry brodziak stortini.

  143. Marcus Oilerius says:

    Lowetide:
    No. 209

    http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160320

    No. 210

    http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=160296

    That’s how you reward your scouts.

    Who says it’s the GM not rewarding his scouts? Maybe it’s the scouts being bad at their jobs?

    Either way, this org is a mess.

    Now for something completely different. http://i.imgur.com/ReH5yJh.gif

  144. book¡je says:

    Why is requesting a trade a bad thing? It’s no different than a team deciding to trade a player whe doesn’t want to be traded. The NTC is a part of the agreed upon contract that passes power from the team to the player. Teams accept them because it saves them money. Nobody forces a GM to accept a NTC. Thus when a player actually makes use of their NTC to control their destiny, I don’t have a problem with it because the GM gave the player that power.

  145. book¡je says:

    mumbai max: I agree. There would have to be a formal process where players officially ask to be traded for this to work.

    Why would a player not just say how much it sucks to play for the team publicly and say how other players are lucky to be on another team. That’s not a trade request, but it accomplishes the same thing.

  146. godot10 says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    My bottom line: I don’t like being manipulated by by a bunch of rich dudes into some stupid “character” narrative.

    Murray has a shitty owner.

    Spezza is exercising the terms of his contract.

    Murray tried to force Spezza beyond those terms, first by going around them and then by going public against him.

    This has nothing to do with character.

    No. Spezza is asking to be excused from fulfilling his contract, his front-loaded contract, while asking the Senators to abide by the terms of the contract. The Senators have effectively already paid for much of the last season, and Spezza wants to be excused from delivering the services he has already been partly paid for.

    Spezza has a contract that he doesn’t want to fulfill. Murray is entirely within his rights to let the Ottawa fans know that.

  147. frjohnk says:

    rickithebear:
    Just so we are clear.:
    NHL Players 5:
    1st: Draisatl
    2nd + MP: Perron
    3rd: Scrivens
    5th+ 2015 3rd: Fasth
    5th Nikitin

    4th Laggesson 8th ranked Euro d. 8th euro D drafted at # 91
    8th NA was at #55 .46 PPG junior .43 WJC 18; .50PPG Hilinka
    of the Dmen drafted before him
    Only 2 Dmen were better with Size junior; WJC; Hlinka;
    Physical play.
    Ekblad and Sanheim.

    NCAA goalies U20 yr last year.
    Jon Gilies 2.16 GAA.931 Save%
    Nagelvoort 2.20 GAA.929 Save%
    Demko2.24 GAAA.919

    I would say we got the best NA goalie in the draft.
    Maybe the best overall.

    Jesus!
    SMB!

    THIS. ALL. DAY.

    The end goal of a draft pick is to turn the pick into a NHL player. Majority of picks do not even get a cup of coffee ( don’t believe me, see oilers 1990 draft year). We are not even out of the gate and this draft is smoking. Yes, there are a couple of head scratchers but show me a draft that there isn’t.

    The 2013 draft was great for restocking the cupboards
    The 2014 draft was great for getting ready assets so this team into position to climb out of the basement

    If Tambo could have done half as good……

  148. spoiler says:

    With word that the Caps are balking at paying Grabo the $5Mish he wants, he has to become target #1 for the Oilers July 1. Don’t know why the Caps wouldn’t find value there unless they have an internal budget, but too bad so sad for them. Use Grabo to leverage getting Kulemin. Get in there and pitch boys.

    Let’s see some MacTivity!

  149. theres oil in virginia says:

    spoiler,

    I’m a little worried that they’re going to pursue Brad Richards. Heard anything regarding his destination?

  150. nycoil says:

    Drafting goalies is still like playing dice. Dubnyk was the best one the Oilers have drafted in the last decade. Sv pct in the NCAA tells us something, but not the whole picture (quality of shots, team in front of him). We’ll see. I hope one of them pans out this time.

  151. nycoil says:

    theres oil in virginia,

    Richards doesn’t want to play in the northwest part of the country (I think Dallas as far west as he will go) so I wouldn’t worry too much. Family stuff and all.

  152. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    It’s amazing how wrong people can make you care about something that is entirely trivial and matter of course.

    I get it. Hockey is still, to a large degree, a battle of contesting narratives about character. I think that is fruitless way to look at most situations, this one included.

    But, let’s get the facts out once more because many of you seem very confused.

    The story doesn’t start when “Spezza asks for trade.”

    You are just buying Murray’s crap there.

    The story starts when Murray starts trying to trade Spezza, who he gave clauses to, during the season, because the team decided for whatever reason they weren’t going to extend his contract when it expires next year.

    THAT’S when it starts. Murray got the ball rolling.

    Now, if your team is trying to trade you. Doesn’t want you going forward. And in general refuses to build a team that can win because it has a crazy owner…

    Hey, maybe somewhere in there you say… Ok, trade me. Might as well get this over with sooner rather than later.

    That’s what asking for a trade looked like.

    The rest is just leaks from Murray (he won’t play for a Canadian team because he can’t take it; he won’t accept a trade to a team he said no to and I knew about that previously).

  153. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    LadiesloveSmid: You get average goaltending through those small trades. Bishop turning out how he did isn’t common.You’ve got to hit a home run in the draft to find a good starting goalie. People won’t give them away/they won’t sign for little in Edmonton.

    This is entirely wrong.

    Goalies as we know are voodoo.

    But, there is a great corrective here… the market is always a buyers market on goalies. always.

    There’s no point draft and developing goalies. Maybe one every second year. maybe.

  154. Caramel Obvious says:

    godot10: No. Spezza is asking to be excused from fulfilling his contract, his front-loaded contract, while asking the Senators to abide by the terms of the contract.The Senators have effectively already paid for much of the last season, and Spezza wants to be excused from delivering the services he has already been partly paid for.

    Spezza has a contract that he doesn’t want to fulfill.Murray is entirely within his rights to let the Ottawa fans know that.

    I’m glad to see you’ve gone back to not making any sense.

  155. Deadman Waiting says:

    Romulus Apotheosis:
    it’s absurd

    But it’s not absurd, in the bigger picture. There’s a consistent bias among fans when a deal returns less than the fans initially hoped (don’t they always?) to suppose that their idiot GM (“dumb people get high importance jobs”) left a gem on the table. And then when the GM really does have an annus horribilus (through some combination of bad luck and bad management) it’s grounds for immediate beheading because the GM has an “established” track record of bad decisions (established by some magic inference even though the availability lists were never revealed).

    It’s pretty easy for a player to list eight forbidden teams and wipe out 95% of the short term demand for his services. How many teams typically A) need an upgrade at that position, B) are biased toward experience over potential in their competitive cycle, and C) have a cash/cap situation where they can afford to make the move?

    Furthermore, there’s an aggregate bully effect, where the teams that get picked on (the ones most often excluded) are having the hardest time attracting the players they need—having also the most cap room to expend when such a player becomes available—becoming ever less desirable because pariah.

    While I’ve never liked the secrecy of the player’s NMC lists, one can’t just reveal the lists wholesale because the preferences expressed are immaterial until an actual deal is possible.

    However, once a GM makes a formal deal (filed at head office) and the player rejects the trade, the preference is most definitely material and should be made public, because the player really did exercise that power. Whether the fans like it or not is the player’s problem to consider in how he comports himself (encouraging the Heatleys of the world to try a little harder to express gratitude to their present employers).

    It’s not so easy for GMs to put these deals together to make it practical to run up a public black ball tally, even one as steamy between the ears as Lowe and Burke sharing a sauna with one dry towel remaining.

    I won’t say any more off the cuff. What I would really do if it were my market to invent from scratch (with a location pricing term) resembles Black–Scholes in that it permits options to be explicitly valued.

  156. Eulers says:

    LT, that’s a pretty damning indictment of Oilers drafting in 20 freaking 14. Why can’t we have nice things?

  157. spoiler says:

    The Spezza thing started when Spezza agreed to waive his NMC if the club felt they weren’t going to re-sign him and would prefer to trade him to get some value.

    I don’t know how much more mutual a situation can be.

    Why either Spezza or Murray are to blame here is beyond me, but hey this is the blog that argues over 7th round selections, so I suppose it isn’t surprising.

  158. oliveoilers says:

    Deadman Waiting: But it’s not absurd, in the bigger picture.There’s a consistent bias among fans when a deal returns less than the fans initially hoped (don’t they always?) to suppose that their idiot GM (“dumb people get high importance jobs”) left a gem on the table.And then when the GM really does have an annus horribilus (through some combination of bad luck and bad management) it’s grounds for immediate beheading because the GM has an “established” track record of bad decisions (established by some magic inference even though the availability lists were never revealed).

    It’s pretty easy for a player to list eight forbidden teams and wipe out 95% of the short term demand for his services.How many teams typically A) need an upgrade at that position, B) are biased toward experience over potential in their competitive cycle, and C) have a cash/cap situation where they can afford to make the move?

    Furthermore, there’s an aggregate bully effect, where the teams that get picked on (the ones most often excluded) are having the hardest time attracting the players they need—having also the most cap room to expend when such a player becomes available—becoming ever less desirable because pariah.

    While I’ve never liked the secrecy of the player’s NMC lists, one can’t just reveal the lists wholesale because the preferences expressed are immaterial until an actual deal is possible.

    However, once a GM makes a formal deal (filed at head office) and the player rejects the trade, the preference is most definitely material and should be made public, because the player really did exercise that power.Whether the fans like it or not is the player’s problem to consider in how he comports himself (encouraging the Heatleys of the world to try a little harder to express gratitude to their present employers).

    It’s not so easy for GMs to put these deals together to make it practical to run up a public black ball tally, even one as steamy between the ears as Lowe and Burke sharing a sauna with one dry towel remaining.

    I won’t say any more off the cuff.What I would really do if it were my market to invent from scratch (with a location pricing term) resembles Black–Scholes in that it permits options to be explicitly valued.

    Perfect. Don’t you ever change.

  159. gcw_rocks says:

    They passed on Audette to draft a twenty year old goalie. No way that’s drafting best player available.

  160. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    Deadman Waiting: But it’s not absurd, in the bigger picture. There’s a consistent bias among fans when a deal returns less than the fans initially hoped (don’t they always?) to suppose that their idiot GM (“dumb people get high importance jobs”) left a gem on the table.

    I entirely get why a GM would leak to the press that Spezza doesn’t like the heat in Canada, or that he turned down a reasonable offer that would be good for OTT…

    I don’t understand why any of us, esp. those of us not committed to the success of the on-ice product in OTT, should fall so naively for such a cynical ploy.

    Deadman Waiting: However, once a GM makes a formal deal (filed at head office) and the player rejects the trade, the preference is most definitely material and should be made public, because the player really did exercise that power. Whether the fans like it or not is the player’s problem to consider in how he comports himself (encouraging the Heatleys of the world to try a little harder to express gratitude to their present employers).

    The GM made a deal knowing full well it went against the terms of the contract he had previously agreed upon.

    ——-

    Let’s say we share a car. You have it Mon, tues, thurs and Sat. I have it wed, fri and Sun. We agree to that before hand.

    Then you tell your neighbor, “hey, sure we can drive up to the lake on Sunday, I’ve got a car”

    When I’m packing the kids into to car to head off to Sunday morning church, you show up with your buddy: “hey man, I need the car today, going fishing”

    When I’m like… “what? It’s my day, I need the car!” … you act all aggrieved and make a big scene on the lawn like a victim, “my neighbor was really looking forward to that fishing trip. you’ve ruined everything!!”

    Everyone blaming Spezza here is starring at the idiot on the lawn complaining and taking his side.

  161. oliveoilers says:

    Romulus Apotheosis: I entirely get why a GM would leak to the press that Spezza doesn’t like the heat in Canada, or that he turned down a reasonable offer that would be good for OTT…

    I don’t understand why any of us, esp. those of us not committed to the success of the on-ice product in OTT, should fall so naively for such a cynical ploy.

    The GM made a deal knowing full well it went against the terms of the contract he had previously agreed upon.

    ——-

    Let’s say we share a car. You have it Mon, tues, thurs and Sat. I have it wed, fri and Sun. We agree to that before hand.

    Then you tell your neighbor, “hey, sure we can drive up to the lake on Sunday, I’ve got a car”

    When I’m packing the kids into to car to head off to Sunday morning church, you show up with your buddy: “hey man, I need the car today, going fishing”

    When I’m like… “what? It’s my day, I need the car!” … you act all aggrieved and make a big scene on the lawn like a victim, “my neighbor was really looking forward to that fishing trip. you’ve ruined everything!!”

    Everyone blaming Spezza here is starring at the idiot on the lawn complaining and taking his side.

    Now who’s buying in to narratives?

  162. Romulus Apotheosis says:

    oliveoilers: Now who’s buying in to narratives?

    what narrative?

    It’s an analogy. It also has the benefit of reality subtending its logic.

    Seriously, it’s a normal, every-day NHL transaction. We watch this all the time. No one here is the bad guy.

    That’s the point.

    But, if you want to sympathize with a GM for his tricky situation go ahead. I won’t join you in pointlessly demonizing a player.

  163. Lloyd B. says:

    Rondo,

    It goes both ways. Players seem to have it both ways now. Nope, If player asks out…you go where we can get best value. EWe want you out you can choose.

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