REINHART TO THE SHOW
Brandon Davidson’s untimely injury robbed the Edmonton Oilers of one of their top defensemen. Despite being a rookie, Davidson has been a tremendous help to coach Todd McLellan in an area of extreme weakness. The rookie’s progress has to put him front and center when we discuss the 2016-17 blue, which brings us to Griffin Reinhart.
Griffin Reinhart occupies a strange place among Oilers fans and I hope he is blissfully unaware. When we talk about trades, I think most of us are dealing with team-building and organizational thoughts. There are times though, and they happen more often than they should, when people get personal about these things. So, I am hopeful we can have a conversation that is not personal. Cool?
MY TRADE DAY THOUGHTS
On the morning after the deal, I wrote the following on Peter Chiarelli, Griffin Reinhart and the Oilers oranization:
In terms of value, Peter Chiarelli gave up too much. Reinhart—if everything works out—projects as a second-pairing guy and the price paid was dear, too dear. Oilers fans will grind themselves into a fine white powder on this issue, I choose not to do it. Two things are absolutely true:
- Griffin Reinhart is a substantial prospect who can fill a role inside Edmonton’s top 6D when he matures, perhaps as early as this season.
- Edmonton gave up two picks in a deep draft for a prospect who—while more advanced than the draft picks—is unlikely to play a similar kind of feature role upon arrival.
The Oilers paid dearly but were glad to do it in order to secure a prospect they knew very well. There’s no real way to argue it was a good deal in terms of value but the new regime believes Reinhart is worth the risk. Lose the battle, win the war. The club didn’t like the No. 4 defenseman on their list as much as Reinhart, so they pulled the trigger. They liked the tools blue, but felt a mean streak was more valuable.
- Elliotte Friedman: “The one thing I would bet, more than anything else, is that they didn’t want to call up Reinhart. That they wanted him to be in the American Hockey League and playing those games, big minutes, every night. But all of the sudden you’re looking at this situation where you lose another guy. ‘What are we going to do?’ Source
I don’t know if Reinhart will play tomorrow night, suspect there is a chance he is here for insurance. Todd McLellan has shown some hesitancy to put newcomers into the lineup without practice. We will see.
I also don’t think he will be here long. Reinhart may be up toward the deadline, when Fayne or Schultz or Gryba are sent away. Right now, the perfect fit partner for Reinhart (Brandon Davidson) is injured and Reinhart is not an ideal partner for Mark Fayne or Eric Gryba.
IF I WERE KING
They don’t ask me, but if I were king Griffin Reinhart would stay in the minors until he is ready. I will go you one more and suggest Darnell Nurse might be wise to join him in Bakersfield. Here are the AHL games at 20 for recent Oilers blue prospects:
- Oscar Klefbom 48 (and then NHL-ready)
- Martin Marincin 69 (and not NHL-ready)
- David Musil 61 (and not NHL-ready)
- Griffin Reinhart 59 (and not NHL-ready)
- Darnell Nurse 6 (strong early, appears to be faltering, may not be NHL-ready)
Say what you want about Craig MacTavish, but he sent Oscar Klefbom down and the young Swede played most of the season there as a rookie (NA) pro. Darnell Nurse played six games in the AHL, I think it is completely reasonable to suggest he might benefit from more time in the minors (he looked to have some tough moments last night and the numbers match). Brandon Davidson didn’t play at 20 in the AHL, he was in junior. At 21, he played 11 in the ECHL and 26 in the AHL, on his way to a long period in the minors.
It is a marathon, not a sprint. Peter Chiarelli has it right: Let the bloggers and fans scream at the top of their lungs—doesn’t matter. The die is cast, the trade is gone, those who are going to hate Griffin Reinhart for reasons beyond hockey will remain that way no matter.
Make Griffin Reinhart the best Griffin Reinhart he can be, and that means more sorties in the AHL until he is NHL-ready. The only pressure should come from him and the coaches who support and guide him. Get it right, Mr. Chiarelli. You owe it to the fans to develop the best possible Griffin Reinhart.
What pick/picks would you get for Reinhart in the 2016 Draft ?
There are a lot of high scoring Dmen in junior that go on to play effectively in the NHL because they can skate, make smart decisions, and move the puck effectively because they have the talent and mind to adapt.
There are few defensive Dmen in junior that go on to play effectively in the NHL because they either struggle with one or more of their skating, decision making and making solid tape to tape passes out of their end.
If the Oilers plan on sticking with Reinhart, then they better plan on letting him iron out all the wrinkles and improve his skating, decision making and crisp passes in the AHL.
I actually preferred Reinharts original stint to nurse, because he was, imo, clearly a more cerebral player than nurse. Nurse wins the battles down low, and is more appealing to the eye. I think Reinhart actually completes more passes than Darnell does.
None of this matters though, as I’ve felt they both should be in the minors, or maybe playing bottom pairing minutes. Not being force fed top line minutes.
Klefbom played another 10 in OKC after his NHL stint
Peter Chiarelli owes us the best possible team
That includes the best possible: Nurse, McDavid, Draisaitl, Reinhart, Slepyshev and everybody in between.
I would have loved to see musil up here before Reinhart. His speed didn’t seem nearly as much of a problem to my eye when he was playing up here last year. By reports, he’s also been the best dman arguably this year in the farm.
Is he waiver eligible next year? Can we send him down without fear of what would happen? If not then I would love to have an extended look, as I’m sure he fits Chias plan of “big with battle”.
Reinhart is likely here for one game, and then back down to Bakersfield for the extended All-Star break.
Then he will be back if Davidson isn’t back February 2nd.
I hope they go
Reinhart, Schultz
Nurse, Gryba
against Nashville.
Reinhart is in the Coburn, Alzner, Gudbranson line of defensive D drafted high. All took their sweet time to the consternation of ADD fan bases.
Nurse has the advantage that we can see his potential when he is making rookie mistakes. With defensive D prospects, the eventual goal is invisibility, so when they make rookie mistakes, they appear horrible. They is no tantalizing multi-dimensional potential to distract us from the rookie mistakes.
I think Reinhart is here to stay as long as he performs well for McLellan. I tire of all the negative hype surrounding this young man. It’s not his fault what Chiarelli gave up for him. I do believe young D-men should spend time in the minors rather than jump into the NHL. Nurse would have benefited from more time in the AHL as well. Griff will be a solid second pairing D-man next year.
Around here we call that Ass-Burners syndrome.
I’ve been incommunicado today.
Has anyone identified the nature of the injury to McDavidson?
Last night I was assuming that imperfectly healed ribs were re-injured.
Basted, if you will.
Much as I enjoy watching almost every game – I recognize injuries have derailed the depth train. The players are barely hanging on. The long-term picture becomes paramount.
It will not cost us playoff games or a chance of making the playoffs if we send Nurse to the minors with tons of ice time to get his offense back on track. And it would not hurt the team to have Reinhart play with the Oilers – so we can see how he plays against NHL players.
The trade deadline is about six weeks away. Chiarelli needs to be able to make informed decisions prior to late February plus prior to the draft.
I’m all for leaving Reinhart in the AHL until he’s ready. Nurse for that matter too. I think 5-10 games as an injury replacement can be enlightening fir the young guys but if you need half a season replaced a GM should be looking to the trade market/waiver wire instead.
I thought the Reinhart trade looked alright in summer. I soured on him quickly after watching him play. He clearly wasn’t any good. Hopefully he trains like a demon in the offseason and has a Draisaitl like leap in development or he gets traded.
It doesn’t matter either way as long as the Oilers D–Core shows major improvement next year. There aren’t any untouchables there. Any and all of the Oilers blue should be on the block to help bring in some upgrades.
I love Griffen as a player-type. He will be one of those D like Petry. Solid puck mover at even strength and he will get tons of “3rd assists” from breaking the opposition cycle and making crisp outlet passes.
He will not get a ton of crooked numbers on the score sheet. His CorsiRel should shine once he finds the range though.
I saw him in more good games than bad games at the beggining of the year. He was more a victim of circumstance, matched with partners that didn’t compliment his style. He needs a puck mover with him to be effective, similar to Fayne.
You keep saying that there’s no real way to argue it was a good deal, but there is, and I have. You overvalue those picks instead of looking at it as ‘two bullets that could become NHL players’ for a prospect that will play in the NHL.
Alex Plante and David Musil/Tyler Pitlick (which are right in the range of the picks traded) haven’t made an impact in the NHL and likely never will. There is a chance that Chia thought the draft was deep but the value wasn’t there from 10OV to 60OV.
In fairness, I keep quoting myself from the summer, so it isn’t like I am trying to re-start the argument. That said, I think many people do agree with you about the values, and Cullen’s guide suggests it is right in line (slight favor for the Oilers).
I don’t agree, but that doesn’t mean I am right.
How certain are you that LT overvalues the picks? Maybe you undervalue them?
I don’t agree with using the Cullen %ages, because I think that undervalues the upside of the picks. Even if I agreed that the percentages favor Reinhart, Iis it impossible that the chances Reinhart becomes a star D are lower than the chances that either pick would have become a star player?
More than possible, I think it is likely. I don’t promote Cullen’s study as the bible, merely as a reference point and at some level a beginning of the conversation.
Lowetide,
I’m not sure I’m right either.
I was in the ‘Dallas Eakins is a decent coach’ club, so my record is hardly impeccable.
speeds,
There’s a good chance that I do. I honestly feel like the value of picks outside of the top 10ish are pretty much a crap shoot.
yup, I get that, just adding some thoughts to it.
How is it that we hear so much about knowing this player, him growing in our backyard, and how knowledge of a player is so important, and now the farm reports are talking about his practice habits??
Would we not know this about him and would this not DETRACT from the appeal on this player??
We have also heard Griffen make a comment about his skating actually not being that bad. I have a feeling we are not going to see a Leon type development summer out of this player.
Quoted for unintentional hilarity.
14-7 for SA in shots during the first, Eetu was the story for Bakersfield.
Chia wanted to give Griffen another look this season. I’m sure he plays. I wonder if Griffen played with Sekera when he was up and Nurse saddled with Gryba if he would have stayed longer
I tell you what, watching this d corpse make a pass makes me really miss the half season that we had a healthy Ryan Whitney. That guy could really make a tape to tape pass to anywhere on the ice.
Reinhart was great with Davidson, very poor with Gryba
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=1996&withagainst=true&season=2015-16&sit=5v5
Class move by Raonic replacing his post match interview at the Aussie Open with a statement of condolence to LaLoche.
Class move by Ference and the Oilers foundation to feature Pride tape at there skills competition.
Duncan Keith – 154 AHL Games
Erick Karlsson -12
P.K. Subban – 77
Zdeno Chara – 48
Didn’t hurt these Norris trophy winners
I actually like Michael Schuckers expected games played formula for assessing draft pick value. Using his methodology – #16 and #3 are worth 413 and 237 NHL games respectively. So GR needs to play 660 games to break even. A high bar – but – a #5 pick can be expect to play 741 games. Reinhart seems easily worth #16 alone – adding #33 on top of that “feels” a bit much – and I suspect most people would have been more comfortable with a 1st and 3rd (as would I). I like the player which as others have pointed out is in the Coburn/Alzner tree – and this type is highly undervalued because the offense is relatively modest. Sending Nurse down originally was the right move as he’s getting hammered. I’d send both him and GR back down after the NAS game and keep them there until the trade deadline if possible.
Do we not count the AHL playoff games Nurse played?
Off topic, but Edmonton related, and we occasionally chat about music:
Just got back from Black Sabbath’s show in Chicago and they were incredible.
I know they’re playing Rexall Place soon, so if you have any interest, go!
Lowetide,
Yeah I assumed so. Never like a two defensive defensemen pairing.
I don’t think I’d have traded 16OV for him alone, nevermind 33OV.
Just got Sabbath tix yesterday. Going with my son. Should be fun.
Thanks for the heads-up. If one is going to hear a one-word report, “incredible” is a pretty good word.
This isn’t meant to knock Reinhart, though I’ll admit I was one of those people who hated the trade (and still do), but are there any top 4 Dmen in the league who have both:
A) Below average speed, and
B) A below average first pass?
Because that’s where Reinhart is right now. Not saying he won’t ever get there, he’s still young, but in my opinion it is hard to become a top 4 defender (on a contending team) without those attributes.
Not saying that another Mark Fayne-esque player isn’t useful, but players like that are usually available in Free Agency on a yearly basis (see Mark Fayne). Hard to justify spending two high picks in a deep draft on a player who hasn’t shown those attributes.
Again, Reinhart is an Oiler so I’m cheering like hell for him, and don’t blame him if he doesn’t become the top 4 defender we want him to be, but just saying if he doesn’t, Chia can’t be let off the hook for it.
One of the things to keep in mind with the Reinhart trade is that Chiarelli just fired his head amateur scout. If that’s the case, can you really trust the homework he and his staff put in to the draft list? You’ve already said it isn’t worth going off of, so trading those high-value assets for something you’re more sure of has appeal.
If only Reinhart were RH, I don’t think these debates would be nearly as fierce. But alas, he’s not, and that handedness issue still needs to play itself out.
Reinhart has never had below average speed or skating, your not gonna find this in the scouting reports and you will definitely not see this in the games either. I think his passing is just fine as well he is not an offensive defenseman but makes a good first pass, to get it into the hands of the forwards quickly and efficiently is more his game.
Another prospect thrown to the wolves by stupid management.
Lois Lowe,
Isn’t choosing two guys who haven’t made it and aren’t lookinggreat the same as saying “that could have been Subban and Perron!”?
Ultimately, it’s not the pics. It’s Griffin. He might yet make it but if you choose any other d man with his age and pro hockey record there’s no way that guy gets that return. Coglianio jumps to mind.
Unless you want to give Griff bonus points for his junior record. I think this makes some sense but the board consensus is we can’t do that for Seth Jones.
He’s no bust, but it looking at his pro record this like an objective overpay to me.
hunter1909,
The team is in a tough spot, but i thought they’d try Musil or Osterle.
Bad teams are perpetually “in a tough spot”
A Decade, Ten Long Years and no playoffs, with Lowe+MacT the pair of stupidest fucks imaginable, literally basket cases, punch drunk ex athletes who took Sather’s legacy and rode it like a 10 dollar mule until 2016 when we arrive to this point in time.
In another tough spot.
Hjalmarsson
Willie Mitchell
Regehr. I believe he was playing to four minutes with the Kings.
Andrew Ference
That’s just looking at the most recent cup winners. There are probably a few more examples.
Free Agency offers next to nothing unless the team is already as good as ready to contend.
“Players like that are usually available in Free Agency” is one of those hackneyed expressions that sounds impressive, unless you scratch the surface to the point where there’s often nothing of any substance to back up these types of claims.
I’ve been reading how the Oilers could easily fix their defence woes via free agency, when the reality is there are almost no quality players of any ilk that make it to begin with. So. Where do these mythical players come from?
I am a contrarian and believe Griffin Reinhart will be a solid addition to the D corps. It may take a little bit of time but he will be a valuable asset.
OWES US…that’s funny.
I agree defensive dmen get no love front the stats crowd. We are 12th in PK.pretty damn good. PP is a different story. CHIA brought in some good D players and they are doing their job. The offensive guys are the problems.
Is Marian Gaborik fast?
If you say yes, then you can not say that Reinhart is slow because in the LA game earlier this year, Reinhart and Gaborik raced from the neutral zone, side by side for a puck in the oiler zone by the faceoff dot, Gaborik did not gain an inch.
It was also not the end of a shift for Gaborik, as he just got on the ice. Maybe he was injuried, or now he is not fast ( he used to be one of the fastest skaters I believe)
Not unlike Draisaitl last year, I would say Reinharts first couple of steps that could stand to be quicker.
And as with every young D man, he just needs some more reps.
For me where the “slow” goes from in the Reinhart narrative, its because he is a big player, who does not have the quickest feet and can be tentative
This is a smart player, once he gets comfortable and the game slows down for him, he will be fine.
Was happy when the trade was made. Still very happy about it.
I also think if the Oilers were going to use the 16th they would not have chosen Barzal but a D. And this one is a good one. I dont care if he was chosen too high in a previous draft. He is Musil with hands and wheels and he is about 3 years late for this particular void in the Oiler D corps.
I think MBS should have been fired years earlier along with every other obc member. I am oddly ashamed to see Lowe and MacT on the payroll.
I think those that haven’t played the game at a higher level and use the fastest players as a comparison. 6ft 4 guys have a slower cadence but longer strides. The often look slower. There’s also a difference between fast and quick. Add to that size that is necessary to win corner competition. There is some tradeoff.
The internet is a frustrating thing, and Reinhart’s speed is one of those things that apparently became fact without debate. I don’t think it matters now, as always people have chosen the hill to die on. We will see, as time will answer the question.
Well, we can never have enough whipping boys on this team. 🙂
But it would do him good to run over a Flame or Canuck.
I don’t think straight ahead speed is Reinhart’s issue.
Its “quick feet”
Same thing that made Belov and Nikitin look slow.
His decision making translating to his skate edge and the first stride to where he’s going.
More reacting than thinking and having his feet respond quickly and correctly too.
From Terry Jones’ piece:
“David Pelletier came out this past week and I worked with him on my skating for an hour or two before each practice,” he said of the former world and Olympic champion figure skater.
“I think practice is where I can improve the most right now. I’m working on my habits and being hard to play against in practice. I’m doing things with intensity and always going 100% in practice,” said Reinhart.
Coach Gerry Fleming said Reinhart is proving he’s a pro.
“There are definitely things in Griff’s game that he still has to work on – his ability to jump in on the rush, moving the puck, quicker decisions, things like that.
“But here’s a guy who has come down here and worked hard. He’s worked hard at being intense and solid every shift he’s been on the ice. For a young guy he has some good experience and he can use that experience to help the other guys out a little bit.
Pelletier isn’t working with someone for 1-2 hours before practice for a week if the org doesn’t think he needs it.
Then Fleming mentions moving the puck and decision making.
As soon as Reinhart has NHL instincts and NHL feet he’ll be fine, but he’s not there today.
Link to Jones’ piece: http://www.edmontonsun.com/2016/01/08/jones-griffin-reinhart-working-hard-to-prove-hes-a-pro-for-the-oilers-down-in-bakersfield
Probably not good for Musil that he hasn’t been called up given all the injuries.
As bad as the Moroz pick was, the Musil pick was as bad or worse.
Musil may have been a reach pick, but not by much. was ranked anywhere from the 30’s to early 40’s. Earlier in his draft year, he was talked about being a late first rounder.
Moroz pick was a HUGE reach pick. Nobody but the Oilers probably had him in the top 90. But because Oilers they took him early 2nd round.
Nah. Musil is blocked by Reinhart, similar players but GR is better across the board. Musil and Moroz were reach picks because of the type of player they will be/are, but Musil has accomplished more in pro than Moroz. I don’t think he will play for the Oilers, but would bet he has more career GP than Moroz when all is done.
Lowetide,
LT, do you know if Griffin is playing the left side or right side down in Bakersfield??
What hurts about Musil was Saad, Jenner, and Jurco all slipped out of the first round. They probably wouldn’t have picked Jurco, but Saad or Jenner would have been good pick ups.
He is blocked, but Reinhart hasn’t played off the charts in Bakersfield. With Musil being waiver eligible next season if you were ever going to take a look at him, this is the time to do it.
As we have witnessed, Nurse can perform in the show. The young man has played well but the grind of battling men 3 nights a week who are just as strong and just as fast wears on the body no matter the age. Give him 2 games in 5 off or even better PB him a week and see the response. If the mental mistakes continue he should have an AHL stint.
I can think of no Oiler who more needs these 9 days off than Darnell.
It was this time last year that the schedule caught up with Leon profoundly. Fatigue takes a big toll on the young guys. They aren’t used to travel and schedules like this.
Does it tell who the forwards on our and opposition are on each shift. I think that would be important. It they got tough minutes that might in itself explain it. When I watched them I eyeballed that the we’re quite effective against tougher competition.
I don’t understand the question. Sincerely.
Yeah, I never know about AHL numbers, etc. Draisaitl didn’t impress but he killed the NHL! Crazy.
What time is the game?
What time is the game?
What time is the Game?
What Time is the game?
What Time is The game?