RE 17-18 JUSSI JOKINEN: BACK AND FORTH

Jussi Jokinen is a smart player with skill, and he is a very good fit for these young Edmonton Oilers. A solid player without the puck, he’s also wicked skilled with the puck on his stick. Although his 2016-17 season (69gp, 11-17-28) was disappointing based on his own established history, Jokinen is an excellent bet for the coming year. The big question: Where to play him? (Back and Forth).

JUSSI JOKINEN 2016-17

  • 5×5 points per 60: 0.94 (9th among regular forwards)
  • 5×4 points per 60: 3.36 (7th among regular forwards)
  • Corsi for 5×5 %: 53.3
  • Corsi Rel 5×5 %: 2.8
  • DFF Elite 5×5 %: 46.0
  • DFF Elite Rel 5×5 %: 0.4 (38 percent of TOI v. elites)
  • Shots on goal/percentage: 118 shots/9.3%
  • Boxcars: 69gp, 11-17-28
  • (All numbers via Puck IQStats.HockeyAnalysis.com and hockey-reference)

RE 17-18: 71GP, 15-19-34 (.479)

  1. What do you think? I love the signing because it brings balance and structure to the forward group, and one assumes some real competition to LW. Jokinen has substantial skill and could end up playing with 97 during the year. There are so many applications for Jokinen on this roster the Oilers could use another. He’ll spend the entire season in the lineup if health allows.
  2. You have him increasing offensive output only slightly. Yes, mostly because it’s damn near impossible to slot him in. Jokinen could play several roles on this team, he’s a really good option in a few areas.
  3. Like? He is a good possession player, deployed by Florida against elites for 38 percent of his total minutes. He could play on a designated tough minutes line with (say) Nuge.
  4. What else? He is skilled enough to play on one of the top two lines, can play either wing and a little center. He might end up playing with Lucic and Leon on a second scoring line.
  5. Anything left? Mentor to Jesse Puljujarvi is another possibility, that might be the most important role of all. If Jokinen can help the transition for the big Finn, it could benefit this Oilers team in a major way.
  6. How was he used last season? We’ll go Puck IQ first. He was 46 percent against elites (38 percent of 5×5 TOI), 50 percent against middle (40 percent of 5×5 TOI) and 51 percent against the gritensity (22 percent TOI).
  7. So he did play tough opponents. You bet. According to Puck IQ (bless you boys) Jokinen played 78 percent of his 5×5 season against middle to difficult opponents. That’s a valuable player and one Edmonton can use in that role.
  8. What was his TOI breakdown a year ago? He was 13:35 at even strength, 1:21 on PK and 2:27 on the power play. This is via NHL.com.
  9. Is that what you envision for him in Edmonton? I think his power-play time might be reduced and he could play a little more on the PK, but that’s a guess.
  10. Who did he play with? Mostly with Reilly Smith and Vincent Trocheck, good possession numbers with both but not a lot of offense. Again, Puck IQ tells us he played tough minutes.
  11. Okay, what is your number one option for him? I would love to see him flourish on the third line with Ryan Strome and Jesse Puljujarvi. I would like to see the Oilers try that idea early in the season.
  12. Your RE suggested he won’t be there long. I couldn’t really decide how much time he would spend on a soft minutes line but he’ll have good skill linemates when heading up the depth chart.
  13. How did you break down his numbers? I gave him a pretty good 5×5 scoring total (27) and fewer power-play points (7). Not sure how much he’ll play on the 5×4.
  14. Could he explode and have a 60-point season? Jokinen posted 60 points two years ago playing with Smith and Trocheck. My guess is he was playing softer minutes. If he gets a feature role and plays with 97 or Leon, maybe he posts another big season. It isn’t a crazy thought, but not one we can predict.
  15. Best quote on Jokinen since the signing? Jouni Nieminen: “To me Jussi Jokinen is the definition of Finnish Sisu and versatility. Knock him down 3 times, gets up 4. On waivers twice, bought out once.”
  16. What does sisu mean? Sustained courage under trying circumstances over a long period of time.
  17. So, Oilers fans are sisu? Sisu prime.
  18. He’s an older gent. Peter Chiarelli likes these types, skill players who have another gear and hung around long enough to figure it out. He acquired Mark Recchi when he was 40 and brought him back for two more seasons. (Note: Not saying he’s Recchi).
  19. Best signing of the summer? I honestly don’t think it’s close. Maybe the best NHL free-agent signing of Chiarelli’s time in Edmonton.
  20. Why this song? Happy upbeat song about looking forward while also spending some time in the good part of the past. Jokinen is on record as saying he signed with the Oilers to win the Stanley Cup (source: Oilers Now) and I cannot recall the last free agent to say that out loud.

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42 Responses to "RE 17-18 JUSSI JOKINEN: BACK AND FORTH"

  1. striatic says:

    Reading Panthers blogs after the signing, they didn’t seem too shook up about buying him out, which is a little worrisome but fans will be fans. The primary concern seemed to be that he lost a step in the back half of the season, playing through injury, and that age was catching up to the player.

    At 1.1 million, the spend is so low that it is worth it, but I think expectations should be kept fairly low when it comes to this player.

  2. OriginalPouzar says:

    Like quite a few of the forwards on this team, really tough to do an re: on this player I’m sure as who knows where he’s going to play or who he might play with – he’s likely to be all over the lineup.

    This has nothing to do with nationality but it would be great if he could mesh with JP on a third line (with Nuge or Strome). If Drai is playing 2C, there could be some butter minutes there.

    Really like the signing – PK, hockey IQ, PK, good attitude, likely motivated to bounce back (not to mention, a relationship with JP).

  3. Lowetide says:

    striatic:
    Reading Panthers blogs after the signing, they didn’t seem too shook up about buying him out, which is a little worrisome but fans will be fans. The primary concern seemed to be that he lost a step in the back half of the season and that age was catching up to the player.

    At 1.1 million, the spend is so low that it is worth it, but I think expectations should be kept fairly low when it comes to this player.

    He went 6-9-15 in his final 28 games, that’s a 44-point pace. Fans often remember badly.

  4. OriginalPouzar says:

    Whoa – 38% of time against elites? Did I know that?

    His possession numbers look even stronger given his QOC.

  5. Scungilli Slushy says:

    I have liked Jokinen for ages. I hope it works out for him, but mostly for JP to feel like he has a friend and can feel comfortable being away from home.

    I also hope JJ will mentor. Quality diverse players have a lot to teach to those willing to listen.

  6. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Sorry to go off topic. There have been comments about the Laughs and Dead Things being over cap, the DT’s also having a nasty roster.

    The concept is fairly convoluted, certainly set up to be gamed, and it seems they both have LTIR players that won’t play. Both will be covered by these players. I’m not 100 % clear on how it works off season in terms of getting under the cap, but it’s the plan I’m sure.

    By utilizing a chronic LTIR player a team can circumvent cap. If you trade for a 5M done player under contract and game callups from the AHL you can get easily go several million over the cap. It seems like e everyone should do it.

  7. Munny says:

    Is backup goaltending the only thing holding us back from the balance photo? That’s the impression I got from the morning post, but I’m a little unsure.

  8. Lowetide says:

    Munny:
    Is backup goaltending the only thing holding us back from the balance photo?That’s the impression I got from the morning post, but I’m a little unsure.

    Interesting take. What do you think the Oilers need to achieve balance (or depth, or whatever word you’d like to use)?

  9. Bank Shot says:

    I really like this move. Swiss army knife player on a cheap contract. He can fill in a lot of spots when needed.

    The only downside to this move is that it adds another slowish skater to a forward group that is pretty plodding outside of McDavid, Caggiula, Kassian, and Puljujarvi.

    Hopefully there is a trade to be made this year or next to address that. It’d be nice to have a little more speed up front. Especially on the PK.

  10. leadfarmer says:

    Lowetide: Interesting take. What do you think the Oilers need to achieve balance (or depth, or whatever word you’d like to use)?

    Healthy Sekera and James Neal would do it for me.

  11. Scungilli Slushy says:

    My concerns remain 2RD and 3C. If they are serious about a cup run these are the areas of question that will cause problems and did last playoffs. There are enough wingers to figure it out. Maybe a more proven back up.

  12. Cameron says:

    Lowetide,

    IMO:

    Draisaitl to push riverwater on his own line away from McD
    Sekera to be healthy and work a 2nd pair that stays above water
    JP to be a two way beast rocking a 15 Goal 40 Pt season
    A backup who wins more than he loses

    Its close

  13. OriginalPouzar says:

    Bank Shot:
    I really like this move. Swiss army knife player on a cheap contract. He can fill in a lot of spots when needed.

    The only downside to this move is that it adds another slowish skater to a forward group that is pretty plodding outside of McDavid, Caggiula, Kassian, and Puljujarvi.

    Hopefully there is a trade to be made this year or next to address that. It’d be nice to have a little more speed up front. Especially on the PK.

    I would add Nuge and Slep to the “non-plodders” – Khaira too if he’s on the roster/in the lineup.

  14. Lowetide says:

    Cameron:
    Lowetide,

    IMO:

    Draisaitl to push riverwater on his own line away from McD
    Sekera to be healthy and work a 2nd pair that stays above water
    JP to be a two way beast rocking a 15 Goal 40 Pt season
    A backup who wins more than he loses

    Its close

    Yeah. Three of those things probably only come about after a successful season from young players. I like all three but youngsters are youngsters.

  15. OriginalPouzar says:

    Mike Fisher and a healthy Sekera would set the balance.

    I’m not sure that signing would mesh with the “personality” theme of this morning’s blog. Also don’t see the man leaving Nashville.

  16. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Jokinen posted 60 points two years ago playing with Smith and Trocheck. My guess is he was playing softer minutes

    Actually it was really close in terms of QoC.

    15/16

    34% vs Elite. CF% 51%, RelCF +4.9%, DFF% 52.3% RelDFF +5.7%

    39% vs Middle. CF% 53.4%, RelCF +5.6, DFF 55.9%, RelDFF +6.2%

    27% vs Gritesity. CF% 56.4% RelCF% +3.9%, DFF 58.1%, RelDFF +4.8%

    Overall CF% 53.5%, RelCor +4.8%, DFF% 55.3%, Rel DFF% +4.8

    These are great numbers. Seriously quality top 6.

    His WOWY in 15/16 suggests he was driving the bus.

    HIs WOWY in 16/17 suggest that his team mates got better, but most were still better with him, but Trocheck drove more.

    Here’s the thing about his scoring.

    Its the oldest saw in fancystats.

    PDO

    15/16
    ONSH% 10.0 (PDO 1036) – 2.23pts/60

    16/17
    ONSH% 5.25 (PDO 968) – 0.94pts/60

    Over the last 4 years his ONSH% has been 8.07% with a 999 PDO, so this looks like a huge buy low opportunity.

    Unless he fell off the cliff. Could be, but since his underlying numbers are so good I doubt it.

    Also in terms of points was his individual SH%.

    10.19 in 15/16
    5.62 in 16/17

    His SH% is up and down quite a bit, his SH% over the last 5 years:

    12/13 – 15.8% (short season heater, traded to PIT at deadline)
    13/14 – 9.7%
    14/15 – 5.7%
    15/16 – 10.2%
    16/17 – 5.6%

    Last 4 years (excluding lockout heater) = 8.07

    I agree we can expect more than last year in terms of point production.

    Pretty great signing and great value.

  17. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Woodguy v2.0,

    These are great numbers. Seriously quality top 6.

    Just to give you an idea of how good a DFF% of 52.3% with a +5.7% Rel vs. Elite Forwards is, there was only 20 forwards last year who achieved a 52% with a +4.5 rel or better this year:

    Chris Kreider
    Brett Ritchie
    Mats Zuccarello
    Brandon Saad (CBJ was nuts trading him. I had him as the best Jacket last year)
    Nikita Kucherov
    Connor McDavid
    Taylor Hall (oh hai)
    Patrice Bergeron
    Patrick Maroon
    Vincent Trocheck
    Jordan Staal
    Jason Zucker
    Brad Marchand
    T.J. Oshie
    Justin Williams
    Blake Wheeler
    Sidney Crosby
    Trevor Lewis
    Leon Draisaitl
    Mikko Koivu

    Pretty slick list.

  18. stevebergeron97 says:

    Sorry off topic,

    Thoughts on how the recent Johansen signing
    8 x 8mil could influence the Draisaitl negotiations?

  19. jp says:

    Woodguy v2.0,

    I was already optimistic for a recovery, but all the more so now. Thanks for all the info!

  20. Lowetide says:

    stevebergeron97:
    Sorry off topic,

    Thoughts on how the recent Johansen signing
    8 x 8mil could influence the Draisaitl negotiations?

    Probably helps Chiarelli, he’s buying few UFA seasons compard to the Johansen deal. I think this signing should help Edmonton.

  21. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    jp:
    Woodguy v2.0,

    I was already optimistic for a recovery, but all the more so now. Thanks for all the info!

    You’re welcome

  22. OriginalPouzar says:

    Lowetide: Probably helps Chiarelli, he’s buying few UFA seasons compard to the Johansen deal. I think this signing should help Edmonton.

    I’m not sure I agree – I spoke a bit about this with WG in the other thread – while I acknowledge that RJ is giving up more UFA years and his production was done at center, at the end of the day, RJ has proven to be a 60-63 point player and his one 71 point season looks like the exception.

    Now, we all know that Leon played 57% of his time with Connor and that’s a factor, however, at the end of the day, I really think that point production is the primary factor in these types of negotiations and Leon just put up a 77 point season.

    Yes, he’s only done it once, yes he was with McDavid playing with 57% of the time (lots of faceoffs though) but he did in his contract year and, at the end of day, he’s going to use 60-63 vs. 77.

    I don’t think this helps as a 60-63 point player just signed for $8M X 8 – yes, Leon may be a 63 point player with 97 but at the end of the day, he just put up 77 plus a great playoff.

  23. OriginalPouzar says:

    WG, thank you for all the numbers on Jokinen.

    I was already very pleased with the signing and knew that he was a very versatile, smart and solid 2-way player but his advanced numbers truly are sensational.

    This was a fantastic bet and I’ve got a good feeling about Jussi.

  24. dustrock says:

    leadfarmer: Healthy Sekera and James Neal would do it for me.

    Man that would be get. Could argue one more RHD but yeah.

  25. Munny says:

    Lowetide: Interesting take. What do you think the Oilers need to achieve balance (or depth, or whatever word you’d like to use)?

    Well now that I re-read the section from the morning post, it’s a backup and a Jokinen-type for the right side. I think. Is my take correct?

  26. Lowetide says:

    Munny: Well now that I re-read the section from the morning post, it’s a backup and a Jokinen-type for the right side. I think.Is my take correct?

    I’m asking you what you think.

  27. leadfarmer says:

    dustrock: Man that would be get. Could argue one more RHD but yeah.

    Hard to know if and when it happens but if Nurse and Benning can take at least a small step forward I’m content with it. Ideally a good puckmover would have been brought in for that #2 RHD but with Russell coming back it’s not happening

  28. Munny says:

    Lowetide,

    Lol, I asked you first, dammit!

    Well I’m on record as wanting Jagr. And I’ve discussed with Gerta in the past that Brossoit makes me nervous…

    Broissoit is tough because at some point you have to see what he has. Backups seem to be the most easily attainable asset in the league, so I’m okay leaving port with the bow riding a little higher than the stern.

    JP is an unknown and Sleppy has a short track record, so I probably wouldn’t publish the balance photo without a vet on the starboard cannons.

    Center, especially on face offs, also makes me nervous, but Chia has given himself multiple options, so that likely wouldn’t hold me back either.

    So… do I have your take correct?

  29. Lowetide says:

    Munny:
    Lowetide,

    Lol, I asked you first, dammit!

    Well I’m on record as wanting Jagr.And I’ve discussed with Gerta in the past that Brossoit makes me nervous…

    Broissoit is tough because at some point you have to see what he has.Backups seem to be the most easily attainable asset in the league, so I’m okay leaving port with the bow riding a little higher than the stern.

    JP is an unknown and Sleppy has a short track record, so I probably wouldn’t publish the balance photo without a vet on the starboard cannons.

    Center, especially on face offs, also makes me nervous, but Chia has given himself multiple options, so that likely wouldn’t hold me back either.

    So… do I have your take correct?

    I like the goalie bet, makes sense until the deadline. RHD is a concern but they’ve blocked themselves now with the Russell signing. I’m not convinced they have a scorer among JP, Caggiula or Slepyshev, so 2RW is my primary worry. I think one might emerge or they may grab someone at the deadline, but 2RW and 2RHD are the ones I wonder over.

  30. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Losing in a series comes down to goaltending and defensively responsible positions.

    Take for example your Oilers who have had talent on the wing and no centres or decent D and couldn’t win.

    If they run Drai in the middle and he outscores and they don’t trade Nuge they have quality depth at C. If they don’t they have young and defensively wobbly CMD and Nuge and as far as known others crickets.

    If Bennett isn’t really good we have Russell playing off hand with his mid 40’s Corsi with Nurse.

  31. VOR says:

    Bag of Pucks,

    You are right. I was wrong. The NFL are still in a league of their own as it comes to trying to subvert research into CTE.

    It has gotten so bad the NIH has apparently walked away from their agreement with the NFL and some $30,000,000 in the process. The headline by the way is backwards. It is, according to the article and many other sources the NIH that is ending the partnership.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2724307-nfl-to-end-partnership-with-national-institute-of-health-on-concussion-study?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

  32. Pescador says:

    Lowetide: I like the goalie bet, makes sense until the deadline. RHD is a concern but they’ve blocked themselves now with the Russell signing. I’m not convinced they have a scorer among JP, Caggiula or Slepyshev, so 2RW is my primary worry. I think one might emerge or they may grab someone at the deadline, but 2RW and 2RHD are the ones I wonder over.

    I’m not the slightest bit worried about Brossoit, he will be solid. The Oilers are better defensively as a group. I’m sure there are year over year numbers to back this.
    Righty Jokinen could be had for $1-1.5 M. We have ample cap space, this is very perplexing. Plus I prefer Caggulia at LW. I will predict the Oilers offer another unsigned free agent a PTO ala Versteeg last year, You might have already guessed right with Drew Stafford.
    2nd pairing D are much trickier, either have to spend significant cap dollars & term or trade substantial assets. At least for a proven NHL’er.

  33. Professor Q says:

    VOR,

    Now that Canada is forcing increased precautions and protections be taken and more research be done, could this affect the NHL in any capacity, perhaps trickling into the junior leagues, CHL, AHL, and eventually NHL itself, in 5-20 years?

  34. VOR says:

    Professor Q,

    This is a complicated answer to your question.

    I can remember the first time a doctor told me I had a brain injury. I played fullback in soccer and repeated heading of the soccer ball appeared to be causing me to do increasingly poorly in school and to experience balance issues. I was thirteen and eventually (at 19) stopped playing soccer all together because of repeated head injuries suffered in aerial battles.

    My abandoning soccer might seem funny given I played football (middle line backer – defensive back) into my twenties, rugby (scrum half) into my thirties, and hockey (goalie) into my fifties. I hardly gave up sports that we now know put you at risk of brain damage. And frankly that I have always known intuitively involved some risk of head injury.

    The difference was I could feel the effect in soccer. By the end of my time in soccer any attempt to do heading drills left me more out of it than if I was drunk out of my skull. I couldn’t even ride my bike home after practice.

    I gave up football because those same symptoms started showing up during tackling practice. Well that and I was at an age where my career was at a natural conclusion. I wasn’t good enough to play pro and had used up my University eligibility. But what saved me I think was that my coaches thought I was too small to play middle linebacker and forced me to transition to corner back. My symptoms were concerning enough they took me off special teams and kept me out of contact drills in practice.

    I now know I played the two of the three riskiest sports in terms of CTE. Men’s football and Women’s soccer are 1 and 2 if all the research is correct. And men’s soccer is number 3 with a bullet. [Just an aside men and women’s basketball round out the top five]

    https://www.stir.ac.uk/news/2016/10/heading-a-football-causes-instant-changes-to-brain/

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/14/health/brain-damage-dementia-cte-soccer-football-study/index.html

    In the US they are actually taking heading out of lower levels of youth soccer (under 11) and in practice for kids 11-13. In the UK they are looking at banning it before 16. Many scientists and lawyers believe it will eventually be banned from the game entirely – and by eventually they mean in the next few years.

    Football has actually already taken some steps, banning head shots, late hits, and radically changing the way tackling is taught (don’t hit with your head – in my youth coaches actually talked about hitting the ball carrier with your head into their chest), and reduction in contact drills in practice. But if the research is right they are going to have to do far, far more. Football as we know it may be a dead man walking.

    Hockey is a bit different. First of all the risk of concussion and the risk of CTE as result of multiple sub-concussive traumas are not equal for all players and are actually lower than in soccer, football, or even basketball. I know goal tending looks really high risk and every goal tender I know has taken at least a few 100 mph slap shots off their helmet and trust me your brain doesn’t like it. However, the risk is really very small and I have never had symptoms in practice or a game and I actually don’t know any goalies who have ever experienced what I did in soccer and football. But the research does seem to suggest a career as a big hitting enforcer may be very bad for your brain health.

    Hockey long since reduced contact at younger ages. The NHL has cracked down on head shots due to the concussion issue. It also reduced fighting with the instigator rule and the role of goon via parity (most teams can’t afford to have anybody on their roster that can’t take a regular shift). It is hard to see what else they could do that wouldn’t fundamentally alter the on ice product. I am guessing there are probably going to be changes to practice and training regimes that will become common place such as no hitting in training camp – good old fashioned pond hockey all the way.

    They may even start drafting players who are less vulnerable to brain injury in the first place. It is becoming clearer and clearer that players that admit they are having a problem, get treatment, and avoid contact wherever possible, particularly in practice, have a better prognosis than those that remain silent and continue practice habits that are causing symptoms. This sort of self reporting and avoidance correlate with other character traits that make injuries in general less likely and that can be identified at the NHL combine. They could also start testing for neck strength – the stronger your neck the lower the likelihood of concussion and hopefully of CTE and neck strength can be tested and of course trained for though some of it is genetic.

  35. Munny says:

    Lowetide,

    Thank you. We’re pretty close then other than RHD in your case and RHC in mine.

  36. SwedishPoster says:

    VOR,

    That heading in soccer causes head injury is far from proven scientifically. Outside of that poorly constructad scottish study pretty much all other studies point to the contrary and at this moment in time based on the studies done I’d say the evidence is strong that heading a soccer ball does NOT cause head injury. With the caveat that the older leather balls were much heavier than modern balls, especially when there was rain, so guys who played back in the day might have been at risk. But with the balls currently used the evidence is pretty clear.

    That’s not to say there’s no severe head trauma in soccer, I have a dent from a fractured skull myself to prove it. But it’s from elbows to the head, heads crashing together, for goalkeepers kicks to the head isn’t uncommon. Indirectly this is ofc from heading a lot of the time as most situations occur when to players go after an areal ball but it’s not from the contact between the head and the soccer ball. Actually there’s been shown that by increasing the size of the ball you decrease head injuries because players are less likely to collied.

    One of the problems with head trauma in soccer is that there’s no natural breaks. If you get injured you better patch the player up and get him going or you bring on a substitute and substitutions are usually limited, to evaluate head trauma properly you need some ten minutes, time that doesn’t really exist in soccer so guys are sent back on the field without proper evaluation.

    To once again use myself as an example, very unscientific I know, I got kicked in the head pretty hard got shaken up but didn’t lose consciousness so not much to do but get up and finish the game, was only five minutes in or so, anyway I finished the game, had some headache after but just for a few hours so didn’t think much about it. A few weeks later my then girlfriend felt a bone ridge by my left temple where I got the kick, turns out I had fractured my skull. Now it wasn’t a big deal, didn’t affect me at the time and outside of my month long killing sprees once every blue moon it hasn’t had any longterm effects but it shows how little time there is for examination out on the field, it was an easy finding and something that could have been way worse but noone would have noticed much until I’d gotten severe symptoms and anyone who’s played sports know that you tend to ignore a lot of symptoms when you’re midgame.

    Oh and those head gears some soccer players use, mainly in the US and among female players, are pretty much useless.

    Anyway sorry about the OT. Back to your regular schedule.

  37. Bruce McCurdy says:

    SwedishPoster,

    Other than the odd month long killling spree, no problem. This made me laugh

  38. pts2pndr says:

    I believe that with internal growth of the young defense and our aquisitions by trade and free agency we may be able to publish the balance photo at the 25 game mark of this season. As LT is want to say we don’t know what we don’t know! My question is once LD is signed could part of the remaining cap be used for a signing bonus on an extension for Maroon thus saving money on next years cap? Love your blog LT!

  39. treevojo says:

    pts2pndr:
    I believe that with internal growth of the young defense and our aquisitions by trade and free agency we may be able to publish the balance photo at the 25 game mark of this season. As LT is want to say we don’t know what wedon’t know!My question is once LD is signed could part of the remaining cap be used for a signing bonus on an extension for Maroon thus saving money on next years cap? Love your blog LT!

    That’s not the way signing bonuses work.

  40. VOR says:

    Swedish Poster,

    That heading in soccer causes head injury is far from proven scientifically. Outside of that poorly constructad scottish study pretty much all other studies point to the contrary and at this moment in time based on the studies done I’d say the evidence is strong that heading a soccer ball does NOT cause head injury.

    I would agree with the first statement. I wasn’t attempting to say otherwise. I was simply saying that I stopped playing soccer because of the brain trauma I was experiencing and now the scientific evidence is starting to say I may not have been alone.

    The second state is simply wrong.

    http://www.neurology.org/content/88/9/901
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4800441/

  41. SwedishPoster says:

    VOR,

    I may have worded it a bit wrong but I disagree with the second statement being wrong, there are studies other than that scottish study that has results saying heading might be bad but thus far the stronger studies hasn’t shown a correlation between heading and short term nor long term issues. I came home from a congress in sports medicine just three weeks ago where exactly this was one of the topics so I’d say I’m fairly well updated and the consensus was that at this point in time evidence is fairly strong that strictly heading the ball is not causing head injury. The articles you linked doesn’t really sway me away from that, Don’t know if you read the full literary review but it is pretty badly done, it doesn’t really consider the strength of the articles they’ve read, they don’t go into any kind of depth when discussing the articles and overall haven’t really put any kind of consideration into the study other than the abstract and the introduction where it seems they haven’t really read the articles they’ve reviewed. The other article has pretty strong words in its abstract where it talks about cns symptoms with higher frequency of headers but really we’re talking an increase in mild symptoms with self reported slight pain and in some cases dizziness after heading the ball a lot compared to not as much. I’m not trying to mock the writers as this is one of those topics that are really hard to make good studies on and I do think it’s a good thing that people are looking into it from different angles but imo that article doesn’t say much in regards to heading more than it being somewhat uncomfortable at times.

    I’m not saying soccer is risk free in regards to head injuries and long term issues, on the contrary, but the way it stands I’d say just heading the ball some thousand times isn’t the issue but instead the more severe events of head trauma that occurs and in that case not just the obvious ones where players crash their head into posts, boots, elbows and other players heads but the more subtle ones like another player suddenly stopping you in full flight where there’s no actual direct impact to the head but still an event where your brain bumps around like a rubber ball in your skull.

    In regards to cte and dementia it’s still early goings and not enough evidence, will also be really hard to distinguish what actually caused the damage but cte is a hot topic these days and soccer is the biggest sport there is which should mean there’s a lot more to come. There’s an article coming out at the end of July in the british journal of sports medicine, might actually been released already, not quite sure when it’s due, should be interesting as it’s focused on dementia and soccer.

    I’m rambling on in this dead thread but just wanted to give an answer.

  42. VOR says:

    Swedish Poster,

    I appreciate the response.

    I wouldn’t have linked to the article if I hadn’t read it. I agree it cries out for meta analysis and possibly some evaluation of the relative merits of the studies. Though I thought there was enough there that you could make up your own mind vis a vis which were most credible and why.

    I don’t know how the issue of heading as a brain trauma event could ever be settled in a way that would satisfy all the critics on either side. What I do know is that heading the ball repeatedly, caused for me, brain trauma that produced symptoms that included positional vertigo, dizziness, blurred vision, and cognitive impairment. I played at a highly competitive level and at a vulnerable position (full back).

    I can’t be certain that I didn’t have concussions that weren’t diagnosed. I was an incredibly active young person and I loved contact sports (I wrestled, played football, hockey, rugby, and judo – not to mention playing basketball and baseball which apparently are also very high risk sports for head injury). It is entirely possible I was struggling with post concussion syndrome and the heading just exacerbated an existing condition. I might well have suffered a concussion or multiple concussions while playing soccer.

    We do know that a number of studies found that soccer has the second highest incidence of head injuries of any sport – after football. If that is true and given you are right about players not being taken off the pitch for long enough to actually tell if they have a concussion or not (and that was certainly my own experience) then you would think it would be nearly impossible to tell which aspect of soccer involves the most risk of contributing to long term brain deterioration as in CTE or dementia, and Alzheimer’s. We can only determine the causes of concussions that are identified as being directly related to soccer and if a large number are going unidentified we have no way of establishing the actual causes and the frequency of those causative events.

    I don’t know if soccer has a CTE problem or not but it is possible. American Football has certainly joined boxing as sports where brain deterioration appears to be a common event for aging athletes. The concussion numbers for high school girls soccer have in some studies been found to exceed that of high school boys football. But does that cause effects in later life? I’d guess a lot of researchers are trying to figure out a way to answer that question. I just read a paper about girls closing their eyes when they go to head the ball and this maybe making them more vulnerable to concussion.

    I am sure you and I can debate this for year’s into the future as new evidence comes to light and new research is published.

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