When Two Worlds Collide

In the spring of 2013 Craig MacTavish wanted to make specific moves to improve his roster. There was strong talk about a goalie (Vancouver reportedly asking for No. 7 plus plus for Cory Schneider) but those early draft picks are the life’s blood of an organization.

Other names in play for Edmonton were Braydon Coburn and Cal Clutterbuck. MacT didn’t make the deal because the ask was too great, the Oilers struggled along for two more seasons before settling the goalie situation. Trading for three veteran assets would have improved the team’s chances in 2013-14, but would it have been enough?

THE ATHLETIC!


The Athletic
 Edmonton features a fabulous cluster of stories (some linked below, some on the site). Great perspective from a ridiculous group of writers and analysts. Proud to be part of the group.INSANE NEW OFFER IS HERE!

  • New Jonathan Willis: A Milan Lucic trade is at the top of the to-do list for the Oilers’ next GM.
  • New Jonathan Willis: Why Edmonton should expand its GM shortlist now that Kelly McCrimmon is out of the running
  • New Lowetide: Should Oilers practice more patience in adding Evan Bouchard to the roster?
  • Jonathan Willis: Is Ken Holland yesterday’s man or the ideal GM candidate for the Oilers?
  • Lowetide: Jesse Puljujarvi and his uncertain future with the Oilers
  • Lowetide: ‘I see something special’: Are Oilers prepared to make Caleb Jones a fixture on the roster next season?
  • Jonathan Willis: Gritty comeback performance sends Edmonton’s farm team to the second round of the AHL playoffs.
  • Lowetide: Dylan Cozens might be ideal fit for Oilers at No. 8 overall in the 2019 draft
  • Daniel Nugent-Bowman: ‘Hard to please, but easy to work for’: How Sean Burke’s philosophy as a GM would benefit the Oilers.
  • Daniel Nugent-Bowman: A dogged realist, Kelly McCrimmon’s resume makes him an attractive candidate for the Oilers GM job
  • New Lowetide: Is this the season the Oilers take the plunge and draft a USHL player in the first round?
  • Jonathan Willis: Top Oilers prospect Evan Bouchard stars in his first AHL game as Condors dominate.
  • Lowetide: Adam Larsson’s importance to the Oilers and why trading him is a bad idea.
  • Lowetide: Tyler Benson’s comparables offer Oilers fans plenty of hope for the future.
  • Lowetide: Making the call on the Oilers’ RFAs with a new general manager on the way.
  • Lowetide: Red Wings front office shuffle could impact Oilers’ future.
  • Jonathan Willis: Potential coaching candidates and why the Oilers don’t need to rush the GM search to get one
  • Lowetide: The Milan Lucic saga rolls into Year 4 for Oilers with no easy answers
  • Jonathan Willis: Who stays and who goes? An early projection of which players will remain on the Oilers’ roster in 2019-20
  • LowetideHow high can these Condors fly?
  • Lowetide: The Oilers possible summer trade pieces, and which longtime players might be saying goodbye.
  • Daniel Nugent-Bowman: Ten prospects likely to be available when the Oilers make their first-round pick

THE FUTURE

MacT didn’t make his big summer trade until July 10, 2013. He sent Magnus Paajarvi and the second-round pick that became Ivan Barbashev to St. Louis for David Perron. As your eyes connect with the name “Perron”, your mind no doubt wanders to “what did the Oilers get for him?” and the answer is Rob Klinkhammer and the pick that turned into Mathew Barzal (part of the Griffin Reinhart deal). Vegas took Reinhart, saving Jujhar Khaira from the expansion draft.

In a nutshell, that’s the biggest job facing Edmonton’s next general manager. He needs to turn draft picks and entry free agents into players of value, either for deployment or for trade. He needs to win trades, to create trade trees that do not enrage the locals. He also needs to make the playoffs next spring, and it might be an idea to make it with some room to spare. That’s the job.

KEN HOLLAND?

I’ve guessed Ken Holland, that isn’t inside information, that’s a guess. I guessed Holland because Rod Pedersen seemed so sure, and he’s lived long enough to know the backlash if he’s incorrect. We don’t know what we don’t know, but it’s an interesting race to the finish here. I have no horse in the race, nor am I bitterly disappointed in the trio. I got all of the cheering out of my system when Peter Chiarelli arrived, and it turned out badly. It could be Holland-Dozier-Holland and I’d feel the same way (although I’d love the music). The need is great, the way is clear, what is the new guy going to do about it?

If it’s Ken Holland, I think it might be goaltending. He could even buy out Koskinen (here), sign Robin Lehner, Sergei Bobrovsky or Semyon Varlimov. Maybe he keeps Koskinen and trades for Jake Allen. I don’t really think he would do those things, but it’s an interesting thought exercise. We, as a group, approach the Oilers problems in a specific way, mostly agreeing on the big things (while setting each other on fire over minutiae).

He might pursue older free agents and former Red Wings. Maybe he would trade Milan Lucic for Justin Abdelkader. One thing he won’t be able to do: Damage the cap situation much more. That’s already been done.

AHL POINTS-PER-GAME AT 20 (F)

These are the leading Oilers prospects (at 20, AHL) since the turn of the century. The men who played over 500 games are Jarret Stoll and Kyle Brodziak. How about Holland’s Red Wings since the turn of the century? How did his AHL forwards do at 20?

The first thing you may notice is how each era is marbled through the century. There’s representation from each five-year stanza, meaning the minor league team was sending quality to the NHL consistently.

How many played 500 games? Jiri Hudler (708), Darren Helm (629), Tomas Kopecky (578), Tomas Tatar (507 and counting) are already there. Riley Sheahan (447), Andreas Athanasiou (248), Anthony Mantha (217) and Tyler Bertuzzi (128) are all matriculating. If you know Cory Emmerton, give him a hug today. Sports is cruel.

LOWDOWN WITH LOWETIDE

The entire TSN on-air staff will broadcast from United Cycle’s Community West store, 170 street and 108 avenue. We’ll have a chance for you to win a $1,000 shopping spree from United Cycle, as well as guests Steve Lansky (BigMouth Sports), Matthew Iwanyk (TSN1260) and Joseph Casciaro from The Score will talk Raptors. 10-1260 text, @Lowetide on twitter. Talk soon!

Reading the tea leaves, and we’ll chat tonight, maybe Ken Holland is considering offers from Edmonton and Seattle. That might explain the current situation. We’ll chat on the Lowdown.

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188 Responses to "When Two Worlds Collide"

  1. Woogie63 says:

    The Avs look very comfortable in this years play-offs.

    2018-19 season

    Avs finished with 90 points
    Oilers finished with 79 points

    This 6 more wins, two of which could have come against Colorado.

    Lets be very careful with the next steps and trades the fan base wants.

    the difference between play-offs and April golfing is close.

    1. Winger for McDavid
    2. Driasaitl to center his own second line
    3. Back-up goalie
    4. Play the Bako Bunch in the bottom 6/pairing

  2. SVR says:

    Tyler Benson looks great at the top of that list. Hopefully he can fill a top 9 wing position next season. We’ll see how he looks at camp

  3. Jethro Tull says:

    LT, your opening paragraph is why Gillis wasn’t considered. 7OV + was the ask for Edmonton. Gillis took the 9OV from NJ. Gillis either has a problem with the Oilers, or someone with the Oilers who is still here and won’t/can’t be fired. This then leads to the assumption that that person is part of the OBC. It follows that the OBC have more influence then they want us to believe.

    I may take a break if it’s Holland. The league is showing in huge neon letters which way the game is going and still the Oilers refuse to accept it. Decent analytics lead to decent scouting and decent game strategies. Ken thinks it’s all in the gut.

    Liking the colour much better!

  4. tileguy says:

    One thing he won’t be able to do: Damage the cap situation much more. That’s already been done.
    I guess next on the list would be to piss away prospects, all because of the mandate to make the playoffs now.

  5. Jethro Tull says:

    Woogie63:
    The Avs look very comfortable in this years play-offs.

    2018-19 season

    Avs finished with 90 points
    Oilers finished with 79 points

    This 6 more wins, two of which could have come against Colorado.

    Lets be very careful with the next steps and trades the fan base wants.

    the difference between play-offs and April golfing is close.

    1. Winger for McDavid
    2. Driasaitl to center his own second line
    3. Back-up goalie
    4. Play the Bako Bunch in the bottom 6/pairing

    Woogs, there’s no way I trade a winger for McDavid 😉

  6. Coiler says:

    Well if it’s Holland then it’s full steam ahead. Come what may, he won’t make the glaring salary cap and trade mistakes that Chiarelli made. That in itself can be considered a win I suppose.

    Ho-hum…a bit anti climatic after all this time. Hopefully his presser will help alleviate some of the fears Oilers fans have. If he turns into a mouthpiece for Bob Nicholson and reads off a script then ugghh…this will get ugly quick.

  7. Ben says:

    I admire your dispassion, LT!

    NIcholson about to make a hire which by all reports will bring in more of the same approach that’s mired the team for over a decade.

    We know how closely the Oilers sound out their season ticket holders. I wonder if the mink-garbed, blue haired denizens of the lower bowl might have responded to surveys saying that an old-school, successful hockey man like Holland is just the man we need.

    Meanwhile we number-loving peasants are left screeching from the rafters.

    I find this all extremely hard to watch and may need to retreat to baseball for my health.

  8. OriginalPouzar says:

    Finally, Condors start round 2 tonight against the Gulls from San Diego, coached by Dallas Eakins.

    Subject to Marody’s healthy, I would assume the same lineup as last game. If Marody can’t play, I would posit Hebig gets inserted over Ryan McLeod but I guess we’ll find out.

    Although I’m sure he’ll start out being just as sheltered as previous games, here is hoping Bouchard can get some real minutes this series so the org can get some real intel and info on where he may be at. I understand the extremely sheltered minutes he’s getting but its tough to glean too much from those minutes – they essentially put him in pure offensive situations and we know he’s already a plus player in those areas.

  9. defmn says:

    Woogie63:
    The Avs look very comfortable in this years play-offs.

    2018-19 season

    Avs finished with 90 points
    Oilers finished with 79 points

    This 6 more wins, two of which could have come against Colorado.

    Lets be very careful with the next steps and trades the fan base wants.

    the difference between play-offs and April golfing is close.

    1. Winger for McDavid
    2. Driasaitl to center his own second line
    3. Back-up goalie
    4. Play the Bako Bunch in the bottom 6/pairing

    Agreed in general although I think we need something better than a backup goalie. That position is too important to leave to hope.

  10. Nit64 says:

    Jethro Tull: Woogs, there’s no way I trade a winger for McDavid

    That’s FakeOilersGM worthy: Katz told me to get a winger for McDavid. Now he’s livid that I traded 97. So unsteady. Sad.

  11. Bad Seed says:

    Jethro Tull:
    LT, your opening paragraph is why Gillis wasn’t considered.7OV + was the ask for Edmonton.Gillis took the 9OV from NJ.Gillis either has a problem with the Oilers, or someone with the Oilers who is still here and won’t/can’t be fired.This then leads to the assumption that that person is part of the OBC.It follows that the OBC have more influence then they want us to believe.

    I may take a break if it’s Holland.The league is showing in huge neon letters which way the game is going and still the Oilers refuse to accept it.Decent analytics lead to decent scouting and decent game strategies.Ken thinks it’s all in the gut.

    Liking the colour much better!

    That’s a stretch. Do you think that he just didn’t want to trade to a division rival and if he did that there’d be a premium to pay?

  12. Ben says:

    Coiler: he won’t make the glaring salary cap and trade mistakes that Chiarelli made

    He’s done precisely that for the past decade.

  13. defmn says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    Finally, Condors start round 2 tonight against the Gulls from San Diego, coached by Dallas Eakins.

    Subject to Marody’s healthy, I would assume the same lineup as last game. If Marody can’t play, I would posit Hebig gets inserted over Ryan McLeod but I guess we’ll find out.

    Although I’m sure he’ll start out being just as sheltered as previous games, here is hoping Bouchard can get some real minutes this series so the org can get some real intel and info on where he may be at. I understand the extremely sheltered minutes he’s getting but its tough to glean too much from those minutes – they essentially put him in pure offensive situations and we know he’s already a plus player in those areas.

    I responded to this at the end of the post yesterday but since you re-posted it here I’ll do the same. 😉

    If they are going to expand Bouchard’s role I would think this is the time to try it. He has had time to practice with the team between series now so the coaching staff should have a much better idea of where he is at and what he can handle.

  14. OriginalPouzar says:

    I just want the GM named, whoever it may be, mainly so we can stop talking about all these candidates and catastrophizing the future based on one hire over another and proclaim to stop being a fan of the team if certain people are hired, etc.

    Lets get the GM in place so we can start to talk about the plan going forward and potential moves and then start to analyze actual transactions and decisions.

    With respect to any of the AGMs (or fromer AGMs) that have been mentioned or others without NHL GM experience, be it Hunter, McCrimmon, Verbeek, Guerin, Futa, Mellanby, Gretzky, etc., how does anyone know how involved they were in any decision/transaction made by their teams? Do w ehave any insight in to their mandate, day to day tasks, responsibilities? Any idea in to their involvement in any draft pick, other amateur signing, trade transaction, contract negotiation, etc.?

    I don’t so I have no idea if Verbeek or Guerin is any better of a candidate then Gretzky or McCrimmon.

    If its Holland, well, in that case there is a track record and, notwithstanding poor cap management recently, there was also decades of success. Perhaps he is a smart manager and would actually learn from his cap mismanagement, something that Chia never did?

    If Holland is hired, I’ll be in favor of Gretzky staying as an AGM for sure.

  15. DBO says:

    Only way I see Gretzky staying is if it’s Holland with the understanding that he is next up.

    If it’s Hunter, doubt he sticks around.

  16. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    Jethro Tull:
    LT, your opening paragraph is why Gillis wasn’t considered.7OV + was the ask for Edmonton.Gillis took the 9OV from NJ.Gillis either has a problem with the Oilers, or someone with the Oilers who is still here and won’t/can’t be fired.This then leads to the assumption that that person is part of the OBC.It follows that the OBC have more influence then they want us to believe.

    I may take a break if it’s Holland.The league is showing in huge neon letters which way the game is going and still the Oilers refuse to accept it.Decent analytics lead to decent scouting and decent game strategies.Ken thinks it’s all in the gut.

    Liking the colour much better!

    To be fair, Holland’s quote was in 2014.

    Some Detroit fans say that Detroit have been using analytics since then.

    Not defending Holland, who is not my first or even my 5th choice, but he likely isn’t Chiarelli-level when it comes to GMing. I suspect Holland has been advising/consulting rather than being interviewed.

    My gut analytics tell me that Holland has been offered the job, but wants to work with Yzerman for at least 1 yr before moving on, if he does at all. Perhaps Seattle has more appeal to him.

  17. Ben says:

    OriginalPouzar: If Holland is hired, I’ll be in favor of Gretzky staying as an AGM for sure.

    I don’t understand this. If Holland and Gretzky have demonstrated strengths, they’re both on the draft/develop side. We don’t know Gretzky’s pro record, and Holland’s signings and trades have been underwhelming for a decade.

    If they hire Holland they’ll need support and fresh thinking on the pro side. If anything I’d be less concerned about retaining KG.

  18. OriginalPouzar says:

    Buying out Koskinen? Can this be a real option?

    I’ve been very vocal with my thoughts on the signing and the player and i think this position is a potential major issue over the next 3 years but I don’t think I can be in favor of a buyout. Even taking away extending the term of the contract for 3 years with a dead cap hit of almost $2M, how would it look on the organization to sign a player for 3 years and buy him out before the contract even kicks in – does that ever happen?

    I think the org needs to at least run with Koskinen (along with a major 1B) for as season before they contemplate a buy out. Hopefully we aren’t discussing that at this time next year.

  19. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    Buying out Koskinen? Can this be a real option?

    I’ve been very vocal with my thoughts on the signing and the player and i think this position is a potential major issue over the next 3 years but I don’t think I can be in favor of a buyout. Even taking away extending the term of the contract for 3 years with a dead cap hit of almost $2M, how would it look on the organization to sign a player for 3 years and buy him out before the contract even kicks in – does that ever happen?

    I think the org needs to at least run with Koskinen (along with a major 1B) for as season before they contemplate a buy out.Hopefully we aren’t discussing that at this time next year.

    That’s just outright silly, LT’s just spit-balliing to try and cover several potential scenarios. It won’t happen.

    Has any NHL GM ever bought out a player before their contract has kicked in?

  20. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    OP,

    Is Maksimov not an option for Bakersfield at all for the playoffs? Just wondering if perhaps you’ve heard anything about him being possibly available for Conference Finals.

    Is he rehabbing his injury (do you know what ails him?).

  21. Dustylegnd says:

    Oiler Needs

    2 wingers that can score to play with McDavid, the fact we don’t have wingers that can put up numbers playing on McDavid’s wing tells you how shitty our depth of talent is

    2 wingers to play with Leon while he centers his own line…please see above

    Right shot D man that can also run a PP

    True #1 D man that can log 25 minutes per night and thrive doing it

    Bone fide #1 Tender

    2 additional puck moving D men

    2-3 forwards capable of killing penalties

    Where do I sign up to be the GM of this shit show??????????????????????

  22. JimmyV1965 says:

    Jethro Tull:
    LT, your opening paragraph is why Gillis wasn’t considered.7OV + was the ask for Edmonton.Gillis took the 9OV from NJ.Gillis either has a problem with the Oilers, or someone with the Oilers who is still here and won’t/can’t be fired.This then leads to the assumption that that person is part of the OBC.It follows that the OBC have more influence then they want us to believe.

    I may take a break if it’s Holland.The league is showing in huge neon letters which way the game is going and still the Oilers refuse to accept it.Decent analytics lead to decent scouting and decent game strategies.Ken thinks it’s all in the gut.

    Liking the colour much better!

    GMs are loathe to trade to teams within their own division. Even more so if it’s an elite goalie. That’s why the ask is more from Edmonton than New Jersey.

  23. JJ says:

    Ben says:
    May 3, 2019 at 9:00 am

    Coiler: he won’t make the glaring salary cap and trade mistakes that Chiarelli made

    He’s done precisely that for the past decade.
    ——————————————————————–

    My fear about Holland exactly.

    Chia just showed us he did not learn anything from the Boston capped-out experience.
    He came here and did the same thing.

    Why do people think Holland will operate any differently than he has in the past?

  24. Jethro Tull says:

    Bad Seed: That’s a stretch.Do you think that he just didn’t want to trade to a division rival and if he did that there’d be a premium to pay?

    Had he not been involved in the Nylander fiasco, then I would have said yes. Edmonton actually did a very good thing letting Nylander back out the way he did. But there’s history there, and while we all like to believe our leaders are cold, calculating logic machines that only do things for the greater good (the greater good!), they’re human with all the emotions and bias that comes with it.

    Edit: Also invovled was the Capitals GM at the time, a one George McPhee. You’d have thought the first question in negotiations after “how long?” and “how much?” would have been “are you beholden to anyone else before we draw up the contract?”

  25. Jethro Tull says:

    Maoriduvpoojt: Has any NHL GM ever bought out a player before their contract has kicked in?

    Has any GM ever needed to?;-)

  26. Fgary says:

    As long as the people responsible for this mess are still employed by the organization, it is doubtful anything will change, coupled with the unwavering fan support, ie money flowing into the organization there is no pressure to make the neccessary deep changes this team needs. I believe the oilers are at a crossroads and with the changes coming with the younger generations if this team does not start winning soon the oilers cash train is in serious trouble. If this team was in any other market I feel like the fan support would have diminished alot quicker and changes would be forced. As long as the oilers have Connor and even leon, there is an incentive to watch just to watch them play. Lose that and what do you have left…yuck. Some how getting Connor may have just postponed this team’s downfall instead of saving it. What a shame.

  27. texmex says:

    If Holland gets the job…………………………………….. does he bring Babcock with him?

  28. PaperKurtRussell says:

    I watched the OHL final last night, and gotta say that Samurokov looks pretty freakin smooth. I’m no scout, but at this point I like him better all-around than Bouchard based on the handful of games I’ve seen. Future looks bright on D!

  29. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    Jethro Tull: Has any GM ever needed to?;-)

    Possibly, like when they inherit that contract/team. But they alwys give the player at least a chance to prove themselves.

    Darling would have been one to buyout during TC or at least before Regular season games started, lol. But like we all know, training camp/exhibition games don’t equate to sweet diddly when the games actually start to matter.

    Can you imagine the optics of such a thing, though, wow!

  30. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    Fgary:
    As long as the people responsible for this mess are still employed by the organization, it is doubtful anything will change, coupled with the unwavering fan support, ie money flowing into the organization there is no pressure to make the neccessary deep changes this team needs. I believe the oilers are at a crossroads and with the changes coming with the younger generations if this team does not start winning soon the oilers cash train is in serious trouble. If this team was in any other market I feel like the fan support would have diminished alot quicker and changes would be forced. As long as the oilers have Connor and even leon, there is an incentive to watch just to watch them play. Lose that and what do you have left…yuck. Some how getting Connor may have just postponed this team’s downfall instead of saving it. What a shame.

    That is so true.

    Why the hell can’t Katz take off his fanboy goggles and run the team like one of his core businesses.

    If Katz actually paid attention, Nicholson is not who he’d want to hire the GM.

  31. Rondo says:

    Holland is old school, has name recognition and makes it look like a safe bet. The game has passed him by.

  32. Ben says:

    Nicholson: We think this move shows our fans that we have a real willingness to look beyond our own Old Boys’ Club to draw from other franchises’ Old Boys’ Clubs.

  33. Jethro Tull says:

    Maoriduvpoojt: Can you imagine the optics of such a thing, though, wow!

    One thing I’m sure of is that the Oilers have never worried about optics.

  34. Bag of Pucks says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    I just want the GM named, whoever it may be, mainly so we can stop talking about all these candidates and catastrophizing the future based on one hire over another and proclaim to stop being a fan of the team if certain people are hired, etc.

    Lets get the GM in place so we can start to talk about the plan going forward and potential moves and then start to analyze actual transactions and decisions.

    With respect to any of the AGMs (or fromer AGMs) that have been mentioned or others without NHL GM experience, be it Hunter, McCrimmon, Verbeek, Guerin, Futa, Mellanby, Gretzky, etc., how does anyone know how involved they were in any decision/transaction made by their teams? Do w ehave any insight in to their mandate, day to day tasks, responsibilities? Any idea in to their involvement in any draft pick, other amateur signing, trade transaction, contract negotiation, etc.?

    I don’t so I have no idea if Verbeek or Guerin is any better of a candidate then Gretzky or McCrimmon.

    If its Holland, well, in that case there is a track record and, notwithstanding poor cap management recently, there was also decades of success.Perhaps he is a smart manager and would actually learn from his cap mismanagement, something that Chia never did?

    If Holland is hired, I’ll be in favor of Gretzky staying as an AGM for sure.

    I love how you ignore the fact the OBC has done a piss poor job hiring GMs for a decade which explains why most rationale fans are in angst over this critical decision.

    Sky nice and blue in Polyannaviille today?

  35. Yeti says:

    Jethro Tull: Has any GM ever needed to?;-)

    The Edmonton Oilers like to innovate…

  36. Jethro Tull says:

    Yeti: The Edmonton Oilers like to innovate…

    Instead, they’ll regurgitate.

  37. Durag says:

    Rondo:
    Holland is old school, has name recognition and make it look like a safe bet. The game has passed him by.

    Sounds like him and Bob will get along great!

  38. Jethro Tull says:

    OriginalPouzar: I just want the GM named, whoever it may be, mainly so we can stop talking about all these candidates and catastrophizing the future based on one hire over another and proclaim to stop being a fan of the team if certain people are hired, etc.

    You know this is an Oilers blog, right?

    Could be worse. No one’s mentioned the Hall trade or Jehovah yet.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uGw-UXXsXs

  39. JimmyV1965 says:

    I would think if they hire Holland it’s with the intention of having Gretzky as the AGM and grooming him as the future GM.

  40. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    Jethro,

    FYI, I am prepping a turkey dinner tonight for folks who have not grown up in Canada. Doing the cornbread cherry chorizo stuffing as usual (when I cook I don’t stuff the bird, I prep that dish separately).

    I baked the cornbread last night and used this recipe:

    https://sallysbakingaddiction.com/my-favorite-cornbread/

    It is tasty!

  41. Ryan says:

    JimmyV1965:
    I would think if they hire Holland it’s with the intention of having Gretzky as the AGM and grooming him as the future GM.

    My belief is that they will announce (via someone like Stauffer) that they made a hard run at hiring Holland, he declined, so they went with what they’ll refer to as the next best guy on their list. Kretzky.

  42. Jethro Tull says:

    Maoriduvpoojt:
    Jethro,

    FYI, I am prepping a turkey dinner tonight for folks who have not grown up in Canada.Doing the cornbread cherry chorizo stuffing as usual (when I cook I don’t stuff the bird, I prep that dish separately).

    I baked the cornbread last night and used this recipe:

    https://sallysbakingaddiction.com/my-favorite-cornbread/

    It is tasty!

    That’s awesome, thank you so much. Have saved the link.

  43. Jaxon says:

    I’m not sold on Kretzky’s drafting record or his AGM record with Chiarelli or Sweeney. He’s been ‘in the room’ for a lot of bad drafting and trades and contract negotiations. What did he have to say about them? Was he just a ‘yes man’ through all that? He didn’t argue against going heavy, or the big stupid contracts with constant NMCs… or drafting Senyshyn.

    Holland hasn’t really done that great since the cap era. Since 2005 the Wings have been running on the fumes of the dynasty that came before them. They lost to Edmonton in ’06. Then they had a few great years when Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and Kronwall were still near the top of their game. As that core got older things started going downhill. They made 3 rounds in 2013, but other than that, they haven’t made it past the 2nd round since 2009 and haven’t made the playoffs for 3 straight years. It was easy to not rush prospects when they had an all-star filled team for two decades with Yzerman, Shanahan, Chelios, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Lidstrom, Franzen, Holmstrom, Hudler, Hosssa, Schneider, Cleary, Filpulla, Bertuzzi, Samulesson, etc. of course their prospects could mature on the farm. Of course they took more time to mature because they were late first round and second round picks, which almost always require more time in the AHL to be ready. It wasn’t so much a decision as a result of being a dynasty before the cap era.

    They traded away 10 of 16 first round picks between 1997 and 2012, which is likely a big part of the reason they are now bottom dwellers. Holland took over as GM in 1997. I know we like to pump up previous winners ala Chiarelli, but sometimes winners fall into a great situation ala Chiarelli. I guess we should give him credit for finding Datsyuk at #171!!! and Zetterberg at #210!!!! but at that stage of the draft I think you’re getting into dumb luck territory, but kudos for recognizing and taking a chance on two Europeans before anyone else did. I don’t think you can get that lucky today as easily. Teams are more willing to gamble on Euros and know more about them through better/more viewings and better analytics.

    Also, Kretzky and Hunter are both nepotism hires, are they not?

    Anyhow…. umm, PAT VERBEEK!!!!

  44. flyfish1168 says:

    I am not a big fan of Ken Holland. I believe in “what have you done for my lately”. He has not done much for Detroit but watch his yesterday stars age and have cap issues himself. I am leary that he is yesterday’s GM and his thought process is behind him and living on past goiry. Jmho

  45. flyfish1168 says:

    I keep hearing whining sounds from phlegm fans. Such a fitting sound. Lmao

  46. Kinger_Oil.redux says:

    JimmyV1965:
    I would think if they hire Holland it’s with the intention of having Gretzky as the AGM and grooming him as the future GM.

    – This is my take as well. When Lou was hired by the Leafs (after getting “promoted” in NJ), everyone was wrong: Lou proved to be an adapt leader. When Lou went to NYI and said they would be playoffs this year, that was just an old man out of touch

    – The analyzing of the “track records” of potential GM’s: might be fun but provided little insight

    – The difference between good organizations and not so good is the quality of the people. Maybe quality of people comes from winning. But every organization (but us), they bring in new management and coaches and try stuff, untill it works, then those guys get the credit

    – I’d be fine, as I posted a few days ago with a Holland/Verbeek/Keith/Burke type thing (ie former GM and a bunch of guys who have shown some good things: Holland can “mentor” like Lou does, and add value where is able, and hopefully bring in smart guys

    – When I say fine: I still think its not innovative, but the best of the mediocre choices the the Oil seem to be drumming up

    – But a Bob/Keith/token new guy/MacT/Howson/Lowe/Hitch: that’s just awful, and likely

    – It’s the structure that matters, with management who have done things in structures that have worked, and you rinse and repeat untill it works: but don’t just keep adding layers onto structures that haven’t worked for a decade

  47. slopitch says:

    Why do people think Holland will operate any differently than he has in the past?

    Which past are we referring to? Because most of that past is pretty good.

    In 1994 he was made AGM.

    1995 1st in div, lost final
    1996 1st in div, lost conf final
    1997 2nd in div, won cup

    In 1997 he was made GM.

    1998 2nd in div, won cup
    1999 1st in div, lost conf final
    2000 2nd in div, lost conf semi final
    2001 1st in div, lost conf quater final
    2002 1st in div, won cup
    2003 1st in div, lost first round, Fedorov leaves
    2004 1st in div, lost conf semi
    2006 1st in league by a lot, lost first round, Yzerman retires
    2007 1st in div, lost first round, Yzerman being
    2008 1st in div, lost first round
    2009 1st in div, lost first round, Lidstrom retires
    2010 2nd in div, lost conf semi
    2011 3rd in div, lost first round
    2012 1st in div, lost conf semi
    2013 3rd in div, lost conf semi
    2014 4th in div, lost first round
    2015 3rd in div, lost first round
    2016 3rd in div, lost first round, Datsyuk retires
    garbage since – Zetterberg retires

    Compare that to the Oilers lol.

    Moral of the story its easy to build a team with a star dman – it started to unravel when Listrom left. Its fair to say the game changed and I dont think he adjusted well to the cap. But a big part of that imo is trying to win with stars in the last years of their career. Lets see how Pittsburgh does when Crosby retires or how Washington does when Ovie lets go. Id bet anyone here that no GM rebuilds in the final years of their careers. Would Zetterberg and Datskuk be the same? Both are likely hall of famers.

    Holland has employed some of the best coaches in the game – Bowman for 8 years and then Babcock for a few. Is Babs overrated? Maybe. But he’s prob a top 10 coach in the NHL today. With the termoil in Toronto, I wouldnt be stunned to see Babs coach with TO paying 50%.

    If my options are Hunter, KG and Holland. I take Holland and accept the risk that his last 5 years are the norm. And then hope that pink slips are handed out and the new guys can come in with a solid mentor. Id maybe even hope KG sticks around. The farm looks ok they need some continuity. The good candidates have said no (mostly, did they interview Hextall?) and Holland is a safe choice imo. Hunter doesnt do it for me and Kretzky hasnt done anything to earn a promotion.

    Holland also has worked with a great owner. Perhaps some of that could wear of on Mr Katz.

  48. HT Joe says:

    OriginalPouzar: Buying out Koskinen? Can this be a real option?

    Absolutely. Current cap hit:
    2019-2020: 4.5M
    2020-2021: 4.5M
    2021-2022: 4.5M

    Buyout cap hit:
    2019-2020: 744k
    2020-2021: 2.64M
    2021-2022: 1.44M
    2022-2023: 1.44M
    2023-2024: 1.44M
    2024-2025: 1.44M

    Saving $3.8 in year 1 could go a long ways towards paying for an actual starter. Year 2 is tough, but other cap saving moves should be possible between now and the start of the 2020-2021 season.

  49. HT Joe says:

    OriginalPouzar: I just want the GM named, whoever it may be, mainly so we can stop talking about all these candidates and catastrophizing the future based on one hire over another and proclaim to stop being a fan of the team if certain people are hired, etc.

    Lets get the GM in place so we can start to talk about the plan going forward and potential moves and then start to analyze actual transactions and decisions.

    Let’s get the GM in place so we can start catastrophizing the future based on the plan going forward and the potential disastrous moves and then start performing the failure analysis on the actual transactions and decisions as they occur. 🙂

    BTW, I fully support that if Holland becomes GM, I hope they keep K.G. as AGM.

  50. Darth Tu says:

    Buying out Koskinen – what are the cap ramifications of doing that? Remind me why we signed him to a 4 year deal?

  51. Darth Tu says:

    HT Joe: Absolutely.Current cap hit:
    2019-2020: 4.5M
    2020-2021: 4.5M
    2021-2022: 4.5M

    Buyout cap hit:
    2019-2020: 744k
    2020-2021: 2.64M
    2021-2022: 1.44M
    2022-2023: 1.44M
    2023-2024: 1.44M
    2024-2025: 1.44M

    Saving $3.8 in year 1 could go a long ways towards paying for an actual starter.Year 2 is tough, but other cap saving moves should be possible between now and the start of the 2020-2021 season.

    You answered my question for me – thanks! I should have read all the way through the comments before posting.

    I get that we save a bit here, but why do we keep doing this to ourselves? Buying out Pouliot was another bit of madness – I understand some people wanted to move on from him, but we’re committing cap suicide one slice at a time… $1.44 million a year essentially covers a bottom 6 player.

    I’m guessing the trade market for Koskinen amounts to exactly zero? No chance to move him whilst retaining $1.5 or so? At least that way we’d be out from under the contract by 2022 and not rolling with some cash against the cap until 2025.

  52. leadfarmer says:

    Ken Holland is a perfect guy to replace Chiarelli. It will be a seamless transition. We wont even notice a difference

  53. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    JJ,

    My fear about Holland exactly.

    Chia just showed us he did not learn anything from the Boston capped-out experience.
    He came here and did the same thing.

    Why do people think Holland will operate any differently than he has in the past?

    Same reason I thought Pete *must* have learned from his mistakes in BOS: Hoping for the best.

  54. adamjames2 says:

    slopitch:
    Why do people think Holland will operate any differently than he has in the past?

    Which past are we referring to? Because most of that past is pretty good.

    In 1994 he was made AGM.

    1995 1st in div, lost final
    1996 1st in div, lost conf final
    1997 2nd in div, won cup

    In 1997 he was made GM.

    1998 2nd in div, won cup
    1999 1st in div, lost conf final
    2000 2nd in div, lost conf semi final
    2001 1st in div, lost conf quater final
    2002 1st in div, won cup
    2003 1st in div, lost first round, Fedorov leaves
    2004 1st in div, lost conf semi
    2006 1st in league by a lot, lost first round, Yzerman retires
    2007 1st in div, lost first round, Yzerman being
    2008 1st in div, lost first round
    2009 1st in div, lost first round, Lidstrom retires
    2010 2nd in div, lost conf semi
    2011 3rd in div, lost first round
    2012 1st in div, lost conf semi
    2013 3rd in div, lost conf semi
    2014 4th in div, lost first round
    2015 3rd in div, lost first round
    2016 3rd in div, lost first round, Datsyuk retires
    garbage since – Zetterberg retires

    Compare that to the Oilers lol.

    Moral of the story its easy to build a team with a star dman – it started to unravel when Listrom left. Its fair to say the game changed and I dont think he adjusted well to the cap. But a big part of that imo is trying to win with stars in the last years of their career. Lets see how Pittsburgh does when Crosby retires or how Washington does when Ovie lets go. Id bet anyone here that no GM rebuilds in the final years of their careers. Would Zetterberg and Datskuk be the same? Both are likely hall of famers.

    Holland has employed some of the best coaches in the game – Bowman for 8 years and then Babcock for a few. Is Babs overrated? Maybe. But he’s prob a top 10 coach in the NHL today. With the termoil in Toronto, I wouldnt be stunned to see Babs coach with TO paying 50%.

    If my options are Hunter, KG and Holland. I take Holland and accept the risk that his last 5 years are not the norm. And then hope that pink slips are handed out and the new guys can come in with a solid mentor. Id maybe even hope KG sticks around. The farm looks ok they need some continuity. The good candidates have said no (mostly, did they interview Hextall?) and Holland is a safe choice imo. Hunter doesnt do it for me and Kretzky hasnt done anything to earn a promotion.

    Holland also has worked with a great owner. Perhaps some of that could wear of on Mr Katz.

    I agree with all of this. I think if Holland has shown he’s good at anything it is keeping a team with established talent competitive. Aging is inevitable and rebuilding is hard. I understand why people are concerned about his record recently with the cap and trading 1st rounders.

    But at a certain point a team has to lean to either “now” or “future”. I see Holland as a guy willing to bet on his team now, and maybe that’s what it takes to keep Mcdavid happy. If this team was full on rebuilding (again) then Holland is the wrong man for the job. But the really hard to acquire pieces are here and we know Holland has had success presiding over established elite talent.

  55. leadfarmer says:

    HT Joe: Absolutely.Current cap hit:
    2019-2020: 4.5M
    2020-2021: 4.5M
    2021-2022: 4.5M

    Buyout cap hit:
    2019-2020: 744k
    2020-2021: 2.64M
    2021-2022: 1.44M
    2022-2023: 1.44M
    2023-2024: 1.44M
    2024-2025: 1.44M

    Saving $3.8 in year 1 could go a long ways towards paying for an actual starter.Year 2 is tough, but other cap saving moves should be possible between now and the start of the 2020-2021 season.

    Who is this actual starter though? Bob will got to florida and we cant afford him anyways. Lehner probably re-signs. Allen lost his starting job after playing like crap. Varlamov’s groins are held in place with duct tape so hes not a guy I would rely on
    Best we can hope for is a guy that can start for a while but isnt a starter like Elliott (how many starting goalie spots has he lost now) or Greiss
    Or what I’m hoping they do is trade for a young guy that can take over as a starter fairly quickly like Georgiev or Samsonov

  56. bwar says:

    Give us a damn hire already!

  57. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    slopitch:
    Why do people think Holland will operate any differently than he has in the past?

    Which past are we referring to? Because most of that past is pretty good.

    In 1994 he was made AGM.

    1995 1st in div, lost final
    1996 1st in div, lost conf final
    1997 2nd in div, won cup

    In 1997 he was made GM.

    1998 2nd in div, won cup
    1999 1st in div, lost conf final
    2000 2nd in div, lost conf semi final
    2001 1st in div, lost conf quater final
    2002 1st in div, won cup
    2003 1st in div, lost first round, Fedorov leaves
    2004 1st in div, lost conf semi
    2006 1st in league by a lot, lost first round, Yzerman retires
    2007 1st in div, lost first round, Yzerman being
    2008 1st in div, lost first round
    2009 1st in div, lost first round, Lidstrom retires
    2010 2nd in div, lost conf semi
    2011 3rd in div, lost first round
    2012 1st in div, lost conf semi
    2013 3rd in div, lost conf semi
    2014 4th in div, lost first round
    2015 3rd in div, lost first round
    2016 3rd in div, lost first round, Datsyuk retires
    garbage since – Zetterberg retires

    Compare that to the Oilers lol.

    Moral of the story its easy to build a team with a star dman – it started to unravel when Listrom left. Its fair to say the game changed and I dont think he adjusted well to the cap. But a big part of that imo is trying to win with stars in the last years of their career. Lets see how Pittsburgh does when Crosby retires or how Washington does when Ovie lets go. Id bet anyone here that no GM rebuilds in the final years of their careers. Would Zetterberg and Datskuk be the same? Both are likely hall of famers.

    Holland has employed some of the best coaches in the game – Bowman for 8 years and then Babcock for a few. Is Babs overrated? Maybe. But he’s prob a top 10 coach in the NHL today. With the termoil in Toronto, I wouldnt be stunned to see Babs coach with TO paying 50%.

    If my options are Hunter, KG and Holland. I take Holland and accept the risk that his last 5 years are the norm. And then hope that pink slips are handed out and the new guys can come in with a solid mentor. Id maybe even hope KG sticks around. The farm looks ok they need some continuity. The good candidates have said no (mostly, did they interview Hextall?) and Holland is a safe choice imo. Hunter doesnt do it for me and Kretzky hasnt done anything to earn a promotion.

    Holland also has worked with a great owner. Perhaps some of that could wear of on Mr Katz.

    FYI, Lidstrom retired in 2012.

    I remember this because RNH turned him inside out just after crossing Det’s blue in his rookie season.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-WpLHjXu7Do

  58. Oilman99 says:

    Woodguy v2.0:
    JJ,

    My fear about Holland exactly.


    Chia just showed us he did not learn anything from the Boston capped-out experience.
    He came here and did the same thing.

    Why do people think Holland will operate any differently than he has in the past?

    Same reason I thought Pete *must* have learned from his mistakes in BOS: Hoping for the best.

    Totally agree, the old saying “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks” says it all regarding Holland. This is a new NHL, fresh eyes with fresh ideas is the only way this team is going to get the train back on the tracks, but I’m afraid Bungling Bob is going to put this thing deeper in the ditch.

  59. Bling says:

    Echoing what others have said here, Holland doesn’t even belong on a short list.

    I would be much happier with Hunter/Gretz/Burke.

    Holland has done a horrible job managing the cap and was late to analytics. You’re back to hoping that people have learned lessons.

    Hunter has seen the inner workings of an elite org, Burke has worked for the Coyotes, who have done some interesting things, and Gretz has done reasonably well in amateur procurement. That’s a group I could get behind.

  60. Oilman99 says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    Finally, Condors start round 2 tonight against the Gulls from San Diego, coached by Dallas Eakins.

    Subject to Marody’s healthy, I would assume the same lineup as last game. If Marody can’t play, I would posit Hebig gets inserted over Ryan McLeod but I guess we’ll find out.

    Although I’m sure he’ll start out being just as sheltered as previous games, here is hoping Bouchard can get some real minutes this series so the org can get some real intel and info on where he may be at. I understand the extremely sheltered minutes he’s getting but its tough to glean too much from those minutes – they essentially put him in pure offensive situations and we know he’s already a plus player in those areas.

    Not sure you will get your wish unless Bouchard shows more in the time he is given, or injuries occur. The team is trying to win a playoff series, not put unproven players into compromising situations to see how they handle it.

  61. slopitch says:

    Maoriduvpoojt: ost first r

    Noted: I wrote it quick. They won the cup in 2008 too (I have them losing the 1st round)

  62. JJ says:

    I am still hoping for Pat Verbeek as GM and have been for a while.

    He has a long history with Detroit when they were good and the last few years with Tampa.
    Young Willis writes about the choices for GM (Athletic) and talks positively about Verbeek.
    I think he would bring a lot of good processes to the Oilers.

    I think he could be a long time solution for the Oilers at GM.

  63. jtblack says:

    Let’s see. Edmonton is a team that has a CAP problem and finished bottom 10 in the league.

    Why not go after a GM who had a team in CAP HELL and finished bottom 10 in the league.

    #BecauseOilers

  64. slopitch says:

    If you pick Holland, you are hoping that his last 5 years are the anomaly or that he’s learned. If you pick, Hunter you are hoping he can be a good gm cuz he worked as an assistant for the leafs and ran the London Knights.

    I doubt anyone here knows enough. I dont. We are at the horse races picking our favourite based on very little info.

  65. Jethro Tull says:

    slopitch: I doubt anyone here knows enough. I dont. We are at the horse races picking our favourite based on very little info.

    There’s there thing. When I bet on horses I use the racing form – a horses past results given the conditions. It’s not all blind luck.

  66. JimmyV1965 says:

    Jaxon:
    I’m not sold on Kretzky’s drafting record or his AGM record with Chiarelli or Sweeney. He’s been ‘in the room’ for a lot of bad drafting and trades and contract negotiations. What did he have to say about them? Was he just a ‘yes man’ through all that? He didn’t argue against going heavy, or the big stupid contracts with constant NMCs… or drafting Senyshyn.

    Holland hasn’t really done that great since the cap era. Since 2005 the Wings have been running on the fumes of the dynasty that came before them. They lost to Edmonton in ’06. Then they had a few great years when Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and Kronwall were still near the top of their game. As that core got older things started going downhill. They made 3 rounds in 2013, but other than that, they haven’t made it past the 2nd round since 2009 and haven’t made the playoffs for 3 straight years. It was easy to not rush prospects when they had an all-star filled team for two decades with Yzerman, Shanahan, Chelios, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Lidstrom, Franzen, Holmstrom, Hudler, Hosssa, Schneider, Cleary, Filpulla, Bertuzzi, Samulesson, etc. of course their prospects could mature on the farm. Of course they took more time to mature because they were late first round and second round picks, which almost always require more time in the AHL to be ready. It wasn’t so much a decision as a result of being a dynasty before the cap era.

    They traded away 10 of 16 first round picks between 1997 and 2012, which is likely a big part of the reason they are now bottom dwellers. Holland took over as GM in 1997. I know we like to pump up previous winners ala Chiarelli, but sometimes winners fall into a great situation ala Chiarelli. I guess we should give him credit for finding Datsyuk at #171!!! and Zetterberg at #210!!!! but at that stage of the draft I think you’re getting into dumb luck territory, but kudos for recognizing and taking a chance on two Europeans before anyone else did. I don’t think you can get that lucky today as easily. Teams are more willing to gamble on Euros and know more about them through better/more viewings and better analytics.

    Also, Kretzky and Hunter are both nepotism hires, are they not?

    Anyhow…. umm, PAT VERBEEK!!!!

    Jaxon:
    I’m not sold on Kretzky’s drafting record or his AGM record with Chiarelli or Sweeney. He’s been ‘in the room’ for a lot of bad drafting and trades and contract negotiations. What did he have to say about them? Was he just a ‘yes man’ through all that? He didn’t argue against going heavy, or the big stupid contracts with constant NMCs… or drafting Senyshyn.

    Holland hasn’t really done that great since the cap era. Since 2005 the Wings have been running on the fumes of the dynasty that came before them. They lost to Edmonton in ’06. Then they had a few great years when Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, and Kronwall were still near the top of their game. As that core got older things started going downhill. They made 3 rounds in 2013, but other than that, they haven’t made it past the 2nd round since 2009 and haven’t made the playoffs for 3 straight years. It was easy to not rush prospects when they had an all-star filled team for two decades with Yzerman, Shanahan, Chelios, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Lidstrom, Franzen, Holmstrom, Hudler, Hosssa, Schneider, Cleary, Filpulla, Bertuzzi, Samulesson, etc. of course their prospects could mature on the farm. Of course they took more time to mature because they were late first round and second round picks, which almost always require more time in the AHL to be ready. It wasn’t so much a decision as a result of being a dynasty before the cap era.

    They traded away 10 of 16 first round picks between 1997 and 2012, which is likely a big part of the reason they are now bottom dwellers. Holland took over as GM in 1997. I know we like to pump up previous winners ala Chiarelli, but sometimes winners fall into a great situation ala Chiarelli. I guess we should give him credit for finding Datsyuk at #171!!! and Zetterberg at #210!!!! but at that stage of the draft I think you’re getting into dumb luck territory, but kudos for recognizing and taking a chance on two Europeans before anyone else did. I don’t think you can get that lucky today as easily. Teams are more willing to gamble on Euros and know more about them through better/more viewings and better analytics.

    Also, Kretzky and Hunter are both nepotism hires, are they not?

    Anyhow…. umm, PAT VERBEEK!!!!

    What do we really know about any of this? According to Stauffer, Gretzky was actually in Europe when Strome was traded. And by some reports, by the time the Manning deal went down, Chia was in full panic mode and might not have been listening to anyone. We also heard that by the 2015 draft, Gretzky was halfway out the door and Neely and company let him have the Debrusk pick, but made the other two first round picks.

    Holland has a track record as GM that I think is very definitive and underwhelming. Of all the GM candidates he’s probably the one I like least. But he’s the only one we can say for certain what his involvement was. For the rest of them, we can basically look at their drafting record and that’s about it. And even for Hunter, do we even know he was pumping the tires on all those overage draft picks?

  67. GordieHoweHatTrick says:

    When Two Worlds Collide: Win-Win / Lose-Lose / Luc-Lou …???

    Is it just a coincidence this week that Lucic publicly mulls over career retirement plans back in Vancouver and Ericksson publicly states he and the coach don’t get on so well?

    What does a reasonable Luc-Lou trade look like?

    Asking all you smarty-pants… 😉

    PS Rangers doing some rapid rebuilding over there (plus if Dallas beats St. Louis it looks like they have THREE FIRST ROUND PICKS this year, sweetness)…I like Leadfarmer’s suggestion of trying to grab Georgiev – if the price is right.

  68. John Chambers says:

    Staples article on the possibility of a Lucic for Eriksson swap makes me ponder whether there was an opportunity to trade Lucic’s contract last summer, and Chiarelli said ‘no’, believing in Milan to rebound.

    When Lucic settled in as a declining 4th liner that might’ve been the real death sentence – that a feasible way out of that contract problem was no longer possible.

  69. HT Joe says:

    leadfarmer: Who is this actual starter though? Bob will got to florida and we cant afford him anyways. Lehner probably re-signs. Allen lost his starting job after playing like crap. Varlamov’s groins are held in place with duct tape so hes not a guy I would rely on

    Easy… we just buy out Koskinen, and then hire the best KHL goalie from the previous year for $2.5M. The Oilers still end up with cap savings next season. haha

  70. JimmyV1965 says:

    I’m not necessarily a Holland fan, but really what the hell do I know. However, we should also factor in that playoff appearance record they were on. By the end, it appears they were simply making moves to keep the playoff steak alive. Whether that’s good or bad I don’t know.

  71. Nit64 says:

    “When Two Worlds Collide”

    Don’t know what that’s like. I’m an Oil Fan. Only used to One World Imploding.

  72. OmJo says:

    Maoriduvpoojt: Has any NHL GM ever bought out a player before their contract has kicked in?

    Has any NHL GM ever traded a first and second round pick for an AHL defenceman?

    Has any NHL GM ever traded an elite LW for a top 4 D without said player demanding a trade?

    Has any NHL GM ever signed a KHL goaltender to a 3 year contract extension after half a season?

    Never underestimate the ineptitude of the Edmonton Oilers organization. If it hasn’t been done yet then they very likely could be the first.

  73. Munny says:

    Nit64,

    *clap clap*

    GOilers.

  74. SVR says:

    If Bouchard can get enough games in this spring, it will really help his development. Then a good summer of training and all of a sudden, he could really challenge for a spot next year. Depending how he looks in camp

  75. Nit64 says:

    Friedman on Oilers Now now.

  76. Jethro Tull says:

    Nit64:
    Friedman on Oilers Now now.

    The Now Now is a great album.

  77. gimme shelter says:

    A lot of you assume that if Holland comes in, he will retain Gretz. It is just as likely he will sweep the broom and bring in his own team. Why do you assume he will hire Burke? Same reason. What I assume will be him bringing his own crew over from Detroit. His hangers-on, his yes men. He was with Detroit for a long time so he wants to work with who he is comfortable with.
    I hope he stays in Detroit. Who else is out there. Mark Hunter or Kif. With the OBC hanging around I do not think anybody wants the job.

  78. ashley says:

    I’m not a fan of Holland. I think he inherited a good hand and had success with it.

    I admit most of my dislike relates to a draft floor episode where he was laughing and mocking Chayka with his buddies at the Red Wings table (passing around his phone to show everyone what texts he was receiving) after Chayka took on Datsyuk’s contract in exchange for draft picks.

    The episode suggested two things: 1) A lack of maturity, 2) Average intellect. A smarter man would be more aware of his surroundings and the likelihood that cameras would be pointed at him and his crew after such a trade.

    Maybe that is unfair as it is a “single moment in time”. However, I don’t have anything else to go on, and it was a single moment with “considerable importance” that looked pretty damning in my eyes.

  79. Rebillled says:

    TSN saying Erikkson not happy with Van coach.

    Seguin for Erikkson (Chia)

    Lucic to Edmonton (Chia)

    Lucic for Erikkson because of Chia.

    This seems the most probable because Oilers.

  80. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Holland’s big mistake or perhaps trap was retiring so many players. The Wings success came from having the world’s best D, 2 HOF forwards and the ability to sign any UFa for cheap before this cap.

    It could have been ownership advising him to keep everyone. But to stay competitive successful teams have to be cold and trade aging players to restock the team and system after low draft picks over years.

    If the Oilers are lucky they will retire McDavid. Everyone else should be traded at some point. Almost no teams do this, and they fizzle out with their declining best players.

    GMs should not give tight movement clauses to any players except elite where it may be necessary. They should also try to have players at a good age for resigning or trading at contract end. Agents have the opposite agenda for sure, but a cagey GM should be able to get some benefit for the team. This is why Gilman interests me with his comments on doing contracts.

    I hope the new GM can free cap and ice a good team, and doesn’t run right at the cap and contract limit to be able to take advantage of good in season deals like Niederriter’s.

    Hoping, I surely don’t expect it.

  81. Ben says:

    Friedman say anything interesting?

  82. Scungilli Slushy says:

    ashley:
    I’m not a fan of Holland.I think he inherited a good hand and had success with it.

    I admit most of my dislike relates to a draft floor episode where he was laughing and mocking Chayka with his buddies at the Red Wings table (passing around his phone to show everyone what texts he was receiving) after Chayka took on Datsyuk’s contract in exchange for draft picks.

    The episode suggested two things: 1) A lack of maturity, 2) Average intellect.A smarter man would be more aware of his surroundings and the likelihood that cameras would be pointed at him and his crew after such a trade.

    Maybe that is unfair as it is a “single moment in time”.However, I don’t have anything else to go on, and it was a single moment with “considerable importance” that looked pretty damning in my eyes.

    No wonder the OBC wants him so bad.

  83. Nit64 says:

    Ben:
    Friedman say anything interesting?

    Does not know but thinks the wild card Holland decides next week if he wants in.

  84. Ben says:

    Nit64: Does not know but thinks the wild card Holland decides next week if he wants in.

    So here’s my guess.

    Pederson doesn’t seem to be the type to make shit up. So let’s say Holland coming over was done days ago.

    So what’s the hold up? I’m guessing the plan is to introduce a larger roster of hires, and corresponding moves of existing personnel.

    So the question is, who’s Ken bringing with him?

    I’m not at all thrilled by Holland, but if he comes with some fresh, innovative blood, I could be swayed.

  85. OriginalPouzar says:

    Lots of verbal about it being Holland’s job if he wants it and he will have full authority to fire anyone he wants and being in a home he want.

    If this happens, I hope Gretzky stays as one AGM.

    Of note, Holland has long ties to Todd Nelson – current coach of the Wings AHL affiliate in Grand Rapids.

    I know lots are against Holland – yup, bad cap management over the last while but decades of success prior to that. Perhaps, unlike Chiarelli, he can actually learn from prior mistakes?

  86. vinotintazo says:

    OriginalPouzar: Of note, Holland has long ties to Todd Nelson – current coach of the Wings AHL affiliate in Grand Rapids.

    “Former Grand Rapids Coach” Now an assistant with Dallas.

  87. commonfan29 says:

    I, for one, am willing to forgive Holland for his questionable moves with Detroit in the last few years.

    It had to have been pretty draining on the man to build a perennial powerhouse team in the mid-late 90’s, all while simultaneously turning in consistently great performances as Odo on DS9.

  88. leadfarmer says:

    Jethro Tull: The Now Now is a great album.

    When will then be now.

    Soon

  89. leadfarmer says:

    Rebillled:
    TSN saying Erikkson not happy with Van coach.

    Seguin for Erikkson (Chia)

    Lucic to Edmonton (Chia)

    Lucic for Erikkson because of Chia.

    This seems the most probable because Oilers.

    Yes. I think we trade our crappy unhappy player for their crappy unhappy player.
    We shed a year of 6mil cap at least
    But I think a happy Lucic outscores Erickson the rest of the contract.
    Chia what have you done to us

    After July 1 Erickson is owed only 3 mil a year for the last 3 years even though he has a 6mil cap hit. Maybe we can get someone to take him with a sweetener or flip him for someone with a similar sized contract in terms of actual money owed that is easier to buy out.

  90. Jethro Tull says:

    A quiet afternoon.

    So perhaps LT can finally shed some light on why he hates Smid.

  91. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    OmJo: Has any NHL GM ever traded a first and second round pick for an AHL defenceman?

    Has any NHL GM ever traded an elite LW for a top 4 D without said player demanding a trade?

    Has any NHL GM ever signed a KHL goaltender to a 3 year contract extension after half a season?

    Never underestimate the ineptitude of the Edmonton Oilers organization. If it hasn’t been done yet then they very likely could be the first.

    These trades all were done by one man. I blame the org for hiring him and regardless of input/influence from others, he pulled the trigger on all these deals. He had the final say.
    These are Chiarelli’s to own.

    Nicholson is responsible for the hiring of Chiarelli.

    So I also blame Nicholson and am less than overjoyed that Nicholson remains AND is leaning on Ken Holland for guidance. This process, for both optics and for finding the best candidates, should have been conducted using outside consultants to hire a POHO, as well as to come up with a list of 6-8 GM candidates for the POHO to choose from.

    So ultimately, no matter what, everything that has happened since he bought the team falls on Katz. He is the one who is wasting Connor’s prime years. This is his shit show.

  92. SVR says:

    Is Erickson worse than Lucic? I haven’t watched many Vancouver games so don’t know the answer. Hard to believe he could be.

  93. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    ashley:
    I’m not a fan of Holland.I think he inherited a good hand and had success with it.

    I admit most of my dislike relates to a draft floor episode where he was laughing and mocking Chayka with his buddies at the Red Wings table (passing around his phone to show everyone what texts he was receiving) after Chayka took on Datsyuk’s contract in exchange for draft picks.

    The episode suggested two things: 1) A lack of maturity, 2) Average intellect.A smarter man would be more aware of his surroundings and the likelihood that cameras would be pointed at him and his crew after such a trade.

    Maybe that is unfair as it is a “single moment in time”.However, I don’t have anything else to go on, and it was a single moment with “considerable importance” that looked pretty damning in my eyes.

    Are you sure he wasn’t watching Funny Cat Videos?

  94. Darth Tu says:

    commonfan29:
    I, for one, am willing to forgive Holland for his questionable moves with Detroit in the last few years.

    It had to have been pretty draining on the man to build a perennial powerhouse team in the mid-late 90’s, all while simultaneously turning in consistently great performances as Odo on DS9.

    But is Holland just dreaming of being Odo in the future, or did DS9 really happen? That’s the real question…

  95. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    Ben:
    Friedman say anything interesting?

    Didn’t name names, but said a GM told him that Oilers were shopping Lucic last summer, but were asking too much from this particular team. I lost some of the broadcast at that point, but he said they basically wanted a particular player and they said, “No way” or words to that effect.

  96. commonfan29 says:

    Jethro Tull: One thing I’m sure of is that the Oilers have never worried about optics.

    That’s not fair, remember that one time they had Lowe apologize for his tiered fan remarks. Made sure to have him pose in front of a picture of him lifting the Cup as a Ranger and everything.

    Oh, wait…

  97. Maoriduvpoojt says:

    Shit, too many MSMers reporting it will be Holland, likely to be officially announced on Monday or Tuesday.

  98. slopitch says:

    Jethro Tull: There’s there thing.When I bet on horses I use the racing form – a horses past results given the conditions.It’s not all blind luck.

    I should have qualified that in saying that when I bet on horses I go 1x a year and bet based on horse whose name I like best. Basically its random. Regarding Holland specifically I did provide 20 years of Hollands past results a few posts prior to my horse betting comment. The point Im trying to make is that I don’t think without a conversation with Holland as to why the last 5 years when south I don’t think any of us are equipped to make bold statements. And I’m not sure using past results (OHL GM and Leafs AGM who was either fired or let go) about Hunter is that predictive.

    Personally, I’m not sure I can separate franchise cycles (Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg retiring) from the last 5 years of Hollands results.

  99. PinkSocks says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    Lots of verbal about it being Holland’s job if he wants it and he will have full authority to fire anyone he wants and being in a home he want.

    If this happens, I hope Gretzky stays as one AGM.

    Of note, Holland has long ties to Todd Nelson – current coach of the Wings AHL affiliate in Grand Rapids.

    I know lots are against Holland – yup, bad cap management over the last while but decades of success prior to that.Perhaps, unlike Chiarelli, he can actually learn from prior mistakes?

    This is such a great catch OP. The Nelson connection could make it worth it on its own.

  100. Leroy Draisdale says:

    Maoriduvpoojt: FYI, Lidstrom retired in 2012.

    I remember this because RNH turned him inside out just after crossing Det’s blue in his rookie season.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-WpLHjXu7Do

    this clip brought me down a rabbit hole that ended up here:

    https://youtu.be/aJSVt9Nhl2o

    Mr. Lowe knows a thing or two about fighting as well!

  101. Jethro Tull says:

    slopitch: I should have qualified that in saying that when I bet on horses I go 1x a year and bet based on horse whose name I like best. Basically its random. Regarding Holland specifically I did provide 20 years of Hollands past results a few posts prior to my horse betting comment. The point Im trying to make is that I don’t think without a conversation with Holland as to why the last 5 years when south I don’t think any of us are equipped to make bold statements. And I’m not sure using past results (OHL GM and Leafs AGM who was either fired or let go) about Hunter is that predictive.

    Personally, I’m not sure I can separate franchise cycles (Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg retiring) from the last 5 years of Hollands results.

    OK, i gotchya! But if Holland was a horse, he might have been taken out to the back 40….

  102. Litke 94 says:

    Jethro Tull: OK, i gotchya!But if Holland was a horse, he might have been taken out to the back 40….

    You never know… the fastest standardbred racehorse in the history of Northlands Park in Edmonton (and will forever be the fastest due to its closure) was a gelding named Tajma Hall. He set the track record at the age of 10!

    10 years old as a racehorse is absolutely ancient when you consider that most track records are set at ages 3-5.

    Maybe Holland still has one last fast lap in him… 😉

    (P.S. – If you have 2 minutes, give the race a watch, it’s pretty great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ovoZ6Kkkw&t=3s

  103. knighttown says:

    My stated preference is for a POHO-based management team with a Krueger-type above a Hextall /Francis above a Gilman/Gretzky pair of AGM’s but that isn’t going to happen.

    Failing that, I’d absolutely love the hire of Holland and here’s why:

    1. The end of the OBC-
    This is a legend who will have full autonomy. There’s zero chance he takes the job if the OBC has power. His resume as a GM is such that they’ll be chasing him instead of him chasing the job in fact I’d bet if it’s him he’s POHO/GM. So yes, Holland’s recent history is patchy but the OBC’s resume is historically bad. It’s actually much the same reason I liked the Chiarelli hire. He’ll be his own man who can build his own department so as long as he’s not fucking terrible at it this should work.

    2. This closely parallels the Lamoriello hire in Toronto and NYI-
    Again, a true legend who almost no serious GM or AGM candidate would have much trouble being hired under especially because he’s probably not going to be the day-to-day guy (GM) for long. It leaves room for another serious hockey man to be brought in. Laurence Gilman is blocked in Toronto but would he accept an AGM-role here if there’s a good chance he could move up?

    3. The end of heavy hockey-
    For all of Holland’s flaws, understanding that the game is about skill/speed is not one of them. In fact he was the original skill/speed guy. There were some years where those Red Wing teams were on an island with fighting, hitting and puck-possession…just completely doing their own thing. And Detroit is a blue-collar town like Edmonton but he resisted the urge to build a blue-collar team.

    4. This aging curve thing MIGHT be nonsense-
    He’s definitely got some bad contracts but individually they aren’t terrible but rather, it’s the collection of them that’s terrible. But I can kind of understand why. When you’ve got two aging legends signed forever your bed is already made. You can and should rebuild but telling Datysuk and Zetterberg to wallow around in the lottery is tough to do. He tried to build a cluster of expensive talent to give Pavel and Z a few final runs. It was no doubt a terrible move and has set the team back but i’m not ready to consider it a character flaw ala “heavy hockey”. In my opinion he’ll surround 97/29 with a similar cluster. I could be wrong and he’ll bring in 30 year olds on 5 year terms but my wager would be that he won’t.

    5. His trade history-
    I poked around at Cap Friendly and I don’t see anything resembling the Brandon Manning or Taylor Hall trades. He generally seems to get good to great value.

    -Nyquist for 2 x 2nds
    -Jensen for a 2nd and Bowey (a legit young D)
    -Tatar for Veleno (1st) + 2nd + 3rd (amazing!)
    -Mrazek for a couple 2nds/3rd
    -Datsyuk salary dump shows creativity

    6. Draft-
    2018- Zadina, Veleno, Bergrren and McIssac are all 1st round talents. Great haul.
    2017- Rasmussan (ugh but 18 points in 62 games)
    2016- Chlowksi- seems like he can play (16 in 52 @ defense) and Hronek
    2015- Svechnikov (looks like a bad pick but many of us would have chosen the same)
    2014- Larkin at 15 (home run)
    2013- Mantha at 20, Bertuzzi at 58 and Janmark at 79 (3 legit NHL forwards with a combined 600 games played)
    2012- Frk (bust) but Athanasiou in the 3rd
    2011- Jurco (not great), Ouellet, Sproul, Quine (4 tweeners)
    2010- SHeahan, Jarnkrok, MRazek (good haul)

    He’s almost never picked in the top-10 but has still found plenty of NHLers. And this is ignoring his previous decade of legendary drafting.

    I’d be thrilled if we got Holland.

  104. texmex says:

    PinkSocks,

    And Datsyuk!!!!!! A kovalchuk type deal is Kenny’s first order if business

  105. Ben says:

    MR. HOLLAND IS A DOPE-US! Story at 11.

    Seriously though, if he can come in here and draft elite talent in the 6th and 7th rounds again, I’ll get on board.

    Reputation is a dismal currency.

  106. PinkSocks says:

    Regarding GM Holland. He isn’t my first choice, mine would have been Verbeek. Or McCrimmon. Or Misha Donskov. Or even Hunter. I don’t take much of his success in the past seriously. Even PC could have been successful with an unlimited cap. Putting everything else aside, his record over the past few years is the most important. The Wings have been bad; but, there are some very significant positive from Holland’s last few years.

    Drafting:

    2012 Draft – no first rounders, but 2 players over 100GP, one of which is a gem in Anathiasou.
    2013 Draft – Excellent, pulled Janmark, Bertuzzi, and Mantha
    2014 Draft – Struck gold with Larkin
    2015 Draft – lots of misses, jury still out (not for long) on Svechnikov
    2016 Draft – still pretty early but has 2 players that will most certainly eclipse 100 GP in Hronek and Cholowski. Despite the numbers this season I still like Givanni Smith in the 2nd round.
    2017 Draft – I wasn’t a fan of the Rasmussen selection but it could pan out. 11(!) picks for the Wings in 2017
    2018 Draft – Could be the draft to set up the Wings for a decade. 4 picks in the first 36, getting both Zadina and Veleno in the process

    Hollands bad teams are on a quick road to recovery. 2018 and 2019 drafts are giving the wings 8 picks in the first 2 rounds combined. Holland did not trade a bevy of these picks for the next Griffin Reinhart for a quick fix.

    Trading. He hoodwinked Chayka into taking Datsyuk’s dead contract. That alone gives me some confidence he can offload a certain #27. Maybe Lucic can live on Zetterberg island? Every trade in the past 2-3 years has just gathered more draft picks. Oilers need more of this. Got a nice prospect in Madison Bowey, took McPhee to the woodshed on the Tatar deal, and a decent enough return for Nyqvist. Find me a trade in the past 10 years Holland has unequivocally lost. I don’t see one, and in fact, I see quite a few he has clearly won by a large margin.

    I get that there are a few regrettable contracts – Dekeyser, Abdelkader, & Nielson. Dekeyser was a decent bet that didn’t work out, and the NTCs on Abdelkader and Helm show that if the Wings are out of the playoffs, their NTC is void. Pretty slick GMing IMO. Yzerman is set up quite nicely in Detroit.

    Forgive the wall of text, I just don’t get the apocalyptic view of Holland being a bad hire. Digging into the facts, he quite possibly is the best hire for the organization.

  107. PinkSocks says:

    PinkSocks,

    And none of the above even begins to address the non-OBC connection and how that will positively impact the organization.

  108. Litke 94 says:

    PinkSocks,

    Thank you for this.

  109. PinkSocks says:

    knighttown,

    Jeebus Gord great minds think alike.

  110. Jethro Tull says:

    PinkSocks: Forgive the wall of text, I just don’t get the apocalyptic view of Holland being a bad hire. Digging into the facts, he quite possibly is the best hire for the organization.

    Because it would be the Oilers treating the symptoms and not the cause. In today’s NHL you have to be business savvy AND understand where the game is going.

    He would be a good POHO with a younger GM in tandem.

  111. Jethro Tull says:

    PinkSocks:
    PinkSocks,

    And none of the above even begins to address the non-OBC connection and how that will positively impact the organization.

    Isn’t he Bob’s BFF from Hockey Canada?

  112. PinkSocks says:

    Jethro Tull: Because it would be the Oilers treating the symptoms and not the cause.In today’s NHL you have to be business savvy AND understand where the game is going.

    He would be a good POHO with a younger GM in tandem.

    And what about the last 3 years would suggest Holland does not understand where the game is going? Last year’s draft was all skill and speed. If you’re referring to his “gut analytics” statement, that was from 2014. Other than that, I fail to see any evidence that Holland is clueless in regards to “where the game is going”.

  113. PinkSocks says:

    Jethro Tull: Isn’t he Bob’s BFF from Hockey Canada?

    I wouldn’t know, but it’s irrelevant anyways. Holland, if he accepts, isn’t going to come into a new organization for the first time in 30 years to piss around with red wine and a bunch of ex-Oilers.

  114. PinkSocks says:

    ashley:
    I’m not a fan of Holland.I think he inherited a good hand and had success with it.

    I admit most of my dislike relates to a draft floor episode where he was laughing and mocking Chayka with his buddies at the Red Wings table (passing around his phone to show everyone what texts he was receiving) after Chayka took on Datsyuk’s contract in exchange for draft picks.

    The episode suggested two things: 1) A lack of maturity, 2) Average intellect.A smarter man would be more aware of his surroundings and the likelihood that cameras would be pointed at him and his crew after such a trade.

    1) Maybe
    2) Not at all. If a GM actually convinces another GM to just take a dead cap hit… literally for free, that’s pretty brilliant in my books and I’d say most in the same situation would be laughing from pure glee.

    An exact scenario would be if the new GM trades Lucic to Vancouver along with #8 in exchange for #10 and Vancouver’s 2nd round pick. The LT universe would celebrate beyond comprehension… and probably laugh.

  115. Rebillled says:

    leadfarmer,

    Something needs to happen with Milan.

    Something needs to happen in goal.

    and on the wing, our 1 injury crippling defence…

  116. Jethro Tull says:

    PinkSocks: And what about the last 3 years would suggest Holland does not understand where the game is going?Last year’s draft was all skill and speed.If you’re referring to his “gut analytics” statement, that was from 2014.Other than that, I fail to see any evidence that Holland is clueless in regards to “where the game is going”.

    Well, should we take a look at his play-off results since his HoFers retired?

    I cannot stress this enough: The rest of the league is employing younger, more analytically minded people. You can either accept this or be run over by it. Ken has had his day. By your logic, Hitchcock should stay on as coach because he’s done a good job in the past. But the game had clearly passed him.

    The Oilers have a tremendous opportunity to become an innovator, be at the forefront of the league as it changes. Or it can hire “guys who earned it” and “he knows players” people. I know which I’d choose, but then again, not my monkies, not my circus.

  117. OriginalPouzar says:

    Jethro Tull:
    LT, your opening paragraph is why Gillis wasn’t considered.7OV + was the ask for Edmonton.Gillis took the 9OV from NJ.Gillis either has a problem with the Oilers, or someone with the Oilers who is still here and won’t/can’t be fired.This then leads to the assumption that that person is part of the OBC.It follows that the OBC have more influence then they want us to believe.

    I may take a break if it’s Holland.The league is showing in huge neon letters which way the game is going and still the Oilers refuse to accept it.Decent analytics lead to decent scouting and decent game strategies.Ken thinks it’s all in the gut.

    Liking the colour much better!

    I’m thinking it was a “division-rival premium” as opposed to any issue with the Oilers or members of the organization.

    A break from being a fan because you don’t like their choice of new GM? Without even seeing a single move? To each their own – I’ll be excited to see his vision for moving forward and will analyze his moves going forward without regard to anything that’s happened in the past – its all irrelevant.

  118. SVR says:

    If Holland brings Tyler Wright with him, does this mean Bob Green is gone and is Wright an upgrade?

  119. OriginalPouzar says:

    Maoriduvpoojt:
    OP,

    Is Maksimov not an option for Bakersfield at all for the playoffs?Just wondering if perhaps you’ve heard anything about him being possibly available for Conference Finals.

    Is he rehabbing his injury (do you know what ails him?).

    I think he’s hurt – he missed the entire first round and game back for the 2nd but I think he was far from 100%. There would be no reason for him not to go this year to at least be with the team.

  120. slopitch says:

    Jethro Tull: ly and I don’t see anything resembling the Brandon Manning or Taylor Hall trades. He generally seems to get good to great

    Ha! I know but I havent heard of them interviewing anyone under 50 so we are talking an old boys game. McCrimmon was 58. 5 years aint dog years. I swear I blinked and 5 years passed!

  121. OriginalPouzar says:

    PaperKurtRussell:
    I watched the OHL final last night, and gotta say that Samurokov looks pretty freakin smooth. I’m no scout, but at this point I like him better all-around than Bouchard based on the handful of games I’ve seen. Future looks bright on D!

    Yup – from accounts, he was great defensively last night – tough to pick up an apple and finish plus 1 in a 7-2 loss.

    I’ve said numerous times recently, his high end potential is above that of Bouchard due to a wider range of skills – he’s got all the tools one needs to be a true 1D in the NHL. Of course, Bouchard is more of the “sure thing” and does have the higher pure offensive potential but Samorukov, while raw, has a broader skill set. It’ll be awesome to see how he develops as a pro player.

  122. Jethro Tull says:

    OriginalPouzar: I’m thinking it was a “division-rival premium” as opposed to any issue with the Oilers or members of the organization.

    A break from being a fan because you don’t like their choice of new GM? Without even seeing a single move? To each their own – I’ll be excited to see his vision for moving forward and will analyze his moves going forward without regard to anything that’s happened in the past – its all irrelevant.

    I’ll still follow them, but not as involved. I know lots of guys like that after the lockouts. But you know that if you don’t remember the past, you’ll be doomed to repeat it.

  123. PinkSocks says:

    Jethro Tull: Well, should we take a look at his play-off results since his HoFers retired?

    I cannot stress this enough:The rest of the league is employing younger, more analytically minded people.You can either accept this or be run over by it.Ken has had his day.By your logic, Hitchcock should stay on as coach because he’s done a good job in the past.But the game had clearly passed him.

    The Oilers have a tremendous opportunity to become an innovator, be at the forefront of the league as it changes. Or it can hire “guys who earned it” and “he knows players” people. I know which I’d choose, but then again, not my monkies, not my circus.

    I’m starting to think you did not really read my post. I actually said that I gave Holland zero credit for his successes, IE no cap, and that even Chiarelli could have been successful in a cap free world. And I have also consistently advocated for a younger, industry leading coach such as Rocky Thompson or Todd Nelson.

    My entire post was based off his RECENT positive attributes. I would be interested in your interpretation of Holland’s past ~5 years and what exactly he has done poorly. I outlined his excellent draft and trade record along with his ability to make bad contracts disappear.

    His HOFers retired. Of course the team was going to go through a rebuild. Just like every other successful franchise in any sport. The difference between Holland and the entire Oilers organization is that Holland actually has the Wings on a clear path back to success. Again, I have outlined this above. I’m more than willing to accept being incorrect about this, however, I have not seen factual evidence from you that Holland has had a poor record over the past 5 years considering the circumstances.

  124. OriginalPouzar says:

    Oilman99: Not sure you will get your wish unless Bouchard shows more in the time he is given, or injuries occur. The team is trying to win a playoff series, not put unproven players into compromising situations to see how they handle it.

    Not sure what more he can show than he has – in his hugely sheltered minutes, he’s killed them, torn the AHL apart.

    I agree, he is unproven and they are trying to win games so giving him more minutes is a risk. At the same time, while one could state “putting unproven players into compromising situations to see how they handle it” another could posit “developing the organization’s top prospect in the main development league and gaining information on where his game is at”

  125. Ivan says:

    Matty suggested Horcoff might come along with Holland😜

  126. ashley says:

    PinkSocks: 1) Maybe
    2) Not at all.If a GM actually convinces another GM to just take a dead cap hit… literally for free, that’s pretty brilliant in my books and I’d say most in the same situation would be laughing from pure glee.

    An exact scenario would be if the new GM trades Lucic to Vancouver along with #8 in exchange for #10 and Vancouver’s 2nd round pick.The LT universe would celebrate beyond comprehension… and probably laugh.

    Others have quite a different take on that trade than yours.

    https://www.nhlnumbers.com/2017/04/24/the-pavel-datsyuk-contract-dump-trade-was-actually-a-big-mistake-for-the-red-wings

  127. OriginalPouzar says:

    vinotintazo: “Former Grand Rapids Coach” Now an assistant with Dallas.

    Right – I knew that too.

    Thanks.

  128. New Improved Darkness says:

    Jethro Tull: It is tasty!

    It should be tasty:
    * 12 grams sugar from the buttermilk
    * 35 grams sugar from the honey
    * 67 grams sugar from the brown sugar

    Plus generous fat from the butter, egg, and buttermilk. Almost exactly 1/3 of the carb portion is sugar.

    This is basically identical to the buttermilk pancake recipe I cook regularly, but with half the flour changed to cornmeal, 33% more butter, and 2.5× more sweetener. Admittedly, my pancakes are sweetened to the lower end of the spectrum—all the better for MOAR maple syrup—but, wow, this cornbread confection arrives on your plate, batteries included.

    Also, this recipe is a weirdly low on salt—all the better to soak up more MOAR melted butter, I suspect. My pancakes are 0.8% salt as a baker’s ratio (2 gram salt : 255 grams flour). Standard bread (which is fairly high in salt) comes in at a 2.0% baker’s ratio; Europe is trying to move to 1.6% but this is about as low as you can go with standard yeasts before you faff up the yeast chemistry, to a detrimental end result.

    ———

    If you possess a modicum of self-control, maple syrup is an excellent sugar-intake reduction tool: you can frequently substitute 2 units of “vanilla” sugar with 1 unit of maple syrup and still come out ahead on net flavour. Like organic produce (if it really is organic, which you rarely know for certain): better tasting, fewer junk calories, but not cheaper.

    ———

    Buttermilk is key to this recipe. Ingredient from the Gods. I must have spent an entire afternoon one day trying to figure out the precise chemistry of baking powder, which is highly acid dependent. Turns out there are many kinds of BP, the modes of action are entirely distinct, and some kinds combine multiple modes of action into one product.

    I don’t have much use for Quebec’s hockey team, but a huge shout out for Lallemand, who have rescued me from more than one deep rabbit hole, when nothing else could:
    * A Guide to Chemical Leaveners
    * Working with Instant Yeast

    ———

    Figuring out from the above to just blend my refrigerated yeast into my dry, room-temperature floor for half an hour was a huge baking win when preparing slow-ferment doughs (refrigerated cold rise, two to five days).

    Word to the wise: The bacteria have all the flavour!

    The yeast mainly provides texture and body. Once the yeast become sufficiently active, the bacteria are pushed aside. The flour always contains bacteria to begin with. The key is to give the bacteria a couple of days to do their magic, and then the yeast push them aside for the final rise. Yeast is easily inhibited with cold temperatures, but with cold water if you don’t rehydrate carefully, your yeast spill their guts, contributing a slightly bitter off-flavour and changing the extensibility of your dough (not in a good way if you want huge oven spring, though it can aid in shaping pizza rounds).

    Less commonly explored: yeast is also easily inhibited with hot water. There’s a sweet spot where the yeast is inhibited, but the bacteria aren’t. Requires precise temperature control (accounting for the flour temperature, water temperature, temperature and thermal mass of mixing bowl, and environmental temperature). I’ve been playing with this lately, and I’ve already had some super good results. You can NOT do this “saw him good”. Use a thermometer + spreadsheet + a good pro scout. Even so—having already fully accounting for my momentous biceps (much like Kurosawa’s fencer from the Wood Cut school, mine is the equally stout Wooden Spoonhandle culinary tradition)—I always get an unaccounted temperature rise of 2–3 °F which I attribute to the enthalpy of mixing flour into water. (I’ve so far located two sources which promise the magic co-efficient for this term, both sources paywalled.)

    Without looking at my notes, I’ve been maintaining something on the order of a 92 °F post-mix environment over an hour of repeated stretch and folds, then plunged into the fridge with each 8 oz pizza round pre-divided into a separate container (otherwise it doesn’t cool fast enough, as I’ve eventually learned). One time I got a perfect volumetric doubling after four full nights in the fridge. Yeast simply does not want to go this slow; this was achieved on an initial addition of yeast that my 0.1 gram scale struggles to measure accurately, against a 1.5 kg final yield.

    This is an 80% hydration dough so sticky that if you squish the Charmin, you’ll be supporting your phone with your chin, while dialing 911 with your nose. That’s why stretch and fold, rather than a mechanical mixer. On a good day, I’ve had my cornicione fluff up 1.5″ high (in my electric oven, this requires a preheat to 500 °F, and a quick transfer from the lower pizza stone to the upper pizza stone at the 4 m mark). So fluffy, it was like eating a catcher’s mitt made out of freshly baked French-baguette cotton candy.

    Sadly, my best mechanical results and my best flavour results have yet to coincide: I’ve had good+great, and great+good, but never great+great. Sigh. One day you’ve got Nuge, Arcobello, Lander, and Gordon down the middle, the next day you’ve got Conner and Drai spanning the outfield manfully, while Nuge is reducing to bumming cigarettes from the shortstop—and nothing anywhere else. Balance! My pizza-perfection photograph is also in arrears.

    ———

    I have a personal theory that our next GM will be the five-time winner of the Ice Bucket Challenge. Hextall it is, then. He barely even needs to think squirrel, and he goes exothermic like baby Jack-Jack Incredible. Or perhaps, based on the above, we should audition by Sweat Lodge instead, because this rebuild is going to require a lot more staying power than instantly extirpating the endemic noble rot (C. Botrytis) with some lid-lifting fungus breath. I resolutely hold firm on the unpopular addition by addition method, mediated by a precision balance scale.

    So sayeth Mssr Fussycrust.

  129. Alpine says:

    Holland, Kretzky, Hunter.

    All three are mixed bags. We can’t say with any honesty which guy is more or less of dinosaur than the others.

    Holland used “gut analytics” a few years ago. Keith said Seguin wouldn’t pay the price in 2013. Hunter has guys like Steve Simmons as supporters, though I can’t find any quotes of him going against progressive thought in any way.

    Don Sweeney seemed clueless at first but found a way to get out of Chia’s cap mess with some savvy moves and some bad moves. The Bs are a contender largely because Keith was able to nab a few stars in the middle to late first round like Pastrnak and McAvoy and Debrusk, though he missed on some too. So just being Chia’s assistant shouldn’t preclude someone from success.

    Jim Rutherford had Carolina stuck in the mud for years after he won a Cup there. On his next go-around, he steals Phil Kessel and wins back-to-back Cups in Pittsburgh. Maybe there’s a lesson in there for those of us who think Holland might be finished.

    McPhee failed to get Washington to the promised land and pulled off the famous Erat-Forsberg self-heist. Last year, his expansion team made the Finals, and proved this season that they can look the part of contenders again even in spite that game 7 mess. Another example of a GM finding success in a different organization.

    With Hunter, not many negatives surround him other than hearsay. I think some of his success in London is flimsy due to some of the apparently odd ways they recruit players. In the NHL, his draft record is mixed but I see a lot of preference for skill in his picks. He was in Toronto for the removal of Phaneuf’s contract, so maybe he has some idea of how to move Lucic. He has hired analytics people in London and worked with similar types in Toronto.

    I’d pick Hunter out of the group. Jeff Veillette’s article about his Leafs’ tenure came to the conclusion that he can be a mediator between the traditional and analytical methods of player analysis and that’s probably the best we can hope for at this point.

  130. lchiles says:

    Jethro Tull,

    “7OV + was the ask for Edmonton. Gillis took the 9OV from NJ”

    I’m not sure if anyone else has addressed this but I am pretty sure that cost inflation is just a factor of being in the same division… I don’t know other specifics of Gillis’ relationship with Oilers management but I doubt this particular ask was due to a personal vendetta.

  131. PinkSocks says:

    ashley: Others have quite a different take on that trade than yours.

    https://www.nhlnumbers.com/2017/04/24/the-pavel-datsyuk-contract-dump-trade-was-actually-a-big-mistake-for-the-red-wings

    This article is pure conjecture. Trading #16 in exchange for #20 and #53 is good value based on history simply on its face. Add in removing the entirety (!) of Datsyuk’s contract and it’s larceny. This seems like an article written simply for the sake of playing devil’s advocate.

    So #16 + $7.5m cap space for #20 + #53. That’s a remarkable trade for Holland and the only reason Chayka doesn’t have egg on his face is because Chychrun was an excellent pick.

  132. Nit64 says:

    knighttown: My stated preference is for a POHO-based management team with a Krueger-type above a Hextall /Francis above a Gilman/Gretzky pair of AGM’s but that isn’t going to happen.

    ~ Was hoping for a Freddy Krueger/Hunter Lynx tandem with Jason as Goalie Coach. ~

  133. PinkSocks says:

    Nit64: ~ Was hoping for a Freddy Krueger/Hunter Lynx tandem with Jason as Goalie Coach. ~

    Koski wouldn’t last the preseason.

  134. Nit64 says:

    PinkSocks: Koski wouldn’t last the preseason.

    Exactly. Don’t like MacT’s chances either. It’s in our dreams that the Oil kill us.

  135. commonfan29 says:

    Ben: MR. HOLLAND IS A DOPE-US! Story at 11.

    GMKH: “What’s wrong Milan?”

    Lucic: “I don’t know Mr. Holland, I just can’t seem to get it together out there anymore. It’s like I forgot how to play or something.”

    GMKH: “Play the sunset.”

    Lucic: “What?”

    GMKH: “Play the sunset.”

    Lucic: “I’m not sure what that means, Mr. Holland, and I think it’s a lot more complicated than any one thi-”

    GMKH: “-The sunset.”

    Lucic: “Uh – can I waive my no-trade clause?”

  136. Bling says:

    Alpine,

    The one thing I’ll say with McPhee and Rutherford is that good GMs can and do make bad moves in isolation.

    When the pattern of moves is bad, that’s another story entirely (see Chia).

    I don’t know how you can interview Holland and discount what he’s done with their cap in the last 5 years. That is such a gigantic red flag. He very well may have re-stocked the team with draft picks, but take a look at their AHL team this past season:

    http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0026752019.html

    Their top 5 scorers were all 25 or over.

    We just crawled out of that kind of usage this season with Woodcroft, and now Burger Bob hires Holland? Phew.

  137. Jethro Tull says:

    New Improved Darkness,

    That’s awesome. We were thinking of making a sour dough starter. Luckily I have access to RTDs and a PID controller, so temp control shouldn’t be a problem.

    We also substitute in maple syrup and honey in as sweetener as much as we can, whether in bread or wine or cider.

  138. debacles says:

    Ben: So here’s my guess.

    Pederson doesn’t seem to be the type to make shit up. So let’s say Holland coming over was done days ago.

    So what’s the hold up? I’m guessing the plan is to introduce a larger roster of hires, and corresponding moves of existing personnel.

    So the question is, who’s Ken bringing with him?

    I’m not at all thrilled by Holland, but if he comes with some fresh, innovative blood, I could be swayed.

    I could be swayed, too…I could even be thrilled, if it was Holland bringing the right guy(s) with him. Could actually be a dream scenario: Holland as POHO (a Lou-type legend, immune from the OBC as others have mused), with Verbeek as GM. Holland gave him his head-office start in Detroit (as a scout).

    And if they then added Todd Nelson as HC? Love it!

  139. 719 says:

    PinkSocks,

    This was highway robbery for Holland.

    Hronek and Cholowski may have taken longer to matriculate, but last season Hronek scored 23 in 46 games and is a right shot D. Cholowski got 16 in 52. Both seem to be ready for a full time gig in the NHL next year.

    Chychrun’s ceiling is high, but he has been injured so much we haven’t seen it yet. Last season he got 20 points in 53 games. Yes he plays harder competition.

    Still who would you rather have?

    Count in the salary dump that was Pavel Datsyuk and this was a clear win for Detroit all around.

  140. Doug McLachlan says:

    So if the deal is one for one (ah, that has a nightmarish ring to it) would the Oilers (regardless of GM) swap:

    Milan Lucic (30 years old) with 4 more years at $6M
    243gp 39g 65pts over the last 3 seasons

    for

    Louie Eriksson (33 years old) with 3 more years at a buyout proof $6M
    196gp 33g 76pts over the last 3 seasons?

  141. leadfarmer says:

    Doug McLachlan:
    So if the deal is one for one (ah, that has a nightmarish ring to it) would the Oilers (regardless of GM) swap:

    Milan Lucic (30 years old) with 4 more years at $6M
    243gp 39g 65pts over the last 3 seasons

    for

    Louie Eriksson (33 years old) with 3 more years at a buyout proof $6M
    196gp 33g 76pts over the last 3 seasons?

    Well I made that up a few days ago but seems the world is running with it so sure why not

  142. Alpine says:

    Bling,

    It’s a concern but they’ve also graduated guys like Hronek and Cholowski in the last year and Bertuzzi, and Mantha the last few seasons. Zadina seems to have played enough and Rasmussen went almost directly to the big club.

    I suppose you could say they didn’t start the rebuild til the streak ended in 2017 so none of the last two years picks would be on that roster anyways, except for Zadina. But those two defensemen from 2016 are on their roster now and were seemingly developed properly with some AHL time.

    Rutherford’s pre-Pittsburgh run is pretty perplexing in hindsight. Missed the playoffs 7 of 8 years after 2006. Those are Oiler-like numbers.

  143. JOFA says:

    So let me get this straight. If Holland gets the job he may keep KG around to handle the pro side of things as per Spector? But he has full autonomy to hire and fire who he wants? Hahaha can’t write this shit folks. I can’t wait to hear all the KG lovers write about what a great idea this is and what an exceptional pro scouting record he has. Burn it to the ground and Piss on it!

  144. Doug McLachlan says:

    leadfarmer,

    Sorry, didn’t mean to copy your comment without attribution.

    In light of Erikksons’ comments to the Swedish paper (following on Lucic’s radio comments in Vancouver) the idea is clearly in the Zeitgeist now.

  145. JOFA says:

    What Spector means to say is that Holland would have some autonomy as long as he grooms KG for the GM position. It’s so fucking obvious folks. I can’t wait to hear the spin on keeping this idiot around. KG’s phenomenal amateur experience will transition seamlessly to the pro side.

  146. leadfarmer says:

    Doug McLachlan,

    You don’t need to credit me
    I just read the tea leaves

  147. JOFA says:

    It’s the same old…we’ll find a spot for you Keith. You’ve been a loyal soldier and an amazing contributor to the shit show. Choose a position. You have a job for life😊

  148. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    slopitch:
    If you pick Holland, you are hoping that his last 5 years are the anomaly or that he’s learned. If you pick, Hunter you are hoping he can be a good gm cuz he worked as an assistant for the leafs and ran the London Knights.

    I doubt anyone here knows enough. I dont. We are at the horse races picking our favourite based on very little info.

    That’s the truth Ruth

  149. Munny says:

    719,

    Well, the salary dump was really there to sign Stammer, which they didn’t do. They spent the dough (sorry, NID) on a bunch of role players that likely cost them a few draft spots in a re-building year.

  150. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    slopitch:
    If you pick Holland, you are hoping that his last 5 years are the anomaly or that he’s learned. If you pick, Hunter you are hoping he can be a good gm cuz he worked as an assistant for the leafs and ran the London Knights.

    I doubt anyone here knows enough. I dont. We are at the horse races picking our favourite based on very little info.

    I’ve had winning days at the track betting $10 win/place/show on the 4th favourite on every race.

    Went to the track 5 times, did that 4 times, came out ahead twice.

    When I lost it wasn’t terrible.

  151. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    Oilman99: Totally agree, the old saying “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks” says it all regarding Holland. This is a new NHL, fresh eyes with fresh ideas is the only way this team is going to get the train back on the tracks, but I’m afraid Bungling Bob is going to put this thing deeper in the ditch.

    My post was simply about why we always hope for the best.

    Not a fan of what Holland has done in the past 7 years or so but I have no clue as to which of their options would be best.

  152. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    GordieHoweHatTrick:
    When Two Worlds Collide: Win-Win / Lose-Lose / Luc-Lou …???

    Is it just a coincidence this week that Lucic publicly mulls over career retirement plans back in Vancouver and Ericksson publicly states he and the coach don’t get on so well?

    What does a reasonable Luc-Lou trade look like?

    Asking all you smarty-pants… 😉

    PS Rangers doing some rapid rebuilding over there (plus if Dallas beats St. Louis it looks like they have THREE FIRST ROUND PICKS this year, sweetness)…I like Leadfarmer’s suggestion of trying to grab Georgiev – if the price is right.

    Eriksson has one less year, but the same type of buyout proof contract

    Lucic has the better results over the last two years.

    I don’t do it.

  153. JimmyV1965 says:

    knighttown:
    My stated preference is for a POHO-based management team with a Krueger-type above a Hextall /Francis above a Gilman/Gretzky pair of AGM’s but that isn’t going to happen.

    Failing that, I’d absolutely love the hire of Holland and here’s why:

    1. The end of the OBC-
    This is a legend who will have full autonomy.There’s zero chance he takes the job if the OBC has power.His resume as a GM is such that they’ll be chasing him instead of him chasing the job in fact I’d bet if it’s him he’s POHO/GM.So yes, Holland’s recent history is patchy but the OBC’s resume is historically bad.It’s actually much the same reason I liked the Chiarelli hire.He’ll be his own man who can build his own department so as long as he’s not fucking terrible at it this should work.

    2. This closely parallels the Lamoriello hire in Toronto and NYI-
    Again, a true legend who almost no serious GM or AGM candidate would have much trouble being hired under especially because he’s probably not going to be the day-to-day guy (GM) for long.It leaves room for another serious hockey man to be brought in.Laurence Gilman is blocked in Toronto but would he accept an AGM-role here if there’s a good chance he could move up?

    3. The end of heavy hockey-
    For all of Holland’s flaws, understanding that the game is about skill/speed is not one of them.In fact he was the original skill/speed guy.There were some years where those Red Wing teams were on an island with fighting, hitting and puck-possession…just completely doing their own thing.And Detroit is a blue-collar town like Edmonton but he resisted the urge to build a blue-collar team.

    4. This aging curve thing MIGHT be nonsense-
    He’s definitely got some bad contracts but individually they aren’t terrible but rather, it’s the collection of them that’s terrible.But I can kind of understand why.When you’ve got two aging legends signed forever your bed is already made.You can and should rebuild but telling Datysuk and Zetterberg to wallow around in the lottery is tough to do.He tried to build a cluster of expensive talent to give Pavel and Z a few final runs.It was no doubt a terrible move and has set the team back but i’m not ready to consider it a character flaw ala “heavy hockey”.In my opinion he’ll surround 97/29 with a similar cluster.I could be wrong and he’ll bring in 30 year olds on 5 year terms but my wager would be that he won’t.

    5. His trade history-
    I poked around at Cap Friendly and I don’t see anything resembling the Brandon Manning or Taylor Hall trades.He generally seems to get good to great value.

    -Nyquist for 2 x 2nds
    -Jensen for a 2nd and Bowey (a legit young D)
    -Tatar for Veleno (1st) + 2nd + 3rd (amazing!)
    -Mrazek for a couple 2nds/3rd
    -Datsyuk salary dump shows creativity

    6. Draft-
    2018- Zadina, Veleno, Bergrren and McIssac are all 1st round talents.Great haul.
    2017- Rasmussan (ugh but 18 points in 62 games)
    2016- Chlowksi- seems like he can play (16 in 52 @ defense) and Hronek
    2015- Svechnikov (looks like a bad pick but many of us would have chosen the same)
    2014- Larkin at 15 (home run)
    2013- Mantha at 20, Bertuzzi at 58 and Janmark at 79 (3 legit NHL forwards with a combined 600 games played)
    2012- Frk (bust) but Athanasiou in the 3rd
    2011- Jurco (not great), Ouellet, Sproul, Quine (4 tweeners)
    2010- SHeahan, Jarnkrok, MRazek (good haul)

    He’s almost never picked in the top-10 but has still found plenty of NHLers.And this is ignoring his previous decade of legendary drafting.

    I’d be thrilled if we got Holland.

    The Red Wings knocked it out of the park at the draft last year. They got lucky too. How they got Veleno so late is mystifying. Funny thing is I think they went into the draft thinking dman dman dman, but switched gears when great forwards kept falling into their lap.

  154. Bulging Twine says:

    I too have been impressed with the value that Holland has acquired for pending UFA’s in recent seasons. Credit where due.

    However those trades are auctions with many suitors.
    They are much different than trades acquiring players.

    I would suggest that the Oilers are not in the trading players for picks (Auctions) stage but in the acquiring of players stage (I am a draft and develop guy and hate to trade picks).

    So looking at those types of trades in the most recent seasons the players that he acquired were:

    38 year old Marek Zidlicky for a 3rd
    36 year old Erik Cole who played 11 games and retired after the season for Janmark, Backman and a 2nd (Roope Hintz)(fleecing)
    33 year old David Legwand (who I remember could no longer skate) for Eaves, Jarnkrok, and a 2nd
    Kyle Quincey for a 1st

    Underwhelming

  155. oilersfan says:

    Jofa

    Do you realize that Kretzky has worked for the oilers for less than 3 years, and is responsible for two drafts, and drafted Samorukov in the third round?

    Also, according to stauffer, Gretzky was on the road when Chiarelli made those dumb trades before New Years?

    Why do you hate him sticking around so much? I don’t get the vitriol towards him.

    Hall was gone when he got here. Reinhart was here when he got here.

    Apparently Chiarelli did most stuff this year on his own and with Rich Sutter, who I’m sure will be fired…

    And for those of you who hate the holland potential signing… why? He won 3 cups!!

    He has 3 bad contracts on the books but they are nothing compare to lucic …

    I like Holland better than hunter who has accomplished
    Exactly nothing in the nhl…

  156. Doug McLachlan says:

    Woodguy v2.0: Eriksson has one less year, but the same type of buyout proof contract

    Lucic has the better results over the last two years.

    I don’t do it.

    Curious about the “better results over the last two years.”

    Counting stats are about even two years ago and in Eriksson’s favour this past season, no? Appreciable difference in possession numbers?

  157. leadfarmer says:

    Woodguy v2.0: Eriksson has one less year, but the same type of buyout proof contract

    Lucic has the better results over the last two years.

    I don’t do it.

    Lucic is the better player but he doesn’t want to be here and we don’t move him without taking something very ugly back. He has a shorter contract and costs less money and may be possible to flip him for someone with a more palatable buyout
    Without a doubt a happy Lucic will outplay Erickson the rest of their contract but we don’t get to have a happy Lucic
    Take Erickson’s shorter contract and flip him for someone with a more palatable buyout. Darling or someone else
    Lucic for Erickson is probably one of the few 1 for 1 possibilities that looks like we lose on paper. that’s why it’s the most likely

  158. Rebillled says:

    Doug McLachlan,

    leadfarmer,

    Woodguy v2.0,

    I’d rather Neal but I doubt Calgary would do it.
    Would you rather Erikkson or Kovalchuk? Yeesh..

  159. leadfarmer says:

    Honestly if Holland hunter and Gretzky are the options, Gretzky doesn’t sound too bad
    That’s probably what the OBC has had in mind

  160. Darth Tu says:

    Woodguy v2.0: Eriksson has one less year, but the same type of buyout proof contract

    Lucic has the better results over the last two years.

    I don’t do it.

    Agreed.

    What about Bobby Ryan? Slightly younger than Loui but he has a larger contract – but that contract ends a year earlier than both Ericksson and Lucic’s. Although, I’m not sure Ottawa would even move for Lucic, or that Lucic would waive to go to the Sens.

    To me it seems like the Ericksson/Lucic/Ryan situation is all different shades of the same problem. Classic examples of why you probably shouldn’t give tonnes of term to older players. The drop off is real.

  161. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    knighttown:
    My stated preference is for a POHO-based management team with a Krueger-type above a Hextall /Francis above a Gilman/Gretzky pair of AGM’s but that isn’t going to happen.

    Failing that, I’d absolutely love the hire of Holland and here’s why:

    1. The end of the OBC-
    This is a legend who will have full autonomy.There’s zero chance he takes the job if the OBC has power.His resume as a GM is such that they’ll be chasing him instead of him chasing the job in fact I’d bet if it’s him he’s POHO/GM.So yes, Holland’s recent history is patchy but the OBC’s resume is historically bad.It’s actually much the same reason I liked the Chiarelli hire.He’ll be his own man who can build his own department so as long as he’s not fucking terrible at it this should work.

    2. This closely parallels the Lamoriello hire in Toronto and NYI-
    Again, a true legend who almost no serious GM or AGM candidate would have much trouble being hired under especially because he’s probably not going to be the day-to-day guy (GM) for long.It leaves room for another serious hockey man to be brought in.Laurence Gilman is blocked in Toronto but would he accept an AGM-role here if there’s a good chance he could move up?

    3. The end of heavy hockey-
    For all of Holland’s flaws, understanding that the game is about skill/speed is not one of them.In fact he was the original skill/speed guy.There were some years where those Red Wing teams were on an island with fighting, hitting and puck-possession…just completely doing their own thing.And Detroit is a blue-collar town like Edmonton but he resisted the urge to build a blue-collar team.

    4. This aging curve thing MIGHT be nonsense-
    He’s definitely got some bad contracts but individually they aren’t terrible but rather, it’s the collection of them that’s terrible.But I can kind of understand why.When you’ve got two aging legends signed forever your bed is already made.You can and should rebuild but telling Datysuk and Zetterberg to wallow around in the lottery is tough to do.He tried to build a cluster of expensive talent to give Pavel and Z a few final runs.It was no doubt a terrible move and has set the team back but i’m not ready to consider it a character flaw ala “heavy hockey”.In my opinion he’ll surround 97/29 with a similar cluster.I could be wrong and he’ll bring in 30 year olds on 5 year terms but my wager would be that he won’t.

    5. His trade history-
    I poked around at Cap Friendly and I don’t see anything resembling the Brandon Manning or Taylor Hall trades.He generally seems to get good to great value.

    -Nyquist for 2 x 2nds
    -Jensen for a 2nd and Bowey (a legit young D)
    -Tatar for Veleno (1st) + 2nd + 3rd (amazing!)
    -Mrazek for a couple 2nds/3rd
    -Datsyuk salary dump shows creativity

    6. Draft-
    2018- Zadina, Veleno, Bergrren and McIssac are all 1st round talents.Great haul.
    2017- Rasmussan (ugh but 18 points in 62 games)
    2016- Chlowksi- seems like he can play (16 in 52 @ defense) and Hronek
    2015- Svechnikov (looks like a bad pick but many of us would have chosen the same)
    2014- Larkin at 15 (home run)
    2013- Mantha at 20, Bertuzzi at 58 and Janmark at 79 (3 legit NHL forwards with a combined 600 games played)
    2012- Frk (bust) but Athanasiou in the 3rd
    2011- Jurco (not great), Ouellet, Sproul, Quine (4 tweeners)
    2010- SHeahan, Jarnkrok, MRazek (good haul)

    He’s almost never picked in the top-10 but has still found plenty of NHLers.And this is ignoring his previous decade of legendary drafting.

    I’d be thrilled if we got Holland.

    Thanks KT.

    Nice summary.

  162. leadfarmer says:

    Rebillled:
    Doug McLachlan,

    leadfarmer,

    Woodguy v2.0,

    I’d rather Neal but I doubt Calgary would do it.
    Would you rather Erikkson or Kovalchuk? Yeesh..

    Kovalchuk but doubt he waves
    Only two years left

  163. Rebillled says:

    ah Kovalchuk has a NMC

  164. leadfarmer says:

    Darth Tu,

    Saves Melnyk money but doubt Lucic waves

  165. Lowetide says:

    GDT is up, includes the opening night roster for the Condors fall 2015.

  166. Woodguy v2.0 says:

    PinkSocks:
    Regarding GM Holland.He isn’t my first choice, mine would have been Verbeek.Or McCrimmon. Or Misha Donskov. Or even Hunter.I don’t take much of his success in the past seriously.Even PC could have been successful with an unlimited cap.Putting everything else aside, his record over the past few years is the most important.The Wings have been bad; but, there are some very significant positive from Holland’s last few years.

    Drafting:

    2012 Draft – no first rounders, but 2 players over 100GP, one of which is a gem in Anathiasou.
    2013 Draft – Excellent, pulled Janmark, Bertuzzi, and Mantha
    2014 Draft – Struck gold with Larkin
    2015 Draft – lots of misses, jury still out (not for long) on Svechnikov
    2016 Draft – still pretty early but has 2 players that will most certainly eclipse 100 GP in Hronek and Cholowski.Despite the numbers this season I still like Givanni Smith in the 2nd round.
    2017 Draft – I wasn’t a fan of the Rasmussen selection but it could pan out.11(!) picks for the Wings in 2017
    2018 Draft – Could be the draft to set up the Wings for a decade.4 picks in the first 36, getting both Zadina and Veleno in the process

    Hollands bad teams are on a quick road to recovery.2018 and 2019 drafts are giving the wings 8 picks in the first 2 rounds combined.Holland did not trade a bevy of these picks for the next Griffin Reinhart for a quick fix.

    Trading.He hoodwinked Chayka into taking Datsyuk’s dead contract.That alone gives me some confidence he can offload a certain #27.Maybe Lucic can live on Zetterberg island?Every trade in the past 2-3 years has just gathered more draft picks.Oilers need more of this.Got a nice prospect in Madison Bowey, took McPhee to the woodshed on the Tatar deal, and a decent enough return for Nyqvist.Find me a trade in the past 10 years Holland has unequivocally lost.I don’t see one, and in fact, I see quite a few he has clearly won by a large margin.

    I get that there are a few regrettable contracts – Dekeyser, Abdelkader, & Nielson.Dekeyser was a decent bet that didn’t work out, and the NTCs on Abdelkader and Helm show that if the Wings are out of the playoffs, their NTC is void.Pretty slick GMing IMO.Yzerman is set up quite nicely in Detroit.

    Forgive the wall of text, I just don’t get the apocalyptic view of Holland being a bad hire.Digging into the facts, he quite possibly is the best hire for the organization.

    Thanks for this.

    One minor quibble: he didn’t hoodwink ARI for Datsyuk as his contract was all cap and not actual $

    They moved up and got the guy they wanted (Chychrun, who I like)

    Holland does get points for getting Vitale and a 2nd in the deal for moving down just 4 spots for sure.

  167. Lowetide says:

    Jokes about suicide aren’t funny. Ever. It has been deleted and won’t be tolerated. Thanks.

  168. who says:

    Woodguy v2.0: Eriksson has one less year, but the same type of buyout proof contract

    Lucic has the better results over the last two years.

    I don’t do it.

    What if Vancouver threw in a sweetener?
    Wouldn’t it be hilarious if Edmonton actually got the sweetener in a Lucic trade?

  169. Nit64 says:

    Been 24 hours so here’s the context to Ferraro’s “bad look to it”. Accurate read on this fan base:

    “There’s no denying they wanted to talk to McCrimmon. There’s no denying they wanted to talk to Ken Holland. They’ve both pulled themselves out of it. So now you’re in a different ballpark. Is it Mark Hunter? Is it Sean Burke? It starts to have a bad look to it”

    “There has been so much toxicity around the Oilers for a decade that whoever they hire is not going to be the right guy: He won’t have enough experience, he’ll have too much experience; he’ll be too tall or he’ll be too short.”

    “If it wasn’t Kelly McCrimmon who’s coming from building out of nothing in Vegas I really don’t know who would be someone people would get behind right away”.

  170. JOFA says:

    Testing….testing 1,2,3

  171. JOFA says:

    Still on the air. Phew.

  172. Glovjuice says:

    Dustylegnd:
    Oiler Needs

    2 wingers that can score to play with McDavid, the fact we don’t have wingers that can put up numbers playing on McDavid’s wing tells you how shitty our depth of talent is

    2 wingers to play with Leon while he centers his own line…please see above

    Right shot D man that can also run a PP

    True #1 D man that can log 25 minutes per night and thrive doing it

    Bone fide #1 Tender

    2 additional puck moving D men

    2-3 forwards capable of killing penalties

    Where do I sign up to be the GM of this shit show??????????????????????

    This is a Stanley Cup level roster with what you list here. Good luck.

  173. Nit64 says:

    @levicki84
    If Ken Holland is named the GM of the @EdmontonOilers I think I’m taking a 2 year hiatus from the NHL then jumping fully on the Seattle expansion team.

    Of course if Seattle nabs Holland we’ll see some fans jumping from the Oil to a team that real GMs can work for. 😉

    Guy should play it safe and jump straight to Vegas and McPhee/McCrimmon.

  174. OriginalPouzar says:

    Still no word on the Condors’ lineup and, in particular, Marody – I’ve got a feeling he’s not going to be dressing and that will (would) be a big blow.

  175. OriginalPouzar says:

    leadfarmer: Well I made that up a few days ago but seems the world is running with it so sure why not

    That suggestion has been floating around for much much much longer than a few days.

  176. Glovjuice says:

    PaperKurtRussell:
    I watched the OHL final last night, and gotta say that Samurokov looks pretty freakin smooth. I’m no scout, but at this point I like him better all-around than Bouchard based on the handful of games I’ve seen. Future looks bright on D!

    He’s a future top pairing D. OP and I agree on this.

  177. OilFire says:

    New Improved Darkness,

    Sci-Hub is the place to get your paywalled enthalpies. Copies of nearly every journal article ever published. It makes me all kinds of angry when the publishing companies want to charge me for papers that I fucking wrote.

    Surprised you went hands over machine mixing for wet dough. I find it’s the wet ones I like the kitchen did as it avoids all that pulling dough off my hands at every stage.

    Best bread I’ve made recently is Paul Hollywoods walnut and blue cheese loaf from the BBC Masterclass companion series to The GBB. Maybe too much emphasis on the fillings than the crumb for a proper bread head like you, but the dough itself has a bit of zazz to it too.

  178. PinkSocks says:

    719:
    PinkSocks,

    This was highway robbery for Holland.

    Hronek and Cholowski may have taken longer to matriculate, but last season Hronek scored 23 in 46 games and is a right shot D.Cholowski got 16 in 52.Both seem to be ready for a full time gig in the NHL next year.

    Chychrun’s ceiling is high, but he has been injured so much we haven’t seen it yet.Last season he got 20 points in 53 games.Yes he plays harder competition.

    Still who would you rather have?

    Count in the salary dump that was Pavel Datsyuk and this was a clear win for Detroit all around.

    Agreed on all points

  179. OriginalPouzar says:

    Sounds like Verbeek will indeed be joining Yzerman in Detroit – as per McKenzie and the Bobcast.

  180. Oil2Oilers says:

    New Improved Darkness,

    I tend towards more fluid concoctions of grain, yeast and water, but strongly believe that the principal’s remain the same with less damp enterprises.

    May I suggest you check the water. It strongly influences how yeast and grain’s interact. Hard Edmonton water is ideal for blonder beers, where as Kelowna’s weather might not scream Ireland but the water does. Seriously folks skip the wine tours next time you visit, crawl the Brew pubs in the Northend for Stouts and Porter’s.

    Yankees swear the New York tap is the key to pizza dough perfection, I might look to Napoli. Give or take a garbage strike.

    No one can out do the English for persnickety persnicketyness in all things persnickety. The beardy werdies of CAMRA and associates call it Burtonization http://finnhillbrewing.blogspot.com/2011/01/how-to-burtonize-your-brewing-water.html?m=1

    Distillers now flirt with enzymes to excite there yeasts to feast of feeding, but it is like black box fancy stats right now – only the Japanese seems to have a reliable handle on it.

  181. OriginalPouzar says:

    Glovjuice: He’s a future top pairing D. OP and I agree on this.

    I am far from certain that he will get there but believe he has the skill-set for it – development, development, development.

  182. Ryan says:

    Ryan: My belief is that they will announce (via someone like Stauffer) that they made a hard run at hiring Holland, he declined, so they went with what they’ll refer to as the next best guy on their list. Kretzky.

    Fits the narrative so far.

    Why all this noise about the job being Holland’s if he wants it?

    If he wanted it, he’d have been hired already.

    Now, they can play up that McCrimmon chose to continue building in Vegas, Holland declined a hard push, so Kretzky it is.

  183. Glovjuice says:

    ashley:
    I’m not a fan of Holland.I think he inherited a good hand and had success with it.

    I admit most of my dislike relates to a draft floor episode where he was laughing and mocking Chayka with his buddies at the Red Wings table (passing around his phone to show everyone what texts he was receiving) after Chayka took on Datsyuk’s contract in exchange for draft picks.

    The episode suggested two things: 1) A lack of maturity, 2) Average intellect.A smarter man would be more aware of his surroundings and the likelihood that cameras would be pointed at him and his crew after such a trade.

    Maybe that is unfair as it is a “single moment in time”.However, I don’t have anything else to go on, and it was a single moment with “considerable importance” that looked pretty damning in my eyes.

    This is a spectacular post. IQ is IQ, what can I say.

  184. Glovjuice says:

    Scungilli Slushy:
    Holland’s big mistake or perhaps trap was retiring so many players. The Wings success came from having the world’s best D, 2 HOF forwards and the ability to sign any UFa for cheap before this cap.

    It could have been ownership advising him to keep everyone. But to stay competitive successful teams have to be cold and trade aging players to restock the team and system after low draft picks over years.

    If the Oilers are lucky they will retire McDavid. Everyone else should be traded at some point. Almost no teams do this, and they fizzle out with their declining best players.

    GMs should not give tight movement clauses to any players except elite where it may be necessary. They should also try to have players at a good age for resigning or trading at contract end. Agents have the opposite agenda for sure, but a cagey GM should be able to get some benefit for the team. This is why Gilman interests me with his comments on doing contracts.

    I hope the new GM can free cap and ice a good team, and doesn’t run right at the cap and contract limit to be able to take advantage of good in season deals like Niederriter’s.

    Hoping, I surely don’t expect it.

    So, he should have traded an aging worlds best D or two HHOF players ?

  185. Munny says:

    Oilers “circling back” to Holland is a curious thing.

    As Spector alludes to there must’ve been a demand there the Oilers caved to. “Autonomy ” is of course the word of the day.

    Which implies they originally tried to hire him without giving him the right to fire and hire.

    Which in turn leads on to wonder what were the terms of the Chiarelli hiring/regime?

    Who is holding those reins?

    I have to think it is Katz and that might’ve been the reason for the initial Holland holdout as he likely wasn’t present for the interview.

    We can expect, if Holland comes in — and since the Oilers now seem willing to do anything to make it happen, that seems likely — he will be both POHO and GM, will get paid like he holds both jobs, and will be shaking up the office, in particular the pro-scouting department.

    I think, like LT, that goaltending will be a big concern for KH. If we had a decent save percentage this year we probably would’ve been a playoff team. But that’s one area where a GM has decent options.

    But damn I hope he has joined the new millennium when it come to data and hockey.

  186. Nit64 says:

    Or Holland decided his new senior advisor role was no fun.

  187. gimme shelter says:

    So the Condors lost last nite. I suggest swapping goaltenders after 2nd OT but then i am not a coach.
    Let everybody be tired together and lose the game.
    Holland is not my choice as GM. Might be flim-flam to get Kif the job. Dark horse candidate. Obviously Mark Spector. The way he is kissing up to Ken Holland he would work nicely with the OBC.

  188. Taro Tsujimoto says:

    slopitch:
    Why do people think Holland will operate any differently than he has in the past?

    Which past are we referring to? Because most of that past is pretty good.

    In 1994 he was made AGM.

    1995 1st in div, lost final
    1996 1st in div, lost conf final
    1997 2nd in div, won cup

    In 1997 he was made GM.

    1998 2nd in div, won cup
    1999 1st in div, lost conf final
    2000 2nd in div, lost conf semi final
    2001 1st in div, lost conf quater final
    2002 1st in div, won cup
    2003 1st in div, lost first round, Fedorov leaves
    2004 1st in div, lost conf semi
    2006 1st in league by a lot, lost first round, Yzerman retires
    2007 1st in div, lost first round, Yzerman being
    2008 1st in div, lost first round
    2009 1st in div, lost first round, Lidstrom retires
    2010 2nd in div, lost conf semi
    2011 3rd in div, lost first round
    2012 1st in div, lost conf semi
    2013 3rd in div, lost conf semi
    2014 4th in div, lost first round
    2015 3rd in div, lost first round
    2016 3rd in div, lost first round, Datsyuk retires
    garbage since – Zetterberg retires

    Compare that to the Oilers lol.

    Moral of the story its easy to build a team with a star dman – it started to unravel when Listrom left. Its fair to say the game changed and I dont think he adjusted well to the cap. But a big part of that imo is trying to win with stars in the last years of their career. Lets see how Pittsburgh does when Crosby retires or how Washington does when Ovie lets go. Id bet anyone here that no GM rebuilds in the final years of their careers. Would Zetterberg and Datskuk be the same? Both are likely hall of famers.

    Holland has employed some of the best coaches in the game – Bowman for 8 years and then Babcock for a few. Is Babs overrated? Maybe. But he’s prob a top 10 coach in the NHL today. With the termoil in Toronto, I wouldnt be stunned to see Babs coach with TO paying 50%.

    If my options are Hunter, KG and Holland. I take Holland and accept the risk that his last 5 years are the norm. And then hope that pink slips are handed out and the new guys can come in with a solid mentor. Id maybe even hope KG sticks around. The farm looks ok they need some continuity. The good candidates have said no (mostly, did they interview Hextall?) and Holland is a safe choice imo. Hunter doesnt do it for me and Kretzky hasnt done anything to earn a promotion.

    Holland also has worked with a great owner. Perhaps some of that could wear of on Mr Katz.

    Just for the record: the Wings lost in the conference finals in ’07, won the Cup in ’08, lost in the Cup finals in ’09. And Lidstrom retired in 2012.

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