A Big Red Beacon, a Flag and a Man on the Rail

by Lowetide
Photo treatment by Darcy McLeod

There are several stories worth keeping in mind as we approach Oilers training camp. Paying attention to detail, as Mr. Young did by offering a clear description of the white boat coming up the river, can enhance the experience. The events are unfolding as they should and as the Desiderata intended, but it’s always good to have an idea of what the play is about before the curtain rises.

THE ATHLETIC!

  • New Lowetide: What should the Oilers expect from Cody Ceci in his first season?
  • Lowetide: Why Oilers can expect an offensive rebound from Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
  • Lowetide: Projecting the 2021-22 Edmonton Oilers opening night lineup
  • Lowetide: Why Oilers fans should be excited about the progress of Maxim Berezkin
  • Lowetide: What should Oilers expect from Duncan Keith in his first season?
  • Lowetide: Did the Oilers find the new Fernando Pisani when signing Derek Ryan?
  • Jonathan Willis: Tyler Benson, Devin Shore and the 4-year difference between a prospect and a has-been
  • Lowetide: What should Oilers fans expect from Zach Hyman in his first season?
  • Lowetide: Dylan Holloway headlines new arrivals for Bakersfield Condors in 2021-22
  • Lowetide: Why Oilers fans should expect more trades and a deep playoff run this season
  • Lowetide: How much playing time will Evan Bouchard get with the Oilers this coming season?
  • Lowetide: What are reasonable expectations for the 2021-22 Oilers?
  • Jonathan Willis: A resurgent Zack Kassian could be an important part of the Oilers’ scoring
  • Lowetide: Oilers sign Darnell Nurse to a massive 8-year contract extension
  • Lowetide: How many goals will Jesse Puljujarvi score for the Oilers next season?
  • Lowetide: What are Oilers’ ideal defence pairings for 2021-22?
  • Jonathan Willis: Oilers 2021-22 depth chart
  • DNB: ‘Ultimate competitor’ Zach Hyman signs with Oilers
  • Lowetide: Oilers top 20 prospects, summer 2021

NHL-NHLPA AGREEMENT

Michael Russo at The Athletic has the story. The impact could be massive. The short story is this: If a player isn’t vaccinated, and is unable to take part in team activities (practice, games, flights), then he can be suspended without pay by the team, who will replace him. There are some exceptions, but it’s very restrictive. That’s a massive change in the weather. I can see veterans opting out of the season, they have until next month to decide.

We don’t know the names of unvaccinated players and my reading is the punishment is harsh for those players who test positive. I have questions. What if a goalie is the player in question? Should teams consider carrying three goaltenders? What if a team makes a roster decision based on a player not being vaccinated? How does that work?

We’re two weeks away from camp. Plenty of time, he lied.

ROOKIES FOR A DECADE

Here are the names of rookies (with games) for each year. Players in yellow went right to the NHL, players in light blue spent some time in the minors:

  • 2011-12: Ryan Nugent-Hopkins (68); Anton Lander (56); Colten Teubert (24); Teemu Hartikainen (17); Ryan O’Marra (7); Chris VandeVelde (5); Alex Plante (3); Phil Cornet (2); Milan Kytnar (1).
  • 2012-13: Justin Schultz (48); Nail Yakupov (48); Chris VandeVelde (11); Mark Arcobello (1).
  • 2013-14: Luke Gazdic (67); Martin Marincin (44); Mark Arcobello (41); Oscar Klefbom (17); Tyler Pitlick (10); Taylor Fedun (4); Brad Hunt (3).
  • 2014-15: Oscar Klefbom (60); Leon Draisaitl (37); Tyler Pitlick (17); Iiro Pakarinen (17); Brandon Davidson (12); Andrew Miller (9); Jordan Oesterle (6); David Musil (4); Darnell Nurse (2); Bogdan Yakimov (1); Curtis Hamilton (1); Laurent Brossoit (1); Tyler Bunz (1).
  • 2015-16: Darnell Nurse (69); Iiro Pakarinen (63); Brandon Davidson (51); Connor McDavid (45); Griffin Reinhart (29); Adam Clendening (20); Jordan Oesterle (17); Jujhar Khaira (15); Anton Slepyshev (11); Laurent Brossoit (5).
  • 2016-17: Matt Benning (62); Drake Caggiula (60); Anton Slepyshev (41); Jesse Puljujarvi (28), Jujhar Khaira (10); Laurent Brossoit (8); Dillon Simpson (3).
  • 2017-18: Ethan Bear (18); Pontus Aberg (16); Kailer Yamamoto (9); Nathan Walker (2); Keegan Lowe (2).
  • 2018-19: Colby Cave (33); Josh Currie (21); Kailer Yamamoto (17); Caleb Jones (17); Joe Gambardella (15); Evan Bouchard (7); Cooper Marody (6); Patrick Russell (6), Valentin Zykov (5).
  • 2019-20: Ethan Bear (71); Caleb Jones (43); Joel Persson (13); William Lagesson (8); Tyler Benson (7).
  • 2020-21: William Lagesson (19); Evan Bouchard (14); Ryan McLeod (10); Stuart Skinner (1).

That’s a mammoth number of rookies in a decade, and it’s amazing to see how many players didn’t see Edmonton’s farm club before playing for the Oilers. Oh sure, Nuge, Yak, Leon, McDavid were high picks, but Anton Lander went straight to the NHL, same year.

There are some bad decisions there, many of these players could have used more time in the minors. Luke Gazdic played in the minors for the Dallas Stars organization, but came right to the NHL via waivers. Griffin Reinhart was a disconnect, general manager Peter Chiarelli believing he was NHL-ready and coach Todd McLellan believing something else again. Identical to the Jesse Puljujarvi situation one year later.

Lots of waivers now that I look through all the names, Chiarelli didn’t have any money left for skill wingers so brought in Aberg, Walker, Zykov in an effort to increase the talent pool. That’s an addled list.

KAILER YAMAMOTO

A tremendous surge of Yamamoto offer sheet talk online yesterday, I’m happy because it shows people recognize the value of Edmonton’s drafting him No. 22 overall. It was an earth shattering pick for the organization, Oilers history to that point in time showed extreme bias about taking smaller forwards in the first round, this was a watershed selection. What we don’t know is the value Holland places on this player.

I had looked forward to seeing him play for several years in Edmonton, but as mentioned on this blog all summer, players drafted before the Holland-Wright group arrived may be less secure than the group chosen after their arrival. It’s human nature. If he goes via offer sheet, it will be a damn shame but NHL teams should be looking at these opportunities more closely.

THE PRICE OF NONCONFORMANCE

Many years ago (this is the 1980’s) a man from MIT flew into Regina and addressed the staff of the radio station I worked for about two important facts: The price of conformance, and the price of nonconformance.

He placed a price on every error. In radio, revisions to commercial scripts means the creative and production departments (as well as voice talent) forces a do-over from the original commercial. MIT man put a price on all of that, including the cost of studio time, and called it the price of nonconformance. He was with us for a week, and I believe the final total from all departments was a dollar total that approached $1 trillion dollars.

Now, about 10 minutes into the week, my friend Dave Bellerive said “how much is the company spending to tell us to do our damn jobs properly?” and that too is fair.

However, there is a point to be made. Yamamoto’s exposure, Benson’s development, all of the bets made this summer and in the summers this past decade.

How many transactions could be described as “do it right the first time?” and how many are bleeding talent and productivity? That’s a question for all NHL teams, and specifically the Canadian clubs. How many Canadian teams are truly efficient?

I sometimes wonder if that fellow from MIT would be an effective wakeup call for hockey ownership. What is the cost of drafting Tyler Benson, developing him, then using a two-week audition as a pass/fail? Is that efficient?

It’s an interesting question.

LOWDOWN WITH LOWETIDE

At 10 this morning we kickstart the long weekend, TSN1260. Steve Lansky from Inside the Truck Podcast will join us to talk about the Canada-Honduras World Cup qualifier last night, and Matthew Iwanyk will preview the NHL weekend at 11. Lots of hockey talk, your comments welcome at 10-1260 or @Lowetide on twitter. Long weekend on the way!

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Harpers Hair

Likely only 2 with Jesse being a long shot.

I’ve been surveying scores of projected rosters today and not one mentioned Nurse.

The Finnish roster is awash in Dallas Stars.

OriginalPouzar

Puljujarvi isn’t a lock but he’s closer to it than a longshot – wild stuff.

leadfarmer

Long shot eh?
the people you “surveyed” have him on the roster

leadfarmer

And by surveyed we all know HH just went to the athletic and claimed their work as if he actually did some of his own research

OriginalPouzar

The Athletic, that has Jesse on the Finnish team.

I wonder, has Jesse had any success playing internationally for Finland?

Material Elvis

Are you implying that HH is biased against the Oilers?!

OriginalPouzar

I dunno – its tough to argue against P. Danault being a star as 2C and Alex Turcotte helping him and Byfield over come McDavid, Drai and Nuge for center depth.

I mean, the latter two don’t have any NHL goals between them but they do have an assist and, unlikely everyone else, Kopitar is getting younger at 34.

jp

Kopitar is getting younger at 34

It’s potentially notable that the Oilers ‘3C’ in this scenario has scored pretty similarly to the Kings 1C over the past few years.

RNH — 199-66-99-165 0.83Pts/game
Kopitar 207-56-116-172 0.83Pts/game

That Kings 1C is also the only centre on their roster who’s scored more than 13 goals in a season (seems 3C and 4C have actually zero, which is the same as McLeod).

It’s probably meaningless for the upcoming season, but the Oilers have 4 centers who’ve scored at least 13 in a year.

Well, actually 6 if you count Shore and Turris, but that’s probably not relevant to the current conversation.

Redbird62

So since a score is 20, and you have surveyed scores of them (ie. multiples of a score) you have apparently surveyed at least 40 projected rosters for the Canadian Olympic team. Name them, and don’t count random posts from fans on hockey blogs.

jtblack

Great stuff as usual. 2021 / 22 is going to be interesting …..
1) Oilers are Good
2) Olympics
3) Junior / development leagues back

OriginalPouzar

Full AHL season as well!

Kinger_Oil.redux

– Hi, one of the most exciting games in a must win I’ve ever seen. GO FUCKING JAYS WIN OUT THE SEASON

OriginalPouzar

Gregor is reporting that Holloway is still recovering from wrist surgery and he may not participate in rookie camp (no decision made).

That is certainly disappointing news and a bit alarming that he’s still recovering. Seems the org wasn’t quite as honest as they could have been with the severity of the injury, I mean, there was some indication he could get in to games for the Condors and clearly that wasn’t a real option back in the spring.

Here is hoping that this isn’t something that lingers.

Reja

There goes my prediction of him making the team if he needs another surgery he’s missing half a year. This is disappointing news usually you heal quick when your young.

OriginalPouzar

Whoa, nothing was said about another surgery as a potential, not him not being there for day 1 of main camp (or even definitely not lacing up for rookie camp).

It does seem like the original injury (and surgery) were likely more severe that the college of the oilers indicated. Who knows if playing through it, had an impact, I have no idea, but I’m fairly certain it didn’t help.

leadfarmer

A wrist surgery not recovered in 6 months pointing that way

Todd Macallan

Am I wrong in thinking he injured his wrist at the WJC then came back to full strength in the NCAA, only to then have his thumb broken on a slash that required surgery? Am I missing a different wrist injury here?

OriginalPouzar

Actually, I think you are right – it was a thumb that shut his NCAA playoffs down. Gregor did say “recovering from wrist surgery” – maybe he mistyped (or misremembered)?

Todd Macallan

My first thought was Gregor made an error of typing or memory there.

€√¥£€^$

Yes, you are incorrect. He injured it during the Conference playoff game VS Penn State, this was just before the NCAA tournament. He went for a hit and injured his wrist and thumb on the boards somehow. He later got slashed on the hand and it buggered up his thumb even more.

He talked about this when he was in Bakersfield, he spoke of it on with either Stauffer or Gregor…

Harpers Hair

Looks like the best centre depth in hockey is down a quart.

OriginalPouzar

Yup, the 6C-9C on that depth chart, a player that massively outproduced the 4C listed on the King’s depth chart in the D+1 years in the NCAA, may miss rookie camp.

Of course, this player was unlikely to be needed at the NHL level, unlike the listed King’s 4C who is to compete in the NHL against the likes of McDavid and Drai.

Harpers Hair

Rocky Thompson out as assistant coach in San Jose.

He has a medical exemption for vaccination but is unable to fulfil his duties under protocols.

Fuhrious

Interesting, he’d have to have some very specific allergies to be medically unable to take the any of the 4 approved vaccines. I’m sure he’ll just say exactly what prevents him from taking it to help get the word out for any others with the same condition. Must be something pretty rare as I haven’t heard of anything like it yet.

Last edited 23 days ago by Fuhrious
judgedrude

I find the RFA offer sheet compensation below value…a second round draft pick for a $4M RFA contract…good grief.

Would anyone here trade Yamo for a 2nd round? No
Would anyone here sign Yamo for $4M/year? No

Seattle might want a local talent, and a little overpay might be worth it to continue to generate excitement. At $2.5M, I would think that the Oilers match. At $4M, they don’t.

So, where is the over/under, and what is the price of nonconformance for Yamo? I would think anything over $3M, and the Oilers take a second rounder, and bet on the youngins.

ChupaCabra

Depends on the term, no?

judgedrude

Would depend on term, but I was thinking of a 1 year cap squeeze to pry him from EDM (similar to Carolina). You keep him at $3M x 7, but Yamo would never sign that.

OriginalPouzar

With the rise in salaries over the last decade or so, the compensation limits moved so high that, yes, in cases like this, a massive over-pay offer sheet (that over-values the player) would lead to compensation that under-values the player.

In that way, sure, the Oilers are at risk.

At the same time, I remain unconcerned and confident the deal will get done with the Oilers.

With respect to Seattle, in particular, (a) Francis is clearly not in to committing to cap that overvalues a player (given his draft day strategy) and (b) Yamamoto would not be a local talent – Spokane is further from Seattle than Calgary is from Edmonton).

Reja

I believe that you don’t gamble but Yamo is going to end up in his home state and it’s going to happen sooner than you think.

kelvjn

If anybody pay Yamamoto above 3M, chances is good that he will be back in the market as a salary dump pretty soon similar to Jake Debrusk. Nothing against the player, but all it take is one so-so season (after the new player shine wear off) the cap hit will become an eye sore.

Last edited 23 days ago by kelvjn
OriginalPouzar

I think its entirely reasonable that Yamamoto will provide close to $3M of value this coming season, or at least close enough thereto to warrant a QO in that range. No sure think but definitely possible/likely.

Harpers Hair

Reuters

@Reuters
·
17m

Whisky maker Gordon & MacPhail unveiled what it says is the world’s oldest single malt Scotch whisky to be bottled, and is estimated to sell for over $110,000 when it goes up for auction at Sotheby’s

SoCaloil

Thank you for contributing this vital intel!
I’m sure many here are in the market for 100k Whiskey

Harpers Hair

You might be surprised.

ChupaCabra

Don’t criticize. This is the most sensible post he’s made in weeks.

31saves

Very much hoping that this doesn’t mean that Cap Friendly will ever go down. That site is a blessing to the armchair GM.

Harpers Hair

Sounds like it’s going to keep operating.

OriginalPouzar

It is indeed an amazing resource.

I would just want to throw PuckPedia out there as just as amazing a resource (and, with connections, the founder is a good kid from West Edmonton – now lives in Cali – our parents sit close at schul).

DevilsLettuce

So they want us to cheer for Canada at the Olympics while they hold our citizens hostage. Kinda disgusting tbh.

PennersPancakes

In a very half serious way I wonder if they can use the threat of Team Canada destroying China 100-0 on home ice as a bargaining chip for anything. Image seems to be very important for that government.

OriginalPouzar

I remain highly confident that Yamamoto will sign a short term/low money deal with the Oilers before camp. 1-2 years in the $1.5M range (give or take depending on term).

At this point, I am not concerned about a “hold out”/rift with the team (nor an offer sheet).

At this point, this remains business as usual.

If we get in to mid-September, and rookie camp, etc. starts and the deal isn’t done, I will get more concerned.

OriginalPouzar

So happy about the NHL players going to the Olympics.

When was the last time we had a real best on best international tournament?

I know there are politics/human rights issues, I know the issues with the Olympics in general and the IOC and corruption. I know all about that stuff but, I don’t care, I’m selfish, I love the Olympics in general and I can’t wait for the hockey!

Bohologo

If you know about Uyghur concentration camps in Xinjiang but don’t care, I’m not entirely convinced that you know all about that stuff.

DevilsLettuce

I have serious concerns about any Canadian athlete’s safety that attends the Olympics in Beijing.

Difficult to comprehend how you can celebrate the Olympic games in a country that’s taking away more and more human rights every day the sun rises.

dustrock

I think the problem is that if you start digging into sports at any level, there’s going to be a level of greed, corruption, cheating that is unpalatable. The IOC, FIFA, any number of pro sports owners, etc. Should Man City fans stop cheering for the team because they are now owned by a possibly corrrupt or questionable state? Some probably did.

OriginalPouzar

Bohologo

 Reply to OriginalPouzar

 September 3, 2021 12:49 pm

If you know about Uyghur concentration camps in Xinjiang but don’t care, I’m not entirely convinced that you know all about that stuff

I guess I did type “I don’t care”, end stop but that’s not quite what I meant.

I do care but as an overall statement and ideology, however, vis-a-vis Olympic participation, I seperate them and look forward to watching the Olympics and, in particular, the hockey.

I know Olympics have been boycotted in the past by countries and that can be a legit conversation in connection with these (or any) Olympics, but I’m not sure previous boycotts had any real or lasting effects and I’m convinced that any sort of Canadian boycott of these Olympics, or not sending the best athletes in any particular sport, would have one iota of an effect.

In that regard, play-on.

I know its selfish and I acknowledge that!

ChupaCabra

Canada, of course, boycotted the 1980 Olympics held in the USSR… somewhat ironically to protest the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

90s fan

Holy, I did not know this stuff. (Head in a hole?) After searching this up, I am pretty floored. Hockey is not the solution. Why are we not icing China out with trade embargos? (What response from the world does it take to make a meaningful message?)

Genjutsu

Because there’s a lot of rich people that make a lot of money dealing with China.

JimmyV1965

I have mixed feelings. Will be happy to see them play, but geez China is an awful awful country, and we refuse to make even the slightest gesture like boycotting the Olympics.

jp

Olympic hockey is about as good as it gets.

And I’m not one who usually boycotts things or worries too much about political issues.

I won’t be able to watch Olympic hockey in this case though.

By most/all reports they’ve got a million people in concentration camps. So far beyond acceptable.

I wonder if any of the (hockey) players will boycott?

Reja

Not if Babcock is the coach even though they won it was hard to stay awake watching that team.

unca miltie

Someone said something about us boomers being selfish. In my lifetime we have destroyed much of our north American manufacturing and chased cheaply made products from cheap labor in China. We found cheap to produce oil in the middle east and support awful regimes there instead of using our more expensive to produce oil here. I am not wise enough to know how to solve this but certainly believe we created much of the problems. We ignore the pollution created in China by us buying stuff there but have carbon taxes here, How smart is that?

godot10

Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor are stilling rotting in a Chinese prison.

OriginalPouzar

With respect the NHL/NHLPA covid-protocols and the potential implication for non-vacinated players (and their teams), my understanding is that 95% of NHL players are now fully vaccinated (and that is up from 85% not that long ago).

I think the players knew something similar was coming and it moved the needle, which is great.

I’m sure the NHL will apply to the federal government for an exemption from quarantine, etc. but I’m not sure it will be granted this time.

Here is hoping all the Oilers are vaccinated and their top prospects as well as this would effect call-ups if they players aren’t vaxxed.

Redbird62

Anton Lander is not in the same category as the high picks. He was drafted in 2009 and didn’t play in the NHL until 2011 after 2 seasons in the Swedish Elite League. That is nothing like going from juniors at 18 straight to the NHL.

Reja

Do you think they gave Anton a fair chance? I remember when he played with Hall for a short period of time as I believe one got injured anyhow they looked really good and they pointed as well.

Redbird62

Yes I believe he did. He got 215 games over 6 seasons, with 5 different coaches. He scored only 35 points in those games, 20 of them during a 38 game stretch with Nelson as his coach. Even if Hall was good for Lander comparatively, Lander was not good for Hall. Over his last 3 seasons with the Oilers, Hall scored only 1.17 points per 60 when on the ice with Lander. McClellan even dressed him for 61 games in his first season as coach, and while his linemates were not always great, he managed only 3 points. He only dressed for 21 games the next season, but pretty hard to fault McClellan’s roster deployment decisions, since that season the Oilers made the playoffs, which was job 1 after 10 years missing, then Lander bolted. When he was put on waivers, no other team put in a claim.

OriginalPouzar

What about Magnus Paajarvi?

I think he went back to to Finland for one year post-draft, if I remember correctly.

Redbird62

Not sure why you brought Magnus up? He is outside the time range that LT is discussing.

Litke 94

That’s an interesting contract for Batherson. Pretty damn good year last year, and his possession numbers are great, especially relative to his teammates.

5 million for 6 years is a bold move though – the cost of no bridge.

dustrock

I’m not going to get into a political fight on this blog, and LT feel free to give me a timeout if I’m going too far on this, but IMHO, the vaccine policy is not harsh whatsoever. I’m already shocked that pro athletes would want to take their chances with a disease that can affect the lungs, but then I read at The Athletic every NFL team had groups from the CDC come out to each team’s training camp and give them detailed information about the efficacy of the vaccine, and some players still said no. Some players admitted they just got tired of wearing masks and being rapid tested twice per day.

Of course we have the Elks looking pretty pathetic with the number of COVID cases on the squad and that’s after vaccines have been available for months.

With the anti-vaxx protests now moving to hospitals, my patience is at an end. My daughter has to go through another year of wearing masks all day in school (and likely having to go back to online learning for a time) because some people’s perceived rights are more important than the rights of 80% of the population.

SoCaloil

100% agreed.
I’m in Southern California
We’re receiving a daily email that someone in my daughter’s elementary school tested positive and the person and close contacts need to quarantine.
It’s only week2

What about my daughters right to an interrupted education?

To make this post hockey related, I will add:
How am I supposed to bring her to her first hockey game in that environment?

Reja

If your fully Vaccinated then why are you concerned how about Joe Blow down the block that chooses not to receive the Vaccination.

Durag

I for one am shocked that you did not use the proper “you’re” here. Shocked, I say.

ArmchairGM

Probably because his daughter isn’t fully vaccinated and cannot be by law? I’m in the same quandry, with 2 kids below 12. I’ve heard though that Pfizer will have 0.5 – 12 year-olds data available by November, so I’m hopeful that my kids will be fully vaccinated by early 2022.

leadfarmer

Because the Joe blow down the block is risking all the progress we have made for selfish reasons

Reja

How so? Should the Government raid his house in the middle of the night use a taser to subdue him then administrator a Vaccine shot. While they’re leaving they tell Joe don’t try to run or hide will be back for your 2nd shot.

Brogan Rafferty's Uncle Steve

.

Last edited 23 days ago by Brogan Rafferty's Uncle Steve
SoCaloil

Think I made that clear….so my kid 1) doesn’t get sick and 2) doesn’t miss school for 2 weeks!

ArmchairGM

because some people’s perceived rights are more important than the rights of 80% of the population.

What about their rights to not wear a seatbelt? Or a motorcycle helmet? Most of the arguments don’t make sense – the government is already regulating many of our behaviors already. Pretty sure every single hockey player is immunized against Polio, Measles and Mumps already, I don’t see why there would be an issue with getting a COVID shot.

dustrock

You’d think. I actually thought of trying to read twitter if the government was trying to pass a seatbelt law in 2021.

TheGreatBigMac

“I don’t see why there would be an issue with getting a COVID shot.” because it’s experimental and may have side effects that are not well known.

Revolved

I can respect this opinion, but am always surprised that the people who hold it pay no attention to the massive numbers of untested chemicals in and on the other products they consume.

Side

“You don’t know what’s in it or what it will do to you”

Someone says as they take a drag from their cigarette, takes a drink out of a can of Red Bull, takes a bite out of their Big Mac, and later takes some prescribed medication from the same producers who made the vaccine before relaxing with some recreational drugs they acquired from a guy who they are only familiar with on a first name basis.

Last edited 23 days ago by Side
PennersPancakes

How are they experimental? These vaccines have gone through all the proper research and testing. Wasn’t Pfizer fully approved by the FDA a month ago?

You know what has well known (and unknown)side effects? Covid. So it turns into:

Risk a tiny minuscule chance of a mild side effect from a scientifically developed solution to help humanity

OR

Risk contracting Covid, giving it another chance to mutate, and experience a much higher chance of death and permanent damage we are already seeing around the globe with evidence already showing long term effects.

TheGreatBigMac

I think we read different news sources. I do not believe the choice is as you have framed it – tiny chance of minor side effects to save humanity vs risking covid and death to yourself and others.

PennersPancakes

Possibly, what sources have you read and what points are you talking about?

I would love to read more and inform myself about the vaccines being experimental. How would you frame the choice concerning vaccines?

theDonkeyJohnson

Its a vaccine. Saves people. Pretty simple really, it’s a good thing we didn’t have the internet when we were exposed to defoliant spray -agent orange and the like day after day like I was, that’d give them a legitimate reason to complain.
I’ll take my chances with the jab any day over that crap.

Last edited 23 days ago by theDonkeyJohnson
Side

“Of course we have the Elks looking pretty pathetic with the number of COVID cases on the squad and that’s after vaccines have been available for months.”

Also looking pathetic because they apparently took Ruby’s word that he was vaccinated when he wasn’t.

Ruby exercised his personal freedom to infect other players.

Embarassing.

I am glad the NHL is taking a firmer stance on the subject.

Genjutsu

Well Ruby made his choice and lost his job over it. In fact his career is now over.

Made in famous though, well infamous is a better word for a pariah.

defmn

Sensitive topic and I have stayed out of it until now but I will offer the following observations this one time.

Organizational policy – right up to and including government – is always supposed to be about protecting the organization. Unions, courts etc. are always supposed to be about protecting the individual. That is their theory if not always their practice.

In this case both the organization (NHL) and the union (NHLPA) have decided the needs of the organization outweigh any rights that individuals might think they have. That should make people think about how serious this is because these are both very powerful voices for their constituencies.

——————————–

Vaccines are always about protecting the herd. If a small % of individuals suffer harm as a result of them that is the cost of protecting the group. Nobody likes it but when there is no perfect answer you go with the best answer for the group. If you choose to go with what you think is best for you rather than what is best for the group then you have chosen to be selfish since that is the word for putting yourself ahead of the group.

Lots of people are selfish, and in many cases justifiably so, but when that selfishness endangers other people and their families it would be naive to not expect an angry reaction.

—————————

Having worked in government for politicians I think I have a pretty good idea of how cabinet decisions are made. I told my wife back when the vaccines first started coming out that government would first deal with the group that saw them as a positive and would sell them as hope.

Once the line ups diminished and supply was no longer the limiting factor they would turn to a marketing programme to bring in the fence sitters.

Once the fence sitters were taken care of they would begin with rumours or ‘trial balloons’ on stricter measures for those that weren’t vaccinated. Slowly they would dribble out the rules that would make life so inconvenient that another 5% or so would acquiesce to being vaccinated while counting on large corporations, who are risk adverse by definition, would turn the screw another quarter turn.

At that point they hope the disease will be controlled to the point where it is not overwhelming the medical infrastructure and they could just leave the ideologically adamant alone but if the cost to the system continues to be too high they will move to criminal prosecution of those who infect others while not vaccinated similar to what they did for those with sexually transmitted diseases etc.

This is just how the government playbook reads for all stripes of governments. Conservatives will move ‘reluctantly’ and the left will move with ‘compassion’ but the move will be pretty much exactly the same.

Reja

I must be ignorant I have just 2 questions. How does a unvaccinated individual give it to a vaccinated person if the vaccine works? Also what happens to the people that have a reaction to the Vaccine will they are their families be compensated?

Last edited 23 days ago by Reja
PennersPancakes

Vaccines dont have to be 100% effective to be effective. A lot of issues relating to this whole pandemic are people viewing topics as binary. You die or you dont die, or the vaccine works or doesnt work.

The vaccine makes it much harder to be infected, if you are infected then the symptoms are much less severe, and you are less likely to infect again. If the entire population were vaccinated Covid wouldnt spread nearly as easy and hospitalization numbers and deaths would be much lower as well as giving the virus less chances to mutate further.

A helpful analogy is to think of unvaccinated Canadians as kindle. Very easy to catch fire, easy to burn up. Vaccinated Canadians are closer to a wet log. Yes they can burn, they could even help spread a fire but it is much much harder.

I am not sure of what legal discourse is available to people who have reactions to the vaccine but as of September 1st there have been 55.4 million doses administered in Canada alone and 5.4 billion worldwide. In Canada of the 55.4 million doses there have been 10,300 non serious adverse events (0.02%) and 3768 serious adverse events (0.007%). Those numbers arent proven to be related to vaccines but happen in a certain time period after. These numbers can be found at https://health-infobase.canada.ca/

dessert1111

Do you have a more specific link you can sure? I couldn’t find the data you’re referring to on the main page in the link.

31saves

I believe these are valid questions. First of all the Vaccine is not a surefire way to prevent COVID form infecting an individual, particularly the much more virulent and contagious Delta variant. Studies are mixed here, but it is more contagious either because A) The spike protein that the virus uses to bind with cells has mutated to a new shape that infects cells more effectively, or B) The Delta Variant presents with exponentially more virulent particles/ virus cells. Either way, it is much more effective at evading or overwhelming the immune system to infect everyone, even those who are vaccinated. It is still more difficult to infect vaccinated peoples, and those unvaccinated are infected at 12x the rate of those who are vaccinated, but this variant is very good at infecting people and spreading.

Secondly, while I do understand there is concern about potential side effects with the vaccine, you also need to look at the risk of side effects from the vaccine vs the side effects of the disease. For example, the concern about vaccines and blood clots, COVID was found to infect 39 per million cases with those same blood clots as compared to 4.3 per million of those who received the vaccine.

Sorry LT if this is out of line from this blog, but I do try to address any COVID questions or misinformation when and where I can.

SoCaloil

Good chat Y’all

now when will Yammers get signed

31saves

Oh Right!! Hockey!
trade the mall!

Reja

Wouldn’t every pet or all animals need to be vaccinated as well.

dessert1111

No, most viruses don’t spread between humans and animals. It’s why we don’t give our pets the flu and things that like when we’re sick.

pts2pndr

Take a look at the percentage of people being hospitalized that are vaccinated vs those that are not. If you refuse vaccination you are gambling with your life and the ones you love. The odds say you have a losing hand! I in all sincerity wish you well because it is a terrible way to die!

JimmyV1965

I don’t want to be insensitive, but 16 people 19 years old or younger have died from Covid in Canada. Another 68 have died in the 20-29 age group. I would respectively submit that young people are at much greater risk driving to school than catching covid at school. Although I’m double vaxxed, I’m also 55 years old. I don’t feel it’s my place to tell young people how to live their life. 

IMO were asking young people to carry the burden for baby boomers. And although the short term risks of mRNA vaccines are clearly small, we can’t possibly foresee all the long term risks. And it’s young people who carry the burden of long term risks, not baby boomers. 

PennersPancakes

Being in the 20-29 age group I do feel like Covid wont kill me. Some people get it and are fine, very few people my age die I dont know anyone personally. I do know someone personally who is still experiencing issues due to it though. Theyre alive but still not being able to breathe fully/winded after stairs despite being an athlete is something Im not trying to experience.

I am by no means a vaccine expert so I only read and interpret the results of thousands of formally educated and trained professionals. As for mNRA vaccines though, the summarized thoughts that help make me feel better about getting them are:

  1. Since the 1960s severe side effects have been very rare and if they do occur its usually within the first two months. (Past that).
  2. All Covid vaccines went through the appropriate clinical trials and are still being monitored and no alarm bells have been rung yet.
  3. mRNA vaccines are new but not unknown. I believe this is the first ever mass application but they have been researched for decades

Its my understanding we have a much better idea of the negligible long term effects of the mRNA vaccine especially when compared to the semi-known long term effects of experiencing Covid.

JimmyV1965

I basically agree with this. mRNA has been researched heavily even going back to the 50s and beyond. The application for cancer treatment, for instance, can be truly profound. 

Here’s my concern. You’ve got a healthy 25 year old who has let’s say a 98.5% chance of no impact from COVID. Now I’m asking him to take one for the team and get the vaccine, to maybe improve his odds to let’s say 98.7% And although it’s unlikely there will be no long term impact, we really can’t say with complete certainty. 

I’m not comfortable going there. 

godot10

Both Pfizer and Moderna have terminated their long term clinicals trials of the vaccines. We will never know the long term effects.

Data from Israel are beginning to show immunity from natural infection is more durable than immunity from vaccines. For healthy people under 40 for who the risk of death is similar to the flu, if the state of the hospital system were not an issue….

I am fully vaccinated and encourage everyone to do so.

Fuhrious

You’re right Godot, we’ll never know what happens to the > 5 billion people that are vaccinated. That’s just way to few people to really do stats and see what happens. They could all grow wings or up and die, and we’d just never know.

Anyway, you’re also wrong about the trials being terminated. My neighbor is in the Moderna trial and is currently still being tracked by Moderna. Also, some countries are also tracking this as part of their nationalized healthcare (Israel does this).

Also, I do not believe there is any evidence that natural immunity is stronger. For example I’ve seen preliminary(!) results showing the opposite, and I don’t think we know the answer accurately as far as I’ve read. It’s also a silly point to discuss as it’s not what is important. What matters is weighing the impact of getting exposed after vaccination vs getting exposed w/o vaccination, and we know those stats fairly well: the vaccination massively increases your chance of living.

godot10

My understanding is both long term trials were unblinded. I can’t find the links where I originally saw this at the moment.

News report on the Israeli study of strong immunity from natural infection.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-covid-recovery-gave-israelis-longer-lasting-delta-defense-than-vaccines/

Fuhrious

Moderna unblinded at 6 months, tracking for side effects goes past that. I suspect it’s considered ethical to keep blinded once the vaccine was approved and unvaccinated participants could get the real vax.

Thanks for this study, hadn’t read it yet. Now that boosters are possible, it’s interesting to do this tracking of the fading of immunity to milder cases in the vaccinated vs infected people after 6 months. Most important takeaway: no deaths observed in either group (i.e., compares two fairly well-protected groups of people).

Notably, it’s hard to know about the relative rate of immunity fade when spacing the two shots at the originally recommended time (Israel) vs spacing them out (Canada, UK). Canada may have made the right choice on that one (or could be worse). Moderna is also 3x the dosage of Pfizer, so may fade quite differently. Either way, the vaccines come out looking pretty good in all the studies.

Fuhrious

In Texas, there were zero pediatric ICU beds available on Aug. 16th. Less risk for kids than the over 80 crowd, but still seeing lots of very sick kids in the south.

JimmyV1965

I’ll try to take another approach. I’m 55 years old. I’m double vaxxed. Yet I understand everytime I walk out the door, there’s a small chance I contract covid. It’s the risk I have to assume for myself.

I don’t feel comfortable telling younger, healthier people to get the vaccine to make life easier for myself. Because that’s who they are truly helping – older baby boomers with health issues. 

And it’s young people who have assumed virtually all the burden for the pandemic. I don’t have any numbers, but I think we can all assume young people have been far more impacted by lock downs, whether it be lost jobs, lost wages, school interruptions, social interruptions etc. 

Now I’m asking them to get vaccinated so I can go to a hockey game without any fear. I’m not comfortable with that at all. 

Cassandra

There is so much wrong about what Jimmy said, that you think it is thoughtful shows a lot about your judgement.

The pandemic has placed society on hold, it threatens the health care and education systems, it has ruined lives economically, its effect is profound, not simply on old people but everyone. It is far and away the worst thing that has happened in my lifetime.

People in their twenties who don’t get vaccinated are not simply making people in their fifties uncomfortable, they are prolonging a disaster for which we have no words.

Cassandra

The social contract is broken in our society, perhaps forever. We will never be the same. What we have learned, collectively, from this pandemic is that we are not all in this together, that no one owes anybody anything.

yeraslob

Not responding to you specifically LT, just hitting “reply”.
The jab is a divisive subject.
I will submit something related to this topicI haven’t seen a lot of and that is vaccine injury (death actually).
In the US, VAERS, which I think is part of the CDC(?), stopped making public the number of deaths attributed to the vaccine. Keep in mind, these are doctors signing off on the cause of death and submitting it. In July, for three weeks straight, deaths skyrocketed according to VAERS. They subsequently stopped listing vaccine deaths altogether. You can’t find this information there anymore. This is not right and doesn’t make sense. The last posted death total from the covid vaccines is just over 12,300.
Is there a Canadian version of VAERS that tracks adverse reactions from vaccines including death?

Fuhrious

This information was listed above by PennersPancakes and the chance of being hurt by the vaccine is much lower than is the chance of being hurt by the virus. Even for young people.

I looked at that info. some months ago so I can’t be certain I recall this correctly, but I believe it’s actually quite difficult to tell the vaccine injury rate because it’s so small. I specifically looked up the exact stats on blood clotting and it was something on the order of a case per million people. Clotting disorders already occur at a similar rate, so it’s hard to measure accurately enough to tell the difference between, say, 6 cases per million vaccinated vs 4 cases per million w/o vaccinations because we just don’t do studies with a hundred million people to measure something like that definitively. Now, the numbers I put are from memory so are likely a ways off, but the takeaway is that any serious side effects are rare. So, the reason that you don’t hear about them a lot isn’t that they are being hidden using a conspiracy of thousands of people, it’s that they are small, hard to measure, and just so much less risky than getting COVID itself that they aren’t really worth discussing by anyone but the nerds in charge of measuring them.

Numenius

Fuhrious:
If you look at all ages, the myocarditis risk from Pfizer, for example, is quite small: I believe it is 1/million: 0.001%. So really irrelevant.

But it’s not so irrelevant when you look at young males 16-24 years old. According to an Israeli study, the risk of myocarditis for this age and gender after 2 doses of Pfizer appears to be 1/3000 to 1/6000.
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/increased-risk-of-heart-muscle-inflammation-linked-with-mrna-vaccines-seen-in-ottawa

That works out to a rate of 0.017%-0.03% and approaches the myocarditis risk from C19 itself, which for males age 12-17 is 0.088%.

So the vaccine myocarditis risk for most of the young males playing for our Edmonton Oilers is about 20%-34% the myocarditis risk from C19, which isn’t insignificant. I’d think it at least makes vaccine hesitation understandable.

I wonder if the NHL knows this, and if there have been players who’ve had such vaccine side effects.

Fuhrious

Yeah, I think it’s a little more subtle than that framing. Israeli study showed one in 3 to 6 thousand vs a rate of one in 10 to 20 thousand in the general population. Seems statistically significant, the that article says that no increase has been seen in Canada. The most important part of the article is the next sentence after that stats on the cases: “Most cases were mild.” Influenzas, adenoviruses, parvoviruses all can cause some mild myocarditis too. Notably, the Canadian cardiologist they quote therein that reviewed the original study says we should still be doing the vaccinations in the young.

Fuhrious

Actually, I was curious (bad habit of mine) so I started looking up more about what you are mentioning here. First off, you can easily go download the VAERS data current as of today (at https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/datasets.html?). So… not sure where you got that.

Also, VAERS is a database of every death that occurs soon after a vaccination, not a database of deaths caused by vaccinations. The VAERS website says directly “Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.” So, to be triple safe, every single death by any cause is reported, because then none can be missed. It is then up to researchers to track them down and see if any are indeed caused by the vaccine or are due to unrelated conditions.

Furthermore, the death total is not 12k, it’s 6k, which means 0.0019% of vaccinated people died due to any and all causes in close timing to the vaccinations. Drilling down on the data further, according to the CDC spokesperson Martha Sharan: “a review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines.” She did note that “recent reports (here) indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome. TTS is a rare and severe adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths.” Sharan confirmed there are three known deaths associated with vaccines, and that deaths “were confirmed cases of TTS following the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine.” [Reuters quotes]

So… probably circa 3 deaths.

I then wondered why you were so specific in your information that turns out to be incorrect. It turns out that a video crowd-funded “news” company called “Stranger Than Fiction News” released a purposefully misleading video that is likely the source of your claims. I feel bad for people that are going out and trying to be informed like yeraslob, but getting caught fed lies by bad people. We all have to up our due diligence in times like these.

Numenius

yeraslob:
I believe VAERS still publishes reported deaths from the Covid vaccines. The openvaers website tracks this and reports 13,911 deaths as of August 23, but that includes non-domestic deaths.
https://www.openvaers.com/covid-data

If you go to the VAERS database yourself, you can look up reported deaths only in the US, which is about half that: 6,296 as of last Friday. That’s more reported deaths than for all vaccines in the last 30 years, but still quite a small percentage (0.003%) of the roughly 200M vaccinated at least once.
https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=6056239667F127B4DEDB0FD2FD39

There’s a Canadian system called CAEFISS. It reports 184 Covid vaccine deaths in Canada as of Aug 27. Only medical professional can report on it, unlike VAERS, so the proportion of deaths it catches is likely lower than VAERS.
https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=6056239667F127B4DEDB0FD2FD39

The big question is how accurate to reality these systems are. Everyone knows reporting doesn’t establish causation and there will certainly be many inaccuracies, but historically both systems underreport the real numbers. On the other hand, the Covid vaccines could be a special case, since people are more suspicious and perhaps more motivated to report, especially deaths. It’s a tough one.

Last edited 23 days ago by Numenius
Fuhrious

You’re right LT, JV-65 has elegantly expressed an important concern. It shows him to be a thoughtful and caring person.

There are other concerns of course.  For myself, I worry that my kids will die like the 18 year old student in my university department last year.  Others worry that allowing the virus to multiply in asymptomatic young people will produce the next mutation.  Others worry about side effects from the strong immune response to the vaccine. Others worry about Long Covid in kids.

So how do we balance all of these concerns? Clinical trials and mathematics, just like we do for every single medicine you or I or anyone has ever taken.  I’m sure JV-65 would likewise be wary of asking a kid to go and eat radioactive fluorine and get a PET scan; but, of course, we entrust doctors to do that all the time because the process has been studied. We need to let the epidemiologists and clinical trial researchers and statisticians make the call on vaccines, and they are saying that everybody over 12 should go and get the shot. 

godot10

Alberta has all the passport infrastructure in place (proof of vax is easily available from AHS, a card and QR code in the near future). Many businesses, like the OIlers, are going to demand proof-of-vax. It is a voluntary system at the moment where any non-essential business has the choice to use a passport or not.

Alberta is not remotely like Texas or Florida where businesses are banned by government from using a passport. Any business (except essential services) can use a passport in Alberta. No one is stopping them. The government is facilitating businesses ability to choose to use a passport.

There is a whole political hullabaloo over the government not forcing businesses to do what many (and most probably wiill) do entirely on their own, using the passport infrastructure provided by the government. It is much ado about nothing.

The government can go from voluntary choice by business to mandatory overnight if it wants to. If left voluntary, probably the vast majority of businesses will be demanding a passport.

Fuhrious

Ah yes, “probably”, the best system on which to run a country.

LostBoy

What a depressing thread. The opinions of the ownership, a dude who has been one of my touchstones for following the Oilers from afar over the last decade plus, frankly shock me.

Not that anyone asked/cares, but I’m faculty at the only Big Ten university that doesn’t have a mask mandate (nor a vaccine mandate, both by state law). A couple of weeks into the semester, we’re in a position where we have to go into classrooms in which a fair proprtion, sometimes a majority of students are not wearing masks, and whose vaccination status is unknown. We’ve been trying to get as much information as possible on what might encourage masking. The answer apparently is: appeals to not make other people sick, even if you have relatively low risk of serious illness, nope. Appeals that we might have to go mostly online again, there you go. They hate that, and might suffer a mask to not have to do that. sigh.

I agree that younger people have lost more, on balance, than people my age (I, too, am 55), in all the social disruption of a global pandemic.

But we are not asking young people to get vaccinated to make Boomers at Rogers Place feel more safe.

For fuck’s fucking sake.

We are asking young people to get vaccinated to try to end a goddamned global pandemic.

In support of across the board vaccine mandates (which, now, seven of the 14 Big Ten schools have). You have to be vaccinated for mumps, measles, and rubella, to take classes on campus at my university. This horseshit over a global pandemic is 100% batshit politics.

Anyway, been nice reading you, LT. Kill my post, give me a timeout, whatever. I’m done, g’bye.

Fuhrious

I’m very thankful my university requires masks and will require vaccinations (by American Thanksgiving). FWIW, Delta spreads better via aerosols than even Alpha did, but if you wear a properly fitted N95, you are unlikely to catch it even if you were immunocompromised. That’s what my wife and many other ER docs wear, and they are basically swimming in a soup of the virus with very symptomatic people around. Though, I know that you’re not writing this because you’re concerned about you catching it, but about the decision to just let it spread free amongst the students.

defmn

I understand the sentiment but I disagree. If you want to blame the boomers for something there is no shortage of better targets – and at age 69 I am firmly in that group.

My generation has a lot of sins to repent for – everything from compiling a level of debt our grandchildren will be paying for just to make ourselves more comfortable to stupid wars to eroding the middle class and on and on.

I grew up in that time when we ridiculed our predecessors for their incompetence and were sure we would do so much better but we have proven far less competent and a sight more greedy.

But epidemics are different.

They touch every level of society and the variants that are killing older people this year could very easily evolve into deadly forms for any age. This is not a situation that should be viewed from any demographic angle.

We don’t exclude those without children from paying school taxes. Those who live downtown without cars help pay to have highways built. The mRNA technology that allowed these vaccines to be produced so quickly has been worked on for decades. The narrative that it could produce long term complications is not compelling, imo, because the infrastructure for the technology is clearly less invasive than the older methodology.

This is not a class, or race, or gender or age issue imo. For once it truly is an issue that affects everybody to some degree. After all everybody has parents or grandparents in the high risk group.

oilersjo

I am turning 70 next month have a chest infection and I agree with you. I have chose to share the burden. I have curtailed my actions with others,they are to ambitious to hold back. they can learn bettr than I can teach.

innercitysmytty

Overall this would make sense if all segments of the population (under 12) and all countries, had an opportunity to be vaccinated already. Then the unvaccinated have presumably made an informed choice not to but they are not impacting others that have not had an opportunity to make this choice. I don’t want my 10 year old to get Covid from a 25 year old, and assume others wouldn’t as well.

dustrock

Love the song, as always, my favourite Neil Young if, gun to my head, I had to pick.

And love the MIT story. General managers are not necessarily good businessmen, but then, pro sports isn’t really a business in the typical sense.

SoCaloil

i came across this article this am and I got to say this article is a fine piece of worthless reporting in a month filled with worthless clickbait BS.

The only similarity between Farabee and Yammers is their age

leadfarmer

Better comparison is Tolvanen

leadfarmer

Given how much money the players owe the owners the owners naturally want as close to a normal season as they possibly can.
if a player can’t cross the border they aren’t much use to the team

Side

“Hello darkness my old friend…”

tileguy

Dam, what did I miss?

OriginalPouzar

I missed it too….

Bulging Twine

Tyler Tulio named Captain in Oshawa

Todd Macallan

Remains my favourite 2020 non-Holloway pick, despite also being a huge Savoie fan.

I think Tullio has the best chance of becoming a fan favourite out of any current prospect not named Holloway.

ArmchairGM

Yup, I think a lot of fans and media are sleeping on Tullio. It’s no wonder since we really haven’t seen much of him, but I think he’s going to surprise a lot of people.

OriginalPouzar

Speaking of prospects an the OHL, I did notice yesterday that M. Petrov is listed on the N. Bay roster so I do believe he is indeed coming over to play major junior which I’m happy about.

SoCaloil

I like how you arrived at the cost of non-comformance.

Those “MIT” man still exist but they are not that smart anymore.
They call them six sigma black belts.
They’re masters at bullshitting.
But it’s true, there is a cost associated with rework.

BornInAGretzkyJersey

A motto I learned on the job years ago:

“If you had time to do it twice, you had time to do it right the first time.”

Cape Breton Oilers 4EVR

I agree 100% on your point about Canadian teams needing to be efficient. It seems like they all have to pay a premium to get or keep players.

One point I’d like to make on Benson, and others may disagree, but I feel like he should be penciled in as a bottom 6 LW and given lots of rope. For the reasons LT mentions, they’re pretty heavily invested now. I’m not saying ignore his performance, but he should have to lose the job IMO. They’ve got a player that can’t do any more in the minors, and has never gotten a fair, extended look on the big club. Why go through the whole process if you’re never gonna give him a chance. And go into it assuming there will be hiccups, but don’t healthy-scratch the guy for 3 weeks because he coughs up 2 pucks in the same game. They can’t cut bait on him, or any prospect really, without giving them a genuine opportunity to play. How could he make the bottom 6 any worse than last year?

PennersPancakes

Agreed that it cant be any worse than last year. I wonder if Tippet gives out a longer leash this year to certain players since it wont be as tight a race. It was years of just trying to make the playoffs where now the Oilers have finished 2nd in their division the last 2 years and are primed to be top 2 again with strong additions and a weak division.

Scungilli Slushy

What bugs me most is not that they don’t like a certain prospect, it’s that they don’t value them.

Maybe for example Benson is too small (although I see him listed at 200 now, not light anymore and is 6 feet) or too slow for what they are building for.

Fine, but don’t flame him out and let him go for nothing like always.

I have a hard time believing a top AHL point producer who is young and only fell out of the first round because of now resolved health issues has zero value to the other 30 teams.

If they won’t bite I say it’s because the other GMs are waiting for the Oilers to do the stupid again and give talent away, or maybe better throw talent away.

I see first and second round picks as the high value picks, so any player that was bought with one needs to return something at least decent.

Part of this is make the call, live with misjudging the player if it happens. If you aren’t digging it, move them while they have value or there is time to.

Redbird62

Benson is still with the team having just resigned. You write as if they have already given up on him. If not traded beforehand (seems unlikely) he will be given a chance to make the 23 man roster. Only if they lose him on waivers can you then make the claim that they gave up on him. Who else have the Oilers given up on, particularly in the Holland era, since you really can’t criticize him for mistakes made by Chiarelli, MacTavish etc.? And by your criteria that is given away and/or thrown away? Both Bear and Jones (4th and 5th round picks) were traded for players that Holland valued more, not that he didn’t value Jones and Bear.

Cape Breton Oilers 4EVR

I’m not thinking like that at all. I’m kinda ok with Bear and Jones trades, and I’m not accusing Holland of anything that was done by past management. I’m just really hopeful they don’t give the job to Perkins or a PTO guy before they give Benson a genuine chance. I’m just hopeful for Benson.

PennersPancakes

Perkins & Perlinis Paninis is my new go to lunch spot

OriginalPouzar

One point I’d like to make on Benson, and others may disagree, but I feel like he should be penciled in as a bottom 6 LW and given lots of rope. For the reasons LT mentions, they’re pretty heavily invested now. I’m not saying ignore his performance, but he should have to lose the job IMO. They’ve got a player that can’t do any more in the minors, and has never gotten a fair, extended look on the big club. Why go through the whole process if you’re never gonna give him a chance.

The only part I disagree on is that he’s pigeon-holed in to the bottom six. This is a skilled player that has produced at every level of hockey, in some cases, exceptionally.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think there is any realistic hope that he gets a real look in the top 6 and a real opportunity to win a spot there so, in that respect, I do agree with you 100%.

I do think that he could realistically mesh with one of our elite centers given he is a high IQ player, both offensively and overall, and will know to get the puck to the right places and the right players, is good on the boards in order to get that puck, and has a fine 2-way game.

Fast boots are not required to succeed with McDavid (or Drai).

I don’t imagine that Coach T. provides this opportunity so, yes, I think he should be pencilled in to the 23 man roster for sure and maybe even a bottom 6 LW spot (I imagine that Shore is there in pencil right now).

I hope he gets a real opportunity with some legit/established NHL players during camp and exhibition – at least give him some time with Kassian and Ryan (if not Nuge and Yamamoto) and don’t staple him to Cracknell and Esposito.

Redbird62

I replied to Scungill Slushy not to your original post. It was his response that had the fatalistic response.