Coke Machines: No Longer A Thing?

Among the men drafted by the Edmonton Oilers this century, Jujhar Khaira is one of the edgiest. He is very strong, is willing to engage and plays an aggressive game. There’s a mean streak. That’s a good thing.

Offense has been a problem, we’ve known that since before Kevin Constantine was his coach (Constantine’s teams typically dump the puck in on breakaways in order to be set defensively when the puck comes the other way).

Edmonton spent much of the early part of this century drafting players once described on this blog as ‘Coke Machines’ due to their size and inability to score. Khaira is not a Coke Machine, he’s an NHL player.

THE ATHLETIC!

Great perspective from a ridiculous group of writers and analysts. I am proud to be part of The Athletic. Here are the most recent Oilers stories.

In the early part of the century, the Edmonton Oilers spent at least one pick per season on a big forward. These men usually lacked NHL calibre skill, should have been taken in the 4th or 5th round but the Oilers plucked them 50 slots earlier in order to make certain no one else got them. Bold strategy, Cotton.

Size mattered. I called them “Coke Machines” because they were neither checkers or scorers and they couldn’t be called policemen because John Ferguson (first player I recall being called a policeman) took a regular shift in the Original Six and that was a tough row to hoe. Here are the names of the first set of Coke Machines and the year they were drafted:

  • 2000-No. 35-C Brad Winchester, 6’5, 210 [390 NHL games]
  • 2001-No. 52-C Eddie Caron, 6’2, 230
  • 2002-No. 79-LW Brock Radunske, 6’4, 199
  • 2003-No. 51-RW Colin McDonald, 6’2, 190 [148 NHL games]
  • 2003-No. 68-LW JF Jacques, 6’3.5, 217 [166 NHL games]
  • 2003-No. 94-RW Zack Stortini, 6’4, 225 [257 NHL games]
  • 2004-No. 57-C Geoff Paukovich, 6’4, 207
  • 2005-No. 97-C Chris Vande Velde, 6’2, 190 [278 NHL games]

Winchester played the most NHL games, but the ‘per 82 games’ boxcars really give you an idea about the most successful NHL player:

  • Colin McDonald 11-15-26
  • Brad Winchester 8-6-14
  • Chris VandeVelde 5-9-14
  • Zack Stortini 4-9-13
  • Jean-Francois Jacques 4-4-8

McDonald had the size but also enough skill to play in bigger parts of the game. VandeVelde was an extreme defensive center. Stortini was a MacT favourite, Jacques couldn’t find the ocean. Winchester was probably the most memorable, because of that big goal back in 2006.

Next Gen

The scouting staff had some turnover after 2007, there was a lot of unrest surrounding that 2007 draft we discussed yesterday. Kevin Prendergast was out, Stu MacgGregor was in. Edmonton pursued big forwards, but they were closer to Colin McDonald than Jean-Francois Jacques.

  • 2008-No. 163- L Teemu Hartikainen, 6’1, 215 [52 NHL games]
  • 2009-No. 82- R Cameron Abney 6’5, 205
  • 2010-No. 31- R Tyler Pitlick 6’1, 190 [248 NHL games]
  • 2010-No. 48- L Curtis Hamilton 6’3, 202 [1 NHL game]
  • 2010-No. 166- L Drew Czerwonka 6’2, 192
  • 2011-No. 74- C Travis Ewanyk 6’1, 185
  • 2012-No. 32- L Mitchell Moroz 6’3, 220
  • 2012-No. 63- L Jujhar Khaira 6’4, 212 [218 NHL games]
  • 2012-No. 91- L Daniil Zharkov 6’4, 212

MacGregor was aiming higher but there were some flummoxing choices too (the Abney pick might be the poorest top 100 pick in franchise history). Whereas the Prendergast big men averaged 15 points per 82 games, the men who made the show during MacGregor’s watch were all McDonald-level players.

  • Tyler Pitlick 14-10-24
  • Teemu Hartikainen 10-11-21
  • Juhar Khaira 8-12-20

Three men who are similar to Colin McDonald and all deliver at least some offense. Now, we move on to the MacT years, with Bob Green sliding in and MacGregor still in the room. As discussed yesterday, MacTavish overhauled certain areas, including (I believe) the definition of the ideal draft candidate. More skill! If size is part of the resume, more please, but it starts with skill. Here’s the list under MacT:

  • 2013- No. 83- LC Bogdan Yakimov 6’4, 227 [1 NHL game]
  • 2013- No. 113- L Aidan Muir 6’4, 211
  • 2014- No. 3- Leon Draisaitl 6’2, 208 [422 NHL games]

Per 82 games, Draisaitl is delivering 33-49-82, meaning MacTavish and the scouting staff finally reached the peak of Mount Coke Machine. Except it was no longer a pursuit of Coke Machines, but rather quality players who could make a difference in the heart of the game. Leon’s size is useful, but was secondary, even tertiary.

Peter Chiarelli solved the problem by simply not drafting forwards. He picked a 11 forwards out of 27 picks, 41 percent of the time. In the years in this decade previous to PC’s arrival, GM’s chose 26 forwards in 43 trips to the podium, 60 percent. I’d suggest the last true CM was Cameron Abney, chosen in 2009.

What about Ken Holland? Lots of big men (Michael Rasumussen and Jack Adams are 6.06), but they all have enough skill to project as offensive contributors at the pro level. Who was the ultimate Coke Machine? For that answer, I went to AHL points-per-game in rookie seasons. Fascinating.

Points per game as AHL rookies

  1. Jean-Francois Jacques 2005-06: 65, 24-20-44 [.677]
  2. Teemu Hartikainen 2010-11: 66, 17-25-42 [.636]
  3. Tyler Pitlick 2011-12: 62, 7-16-23 [.371]
  4. Colin McDonald 2007-08: 73, 12-11-23 [.315]
  5. Brad Winchester 2003-04: 65, 13-6-19 [.292]
  6. Curtis Hamilton 2011-12: 41, 5-6-11 [.268]
  7. Brock Radunske 2004-05: 8, 1-1-2 [.250]
  8. Chris VandeVelde 2010-11: 67, 12-4-16 [.239]
  9. Jujhar Khaira 2014-15: 51, 4-6-10 [.196]
  10. Geoff Paukovich 2008-09: 46, 5-4-9 [.196]
  11. Travis Ewanyk 2013-14: 68, 7-5-12 [.176]
  12. Zack Stortini 2005-06: 64, 2-8-10 [.156]
  13. Mitchell Moroz 2014-15: 66, 5-4-9 [.136]
  14. Cameron Abney 2011-12: 14, 0-0-0

The Abney pick was the nadir of the experiment but the Oilers were consistent in drafting players miles before they were projected because they had a ‘passion’ for the things said prospect brought to the game. How far down draft lists was Abney? Central Scouting had 210 names that year, Abney wasn’t on it. Oilers took him No. 82, Cody Eakin was chosen at No. 85.

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130 Responses to "Coke Machines: No Longer A Thing?"

  1. Brantford Boy says:

    LT: “Peter Chiarelli solved the problem by simply not drafting forwards.” – Brilliant!

  2. godot10 says:

    Jujhar is going to be 26 next season. He is on a cheap contract with one year left. He is effective in a specialty role (killing penalties, physicality, can play centre in a pinch). He will satisfy one of the minimum conditions for making available players in the expansioin draft.

    He is entering the prime years of his career.

    Holland should NOT trade him in the off-season. Roll-the-dice for one more year.

    This off-season is NOT the off-season to give up on him.

  3. slopitch says:

    Mantha would be considered a successful Holland size pick. Would sure look good in oilers silks.

    Jesse P would also be a player with size. Damn shame hes stumbled so far (blame on team too) but can only hope he recovers. Even as a 3RW who plays 2PP he could be quite valuable. Anthony Mantha played 2 full seasons in the AHL. I bet Holland would set JP up for more success than the last Oilers regime.

  4. Jaxon says:

    As a “first round” pick (retroactive top 32 in New NHL with Seattle), Moroz was the most egregious”coke machine” pick. He was picked way ahead of where he should have sent and there was still skill in the board. I hated that pick. And look at this rookie AHL numbers. Yuck.

  5. BONE207 says:

    The Abney pick was the nadir of the experiment

    The Oilers drafting in that era was nadir of the franchise. Kids who watched only Hockey Night in Canada could have drafted better players. I trust we are never to see that level of incompetence. Now when can we watch live games???

  6. Harpers Hair says:

    Corey Pronman (@coreypronman) Tweeted:
    And video of Vasili Podkolzin (VAN) from camp today https://t.co/nUuijgvEzj

    KHL training camps underway.

  7. Tragikomix says:

    I saw a rummour, Jack Eichel to L A Kings. So what would he cost? Turcotte and 2020 2nd overall?

  8. OriginalPouzar says:

    Looks like Seabrook has started skating and may be available for the series with the Oilers.

    3 surgeries (shoulder and each hip) since December and being a shadow of his former self prior to that – I may be all for him playing…..

  9. BornInAGretzkyJersey says:

    godot10,

    I agree.

    JJ could pop.

    And he’s already value today.

  10. BornInAGretzkyJersey says:

    Jaxon,

    I don’t understand this “retroactive” 32 team draft list take of yours.

    Why?

    We wouldn’t apply 32 teams to the Original Six, so why now? Pretty easy footnote to discern when looking at draft classes already, no?

  11. BornInAGretzkyJersey says:

    Harpers Hair,

    Glad that doesn’t look like hyped up propaganda.

    Interesting camera angle. Will look forward to more developments from the league afar while we muddle.

  12. Harpers Hair says:

    BornInAGretzkyJersey:
    Harpers Hair,

    Glad that doesn’t look like hyped up propaganda.

    Interesting camera angle.Will look forward to more developments from the league afar while we muddle.

    Appears to be a full team practice.

    No idea how they’re dealing with Covid in Russia.

  13. BornInAGretzkyJersey says:

    Harpers Hair,

    Or reporting, publicly and internally.

  14. OriginalPouzar says:

    It still surprises me every time i remember that Chis VandeVelde was an every day NHL player for the 3 years – playing 72 plus games for the Flyers in three straight seasons.

    As it turns out, that was a successful 4th round pick way back in 2005.

  15. BornInAGretzkyJersey says:

    Harpers Hair,

    I’m not going to register nor pay for the data on their citations. Do you know from where their primary sources originate?

  16. OriginalPouzar says:

    I agree that JJ Khaira is not a coke machine and is indeed an NHL player.

    He’s had two rough seasons in a row now:

    2018-19 – mainly due to injury and him never gaining traction
    2019-19 – he made some big mistakes that led to goals early, his 5 on 5 role diminished and he never got his confidence and game back

    When JJ is confidant, in my opinion, he is one of the better transporters of the puck through the neutral zone on the team – he carries the puck with power and confidence.

    He was prone to the mistake this past year – a couple giveaways that led to goals against and a couple of bad line changes. He was a poor 5 on 5 player but he can be a plus 5 on 5 player that helps the team and, the last portion of the season, playing center, was his best hockey of the year.

    His PK isn’t just good – its elite – year after year after year.

    I read about moving on from Khaira for cap reasons – he makes $1.2M – sure, it would be great if it was $950K but his contract is not an issue.

    Here is hoping that he has a nice re-set and has a solid post-season playing center – he’s big, aggressive and a good skater (yes, I think he is a good skater) and can be a contributor in the playoffs.

    Go JJ!

  17. BornInAGretzkyJersey says:

    OriginalPouzar,

    Funny enough, he was a footnote of mine in an early game that I saw live. I want to say it was against MIN, and we won (obviously) at home. Bizarre confluence of events considering the times.

    All I recall was he didn’t make much of an impression beyond his hustle, even as I was looking out for him.

  18. OriginalPouzar says:

    Wow, JFJ with the best AHL rookie production out of the “coke machines” – he has my title of the worst player to ever play for the Oiler – back injury or not – he played over half a season one year and his best play was corralling a puck in the neutral zone and getting it in deep.

  19. BornInAGretzkyJersey says:

    OriginalPouzar,

    Have you forgotten the vaunted Jerred Smithson?

  20. Harpers Hair says:

    BornInAGretzkyJersey:
    Harpers Hair,

    I’m not going to register nor pay for the data on their citations.Do you know from where their primary sources originate?

    Sorry, no.

  21. Bruce McCurdy says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    Wow, JFJ with the best AHL rookie production out of the “coke machines” – he has my title of the worst player to ever play for the Oiler – back injury or not – he played over half a season one year and his best play was corralling a puck in the neutral zone and getting it in deep.

    JFJ cumulative stats thru first 3 NHL seasons 2005-08: 53 GP, 0-0-0, -17.

    0 points in 53 games. That’s weak production for a goalie, let alone a forward.

    The -17 was earned on the basis of 2 (two) GF, 19 GA, for a GF% of 9.5%.

    On my short list of worst defensive forwards I’ve ever seen, & the offence speaks for itself.

    Pat Quinn’s response? Put him on the first line. ?

  22. Victoria Oil says:

    Interesting post LT. We can now debate whether Moroz, who was picked 32nd overall and likely at least two rounds too early or Abney, picked 82nd and who never should have been selected at all after just 4 points in 48 WHL games, was the worst draft pick. ?

  23. slopitch says:

    Bruce McCurdy,

    “Weak production for a goalie” ha

  24. hunter1909 says:

    Bruce McCurdy: Pat Quinn’s response? Put him on the first line.

    Of course Bruce, but you do have to admit Quinn showed a lot of try when he elevated JFJ to Line One…

  25. dustrock says:

    LT, your review of the Oilers cap situation over at The Athletic was fantastic.

  26. Lowetide says:

    dustrock:
    LT, your review of the Oilers cap situation over at The Athletic was fantastic.

    TY

  27. digger50 says:

    JJ generally leaves one of his biggest talents at home. He is stronger than 95% of the players on the ice. JJ is also meaner and tougher yet he doesn’t always bring that to his game. He brings enough talent to hold a job, but that hold is tenuous. I think he should use the gift god gave him and play with more of a edge.

    As the team moves to smaller, faster wingers; a well rounded JJ patrolling the bottom six and still keeping up with play, that adds value.

  28. Reja says:

    digger50:
    JJ generally leaves one of his biggest talents at home. He is stronger than 95% of the players on the ice. JJ is also meaner and tougher yet he doesn’t always bring that to his game. He brings enough talent to hold a job, but that hold is tenuous. I think he should use the gift god gave him and play with more of a edge.

    As the team moves to smaller, faster wingers; a well rounded JJ patrolling the bottom six and still keeping up with play, that adds value.

    He definitely plays better with a edge I don’t know how sustainable that is for 82 games. If he can play with that edge most nights in the playoffs never mind his great PK skills he’s well worth the 250 grand over the welfare cases.

  29. Jaxon says:

    BornInAGretzkyJersey:
    Jaxon,

    I don’t understand this “retroactive” 32 team draft list take of yours.

    Why?

    We wouldn’t apply 32 teams to the Original Six, so why now?Pretty easy footnote to discern when looking at draft classes already, no?

    Well, we’re now considering the to 32 picks as first round players. Do you think the 32nd best player in Seattle’s first draft deserves to be called a first round pick more than the 32nd pick this year. I think e should consider players on the top 32 as first rounders going back to at least 2005, maybe further. I think we should be calling Derek Roy (picked 32 in 2001 in a 30 team league) a “first round equivalent”. Is really the only way to compare first round picks. Top 32 players is the new standard for a first round pick. I think you could take that logic all the way back to 1979 and consider Lindy Ruff a first round equivalent, too.

  30. OriginalPouzar says:

    BornInAGretzkyJersey:
    OriginalPouzar,

    Have you forgotten the vaunted Jerred Smithson?

    JFJ – much worse!

  31. Lowetide says:

    Bruce McCurdy: JFJ cumulative stats thru first 3 NHL seasons 2005-08: 53 GP, 0-0-0, -17.

    0 points in 53 games. That’s weak production for a goalie, let alone a forward.

    The -17 was earned on the basis of 2 (two) GF, 19 GA, for a GF% of 9.5%.

    On my short list of worst defensive forwards I’ve ever seen, & the offence speaks for itself.

    Pat Quinn’s response? Put him on the first line. ?

    I may have told this story but maybe a few of you haven’t heard it. I had a buddy who scouting for some WHL teams when the Roadrunners were in Edmonton.

    Anyway, end of the 2005 season Jacques gets the call. I ask my buddy if he’s going to the game (yes) and wondered if he could give me an update on how Jacques played.

    “He’s big, you’ll notice him, and he’s fast,” I said.

    Ordinarily I would get a call three weeks later from my buddy because he’s busy. Calls me at 11 THAT NIGHT, laughing.

    “I saw your guy. He IS fast and he IS big. He can’t play hockey though.”

    Hangs up.

  32. Reja says:

    My 3 bets as of now who make the most impact are Benson Lagesson Bouchard. I also wouldn’t be shocked if Lavoie finds his niche on this team quickly, I could see him as Connor’s shoot first, work the corners, bang in rebounds in close with his size and skill winger by the new year.

  33. Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual says:

    While I’d prefer a buyout of Neal this offseason, I wanted to put forward an idea that was suggested as an option to free us of Lucic but to apply it to Neal instead: Neal for Turris.

    Nashville gets a shorter deal with the same ease of buyout and Edmonton gets a R shot 3C for cap money that’s already a sunk cost. If Turris can’t make it work as a 3C (likely alongside AA or Ennis and Chiasson), then we buy him out two years from now and the buyout cap hit of ~2mil would expire at the same time as if we had bought Neal out this year. Maybe we can get Nashville to retain the 250k to even things out.

  34. OriginalPouzar says:

    Kelly Kesserling, Michael Kesserling’s dad was a guest on the Cult podcast the other day.

    It was a really interesting listen – back in the day he was an AHL player but, more recently, a US high school hockey coach. It was really interesting to hear him talk about the US high school, prep school, USHL and USDL programs.

    WIth his kid, Michael, as NorthEastern this past year, he watched a ton of US college hockey and gave some cool thoughts on Brindamour, Kesserling, Rasanen, Kemp, etc.

    Talking about signing Kesserling (which is a few years away, obviously), he talked about he and Michael have no issue signing with Edmonton, Canadian boy, etc. Obviously situation at the time, etc. will be the major factor.

    I suggest a listen if you’ve got half an hour.

  35. Lowetide says:

    For The Athletic Setting the record straight on Oilers prospect Cooper Marody’s past, present and future

    https://theathletic.com/1910219/2020/07/05/lowetide-setting-the-record-straight-on-oilers-prospect-cooper-marodys-future/

  36. Scungilli Slushy says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    Kelly Kesserling, Michael Kesserling’s dad was a guest on the Cult podcast the other day.

    It was a really interesting listen – back in the day he was an AHL player but, more recently, a US high school hockey coach.It was really interesting to hear him talk about the US high school, prep school, USHL and USDL programs.

    WIth his kid, Michael, as NorthEastern this past year, he watched a ton of US college hockey and gave some cool thoughts on Brindamour, Kesserling, Rasanen, Kemp, etc.

    Talking about signing Kesserling (which is a few years away, obviously), he talked about he and Michael have no issue signing with Edmonton, Canadian boy, etc. Obviously situation at the time, etc. will be the major factor.

    I suggest a listen if you’ve got half an hour.

    Thanks OP

    Remember nobody has as much time as you do bcs you don’t sleep 🙂

  37. OriginalPouzar says:

    godot10:
    Jujhar is going to be 26 next season.He is on a cheap contract with one year left. He is effective in a specialty role (killing penalties, physicality, can play centre in a pinch).He will satisfy one of the minimum conditions for making available players in the expansioin draft.

    He is entering the prime years of his career.

    Holland should NOT trade him in the off-season.Roll-the-dice for one more year.

    This off-season is NOT the off-season to give up on him.

    I agree except we may be seeing that he is a better center than winger – sample size alert – as oppossed to “can play center in a pinch”.

    I think there will be plenty of forwards that meet the games played requirement for exposure – I think its likely they protect four d-men which means the likes of Neal, AA, Kassian, Archie, Benson (who will play this year and be re-signed) will be available.

    Of course, things could change (re: expansion draft strategy) in year.

  38. OriginalPouzar says:

    slopitch:
    Mantha would be considered a successful Holland size pick. Would sure look good in oilers silks.

    Jesse P would also be a player with size. Damn shame hes stumbled so far (blame on team too) but can only hope he recovers. Even as a 3RW who plays 2PP he could be quite valuable. Anthony Mantha played 2 full seasons in the AHL. I bet Holland would set JP up for more success than the last Oilers regime.

    Unfortunately, the AHL isn’t an option for Jesse as he’d be taken on waivers.

    His agent ensuring he played 10 games as an 18 year old dropped his waiver exempt years from 5 to 3 which, ultimately, was a massive disservice to the player – dropped his trade value as a team couldn’t acquire him with the aim of developing him in the AHL (if required).

    With that said, this past season in Liiga was a development year for Jesse and, absolutely, I hope we see him at training camp (for next season, not the post-season this year, obviously).

  39. OriginalPouzar says:

    Harpers Hair:
    Corey Pronman (@coreypronman) Tweeted:
    And video of Vasili Podkolzin (VAN) from camp today https://t.co/nUuijgvEzj

    KHL trainingcamps underway.

    Ya, I saw that Askarov and a few others were reporting to camp.

    KHL starts on Sept 1, I believe, I knew camps opened in July but, damn, that’s a LONG training camp.

  40. OriginalPouzar says:

    Tragikomix:
    I saw a rummour, Jack Eichel to L A Kings. So what would he cost? Turcotte and 2020 2nd overall?

    Plus…… Eichel is an established elite Hart Trophy caliber center.

    Think about what you would trade Drai for (as a team in Buffalo’s situation, not Edmonton’s).

  41. OriginalPouzar says:

    Bruce McCurdy: JFJ cumulative stats thru first 3 NHL seasons 2005-08: 53 GP, 0-0-0, -17.

    0 points in 53 games. That’s weak production for a goalie, let alone a forward.

    The -17 was earned on the basis of 2 (two) GF, 19 GA, for a GF% of 9.5%.

    On my short list of worst defensive forwards I’ve ever seen, & the offence speaks for itself.

    Pat Quinn’s response? Put him on the first line.

    Agreed!

    I’m serious about my initial post – I remember thinking at the time when he made a solid neutral zone play and got the puck deep, dozens and dozens of NHL games in to his career, “that’s the best play he’s ever made in the NHL”…..

  42. OriginalPouzar says:

    Scungilli Slushy: Thanks OP

    Remember nobody has as much time as you do bcs you don’t sleep

    Old news – I don’t workout at 3 am any more but at a more reasonable hour – OP gets his sleep now!

  43. Woogie63 says:

    JJ agent should send him all the film he can watch on Riley Sheanan.

  44. OriginalPouzar says:

    Bob McKenzie
    @TSNBobMcKenzie
    ·
    18m
    NHL and NHLPA have finalized tentative agreement on RTP Phase 3/4 protocols but are continuing to work on finalizing the details of the CBA MOU.
    Bob McKenzie
    @TSNBobMcKenzie

    ·
    15m
    The entire package — RTP and CBA — will need to be ratified by NHLPA executive committee and then a full membership vote but no ratification will take place until the CBA MOU is complete. Also will require ratification by NHL Board of Governors.

    ——————-

    Lets hope those return to play protocols for Phase 3 are “tightened up” from “players asked to stay home as much as possible during the last week of camp”.

  45. OriginalPouzar says:

    As per Chris Johnston:

    NHL players have until 5 p.m. ET on Tuesday to notify their teams they’re opting out of participating in Phase 3 or 4, under the protocols tentatively agreed upon by the NHL and NHLPA.

    There is no penalty for doing so

  46. OriginalPouzar says:

    Per McKenzie:

    There is a detailed breakdown of players returning to their home cities and what the quarantine requirements, ranging from 14 days to 7 days, depending on a myriad of circumstances that include mode of transportation, where they are coming from and testing.

  47. jp says:

    Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual:
    While I’d prefer a buyout of Neal this offseason, I wanted to put forward an idea that was suggested as an option to free us of Lucic but to apply it to Neal instead: Neal for Turris.

    Nashville gets a shorter deal with the same ease of buyout and Edmonton gets a R shot 3C for cap money that’s already a sunk cost. If Turris can’t make it work as a 3C (likely alongside AA or Ennis and Chiasson), then we buy him out two years from now and the buyout cap hit of ~2mil would expire at the same time as if we had bought Neal out this year. Maybe we can get Nashville to retain the 250k to even things out.

    I won’t say I’d prefer a Neal buyout but I think it might be necessary and I expect there’s a solid chance it happens.

    I’ve suggested Neal for Turris before as well and agree it makes some sense. Turris isn’t anything special but he’s at least as good 3C right now as Neal is a 3LW. Turris has the extra year but he’s also 2 years younger so he’s (theoretically) a better bet to maintain his current level/production than Neal.

    I guess the 2 questions are:

    1) Would be Predators be interested? It’s not at all clear they would be…

    2) Is Turris a better answer at 3C than a $4M FA? The Oilers would be taking on an extra year at $6M (or an extra 2 years of $2M on a buyout) in a Neal/Turris trade. If Turris isn’t demonstrably better than a $4M FA then why would the Oilers add him rather than just buying out Neal?

    I don’t think the answer to 2) is yes. So even though I’ve suggested before that Turris for Neal might make sense I’m not sure it actually helps the Oilers at all..

  48. jp says:

    OriginalPouzar,

    Thanks for all the updates.

  49. Munny says:

    jp,

    I think we’ve been over this before… but looking at last season, he’s not a great face off artist, gets a zone push when the play is dead (perhaps because he’s not a great FOer), and rarely PKs.

    If the two contracts ended the same year, I’d consider a Neal for Turris deal… just because of re-balancing positions and to buy McLeod a year or so.

    But I’d hope to find better.

  50. OriginalPouzar says:

    As per Chris Johnston:

    Every NHL team is required to bring at least one content creator/social media employee with them inside the bubble during Phase 4.

    ——————

    Unless things have changed, each org will only be allowed 50 people max.

    Also, coaches won’t be required to wear masks behind the bench.

    If a player tests positive for COVID-19 or develops symptoms in either Phase 3 and 4, teams are not permitted to share that information with the media or public absent prior approval from the NHL (in consultation with the NHLPA)

    As per Pagnotta:

    A clause in the RTP doc says that (paraphrasing) if a player who undergoes a medical exam & it’s determined by that Dr. & club’s infectious disease expert that he’s high risk of “serious illness” due to exposure to coronavirus will not be allowed to take part in Phases 3&4

  51. Munny says:

    OriginalPouzar,

    That seems like it should read “allowed” not “required”.

  52. Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual says:

    jp: I won’t say I’d prefer a Neal buyout but I think it might be necessary and I expect there’s a solid chance it happens.

    I’ve suggested Neal for Turris before as well and agree it makes some sense. Turris isn’t anything special but he’s at least as good 3C right now as Neal is a 3LW. Turris has the extra year but he’s also 2 years younger so he’s (theoretically) a better bet to maintain his current level/production than Neal.

    I guess the 2 questions are:

    1) Would be Predators be interested? It’s not at all clear they would be…

    2) Is Turris a better answer at 3C than a $4M FA? The Oilers would be taking on an extra year at $6M (or an extra 2 years of $2M on a buyout) in a Neal trade. If Turris isn’t demonstrably better than a $4M FA then why would the Oilers add him rather than just buying out Neal?

    I don’t think the answer to 2) is yes. So even though I’ve suggested before that Turris for Neal might make sense I’m not sure it actually helps the Oilers at all..

    I think the Preds would be interested if only to get the deal that’s 1 year shorter- whether by buyout or to play it out. They’re deep at C and have an obscene number of R shots on their team.

    As for the second question, the plan would be to buyout Turris 2 seasons after acquisition making for a cap neutral move when compared with a Neal buyout this year (2mil) and a 3C addition(4mil). Allow me to visualize the scenario:

    Neal: 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil
    3C: 4mil / 4mil / 4mil? / 4mil? / 0 / 0

    VS

    Turris: 6mil / 6mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil

    So the cap risk is essentially flat and I don’t think Turris would be enough of a burden on the team to think we’d suffer too much in either year that he’s under contract for. It comes down to whether a UFA 3 C option would be unequivocally better and I don’t think I see anyone that fits that bill. Soderberg is about the only option I see as better than Turris and, while he’s good, he’s also going to be 35 in October.

    If we want to talk trade acquisitions then it could be a different story but then there’s an acquisition cost associated. I pretty much view it as a cap neutral way to test out a plausible 3C option.

  53. jp says:

    Reja:
    My 3 bets as of now who make the most impact are Benson LagessonBouchard. I also wouldn’t be shocked if Lavoie finds his niche on this team quickly, I could see him as Connor’s shoot first, work the corners, bang in rebounds in close with his size and skill winger by the new year.

    Is this of all Oilers prospects? I’d definitely include Broberg myself.

    Lagesson may well be an NHL D but he’ll probably be as a 3rd pairing guy (he’s already 24 after all). Also, he’s pretty blocked on the Oilers, if he does make it as an NHL regular it’s as likely to be for another team than it is for the Oilers, IMO. I’m pretty comfortable saying Broberg has a higher upside and is more likely to make an impact than Lagesson.

    I’d probably pick Lavoie over Benson too if we’re talking impact (but it’s close). I agree Benson should be an NHLer, just not sure it will be on McDavid or Draisaitl’s wing.

  54. OriginalPouzar says:

    Elliotte Friedman
    @FriedgeHNIC

    Circumstances for Postponement, Delay, or Cancellation of Phase 3…

    At any time either before the commencement of, or during, Phase 3, either the NHL or the NHLPA believes that conditions, in which the commencement or continuation of Phase 3 would likely create a material risk to the integrity of the competition anticipated in Phase 4, are imminent or may have emerged, which conditions may include an uncontrolled outbreak of COVID-19 in the Players of one or more Clubs participating in Phase 3, that party shall immediately notify the other
    of its belief, following which the parties shall jointly consult with the NHL Chief Medical Officer, the NHLPA Medical Consultant, participating Players, General Managers, and such infectious diseases experts as they may consider advisable. Thereafter the Commissioner
    (or a person designated by him) shall make a determination after consultation with the Executive Director of the NHLPA (or a person designated by him) whether to postpone, delay, move or cancel Phase 3. The basis upon which the Commissioner is to make his determination
    to postpone, delay, move, or cancel Phase 3, shall be whether the commencement or continuation of Phase 3 would likely create a material risk to Player health and safety and/or jeopardize the integrity of the competition anticipated in Phase 4
    If the NHLPA is dissatisfied with the determination of the Commissioner, it may contest the matter in the form of an expedited arbitration of a Grievance before the Impartial Arbitrator pursuant to Section 17.17 of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. (END)

  55. OriginalPouzar says:

    Elliotte Friedman
    @FriedgeHNIC
    ·
    46m
    Return to Play Stage 4 states, “Individuals leaving…without permission may be subject to consequences up to and including removal.” In addition, “violations…will result in, for clubs, significant penalties, potentially including fines and/or loss of draft choices.”

    ————–

    Don’t Fucking Sneak Out!

  56. OriginalPouzar says:

    As per Seravelli, families will be able to join the players in the hub for the conference finals and SCF.

    ————–

    Presumably they will be under a quarantine of sorts in the time leading up.

  57. OriginalPouzar says:

    Confirmed teams can have 30 skaters (and unlimited goalies in stage 3).

    Teams have to submit the list by July 9.

    I believe that is reduced to 28 for stage 4 but haven’t seen that made official with all the info currently coming out.

  58. OriginalPouzar says:

    No fitness testing permitted at camps.

  59. OriginalPouzar says:

    No dress code in Stage 4 – i like that!

  60. jp says:

    Munny:
    jp,

    I think we’ve been over this before… but looking at last season, he’s not a great face off artist, gets a zone push when the play is dead (perhaps because he’s not a great FOer), and rarely PKs.

    If the two contracts ended the same year, I’d consider a Neal for Turris deal… just because of re-balancing positions and to buy McLeod a year or so.

    But I’d hope to find better.

    Yeah, Turris isn’t a “3C”, more a crappy 2C. He’s not suited to the Sheahan role at all but I think he’d be far superior to Haas in the role he played (tertiary scoring line and all around decent at hockey).

    The team alignment would need to be different than this year (ie – no DZ line). But it’s not hard to imagine a Turris line (centering players like Ennis, Chiasson, Benson, Puljujarvi, Archibald?) playing ~28% TOI vs elites (like Sheahan did) and scoring way more than Haas’s line did this year.

    Agreed, I’d hope to find better too, but there are ways to incorporate Turris that do make the team better, I think.

    PS – no one should be waiting on McLeod to fill 3C. It could happen for sure, but I don’t think it’s probable. Definitely far far from a certainty.

  61. Harpers Hair says:

    Frank Seravalli (@frank_seravalli) Tweeted:
    The number of people scheduled to be tested daily in #NHL bubble is incredible. List includes: any player/coach/staff member, officials, ice crew, security, hotel bartenders, food service staff, arena food and beverage, hotel housekeeping, hotel kitchen staff, transportation.

  62. OriginalPouzar says:

    The daily testing in the hub, well “secure zone” as they are calling it, extends well beyond hockey personnel and includes ice crew, security, hotel bartenders, food service staff, arena food and beverage staff, hotel housekeeping, hotel kitchen staff, transportation staff, etc.

    As per Seravelli.

  63. OriginalPouzar says:

    jp: I won’t say I’d prefer a Neal buyout but I think it might be necessary and I expect there’s a solid chance it happens.

    I’ve suggested Neal for Turris before as well and agree it makes some sense. Turris isn’t anything special but he’s at least as good 3C right now as Neal is a 3LW. Turris has the extra year but he’s also 2 years younger so he’s (theoretically) a better bet to maintain his current level/production than Neal.

    I guess the 2 questions are:

    1) Would be Predators be interested? It’s not at all clear they would be…

    2) Is Turris a better answer at 3C than a $4M FA? The Oilers would be taking on an extra year at $6M (or an extra 2 years of $2M on a buyout) in a Neal/Turris trade. If Turris isn’t demonstrably better than a $4M FA then why would the Oilers add him rather than just buying out Neal?

    I don’t think the answer to 2) is yes. So even though I’ve suggested before that Turris for Neal might make sense I’m not sure it actually helps the Oilers at all..

    Soderberg for 1-2 years vs. Turris?

    Soderberg is more of a PK guy than Turris….

  64. OriginalPouzar says:

    jp: Is this of all Oilers prospects? I’d definitely include Broberg myself.

    Lagesson may well be an NHL D but he’ll probably be as a 3rd pairing guy (he’s already 24 after all). Also, he’s pretty blocked on the Oilers, if he does make it as an NHL regular it’s as likely to be for another team than it is for the Oilers, IMO. I’m pretty comfortable saying Broberg has a higher upside and is more likely to make an impact than Lagesson.

    I’d probably pick Lavoie over Benson too if we’re talking impact (but it’s close). I agree Benson should be an NHLer, just not sure it will be on McDavid or Draisaitl’s wing.

    Sure Lagesson is already 24 but Rafferty is 25 and is a “sure fire 2nd pairing d-man” (while having less NHL games on his resume than Lagesson).

  65. jp says:

    Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual: I think the Preds would be interested if only to get the deal that’s 1 year shorter- whether by buyout or to play it out. They’re deep at C and have an obscene number of R shots on their team.

    As for the second question, the plan would be to buyout Turris 2 seasons after acquisition making for a cap neutral move when compared with a Neal buyout this year (2mil) and a 3C addition(4mil). Allow me to visualize the scenario:

    Neal: 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil
    3C: 4mil / 4mil / 4mil? / 4mil? / 0 / 0

    VS

    Turris: 6mil / 6mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil

    So the cap risk is essentially flat and I don’t think Turris would be enough of a burden on the team to think we’d suffer too much in either year that he’s under contract for. It comes down to whether a UFA 3 C option would be unequivocally better and I don’t think I see anyone that fits that bill. Soderberg is about the only option I see as better than Turris and, while he’s good, he’s also going to be 35 in October.

    If we want to talk trade acquisitions then it could be a different story but then there’s an acquisition cost associated. I pretty much view it as a cap neutral way to test out a plausible 3C option.

    Yeah when you lay out the buyouts (with that timing) then it seems pretty reasonable. Not much risk (if the plan is to buy Neal out this off-season).

    At the same time (as above) Turris is not a typical 3C. He’s a guy to centre your 3rd offensive line (not necessarily a bad thing).

    Sure a UFA 3C may not be unequivocally better but I still think it’s a decent bet. Soderberg I’m pretty sure has been a consistently super player in recent years. Yes he’s 35 but he likely also won’t cost $4M. And could Haula be added for around $4M?

    Anyway, Neal/Turris is not the worst idea for sure. I’m just not convinced it’s a plus.

  66. jp says:

    OriginalPouzar: Soderberg for 1-2 years vs. Turris?

    Soderberg is more of a PK guy than Turris….

    Agreed (though you can’t be sure Soderberg will choose Edmonton for <$4M though).

  67. pts2pndr says:

    Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual: I think the Preds would be interested if only to get the deal that’s 1 year shorter- whether by buyout or to play it out. They’re deep at C and have an obscene number of R shots on their team.

    As for the second question, the plan would be to buyout Turris 2 seasons after acquisition making for a cap neutral move when compared with a Neal buyout this year (2mil) and a 3C addition(4mil). Allow me to visualize the scenario:

    Neal: 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil
    3C: 4mil / 4mil / 4mil? / 4mil? / 0 / 0

    VS

    Turris: 6mil / 6mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil / 2mil

    So the cap risk is essentially flat and I don’t think Turris would be enough of a burden on the team to think we’d suffer too much in either year that he’s under contract for. It comes down to whether a UFA 3 C option would be unequivocally better and I don’t think I see anyone that fits that bill. Soderberg is about the only option I see as better than Turris and, while he’s good, he’s also going to be 35 in October.

    If we want to talk trade acquisitions then it could be a different story but then there’s an acquisition cost associated. I pretty much view it as a cap neutral way to test out a plausible 3C option.

    What if McLeod shows he is ready after one more season in AHL? The answer to our third line centre could be right around the corner.?

  68. Harpers Hair says:

    OriginalPouzar: Sure Lagesson is already 24 but Rafferty is 25 and is a “sure fire 2nd pairing d-man” (while having less NHL games on his resume than Lagesson).

    Rafferty is indeed 9 months older.

    Lagesson has played in 91 AHL games and scored 37 points.

    Rafferty has played 57 AHL games and scored 45 points.

    One of these is not like the other.

    Sitting on an NHL bench for 8 games and not impacting the game in any way and five bucks will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

  69. godot10 says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    As per Chris Johnston:

    Every NHL team is required to bring at least one content creator/social media employee with them inside the bubble during Phase 4.

    ——————

    Unless things have changed, each org will only be allowed 50 people max.

    Also, coaches won’t be required to wear masks behind the bench.

    If a player tests positive for COVID-19 or develops symptoms in either Phase 3 and 4, teams are not permitted to share that information with the media or public absent prior approval from the NHL (in consultation with the NHLPA)

    As per Pagnotta:

    A clause in the RTP doc says that (paraphrasing) if a player who undergoes a medical exam & it’s determined by that Dr. & club’s infectious disease expert that he’s high risk of “serious illness” due to exposure to coronavirus will not be allowed to take part in Phases 3&4

    I don’t think coaches should wear masks, but there are some good face shields out there that I think would be appropriate and wouldn’t impede them from feeling normal.

  70. Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual says:

    pts2pndr: What if McLeod shows he is ready after one more season in AHL? The answer to our third line centre could be right around the corner.

    In the unlikely event that he IS ready for such then great, we’ll have our replacement for Turris and can shift Turris to the RW to replace Chiasson for a season. However, winning teams don’t bank on low the likelihood of that being the case- not to mention there being no hiccups in his performance. Having a backup option in Turris would still be advisable.

    Further, that’s AFTER this coming season so it doesn’t fill the void that needs to be filled. The competitive window is open now.

  71. N64 says:

    OriginalPouzar: and/or jeopardize the integrity of the competition anticipated in Phase 4

    This is the soft spot. it would only take one team slammed hard especially close to phase 4 to impinge on competitive integrity. Very significant risk of not getting to phase 4.

  72. pts2pndr says:

    jp: Yeah, Turris isn’t a “3C”, more a crappy 2C. He’s not suited to the Sheahan role at all but I think he’d be far superior to Haas in the role he played (tertiary scoring line and all around decent at hockey).

    The team alignment would need to be different than this year (ie – no DZ line). But it’s not hard to imagine a Turris line (centering players like Ennis, Chiasson, Benson, Puljujarvi, Archibald?) playing ~28% TOI vs elites (like Sheahan did) and scoring way more than Haas’s line did this year.

    Agreed, I’d hope to find better too, but there are ways to incorporate Turris that do make the team better, I think.

    PS – no one should be waiting on McLeod to fill 3C. It could happen for sure, but I don’t think it’s probable. Definitely far far from a certainty.

    McLeod is a better bet than trading a slow wagon with two front wheels for a newer wagon with two back wheels. With three quality Centers on the team although one plays the wing there is cover for a a young centre for short periods if required. Neal for Turris is in my opinion, a poor sideways move at very best.

  73. Ryan says:

    Harpers Hair: Rafferty is indeed 9 months older.

    Lagesson has played in 91 AHL games and scored 37 points.

    Rafferty has played 57 AHL games and scored 45 points.

    One of these is not like the other.

    Sitting on an NHL bench for 8 games and not impacting the game in any way and five bucks will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

    Rafferty is a now 25-year-old undrafted defenseman.

    20 of his 45 points last season came on the power play. As a guy you probably want to see as a #7, you probably don’t want him on your NHL power play.

    He also doesn’t have much of a shot, so I’d be surprised if he scores much at the NHL level.

    He’s a smart 2-way player at the AHL level that’s good at jumping in on the rush, but he’s neither a guy who rushes the puck up the ice, nor an outlet wizard.

    He’s not a great skater and gets beat wide regularly.

    I’d be surprised if he’s ever more than a bottom pairing guy or a 6/7.

  74. Harpers Hair says:

    Ryan: Rafferty is a now 25-year-old undrafted defenseman.

    20 of his 45 points last season came on the power play. As a guy you probably want to see as a #7, you probably don’t want him on your NHL power play.

    He also doesn’t have much of a shot, so I’d be surprised if he scores much at the NHL level.

    He’s a smart 2-way player at the AHL level that’s good at jumping in on the rush,but he’s neither a guy who rushes the puck up the ice, nor an outlet wizard.

    He’s not a great skater and gets beat wide regularly.

    I’d be surprised if he’s ever more than a bottom pairing guy or a 6/7.

    Couple of rather bold assumptions there.

    It’s quite likely he would play on the Canucks second PP unit.

    Here is a scouting report from someone who actually has seen him play.

    “Brogan Rafferty was as advertised, very impressive.

    He is the Comets top defenseman on a team with deployment in offensive zone faceoffs, short handed and of course the top PP unit.

    He carried the puck with ease through the neutral zone, made zone entry look easy, was the trigger on the point with a heavy shot. Some of the cons I noticed were he was at times a little aggressive offensively and it didn’t happen in the game I was at, but it will lead to breakaway and odd man rushes against.

    Rafferty was easily the best defenseman in the game for either team including Olle Juolevi and Erik Brannstrom”

    https://dobberprospects.com/prospects-ramblings-brogan-rafferty-scouting-notes-zayde-wisdom-and-midseason-guide/

    Kinda looks like you’re way off base.

    From Elite Prospects:

    “A smart two-way D-man that likes to get involved in all three zones. Showcases smooth skating ability and, while not always the fastest guy on the ice, a willingness to backcheck quickly. Positionally sound, Rafferty isn’t caught off-guard often or found in disadvantageous situations. Transitions up-ice quickly and makes good decisions consistently. Could work on physicality and getting his stick in lanes, but isn’t weak in his own end. All-in-all, a solid all-around defender with lots of raw potential to be refined.”

    And from Craig Button:

    Button: Brogan Rafferty can play for the Canucks right now
    TSN director of scouting Craig Button feels that Canucks prospect Brogan Rafferty is ready to play in the NHL now, and Button thinks that Rafferty will be a second pair defenceman in the league. Button went on to say that he feels that Vasili Podkolzin and Nils Hoglander could play for the Canucks as early as next year.

    https://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040/button-brogan-rafferty-can-play-for-the-canucks-right-now-1.1453931

  75. Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual says:

    jp:
    Anyway, Neal/Turris is not the worst idea for sure. I’m just not convinced it’s a plus.

    Fair enough.

    I think it’s a least an improvement on Neal so the team would be better year over year. Worth mentioning that we have to compete with other teams and be confident we could convince a 3C to come here and play the tough minutes.

  76. OriginalPouzar says:

    pts2pndr: What if McLeod shows he is ready after one more season in AHL? The answer to our third line centre could be right around the corner.

    I guess he could absolutely pop but I would posit him being ready for 3C in the NHL next season been highly unreasonable.

    He wasn’t even a full time 3C in the AHL – splitting time between 3C and the wing.

    I don’t imagine that Holland, of all GMs, will try and fast-track him to the NHL.

    I would think a full year of playing center in the AHL, mostly top 6 center, plus both special teams is what should be envisioned for this coming season.

  77. Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual says:

    pts2pndr: McLeod is a better bet than trading a slow wagon with two front wheels for a newer wagon with two back wheels. With three quality Centers on the team although one plays the wing there is cover for a a young centre for short periods if required. Nealfor Turris is in my opinion, a poor sideways move at very best.

    Rookie 3Cs successfully playing the tough minutes don’t strike me as much of a likelihood and especially not one that a team that needs to be pursuing a Cup should even remotely consider. McLeod can factor in once he’s had a cup of coffee and can assert his game in the AHL; until then, he’s but a hope and a prayer.

  78. OriginalPouzar says:

    Harpers Hair: Rafferty is indeed 9 months older.

    Lagesson has played in 91 AHL games and scored 37 points.

    Rafferty has played 57 AHL games and scored 45 points.

    One of these is not like the other.

    Sitting on an NHL bench for 8 games and not impacting the game in any way and five bucks will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

    Of course noone here is saying that Laggeson is a sure-fire 2nd pairing d-man this coming year – I’ve heard that Rafferty is – someone too good to trade for any of Bear, Klefbom or Bouchard.

    Considering Rafferty is an offensive d-man and Lagesson is a defensive d-man first, those numbers shine Lagesson in an even brighter light – thank you for that.

    I won’t even go in to the fact that Lagesson’s points are almost entirety at even strength – he led the Condors D in 5 on 5 scoring in 2018/19 (while NHL players Jones and Bear were on the team).

  79. OriginalPouzar says:

    Bob McKenzie
    @TSNBobMcKenzie
    ·
    3m
    Cannot stress enough that dates are extremely fluid, but if the CBA MOU is tentatively agreed to tonight or tomorrow, with ratification to follow this week, the target of opening training camps (Phase 3) on Monday July 13 is still believed to be within the realm of possibility.

    If that date doesn’t get pushed back, as previously reported, teams could report to the Hub cities of Toronto (Eastern Conference) and Edmonton (Western Conference) on or about July 26 with meaningful games (Phase 4) to begin play on or about Aug. 1.

  80. Ryan says:

    Ryan,

    Willy Legs had 0.4 ppg ES in his 22/23 AHL season.

    Brogdan watching from the rafters Raffery had 0.44 ppg even strength in his 24/25 AHL season.

    Also 0.12 gpg Es vs 0.07.

    Neither have rocket boots.

    Legs is taller, stronger, and far meaner. He has draft pedigree… and debuted in the AHL two seasons sooner while posting similar even strength numbers though not his calling card.

    Both guys are fighting for a role as a #6/7 dman.

    One of these is more like the other than you’d think.

  81. OriginalPouzar says:

    N64: This is the soft spot. it would only take one team slammed hard especially close to phase 4 to impinge on competitive integrity. Very significant risk of not getting to phase 4.

    Yup – perhaps the league should mandate players to a “home and rink quarantine” during training camp……. or the teams should.

    Players strutting around Tampa, Phoenix, Vegas, Dallas, St. Louis, etc. as they please on the even of travelling to EDM/TOR is not acceptable – I don’t care how much testing is being done.

  82. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Harpers Hair: Couple of rather bold assumptions there.

    It’s quite likely he would play on the Canucks second PP unit.

    Here is a scouting report from someone who actually has seen him play.

    “Brogan Rafferty was as advertised, very impressive.

    He is the Comets top defenseman on a team with deployment in offensive zone faceoffs, short handed and of course the top PP unit.

    He carried the puck with ease through the neutral zone, made zone entry look easy, was the trigger on the point with a heavy shot. Some of the cons I noticed were he was at times a little aggressive offensively and it didn’t happen in the game I was at, but it will lead to breakaway and odd man rushes against.

    Rafferty was easily the best defenseman in the game for either team including Olle Juolevi and Erik Brannstrom”

    https://dobberprospects.com/prospects-ramblings-brogan-rafferty-scouting-notes-zayde-wisdom-and-midseason-guide/

    Kinda looks like you’re way off base.

    From Elite Prospects:

    “A smart two-way D-man that likes to get involved in all three zones. Showcases smooth skating ability and, while not always the fastest guy on the ice, a willingness to backcheck quickly. Positionally sound, Rafferty isn’t caught off-guard often or found in disadvantageous situations. Transitions up-ice quickly and makes good decisions consistently. Could work on physicality and getting his stick in lanes, but isn’t weak in his own end. All-in-all, a solid all-around defender with lots of raw potential to be refined.”

    “Rafferty was easily the best defenseman in the game for either team including Olle Juolevi and Erik Brannstrom. Keep in mind Rafferty is 24-years-old and may not have the same long term upside as either”

    Let’s use the whole piece of information you quoted.

  83. N64 says:

    Seravalli confirms finals not in Toronto

    Frank Seravalli
    @frank_seravalli
    #NHL Phase 4 protocol says players’ families will be allowed to join for Conference Finals and Stanley Cup Final in Edmonton and will be allowed to share hotel rooms

  84. Side says:

    godot10: I don’t think coaches should wear masks, but there are some good face shields out there that I think would be appropriate and wouldn’t impede them from feeling normal.

    Don’t think face shields will do enough compared to a mask. Face shield wouldn’t slow the velocity of water droplets like a mask would.

    Nevermind if a coach is upset and yelling. Would the shield fog up requiring something to wipe all of those delicious moisture droplets away?

    I thought the face shield is to compliment a mask. Unless you are talking about some fancy shield.

  85. Ryan says:

    Scungilli Slushy: “Rafferty was easily the best defenseman in the game for either team including Olle Juolevi and Erik Brannstrom. Keep in mind Rafferty is 24-years-old and may not have the same long term upside as either”

    Let’s use the whole piece of information you quoted.

    I liked this scouting report:

    “ Brogan Rafferty will not change the look of the team’s defence, as he plays a style that is reminiscent of the type of game offered by the Canucks’ current defenders. He may be a sufficient seventh defenceman next season with some remaining potential to grow as a player.””

    https://www.nucksmisconduct.com/2020/4/14/21208191/brogan-rafferty-ahl-analysis-cambiekev

  86. Scungilli Slushy says:

    The only PPE that would be worth wearing is a fit tested, double checked when put on, at least half face, silicone or rubber face piece cartridge style respirators.

    Zero droplet / aerosol transmission, or don’t bother.

    All, we are at the point now where there is multitudes of reading available out there from educated and directly knowledgeable credible people, on Covid 19 and the transmission of respiratory viruses of this strain.

    Covid 19 behaves the same way as the other similar viruses, as was indicated by many people from the very beginning, who were villianized and now have been proven correct (without due apologies and acknowledments).

    What our provincial and federal govt’s are peddling now is ass covering, flip flopping, unscientific nonsense, sadly, yet again.

    Masks other than what I described (or fed air respirators) are only actually helpful for psychological reasons. They cannot stop transmission of this type of virus because of the laws of basic physics, and basic common sense.

  87. Harpers Hair says:

    Ryan: I liked this scouting report:

    “ Brogan Rafferty will not change the look of the team’s defence, as he plays a style that is reminiscent of the type of game offered by the Canucks’ current defenders. He may be a sufficient seventh defenceman next season with some remaining potential to grow as a player.””

    https://www.nucksmisconduct.com/2020/4/14/21208191/brogan-rafferty-ahl-analysis-cambiekev

    Yeah, Cambie Kev is an accomplished talent evaluator,

    I’d take his word any day over Elite Prospects, Dobber Hockey and Craig Button.

    What the hell do they know.

  88. OriginalPouzar says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    As per Chris Johnston:

    NHL players have until 5 p.m. ET on Tuesday to notify their teams they’re opting out of participating in Phase 3 or 4, under the protocols tentatively agreed upon by the NHL and NHLPA.

    There is no penalty for doing so

    Friedman’s updated this and deadline to “opt out” will be 3 days after ratification.

  89. Harpers Hair says:

    OriginalPouzar: Of course noone here is saying that Laggeson is a sure-fire 2nd pairing d-man this coming year – I’ve heard that Rafferty is – someone too good to trade for any of Bear, Klefbom or Bouchard.

    Considering Rafferty is an offensive d-man and Lagesson is a defensive d-man first, those numbers shine Lagesson in an even brighter light – thank you for that.

    I won’t even go in to the fact that Lagesson’s points are almost entirety at even strength – he led the Condors D in 5 on 5 scoring in 2018/19 (while NHL players Jones and Bear were on the team).

    Yep, no doubt Lagesson”s D work shines like a National Guitar.

    GP-8 G-0 A-0. MINUS 4.

  90. Lowetide says:

    On a rational blog, you know, with people who understood nothing would get accomplished on the internet, someone would write “well when it comes to Rafferty versus Lagesson, the next five years will tell us the whole story.”

  91. BornInAGretzkyJersey says:

    Jaxon,

    I’m sorry, but I can’t get behind this idea. I typically like to love your posts, but this is revisionist history kind of thinking. It makes no sense to equivocate the current context to the past, times have changed.

    Perhaps an asterisk is helpful to note the number of teams in the league when discussing historical drafts against the modern era.

    Maybe it’s just me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  92. jp says:

    pts2pndr: McLeod is a better bet than trading a slow wagon with two front wheels for a newer wagon with two back wheels. With three quality Centers on the team although one plays the wing there is cover for a a young centre for short periods if required. Nealfor Turris is in my opinion, a poor sideways move at very best.

    I agree Neal for Turris would be a largely lateral move. But McLeod, he’s got a long way to go before he’s in the conversation for an NHL job. And it would be a long way from there to being 3C.

    If things go well he could be the Oilers 3C in a few years. But there’s no way that Holland is counting on any type of future NHL contribution from McLeod, never mind 3C in the short term.

  93. Harpers Hair says:

    Brian Lawton (@brianlawton9) Tweeted:
    In surveying with various Agents that are working overtime through this process speaking with their clients the strong feeling is the vote will pass easily but won’t be unanimous. Think 70-30/ 80-20. @NHLNetwork

  94. OriginalPouzar says:

    Harpers Hair: Yeah, Cambie Kev is an accomplished talent evaluator,

    I’d take his word any day over Elite Prospects, Dobber Hockey and Craig Button.

    What the hell do they know.

    Why don’t you take their words when they ALL have Bouchard as a more valuable asset than Rafferty?

  95. OriginalPouzar says:

    Harpers Hair: Yep, no doubt Lagesson”s D work shines like a National Guitar.

    GP-8 G-0 A-0. MINUS 4.

    What does “sure-fire 2nd pairing d-man Brogan Rafferty’s” NHL stat line look like at 25?

  96. jp says:

    Scungilli Slushy:
    The only PPE that would be worth wearing is a fit tested, double checked when put on, at least half face, silicone or rubber face piece cartridge style respirators.

    Zero droplet / aerosol transmission, or don’t bother.

    All, we are at the point now where there is multitudes of reading available out there from educated and directly knowledgeable credible people, on Covid 19 and the transmission of respiratory viruses of this strain.

    Covid 19 behaves the same way as the other similar viruses, as was indicated by many people from the very beginning, who were villianized and now have been proven correct (without due apologies and acknowledments).

    What our provincial and federal govt’s are peddling now is ass covering, flip flopping, unscientific nonsense, sadly, yet again.

    Masks other than what I described (or fed air respirators) are only actually helpful for psychological reasons. They cannot stop transmission of this type of virus because of the laws of basic physics, and basic common sense.

    Wow.

    There is a HUGE amount of space between “helpful” and “stop transmission” 100%. The actual world resides there.

  97. Harpers Hair says:

    OriginalPouzar: Why don’t you take their words when they ALL have Bouchard as a more valuable asset than Rafferty?

    Oops.
    https://edmontonjournal.com/sports/hockey/nhl/cult-of-hockey/not-close-to-nhl-ready-evan-bouchard-not-on-tsns-list-of-top-50-nhl-prospects

  98. Scungilli Slushy says:

    OriginalPouzar: Old news – I don’t workout at 3 am any more but at a more reasonable hour – OP gets his sleep now!

    Good to hear!

    Healthier, even for the healthy

  99. OriginalPouzar says:
  100. maudite says:

    LT:

    Can you put “rafferty” in the auto filter?

  101. N64 says:

    maudite:
    LT:

    Can you put “rafferty” in the auto filter?

    Lol. That would only block DSF. Most everyone else never spells Boppin Rapper T anything like that.

  102. jp says:

    Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual:
    Fair enough.

    I think it’s a least an improvement on Neal so the team would be better year over year. Worth mentioning that we have to compete with other teams and be confident we could convince a 3C to come here and play the tough minutes.

    Agreed the Oilers would be better with Turris next season than Neal. And agreed finding a good 3C replacement isn’t a given, even if the money is there.

    But I still think it’s a good bet that Holland can find something that will help the team more than Neal for Turris. And that also wouldn’t be the worst trade in the last couple of years if it happened.

  103. Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual says:

    jp: Agreed the Oilers would be better with Turris next season than Neal. And agreed finding a good 3C replacement isn’t a given, even if the money is there.

    But I still think it’s a good bet that Holland can find something that will help the team more than Neal for Turris. And that also wouldn’t be the worst trade in the last couple of years if it happened.

    Well, if we’re talking alternatives, I’d love to see if Dallas would be interested in discussing a Puljujarvi for Dickinson(plus?) kind of deal. I think Dickinson has every tool to develop into the perfect 3C: speed, tall frame, two-way acumen and some offense and he fits right in age-wise.

    Dallas could use a R shot W with some upside and they’ve got plenty of Finns including a supposed friend of Jesse in Roope Hintz.

  104. Scungilli Slushy says:

    jp: Wow.

    There is a HUGE amount of space between “helpful” and “stop transmission” 100%. The actual world resides there.

    No, there isn’t.

    A lot of people have deep fear bcs of the misinformation and mixed messages. True fear.

    It’s unnecessary unless they have co-morbidities. But it’s real for them and hurtful.

    If you’re in close quarters for lengths of time sure, can’t hurt – a plane or bus etc.

    Otherwise no, and the wider context has to be considered , where people are so freaked out they turn on each other in the general public over masks, a token gesture.

    Or gloves, improperly used, a bigger germ spreader than bare hands.

    This is not just my opinion but widely available info, which Canadian CMOs have also publicly stated.

    It’s also amazing any person following this blog and the Oilers, even a non Oiler fan and general instigator, could see an AHL tweener as a sure fire NHL bet after the ample evidence we’ve witnessed how it so very likely won’t happen.

  105. jp says:

    Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual: Well, if we’re talking alternatives, I’d love to see if Dallas would be interested in discussing a Puljujarvi for Dickinson(plus?) kind of deal. I think Dickinson has every tool to develop into the perfect 3C: speed, tall frame, two-way acumen and some offense and he fits right in age-wise.

    Dallas could use a R shot W with some upside and they’ve got plenty of Finns including a supposed friend of Jesse in Roope Hintz.

    Yeah Dickinson does look like a pretty solid target. Only real negative I can see is he’s not great on FO.

    I’d prefer something like that (or Russell for Sutter) to Neal for Turris personally. If a (probably) better 3C can be added without buying out Neal I’d prefer to wait another year (or more??) to reduce the pain. And I don’t think Neal is a totally useless hockey player either.

  106. Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual says:

    jp: Yeah Dickinson does look like a pretty solid target. Only real negative I can see is he’s not great on FO.

    I’d prefer something like that (or Russell for Sutter) to Neal for Turris personally. If a (probably) better 3C can be added without buying out Neal I’d prefer to wait another year (or more??) to reduce the pain. And I don’t think Neal is a totally useless hockey player either.

    I could get behind those. My ideal is probably all three of Russell for Sutter, Puljujarvi for Dickinson, and a Neal buyout. I really don’t think there should be a spot for Neal on the team, but I’ll concede that mine’s an extreme position.

  107. jp says:

    Scungilli Slushy:
    No, there isn’t.

    A lot of people have deep fear bcs of the misinformation and mixed messages. True fear.

    It’s unnecessary unless they have co-morbidities. But it’s real for them and hurtful.

    If you’re in close quarters for lengths of time sure, can’t hurt – a plane or bus etc.

    Otherwise no, and the wider context has to be considered , where people are so freaked out they turn on each other in the general public over masks, a token gesture.

    Or gloves, improperly used, a bigger germ spreader than bare hands.

    This is not just my opinion but widely available info, which Canadian CMOs have also publicly stated.

    It’s also amazing any person following this blog and the Oilers, even a non Oiler fan and general instigator, could see an AHL tweener as a sure fire NHL bet after the ample evidence we’ve witnessed how it so very likely won’t happen.

    I don’t know about the level of fear people have over this stuff. And I don’t know what the provincial or federal government’s have been “peddling”, I live in the US these days.

    The post I replied to was about masks. Fear is an entirely different topic.

    Your hand or a piece of cloth or any damn thing over your mouth will reduce the amount of saliva particles you’ll emanate. Those are the main way coronavirus spreads so anything covering your mouth will reduce the spread of the virus.

    Wearing a surgical mask or a bandana will reduce transmission. Those things also won’t guarantee you’re safe from the virus.

    Your logic appears to be “if it’s not 100% effective, it’s not effective at all”. That’s not how it works.

  108. €√¥£€^$ says:

    Scungilli Slushy:
    The only PPE that would be worth wearing is a fit tested, double checked when put on, at least half face, silicone or rubber face piece cartridge style respirators.

    Zero droplet / aerosol transmission, or don’t bother.

    All, we are at the point now where there is multitudes of reading available out there from educated and directly knowledgeable credible people, on Covid 19 and the transmission of respiratory viruses of this strain.

    Covid 19 behaves the same way as the other similar viruses, as was indicated by many people from the very beginning, who were villianized and now have been proven correct (without due apologies and acknowledments).

    What our provincial and federal govt’s are peddling now is ass covering, flip flopping, unscientific nonsense, sadly, yet again.

    Masks other than what I described (or fed air respirators) are only actually helpful for psychological reasons. They cannot stop transmission of this type of virus because of the laws of basic physics, and basic common sense.

    …………………………………………
    …………………………………………

    This guy actually went to effort to see what a mask can do. He used a surgical mask.

    What does a mask do? Blocks respiratory droplets coming from your mouth and throat.Two simple demos:First, I sneezed, sang, talked & coughed toward an agar culture plate with or without a mask. Bacteria colonies show where droplets landed. A mask blocks virtually all of them. pic.twitter.com/ETUD9DFmgU— Rich Davis, PhD, D(ABMM), MLS ??? (@richdavisphd) June 26, 2020

  109. jp says:

    Unfriendly Regional Arachnid Individual: I could get behind those. My ideal is probably all three of Russell for Sutter, Puljujarvi for Dickinson, and a Neal buyout. I really don’t think there should be a spot for Neal on the team, but I’ll concede that mine’s an extreme position.

    I wouldn’t be too disappointed if that’s how the off-season went (hadn’t thought about adding Sutter AND some competition/contingency for him). I’m hope for a little better, but my expectations for Holland are probably inflated.

  110. Material Elvis says:

    Ryan: I liked this scouting report:

    “ Brogan Rafferty will not change the look of the team’s defence, as he plays a style that is reminiscent of the type of game offered by the Canucks’ current defenders. He may be a sufficient seventh defenceman next season with some remaining potential to grow as a player.””

    https://www.nucksmisconduct.com/2020/4/14/21208191/brogan-rafferty-ahl-analysis-cambiekev

    That scouting report was not flattering. Usually, fan analysis is filtered through rose-colored glasses. Kevin Wong doesn’t pull any punches when noting his lack of shot (7 goals his career high),slow processor/passer (doesn’t always see his teammates to complete the easy plays), a tendency to get caught deep, and a tendency to get caught flat-footed that would make him prone to being beaten with outside speed (that’s Connor who blew by you bud).

  111. €√¥£€^$ says:

    “Coke Machines” NHL Draft List 2020:

    There are actually not many forwards in this Draft that are 6’3″ or above. This is a list of guys that can actually make and take a pass.

    Off the top my head they include one of my favourites, Jack Finley who could be gone in late 2nd Round based on MacKenzie’s list.

    Dylan Peterson, who has all the tools (size, speed, skill) and was touted as a potential 1st round pick last year, but was underwhelming. He’ll likely go between 80-100.

    Stony Plain product Owen Pederson, likely 4th or 5th round, who has slow boots, but has shown a goal-scorers touch.

    Winter Wallace, a USHS prospect who might land in the 5th or 6th round.

    Yegor Sokolov, who is an overager, but is a great goalscorer in the Q and massive. I like him as a 6th rounder, but he could be taken in the 4th round.

    And the massive and unlikely to be Drafted Matthew Rempe, but he could develop into a sneaky good 6’8″ player.

    I am sure the are others, but most of the better-known Power Forward types are around 6’2″ (Jarventie, Colangelo, Cuylle, etc).

  112. JimmyV1965 says:

    jp: I don’t know about the level of fear people have over this stuff. And I don’t know what the provincial or federal government’s have been “peddling”, I live in the US these days.

    The post I replied to was about masks. Fear is an entirely different topic.

    Your hand or a piece of cloth or any damn thing over your mouth will reduce the amount of saliva particles you’ll emanate. Those are the main way coronavirus spreads so anything covering your mouth will reduce the spread of the virus.

    Wearing a surgical mask or a bandana will reduce transmission. Those things also won’t guarantee you’re safe from the virus.

    Your logic appears to be “if it’s not 100% effective, it’s not effective at all”. That’s not how it works.

    Agreed. IMO common sense says masks, while not perfect, can help reduce the spread of the virus; if only because the person wearing the mask is spreading fewer particles.

  113. Ryan says:

    Material Elvis,

    That’s true.

    Rafferty is an unusual position heading into his 25/26 season having only played 57 career AHL and two NHL games.

    I don’t imagine that there are many players at his age with those types of career games played numbers (outside of Euros or guys playing in the KHL) that go on to have NHL careers let alone play top four in the NHL.

    My first thought for a best case scenario for a late-blooming undrafted defenseman would be Giordano.

    Except that Gio was already long in the NHL by then…

    Even a late pick like Matt Roy, who’s two months older than Rafferty has already played in 95 NHL games (over the last two seasons).

    Can anyone think of some other late bloomers?

    Brad Hunt sort of comes to mind a maybe a comp for Rafferty.

  114. €√¥£€^$ says:

    Ryan:
    Material Elvis,

    That’s true.

    Rafferty is an unusual position heading into his 25/26 season having only played 57 career AHL and two NHL games.

    I don’t imagine that there are many players at his age with those types of career games played numbers (outside of Euros or guys playing in the KHL) that go on to have NHL careers let alone play top four in the NHL.

    My first thought for a best case scenario for a late-blooming undrafted defenseman would be Giordano.

    Except that Gio was already long in the NHL by then…

    Even a late pick like Matt Roy, who’s two months older than Rafferty has already played in 95 NHL games (over the last two seasons).

    Can anyone think of some other late bloomers?

    Brad Hunt sort of comes to mind a maybe a comp for Rafferty.

    Rafalski, Oesterle, Fedun? 6th Round Brian Campbell had stunning late success…

  115. Ryan says:

    Lowetide:
    On a rational blog, you know, with people who understood nothing would get accomplished on the internet, someone would write “well when it comes to Rafferty versus Lagesson, the next five years will tell us the whole story.”

    But the fun part is trying to make predictions based upon the available info and going on the record.

    If Rafferty makes the long journey to top four NHL, DSF will have bragging rights for ages.

  116. Material Elvis says:

    Ryan,

    The comparables are slim pickings for players who have taken his path. Even the Euro and Russian post 25 yo success stories are few. Hunt would be an extremely generous comparable for Rafterbeam because Hunt has a bomb and scored a ton of goals. That is not the case with Raptorteeth, who is more of a playmaker. He won’t get PP time over Hughes, Edler, or Myers so how productive will he be?They will have to shelter this guy; I’d say some fans are going to be disappointed.

  117. Ryan says:

    €√¥£€^$: Rafalski, Oesterle, Fedun?6th Round Brian Campbell had stunning late success…

    Rafalski is a good thought. He was from ages ago though and he went to Europe and came back.

    Campbell was a great draft find, but he was in the NHL at 22

    Hah, the Oilers sort of cornered the market with Fedun, Hunt, and Oesterle.

    Oesterle played a full season in the NHL at 25 and had already played in over 150 AHL games by then.

    So we have Rafferty somewhere between Hunt and Fedun with Oesterle as the outer marker.

  118. Side says:

    jp: I don’t know about the level of fear people have over this stuff. And I don’t know what the provincial or federal government’s have been “peddling”, I live in the US these days.

    The post I replied to was about masks. Fear is an entirely different topic.

    Your hand or a piece of cloth or any damn thing over your mouth will reduce the amount of saliva particles you’ll emanate. Those are the main way coronavirus spreads so anything covering your mouth will reduce the spread of the virus.

    Wearing a surgical mask or a bandana will reduce transmission. Those things also won’t guarantee you’re safe from the virus.

    Your logic appears to be “if it’s not 100% effective, it’s not effective at all”. That’s not how it works.

    I feel like everyone needs to watch this

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0Tp0zB904Mc

  119. Side says:

    Scungilli Slushy:
    The only PPE that would be worth wearing is a fit tested, double checked when put on, at least half face, silicone or rubber face piece cartridge style respirators.

    Zero droplet / aerosol transmission, or don’t bother.

    All, we are at the point now where there is multitudes of reading available out there from educated and directly knowledgeable credible people, on Covid 19 and the transmission of respiratory viruses of this strain.

    Covid 19 behaves the same way as the other similar viruses, as was indicated by many people from the very beginning, who were villianized and now have been proven correct (without due apologies and acknowledments).

    What our provincial and federal govt’s are peddling now is ass covering, flip flopping, unscientific nonsense, sadly, yet again.

    Masks other than what I described (or fed air respirators) are only actually helpful for psychological reasons. They cannot stop transmission of this type of virus because of the laws of basic physics, and basic common sense.

    I should have quoted you.

    You need to watch this

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0Tp0zB904Mc

  120. hunter1909 says:

    godot10:

    I’ve been pimping Khiara all last season and it’s even going to be better when he scores anywhere from 5 to 15 goals when the awesome NHL summer playoffs in Edmonton start. Then his value is going to skyrocket. Sign him for a 200k raise per, over 3 seasons now.

    They are going to start, right?

  121. camelwalking says:

    Lowetide:
    On a rational blog, you know, with people who understood nothing would get accomplished on the internet, someone would write “well when it comes to Rafferty versus Lagesson, the next five years will tell us the whole story.”

    A what now?

  122. OriginalPouzar says:

    jp: Agreed the Oilers would be better with Turris next season than Neal. And agreed finding a good 3C replacement isn’t a given, even if the money is there.

    But I still think it’s a good bet that Holland can find something that will help the team more than Neal for Turris. And that also wouldn’t be the worst trade in the last couple of years if it happened.

    Would Russell for Sutter help the team more?

  123. OriginalPouzar says:

    Bouchard 12 in Wheeler’s list of prospects drafted/affiliated with NHL teams.

    No Rafferty but Wheeler cuts it off at 23 years old:

    https://theathletic.com/1880791/2020/07/06/wheeler-the-top-50-drafted-nhl-prospects-ranking-2020-edition/

  124. jp says:

    OriginalPouzar: Would Russell for Sutter help the team more?

    In the short term, potentially. But more likely helpful in the long term (not adding the extra year at $6M).

    If healthy Sutter might be an actually better 3C too, and definitely a better fit for the role (health being the main issue…).

  125. maudite says:

    1 out of 3 ain’t bad?

    N64: Lol. That would only block DSF. Most everyone else never spells Boppin Rapper T anything like that.

  126. Todd Macallan says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    Bouchard 12 in Wheeler’s list of prospects drafted/affiliated with NHL teams.

    No Rafferty but Wheeler cuts it off at 23 years old:

    https://theathletic.com/1880791/2020/07/06/wheeler-the-top-50-drafted-nhl-prospects-ranking-2020-edition/

    Interesting to note he has Bouchard as the 2nd ranked dman on the entire list, behind only Byram.

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