Chantays’ Pipeline

I chuckled yesterday at an online conversation re: Oilers drafting. Idea being the club cannot draft outside the first round. The facts are sadder than that: In the last decade, two of the best picks outside the first round (Tobias Rieder, Erik Gustafsson) didn’t sign with Edmonton and were developed elsewhere. Drafting is important development is key.

However, there are good signs for fans of the Edmonton Oilers. For the first time since the turn of the century, the pipeline appears to be pumping effectively.

THE ATHLETIC!

The Athletic Edmonton features a fabulous cluster of stories (some linked below, some on the site). Great perspective from a ridiculous group of writers and analysts. Proud to be part of the group, here’s an incredible Offer!

  • **New Lowetide: Ken Holland’s measured summer leaves Oilers outside playoffs.
  • New Jonathan Willis: Can Mikko Koskinen be a quality starter for Oilers in 2019-20?
  • New Lowetide: The 2019-20 Oilers and value contracts: A period of transition
  • New Corey Pronman: Oilers No. 9 farm system.
  • New Jonathan Willis: Jesse Puljujarvi signs one-year deal in Finland, dashing hopes he would return to the Oilers
  • Lowetide: Jay Woodcroft joins Claude Julien and Todd Nelson as key coaches in Oilers prospect development
  • Lowetide: Is Riley Sheahan an ideal fit for the Oilers as their No. 3 centre?
  • Lowetide: Oilers coach Dave Tippett might have to take drastic action in order to find a second outscoring line in 2019-20
  • Lowetide: Oilers end summer still shy on first-shot scoring wingers
  • Lowetide: Connor McDavid and optimal line chemistry: The Oilers need to abandon enforcer fixation and add a skill winger
  • Lowetide: Jesse Puljujarvi’s biggest hurdles: Bad timing and the indifference of the Oilers.
  • Lowetide: Projecting the Oilers 2019-20 Opening Night Lineup
  • Daniel Nugent-Bowman: Q&A: Dave Tippett on rounding out his coaching staff, fixing Oilers’ special teams and using Connor McDavid
  • Daniel Nugent-Bowman: What the 2021-22 Oilers might look like after their steady build toward contender status
  • Lowetide: Joel Persson is ideally situated to win an opening night roster spot with the Oilers
  • Jonathan Willis: Projecting the Oilers’ opening night lineup, line combinations and more.
  • Lowetide: Oilers’ acquisition of James Neal could add badly needed scoring to the top two lines.
  • Daniel Nugent-Bowman: Ken Holland puts his stamp on the Oilers with first big move in Lucic-Neal trade
  • Jonathan Willis: Ken Holland ends an ugly situation for the Oilers by trading Milan Lucic for James Neal
  • Lowetide: Oilers top 20 prospects summer 2019.

Signs

There are good signs in drafting and development for the Edmonton Oilers. A small one? Edmonton signed William Lagesson in the spring of 2017. He had been drafted during the time Craig MacTavish was general manager, but by 2017 the team was being run by Peter Chiarelli with Keith Gretzky and Bob Green as lieutenants. MacT passed on signing Gustafsson, who was chosen during the Tambellini era.

Another positive, and we rarely make this distinction (perhaps I should mention it more often) is that the prospects are in all sectors of development—surely a good sign for continued success.

Edmonton has Caleb Jones, William Lagesson, Ethan Bear, Cooper Marody and Tyler Benson pushing up from the AHL. The team also boasts new arrivals to pro Evan Bouchard, Dmitri Samorukov, Kailer Yamamoto, Kirill Maksimov and Ryan McLeod.

At the amateur level, Philip Broberg, Raphael Lavoie, Olivier Rodrigue, Michael Kesselring and Maxim Denezhkin are percolating. The Oilers have stayed the course through the last four drafts. If you add up the totals from the 2016-2019 drafts, the team has chosen 14 players inside the top 100 overall.

The Oilers are drafting, signing and developing (Woodcroft in Bakersfield delivered a stunning set of results in 2018-19) players who are on an NHL trajectory. Ken Holland has the depth to trade a defenseman right now, that’s how much improvement we’ve seen in the back half of this decade.

RECOGNITION

So. It is a fact the Edmonton Oilers haven’t developed players chosen outside the first round. The last five players to be drafted outside the first round, signed, developed in the system, and then found NHL success are Anton Lander, Tyler Pitlick, Martin Marincin, Brandon Davidson and Jujhar Khaira. The last home run? Jeff Petry in 2006.

So. Since 2014, Edmonton has drafted, signed and is developing William Lagesson, Caleb Jones, Ethan Bear, Tyler Benson, Dmitri Samorukov, Kirill Maksimov, Ryan McLeod and Olivier Rodrigue. Never count your chickens, but the team signed Woodcroft and he has some high end talent coming in this fall. Critics can say the Oilers haven’t developed any top flight players outside the first round since 2006, but that statement should be rendered untrue in the days to come.

TYLER WRIGHT

Edmonton has a new director of amateur scouting in Tyler Wright. His resume isn’t fabulous, although drafting Dylan Larkin was a helluva get in 2014. We’ll see how things progress, but my own opinion is that the scouting department was solid under Chiarelli. I hope Wright retains the current scouts and adds an analytics element. I’m not the guy who can do it, but I know someone.

LEON’S COMMENTS

They were fine. He could have said ‘let’s move on’ but in the moment they were fine. Guys, the die is cast. This movie is over, we’re just waiting for the trade.

LOWDOWN WITH LOWETIDE.

At 10 this morning, we have a helluva show for you. TSN1260, at 10:20 Corey Pronman from The Athletic pops in and will answer all of your questions (you can post them in the comments section if you wish). Danny Austin from the Calgary Sun/Herald will help us tee up the Labor Day Classic. 10-1260 text, @Lowetide on twitter. Talk soon!

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203 Responses to "Chantays’ Pipeline"

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  1. LadiesloveSmid says:

    I don’t know that the JP story is over.

    If he develops in a tier-2 league in his 21YO season & EDM holds firm that it’s there or nowhere, he could be poised to breakout in his 22YO season. Have a good season then get dealt when you’re worth more than a pipe dream 3rd liner prospect.

  2. Professor Q says:

    Leon did say “let’s move on”, effectively. More than once. The reporters wouldn’t let him do so, however.

  3. OriginalPouzar says:

    “However, there are good signs for fans of the Edmonton Oilers. For the first time since the turn of the century, the pipeline appears to be pumping effectively.”

    ——————————————————–

    The following are “real prospects” in that will be in the AHL this year that have legit shots at playing in the NHL this year:

    Lagesson
    Jones
    Bear
    Bouchard

    Benson
    Marody
    Yamamoto
    Joe G.

    ————————————————————-

    There are also the following “real prospects” in the AHL this year:

    Samorukov

    Maksimov
    McLeod

    Safin
    ———————————————————

    Not to mention, some real prospects overseas and still in junior:

    Broberg
    Konovalov
    Lavoie
    Rodrigue

    Beglund
    ——————————————————

    Many (most) won’t make it but my goodness that depth of “real prospects” is something this organization has not seen, maybe in their history.

    A bit more patience and riding out the cap hell and things will turn around.

    Value contracts, cap space, assets currency, etc.

  4. OriginalPouzar says:

    I have no idea how anyone could interpret Leon’s comments in a negative way.

  5. LadiesloveSmid says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    I have no idea how anyone could interpret Leon’s comments in a negative way.

    Ya what I basically got was “we’d welcome Jesse with open arms, unfortunately his time here hasn’t panned out & he seems to want to move on”

  6. Decidedly Skeptical Fan says:

    LadiesloveSmid:
    I don’t know that the JP story is over.

    If he develops in a tier-2 league in his 21YO season & EDM holds firm that it’s there or nowhere, he could be poised to breakout in his 22YO season. Have a good season then get dealt when you’re worth more than a pipe dream 3rd liner prospect.

    It’s over.

  7. Decidedly Skeptical Fan says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    I have no idea how anyone could interpret Leon’s comments in a negative way.

    Why does this not surprise me?

  8. v4ance says:

    I liked Leon’s diplomatic comments. He showed disappointment at Jesse’s decision but he left the door open to Jesse’s return to the team. The reporter tried to badger Leon into saying something negative about JP but Leon didn’t take the bait. If there was any fire brewing, Drai did nothing to feed the flames.

    I know this probably isn’t a popular opinion but I don’t think JP was given a fair shake in the top 6. Two factors I don’t think have been seriously taken into account.

    First, JP never had consistent minutes with McDavid for a FULL game. McLellan would spot McDavid with Puli for 3 shifts or so but then blender up the lines. No matter if Jesse was doing well or badly, McLellan couldn’t leave them to develop any chemistry. I bet if ppl looked back at the game sheets, Jesse never got 10 minutes with McDavid but instead had lots of games where he got 4 mins with the captain during on the fly shifts. McLellan was a bit better letting Nuge be Puli’s centre for a full game but that only lasted for about 10 games or so.

    Even when Hitchcock took over and the season was lost, he didn’t give JP consistent time with the top centres but JP’s injury could have played a role in that too.

    Second, even when JP got onto Connor or Ryan’s wing, he usually had Lucic or Caggulia stapled on the other wing for the majority of the time. It would have been nice to have Jesse with two effective players to guide him instead of McD or RNH having to teach JP while also dragging another weaker winger around.

    I place all the blame on the coaches for these missteps.

    It actually reminds me of the movie Moneyball where the GM, Billy Beane, gives the Manager Art Howe flawed players that needed to be utilized in a certain manner and the manager didn’t use them in the right fashion.

    ***
    There’s a quote from a military fiction book that escapes me right now that applied to this situation along the lines of …
    ” they may not have given me the best warriors for this fight so I’ll have to use what I do have with brilliance…”

    Sadly there was no imagination or brilliance shown by the head coach for 3 years.

  9. Bag of Pucks says:

    I thought Leon handled the question fine, and as diplomatically as the media scrum would allow.

    Most team oriented guys are going to look at this the same way. If you’re not wanting to be a part of the solution, then seeya-wouldn’t want to be ya.

    It’s fairly obvious both Leon and Connor loathe press avails. It is a tired dance. The press is probing and the players are ducking and once in a million, they get a non-cliche answer and social media blows up.

    Like Dave Chappelle said in his latest special, this is the worst time to be a celebrity. Not only are you under the microscope, but social justice warriors are constantly poised to pounce.

  10. Material Elvis says:

    v4ance,

    I guess I’ll be the first person to disagree with your assessment. His numbers away from McDavid are not good. If that is the only way that he can make it in the league (McDavid’s winger) then he isn’t good enough. The coach’s job is to win hockey games, not babysit an enigmatic teenager who thinks he is better than he is.

  11. Material Elvis says:

    Bag of Pucks:
    I thought Leon handled the question fine, and as diplomatically as the media scrum would allow.

    Most team oriented guys are going to look at this the same way. If you’re not wanting to be a part of the solution, then seeya-wouldn’t want to be ya.

    It’s fairly obvious both Leon and Connor loathe press avails. It is a tired dance. The press is probing and the players are ducking and once in a million, they get a non-cliche answer and social media blows up.

    Like Dave Chappelle said in his latest special, this is the worst time to be a celebrity. Not only are you under the microscope, but social justice warriors are constantly poised to pounce.

    Can’t wait for the next ‘breaking story’ from Toronto telling us how unhappy Leon looked and how he wants out of Edmonton.

  12. defmn says:

    Material Elvis:
    v4ance,

    I guess I’ll be the first person to disagree with your assessment.His numbers away from McDavid are not good.If that is the only way that he can make it in the league (McDavid’s winger) then he isn’t good enough.The coach’s job is to win hockey games, not babysit an enigmatic teenager who thinks he is better than he is.

    Agreed. Not getting to play with who you want to play with is not a legitimate reason to refuse to play on a team. There may be a legitimate reason why Jesse has taken the stance he has but I have yet to hear it.

  13. Bag of Pucks says:

    v4ance,

    My take is JP didn’t consistently do what the coaches asked him to, and it cost him mins and opps up the depth chart. MacLellan confirmed this was an issue after he was canned.

    Was it the English barrier, player being too stubborn, or is Jesse just a racehorse that spits the bit?

    I don’t know the root cause, but i do know that opportunity is earned not gifted.

  14. powerploy says:

    to me it seemed like Drai body language and his stumbling suggested he was highly uncomfortable with the question. I guess there could be several suggestions as to why.

  15. Side says:

    Professor Q:
    Leon did say “let’s move on”, effectively. More than once. The reporters wouldn’t let him do so, however.

    “Leon, so are you saying you are moving on from Jesse as a teammate?”

  16. v4ance says:

    Training camp is never about “winning a job” for rookies but it does allow the coaches to see who isn’t ready yet. So while you can’t truly win a job, you can definitely lose a spot on the opening roster. It’s not saying that initial phrase is wrong but that it’s the wrong perspective.

    At the start of the season, the old school thinking is that the veterans get first crack at holding down the job. If they show that they can’t compete at the NHL level any more, then, yes, the rookie gets a chance.

    That’s why I believe Russell will be in the top 6 and Benson and Marody will be in the AHL for the first game of the year. By December though, Russell should be the 7th or 8th D and one or both of Marody and Benson will be back on the roster for the rest of the year.

    What the old school mentality gets wrong is that “good enough to still play in the NHL” isn’t the optimal solution because that usually means a “better younger” player has his opportunity delayed until the older player proves he’s definitely over the hill.

  17. godot10 says:

    Pouzar:
    Friedman on NHL Network RE: JP

    “And I think Carolina is willing to give them one of their prospects, maybe a guy like Gauthier, but is not so interested in giving the pick. I think Tampa Bay, they’ve flirted with back and forth, they kinda know which Tampa prospect they might be able to get, but again I think it’s a combination of finding the two things that they want: pick + prospect”

    https://twitter.com/NHLNetwork/status/1166909335097622528

    Did Elliotte Friedman hang out with Joe Thornton and Brett Burns all summer?

    Or was it a disguise to avoid getting the axe?

  18. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Pouzar:
    Friedman on NHL Network RE: JP

    “And I think Carolina is willing to give them one of their prospects, maybe a guy like Gauthier, but is not so interested in giving the pick. I think Tampa Bay, they’ve flirted with back and forth, they kinda know which Tampa prospect they might be able to get, but again I think it’s a combination of finding the two things that they want: pick + prospect”

    https://twitter.com/NHLNetwork/status/1166909335097622528

    Gauthier is a nothing prospect. If they get a dud + a 3rd, just hold on to JP.

  19. texmex says:

    LadiesloveSmid: Gauthier is a nothing prospect. If they get a dud + a 3rd, just hold on to JP.

    That’s likely what Carolina is thinking about JP and why they are hesitant to throw in a 3rd.

  20. GordieHoweHatTrick says:

    My conspiracy theory.
    JP/Agent “force” Chia into “burning off” the 1st year of ELC. Chia obliges because he doesn’t really have a development plan and he is executing his fire sale on wingers (that are easy to find). Very clear evidence of this agreement. JP met the game # requirements and done.
    JP was not given consistent minutes in top 6 and PP in ELC years 2 and 3 because of fear of success and a significant raise that would be required in his second contract, which was really not an option in CAP-Strapped Chia wasteland.

    They rolled the dice.
    They lost.

  21. Munny says:

    LadiesloveSmid: Gauthier is a nothing prospect. If they get a dud + a 3rd, just hold on to JP.

    A bit of hyperbole here, IMO.

  22. Munny says:

    I’m guessing Raddysh is the kid they want off Tampa.

  23. v4ance says:

    When you draft a player in the top 4 of a draft, YES you do gift him the opportunities. Otherwise, you’re wasting the value of your highest assets. It was an organizational failure to provide the language support to JP so he could understand his teammates and coaches so he could do the right things and play the right way.

    Woodguy did a monologue on twitter a few months back comparing Rantanen’s development with Jesse’s. Rantanen was gifted MacKinnon and Landeskog for a full year of losing. Pulijujarvi was never given that length of opportunity. McLellan’s default was to always go back to trying to win the McDavid Drai minutes with a blender everywhere else.

    Other examples? Laine was gifted a top 6 position and #1PP time. JP hasn’t even gotten consistent PP time. Pierre Luc Dubois was inserted into Columbus’ top 6 fairly quickly and fairly consistently..Hall and Ebs got Horcoff then RNH got Hall and Ebs.

    When i think of players who struggled as badly as JP, I think of Olli Jokinen..He wasn’t gifted anything in LA or NYI before he got to the Panthers. He was onto his 3rd team and 6th year until he finally figured things out.

    There’s lots of blame for the coaching staff and management who kept Jesse in the NHL when he really should have been in FInland or in the AHL. But if he was on the NHL roster, he should have been stapled to McDavid or Nuge for longer than 5 games.

  24. Munny says:

    LT said,

    I chuckled yesterday at an online conversation re: Oilers drafting. Idea being the club cannot draft outside the first round. The facts are sadder than that: In the last decade, two of the best picks outside the first round (Tobias Rieder, Erik Gustafsson) didn’t sign with Edmonton and were developed elsewhere. Drafting is important development is key.

    The facts are sadder yet… even a couple of the first rounders have failed to pan out.

  25. blainer says:

    I would do Geekie and Gauthier for JP. Not sure Carolina would though. Geekie is a big Rt shot C who had a great playoff run with the AHL champs.

    JP is a very risky bet IMO just based on the fact he hasn’t put the work in to learn English alone. I bet we would have to add for that deal.

  26. blainer says:

    I do think though that if there is a team that JP can thrive with it’s Carolina. Being reunited with Aho would do him wonders and it would also help him big time with his communication problems.

  27. Jethro Tull says:

    Why do we insist that either a rookie or an under-performing, or both, player be given ‘significant minutes with McDavid’?

    If your development as a player hinges on riding shotgun to the world’s best player, then maybe Jesse was drafted way too high.

    I can see JP rotting where he is. Ken is a dinosaur, and a few here have lauded his alleged ability not to get fleeced in a deal.

    I wonder if Ken would rather take nothing than take 10c on the $.

    The best, most mature, advice for JP would have been to STFU, give new management a chance for one season, work with new management on conflict resolution in the locker room, if indeed that was EVER a problem, and apply himself to all the things that make a successful player in the NHL.

    I’m also wondering if Ken hinted that JP might have been starting the year in the AHL in their hour long chat. Tough to take if you actually believe, contrary to all evidence, you should be top 6, 15mins+ a night playing with the piss-cutters.

  28. Material Elvis says:

    v4ance:
    When you draft a player in the top 4 of a draft, YES you do gift him the opportunities.Otherwise, you’re wasting the value of your highest assets.It was an organizational failure to provide the language support to JP so he could understand his teammates and coaches so he could do the right things and play the right way.

    Woodguy did a monologue on twitter a few months back comparing Rantanen’s development with Jesse’s.Rantanen was gifted MacKinnon and Landeskog for a full year of losing.Pulijujarvi was never given that length of opportunity.McLellan’s default was to always go back to trying to win the McDavid Drai minutes with a blender everywhere else.

    Other examples?Laine was gifted a top 6 position and #1PP time.JP hasn’t even gotten consistent PP time.Pierre Luc Dubois was inserted into Columbus’ top 6 fairly quickly and fairly consistently..Hall and Ebs got Horcoff then RNH got Hall and Ebs.

    When i think of players who struggled as badly as JP, I think of Olli Jokinen..He wasn’t gifted anything in LA or NYI before he got to the Panthers.He was onto his 3rd team and 6th year until he finally figured things out.

    There’s lots of blame for the coaching staff and management who kept Jesse in the NHL when he really should have been in FInland or in the AHL.But if he was on the NHL roster, he should have been stapled to McDavid or Nuge for longer than 5 games.

    Have you seen who his most common line mates were? That narrative does not hold water. As for your comparables, well they really are not comparables except for draft position. All of the guys you mentioned performed commensurately with their draft position and that is why they are successful; not because they were gifted anything. Hall (best player on the team starting year one), Laine (36 goals/64 points in his rookie season; JP has half of that after 3 seasons), Rantanen (20 goals in his rookie season; 84 points in his sophomore season). One of these is not like the other.

  29. Material Elvis says:

    blainer:
    I do think though that if there is a team that JP can thrive with it’s Carolina. Being reunited with Aho would do him wonders and it would also help him big time with his communication problems.

    I don’t know about that last sentence. I think it’s up to him to bridge the communication gap at this point.

  30. texmex says:

    Jethro Tull: I’m also wondering if Ken hinted that JP might have been starting the year in the AHL in their hour long chat.

    Isn’t Jesse Waiver eligible? If he was placed on waivers for the purpose of assignment to Bakersfield, 30 teams would put in a claim.

  31. defmn says:

    Jethro Tull:

    I’m also wondering if Ken hinted that JP might have been starting the year in the AHL in their hour long chat.Tough to take if you actually believe, contrary to all evidence, you should be top 6, 15mins+ a night playing with the piss-cutters.

    Waiving him to the AHL would be equivalent to trading him for nothing since he would be grabbed off the wire.

  32. HT Joe says:

    Lowetide said… “[Leon’s Comments] were fine. He could have said ‘let’s move on’ but in the moment they were fine. Guys, the die is cast. This movie is over, we’re just waiting for the trade.”

    Lowetide… as a light jab to OP, you should still continue to count Jesse towards the 50 man list 🙂

  33. Jethro Tull says:

    texmex,

    defmn,

    Thanks for the correction. Waiving him wouldn’t be optimal. But something stinks here. I know it’s been done to death, but this time I don’t think it’s the Oilers…

  34. OriginalPouzar says:

    Interesting verbal from Friedman last night.

    Re-confirmed that Holland wants a prospect and a pick.

    Says Tampa and Carolina are two of the teams with quite a bit of interest – Tampa is willing to do the prospect, someone like Gautier but the the pick is the hesitation.

  35. GordieHoweHatTrick says:

    Based on pedigree and results, who “deserves” or “had deserved” to play/have time on wing with McDavid?

    YES
    Drai
    Nuge
    Hall
    Eberle
    Others?

    NO
    Luc
    Kass
    Cags
    Chiasson
    etc etc

    SO
    Why was it so intolerable to put JP with McD when he had as good or better numbers with him than the vast majority of other possible wingers????

  36. John Chambers says:

    Evander Kane has been maligned at times during his career, but he makes a noteworthy point about casual racism in hockey culture.

    Especially in Canada where the sport defines the nation so wholly, everyone should feel like the game belongs to them.

    https://www.tsn.ca/sharks-evander-kane-time-to-notice-racism-in-hockey-1.1357435

  37. HT Joe says:

    GordieHoweHatTrick: Based on pedigree and results, who “deserves” or “had deserved” to play/have time on wing with McDavid?

    YES
    Drai
    Nuge
    Hall
    Eberle
    Others?

    Yak deserved to play with McDavid, based on pedigree and results :\

  38. HT Joe says:

    Munny: The facts are sadder than that: In the last decade, two of the best picks outside the first round (Tobias Rieder, Erik Gustafsson) didn’t sign with Edmonton and were developed elsewhere.

    It’s saddest when one considers that Reider played a full season for the Oilers and scored 0 goals… that’s one of the best picks outside the first round. Khaira is my current pick for best drafted outside of the first round in the last decade.

    If we go back just few years earlier than the decade line in the sand, Petry is the best pick outside of the first round that I can think of (2006, 45th overall).

  39. Jethro Tull says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    Interesting verbal from Friedman last night.

    Re-confirmed that Holland wants a prospect and a pick.

    Says Tampa and Carolina are two of the teams with quite a bit of interest – Tampa is willing to do the prospect, someone like Gautier but the the pick is the hesitation.

    I’m going to say that based on the current situation and JP’s body of work, that is an over-ask by Ken.

    Now, is it on purpose?

  40. Munny says:

    It’s funny that on one hand we have people who wish we slow played kids, not placing them in situations where they’re way above their head, and others who wish that teen-agers were facing The Vaunt night in and night out.

    Damned if you do or just… damned.

  41. Jethro Tull says:

    Munny:
    It’s funny that on one hand we have people who wish we slow played kids, not placing them in situations where they’re way above their head, and others who wish that teen-agers were facing The Vaunt night in and night out.

    Damned if you do or just… damned.

    I was just thinking the same thing.

    “Those kids should be slow-played and left to ‘over-perculate’ (I believe the popular term is), but should also all be given 10+mins a night with McDavid (or ‘mentored’ by our best D by playing on a pairing with them).

  42. defmn says:

    Jethro Tull: I’m going to say that based on the current situation and JP’s body of work, that is an over-ask by Ken.

    Now, is it on purpose?

    I hope it is on purpose. There is no real downside for the Oilers to keeping Puljujarvi in Finland this year or even next year if the return is unlikely to develop into an impact NHL player.

    Time heals a lot of problems all on its own so there is upside to waiting him out and no upside to giving him away.

    In that situation you take your 10% chance of things improving by doing nothing over your 0% chance of improving by doing something.

    EDIT: Trading Jesse for peanuts is just confirmation to him that the Oilers never really valued him in the 1st place.

  43. blackadder says:

    By the end of last season, not only had Puljujarvi not gotten better, but you could easily make the case that he had regressed significantly.

    In his last few games with the Oilers he had no confidence with or without the puck, seemed hesitant most of the time leading to mistakes, and stopped shooting.

    Ken Holland has repeatedly spoken about players brought up from the minors too early. They’ll sometimes have short term success but after four or five weeks would see their confidence shot, and the player that was inevitably returned to the minors was a shadow of the player who had left.

    This, to me, is what happened with Puljujarvi. They couldn’t find a spot for him to succeed in the NHL and rather than moving him where he belonged, the AHL, they continued shunting him between lines and among teammates hoping that some sort of magical epiphany would arrive and he’d suddenly turn into the player almost all scouts predicted in 2016.

    You can call Puljujarvi entitled if you want, call him spoiled too. Maybe he could’ve done more.

    But this is, as far as I’m concerned, mostly on the Oilers, management and coaches.

  44. Jethro Tull says:

    defmn: I hope it is on purpose. There is no real downside for the Oilers to keeping Puljujarvi in Finland this year or even next year if the return is unlikely to develop into an impact NHL player.

    Time heals a lot of problems all on its own so there is upside to waiting him out and no upside to giving him away.

    In that situation you take your 10% chance of things improving by doing nothing over your 0% chance of improving by doing something.

    All the rest of the league have to do is wait until Ken’s balls are *this* close to the bandsaw. Then we’ll see if he’s ‘respected’ (what other GM’s say about him just to be nice) or ‘respected’ (other GM’s are willing to deal fairly with him in regards to return for JP.)

  45. Jethro Tull says:

    blackadder: You can call Puljujarvi entitled if you want, call him spoiled too. Maybe he could’ve done more.

    I would agree with that, only it doesn’t match Jesse’s, or his agent’s, verbal. He specified what he believed he is entitled to in the NHL. There are maybe a handful of players that can confidently expect to get whatever they want in the NHL. And he ain’t one of them. So it brings us round to; is he really that naive, or is his agent (who manages quite a few clients with little drama) feeding him to the fishes?

  46. Reja says:

    Munny:
    I’m guessing Raddysh is the kid they want off Tampa.

    How can you turn down a salted radish.

  47. Reja says:

    blainer:
    I do think though that if there is a team that JP can thrive with it’s Carolina. Being reunited with Aho would do him wonders and it would also help him big time with his communication problems.

    I know there will be less pressure on Jesse to turn out in Carolina being what they have to give up to obtain him. Saying that maybe Aho at 22 is quite happy where’s he’s at right now linemate and teammate wise and doesn’t want are need the extra pressure of Jesse turning out or the drama that seems to be following him around. I also think Kosh will be more at ease not being in the middle of this drama just because he’s Finnish

  48. OriginalPouzar says:

    DecidedlySkepticalFan: Why does this not surprise me?

    I assume this mean you have an issue with his comments? Happy to chat about the Oilers related issue if you wish to post more than just a though on me as a person.

  49. LadiesloveSmid says:

    Reja: How can you turn down a salted radish.

    Raddysh is the same age as JP & scores less in the AHL.

    I know we’re at ‘better than nothing’ territory here seemingly, but Raddysh is making no impact this coming season. JP’s not taking 2 years in Finland, missing out on a couple million dollars, because he dislikes the organization so much. No bargaining power. Best case is finds confidence in a developmental league and comes back a refined player. Let him.

  50. blackadder says:

    Jethro Tull: I would agree with that, only it doesn’t match Jesse’s, or his agent’s, verbal.He specified what he believed he is entitled to in the NHL.There are maybe a handful of players that can confidently expect to get whatever they want in the NHL.And he ain’t one of them.So it brings us round to; is he really that naive, or is his agent (who manages quite a few clients with little drama) feeding him to the fishes?

    Who knows what was behind that statement, or what the overall context was. Perhaps, after watching players with much less talent than him like Chiasson, Lucic, and Kassian get extended opportunities with McDavid he wondered why he hadn’t gotten the same (Puljujarvi did, admittedly, get opportunities with McDavid but more often than not he’d be moved away from McDavid mid-game). Perhaps he felt he should have been at that level at this point in his career. Perhaps there’s an issue in the translation from Finnish to English. Perhaps he’s just 21 and immature and will figure it out.

    Neither you nor I nor anyone here is privy to every conversation, every facet of what Puljujarvi experienced as an Oiler. What’s clear is that he believes that he has a better opportunity to play top six minutes elsewhere than he will with the Oilers. Why he thinks that I have no idea.

    The thing is, the Oilers failed the first lesson of player development 101 which is that, except for his rookie season when he played almost 40 games in the minors, they never put him in the best position from which he could succeed. It should have been obvious, especially last year when his play obviously regressed, that he did not belong in the NHL. So then they finally do the right thing, send him to the AHL, only to inexplicably recall him after four games because Hitchcock believed he was the guy to unlock Puljujarivi’s potential.

    But the best guy to do that wasn’t Ken Hitchcock, clearly, it was Jay Woodcroft in Bakersfield.

  51. Professor Q says:

    Material Elvis: Can’t wait for the next ‘breaking story’ from Toronto telling us how unhappy Leon looked and how he wants out of Edmonton.

    You called?

    https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/is-there-any-reason-for-optimism-in-edmonton-this-season

  52. godot10 says:

    blackadder:
    By the end of last season, not only had Puljujarvi not gotten better, but you could easily make the case that he had regressed significantly.

    Duh…He was playing with a serious injury, one that meant he was experiencing pain whenever he engaged physically along the boards. A condition that the Oilers doctors had failed to diagnose in a timely matter.

  53. defmn says:

    Jethro Tull: All the rest of the league have to do is wait until Ken’s balls are *this* close to the bandsaw.Then we’ll see if he’s ‘respected’ (what other GM’s say about him just to be nice) or ‘respected’ (other GM’s are willing to deal fairly with him in regards to return for JP.)

    I don’t see Holland’s balls ever being close to the bandsaw, though. He is on his retirement contract with 5 years of $5 mil per year guaranteed. I don’t see him feeling any pressure other than the pressure he puts on himself to do the best job he can.

    If Jesse is still in Finland next season there is no downside for the Oilers imo but there is a slight chance of an upside so that is how I would approach this. Let Jesse think about his options for a year. See where he’s at next summer.

  54. Bag of Pucks says:

    Hard to believe people are still arguing to gift raw prospects Top 6 minutes after what we’ve witnessed for the last 13 years.

    Sink or swim is not a plan.

    JP belonged in the A, not stapled to McDavid.

  55. ArmchairGM says:

    https://theathletic.com/1166232/2019/08/29/luszczyszyn-2019-20-nhl-season-previews/

    Another 1-per-day release, just like Pronman’s prospect list. I have a hunch we won’t have to wait long this time…

  56. Yeti says:

    Jethro Tull: I would agree with that, only it doesn’t match Jesse’s, or his agent’s, verbal.He specified what he believed he is entitled to in the NHL.There are maybe a handful of players that can confidently expect to get whatever they want in the NHL.And he ain’t one of them.So it brings us round to; is he really that naive, or is his agent (who manages quite a few clients with little drama) feeding him to the fishes?

    That’s not true, though. The comments attributed to him were – according to Finnish speakers – not a good translation of what he actually said. He certainly did not say he was entitled to top-6 minutes in the NHL.

  57. Material Elvis says:

    godot10: Duh…He was playing with a serious injury, one that meant he was experiencing pain whenever he engaged physically along the boards.A condition that the Oilers doctors had failed to diagnose in a timely matter.

    What are you basing this accusation on? They use the best medical professionals in the business. In fact, they were the ones who told JP that he needed surgery and he didn’t believe them.

  58. Material Elvis says:

    Professor Q: You called?

    https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/is-there-any-reason-for-optimism-in-edmonton-this-season

    Just like clockwork. These guys are predictable, if anything.

  59. GordieHoweHatTrick says:

    Bag of Pucks:
    Hard to believe people are still arguing to gift raw prospects Top 6 minutes after what we’ve witnessed for the last 13 years.

    Sink or swim is not a plan.

    JP belonged in the A, not stapled to McDavid.

    Yup, but since he wasn’t in the A, should he have been played like he was?

  60. ArmchairGM says:

    Professor Q: You called?

    https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/is-there-any-reason-for-optimism-in-edmonton-this-season

    “Leon Draisaitl couldn’t fake enthusiasm about the Oilers’ chances in 2019-20.”

    Do these guys even watch hockey? This guy doesn’t even smile when he scores.

  61. Andy Dufresne says:

    Stauffer quoting Playfair that they intend to give the Nurse Larsson pairing a good look as a shut down top pairing.

    Might be old news? but its interesting.

    Its time for Klefbom to step up and mentor a younger guy (Benning, Persson, Jones, Bouchard) on the 2nd pair.

  62. Jethro Tull says:

    defmn: I don’t see Holland’s balls ever being close to the bandsaw, though. He is on his retirement contract with 5 years of $5 mil per year guaranteed. I don’t see him feeling any pressure other than the pressure he puts on himself to do the best job he can.

    If Jesse is still in Finland next season there is no downside for the Oilers imo but there is a slight chance of an upside so that is how I would approach this. Let Jesse think about his options for a year. See where he’s at next summer.

    So Ken is just doing this for schitzengiggles? I’ve been a detractor of Holland’s, but one thing I’ll give him is I believe him to be sincere in his efforts to make a winning team. I disagree with the initial philosophy of the hire and most of what he’s done, but I don’t get a “fuck it, I’m outta here soon anyways” attitude from him.

    So to the other point, in which I believe you’re mistaken: If Ken is waiting for the right price, he’s waiting in vain. It is incumbent on Ken to claw back at least a little value from a former 4OV. One thing he was brought in for was to stop the bleeding of talent in shitty trades. It’s the rest of the league that has no pressure. They can just wait to see if Ken is willing to let JP languish in Europe (which I’m not convinced Jesse would see as a bad thing) or ken’ll crack and cut bait and we’ll get a 3rd rounder from Buffalo. Unless we’re compelting GM’s a Weber for the rights to JP trade.

    I’m unsure of the rules of how long a team can hang on to a player’s NHL rights who refuses to report. Am I correct that JP hasn’t been qualified? I assume there will be some sort of deadline beyond which we’ll lose him for nothing, then whatever lesson you’re trying to teach him is moot. He’ll have won and set precedent.

    Sure, Ken has time now, he’s brought until December. After that?

    Remember, Ken was part of the group of GM’s that wanted to heavily cap players’ salary’s as they believed certain players were being paid too much, then took us to a lock-out where they were each other’s BFF’s, then as soon as they went back to their teams, started throwing stupid money and back AND forward loaded contracts they had no intention honoring at players again, just to get one over on the other.

    They remind my of the witches in Terry Pratchett books: Will warily ally to fight a greater enemy, but would happily claw each other’s eyes out to get the last puck-moving D man that just went UFA.

  63. Andy Dufresne says:

    Here’s hoping JP has 40pts in Finland by Christmas time.

    Let the bidding begin!!

  64. Jethro Tull says:

    Andy Dufresne:
    Stauffer quoting Playfair that they intend to give the Nurse Larsson pairing a good look as a shut down top pairing.

    Might be old news? but its interesting.

    Its time for Klefbom to step up and mentor a younger guy (Benning, Persson, Jones, Bouchard) on the 2nd pair.

    Sure would be nice to have a legit 2nd pairing guy, like, i dunno, a Sekera and have the mentoring done by an old-balls on the 3rd line like…..i dunno…..other teams do it.

  65. ArmchairGM says:

    Andy Dufresne: Stauffer quoting Playfair that they intend to give the Nurse Larsson pairing a good look as a shut down top pairing.

    My question is: who’s going to move the puck up to the forwards? They are out 2 best blueliners defensively, but having them together for every D-zone faceoff (for instance) presupposes that we lose that faceoff, because neither guy is great at moving the puck to the forwards.

  66. ArmchairGM says:

    Jethro Tull: Am I correct that JP hasn’t been qualified?

    Of course he’s been qualified. If not, he would have become a UFA on July 1st.

  67. ArmchairGM says:

    Andy Dufresne:
    Here’s hoping JP has 40pts in Finland by Christmas time.

    Let the bidding begin!!

    Nobody is going to trade for him at Christmas. If he doesn’t sign a contract by December 1st he has to sit out the entire year.

  68. jp says:

    ArmchairGM: “Leon Draisaitl couldn’t fake enthusiasm about the Oilers’ chances in 2019-20.”

    Do these guys even watch hockey? This guy doesn’t even smile when he scores.

    Was thinking the same about both him and McDavid.

  69. v4ance says:

    Bag of Pucks:
    Hard to believe people are still arguing to gift raw prospects Top 6 minutes after what we’ve witnessed for the last 13 years.

    Sink or swim is not a plan.

    JP belonged in the A, not stapled to McDavid.

    This is the distinction that you and others aren’t getting.

    ***

    It was the coaches and management’s failure to diagnose that Jesse wasn’t ready… or raw as you put it.

    Therefore it was incumbent on the coaches and management to put him in a situation were he could learn. Which we all agree was in the AHL or Finland for his first year.

    BUT, if the coaches and management agree he is ready, YES, he should be gifted Top 6 time and PP minutes to learn and thrive with the best at the NHL level.

    This was the same mistake they made with Yak, with JP and with Yamamoto for 9 games each season.

    For players like Hall and RNH, the NHL straight out of the box into the top 6 worked because they WERE ready. Ebs took a few extra years in the WHL with some AHL cups of coffee before he proved he was ready and jumped straight into the Top 6. They did it right with Klefbom and Nurse and even Petry before they sewered that relationship.

    But as many have pointed out, Pulijujarvi and Lehto need to own some of the blame as well. It appears that there was pressure to get JP into the NHL as fast as possible to get him to UFA sooner and a bigger payday.

    Greed won out over proper development both from the player side and management.

  70. defmn says:

    Jethro Tull: So Ken is just doing this for schitzengiggles? I’ve been a detractor of Holland’s, but one thing I’ll give him is I believe him to be sincere in his efforts to make a winning team. I disagree with the initial philosophy of the hire and most of what he’s done, but I don’t get a “fuck it, I’m outta here soon anyways” attitude from him.

    So to the other point, in which I believe you’re mistaken: If Ken is waiting for the right price, he’s waiting in vain.It is incumbent on Ken to claw back at least a little value from a former 4OV. One thing he was brought in for was to stop the bleeding of talent in shitty trades.It’s the rest of the league that has no pressure. They can just wait to see if Ken is willing to let JP languish in Europe (which I’m not convinced Jesse would see as a bad thing) or ken’ll crack and cut bait and we’ll get a 3rd rounder from Buffalo.Unless we’re compelting GM’s a Weber for the rights to JP trade.

    I’m unsure of the rules of how long a team can hang on to a player’s NHL rights who refuses to report.Am I correct that JP hasn’t been qualified?I assume there will be some sort of deadline beyond which we’ll lose him for nothing, then whatever lesson you’re trying to teach him is moot.He’ll have won and set precedent.

    Sure, Ken has time now, he’s brought until December.After that?

    Remember, Ken was part of the group of GM’s that wanted to heavily cap players’ salary’s as they believed certain players were being paid too much, then took us to a lock-out where they were each other’s BFF’s, then as soon as they went back to their teams, started throwing stupid money and back AND forward loaded contracts they had no intention honoring at players again, just to get one over on the other.

    They remind my of the witches in Terry Pratchett books:Will warily ally to fight a greater enemy, but would happily claw each other’s eyes out to get the last puck-moving D man that just went UFA.

    I have no idea how you got this out of anything I wrote since it is pretty much the opposite of what I said.

    And, yes, Jesse was qualified. The deadline to do so was about a month ago.

    But to try and be clearer. I think Holland is pretty much the epitome of the old time manager who sees his loyalty to the team as the most important part of his job. He will do what he thinks is best for the team. He cannot be forced to do anything else because his career is taken care of. He won’t bow to pressure because he has nothing to prove and no next job to worry about.

    Does that make it clearer? Getting a 10 cent on the dollar return is not going to move the dial for the team. Patience might. Therefore I go with patience and I think Holland has as well. He has set a price which values Jesse above current market value thereby telling Jesse that he is valued while ensuring that offers either improve or no trade happens.

  71. John Chambers says:

    Andy Dufresne:
    Stauffer quoting Playfair that they intend to give the Nurse Larsson pairing a good look as a shut down top pairing.

    Might be old news? but its interesting.

    Its time for Klefbom to step up and mentor a younger guy (Benning, Persson, Jones, Bouchard) on the 2nd pair.

    My ideal D lineup for the Oilers is:
    Klefbom – Nurse
    Jones – Larsson
    Russell – Benning

    I’ve lost faith in Lars’ ability to play top-pair, but think he can thrive in a 3-4 role with a good skater / passer. Jones may not be idea for 3-4, but I’d be willing to give him a look because the other options have been tried and have failed.

  72. Decidedly Skeptical Fan says:

    Andy Dufresne:
    Here’s hoping JP has 40pts in Finland by Christmas time.

    Let the bidding begin!!

    I bid 1 Quatloo.

  73. rickithebear says:

    V4Ance:
    Bang on
    I have been pointing that out all along.
    Plus Holland prefers 23 yr debuts.
    Preferred Veteran chance cause of proven even play, & hopefully Special teams

    Top 5 evg total & rate roster players July 1
    Draisaitl W 31 evg; #6 fwd 16 ppg
    Mcdavid #2C 31 evg, #32 fwd 9 ppg
    RNH #32C 19 evg with 47.78 off ZS; #42 fwd 8 ppg
    Kassian #37 RW 14 evg, former top 40 pk fwd
    Gagner #33 RW .95 evg/60 with 38.39% off ZS,

    Holland acquired:
    Trade Neal (5.75 + .75) LW #15 38 evg 16-17 & 17-18
    UFA Chaisson (2.15M) #43 RW 13 evg; #42 fwd 8 ppg
    UFA Archibald (1M) #51 RW 12 evg; achieve that with 45.98% off zone start
    UFA Granlund (1.3M) #60 LW 10 evg 2 ppg; 16-17 #24 LW 16 evg 3 ppg
    UFA jurco (.75M) 17-18 #20 LW 1.02 evg/60

    Euroleague veterans
    Nygard (.925M) #2 goal scorer; 22G 37P NHLE; elite skater.
    Haas (.925M) DZ, zone entry driver, potential 3C min.

    Brodziak (1.15M) DZ draws, 31.75% off ZS
    Khaira (1.2M) #50 LW 14 eva, DZ 46.22% off ZS, potential 3C min; 17-18 #59 LW 10 evg
    Cave (.675M) 41.18% ZS, Top 50 pk rate in Boston.

    That is 15 fwd for 14 spots.

    Before we even talk about AHL prospects.

    Makes sense 23 yr debut,
    Then lock them up to cheap 3 yr bridge if they show.
    26 yr Old RFA

  74. godot10 says:

    Material Elvis: What are you basing this accusation on?They use the best medical professionals in the business. In fact, they were the ones who told JP that he needed surgery and he didn’t believe them.

    The nature of the injury. And the discussion about it at the time. This was not an injury that just appeared one day. He was being bothered by it for awhile and it was not diagnosed promptly.

  75. godot10 says:

    ArmchairGM: My question is: who’s going to move the puck up to the forwards? They are out 2 best blueliners defensively, but having them together for every D-zone faceoff (for instance) presupposes that we lose that faceoff, because neither guy is great at moving the puck to the forwards.

    Larsson can pass the puck. One of the problems with the Klefbom Larsson pairing is that Larsson would defer to Klefbom, and move it to him to move it up the ice.

    Remember, McLellan and Hitchcock opposed passing the puck up the middle. So Larsson options were up the boards into a crowd of traffic (because everyone knew the Oilers didn’t break out throught the middle) or pass it to Klefbom. McLellan and HItchcock are old style play slow coaches.

    Nurse will also transport by lugging it up the ice.

  76. rickithebear says:

    Chambers:
    Median for evga/60 was 2.64 last season.
    Playing with 3-1-1-1 rover
    Klefbom 1025 ev min 2.48 evga/60 +.16
    Nurse 283 ev min 4.24 evga/60 -1.60
    So he could not carry 3-1-1-1 structure like he had in the past.

    A lot of video with Klefbom, Nurse not in HD area.
    Video does not lie!

  77. Side says:

    godot10: The nature of the injury.And the discussion about it at the time.This was not an injury that just appeared one day.He was being bothered by it for awhile and it was not diagnosed promptly.

    Your version doesn’t seem to line up with the events. The Oilers described it as a long term injury and Jesse and his agent sought a second opinion, obviously because they did not trust the Oilers doctors, otherwise they would not have sought a second opinion.

    This has been brought up to you before, why do you ignore it and pretend like your version of events is reality?

    Do you have any evidence to support what you are suggesting..?

  78. blainer says:

    Reja: I know there will be less pressure on Jesse to turn out in Carolina being what they have to give up to obtain him. Saying that maybe Aho at 22 is quite happy where’s he’s at right now linemate and teammate wise and doesn’t want are need the extra pressure of Jesse turning out or the drama that seems to be following him around. I also think Kosh will be more at ease not being in the middle of this drama just because he’s Finnish

    From my understanding JP was training with Aho over the summer so there must be a good connection there. They also played quite a bit Nationally as well so IMO I would think the opposite of you and wouldn’t be surprised if Aho is actually lobbying management to trade for Jesse.

    I also believe that Aho’s father owns the team Jesse is now playing for in Finland. I could be wrong on that but I seem to remember reading that somewhere. I am fairly confident Aho will not see Jesse as a distraction or add more pressure for him. Quite the opposite actually as he will have one of his good buddies to hang with in Carolina as well.

  79. godot10 says:

    Side: Your version doesn’t seem to line up with the events.The Oilers described it as a long term injury and Jesse and his agent sought a second opinion, obviously because they did not trust the Oilers doctors, otherwise they would not have sought a second opinion.

    This has been brought up to you before, why do you ignore it and pretend like your version of events is reality?

    Do you have any evidence to support what you are suggesting..?

    A long term injury which they did not diagnose promptly. Or else Jesse and his agent would not have been shocked at getting a recommendation for surgery basically out of the blue.

  80. Jethro Tull says:

    defmn: I have no idea how you got this out of anything I wrote since it is pretty much the opposite of what I said.

    And, yes, Jesse was qualified. The deadline to do so was about a month ago.

    But to try and be clearer. I think Holland is pretty much the epitome of the old time manager who sees his loyalty to the team as the most important part of his job. He will do what he thinks is best for the team. He cannot be forced to do anything else because his career is taken care of. He won’t bow to pressure because he has nothing to prove and no next job to worry about.

    Does that make it clearer? Getting a 10 cent on the dollar return is not going to move the dial for the team. Patience might. Therefore I go with patience and I think Holland has as well. He has set a price which values Jesse above current market value thereby telling Jesse that he is valued while ensuring that offers either improve or no trade happens.

    We see this very differently. You brought up how Ken doesn’t feel pressure as he has hit pay dirt in money and term., Therefore, he has no obligation to do the best thing for the team because he fears no reprisal. No firing. I have him pegged as a person of integrity.

    I can see merit in Jesse playing hockey until a resolution is in place. I see value in the “out clause” up until December. I do NOT see value in him playing in Finland after his troubles with a) NA language b) NA culture c) Ice surface size d) bonding with team mates. e) keeping his mouth shut.

    Honest answer: If you, as a GM, looking at taking a flyer on Jesse, give up a good prospect and a high pick on him between now and December when you know all you have to do is wait? Because let’s call Jesse what he is: A reclamation project. Who’s fault it is is now immaterial. He’d be a player that would be nice to have as depth, not a must have.

  81. Side says:

    godot10: A long term injury which they did not diagnose promptly.Or else Jesse and his agent would not have been shocked at getting a recommendation for surgery basically out of the blue.

    Why are you saying they are shocked by it and it wasn’t diagnosed already? It could very well have been diagnosed earlier but it could have been something Jesse wanted to play through.

    Jesse said it was bothering him for awhile, Oilers doctor’s confirmed he would need surgery, Jesse and his agent apparently did not believe or trust them, so went for a second opinion.

    Them being “shocked” and this not being diagnosed sooner is speculation on your part.

    If it was a shock to them, I’m pretty sure we would have heard about it as part of the reason why they don’t want to play for the Oilers. Negligence would be a pretty big issue for them if they were “shocked” by it, would you agree?

  82. Jethro Tull says:

    The problem I see with the last regimes is that they’ve either made the right decisions at the wrong time or vice versa. It’s left us gun shy.

    Cutting bait on a player that has publicly stated he doesn’t want or intend to play for you ever again is a get out of jail free card for a GM. It sewers any value in the player, but also absolve the GM for the shitty return.

    Cutting bait on players because they made a mistake in a play-off game, were incorrectly categorized as ‘soft’, perceived as a ‘cancer in the room’, forced to play above their ability in the line-up, or just had huge sideburns that a Victorian rector would be proud of is what got us here.

    We’ve been conditioned by shitty decision after shitty decision to think that because that decision was wrong in that circumstance, it must be wrong in all circumstances. Not so.

    Let me go on record: We aren’t getting that price for JP (watch him get traded tomorrow to some other idiot GM!). Getting what we can for him and letting him and us move on with some vestige of dignity is the play.

  83. Side says:

    Jethro Tull:
    The problem I see with the last regimes is that they’ve either made the right decisions at the wrong time or vice versa.It’s left us gun shy.

    Cutting bait on a player that has publicly stated he doesn’t want or intend to play for you ever again is a get out of jail free card for a GM.It sewers any value in the player, but also absolve the GM for the shitty return.

    Cutting bait on players because they made a mistake in a play-off game, were incorrectly categorized as ‘soft’, perceived as a ‘cancer in the room’, forced to play above their ability in the line-up, or just had huge sideburns that a Victorian rector would be proud of is what got us here.

    We’ve been conditioned by shitty decision after shitty decision to think that because that decision was wrong in that circumstance, it must be wrong in all circumstances.Not so.

    Let me go on record: We aren’t getting that price for JP (watch him get traded tomorrow to some other idiot GM!).Getting what we can for him and letting him and us move on with some vestige of dignity is the play.

    But then the question is, when is the best time to “get what you can” for him. What if Jesse goes into Liiga and starts tearing it up. Obviously, his value will be higher at that point then it is now.

    Either way, if you are the Oilers you probably aren’t going to get something now, or before December, that will be in immediate difference maker so may as well wait to see if your asset’s value will increase.

    I don’t see how the Oilers will or have lost any dignity at this point.

  84. meanashell11 says:

    Jethro Tull:
    Why do we insist that either a rookie or an under-performing, or both, player be given ‘significant minutes with McDavid’?

    If your development as a player hinges on riding shotgun to the world’s best player, then maybe Jesse was drafted way too high.

    I can see JP rotting where he is.Ken is a dinosaur, and a few here have lauded his alleged ability not to get fleeced in a deal.

    I wonder if Ken would rather take nothing than take 10c on the $.

    The best, most mature, advice for JP would have been to STFU, give new management a chance for one season, work with new management on conflict resolution in the locker room, if indeed that was EVER a problem, and apply himself to all the things that make a successful player in the NHL.

    I’m also wondering if Ken hinted that JP might have been starting the year in the AHL in their hour long chat.Tough to take if you actually believe, contrary to all evidence, you should be top 6, 15mins+ a night playing with the piss-cutters.

    Can’t start in AHL as he is waiver eligible. So that’s that. JP screwed himself.

  85. OriginalPouzar says:

    vance:
    Training camp is never about “winning a job” for rookies but it does allow the coaches to see who isn’t ready yet.So while you can’t truly win a job, you can definitely lose a spot on the opening roster.It’s not saying that initial phrase is wrong but that it’s the wrong perspective.

    At the start of the season, the old school thinking is that the veterans get first crack at holding down the job.If they show that they can’t compete at the NHL level any more, then, yes, the rookie gets a chance.

    That’s why I believe Russell will be in the top 6 and Benson and Marody will be in the AHL for the first game of the year.By December though, Russell should be the 7th or 8th D and one or both of Marody and Benson will be back on the roster for the rest of the year.

    What the old school mentality gets wrong is that “good enough to still play in the NHL” isn’t the optimal solution because that usually means a “better younger” player has his opportunity delayed until the older player proves he’s definitely over the hill.

    I would alter the first paragrpah a bit. I do agree that a youngster can “lose a job” in camp but will say that, while they can’t prove to be NHL ready in camp, they can win/earn themselves a chance to prove so in the regular season.

    You could be right that Benson starts in the AHL, however, if he shows continued progression at camp and puts up 6 points in 5 exhibition games, he may earn himself a roster spot on October 2 and an actual opportunity to prove to be NHL ready.

    I agree that we’ll almost assuredly see Kris Russell in the lineup October 2 (subject to injury) – I hope he is indeed surpassed shortly in the season by Lagesson and Persson and Jones, on merit, just like you. We’ll have to see how it plays out.

    My only hesitation is that its imperative that the Oilers get a clean disposition of Russell before July 2020 – we need that $4M and, if the player is in and out of the lineup, he isn’t going to be tradeable without retention.

    Of course, Tippett can’t worry about that – he needs to ice the roster that he believes gives the team the best chance to win, every night – unless instructed differently by his boss.

  86. jp says:

    ArmchairGM: My question is: who’s going to move the puck up to the forwards? They are out 2 best blueliners defensively, but having them together for every D-zone faceoff (for instance) presupposes that we lose that faceoff, because neither guy is great at moving the puck to the forwards.

    They made it work 2 years ago didn’t they? They did smashingly in a large, heavy minutes sample pretty much any way you want to assess it. If they can win those types of minutes again maybe this team has a chance.

  87. OriginalPouzar says:

    texmex: That’s likely what Carolina is thinking about JP and why they are hesitant to throw in a 3rd.

    Strong down arrows for Jesse right now but he accomplished much more in the AHL at 18 than Guathier has at 21, Jesse is a full year younger and higher pedigree.

    0.5 PPG in the AHL in the 21 year old season is middling.

  88. OriginalPouzar says:

    GordieHoweHatTrick:
    My conspiracy theory.
    JP/Agent “force” Chia into “burning off” the 1st year of ELC. Chia obliges because he doesn’t really have a development plan and he is executing his fire sale on wingers (that are easy to find). Very clear evidence of this agreement. JP met the game # requirements and done.
    JP was not given consistent minutes in top 6 and PP in ELC years 2 and 3 because of fear of success and a significant raise that would be required in his second contract, which was really not an option in CAP-Strapped Chia wasteland.

    They rolled the dice.
    They lost.

    I now have no doubt that there was indeed an informal agreement between the Puljujarvi camp and Oiler management as you state – not sure if it was to sign the contract or to sign the contract and come to North America.

    Either way, the agreement was more than just burning the year of that ELC, that happened after he played 10 games. The agreement was clearly 40 games on the roster which vests a year towards UFA status. He was sent down right after that 40th game (opposite of Drai who was sent to junior a few games prior to 40.

    Also, playing 10 games as an 18 year, not only burned a year of his ELC, but it also took the waiver exempt threshold down from 5 years to 3 years.

    That should not be under-stated. His trade value would be higher if the acquiring team could assign him to the AHL without waivers. I’m sure many teams are confident they can “rehabilitate” a 4th overall high talent 6’3 kid who was 20 when last season ended.

  89. jp says:

    John Chambers:

    I’ve lost faith in Lars’ ability to play top-pair,

    Why? He had a bad year. He at least sawed off first pair competition in each of the previous 4 years (not less than 33% TOI vs elites). He’s 26. Why?

  90. OriginalPouzar says:

    JethroTull:

    I can see JP rotting where he is.Ken is a dinosaur, and a few here have lauded his alleged ability not to get fleeced in a deal.

    With respect, which part of the Lucic deal scream “dinosaur”?

    – Trading to a rival?
    – Trading away one of the toughest players in the league?
    – The very innovative and clearly highly negotiated condition on the trade?

  91. OriginalPouzar says:

    HTJoe:
    Lowetide said… “[Leon’s Comments] were fine. He could have said ‘let’s move on’ but in the moment they were fine. Guys, the die is cast. This movie is over, we’re just waiting for the trade.”

    Lowetide… as a light jab to OP, you should still continue to count Jesse towards the 50 man list

    He’s got to be on the list until December 1…..

  92. pts2pndr says:

    John Chambers: My ideal D lineup for the Oilers is:
    Klefbom – Nurse
    Jones – Larsson
    Russell – Benning

    I’ve lost faith in Lars’ ability to play top-pair, but think he can thrive in a 3-4 role with a good skater / passer. Jones may not be idea for 3-4, but I’d be willing to give him a look because the other options have been tried and have failed.

    It is now accepted that there are advantages to players playing on their correct and or strong side. It would seem counter productive to have your top two pairings play their weak side with the second pairing having a rookie. I personally think the only way one could get worse would be to put the names in a hat and do a random draw.

  93. OriginalPouzar says:

    blackadder:
    By the end of last season, not only had Puljujarvi not gotten better, but you could easily make the case that he had regressed significantly.

    In his last few games with the Oilers he had no confidence with or without the puck, seemed hesitant most of the time leading to mistakes, and stopped shooting.

    Really tough to argue with this but I will provide the possible mitigating factor of the hip issue.

  94. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Jethro Tull: I’m going to say that based on the current situation and JP’s body of work, that is an over-ask by Ken.

    Now, is it on purpose?

    Holland doesn’t need to do anything now.

    He can give him away next year for nothing, but maybe Jesse tears the cover off and he gets something good.

    I wouldn’t trade him for nothing now either, particularly since he’s been given every opportunity for a clean start in Edmonton.

    If he came back and cooperated the players wouldn’t welcome him, he’s a nice kid, I feel they like him. But trying to fit in and doing what is asked, which all players have to except the only one who has true torque on the team, is up to him and he doesn’t want that.

  95. Reja says:

    OriginalPouzar: I now have no doubt that there was indeed an informal agreement between the Puljujarvi camp and Oiler management as you state – not sure if it was to sign the contract or to sign the contract and come to North America.

    Either way, the agreement was more than just burning the year of that ELC, that happened after he played 10 games.The agreement was clearly 40 games on the roster which vests a year towards UFA status.He was sent down right after that 40th game (opposite of Drai who was sent to junior a few games prior to 40.

    Also, playing 10 games as an 18 year, not only burned a year of his ELC, but it also took the waiver exempt threshold down from 5 years to 3 years.

    That should not be under-stated.His trade value would be higher if the acquiring team could assign him to the AHL without waivers. I’m sure many teams are confident they can “rehabilitate” a 4th overall high talent 6’3 kid who was 20 when last season ended.

    The difference between waiver exempt and by the sounds of it demanding top 6 and PP time is huge.

  96. Scungilli Slushy says:

    blackadder:
    By the end of last season, not only had Puljujarvi not gotten better, but you could easily make the case that he had regressed significantly.

    In his last few games with the Oilers he had no confidence with or without the puck, seemed hesitant most of the time leading to mistakes, and stopped shooting.

    Ken Holland has repeatedly spoken about players brought up from the minors too early.They’ll sometimes have short term success but after four or five weeks would see their confidence shot, and the player that was inevitably returned to the minors was a shadow of the player who had left.

    This, to me, is what happened with Puljujarvi.They couldn’t find a spot for him to succeed in the NHL and rather than moving him where he belonged, the AHL, they continued shunting him between lines and among teammates hoping that some sort of magical epiphany would arrive and he’d suddenly turn into the player almost all scouts predicted in 2016.

    You can call Puljujarvi entitled if you want, call him spoiled too.Maybe he could’ve done more.

    But this is, as far as I’m concerned, mostly on the Oilers, management and coaches.

    I believe the last two years there was a lot of back pressure on coaches and management to win now.

    Yes Rantenen was allowed a year to figure it out, but that means Salic, and more importantly ownership were on board.

    The dagger was the pre-Holland pettiness the team showed to prospects and others. Petry wouldn’t crush people so show me, Hall (the team’s best player) has an opinion and has a ‘problem ‘ or whatever so get out, Yak won’t listen, Jesse won’t listen, fire them all into the sun.

    Maturity on the org’s part would have gone a long way in guiding these young men. Though Jeff didn’t need it, he needed to be appreciated for what he was and the quality he brought.

  97. OriginalPouzar says:

    JethroTull: So Ken is just doing this for schitzengiggles? I’ve been a detractor of Holland’s, but one thing I’ll give him is I believe him to be sincere in his efforts to make a winning team. I disagree with the initial philosophy of the hire and most of what he’s done, but I don’t get a “fuck it, I’m outta here soon anyways” attitude from him.

    So to the other point, in which I believe you’re mistaken: If Ken is waiting for the right price, he’s waiting in vain.It is incumbent on Ken to claw back at least a little value from a former 4OV. One thing he was brought in for was to stop the bleeding of talent in shitty trades.It’s the rest of the league that has no pressure. They can just wait to see if Ken is willing to let JP languish in Europe (which I’m not convinced Jesse would see as a bad thing) or ken’ll crack and cut bait and we’ll get a 3rd rounder from Buffalo.Unless we’re compelting GM’s a Weber for the rights to JP trade.

    I’m unsure of the rules of how long a team can hang on to a player’s NHL rights who refuses to report.Am I correct that JP hasn’t been qualified?I assume there will be some sort of deadline beyond which we’ll lose him for nothing, then whatever lesson you’re trying to teach him is moot.He’ll have won and set precedent.

    Sure, Ken has time now, he’s brought until December.After that?

    Remember, Ken was part of the group of GM’s that wanted to heavily cap players’ salary’s as they believed certain players were being paid too much, then took us to a lock-out where they were each other’s BFF’s, then as soon as they went back to their teams, started throwing stupid money and back AND forward loaded contracts they had no intention honoring at players again, just to get one over on the other.

    They remind my of the witches in Terry Pratchett books:Will warily ally to fight a greater enemy, but would happily claw each other’s eyes out to get the last puck-moving D man that just went UFA.

    Yup, he needs to get back some value but that value isn’t available now and the player needs to play hockey in order to increase the value that can be received.

    They can hold on to him for 4 more years before he become a UFA.

    Of course he was qualified – if not, he would have been a UFA on July 1,

    Slepyshev was qualified as well

  98. OriginalPouzar says:

    Andy: witch

    Reasonable projections, 19.

  99. OriginalPouzar says:

    ArmchairGM: Nobody is going to trade for him at Christmas. If he doesn’t sign a contract by December 1st he has to sit out the entire year.

    While more unlikely, a trade could still be realistically worked out with both teams having a view to the future – picks and non-roster players. Maybe a team was to shed a contract on the 50 for another move but still get a solid asset?

  100. Reja says:

    blainer: From my understanding JP was training with Aho over the summer so there must be a good connection there. They also played quite a bit Nationally as well so IMO I would think the opposite of you and wouldn’t be surprised if Aho is actually lobbying management to trade for Jesse.

    I also believe that Aho’s father owns the team Jesse is now playing for in Finland. I could be wrong on that but I seem to remember reading that somewhere. I am fairly confident Aho will not see Jesse as a distraction or add more pressure for him. Quite the opposite actually as he will have one of his good buddies to hang with in Carolina as well.

    I would say that Carolina views Aho as the face of the franchise and if he is indeed lobbying for a Jesse reunion maybe the Oilers and Hurricanes can both be happy with a trade shortly.

  101. Scungilli Slushy says:

    godot10: Duh…He was playing with a serious injury, one that meant he was experiencing pain whenever he engaged physically along the boards.A condition that the Oilers doctors had failed to diagnose in a timely matter.

    This is a germaine point. Another pre-Holland Oilers trait. Play chronically injured players until they can barely function, then blame them for it.

    A mature team would have looked at his struggles (not helping now, unhappy and uncomfortable) and convinced Jesse to take surgery immediately and get re-habbing for his ‘comeback’.

  102. Scungilli Slushy says:

    ArmchairGM: My question is: who’s going to move the puck up to the forwards? They are out 2 best blueliners defensively, but having them together for every D-zone faceoff (for instance) presupposes that we lose that faceoff, because neither guy is great at moving the puck to the forwards.

    I hope you’re surprised this season because what problems I saw with puck movement wasn’t that 3 out of every 4 Oiler players was a dufus.

    There were serious structural issues. All of these players played successfully before Oilers.

    Good coaching is a thing. Maybe I should say effective coaching.

  103. Reja says:

    Scungilli Slushy: This is a germaine point. Another pre-Holland Oilers trait. Play chronically injured players until they can barely function, then blame them for it.

    A mature team would have looked at his struggles (not helping now, unhappy and uncomfortable) and convinced Jesse to take surgery immediately and get re-habbing for his ‘comeback’.

    Players play hurt all the time in regular season waiting for offseason or playoff elimination before having surgery.

  104. Decidedly Skeptical Fan says:

    Reja: I would say that Carolina views Aho as the face of the franchise and if he is indeed lobbying for a Jesse reunion maybe the Oilers and Hurricanes can both be happy with a trade shortly.

    I would rather see Jesse exiled to Europe than receive a 3rd or 4th round magic bean and watch him become a star on the 1st line in Carolina … but that’s just me. I can be a vindictive son of a bitch when dealing with sniveling, entitled, manipulative little shits. We’ll see how this plays out with Ken, but really, there is absolutely no benefit to the Oil moving quickly to accommodate Jessie. Jesse is close to worthless at this point so it’s not as if you risk losing value if slow play this.

  105. Decidedly Skeptical Fan says:

    Scungilli Slushy: I hope you’re surprised this season because what problems I saw with puck movement wasn’t that 3 out of every 4 Oiler players was a dufus.

    There were serious structural issues. All of these players played successfully before Oilers.

    Good coaching is a thing. Maybe I should say effective coaching.

    Agree.

  106. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Being experienced is not the same as old school.

    Old school means sticking to outdated ideas, for example insisting on horse and carriage after it was obvious motors had taken over.

    The only things that have changed in NHL hockey is the cap, more obstruction calls, player litigation, and blue lines, in a long time.

    So being loyal, being a person that craves success and will gut themselves to find it, are what all pursuits of high stakes is based on. And many other lesser pursuits such as a paycheque.

    The world doesn’t really change as much in effect as it seems to. Same underpinnings no matter the Blackadder season we’re in.

  107. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Reja: Players play hurt all the time in regular season waiting for offseason or playoff elimination before having surgery.

    They do. I was saying Jesse was in basically the opposite position so why not get’er done. A reprieve.

  108. defmn says:

    Jethro Tull: We see this very differently. You brought up how Ken doesn’t feel pressure as he has hit pay dirt in money and term., Therefore, he has no obligation to do the best thing for the team because he fears no reprisal. No firing.I have him pegged as a person of integrity.

    No, you read it exactly backwards. I said he feels no pressure to make a move because he doesn’t need to worry about himself and is free to do what is best for the team.

  109. Reja says:

    Decidedly Skeptical Fan: I would rather see Jesse exiled to Europe than receive a 3rd or 4th round magic bean and watch him become a star on the 1st line in Carolina … but that’s just me. I can be a vindictive son of a bitch when dealing with sniveling, entitled, manipulative little shits. We’ll see how this plays out with Ken, but really, there is absolutely no benefit to the Oil moving quickly to accommodate Jessie. Jesse is close to worthless at this point so it’s not as if you risk losing value if slow play this.

    Holland is not going to trade Jesse unless it’s for what he deems value and best for the team. Another poster alluded to the fact that Hurricanes with Aho might seek him. Maybe Tampa will trade somebody with cap and open up a roster spot. The best Quality Jesse has going for him right now is that he can be had for cheap cap.

  110. Reja says:

    blackadder:
    By the end of last season, not only had Puljujarvi not gotten better, but you could easily make the case that he had regressed significantly.

    In his last few games with the Oilers he had no confidence with or without the puck, seemed hesitant most of the time leading to mistakes, and stopped shooting.

    Ken Holland has repeatedly spoken about players brought up from the minors too early.They’ll sometimes have short term success but after four or five weeks would see their confidence shot, and the player that was inevitably returned to the minors was a shadow of the player who had left.

    This, to me, is what happened with Puljujarvi.They couldn’t find a spot for him to succeed in the NHL and rather than moving him where he belonged, the AHL, they continued shunting him between lines and among teammates hoping that some sort of magical epiphany would arrive and he’d suddenly turn into the player almost all scouts predicted in 2016.

    You can call Puljujarvi entitled if you want, call him spoiled too.Maybe he could’ve done more.

    But this is, as far as I’m concerned, mostly on the Oilers, management and coaches.

    Question on a 1-year 1.2 million dollar contract who do you take Jesse, Chase, Kassian or Lucic if your the GM.

  111. OriginalPouzar says:

    jp: They made it work 2 years ago didn’t they? They did smashingly in a large, heavy minutes sample pretty much any way you want to assess it. If they can win those types of minutes again maybe this team has a chance.

    In 17/18, in over 800 minutes, they had positive possession across the board and 56% goal differential.

    Those would be top comp minutes.

    If I recall, they finished plus 10 and 15 on a negative ES team.

    Those are incredible numbers. There was a McDavid zoom as they fall below 50% without Connor but, in 300 minutes with Connor, they were over 70% GF.

    Larsson had a bad year last year. I think he was struggling mentally with his dad’s death.

    His bounce back this season is a key and I’m quite confident he will – we know how hard he was on himself for his play last year – he is a proud guy and he’ll very motivated to bring his A game.

  112. Reja says:

    Bag of Pucks:
    I thought Leon handled the question fine, and as diplomatically as the media scrum would allow.

    Most team oriented guys are going to look at this the same way. If you’re not wanting to be a part of the solution, then seeya-wouldn’t want to be ya.

    It’s fairly obvious both Leon and Connor loathe press avails. It is a tired dance. The press is probing and the players are ducking and once in a million, they get a non-cliche answer and social media blows up.

    Like Dave Chappelle said in his latest special, this is the worst time to be a celebrity. Not only are you under the microscope, but social justice warriors are constantly poised to pounce.

    Leon and Connor have been coached big time not to give some of these bloodsucking parasite media any openings. As a result we now have Robotic answers on every team because of these vermin.

  113. jp says:

    Klefbom – Nurse
    Jones – Larsson
    Russell – Benning

    pts2pndr: It is now accepted that there are advantages to players playing on their correct and or strong side. It would seem counter productive to have your top two pairings play their weak side with the second pairing having a rookie. I personally think the only way one could get worse would be to put the names in a hat and do a random draw.

    Only Nurse is off side in that lineup.

  114. OriginalPouzar says:

    DecidedlySkepticalFan: I would rather see Jesse exiled to Europe than receive a 3rd or 4th round magic bean and watch him become a star on the 1st line in Carolina … but that’s just me. I can be a vindictive son of a bitch when dealing with sniveling, entitled, manipulative little shits. We’ll see how this plays out with Ken, but really, there is absolutely no benefit to the Oil moving quickly to accommodate Jessie. Jesse is close to worthless at this point so it’s not as if you risk losing value if slow play this.

    I agree with most of this post re: no point in moving him with minimal return. No risk in having him play in Finland and seeing what happens. For me, it has nothing to do with Jesse’s apparent entitlement issues and being vindicative but solely what makes sense for the Oilers org going forward.

  115. Harpers Hair says:

    John Shannon the latest victim at Sportsnet.

  116. HT Joe says:

    Reja: Leon and Connor have been coached big time not to give some of these bloodsucking parasite media any openings. As a resultwe now have Robotic answers on every teambecause of these vermin.

    I’m annoyed that with all of this anti-Edmonton garbage from the Eastern media, why aren’t the local media working in jabs about how Matthews refused to sign max term, while Marner won’t even sign with the Leafs 😛

  117. Harpers Hair says:

    Decidedly Skeptical Fan: I would rather see Jesse exiled to Europe than receive a 3rd or 4th round magic bean and watch him become a star on the 1st line in Carolina … but that’s just me. I can be a vindictive son of a bitch when dealing with sniveling, entitled, manipulative little shits. We’ll see how this plays out with Ken, but really, there is absolutely no benefit to the Oil moving quickly to accommodate Jessie. Jesse is close to worthless at this point so it’s not as if you risk losing value if slow play this.

    Decidedly Skeptical Fan: I would rather see Jesse exiled to Europe than receive a 3rd or 4th round magic bean and watch him become a star on the 1st line in Carolina … but that’s just me. I can be a vindictive son of a bitch when dealing with sniveling, entitled, manipulative little shits. We’ll see how this plays out with Ken, but really, there is absolutely no benefit to the Oil moving quickly to accommodate Jessie. Jesse is close to worthless at this point so it’s not as if you risk losing value if slow play this.

    There is also no benefit in waiting.
    GM’s will remember his travails in Edmonton far more than they will recognize anything he accomplishes in Europe.
    If you can get a pick for him, you do it.
    It’s over.

  118. OriginalPouzar says:

    Listening to Gully on the Gregor Show and, while he said they do anticipate an adjustment period for Persson, he WILL be getting opportunities on the PP.

    This is really no surprise except to the extent that it sounds like he’s essentially an Oiler – he’s not “trying out” with the likes of Jones, Lagesson, etc.

  119. Decidedly Skeptical Fan says:

    Harpers Hair:
    There is also no benefit in waiting.
    GM’s will remember his travails in Edmonton far more than they will recognize anything he accomplishes in Europe.
    If you can get a pick for him, you do it.
    It’s over.

    I think there are several benefits to waiting in addition to what I posted. One other is that it sends a message to young players/agents that this is not an acceptable way of doing business … but if you are hell bent, here is the perfect blueprint for ruining an NHL career.

  120. v4ance says:

    Harpers Hair:
    John Shannon the latest victim at Sportsnet.

    I feel bad for him but the last time we had a change in the Oilers broadcast team we got Drew Remenda… Not expecting any improvement in analysis because they’ll just go with more Remenda to fill the dead air.

  121. jp says:

    Harpers Hair:
    There is also no benefit in waiting.
    GM’s will remember his travails in Edmonton far more than they will recognize anything he accomplishes in Europe.
    If you can get a pick for him, you do it.
    It’s over.

    That’s completely absurd. A good season in Finland will increase his value. And IF you can get a pick for him? Half the league has called. Come on.

  122. Scungilli Slushy says:

    Harpers Hair:
    John Shannon the latest victim at Sportsnet.

    So all of the odd blowhards are going? Maybe SN did some research. Jobs aren’t granted for life, especially in media. Be good at what you do, and provide quality work.

  123. CallighenMan says:

    OriginalPouzar: Yup, he needs to get back some value but that value isn’t available now and the player needs to play hockey in order to increase the value that can be received.

    They can hold on to him for 4 more years before he become a UFA.

    Of course he was qualified – if not, he would have been a UFA on July 1,

    Slepyshev was qualified as well

    Don’t they hold his rights until UFA age (27) as long as they tender a qualifying offer each year? (like they are still doing with Slepyshev)

  124. Harpers Hair says:

    jp: That’s completely absurd. A good season in Finland will increase his value. And IF you can get a pick for him? Half the league has called. Come on.

    No it’s not.
    Dallas had the same issue with Nichuskin.
    He went back to Russia for two years and returned with a two year contract.
    They had to buy him out to make him go away.
    Often, realizing a sunk cost is the best way to deal with screw ups.

  125. Scungilli Slushy says:

    OriginalPouzar:
    Listening to Gully on the Gregor Show and, while he said they do anticipate an adjustment period for Persson, he WILL be getting opportunities on the PP.

    This is really no surprise except to the extent that it sounds like he’s essentially an Oiler – he’s not “trying out” with the likes of Jones, Lagesson, etc.

    Gully is their coaching anchor line to the players given the changes. He should have been canned based on having the talent he had and a bland PP. Top half isn’t good enough.

    So now it’s that Nurse and Klef aren’t good enough? Persson of exactly 0 NHL games can do things they can’t per his comments?

    Complete BS, under bus throwing not that as Oiler fans we know anything about that, it’s a complete lack of creativity in planogram and using players to their massive PP skill sets.

    Holland will can him if he can’t make Connor Leon and Nuge a top PP in the league, as he should. Honestly how hard is that to do given forwards score the most?

    A last vestige of meh. We hope.

  126. Harpers Hair says:

    Scungilli Slushy: So all of the odd blowhards are going? Maybe SN did some research. Jobs aren’t granted for life, especially in media. Be good at what you do, and provide quality work.

    Scungilli Slushy: So all of the odd blowhards are going? Maybe SN did some research. Jobs aren’t granted for life, especially in media. Be good at what you do, and provide quality work.

    Will be interesting to see who the replacements are.
    It seems Rogers is booting anyone who makes too much coin.

  127. hunter1909 says:

    Hunter1909’s Official 2019-20 Death March™ is coming!…

    Book opens September 1st(anniversary of the start of WW2) and runs until the opening face off of the 2019-20 season.

  128. jp says:

    Harpers Hair: No it’s not.
    Dallas had the same issue with Nichuskin.
    He went back to Russia for two years and returned with a two year contract.
    They had to buy him out to make him go away.
    Often, realizing a sunk cost is the best way to deal with screw ups.

    Puljujarvi is not Nichushkin.
    If he scores .5 PPG in Finland this year then don’t give him a 2 year deal.
    If realizing a sunk cost returns a 3rd (while holding has no negative consequence) then what’s the rush?

  129. Harpers Hair says:

    Decidedly Skeptical Fan: I think there are several benefits to waiting in addition to what I posted. One other is that it sends a message to young players/agents that this is not an acceptable way of doing business … but if you are hell bent, here is the perfect blueprint for ruining an NHL career.

    A pyrrhic victory.
    No one will remember or care.

  130. OriginalPouzar says:

    CallighenMan: Don’t they hold his rights until UFA age (27) as long as they tender a qualifying offer each year? (like they are still doing with Slepyshev)

    Yes, they hold his rights until UFA status but he’s already vested 3 years.

    Remember, the was on the roster for 40 games (EXACTLY 40 games) in his first year which vested a year towards UFA status.

    He’ll be a UFA at 25 I believe.

  131. jp says:

    Scungilli Slushy: Gully is their coaching anchor line to the players given the changes. He should have been canned based on having the talent he had and a bland PP. Top half isn’t good enough.

    They were 7th in GF/60. Top quarter.

    Also, many teams have 5 good players to put on their PP, a luxury not available to the Oilers.

  132. OriginalPouzar says:

    ScungilliSlushy: Gully is their coaching anchor line to the players given the changes. He should have been canned based on having the talent he had and a bland PP. Top half isn’t good enough.

    So now it’s that Nurse and Klef aren’t good enough? Persson of exactly 0 NHL games can do things they can’t per hiscomments?

    Complete BS, under bus throwing not that as Oiler fans we know anything about that, it’s a complete lack of creativity in planogram and using players to their massive PP skill sets.

    Holland will can him if he can’t make Connor Leon and Nuge a top PP in the league, as he should. Honestly how hard is that to do given forwards score the most?

    A last vestige of meh. We hope.

    They were top third in the NHL – quite the improvement from being 31st the year before, no?

    I would agree that Nurse and Klefbom aren’t ideal on the PP – neither of them have plus back end PP skills.

    One of the main reasons Persson was signed was his PP skills – its his best skill. I would hope he gets his at bat – if not, there was no reason to sign him.

  133. jp says:

    OriginalPouzar: Yes, they hold his rights until UFA status but he’s already vested 3 years.

    Remember, the was on the roster for 40 games (EXACTLY 40 games) in his first year which vested a year towards UFA status.

    He’ll be a UFA at 25 I believe.

    Just checked on Capfriendly. He’s on the Oilers reserve list, and under “must sign by” is says “27 Y.O. birthday”.

    Now that I think about it, he needs to play in the NHL each season to get to UFA at 25, right? If that’s right it’s another reason why Holland can remain patient.

  134. Munny says:

    jp,

    My understanding also is that if he does not play, he’s not UFA till the 27 clause vests.

  135. Munny says:

    defmn: Does that make it clearer? Getting a 10 cent on the dollar return is not going to move the dial for the team. Patience might. Therefore I go with patience and I think Holland has as well. He has set a price which values Jesse above current market value thereby telling Jesse that he is valued while ensuring that offers either improve or no trade happens.

    Nailed it. Holland has set his price, and the other GMs are well aware of it, Good prospect and a 2nd rounder is the media speculation. Either meet the price (before someone else does) or he stays in Finland.

  136. Munny says:

    OriginalPouzar: Strong down arrows for Jesse right now but he accomplished much more in the AHL at 18 than Guathier has at 21, Jesse is a full year younger and higher pedigree.
    0.5 PPG in the AHL in the 21 year old season is middling.

    But OTOH top 20 in the AHL in goal-scoring is not middling. Passers we gots. And Holland wants a pick on top of Gauthier.

  137. Munny says:

    Harpers Hair: Will be interesting to see who the replacements are.
    It seems Rogers is booting anyone who makes too much coin.

    My take also. Happened in American sports media a couple of years ago. Did not help right the viewer ship there though.

  138. Munny says:

    Reja: Question on a 1-year 1.2 million dollar contract who do you take Jesse, Chase, Kassian or Lucic if your the GM.

    Jesse based on age. Kassian otherwise.

  139. JimmyV1965 says:

    Jethro Tull: We see this very differently. You brought up how Ken doesn’t feel pressure as he has hit pay dirt in money and term., Therefore, he has no obligation to do the best thing for the team because he fears no reprisal. No firing.I have him pegged as a person of integrity.

    I can see merit in Jesse playing hockey until a resolution is in place.I see value in the “out clause” up until December.I do NOT see value in him playing in Finland after his troubles with a) NA language b) NA culture c) Ice surface size d) bonding with team mates. e) keeping his mouth shut.

    Honest answer: If you, as a GM, looking at taking a flyer on Jesse, give up a good prospect and a high pick on him between now and December when you know all you have to do is wait?Because let’s call Jesse what he is: A reclamation project.Who’s fault it is is now immaterial. He’d be a player that would be nice to have as depth, not a must have.

    If I’m a GM today I wouldn’t give up an early second rounder for JP. I Might do a late second rounder. Maybe. But if I’m Holland I wait until we see how things develop in Europe. There’s absolutely no rush to trade the kid today. If Jesse doesn’t play well in Europe, I lose basically a third round pick. I can easily live with that. If he does play well, then maybe the price increases to a late first rounder. Or maybe JP decides to come back home.

  140. jp says:

    Munny: Jesse based on age. Kassian otherwise.

    I would take Kassian over Puljujarvi for the 2019-20 season.

  141. Harpers Hair says:

    Munny: My take also.Happened in American sports media a couple of years ago.Did not help right the viewer ship there though.

    Cant imagine who the new faces will be.
    Burke, McLean, Cherry and Friedman are pretty thin gruel.

  142. Harpers Hair says:

    Munny: Nailed it.Holland has set his price, and the other GMs are well aware of it,Good prospect and a 2nd rounder is the media speculation. Either meet the price (before someone else does) or he stays in Finland.

    Munny: Nailed it.Holland has set his price, and the other GMs are well aware of it,Good prospect and a 2nd rounder is the media speculation. Either meet the price (before someone else does) or he stays in Finland.

    Yep.

    And that’ll be the end of it.

  143. godot10 says:

    OriginalPouzar: Yes, they hold his rights until UFA status but he’s already vested 3 years.

    Remember, the was on the roster for 40 games (EXACTLY 40 games) in his first year which vested a year towards UFA status.

    He’ll be a UFA at 25 I believe.

    He is not vesting any years if he plays in Europe. Which is why it is in his best interest to sign the QO at some point, and hope he ends up on waivers.

  144. jp says:

    Munny: But OTOH top 20 in the AHL in goal-scoring is not middling.Passers we gots.And Holland wants a pick on top of Gauthier.

    It’s not, but it looks like he was a 2nd liner on his AHL squad in his 2nd pro year.

    Gauthier is most of a year older than Puljujarvi. Puljujarvi’s AHL point scoring rates are much higher, with most of his games coming at age 18. Their AHL goal scoring rates are almost identical (again with Puljujarvi mostly at 18, Gaultier at 20 and 21).

    Puljujarvi’s also played 139 NHL games. He scored 12 goals at age 19.
    The complete list of 19 year olds to score 12 goals in a season since 1979 is: Nic Antropov, Stan Chistov, Russ Courtnall, Miro Heiskanen, Tyson Jost, Mark Messier, Jesse Puljujarvi, Jordan Staal, John Tucker and Justin Williams.

    We’ve seen too much of him struggling at the NHL level, but I’m not sure what objective measure one could use to claim Gaultier as near equal value to Puljujarvi.

    This isn’t all directed particularly at you by the way, rather to the conversation about Jesse’s value more generally.

  145. Munny says:

    Missed this rumour from Tuesday:

    Kurt Leavins‏ @KurtLeavins · Aug 27

    In fact: It wouldn’t surprise me if Ken Holland signed C Riley Sheahan in the next few days, versus offering him a PTO. We’ll see…

  146. Reja says:

    Munny: Jesse based on age. Kassian otherwise.

    Remember it’s a one year contract all of them for 1.2 and you think Jesse gives you the best chance to make the playoffs and win the cup. In my best Ace Ventura voice “Really”!

  147. Munny says:

    jp: It’s not, but it looks like he was a 2nd liner on his AHL squad in his 2nd pro year.

    That’s the way it looked to me too. Maybe net-front on PP1.

    Gauthier isn’t enough for Pujo, no doubt. But Gauthier and a 2nd is pretty fair, when there’s no decent one-for-one out there.

    Holland needs a bidding war ideally, and it only takes two, but obviously other GMs aren’t exactly driven to acquire a player who could potentially be more problem than producer.

  148. Munny says:

    Reja,

    I presumed I would have the opportunity to re-sign the player. Had no idea they self-destructed like Ethan Hunt’s glasses at the end of the season, lol. But suspected you had a out-clause, hence my stipulation of Kassian if “age” wasn’t allowed to be a factor. Jeez, man, pay attention. 😉

  149. jp says:

    Munny: But OTOH top 20 in the AHL in goal-scoring is not middling.Passers we gots.And Holland wants a pick on top of Gauthier.

    Looked at another way, Pronman lists Gaultier as a “legit NHL prospect”. On the Oilers the “legit prospects” are Jones, McLeod, Marody, Konovalov and Maksimov.

    I’m trying to place myself as another GM and ask whether a player with Puljujarvi’s draft pedigree, pro experience/success (relative to age) and also his warts, might be worth one of those Oiler prospects and a 2nd.

    The answer is clearly no given that a deal isn’t done, but I don’t think it’s that far off.

    Puljujarvi still has a chance to be a good NHLer IMO. I wouldn’t part ways with him for just a 2nd or just a Gaultier level prospect.

  150. jp says:

    Munny:
    Missed this rumour from Tuesday:

    Kurt Leavins‏ @KurtLeavins · Aug 27

    In fact: It wouldn’t surprise me if Ken Holland signed C Riley Sheahan in the next few days, versus offering him a PTO. We’ll see…

    I really hope we see this. I guess 3C isn’t the biggest hole on the roster, but it may be the most unnecessary given the price tag require to fill it.

  151. JimmyV1965 says:

    Harpers Hair:
    There is also no benefit in waiting.
    GM’s will remember his travails in Edmonton far more than they will recognize anything he accomplishes in Europe.
    If you can get a pick for him, you do it.
    It’s over.

    GMs have a short memory. If JP lights it up in Europe, there will be plenty of suitors. Trading him now makes zero sense. Also, JP can still change his mind and return to Edmonton. It wouldn’t be the first time a 21 year old changes his mind.

  152. Munny says:

    jp: Looked at another way, Pronman lists Gaultier as a “legit NHL prospect”. On the Oilers the “legit prospects” are Jones, McLeod, Marody, Konovalov and Maksimov.

    I haven’t read his list… had no idea Benson didn’t make it. Or Broberg (pre-draft, Pronman was pretty high on Broberg). Or Samorukov, although I’m more okay with that omission.

    jp: I’m trying to place myself as another GM and ask whether a player with Puljujarvi’s draft pedigree, pro experience/success (relative to age) and also his warts, might be worth one of those Oiler prospects and a 2nd.

    The answer is clearly no given that a deal isn’t done, but I don’t think it’s that far off.

    I agree. The legit prospect and a 3rd might be where it ends up.

  153. JimmyV1965 says:

    Harpers Hair: No it’s not.
    Dallas had the same issue with Nichuskin.
    He went back to Russia for two years and returned with a two year contract.
    They had to buy him out to make him go away.
    Often, realizing a sunk cost is the best way to deal with screw ups.

    If JP goes to Europe and puts up thoroughly mediocre numbers then it’s getting closer to the Nichushkin situation. He hasn’t done that yet. If JP puts up meh numbers in Europe and then we sign him to a $3 mill deal I will not be happy. Right now there is no comparison with N.

  154. Reja says:

    Harpers Hair: Cant imagine who the new faces will be.
    Burke, McLean, Cherry and Friedman are pretty thin gruel.

    Hazel Mae.

  155. Munny says:

    JimmyV1965: Trading him now makes zero sense.

    This isn’t exactly true IMO. If Holland’s ask gets,bid, he should take it. There’s some risk to the Oilers in Jesse playing in Finland: poor performance, injury, preferring Europe…

  156. Jethro Tull says:

    So we’re agreed:

    If JP tears it up in a substandard league against substandard player (comparative to even 4th line NHL players), his value magically increases to the point where a GM must simply have him or die, instead of waiting until the Oilers have to sit him for an entire year. Which no doubt will improve his already lofty opinion of the organization.

    If anyone wanted him that much, he’d be gone by now. Wasn’t he and his agent given permission to find their own trade? Which Ken nixed by raising the ante. And JP double nixed by shooting mouth off.

    JP reminds me of a Brazilian beach soccer player. All the individual skills, but couldn’t play a structured game if their life depended on it.

  157. Reja says:

    HT Joe: I’m annoyed that with all of this anti-Edmonton garbage from the Eastern media, why aren’t the local media working in jabs about how Matthews refused to sign max term, while Marner won’t even sign with the Leafs

    Because Toronto is the bully on the block you piss them off and you might find yourself selling vacuums door to door in Goose Bay.

  158. jp says:

    Munny: I haven’t read his list… had no idea Benson didn’t make it. Or Broberg (pre-draft, Pronman was pretty high on Broberg). Or Samorukov, although I’m more okay with that omission.

    I agree. The legit prospect and a 3rd might be where it ends up.

    All the guys you list were ranked higher, I just included the ones in the same tier as Gaultier (Broberg was #1 for the Oilers “High-end NHL prospect”, Samorukov #3 and Benson #4 “Very good NHL prospects”). Jones to Maksimov were #7-11 for the Oilers, Gaultier #6 for the Canes.

    Yes, that could well be the return.

  159. Reja says:

    jp: I really hope we see this. I guess 3C isn’t the biggest hole on the roster, but it may be the most unnecessary given the price tag require to fill it.

    Good on the dot not great on the PK. I’m still hoping for a true shutdown 3rd line that can Pk.

  160. Reja says:

    Jethro Tull:
    So we’re agreed:

    If JP tears it up in a substandard league against substandard player (comparative to even 4th line NHL players), his value magically increases to the point where a GM must simply have him or die, instead of waiting until the Oilers have to sit him for an entire year. Which no doubt will improve his already lofty opinion of the organization.

    If anyone wanted him that much, he’d be gone by now. Wasn’t he and his agent given permission to find their own trade? Which Ken nixed by raising the ante. And JP double nixed by shooting mouth off.

    JP reminds me of a Brazilian beach soccer player. All the individual skills, but couldn’t play a structured game if their life depended on it.

    You never know if a team runs into a rash of injuries early on I think Jesse comes into play for the price Holland is asking.

  161. jp says:

    Reja: Good on the dot not great on the PK. I’m still hoping for a true shutdown 3rd line that can Pk.

    What do you mean? He’s 23rd in the league in PK GA/60 over the past 3 years. He was 11th this past year. His underlying numbers aren’t quite that good, but above average by almost every measure. Sold?

  162. jp says:

    Reja: You never know if a team runs into a rash of injuries early on I think Jesse comes into play for the price Holland is asking.

    Hopefully.

  163. Munny says:

    Jethro Tull,

    JP’s performance to mid-November will have less bearing on the situation than the needs of NHL teams will, particularly injury or age cliffs or other roster issues.

    There apparently has been legitimate interest in Pujo already, by multiple teams, if we can trust the reports. So there is some competition for acquiring the asset. The traditional game of chicken Is underway. Obviously early season might generate some factors which increase the competition, ie the needs of other GMs.

    The price that gets paid will depend on that competition, and on Holland’s willingness to bend his ask depending on what the market has been showing him.

    If the bids fall well short of what he wants, there’s no reason why Holland can’t sit it out till next summer and see what the market says then, or see if the mercurial 21 yo changes his mind. Because at that low present bid, the risk of waiting is decreased.

    But you know all this. I don’t recall Olive Oil ever being this cynical towards this blogosphere…

    :-p

  164. Munny says:

    jp: All the guys you list were ranked higher, I just included the ones in the same tier as Gaultier (Broberg was #1 for the Oilers “High-end NHL prospect”, Samorukov #3 and Benson #4 “Very good NHL prospects”). Jones to Maksimov were #7-11 for the Oilers, Gaultier #6 for the Canes.

    Yes, that could well be the return.

    Thx, was wondering how the hell McLeod could be legit but Benson not.

  165. Reja says:

    jp: What do you mean? He’s 23rd in the league in PK GA/60 over the past 3 years. He was 11th this past year. His underlying numbers aren’t quite that good, but above average by almost every measure. Sold?

    Thanks for correcting me. I don’t know much about Riley and I read a article last week that wrote that his below average PK skills were one of the reasons no one has signed him.

  166. HT Joe says:

    Reja: You never know if a team runs into a rash of injuries early on I think Jesse comes into play for the price Holland is asking.

    The Oilers were shockingly healthy last year… they seem “due” this season. :/

  167. Professor Q says:

    JimmyV1965: If JP goes to Europe and puts up thoroughly mediocre numbers then it’s getting closer to the Nichushkin situation. He hasn’t done that yet. If JP puts up meh numbers in Europe and then we sign him to a $3 mill deal I will not be happy.Right now there is no comparison with N.

    Why would we sign him to a $3 million dollar contract that isn’t multiple years ($3 million being the total)? Hollandaise are here. ChiaPet is gone.

  168. jp says:

    Reja: Thanks for correcting me. I don’t know much about Riley and I read a article last week that wrote thathis below average PK skills were one of the reasons no one has signed him.

    I can’t find any statistic that suggests he’s below average. But you know, sometimes what’s written doesn’t reflect reality.

  169. ArmchairGM says:

    OriginalPouzar: My only hesitation is that its imperative that the Oilers get a clean disposition of Russell before July 2020 – we need that $4M and, if the player is in and out of the lineup, he isn’t going to be tradeable without retention.

    Why “before July 2020”? I understand that his $1M bonus gets paid in July, meaning he’ll be MUCH easier to move after that has vested as he has just $1.5M in salary for the final year.

  170. ArmchairGM says:

    pts2pndr: It is now accepted that there are advantages to players playing on their correct and or strong side. It would seem counter productive to have your top two pairings play their weak side with the second pairing having a rookie. I personally think the only way one could get worse would be to put the names in a hat and do a random draw.

    What are you on about? Only Nurse is on his off-side. I thought the pairings were interesting – the 2 best defensemen on the 1st pairing, a workable 2nd pairing (at least on paper) and a veteran 3rd pair.

  171. ArmchairGM says:

    Scungilli Slushy: Holland doesn’t need to do anything now.

    He can give him away next year for nothing, but maybe Jesse tears the cover off and he gets something good.

    I wouldn’t trade him for nothing now either, particularly since he’s been given every opportunity for a clean start in Edmonton.

    Agree 100% with this.

  172. ArmchairGM says:

    OriginalPouzar: While more unlikely, a trade could still be realistically worked out with both teams having a view to the future – picks and non-roster players. Maybe a team was to shed a contract on the 50 for another move but still get a solid asset?

    Of course its possible. Its also possible to trade players after the deadline, but it never seems to happen.

    The only way I see JP traded is in late November if he gets off to a hot start and there’s an NHL team with aspirations that gets off to a slow start and / or sustains a significant injury to a key forward. At this point I think teams are mainly looking to TC and pre-season now, with only their RFA re-signings on the radar. GM’s will continue to poke around for deals, but I don’t see anybody paying Ken’s price until they can have their scouts watch JP in action.

  173. rickithebear says:

    jp: They were 7th in GF/60. Top quarter.

    Also, many teams have 5 good players to put on their PP, a luxury not available to the Oilers.

    Good point!

    Why 5 fwds.
    Other than for injury!

    Ovechkin gets 4:25/ GP

    You would expect to 40 players to get as much PPTOI as possible.
    We already know Drai, Mcd, RNH, Chiasson we’re top 42 ppg scorers.

    PPGF/60 rank; PPTOI/GP rank.
    Chiasson #21 Fwd 9.72 PPGF/60; #86 fwd 2:37
    Draisaitl #25 fwd 9.62; #30 fwd 3:20
    Mcdavid #31 fwd 9.43; #21 fwd 3:25
    RNH #37 fwd 9:25; #38 fwd 3:14

    These players not getting 4:00+ per gm is inexcusable.

    And Chaisson 2:37 and top 42 ppg scorer.
    Could you imagine 4:00+ he ends up being #12 12 ppg – #10 13 ppg fwd.

    I have said in the past it is 3 times easier to generate ppg than evg.
    This year 7.21/2.64= 2.73 times easier.
    So give as much PPTOI to your top 4 producing fwds.

    Why would you want other options.
    Taking PPTOI to give to inferior producing players so coaches can feel they have some important input is a fools game.

    Remember what D. Sutter said to me.
    We are turning them into fucking Robots.

    What he was feeling is he was getting less input.
    Amen to that.
    When it comes to unit and structure effectiveness.

    That is why Draisaitl getting
    Top 45 per position LW/RW 1000 Ev min (68.3%) as primary winger with Mcdavid
    And
    Draisaitl for 490 ev min (49.5%) as primary 3C is smart usage.

    Playfair saying Nurse – Larsson
    Nurse and Larsson scares me.
    But if nurse is restricted in his walk about.
    Nurse – Larsson
    17-18 840:13 1.86 evga/60
    Dramatically +ve Goal diff relative to season median.
    In screen when HD area is visible Mr. Nurse.

  174. jp says:

    rickithebear,

    I said 5 good players because the Oilers only have 3 very good ones by my count.

    You’re right that Chiasson was good last year. Hopefully he can keep it up though I have some doubt given his lack of success/opportunity before last season.

    And Nurse-Larsson, I’m hopeful they can do what they did in 17-18.

  175. ArmchairGM says:

    jp: You’re right that Chiasson was good last year. Hopefully he can keep it up though I have some doubt given his lack of success/opportunity before last season.

    Chiasson scored at a 4th line pace last year, despite playing significant minutes in the top-6. That’s not good.

  176. jp says:

    ArmchairGM: Chiasson scored at a 4th line pace last year, despite playing significant minutes in the top-6. That’s not good.

    Good on the PP. Goals and goal rates were both top 50 in the league.

  177. CallighenMan says:

    Harpers Hair: A pyrrhic victory.
    No one will remember or care.

    Like any Canucks season, eh?

  178. Ryan says:

    ArmchairGM: Chiasson scored at a 4th line pace last year, despite playing significant minutes in the top-6. That’s not good.

    Agreed. It’s a big problem.

    jp: Good on the PP. Goals and goal rates were both top 50 in the league.

    He shot 17.9%.

    He’s a career 12.7% shooter.

  179. CallighenMan says:

    OriginalPouzar: Yes, they hold his rights until UFA status but he’s already vested 3 years.

    Remember, the was on the roster for 40 games (EXACTLY 40 games) in his first year which vested a year towards UFA status.

    He’ll be a UFA at 25 I believe.

    ok, thanks. So 4 or 5 more years. JP is not being very smart about this…

  180. Side says:

    Jethro Tull:
    So we’re agreed:

    If JP tears it up in a substandard league against substandard player (comparative to even 4th line NHL players), his value magically increases to the point where a GM must simply have him or die, instead of waiting until the Oilers have to sit him for an entire year. Which no doubt will improve his already lofty opinion of the organization.

    If anyone wanted him that much, he’d be gone by now. Wasn’t he and his agent given permission to find their own trade? Which Ken nixed by raising the ante. And JP double nixed by shooting mouth off.

    JP reminds me of a Brazilian beach soccer player. All the individual skills, but couldn’t play a structured game if their life depended on it.

    Jesse has been on the shelf due to having both of his hips replaced. If Jesse performs well in the league and his hips aren’t bothering him, that should help increase his value in that fact alone. No magic required.

  181. CallighenMan says:

    Munny:
    jp,

    My understanding also is that if he does not play, he’s not UFA till the 27 clause vests.

    Ah, that’s where I was getting it from (old age in action, here). Thanks jp, munny!

  182. CallighenMan says:

    Munny:
    jp,

    My understanding also is that if he does not play, he’s not UFA till the 27 clause vests.

    Ah, that’s where I was getting it from (old age in action, here). Thanks jp, munny!

    jp: Looked at another way, Pronman lists Gaultier as a “legit NHL prospect”. On the Oilers the “legit prospects” are Jones, McLeod, Marody, Konovalov and Maksimov.

    I’m trying to place myself as another GM and ask whether a player with Puljujarvi’s draft pedigree, pro experience/success (relative to age) and also his warts, might be worth one of those Oiler prospects and a 2nd.

    The answer is clearly no given that a deal isn’t done, but I don’t think it’s that far off.

    Puljujarvi still has a chance to be a good NHLer IMO. I wouldn’t part ways with him for just a 2nd or just a Gaultier level prospect.

    He is probably excluding Pulujarvi because he is not signed.

  183. Jethro Tull says:

    Munny,

    I think my recent cynicism comes from a bit of some talking out both sides of the mouth (or typing with one finger from both hands?).

    We’re a numbers based blog. Our glorious host (may he never get carpal tunnel) has said this many times. We have numbers on Jesse in the NHL against good players. He’s not that good. We then choose to ignore this because we’ve fallen in love with the idea of Jesse’s potential.

    I just think it’s pretty arrogant to pick and choose when we give these numbers weight in supporting our arguments. The data is the data and it doesn’t care if you like it or not.

    I also think it’s the height of arrogance to assume we’re the only place that knows and values these numbers.

    Still, taking the new bike downhilling today, and it’s glorious.

    Have a good one everyone.

  184. CallighenMan says:

    Munny: I haven’t read his list… had no idea Benson didn’t make it. Or Broberg (pre-draft, Pronman was pretty high on Broberg). Or Samorukov, although I’m more okay with that omission.

    I agree. The legit prospect and a 3rd might be where it ends up.

    Benson and Broberg were listed at a higher rank, something like “very good prospect”, if I recall correctly.

  185. ArmchairGM says:

    jp: Good on the PP. Goals and goal rates were both top 50 in the league.

    Long may it last. In 16-17, Letestu was 4th in the league in PP G/60 with 3.72, which is miles better than Chiasson’s 2.51 and 39th overall finish. The following year it was down to 1.31. I’m not expecting Chiasson to repeat his career year again, ever.

  186. Jaxon says:

    I think I’d be okay with something like a Gauthier and Fensore trade with Carolina for Puljujarvi right now. Not sure they could get more.

  187. jp says:

    Ryan:

    He shot 17.9%.

    He’s a career 12.7% shooter.

    I fully agree. I thought I’d sufficiently indicated my skepticism.

  188. CallighenMan says:

    Jethro Tull:
    So we’re agreed:

    If JP tears it up in a substandard league against substandard player (comparative to even 4th line NHL players), his value magically increases to the point where a GM must simply have him or die, instead of waiting until the Oilers have to sit him for an entire year. Which no doubt will improve his already lofty opinion of the organization.

    If anyone wanted him that much, he’d be gone by now. Wasn’t he and his agent given permission to find their own trade? Which Ken nixed by raising the ante. And JP double nixed by shooting mouth off.

    JP reminds me of a Brazilian beach soccer player. All the individual skills, but couldn’t play a structured game if their life depended on it.

    I don’t think Holland “upped” any ante. Whatever deal Lehto was able to find (if any), just didn’t meet Ken’s idea of fair value that would help the team. That is what he has been looking for according to his own words.

  189. CallighenMan says:

    jp: All the guys you list were ranked higher, I just included the ones in the same tier as Gaultier (Broberg was #1 for the Oilers “High-end NHL prospect”, Samorukov #3 and Benson #4 “Very good NHL prospects”). Jones to Maksimov were #7-11 for the Oilers, Gaultier #6 for the Canes.

    Yes, that could well be the return.

    oops, missed this reply before mine. Sorry! ☺️

  190. jp says:

    ArmchairGM: Long may it last. In 16-17, Letestu was 4th in the league in PP G/60 with 3.72, which is miles better than Chiasson’s 2.51 and 39th overall finish. The following year it was down to 1.31. I’m not expecting Chiasson to repeat his career year again, ever.

    I fully agree, neither do I.

    I didn’t include him in my ‘3 good PP players’, but it’s a fact that he scored well last year.

  191. Jethro Tull says:

    Side: Jesse has been on the shelf due to having both of his hips replaced. If Jesse performs well in the league and his hips aren’t bothering him, that should help increase his value in that fact alone. No magic required.

    I don’t know if I’m buying the injury angle. It’s an easy out – all the three, JP, his agent and the Oilers could have pinned a lot of issues on it and saved a lot of face. And the out wasn’t taken by any of them.

    Either the Oilers knew and didn’t tell the other two, or Jesse knew and didn’t tell. And the agent poured on gasoline instead of Aloe.

    I think the Oilers got Oilered and people can’t believe it.

  192. Jethro Tull says:

    CallighenMan: I don’t think Holland “upped” any ante.Whatever deal Lehto was able to find (if any), just didn’t meet Ken’s idea of fair value that would help the team.That is what he has been looking for according to his own words.

    Then Ken’s delusional if he thinks that price is fair value and JP can attain it by dominating Z list players.

  193. ArmchairGM says:

    jp: Good on the PP. Goals and goal rates were both top 50 in the league.

    Ryan: Agreed. It’s a big problem.

    He shot 17.9%.

    He’s a career 12.7% shooter.

    His PP shooting percentage prior to 18-19 was 11.71%, last year it was more than double that at 23.53%. Expect regression to the meat, although the team clearly isn’t what with a rich, 2-year deal.

  194. ArmchairGM says:

    CallighenMan:
    He is probably excluding Pulujarvi because he is not signed.

    He excluded JP because he isn’t a prospect anymore, he has played more than 50 NHL games. He does mention JP here:

    Organizational Top 10 (23 and Under)
    1. Connor McDavid, C (22)
    2. Leon Draisaitl, C (23)
    3. Philip Broberg, D (18)
    4. Evan Bouchard, D (19)
    5. Jesse Puljujarvi, RW (21)
    6. Dmitri Samorukov, D (20)
    7. Tyler Benson, LW (21)
    8. Raphael Lavoie, RW (18)
    9. Kailer Yamamoto, RW (20)
    10. Caleb Jones, D (22)

    He also wrote:

    “Puljujarvi, who signed in Finland with an NHL out, is one of the most debated players in the league in terms of public discourse and in the scouting community – everyone has a theory as to what he is and how it got to this point. On the one hand, he only turned 21 in May and a lot of good (albeit not top) prospects have barely cracked the league by that age. For that reason, I’m not willing to stamp a bust tag on a guy with his talent. But realistically speaking, he’s likely not going to be an above-average NHL player. You hope with his size, speed and skill you can squeeze a useful regular contributor out of that.”

  195. CallighenMan says:

    Side: Jesse has been on the shelf due to having both of his hips replaced. If Jesse performs well in the league and his hips aren’t bothering him, that should help increase his value in that fact alone. No magic required.

    LOL, He’s not 70!!! He had some bone spurs or something similar repaired, NOT hips replaced !!!

  196. CallighenMan says:

    Jethro Tull: Then Ken’s delusional if he thinks that price is fair value and JP can attain it by dominating Z list players.

    Disagreed. JP is still very young and even when being jerked around by idiot coaches he still “held his own”. He still has big upside and as such Ken is right to not undervalue him, in my opinion.

  197. jp says:

    ArmchairGM:
    His PP shooting percentage prior to 18-19 was 11.71%, last year it was more than double that at 23.53%. Expect regression to the meat, although the team clearly isn’t what with a rich, 2-year deal.

    Calling it a rich deal is rich.

    It was less than 60% of projected value, no? It pays him below average for a 3rd liner (#233 among forwards, with players still to sign).

    Sure, me still might not cover it but geez.

  198. OriginalPouzar says:

    Both Skellefteå and Karpat play this morning – at 11am I think.

    Suppsoably to be shown on TSN GO and streamed on the Champions Hockey League website.

    Jesse is slotted for 1RW on Karpat.

    I don’t know where Broberg is playing but in 2 of the 3 exhibition games, he was paired with Berglund and excelled. Hopefully the same continues in some “real games” now.

    How exciting!

  199. TheFinn60 says:

    Jesse had a 2 point game, 1+1. Have not been able to watch any of the game though so cant’t really say much more then, two points are two points. Do not think his game has improved, like a 100 times, but maybe he is “mentally” at a better plage and the “big ice” help his game. Might also be that he is healthier now after his hip surgery. Lets what comes down the road, good result for Jesse and good for Edmonton as of now.

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